One thing I want to address because I see this argument (and was worried that I conveyed it this way): My argument is NOT "Rivals 2 is bad because it's not rivals 1." My argument is that the new mechanics introduced in rivals 2 don't make up for what was lost in the transition. The characters do not feel like they were built for the changes that were made, and the new specials are largely uninteresting. I would LOVE for the game to provide more to differentiate itself FROM rivals 1, but i think the characters are largely inseparable from how they were before. For example, if you look at Guilty Gear, Xrd Ky and Strive Ky are almost entirely different characters. But as a casual player, the differences between the characters feel a lot more minimal here in comparison.
Honestly, that take is way way worse than the “it’s not Rivals 1 and that makes me sad” take. You’re essentially arguing that the game just doesn’t work, which is flat out wrong based on the fact that everyone that isn’t a Rivals 1 diehard is eating this game up. You’re allowed to be sad that it’s not more like Rivals 1. It’s a different video game, and you liked the old one more. You can still play Rivals 1, though, and if other people feel the same way as you it’ll maintain an active playerbase.
You entered the game with the expectation that it would be like Rivals 1, and so you tried to play it like Rivals 1. When that didn’t work, instead of learning the new game you made a youtube rantsona video about how the new game is a bad sequel. Your gameplay footage is complete garbage and it’s telling from it how much you have the game a chance on its own merits. Just own the fact that you miss Rivals 1 gameplay. I personally think Rivals 1 feels too frantic and spammy (careful spacing isnt really rewarded at midlevel play). It’s just a matter of opinion.
@@dragonmonitor 1) It isn't a rantsona. 2) I agree. I have the same problem with Dreams being Dreams and not LittleBigPlanet: I memorized tutorials and just didn't pick up Dreams right away or maybe even at all despite them being similar. 3) Directional Alteration is not 'impossible' to implement. A 3D version/hybrid of controls from Your Only Move is Hustle and Minecraft with some tweaks so it is Intellectual-Property-Ready is... alien... but not impossible. 4) No one should alienate anyone. Everything has an 'entry fee'. and 5) You shouldn't like a game for its Day 1 inexperienced player abundance curve if your logic is Zetta shouldn't like a game for its Day 1 inexperienced player abundance curve. To say otherwise is to say 'Oh, I like Halo 2 because of the Day 1 losers I could verse.' or something to that effect. (I understand if all 5 bullet points miss and aren't at all what you mean. I'm just covering the bases.)
Instead of doubling down you should delete this video and apologize for insulting the devs who are clearly trying their best and raining on the parade of people who are actually excited for the game. Also, if you say the reason you don't like Rivals 2 *isn't* because it's not Rivals 1, then why did you make an 18 minute video explaining why the sequel is inferior to the original?
Most powerful smash heavy: "I am either a joke or I make the world an actively worse place via my existence." Least powerful Rivals heavy: "I invoke legitimate fear and actually justify myself being a giant character that gets hit alot."
2 things I want to bring up: 1) There is a window after being grabbed that prevents you from being grabbed again. Normal pummel removes this window which allows characters to chain grab with certain throws making the normal vs. special pummel interaction a lot less straight forward. 2) We are still in the closed beta phase. I don't agree with you on every critique of the game but I'm confident the aspects I do agree with such as the over centralization of tech chases in advantage will be changed if enough people provide feedback this early in the dev cycle.
Many people are saying it feels more like a sequel to PM than a sequel to Rivals, that's probably because the entire dev team is PM reps. I know a lot of Rivals players aren't happy about that
Yeah, I think when you look at it from the perspective of being a PM spiritual successor it makes a lot of sense, but its a bit insane to say "Rivals 2 isn't actually a sequel to Rivals 1 , but this entirely different game, actually"
@@Zetta330I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the intent. Two active games in eSports looks better to outsiders than one after all. Looks more professional and thus more profitable.
Since when is the entire dev team pm reps LOL Unless the definition has extended to "has played pm before" this is just flat out misinformation (´・ω・｀)
Rivals 2 feels so much more like PM that it seems it would inevitably be controversial. Dedicated fans of PM and Melee will probably find even more to like in it than they already would have in rivals 1. But fans of rivals 1 are going to feel like a lot of the best things in that game are... diminished or missing. I enjoyed the beta but it genuinely felt to me like a game I would play as a pairing with Rivals 1 rather than superceding it.
I think both games can coexist, but I wish it felt like that's what the devs were going for. If the characters in rivals 2 felt like they had more surface level differences compared to their first game counterparts, it would go a LONG way
13:35 Yes the special pummel is more rewarding 90% of the time if you look at it on paper, but the normal pummel is absolutely not useless. Hitting either pummel removes chain grab protection, which allows for bigger combos/more di mix ups after the throw that you would not get if you were to just throw the opponent and not pummel. Since special pummel is the greater reward as it does something on top of removing chain grab protection, the majority of players will try to break out of special pummel, which in turn makes normal pummel more likely to hit and therefore more rewarding to go for. This will then start making the opponent guess normal to break out which allows special pummel to work more often ect ect. Since there is a reward from both pummels and still a reason to do neither, it adds a dynamic guessing game to pummels that also can add expression between players. I also find this system a really cool solution to improve on typical pummels in smash bros, it adds depth to the mechanic while also removing the need to mash out which is just an awful mechanic for obvious reasons. Ofc there is an argument to be had that only competitive players will feel the how much better this new system is and how much it adds to the feel of the game, but I'd argue it would feel similar to your description of drift di for new players, where they may not understand what's happening but will realise they have more control in the situation at hand as the person being grabbed and more to consider in advantage as the person who is grabbing. As a top level RoA player I disagree with a lot of what was said in this video but especially the idea that Rivals 2 is not innovating in the genre, and I think this system alone is a good showcase of that.
Thank you, I appreciate the insight on this. I'd argue there's still an issue here, as i don't think there's any mention of this without doing some serious digging (none of my friends that i played with/talked to were aware of this) but it's a bit more understandable as it's a beta and not finished, and not all the resources are there. I think that does make me think considerably more favorably of the pummel system, and i'll have to play around with it more in the next beta. As a more casual player I'm still not huge on all the changes, and I appreciate the other perspective!
@@dankl3ss194 For the majority of scenarios you aren’t “risking dying” for getting hit by a special pummel, they do have more reward than a normal pummel, but normal pummels also carry a greater reward than a throw with no pummel. If you are getting normal pummelled over and over, you are consistently giving the opponent more reward because you refuse to stop trying to break out of a special pummel. This feels akin to saying “I always di in on combos because I don’t want to risk diing out a kill move”, if you always hold in and refuse to ever mix up your di better players will consistently punish you for it and on average get much higher reward than if you mixed up your di. In any platform fighter it’s never good to do the same thing forever because you are scared of something the opponent isn’t currently doing.
@@BossHogLive except there is an indication to when a drift di out of a combo is safe from getting kill there is nothing in a grab break out. You only have to choose between dying or taking dmg ofc you would choose dmg everytime. Even if you manage to break out everytime, you are winning the coin flip not with actual skill
@@dankl3ss194 I want to reiterate that special pummel does not just “make you die”. I don’t think you have an understanding of the system or typical fighting game risk reward if you think it’s ALWAYS better to try and break out of a special pummel. Yes you avoid giving them the highest reward they can get from a grab, but only if they are also using special pummel every time. If you go into Rivals 2 with this mentality you are going to be abused by players who realise you are letting them get a normal pummel every time.
As a massive fan of platform fighters and especially Rivals 1, while I do agree with some of your points, I don't with others, though I can see where you're coming from. I'm still not used to drift DI being removed, and I totally agree that the defensive game in regards to stuff like knockdowns and the air/offstage game feel partially lackluster. Same with the new specials not being utilized as effectively on characters like Kragg and Wrastor when compared to the likes of Ranno, Maypul, and Loxodont. I think my biggest disagreement is in regards to the returning cast. With the exception of a good chunk of Wrastor's kit, I think most of their movesets are fantastic, and save for a Ranno DStrong here and a Clairen NSpecial there, they didn't need any fundamental changes when making the transition between games besides tweaked stats and attack values. Zetterburn still feels like a fiery spacie, Ranno still feels like a precise combo ninja, and Kragg's now the grappler he was always destined to be. And even if you don't like the returning cast, we got two awesome new character designs in Fleet and Loxodont with more inevitably coming in the future. Ultimately though, I respect the direction Rivals 2 is heading in because it's the platform fighter that Dan Fornace and his team have wanted to make since day 1. They grew up with Melee and PM and that's the torch they want to carry, and Dan has said he wanted to play with shields and grabs in Rivals 1, but couldn't due to how small he had to scope the project initially. While that lead to some cool stuff for that game, parries and no ledges aren't what they feel defines Rivals. To them, and to me as well, Rivals has always been about, well, the rivals; these absolutely awesome and unique character designs with mechanical synergy and gameplay depth the likes of which I've yet to see in any other fighting game. So yeah Rivals 2's mechanics are gonna be different from Rivals 1 and its characters are gonna stay mostly the same, and that's ok by me. It's not like 1 is gonna be worthless once 2 releases anyways, just like how Melee didn't die once the other Smash games came out, or how people still love and play 3rd Strike despite Street Fighter changing rapidly after it. And even though Rivals 1 won't be officially supported much, it'll still get awesome new stuff put out by the workshop scene. I'm sure Rivals 2 also gonna get even better as time goes on, both through beta testing, as well as whatever fun stuff Aether Studios has cooking for new characters and the story mode. They've shown with Rivals 1 that they know what they're doing when it comes to making games.
I agree with some of the criticisms here, but i really dont agree with the "Hollow imitation" narrative you have going on and find those terms rather reductive and unnecessary.
I like this comment. I feel like a good amount of the points in this video are valid. But many frustrations come from how it feels like defaming rivals instead of constructive feedback.
@@kelbym3710 Yeah the real issue with this video is how it's framed more so than the points themselves. Especially for a game in beta months from release being made by a team that is well known to take community feedback into account as they adjust things.
My main issue is that doing anything in rivals 2 feels like theres a small but noticeable barrier. Rivals 1 feels like absolute butter. Everything happens as I want and I always feel in control. Its the best feeling game I think ive ever played.
@D_YellowMadness NASB has it too, and Rushdown Revolt. Also most ppl need to realize alot of platform fighters wanted to have ledge but they didn't know how to program it.
I think this was a fairly good critique and put a important light on the key differences between rivals 1 and 2. I especially appreciate this, as I came to rivals 1 for the same reasons as you gave
I'm always pleased to see fans do critiques of the games they love. Usually the most passionate fans have the most well researched critiques, and even if I don't always agree with the conclusions, your contributions to the conversation are appreciated!
I think it's more so the fact there are a lot more eyes on the game compared to the first game that had a relatively small following. With a lot of people anticipating the game comes with a lot of unsolicited critiquing.
@@infectedanimal9830 Because not all devs settle down into 1 game and a lot of the times they come up with new ideas or want something different. I mean the devs pretty quickly wanted to make a none fighter game not long after completing Rivals and then they wanted a 3d Rivals game. They aren't tied up and forced to do something specific like big companies do so when they want to change things up they will.
@@wintereclipse3263 Why not just make a different game then instead of a sequel that's trying its best to not be a sequel & instead trying to be an inferior version of a mod for a game that already got made 5 times?
I like rivals 2 but I completely agree that it does not feel like rivals 1, and feels really homogeneous to other plat fighters and way less interesting than the first game I would pick rivals 1 over rivals 2 any day
I saw the title and was honestly expecting to really disagree with this, but after seeing this, yeah, I kinda mostly agree. As a fairly casual player, I wondered why DI didn’t feel good and didn’t realize that drift DI didn’t exist, and the getup options feel awful and slow, with the tech window not feeling very open.
Correction: normal pummel is actually really good for a lot of characters, and can often be better than special pummels depending on the situation. While it might seem like they just do a bit of damage, if you look closely you can see it removes the yellow glow from the opponent. That's their grab armor that protects them from getting chaingrabbed. In other words, normal pummels allow you to chaingrab opponents while dealing 8% per pummel, which is huge. Many characters can also do this with their special pummel, but those specials usually do less damage and the dynamic of normal vs special creates a mixup either way. For some characters like kragg, their unique special pummels create a really cool dynamic with their normal pummel since they lead to completely different follow-ups. One more note: drift DI does sort of exist in other platform fighters like smash (and likely rivals 2). You can still input your DI after the first hit, but it's much weaker than R1's drift DI.
Yeah, I love Rivals 2, and some of the changes I was wary about (shields, grabs, etc) are starting to grow on me, but mechanically Rivals 1 will always be better. The thing I loved most about it is that it felt like everything that happened to me, good or bad, was my doing. Drift DI was by far the biggest reason for that, and I too hope it makes a return.
8:16 In games that add shielding I'd like the forcefield type, but only if it was one side of the character it defended, rather than an orb of temporary invincibility, a semicircle so you have to turn and try and time a good attack if someone leaps behind but also allowing you to mitigate damage to think for a bit.
I like this a lot since it mimics how traditional fighters handle blocking. Would indirectly discourage being too defensive since the opponent has more ways to open you up, specifically via cross-ups, which would result in Rivals 2 emphasizing spacing as a defensive strategy like Rivals 1 did. Some people may like that, others may not.
Honestly these criticisms are really valid, as a sequel to rivals 1 they don't really build on what unique elements rivals 1 added to the platform fighter genre such as it's hyper focus on aggressive play and movement over defense mechanics which made the game feel surprisingly more like a platformer than a fighting game. And the new mechanics they did introduce don't feel impactful, it's all exclusive on a knockdown state which is a state you're generally encouraged never to be in so it never feels like it gets any use or adds anything to that interaction. And I agree on how they should have changed more of the character's kits in Rivals 2, though in my opinion I wish they took a second pass to the character's general design based on their lore, every fighting game have characters who's fighting style who reflects the character's powers, personality, and story, such as how a character like Street Fighter 6's Marisa has a playstyle based around pankration as she's a person who believes themselves to be a descendant of roman warriors and practices a fighting style to carry it's legacy, while someone like Zetterburn in rivals who in lore is a loyal general in a Roman styled society doesn't reflect any of that passion or dedication to his society as he kept his rivals 1 fighting style where he's largely a brawl wolf parallel. Whenever I try to introduce my friends to the game they don't ever stick around as there's never a character they can attach too, even my partner who doesn't like fighting games at least has some interest in Street Fighter because they have crazy characters like AKI and Juri in their roster but rivals has largely no characters with that staying power to make a casual audience stick around.
I think you make some great points here, some of the changes and "additions" made in Rivals 2 are either unnecessary or not tuned enough to warrant their inclusion, getup specials especially. I would've replaced getup specials with perhaps a Shield Special of sorts that gives you something to do out of shield quickly, but uses up the shield's stamina. Also 14:22 is a really good idea, as not only would it help warrant the normal pummel more, it would give the opponent more time to try to escape the grab, as I feel like casual players will have a hard time reacting quick enough to getting grabbed to make a guess, eapecially since mashing out of grab is probably their gut reaction.
having a sequel be significantly different from the original is a good thing and this way of thinking comes from the absolutely cooked consumer mindset that a sequel should kill the original this is not the case. they can better coexist when they're different. I'm happy Dan got to make the game he always wanted to.
I think for a multiplayer game this only really works if both games stay alive and active. If sequels are significantly different and the previous game is borderline unplayable because the playerbase just isn't there that's a problem
@skippyasqueeze Workshop works in the case of Rivals to keep it alive (especially since it's not strictly tied to a console that will become outdated), but I'm speaking more generally. Sometimes you have stuff like Melee that will live forever, and sometimes you have Smash4 that faded into obscurity as soon as Ultimate came out. You never really know. Making a sequel to a multiplayer game radically different is a huge risk. Especially when sometimes changes are made just for the sake of being different instead of to actually improve
@@SilverRyuu we can't stop creating art because we're afraid that other earlier art will become ignored. Nothing in rivals two is being made for the sake of being different. It's being made to realize the vision dan was very vocal about having before rivals 1 was even finished. Yes sometimes games die, but making games different gives it more opportunity to thrive both in concert than having one just be the same thing as the first but 2.0. It's a smart decision.
@@SilverRyuu Doesn't the Ult example just play into what skippy was saying though? Ultimate didn't make much of a change to the formula from 4, they are by far the 2 most similar smash games. From almost everyone's perspective I've seen in the community it was "Why play smash 4 when ultimate is just what 4 had but bigger and better?" And that was the original point he was making. If you make a sequel just the same but better, there is never a reason to go back other than the novelty. Yes straying too far from what it was originally could alienate the playerbase, but that's the line you gotta dance around when making a sequel. In this case the stark differences between Rivals 1&2 mechanically could very well lead to both communities helping eachother grow.
As someone who has spent a ton of time in both Smash and Rivals Rivals 2 has me excited for the future of the genre It is a pretty huge departure from Rivals 1, but that's ok
Coming from the perspective of a melee player, I get that shields might be a big change but trust me: there is a TON of depth in the shield mechanic. Shielding is definitely less interesting in a game like ult which doesn't have wavedash and shielddrop, but in a game with those mechanics, you can use shield in a ton of creative ways
I tried Rivals 2 on Parsec during the beta weekend and I really like how it plays… though that’s probably cuz I love playing Smash Ultimate as well lmao. I’m still gonna play Rivals 1 tho, cuz I love that game Hearing your thoughts in this video was really interesting to hear. I didn’t have much time to play Rivals 2 so I didn’t think too much about the stuff you brought up
When I was playing the beta, I definitely ran into the same issues, especially drift DI and wall jumping. I hope these things get reverted or at least altered. Very good video for informing people about these changes.
Love this video. It's sad to see Rivals 2 reject many of the concepts that people loved in Rivals 1 that didn't push away casuals like Drift DI and strong wavedashes, opting to mold the game into Smash rather than seeing how those mechanics could work with and shape the mechanics that they've borrowed from it.
honestly this video changed a lot about how I have felt about rivals 2, but just like fraymakers I hope this game learns a lot and takes its criticism very seriously
Despite this game having ledges and shields to give more defensive options. they managed to make the defensive state feel worse than rivals 1 where your only option is to run away or parry.
Yeah they talked about the benefits of normal pummel in some live stream they did, people probably just haven't figured it out yet because of the beta lasting like 2 days
I did not realize how much I didn't want knockdown and ledge grabs in Rivals until this video. Off stage was an interesting scuffle and ledge grabbing looks like it simplifies it a lot more than it should. And with knockdowns, maybe if it acted more like a mixup to mess with timing like in Dragonball fighters (delay getup and being immune until standing) I would like it more maybe. Grabs are a bit of a mixed bag. I sorta like this but not really? Can't tell you how many ppl I've gotten from them mashing out of my grab in Smash. So it being this match the attack to escape helps make it consistent. But it just being 2 options is kinda bad. I think having 2-3 different normal pummel types (high/mid/low) and 1 special could help make normal pummel more appealing. Personally instead of a grab, I would rather it be a burst that acted like a parry and shattered opponents shields at the cost of some of your own. Would help keep things moving instead of a guessing minigame. However, I will die on the hill that is my need for shields. I hated the parry in Rivals1. It felt inconsistent so I never really used it much during a game. It made me always be aggressive at all times and that just isn't my playstyle. Hell, I'll take chip percentage in exchange for no knockback. Just give me a consistent defensive option that isn't constantly rolling like a milktank or wavedashing like I snorted several lines of pixy stix.
The thing I'm most worried about is the knockdowns, I experienced them first in Fraymakers and they mess so much with my brawlhalla wake-up focused mind. Not being able to move normally immediately felt horrible. I still mash dodge-in the moment I get hit in rivals and in Rivals 2 I'll be mashing parry while in knockdown state.
You know I thought I was going crazy playing the backer weekend, I was going back and forth between rivals 2 being like either smash 4 or PM while knowing rivals 1 was a more extreme melee. If you just go in the game tells you nothing, this is the first time I heard there was a special pummel, I knew there was a special ledge get up and a knock down but the game doesn't help in that, not even lvl 9 bots, which were kinda bad? I had a fleet lvl9 bot roll behind me and down strong opposite of me while I was just standing still. And speaking of fleet she does have a small amount of sauce, I learned you can tap jump with a jump button and hold down with an analog stick to get an instant air float and not all moves work, especially if you are on the stage proper but her back air works and that seems to be her best killing aerial move and you can do it out of shield too. I dub it the pillz aerial because Ive heard no one else talk about it
If i may go on a small tangent, the screenshot where you blurred out the new characters seems to be in alphabetical order. with a quick google search you can find that the letters between f and k, are G, H, I, and J. we can use these to figure out the name of the blurred character by seeing which characters from rivals one have these letters. By process of elimination, this leaves Forsburn or Hodan. We know Forsburn is already confirmed, but i dont think that a blur of that size would have covered up his whole name. no, i believe it is safe to assume that the funny monkey will be returning for rivals 2. not only is there a stage with his face in it, his theme is ON the kickstarter website as a preview. with the provided evidence i think its all but confirmed that the king of onsen himself will be in rivals 2.
I really liked everything about Rivals 1. The only reason I didn’t stick with it is because barely anyone played it especially since the announcement of Rivals 2. I‘ve been very sceptical of a lot of the changes you‘ve pointed out especially because that’s what primarily set it apart from smash bros but since it was backed by people i thought were trustworthy and a lot of people seemed to really like it I just thought I‘d trust the process and I was also really hyped for Rivals 2. You‘ve basically described everything I was worried about. Don‘t get me wrong I‘m definitely gonna try it out and I am very excited for it but I think my expectations are a lot more grounded now. (I was also a big fan of the pixel art aesthetic and don’t really like how the 3d graphics look but that’s just preference) [also rip me as an ori main :( ]
After having played RoA2 I gotta say I really needed some time for the game to grow on me but ultimately I really enjoy it. At the beginning there was something that really frustrated me about the game. At first I couldn’t really put my finger on what exactly it was but after rewatching this video it‘s 100% the lack of drift DI. There was always a weird sense of lack of agency especially when getting launched directly upwards. This still feels quite bad but I gotta say that I really like a lot of things about RoA2 and I will definitely keep playing it.
i'm happy about this video, it's especially important since unlike most fighting games, rivals's creators are much more active with the community so there's a good chance things will not stay as they are
I went into this this caution, but i completely agree with all the points here. although it still feels like rivals to me, and i like the additions such as ledges. but the opinions here are shown super constructively. also i forgot about drift di. it is stupid that it isnt in the game
Damn, calling rivals 2 shields 1-dimensional and shields bad in general i WILD. Having shields & parries is amazing. Rivals 1 only having parry as a defensive mechanic, now that is 1-dimensional.
@@Miphos Not true because you can just powershield meaning if you break your shield you just suck especially with how fast they regen. Zetta was spitting. Bubble shields are a plague on the genre that hurt it so much. The risk vs reward is heavily scued in favor of not approaching and spamming shields cause you can't heavily punish defense beyond grabs which oh wait grabs are kinda slow and requires guesswork while the shielder can just mindlessly hold it even and then retaliate after the opponent's attack comes out and gets blocked.
I'm going through the video, trying to find a timestamp to show shields being lame, and I can't choose, because every time either player shields, it looks slow and boring. In rivals 1, they'd be playing the game instead
Correct me if im wrong as i haven't played the game yet but with your proposition to fixing grabbing issue wont that cause another issue? If someone waits instead of guessing the first time the person holding them can just toss them after instead of doing another pummel or grab so that they dont have to worry about the grab'e guessing the second time. Leading the to the person getting grabbed to try to guess the first time. Not guessing correctly sounds way more punishing if you dare to guess wrong or not guess at all
in Killer Instinct, where the mechanic was taken from, the idea is that you want to try to breaker as quick as you can to minimize damage, but ultimately you just want to have a correct breaker. I think that there is a mindgame of not guessing meaning that the opponent *has* to throw that could create a very interesting mixup game However, apparently the normal pummel does have some additional properties I was not aware of, so I'll have to play around with those next time the beta is available
I will say that after trying the game online, before playing a full on 7 hours or offline friendlies, playing it offline just makes everything feel that little bit better which I think it definitely needs, all the same i absolutely loved my time with the game, but the video is really well put together and I absolutely understand those who didnt have as good a time as me. Much love from NZ ♡
This video seems to be an expression of my exact opinions Rivals 2 looks like it’s gonna be a great game that I am legitimately excited for but it’s not gonna be a continuation of the first
@@catisreckless4647 Well ideally the devs would listen to the critiques and keep improving the game prior to release. So if the video ends up aging like milk, that's like the best case scenario theoretically.
You think shields are bad? While in Smash except for 64, shields are pretty OP, not having shields is a turn off for me. Like Multiversus. I think if shields covered one side or had more blockstun it would be better.
If shields worked more like blocks and had more stun like block stun in fighters i think they would be interesting but how they usually get implemented it ends up being a super boring mechanic that has no risk and heavily rewards defense while being extremely boring to see and use. Rivals 2 shields are a lot like Smash ultimate shields (not a compliment BTW).
@@luckymanx2978 You know what i can say fair to that. Parrying does need more reworking and tuning. (both versions) I also agree with that sentiment too. I really don't get why devs don't make the RPS systems of platfighters more fair and fun and interactive in general. I never understood why neutral in platfighters were more boring in comparison in teh past but thinking on it every new platfighter release i get it now. There really is no point in approaching really. You only do it out of necessity if you are losing and even the schmooving is all just defensive play to try and get the opponent to make a move first thats risky that you can capitalize on. There is no back and forth or neutral skips like other fighters would have because stage control and the RPS balance between offense and defense is screwed against offense and heavily rewarding defense even compared to the most defensive traditional fighters. The tug of war game is not present cause of this as well since there is no way to reliably whiff punish most of the time or bait with a whiff.
@@dave9515 exactly! Who ever attacks first loses. I think you should only parry aerial attacks, however aerial attacks should be slightly plus on block or -1,-2. Grounded moves should be minus but they are not parriable. Third. There is no grounded parry, doing so will remove the weakness of parry. I think Melee has the most engaging neutral as aerials are slightly plus in some cases, but melee neutral has its flaws.
Rivals 1 defense is mostly about footsies. If Rivals 2 can find a way for shielding to reward footsies in the same way Rivals 1 does but still have shielding as an option I think it could make for a very good system. I think part of the reason Melee is such a beloved game to this day is because shielding is a bad option. Shields barely cover the character and quickly deteriorate letting offense shine. (Pun intended). I wouldn't want Rivals 2 to have small shields in the same way Melee does but I'm sure that if the Rivals dev team looks into shields more they could make a very compelling system.
Agree mostly about the shield talk except Powershielding is a thing in melee and if it got optimized you wouldn't think so highly of melee's shield mechanics. Bubble shields are way too good no matter what and melee has a lot of jank so we should not try to replicate that game.
I think characters need better shield pressure tools to alleviate this, Zetter's entire moveset feels unsafe against shield and I don't really know what the answer is to it other than empty jump grab rn.
Basically, if this game came out first, it would've been better, it's at tue quality a first game would have been expected to be with Rivals classic being good enough to be it's own sequel!
I disagree with most of what you said, but I can still understand where your coming from on most things. The only thing I dont really get is you saying the older characters dont fit with the engine and new mechanics. While I can kind of understand that, I feel like it also just doesn’t make much sense seeing as the first 4 characters they made on the new engine are literally from Rivals 1. Which to me, means that the game was built off of these older characters. So I dont really understand how the characters that the engine was made for, dont work in Rivals 2. Like I get that their moves might not mix well with shields and throws, but also if the game started out with mainly returning characters would the shields and grabs not be facilitated towards the older movesets? With my time in Rivals 2 I really enjoyed each character and learning the new ways to play each of them. I think if you play the characters exactly how you would in Rivals 1, you’re gonna end up getting beat out by the new mechanics and playstyle of Rivals 2.
From my perspective, it feels that the engine was NOT made for the characters. A lot of the choices made to the game feel like they were done with the actual characters being an afterthought. Grabs are actually a perfect example of this. NONE of the returning characters have a throw that interacts with their gimmick with the exception of zetterburn, who's forward throw ignites the opponent.. on a kill throw. In addition, quite a few characters have new special moves that don't really interact with their existing specials (wrastor being the most notable example). I would have loved to see how creative the devs could get with these new tools, and was dissapointed to see they really didn't.
What I'd change: » Shields shouldn't be able to block strong attacks unless it's a spot shield (meaning you guess when they decide to hit their strong, which is satisfying and should be rewarded :) ) » I'm with ya about pummels: 14:21 » Add drift DI back, even if reduced compared to the original, some control is better than nothing... » Would it hurt if they *tried* letting players use the ledge AND have the old wall jumps from ROA1? Not sure it would actually be as OP as it sounds, but surely it's worth trying..? I'm really looking forward to the sequel to my favourite platform fighter, I'll be looking out for these things when I eventually play it for myself :)
Homestly, im surprised that Rivals is even getting a sequel. Being 3D heavily limits mod potential, if it exists at all; and it's probablu non-controversial to say that the mod support is the prime driver of RoA's popularity.
i haven't looked at this game since i saw they were throwing the sprite based style into the trash and looking at it now it looks like they just mpdded rivals characters into project m or something rather than an actual followup to rivals, i still would want to get it once it comes out to support people who made one of my favorite games but idk if i would like this nearly as much as the original game
I think this video was actually pretty constructive and well made, even as a minor fan of rivals 1. I'm confindent a lot of polish will be made to make the game feel smoother, theyre entering the polish stage of development
I half agree with the sheilds complaint. It feels like it needs something for that extra oomph. It's too late to alter things now but I feel like a cool change would be taking a page out of Fraymaker's book but with a Rivals twist. Your shield only protects the side you're facing, while your parry covers your entire hitbox. Add that on top of it taking you longer to recharge your shield and your shield consumption being much faster, with the punishment being you can only parry until the shield is recharged instead of stunning the player for a bit, and you've got yourself a cool risk vs. reward mechanic. That's not to say what we have right now is bad, It's just a idea for that something to spice up the formula.
Nah if that happened then parries need hard nerfs cause no world its right to heavily reward a player for abusing a resource and getting punished for it. If your shield has to regen you deserve to suffer for misusing the resource or else there is no risk to shielding. The idea literally does not help anything at all imo. Aggro deserves rewards too you know. If you break a shield you deserve a reward not punishment. Parry is a reward for breaking your shield and thats stupid in this hypothetical.
I do think its entirely reasonable for Rivals 1 players to be upset about the change in direction to something more like PM. That being said though, I kind of predicted a lot of this. Dan Fornace had said multiple times that several elements of R1 design were a product of technical limitations, such as no ledges, no shields, etc. That being said, I agree that it is undeniable that the old characters feel a bit wonky in the new engine with the minor exception of Zetterburn.
Do R1 players reserve the right to be upset about the changes? Absolutely. No question. They grew to love something, even if it wasn't "supposed" to exist. I feel for them. But, I personally feel that for the longevity of the franchise and the development team as a whole, translating the Rivals patented character design into a more universally understandable engine was a good move. I personally think that the mechanics added are actually all better, but I don't think it's unreasonable to feel otherwise.
I also do think it's worth mentioning that R1 is not going to disappear because of the existence of R2. R1 also has very robust workshop support which really helps. So, I hope that people won't forget that it exists. It's still a great game and deserves to be played.
I understand why you say this and i can agree on some leveles, but rivals of aether 2 needed to happen. The original game wasnt as big as most other games and wouldve dissapeared into void without a huge revamp so a sequal was a good choice for branding especially for teaming up with offbrand games for more publicity. I personally like the new movesets and abilities to shield and special grab, it adds even more variety for combo potentials. I think your points are fair and valid but atleast when the game releases on oct23 make a new video seeing if you still have theses opinions.
I've never played this "Rivals" game but the sequal looks really good even if the gameplay isn't the same I feel like the sequal will draw in more players.
pretty damn good video, i don't think this game will be bad on final release, hell, as a PM fan, this is right up my alley, but losing some things that made rivals 1 so unique does hurt, though, in a way, it also helps R1 stand out more and give me reasons to keep going back and playing it, even after R2's release
While there were a few good points I disagree heavily with the new pummel system being bad or unexpressive. Regular pummels remove grab invincibility which allows for chaingrabs. As the game gets optimized people will definitely start abusing that more which will make grab breaking with A just as important as grab breaking with B.
The kind of game that you seem to like already sorta exists: YOMI Hustle. Insanely fast, tactical chess-like fighting game about making super flash anime fights while beating your opponent to a pulp.
I dont agree with your take on shielding I do think shielding is a really good mechanic it just hasn't been implemented well yet. I havent gotten to play rivals 2 yet so idk if it's in there but Ult took a lot of steps to make shielding more interactive with parrying and holding b to angle your shield. I think it would be a near perfect system if they didnt also give most of the cast ridiculously broken oos.
Thats not the only issue the shields are way too big for the whole cast in ultimate and they regen super fast to the point there is no risk in spamming shields regardless. Bubble shields are a plague on this genre of games. They don't work and neuter aggressive options heavily with a free 0 risk get out of jail free card. Other than this i do heavily agree with you btw. Also you might have forgotten but early ultimate it took a really long time to regen a shield when it was low and the community unanimously complained about it resulting in the regen of shields we have now in ultimate. OOS options is a really dumb concept in general and should just be removed.
@@dave9515 I don't agree because the way shields lock your movement is already enough of a weakness, not to mention that shield damage is already pretty high. I'm also not opposed to oos, I think the change where grab oos was nerfed was really good but with how fast and safe a lot of oos options are it's overtuned. (Especially when they're given to zoners and swordies) I like the dynamic of having to pressure shields and how that adds to the dynamic between grounded moves and aerials, so I'm fine with shields being good as long as you're in a disadvantageous position while using them.
@@dave9515 Bubble shields themselves are not a plague on the genre. Rivals 2 could still use some tuning of them yes, but it isn't an unsalvageable mechanic. You are locked in place and are vulnerable to grabs, which against some characters leads to their most powerful combo's and leads to dangerous situations. I would like better tools for pressuring shields mainly myself.
As a anime fighter fan, i LOVE rivals 2. It feels like an actual anime like fighting game minus the high low and cross ups put into a plat fighter. I kinda disliked Rivals 1 because it really feels like a footsie simulator rather than a fighting game. Yes, footsies are a great part of all fighting games but rivals 1 imo fails to highlight the spectacle of it by not having a real defensive mechanic. It's missing the layers of adaption like pressuring someone's block, conditioning for grabs, etc, that turns me off completely. I completely understand your and many other rivals 1 fans stance on the game, but personally for me rivals 2 feels VERY nice as a fighting game fan.
I always felt like Rivals had a great unique identity for casuals compared to Smash Ultimate with: - The gorgueous pixel art - The very agressive defensive mechanics - Workshop support (Great viral marketing, funny at parties) And this sequel doesn't really seem to embrace any of these. It's just so weird, it feels like they instead just want to make it more like Smash Bros since they got a higher budget, almost feels like the pixel art and parry system in the first game was just there for budget reasons. Why would a casual player play Rivals 2 over Smash Ultimate? Of course they should make the game they want to make (Very clearly it's by PM mega fans for PM mega fans) But I really can't see this game ever selling even close to the anmount ROA1 did, and to me it feels like they let go of a lot of what I felt like was ROA1's unique identity to replace it with Smash Bros. Worship. And I feel like all the Smash Bros. worshipping in the dev teams is really holding platform fighters as a unique genre back IMO.
Eh I mean heres the thing rivals 2 is going to have the bigger player base iv played the beta and it was fun also no it didn't feel like a smash clone it still felt like it's own thing Roa2 also had a successful kickstarter as well like 1 million which is alot for a platform fighter
i guess is that the game is prob gonna be a big breath of fresh air to smash players but fans of rivals 1 will feel like its less of the game they fell in love with. Imo I think if the game's title was something that wasnt just "the sequel to the first rivals game" because it seems good just too different to be an upgrade its more of a sidegrade/option
I can imagine that the devs thought about this game in the context of competitive melee. And while this is almost guaranteed with platform fighters, they probably especially focused on the melee aspect in the game design. In the past the competitive Melee/PM scene had a lot of trouble and maybe they wanted to make a contribution to the community by making a game which is design and mechanic-wise in a similar context, so that players wont have to worry about Nintendo
I bought the game last night. We're not the best at platform games but fighting games are our bonding time with me and my son and we love Rivals 1. But when we tried Rivals 2, it was so foreign that we felt we didn't have complete control over our characters, hitboxes were weird and sometimes don't register. We were so much looking forward to the sequel, but unfortunately we have to refund the game because it wasn't fun to play for the both of us.
Honestly, it almost feels like Smash has a stranglehold on platform fighters as a genre. Whenever a new one gets announced, so many people immediately feel the need to compare it to Smash, and worse case scenario, they call them "smash killers", which just ends up bringing people's expectations up way too high. In some aspects, Rivals 2 feels like it's almost making an active attempt to quell comments like this by making it closer to Melee and PM, and while this works for some, it just makes the game seem like "Project M 2" to me, as opposed to "Rivals of Aether 2". Chances are I'll still enjoy it when it comes out, but it is honestly disappointing that it's becoming more similar to Smash instead of pushing itself further in its own direction.
You applauded Rivals 1 for changing the platform fighting formula and then criticize Rivals 2 for changing it again I understand that you feel like it's not being true to itself by changing ledge/off stage mechanics, using different DI system, tech chasing, etc, but I think it's perfect for the Melee/PM community With what's going on with Nintendo and Melee/PM, this game makes a lot of sense for that player base I agree that the music seems like it doesn't belong Also, some of the character model faces look weird to me
@xelic1996 and isnt that everything though? The core identity is now "just another smash bros clone" ...I'm not saying rivals 2 will be boring. The gameplay looks awesome as a melee players that barely touched rivals 1. But I can see why rivals 1 players are upset that the game they loved was turned into a game heavily influenced by smash bros.
@@Frichilsasta08 No. The core identity has always been the character designs and how they have a kit that by design combos together with unique interactions more akin to a moba than most platform fighters. Things like no ledges, shields, or grabs were purely because of the small team and lack of know-how at the time of RoA being developed. This is the game Dan always intended to make.
@@xelic1996 the core identity of rivals is definitely influenced both by the character designs and movesets AND by the unique gameplay elements with relation to other platform fighters the feel of rivals is the main reason people loved it or didn't love it, and there's a reason why melee players who didn't like the last game prefer this one. the mechanics are an essential part of the identity, and they've changed lots now
I haven't played rivals 2 just yet, but when the first gameplay trailer dropped, m heart sank over the inclusion of shields, that was the one thing that kept me coming back to the original rivals was because of how the parry mechanic worked and why it felt so much more valuable rushing down my opponent. If you're interested to see how other games attempted to evolve defensive play, maybe take a look at nasb2? the shield mechanics in that game I found to be really fun and punished defensive play if you were sitting at ledge, but also depending if you're holding the slime button in shield, you can choose weather or not you want the shield to be pushed away from your opponent, acting more like a normal smash shield as a sacrifice for your meter. the game would be really fun if it wasnt for the expensive dlc smh
It's really sad to never see nasb2 be brought to these conversations, it may has its problems, but it is a genuinely innovative platfighter people don't look into. During the entire shield section I was just thinking of the nasb2 shield and how it is basically a more indepth pm shield, genuinely one of my favourite takes of it
Even after so long since the beta and this video i still don't understand Ledge Hogging bwing introduced. Ledges in general ate a drastic change but i get it as a way to make recovery safer... untill the opponent grabs the ledge and now you are left with near zero recovery tools. Why trade a very dynamic off stage system for the most one-sided, unsatisfying systems in the genre?
The thing is, even as much as I played Rivals 2's Beta and love the game to death... I feel like all the points you made are correct. Perhaps it didn't feel as different of a game to me since most of the platform fighters I've played in the last 2 years are Rivals, P+, and HDR, and so going from those to Rivals 2 might not feel too bad. (And I mostly played Kragg and Clairen in the beta, arguably the least different feeling characters) But the game definitely has some room to grow. Drift DI (allegedly) is still in the game, just not in the beta, so that could still change. But I agree with pummel attacks/specials being too in favor of special pummels. And Kragg getup special is not super good at all, yeah. And wavedashes being much weaker doesn't feel great. Initially I thought I'd disagree with the video but I'm glad to hear your thoughts on it, and I have some hope for the game to do better.
Hitfalling also feels less fluid and not as good generally. The game is a lot less generous with buffering hitfalls, and on top of that, I'm not sure if I'm the only one that noticed but I believe the mechanic where hitting an aerial reduces endlag might have been changed?
I enjoyed the beta a lot. You have convinced me on the game would be better with drift di. Upstrong fleet chases being confirms at higher enough percent is funny though i would like if it was harder / more nuanced. I like fleet, i would switch if someone better is added but i do like them a lot & are my choice of main for now. I dont mind the chracters being mostly the same since i like them already (notable i like wrastor) but do agree with you zetter pummel sucks & some new specials could be more intresting better. (Clairens new special doenst feel that special to me like rivals 1 currnetly, it feels too much just like another normal or strong, air grab back would be nice) (Will mention i played a lot of P+ for a while so i got use to the mechanics more, i like not have shield angles since i dont want a modifer key just for shield angles. (Im a keyboard player that likely will switch to box)) (Will also say i think rivals 2 should have to modifer keys for a total of 16 direction because ledge as well some other things, that or more direction influence with c stick like mollo, only thing with that is forced asdi but still nice ti have)
Weird take, but I think that if they're dead set on keeping Rivals 2 how it is now, it would be neat if they added a sort of "legacy mode" that played way more like Rivals 1 as a side mode. Have it bring back drift DI, unnerf wall jumps, etc. I don't even think they should balance anything towards it, because they've gone on record saying that a lot of the changes they made to Rivals 1 mechanics were made to balance the game around all the Smash mechanics. As a side mode, they wouldn't have to worry about balancing the old mechanics and Rivals 1 players could have something fun to mess with at the same time. That'd be really cool I think :]
Largely unrelated to Rivals 2 specifically but I’d still like to see a second Rivals/Brawlhalla crossover, with a Teros skin for Loxodont and a Fleet skin for Ember
Ok the “smash” umbrella term is very misleading in this video. One, ledges in brawl and melee work VASTLY different than smash 4 and UTL. That’s the same for how di works in each game too. Melee has more than just “di” it also had smash di which to be fair isn’t as free as drift in terms of the control you have to your character but it was VERY close. It’s ok not to like smash but melee and every other game in the series are literally night and day in terms of how they feel and play and straight up have different mechanics.
One thing I want to address because I see this argument (and was worried that I conveyed it this way): My argument is NOT "Rivals 2 is bad because it's not rivals 1." My argument is that the new mechanics introduced in rivals 2 don't make up for what was lost in the transition. The characters do not feel like they were built for the changes that were made, and the new specials are largely uninteresting.
I would LOVE for the game to provide more to differentiate itself FROM rivals 1, but i think the characters are largely inseparable from how they were before. For example, if you look at Guilty Gear, Xrd Ky and Strive Ky are almost entirely different characters. But as a casual player, the differences between the characters feel a lot more minimal here in comparison.
Honestly, that take is way way worse than the “it’s not Rivals 1 and that makes me sad” take. You’re essentially arguing that the game just doesn’t work, which is flat out wrong based on the fact that everyone that isn’t a Rivals 1 diehard is eating this game up.
You’re allowed to be sad that it’s not more like Rivals 1. It’s a different video game, and you liked the old one more. You can still play Rivals 1, though, and if other people feel the same way as you it’ll maintain an active playerbase.
You entered the game with the expectation that it would be like Rivals 1, and so you tried to play it like Rivals 1. When that didn’t work, instead of learning the new game you made a youtube rantsona video about how the new game is a bad sequel. Your gameplay footage is complete garbage and it’s telling from it how much you have the game a chance on its own merits.
Just own the fact that you miss Rivals 1 gameplay. I personally think Rivals 1 feels too frantic and spammy (careful spacing isnt really rewarded at midlevel play). It’s just a matter of opinion.
@@dragonmonitor 1) It isn't a rantsona. 2) I agree. I have the same problem with Dreams being Dreams and not LittleBigPlanet: I memorized tutorials and just didn't pick up Dreams right away or maybe even at all despite them being similar. 3) Directional Alteration is not 'impossible' to implement. A 3D version/hybrid of controls from Your Only Move is Hustle and Minecraft with some tweaks so it is Intellectual-Property-Ready is... alien... but not impossible. 4) No one should alienate anyone. Everything has an 'entry fee'. and 5) You shouldn't like a game for its Day 1 inexperienced player abundance curve if your logic is Zetta shouldn't like a game for its Day 1 inexperienced player abundance curve. To say otherwise is to say 'Oh, I like Halo 2 because of the Day 1 losers I could verse.' or something to that effect. (I understand if all 5 bullet points miss and aren't at all what you mean. I'm just covering the bases.)
Instead of doubling down you should delete this video and apologize for insulting the devs who are clearly trying their best and raining on the parade of people who are actually excited for the game. Also, if you say the reason you don't like Rivals 2 *isn't* because it's not Rivals 1, then why did you make an 18 minute video explaining why the sequel is inferior to the original?
@@iamshabingus okay, let’s not go too far here
It seems that no matter the state of Rivals Kragg remains the perfect organism.
He is without flaw and the pinnacle of Platform Fighter evolution.
Facts.
Facts
K R A G G
"Kragg slow. We make Kragg faster"
-Dan, 2020
Most powerful smash heavy: "I am either a joke or I make the world an actively worse place via my existence."
Least powerful Rivals heavy: "I invoke legitimate fear and actually justify myself being a giant character that gets hit alot."
2 things I want to bring up:
1) There is a window after being grabbed that prevents you from being grabbed again. Normal pummel removes this window which allows characters to chain grab with certain throws making the normal vs. special pummel interaction a lot less straight forward.
2) We are still in the closed beta phase. I don't agree with you on every critique of the game but I'm confident the aspects I do agree with such as the over centralization of tech chases in advantage will be changed if enough people provide feedback this early in the dev cycle.
please let this comment get to the top
I'm pretty sure the guy who said that in a video recanted in the comments saying oh, special pummel also does that, nevermind.
Many people are saying it feels more like a sequel to PM than a sequel to Rivals, that's probably because the entire dev team is PM reps. I know a lot of Rivals players aren't happy about that
project M reps?
Yeah, I think when you look at it from the perspective of being a PM spiritual successor it makes a lot of sense, but its a bit insane to say "Rivals 2 isn't actually a sequel to Rivals 1 , but this entirely different game, actually"
@@Zetta330I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the intent. Two active games in eSports looks better to outsiders than one after all. Looks more professional and thus more profitable.
Since when is the entire dev team pm reps LOL
Unless the definition has extended to "has played pm before" this is just flat out misinformation (´・ω・｀)
3.6 Demo
Rivals 2 feels so much more like PM that it seems it would inevitably be controversial. Dedicated fans of PM and Melee will probably find even more to like in it than they already would have in rivals 1. But fans of rivals 1 are going to feel like a lot of the best things in that game are... diminished or missing. I enjoyed the beta but it genuinely felt to me like a game I would play as a pairing with Rivals 1 rather than superceding it.
I think both games can coexist, but I wish it felt like that's what the devs were going for. If the characters in rivals 2 felt like they had more surface level differences compared to their first game counterparts, it would go a LONG way
as someone who hates melee and doesn't play pm and only played rivals 1, this game is perfect to me
I think that might be what they’re going for actually, given rivals 1’s strong modding scene that 2 can’t replicate due to being 3d modeled
13:35 Yes the special pummel is more rewarding 90% of the time if you look at it on paper, but the normal pummel is absolutely not useless.
Hitting either pummel removes chain grab protection, which allows for bigger combos/more di mix ups after the throw that you would not get if you were to just throw the opponent and not pummel. Since special pummel is the greater reward as it does something on top of removing chain grab protection, the majority of players will try to break out of special pummel, which in turn makes normal pummel more likely to hit and therefore more rewarding to go for. This will then start making the opponent guess normal to break out which allows special pummel to work more often ect ect.
Since there is a reward from both pummels and still a reason to do neither, it adds a dynamic guessing game to pummels that also can add expression between players. I also find this system a really cool solution to improve on typical pummels in smash bros, it adds depth to the mechanic while also removing the need to mash out which is just an awful mechanic for obvious reasons. Ofc there is an argument to be had that only competitive players will feel the how much better this new system is and how much it adds to the feel of the game, but I'd argue it would feel similar to your description of drift di for new players, where they may not understand what's happening but will realise they have more control in the situation at hand as the person being grabbed and more to consider in advantage as the person who is grabbing.
As a top level RoA player I disagree with a lot of what was said in this video but especially the idea that Rivals 2 is not innovating in the genre, and I think this system alone is a good showcase of that.
Thank you, I appreciate the insight on this. I'd argue there's still an issue here, as i don't think there's any mention of this without doing some serious digging (none of my friends that i played with/talked to were aware of this) but it's a bit more understandable as it's a beta and not finished, and not all the resources are there. I think that does make me think considerably more favorably of the pummel system, and i'll have to play around with it more in the next beta.
As a more casual player I'm still not huge on all the changes, and I appreciate the other perspective!
Why would anyone choose normal break out and risk dying tho? I dont think the guessing game is worth it for the one being grabbed
@@dankl3ss194 For the majority of scenarios you aren’t “risking dying” for getting hit by a special pummel, they do have more reward than a normal pummel, but normal pummels also carry a greater reward than a throw with no pummel. If you are getting normal pummelled over and over, you are consistently giving the opponent more reward because you refuse to stop trying to break out of a special pummel.
This feels akin to saying “I always di in on combos because I don’t want to risk diing out a kill move”, if you always hold in and refuse to ever mix up your di better players will consistently punish you for it and on average get much higher reward than if you mixed up your di. In any platform fighter it’s never good to do the same thing forever because you are scared of something the opponent isn’t currently doing.
@@BossHogLive except there is an indication to when a drift di out of a combo is safe from getting kill there is nothing in a grab break out. You only have to choose between dying or taking dmg ofc you would choose dmg everytime. Even if you manage to break out everytime, you are winning the coin flip not with actual skill
@@dankl3ss194 I want to reiterate that special pummel does not just “make you die”. I don’t think you have an understanding of the system or typical fighting game risk reward if you think it’s ALWAYS better to try and break out of a special pummel. Yes you avoid giving them the highest reward they can get from a grab, but only if they are also using special pummel every time. If you go into Rivals 2 with this mentality you are going to be abused by players who realise you are letting them get a normal pummel every time.
As a massive fan of platform fighters and especially Rivals 1, while I do agree with some of your points, I don't with others, though I can see where you're coming from. I'm still not used to drift DI being removed, and I totally agree that the defensive game in regards to stuff like knockdowns and the air/offstage game feel partially lackluster. Same with the new specials not being utilized as effectively on characters like Kragg and Wrastor when compared to the likes of Ranno, Maypul, and Loxodont.
I think my biggest disagreement is in regards to the returning cast. With the exception of a good chunk of Wrastor's kit, I think most of their movesets are fantastic, and save for a Ranno DStrong here and a Clairen NSpecial there, they didn't need any fundamental changes when making the transition between games besides tweaked stats and attack values. Zetterburn still feels like a fiery spacie, Ranno still feels like a precise combo ninja, and Kragg's now the grappler he was always destined to be. And even if you don't like the returning cast, we got two awesome new character designs in Fleet and Loxodont with more inevitably coming in the future.
Ultimately though, I respect the direction Rivals 2 is heading in because it's the platform fighter that Dan Fornace and his team have wanted to make since day 1. They grew up with Melee and PM and that's the torch they want to carry, and Dan has said he wanted to play with shields and grabs in Rivals 1, but couldn't due to how small he had to scope the project initially. While that lead to some cool stuff for that game, parries and no ledges aren't what they feel defines Rivals. To them, and to me as well, Rivals has always been about, well, the rivals; these absolutely awesome and unique character designs with mechanical synergy and gameplay depth the likes of which I've yet to see in any other fighting game.
So yeah Rivals 2's mechanics are gonna be different from Rivals 1 and its characters are gonna stay mostly the same, and that's ok by me. It's not like 1 is gonna be worthless once 2 releases anyways, just like how Melee didn't die once the other Smash games came out, or how people still love and play 3rd Strike despite Street Fighter changing rapidly after it. And even though Rivals 1 won't be officially supported much, it'll still get awesome new stuff put out by the workshop scene. I'm sure Rivals 2 also gonna get even better as time goes on, both through beta testing, as well as whatever fun stuff Aether Studios has cooking for new characters and the story mode. They've shown with Rivals 1 that they know what they're doing when it comes to making games.
I totally agree with you about shields. Parries feel way more satisfying than blocking attacks with a shield.
I agree with some of the criticisms here, but i really dont agree with the "Hollow imitation" narrative you have going on and find those terms rather reductive and unnecessary.
I like this comment. I feel like a good amount of the points in this video are valid. But many frustrations come from how it feels like defaming rivals instead of constructive feedback.
@@kelbym3710 Yeah the real issue with this video is how it's framed more so than the points themselves. Especially for a game in beta months from release being made by a team that is well known to take community feedback into account as they adjust things.
Yeah I liked the video but I didn't like that wording.
My main issue is that doing anything in rivals 2 feels like theres a small but noticeable barrier. Rivals 1 feels like absolute butter. Everything happens as I want and I always feel in control. Its the best feeling game I think ive ever played.
The lack of a ledge made recovery so much more creative than other platform fighters.
I mean as a Ranno main it kinda feels almost the exact same other than bubble not being infinite anymore.
Brawlhalla also has no ledge
most platform fighters don't have a ledge. The only franchise that I know that uses a ledge is Smash. Brawlhalla and multiversus don't.
@@mariothemii Jump Ultimate Stars has it too but I don't know about other platform fighters.
@D_YellowMadness NASB has it too, and Rushdown Revolt. Also most ppl need to realize alot of platform fighters wanted to have ledge but they didn't know how to program it.
I think this was a fairly good critique and put a important light on the key differences between rivals 1 and 2. I especially appreciate this, as I came to rivals 1 for the same reasons as you gave
I'm always pleased to see fans do critiques of the games they love. Usually the most passionate fans have the most well researched critiques, and even if I don't always agree with the conclusions, your contributions to the conversation are appreciated!
rivals has had a rocky history since the jump to 3d
I think it's more so the fact there are a lot more eyes on the game compared to the first game that had a relatively small following. With a lot of people anticipating the game comes with a lot of unsolicited critiquing.
And Dan was a Sonic main in Brawl...
IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER
It's all been downhill ever since rivals 3D blast
Since the jump to 3d... like this one game? I'm confused what you meant by that.
@@xelic1996 it's based on an iconic sonic joke about his transition into 3D
Im glad the two games are very different, because I would hate for the sequal to overwrite the old game and kill the workshop community.
Fair but at that point if the original is gonna outlive the new one why not just keep expanding on the original
They both can exist separately this way @@infectedanimal9830
@@infectedanimal9830 Because not all devs settle down into 1 game and a lot of the times they come up with new ideas or want something different. I mean the devs pretty quickly wanted to make a none fighter game not long after completing Rivals and then they wanted a 3d Rivals game. They aren't tied up and forced to do something specific like big companies do so when they want to change things up they will.
This is a fair point.
@@wintereclipse3263 Why not just make a different game then instead of a sequel that's trying its best to not be a sequel & instead trying to be an inferior version of a mod for a game that already got made 5 times?
I like rivals 2 but I completely agree that it does not feel like rivals 1, and feels really homogeneous to other plat fighters and way less interesting than the first game
I would pick rivals 1 over rivals 2 any day
I saw the title and was honestly expecting to really disagree with this, but after seeing this, yeah, I kinda mostly agree. As a fairly casual player, I wondered why DI didn’t feel good and didn’t realize that drift DI didn’t exist, and the getup options feel awful and slow, with the tech window not feeling very open.
Correction: normal pummel is actually really good for a lot of characters, and can often be better than special pummels depending on the situation. While it might seem like they just do a bit of damage, if you look closely you can see it removes the yellow glow from the opponent. That's their grab armor that protects them from getting chaingrabbed. In other words, normal pummels allow you to chaingrab opponents while dealing 8% per pummel, which is huge. Many characters can also do this with their special pummel, but those specials usually do less damage and the dynamic of normal vs special creates a mixup either way. For some characters like kragg, their unique special pummels create a really cool dynamic with their normal pummel since they lead to completely different follow-ups. One more note: drift DI does sort of exist in other platform fighters like smash (and likely rivals 2). You can still input your DI after the first hit, but it's much weaker than R1's drift DI.
I hope someday they go back to fix some of the netcode issues with rivals 1 qwq
rivals 1 working spectator mode come home 😔
Yeah, I love Rivals 2, and some of the changes I was wary about (shields, grabs, etc) are starting to grow on me, but mechanically Rivals 1 will always be better. The thing I loved most about it is that it felt like everything that happened to me, good or bad, was my doing. Drift DI was by far the biggest reason for that, and I too hope it makes a return.
8:16 In games that add shielding I'd like the forcefield type, but only if it was one side of the character it defended, rather than an orb of temporary invincibility, a semicircle so you have to turn and try and time a good attack if someone leaps behind but also allowing you to mitigate damage to think for a bit.
I like this a lot since it mimics how traditional fighters handle blocking. Would indirectly discourage being too defensive since the opponent has more ways to open you up, specifically via cross-ups, which would result in Rivals 2 emphasizing spacing as a defensive strategy like Rivals 1 did. Some people may like that, others may not.
Honestly these criticisms are really valid, as a sequel to rivals 1 they don't really build on what unique elements rivals 1 added to the platform fighter genre such as it's hyper focus on aggressive play and movement over defense mechanics which made the game feel surprisingly more like a platformer than a fighting game. And the new mechanics they did introduce don't feel impactful, it's all exclusive on a knockdown state which is a state you're generally encouraged never to be in so it never feels like it gets any use or adds anything to that interaction. And I agree on how they should have changed more of the character's kits in Rivals 2, though in my opinion I wish they took a second pass to the character's general design based on their lore, every fighting game have characters who's fighting style who reflects the character's powers, personality, and story, such as how a character like Street Fighter 6's Marisa has a playstyle based around pankration as she's a person who believes themselves to be a descendant of roman warriors and practices a fighting style to carry it's legacy, while someone like Zetterburn in rivals who in lore is a loyal general in a Roman styled society doesn't reflect any of that passion or dedication to his society as he kept his rivals 1 fighting style where he's largely a brawl wolf parallel. Whenever I try to introduce my friends to the game they don't ever stick around as there's never a character they can attach too, even my partner who doesn't like fighting games at least has some interest in Street Fighter because they have crazy characters like AKI and Juri in their roster but rivals has largely no characters with that staying power to make a casual audience stick around.
I think you make some great points here, some of the changes and "additions" made in Rivals 2 are either unnecessary or not tuned enough to warrant their inclusion, getup specials especially. I would've replaced getup specials with perhaps a Shield Special of sorts that gives you something to do out of shield quickly, but uses up the shield's stamina.
Also 14:22 is a really good idea, as not only would it help warrant the normal pummel more, it would give the opponent more time to try to escape the grab, as I feel like casual players will have a hard time reacting quick enough to getting grabbed to make a guess, eapecially since mashing out of grab is probably their gut reaction.
having a sequel be significantly different from the original is a good thing and this way of thinking comes from the absolutely cooked consumer mindset that a sequel should kill the original
this is not the case. they can better coexist when they're different. I'm happy Dan got to make the game he always wanted to.
I think for a multiplayer game this only really works if both games stay alive and active. If sequels are significantly different and the previous game is borderline unplayable because the playerbase just isn't there that's a problem
@@SilverRyuu with workshop and a very different meta they both will have their own niche and can stand in their own separately
@skippyasqueeze Workshop works in the case of Rivals to keep it alive (especially since it's not strictly tied to a console that will become outdated), but I'm speaking more generally. Sometimes you have stuff like Melee that will live forever, and sometimes you have Smash4 that faded into obscurity as soon as Ultimate came out. You never really know. Making a sequel to a multiplayer game radically different is a huge risk. Especially when sometimes changes are made just for the sake of being different instead of to actually improve
@@SilverRyuu we can't stop creating art because we're afraid that other earlier art will become ignored. Nothing in rivals two is being made for the sake of being different. It's being made to realize the vision dan was very vocal about having before rivals 1 was even finished. Yes sometimes games die, but making games different gives it more opportunity to thrive both in concert than having one just be the same thing as the first but 2.0. It's a smart decision.
@@SilverRyuu Doesn't the Ult example just play into what skippy was saying though? Ultimate didn't make much of a change to the formula from 4, they are by far the 2 most similar smash games. From almost everyone's perspective I've seen in the community it was "Why play smash 4 when ultimate is just what 4 had but bigger and better?" And that was the original point he was making. If you make a sequel just the same but better, there is never a reason to go back other than the novelty. Yes straying too far from what it was originally could alienate the playerbase, but that's the line you gotta dance around when making a sequel. In this case the stark differences between Rivals 1&2 mechanically could very well lead to both communities helping eachother grow.
I really hope they make it easier to mod
As someone who has spent a ton of time in both Smash and Rivals
Rivals 2 has me excited for the future of the genre
It is a pretty huge departure from Rivals 1, but that's ok
Coming from the perspective of a melee player, I get that shields might be a big change but trust me: there is a TON of depth in the shield mechanic. Shielding is definitely less interesting in a game like ult which doesn't have wavedash and shielddrop, but in a game with those mechanics, you can use shield in a ton of creative ways
10:55 This is not relevant to the discussion but ayo wrastor neutral B is used all the time. It's his best recovery move and can be fastfallen.
I was about to say this, comboing into it to kill off the top too
But I like PM, more for me I guess?
I tried Rivals 2 on Parsec during the beta weekend and I really like how it plays… though that’s probably cuz I love playing Smash Ultimate as well lmao. I’m still gonna play Rivals 1 tho, cuz I love that game
Hearing your thoughts in this video was really interesting to hear. I didn’t have much time to play Rivals 2 so I didn’t think too much about the stuff you brought up
When I was playing the beta, I definitely ran into the same issues, especially drift DI and wall jumping. I hope these things get reverted or at least altered. Very good video for informing people about these changes.
Love this video. It's sad to see Rivals 2 reject many of the concepts that people loved in Rivals 1 that didn't push away casuals like Drift DI and strong wavedashes, opting to mold the game into Smash rather than seeing how those mechanics could work with and shape the mechanics that they've borrowed from it.
honestly this video changed a lot about how I have felt about rivals 2, but just like fraymakers I hope this game learns a lot and takes its criticism very seriously
Despite this game having ledges and shields to give more defensive options. they managed to make the defensive state feel worse than rivals 1 where your only option is to run away or parry.
Wavedash out of shield?
Attack out of shield?
Parry?
Jump out of shield?
Shield dropping?
...the only thing I'm not sure about is shield angling.
normal pummel lets you chain grab. its very important that you can break it!!
Yeah they talked about the benefits of normal pummel in some live stream they did, people probably just haven't figured it out yet because of the beta lasting like 2 days
What are the two characters in the code?
After seeing Combo Devil's octagonal shields, I now think every platform fighters needs to have it. It's like if shield tilting was actually useful.
Shield tilting is actually useful, specially if your shield is already a bit beaten up
I did not realize how much I didn't want knockdown and ledge grabs in Rivals until this video. Off stage was an interesting scuffle and ledge grabbing looks like it simplifies it a lot more than it should. And with knockdowns, maybe if it acted more like a mixup to mess with timing like in Dragonball fighters (delay getup and being immune until standing) I would like it more maybe.
Grabs are a bit of a mixed bag. I sorta like this but not really? Can't tell you how many ppl I've gotten from them mashing out of my grab in Smash. So it being this match the attack to escape helps make it consistent. But it just being 2 options is kinda bad. I think having 2-3 different normal pummel types (high/mid/low) and 1 special could help make normal pummel more appealing. Personally instead of a grab, I would rather it be a burst that acted like a parry and shattered opponents shields at the cost of some of your own. Would help keep things moving instead of a guessing minigame.
However, I will die on the hill that is my need for shields. I hated the parry in Rivals1. It felt inconsistent so I never really used it much during a game. It made me always be aggressive at all times and that just isn't my playstyle. Hell, I'll take chip percentage in exchange for no knockback. Just give me a consistent defensive option that isn't constantly rolling like a milktank or wavedashing like I snorted several lines of pixy stix.
Whilst I don't agree with most of your points thus far, I fully agree that drift DI should be a mechanic in Rivals 2.
The thing I'm most worried about is the knockdowns, I experienced them first in Fraymakers and they mess so much with my brawlhalla wake-up focused mind. Not being able to move normally immediately felt horrible.
I still mash dodge-in the moment I get hit in rivals and in Rivals 2 I'll be mashing parry while in knockdown state.
Have you tried not playing brawlhalla?
@@professionaldogblogger587 quit for a few weeks, play for a couple days, quit for a week, play for a day.
Can't get enough of it's quick air dodges.
You know I thought I was going crazy playing the backer weekend, I was going back and forth between rivals 2 being like either smash 4 or PM while knowing rivals 1 was a more extreme melee. If you just go in the game tells you nothing, this is the first time I heard there was a special pummel, I knew there was a special ledge get up and a knock down but the game doesn't help in that, not even lvl 9 bots, which were kinda bad? I had a fleet lvl9 bot roll behind me and down strong opposite of me while I was just standing still. And speaking of fleet she does have a small amount of sauce, I learned you can tap jump with a jump button and hold down with an analog stick to get an instant air float and not all moves work, especially if you are on the stage proper but her back air works and that seems to be her best killing aerial move and you can do it out of shield too. I dub it the pillz aerial because Ive heard no one else talk about it
If i may go on a small tangent, the screenshot where you blurred out the new characters seems to be in alphabetical order. with a quick google search you can find that the letters between f and k, are G, H, I, and J. we can use these to figure out the name of the blurred character by seeing which characters from rivals one have these letters. By process of elimination, this leaves Forsburn or Hodan. We know Forsburn is already confirmed, but i dont think that a blur of that size would have covered up his whole name. no, i believe it is safe to assume that the funny monkey will be returning for rivals 2. not only is there a stage with his face in it, his theme is ON the kickstarter website as a preview. with the provided evidence i think its all but confirmed that the king of onsen himself will be in rivals 2.
I really liked everything about Rivals 1. The only reason I didn’t stick with it is because barely anyone played it especially since the announcement of Rivals 2. I‘ve been very sceptical of a lot of the changes you‘ve pointed out especially because that’s what primarily set it apart from smash bros but since it was backed by people i thought were trustworthy and a lot of people seemed to really like it I just thought I‘d trust the process and I was also really hyped for Rivals 2. You‘ve basically described everything I was worried about. Don‘t get me wrong I‘m definitely gonna try it out and I am very excited for it but I think my expectations are a lot more grounded now. (I was also a big fan of the pixel art aesthetic and don’t really like how the 3d graphics look but that’s just preference) [also rip me as an ori main :( ]
After having played RoA2 I gotta say I really needed some time for the game to grow on me but ultimately I really enjoy it. At the beginning there was something that really frustrated me about the game. At first I couldn’t really put my finger on what exactly it was but after rewatching this video it‘s 100% the lack of drift DI. There was always a weird sense of lack of agency especially when getting launched directly upwards. This still feels quite bad but I gotta say that I really like a lot of things about RoA2 and I will definitely keep playing it.
i'm happy about this video, it's especially important since unlike most fighting games, rivals's creators are much more active with the community so there's a good chance things will not stay as they are
I went into this this caution, but i completely agree with all the points here. although it still feels like rivals to me, and i like the additions such as ledges. but the opinions here are shown super constructively. also i forgot about drift di. it is stupid that it isnt in the game
Damn, calling rivals 2 shields 1-dimensional and shields bad in general i WILD.
Having shields & parries is amazing. Rivals 1 only having parry as a defensive mechanic, now that is 1-dimensional.
I have found that shield breaks are way more common in rivals 2, making the defensive slow style you are talking about WAY riskier.
@@Miphos Not true because you can just powershield meaning if you break your shield you just suck especially with how fast they regen. Zetta was spitting. Bubble shields are a plague on the genre that hurt it so much. The risk vs reward is heavily scued in favor of not approaching and spamming shields cause you can't heavily punish defense beyond grabs which oh wait grabs are kinda slow and requires guesswork while the shielder can just mindlessly hold it even and then retaliate after the opponent's attack comes out and gets blocked.
@@dave9515scrubquote level: omega
Please watch some competitive melee
I'm going through the video, trying to find a timestamp to show shields being lame, and I can't choose, because every time either player shields, it looks slow and boring. In rivals 1, they'd be playing the game instead
@@hole1274 in rivals one they’d be running around not touching each other because they don’t have a good defensive option like shields
Why am i comparing it so much to rivals one? Cuz its the sequel maybe?
Correct me if im wrong as i haven't played the game yet but with your proposition to fixing grabbing issue wont that cause another issue? If someone waits instead of guessing the first time the person holding them can just toss them after instead of doing another pummel or grab so that they dont have to worry about the grab'e guessing the second time. Leading the to the person getting grabbed to try to guess the first time. Not guessing correctly sounds way more punishing if you dare to guess wrong or not guess at all
in Killer Instinct, where the mechanic was taken from, the idea is that you want to try to breaker as quick as you can to minimize damage, but ultimately you just want to have a correct breaker. I think that there is a mindgame of not guessing meaning that the opponent *has* to throw that could create a very interesting mixup game
However, apparently the normal pummel does have some additional properties I was not aware of, so I'll have to play around with those next time the beta is available
@@Zetta330 ah I see, thank you for the insight, I actually didn't know that this idea came from killer instinct 🤔
I will say that after trying the game online, before playing a full on 7 hours or offline friendlies, playing it offline just makes everything feel that little bit better which I think it definitely needs, all the same i absolutely loved my time with the game, but the video is really well put together and I absolutely understand those who didnt have as good a time as me.
Much love from NZ ♡
*of offline friendlies
This video seems to be an expression of my exact opinions
Rivals 2 looks like it’s gonna be a great game that I am legitimately excited for but it’s not gonna be a continuation of the first
This is gonna age like milk imo, the game isn't even out of beta lmao
Yeah, I don't understand making a video complaining about a game that's not even close to finished yet.
@@catisreckless4647 Well ideally the devs would listen to the critiques and keep improving the game prior to release. So if the video ends up aging like milk, that's like the best case scenario theoretically.
@@rud5101stop, you're making sense and using logic. You're supposed to consume product and get excited for next product.
You think shields are bad?
While in Smash except for 64, shields are pretty OP, not having shields is a turn off for me. Like Multiversus.
I think if shields covered one side or had more blockstun it would be better.
If shields worked more like blocks and had more stun like block stun in fighters i think they would be interesting but how they usually get implemented it ends up being a super boring mechanic that has no risk and heavily rewards defense while being extremely boring to see and use. Rivals 2 shields are a lot like Smash ultimate shields (not a compliment BTW).
@@dave9515 I feel the same way towards parrying and rivals 2 has 2 versions of parrying.
@@luckymanx2978 You know what i can say fair to that. Parrying does need more reworking and tuning. (both versions) I also agree with that sentiment too. I really don't get why devs don't make the RPS systems of platfighters more fair and fun and interactive in general. I never understood why neutral in platfighters were more boring in comparison in teh past but thinking on it every new platfighter release i get it now. There really is no point in approaching really. You only do it out of necessity if you are losing and even the schmooving is all just defensive play to try and get the opponent to make a move first thats risky that you can capitalize on. There is no back and forth or neutral skips like other fighters would have because stage control and the RPS balance between offense and defense is screwed against offense and heavily rewarding defense even compared to the most defensive traditional fighters. The tug of war game is not present cause of this as well since there is no way to reliably whiff punish most of the time or bait with a whiff.
@@dave9515 exactly! Who ever attacks first loses.
I think you should only parry aerial attacks, however aerial attacks should be slightly plus on block or -1,-2.
Grounded moves should be minus but they are not parriable.
Third. There is no grounded parry, doing so will remove the weakness of parry.
I think Melee has the most engaging neutral as aerials are slightly plus in some cases, but melee neutral has its flaws.
Shields in general are a very lackluster fighting game mechanic.
I hope they add something to replace drift di if they hate it so much. Maybe like a 1 air time thing where you can increase the knockback you take
Rivals of Aether 1 is the greatest platform fighter of all time and it’s not even close. The game is like crack once you start to get the hang of it
Rivals 1 defense is mostly about footsies. If Rivals 2 can find a way for shielding to reward footsies in the same way Rivals 1 does but still have shielding as an option I think it could make for a very good system. I think part of the reason Melee is such a beloved game to this day is because shielding is a bad option. Shields barely cover the character and quickly deteriorate letting offense shine. (Pun intended). I wouldn't want Rivals 2 to have small shields in the same way Melee does but I'm sure that if the Rivals dev team looks into shields more they could make a very compelling system.
Agree mostly about the shield talk except Powershielding is a thing in melee and if it got optimized you wouldn't think so highly of melee's shield mechanics. Bubble shields are way too good no matter what and melee has a lot of jank so we should not try to replicate that game.
I think characters need better shield pressure tools to alleviate this, Zetter's entire moveset feels unsafe against shield and I don't really know what the answer is to it other than empty jump grab rn.
Basically, if this game came out first, it would've been better, it's at tue quality a first game would have been expected to be with Rivals classic being good enough to be it's own sequel!
as someone who has put a lot of time in 1, it definitely feels like a sequel and I don't see how it wouldn't be considered that
I disagree with most of what you said, but I can still understand where your coming from on most things. The only thing I dont really get is you saying the older characters dont fit with the engine and new mechanics. While I can kind of understand that, I feel like it also just doesn’t make much sense seeing as the first 4 characters they made on the new engine are literally from Rivals 1. Which to me, means that the game was built off of these older characters. So I dont really understand how the characters that the engine was made for, dont work in Rivals 2. Like I get that their moves might not mix well with shields and throws, but also if the game started out with mainly returning characters would the shields and grabs not be facilitated towards the older movesets? With my time in Rivals 2 I really enjoyed each character and learning the new ways to play each of them. I think if you play the characters exactly how you would in Rivals 1, you’re gonna end up getting beat out by the new mechanics and playstyle of Rivals 2.
From my perspective, it feels that the engine was NOT made for the characters. A lot of the choices made to the game feel like they were done with the actual characters being an afterthought. Grabs are actually a perfect example of this. NONE of the returning characters have a throw that interacts with their gimmick with the exception of zetterburn, who's forward throw ignites the opponent.. on a kill throw. In addition, quite a few characters have new special moves that don't really interact with their existing specials (wrastor being the most notable example). I would have loved to see how creative the devs could get with these new tools, and was dissapointed to see they really didn't.
What I'd change:
» Shields shouldn't be able to block strong attacks unless it's a spot shield (meaning you guess when they decide to hit their strong, which is satisfying and should be rewarded :) )
» I'm with ya about pummels: 14:21
» Add drift DI back, even if reduced compared to the original, some control is better than nothing...
» Would it hurt if they *tried* letting players use the ledge AND have the old wall jumps from ROA1? Not sure it would actually be as OP as it sounds, but surely it's worth trying..?
I'm really looking forward to the sequel to my favourite platform fighter, I'll be looking out for these things when I eventually play it for myself :)
Really loved this video, some of the negative comments are just fucking shitty smash players
I agree with the complaint about DI it doesn’t need to be good just responsive
Homestly, im surprised that Rivals is even getting a sequel.
Being 3D heavily limits mod potential, if it exists at all; and it's probablu non-controversial to say that the mod support is the prime driver of RoA's popularity.
i haven't looked at this game since i saw they were throwing the sprite based style into the trash and looking at it now it looks like they just mpdded rivals characters into project m or something rather than an actual followup to rivals, i still would want to get it once it comes out to support people who made one of my favorite games but idk if i would like this nearly as much as the original game
I think this video was actually pretty constructive and well made, even as a minor fan of rivals 1. I'm confindent a lot of polish will be made to make the game feel smoother, theyre entering the polish stage of development
Who are the next 2 characters?
I half agree with the sheilds complaint. It feels like it needs something for that extra oomph.
It's too late to alter things now but I feel like a cool change would be taking a page out of Fraymaker's book but with a Rivals twist.
Your shield only protects the side you're facing, while your parry covers your entire hitbox.
Add that on top of it taking you longer to recharge your shield and your shield consumption being much faster, with the punishment being you can only parry until the shield is recharged instead of stunning the player for a bit, and you've got yourself a cool risk vs. reward mechanic.
That's not to say what we have right now is bad, It's just a idea for that something to spice up the formula.
Nah if that happened then parries need hard nerfs cause no world its right to heavily reward a player for abusing a resource and getting punished for it. If your shield has to regen you deserve to suffer for misusing the resource or else there is no risk to shielding. The idea literally does not help anything at all imo. Aggro deserves rewards too you know. If you break a shield you deserve a reward not punishment. Parry is a reward for breaking your shield and thats stupid in this hypothetical.
I do think its entirely reasonable for Rivals 1 players to be upset about the change in direction to something more like PM. That being said though, I kind of predicted a lot of this. Dan Fornace had said multiple times that several elements of R1 design were a product of technical limitations, such as no ledges, no shields, etc. That being said, I agree that it is undeniable that the old characters feel a bit wonky in the new engine with the minor exception of Zetterburn.
Do R1 players reserve the right to be upset about the changes? Absolutely. No question. They grew to love something, even if it wasn't "supposed" to exist. I feel for them. But, I personally feel that for the longevity of the franchise and the development team as a whole, translating the Rivals patented character design into a more universally understandable engine was a good move. I personally think that the mechanics added are actually all better, but I don't think it's unreasonable to feel otherwise.
I also do think it's worth mentioning that R1 is not going to disappear because of the existence of R2. R1 also has very robust workshop support which really helps. So, I hope that people won't forget that it exists. It's still a great game and deserves to be played.
Your idea for how grab could work is genuinely really good and exciting
I understand why you say this and i can agree on some leveles, but rivals of aether 2 needed to happen. The original game wasnt as big as most other games and wouldve dissapeared into void without a huge revamp so a sequal was a good choice for branding especially for teaming up with offbrand games for more publicity. I personally like the new movesets and abilities to shield and special grab, it adds even more variety for combo potentials. I think your points are fair and valid but atleast when the game releases on oct23 make a new video seeing if you still have theses opinions.
Offbrand is run by the guy who Said "Stop Killing Games" is BAD for the industry, and is a complete fucking tool. I'm not too happy about the team-up.
I think I’ve heard that the normal pummel actually removes grab armor after throws so if you get off a normal pummel you can chain grab.
I've never played this "Rivals" game but the sequal looks really good even if the gameplay isn't the same I feel like the sequal will draw in more players.
pretty damn good video, i don't think this game will be bad on final release, hell, as a PM fan, this is right up my alley, but losing some things that made rivals 1 so unique does hurt, though, in a way, it also helps R1 stand out more and give me reasons to keep going back and playing it, even after R2's release
While there were a few good points I disagree heavily with the new pummel system being bad or unexpressive. Regular pummels remove grab invincibility which allows for chaingrabs. As the game gets optimized people will definitely start abusing that more which will make grab breaking with A just as important as grab breaking with B.
The kind of game that you seem to like already sorta exists: YOMI Hustle. Insanely fast, tactical chess-like fighting game about making super flash anime fights while beating your opponent to a pulp.
I dont agree with your take on shielding I do think shielding is a really good mechanic it just hasn't been implemented well yet. I havent gotten to play rivals 2 yet so idk if it's in there but Ult took a lot of steps to make shielding more interactive with parrying and holding b to angle your shield. I think it would be a near perfect system if they didnt also give most of the cast ridiculously broken oos.
Thats not the only issue the shields are way too big for the whole cast in ultimate and they regen super fast to the point there is no risk in spamming shields regardless. Bubble shields are a plague on this genre of games. They don't work and neuter aggressive options heavily with a free 0 risk get out of jail free card. Other than this i do heavily agree with you btw. Also you might have forgotten but early ultimate it took a really long time to regen a shield when it was low and the community unanimously complained about it resulting in the regen of shields we have now in ultimate. OOS options is a really dumb concept in general and should just be removed.
@@dave9515 I don't agree because the way shields lock your movement is already enough of a weakness, not to mention that shield damage is already pretty high. I'm also not opposed to oos, I think the change where grab oos was nerfed was really good but with how fast and safe a lot of oos options are it's overtuned. (Especially when they're given to zoners and swordies) I like the dynamic of having to pressure shields and how that adds to the dynamic between grounded moves and aerials, so I'm fine with shields being good as long as you're in a disadvantageous position while using them.
@@dave9515 Bubble shields themselves are not a plague on the genre. Rivals 2 could still use some tuning of them yes, but it isn't an unsalvageable mechanic. You are locked in place and are vulnerable to grabs, which against some characters leads to their most powerful combo's and leads to dangerous situations. I would like better tools for pressuring shields mainly myself.
Half the comments are saying it's more like PM, I'd say that's a great point.... if I knew what the heck PM stands for besides Prime Meridian.
It stands for Project M, a mod for Super Smash Bros. Brawl that makes the game more like Melee
@BlastoiseMaster it's also unironically the best smash game!
As a anime fighter fan, i LOVE rivals 2. It feels like an actual anime like fighting game minus the high low and cross ups put into a plat fighter. I kinda disliked Rivals 1 because it really feels like a footsie simulator rather than a fighting game. Yes, footsies are a great part of all fighting games but rivals 1 imo fails to highlight the spectacle of it by not having a real defensive mechanic. It's missing the layers of adaption like pressuring someone's block, conditioning for grabs, etc, that turns me off completely.
I completely understand your and many other rivals 1 fans stance on the game, but personally for me rivals 2 feels VERY nice as a fighting game fan.
I always felt like Rivals had a great unique identity for casuals compared to Smash Ultimate with:
- The gorgueous pixel art
- The very agressive defensive mechanics
- Workshop support (Great viral marketing, funny at parties)
And this sequel doesn't really seem to embrace any of these. It's just so weird, it feels like they instead just want to make it more like Smash Bros since they got a higher budget, almost feels like the pixel art and parry system in the first game was just there for budget reasons. Why would a casual player play Rivals 2 over Smash Ultimate? Of course they should make the game they want to make (Very clearly it's by PM mega fans for PM mega fans) But I really can't see this game ever selling even close to the anmount ROA1 did, and to me it feels like they let go of a lot of what I felt like was ROA1's unique identity to replace it with Smash Bros. Worship. And I feel like all the Smash Bros. worshipping in the dev teams is really holding platform fighters as a unique genre back IMO.
Eh I mean heres the thing rivals 2 is going to have the bigger player base iv played the beta and it was fun also no it didn't feel like a smash clone it still felt like it's own thing Roa2 also had a successful kickstarter as well like 1 million which is alot for a platform fighter
If you can still use mod characters the game will be fine, that is in my opinion the selling point of rivals (as a casual)
i guess is that the game is prob gonna be a big breath of fresh air to smash players but fans of rivals 1 will feel like its less of the game they fell in love with. Imo I think if the game's title was something that wasnt just "the sequel to the first rivals game" because it seems good just too different to be an upgrade its more of a sidegrade/option
I’m finding a lot of these arguments to just be untrue after I’ve played the beta. I’m sorry you don’t like it.
I can imagine that the devs thought about this game in the context of competitive melee. And while this is almost guaranteed with platform fighters, they probably especially focused on the melee aspect in the game design. In the past the competitive Melee/PM scene had a lot of trouble and maybe they wanted to make a contribution to the community by making a game which is design and mechanic-wise in a similar context, so that players wont have to worry about Nintendo
I bought the game last night. We're not the best at platform games but fighting games are our bonding time with me and my son and we love Rivals 1. But when we tried Rivals 2, it was so foreign that we felt we didn't have complete control over our characters, hitboxes were weird and sometimes don't register. We were so much looking forward to the sequel, but unfortunately we have to refund the game because it wasn't fun to play for the both of us.
Honestly, it almost feels like Smash has a stranglehold on platform fighters as a genre. Whenever a new one gets announced, so many people immediately feel the need to compare it to Smash, and worse case scenario, they call them "smash killers", which just ends up bringing people's expectations up way too high. In some aspects, Rivals 2 feels like it's almost making an active attempt to quell comments like this by making it closer to Melee and PM, and while this works for some, it just makes the game seem like "Project M 2" to me, as opposed to "Rivals of Aether 2". Chances are I'll still enjoy it when it comes out, but it is honestly disappointing that it's becoming more similar to Smash instead of pushing itself further in its own direction.
bring back drift DI!
You applauded Rivals 1 for changing the platform fighting formula and then criticize Rivals 2 for changing it again
I understand that you feel like it's not being true to itself by changing ledge/off stage mechanics, using different DI system, tech chasing, etc, but I think it's perfect for the Melee/PM community
With what's going on with Nintendo and Melee/PM, this game makes a lot of sense for that player base
I agree that the music seems like it doesn't belong
Also, some of the character model faces look weird to me
TLDR rivals 1 fans wish rivals 2 was a legitimate sequel to their favorite game
It very much is still a legitimate sequel though. The mechanics that have changed the game so far were not part of the series' core identity.
@xelic1996 and isnt that everything though? The core identity is now "just another smash bros clone" ...I'm not saying rivals 2 will be boring. The gameplay looks awesome as a melee players that barely touched rivals 1. But I can see why rivals 1 players are upset that the game they loved was turned into a game heavily influenced by smash bros.
@@Frichilsasta08 No. The core identity has always been the character designs and how they have a kit that by design combos together with unique interactions more akin to a moba than most platform fighters. Things like no ledges, shields, or grabs were purely because of the small team and lack of know-how at the time of RoA being developed. This is the game Dan always intended to make.
@xelic1996 then what is it about rivals 2 that rivals 1 players are not enjoying about the sequel?
@@xelic1996 the core identity of rivals is definitely influenced both by the character designs and movesets AND by the unique gameplay elements with relation to other platform fighters
the feel of rivals is the main reason people loved it or didn't love it, and there's a reason why melee players who didn't like the last game prefer this one. the mechanics are an essential part of the identity, and they've changed lots now
I haven't played rivals 2 just yet, but when the first gameplay trailer dropped, m heart sank over the inclusion of shields, that was the one thing that kept me coming back to the original rivals was because of how the parry mechanic worked and why it felt so much more valuable rushing down my opponent.
If you're interested to see how other games attempted to evolve defensive play, maybe take a look at nasb2? the shield mechanics in that game I found to be really fun and punished defensive play if you were sitting at ledge, but also depending if you're holding the slime button in shield, you can choose weather or not you want the shield to be pushed away from your opponent, acting more like a normal smash shield as a sacrifice for your meter.
the game would be really fun if it wasnt for the expensive dlc smh
Iv played it was fun even with shields parries are still in the game tho I think you should still give it a shot
It's really sad to never see nasb2 be brought to these conversations, it may has its problems, but it is a genuinely innovative platfighter people don't look into. During the entire shield section I was just thinking of the nasb2 shield and how it is basically a more indepth pm shield, genuinely one of my favourite takes of it
Even after so long since the beta and this video i still don't understand Ledge Hogging bwing introduced. Ledges in general ate a drastic change but i get it as a way to make recovery safer... untill the opponent grabs the ledge and now you are left with near zero recovery tools. Why trade a very dynamic off stage system for the most one-sided, unsatisfying systems in the genre?
The thing is, even as much as I played Rivals 2's Beta and love the game to death... I feel like all the points you made are correct.
Perhaps it didn't feel as different of a game to me since most of the platform fighters I've played in the last 2 years are Rivals, P+, and HDR, and so going from those to Rivals 2 might not feel too bad. (And I mostly played Kragg and Clairen in the beta, arguably the least different feeling characters)
But the game definitely has some room to grow. Drift DI (allegedly) is still in the game, just not in the beta, so that could still change. But I agree with pummel attacks/specials being too in favor of special pummels. And Kragg getup special is not super good at all, yeah. And wavedashes being much weaker doesn't feel great. Initially I thought I'd disagree with the video but I'm glad to hear your thoughts on it, and I have some hope for the game to do better.
The blocking thing is biggest, but it's the reason i picked up rivals 2 whereas i could not get into rivals 1 because i need a shield button
They hated you for being right
5:29 idk they might add it sometime hopefully
Wait just a darn guzzling minute. There was a BETA for Rivals 2?
Hitfalling also feels less fluid and not as good generally. The game is a lot less generous with buffering hitfalls, and on top of that, I'm not sure if I'm the only one that noticed but I believe the mechanic where hitting an aerial reduces endlag might have been changed?
I enjoyed the beta a lot. You have convinced me on the game would be better with drift di. Upstrong fleet chases being confirms at higher enough percent is funny though i would like if it was harder / more nuanced.
I like fleet, i would switch if someone better is added but i do like them a lot & are my choice of main for now.
I dont mind the chracters being mostly the same since i like them already (notable i like wrastor) but do agree with you zetter pummel sucks & some new specials could be more intresting better. (Clairens new special doenst feel that special to me like rivals 1 currnetly, it feels too much just like another normal or strong, air grab back would be nice)
(Will mention i played a lot of P+ for a while so i got use to the mechanics more, i like not have shield angles since i dont want a modifer key just for shield angles. (Im a keyboard player that likely will switch to box)) (Will also say i think rivals 2 should have to modifer keys for a total of 16 direction because ledge as well some other things, that or more direction influence with c stick like mollo, only thing with that is forced asdi but still nice ti have)
Weird take, but I think that if they're dead set on keeping Rivals 2 how it is now, it would be neat if they added a sort of "legacy mode" that played way more like Rivals 1 as a side mode. Have it bring back drift DI, unnerf wall jumps, etc. I don't even think they should balance anything towards it, because they've gone on record saying that a lot of the changes they made to Rivals 1 mechanics were made to balance the game around all the Smash mechanics. As a side mode, they wouldn't have to worry about balancing the old mechanics and Rivals 1 players could have something fun to mess with at the same time. That'd be really cool I think :]
Largely unrelated to Rivals 2 specifically but I’d still like to see a second Rivals/Brawlhalla crossover, with a Teros skin for Loxodont and a Fleet skin for Ember
What characters were leaked?
Forsburn and Orcane if I remember correctly.
Ok the “smash” umbrella term is very misleading in this video. One, ledges in brawl and melee work VASTLY different than smash 4 and UTL. That’s the same for how di works in each game too. Melee has more than just “di” it also had smash di which to be fair isn’t as free as drift in terms of the control you have to your character but it was VERY close. It’s ok not to like smash but melee and every other game in the series are literally night and day in terms of how they feel and play and straight up have different mechanics.