Rivals 2 is a Bad Sequel (but still a good game)
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- These are my impressions of the first Rivals 2 Beta. The game is good, but lacking a lot of what I hoped for a rivals sequel.
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0:00 - Intro
2:20 - The Changes
10:14 - The New Stuff
16:55 - Conclusion - Ігри
One thing I want to address because I see this argument (and was worried that I conveyed it this way): My argument is NOT "Rivals 2 is bad because it's not rivals 1." My argument is that the new mechanics introduced in rivals 2 don't make up for what was lost in the transition. The characters do not feel like they were built for the changes that were made, and the new specials are largely uninteresting.
I would LOVE for the game to provide more to differentiate itself FROM rivals 1, but i think the characters are largely inseparable from how they were before. For example, if you look at Guilty Gear, Xrd Ky and Strive Ky are almost entirely different characters. But as a casual player, the differences between the characters feel a lot more minimal here in comparison.
Honestly, that take is way way worse than the “it’s not Rivals 1 and that makes me sad” take. You’re essentially arguing that the game just doesn’t work, which is flat out wrong based on the fact that everyone that isn’t a Rivals 1 diehard is eating this game up.
You’re allowed to be sad that it’s not more like Rivals 1. It’s a different video game, and you liked the old one more. You can still play Rivals 1, though, and if other people feel the same way as you it’ll maintain an active playerbase.
You entered the game with the expectation that it would be like Rivals 1, and so you tried to play it like Rivals 1. When that didn’t work, instead of learning the new game you made a youtube rantsona video about how the new game is a bad sequel. Your gameplay footage is complete garbage and it’s telling from it how much you have the game a chance on its own merits.
Just own the fact that you miss Rivals 1 gameplay. I personally think Rivals 1 feels too frantic and spammy (careful spacing isnt really rewarded at midlevel play). It’s just a matter of opinion.
@@dragonmonitor 1) It isn't a rantsona. 2) I agree. I have the same problem with Dreams being Dreams and not LittleBigPlanet: I memorized tutorials and just didn't pick up Dreams right away or maybe even at all despite them being similar. 3) Directional Alteration is not 'impossible' to implement. A 3D version/hybrid of controls from Your Only Move is Hustle and Minecraft with some tweaks so it is Intellectual-Property-Ready is... alien... but not impossible. 4) No one should alienate anyone. Everything has an 'entry fee'. and 5) You shouldn't like a game for its Day 1 inexperienced player abundance curve if your logic is Zetta shouldn't like a game for its Day 1 inexperienced player abundance curve. To say otherwise is to say 'Oh, I like Halo 2 because of the Day 1 losers I could verse.' or something to that effect. (I understand if all 5 bullet points miss and aren't at all what you mean. I'm just covering the bases.)
Instead of doubling down you should delete this video and apologize for insulting the devs who are clearly trying their best and raining on the parade of people who are actually excited for the game. Also, if you say the reason you don't like Rivals 2 *isn't* because it's not Rivals 1, then why did you make an 18 minute video explaining why the sequel is inferior to the original?
@@someguyontheinternet7190 okay, let’s not go too far here
It seems that no matter the state of Rivals Kragg remains the perfect organism.
He is without flaw and the pinnacle of Platform Fighter evolution.
Facts.
Facts
K R A G G
"Kragg slow. We make Kragg faster"
-Dan, 2020
Most powerful smash heavy: "I am either a joke or I make the world an actively worse place via my existence."
Least powerful Rivals heavy: "I invoke legitimate fear and actually justify myself being a giant character that gets hit alot."
Many people are saying it feels more like a sequel to PM than a sequel to Rivals, that's probably because the entire dev team is PM reps. I know a lot of Rivals players aren't happy about that
project M reps?
Yeah, I think when you look at it from the perspective of being a PM spiritual successor it makes a lot of sense, but its a bit insane to say "Rivals 2 isn't actually a sequel to Rivals 1 , but this entirely different game, actually"
@@Zetta330I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the intent. Two active games in eSports looks better to outsiders than one after all. Looks more professional and thus more profitable.
Since when is the entire dev team pm reps LOL
Unless the definition has extended to "has played pm before" this is just flat out misinformation (´・ω・｀)
3.6 Demo
2 things I want to bring up:
1) There is a window after being grabbed that prevents you from being grabbed again. Normal pummel removes this window which allows characters to chain grab with certain throws making the normal vs. special pummel interaction a lot less straight forward.
2) We are still in the closed beta phase. I don't agree with you on every critique of the game but I'm confident the aspects I do agree with such as the over centralization of tech chases in advantage will be changed if enough people provide feedback this early in the dev cycle.
please let this comment get to the top
I'm pretty sure the guy who said that in a video recanted in the comments saying oh, special pummel also does that, nevermind.
Rivals 2 feels so much more like PM that it seems it would inevitably be controversial. Dedicated fans of PM and Melee will probably find even more to like in it than they already would have in rivals 1. But fans of rivals 1 are going to feel like a lot of the best things in that game are... diminished or missing. I enjoyed the beta but it genuinely felt to me like a game I would play as a pairing with Rivals 1 rather than superceding it.
I think both games can coexist, but I wish it felt like that's what the devs were going for. If the characters in rivals 2 felt like they had more surface level differences compared to their first game counterparts, it would go a LONG way
13:35 Yes the special pummel is more rewarding 90% of the time if you look at it on paper, but the normal pummel is absolutely not useless.
Hitting either pummel removes chain grab protection, which allows for bigger combos/more di mix ups after the throw that you would not get if you were to just throw the opponent and not pummel. Since special pummel is the greater reward as it does something on top of removing chain grab protection, the majority of players will try to break out of special pummel, which in turn makes normal pummel more likely to hit and therefore more rewarding to go for. This will then start making the opponent guess normal to break out which allows special pummel to work more often ect ect.
Since there is a reward from both pummels and still a reason to do neither, it adds a dynamic guessing game to pummels that also can add expression between players. I also find this system a really cool solution to improve on typical pummels in smash bros, it adds depth to the mechanic while also removing the need to mash out which is just an awful mechanic for obvious reasons. Ofc there is an argument to be had that only competitive players will feel the how much better this new system is and how much it adds to the feel of the game, but I'd argue it would feel similar to your description of drift di for new players, where they may not understand what's happening but will realise they have more control in the situation at hand as the person being grabbed and more to consider in advantage as the person who is grabbing.
As a top level RoA player I disagree with a lot of what was said in this video but especially the idea that Rivals 2 is not innovating in the genre, and I think this system alone is a good showcase of that.
Thank you, I appreciate the insight on this. I'd argue there's still an issue here, as i don't think there's any mention of this without doing some serious digging (none of my friends that i played with/talked to were aware of this) but it's a bit more understandable as it's a beta and not finished, and not all the resources are there. I think that does make me think considerably more favorably of the pummel system, and i'll have to play around with it more in the next beta.
As a more casual player I'm still not huge on all the changes, and I appreciate the other perspective!
Why would anyone choose normal break out and risk dying tho? I dont think the guessing game is worth it for the one being grabbed
@@dankl3ss194 For the majority of scenarios you aren’t “risking dying” for getting hit by a special pummel, they do have more reward than a normal pummel, but normal pummels also carry a greater reward than a throw with no pummel. If you are getting normal pummelled over and over, you are consistently giving the opponent more reward because you refuse to stop trying to break out of a special pummel.
This feels akin to saying “I always di in on combos because I don’t want to risk diing out a kill move”, if you always hold in and refuse to ever mix up your di better players will consistently punish you for it and on average get much higher reward than if you mixed up your di. In any platform fighter it’s never good to do the same thing forever because you are scared of something the opponent isn’t currently doing.
@@BossHogLive except there is an indication to when a drift di out of a combo is safe from getting kill there is nothing in a grab break out. You only have to choose between dying or taking dmg ofc you would choose dmg everytime. Even if you manage to break out everytime, you are winning the coin flip not with actual skill
@@dankl3ss194 I want to reiterate that special pummel does not just “make you die”. I don’t think you have an understanding of the system or typical fighting game risk reward if you think it’s ALWAYS better to try and break out of a special pummel. Yes you avoid giving them the highest reward they can get from a grab, but only if they are also using special pummel every time. If you go into Rivals 2 with this mentality you are going to be abused by players who realise you are letting them get a normal pummel every time.
As a massive fan of platform fighters and especially Rivals 1, while I do agree with some of your points, I don't with others, though I can see where you're coming from. I'm still not used to drift DI being removed, and I totally agree that the defensive game in regards to stuff like knockdowns and the air/offstage game feel partially lackluster. Same with the new specials not being utilized as effectively on characters like Kragg and Wrastor when compared to the likes of Ranno, Maypul, and Loxodont.
I think my biggest disagreement is in regards to the returning cast. With the exception of a good chunk of Wrastor's kit, I think most of their movesets are fantastic, and save for a Ranno DStrong here and a Clairen NSpecial there, they didn't need any fundamental changes when making the transition between games besides tweaked stats and attack values. Zetterburn still feels like a fiery spacie, Ranno still feels like a precise combo ninja, and Kragg's now the grappler he was always destined to be. And even if you don't like the returning cast, we got two awesome new character designs in Fleet and Loxodont with more inevitably coming in the future.
Ultimately though, I respect the direction Rivals 2 is heading in because it's the platform fighter that Dan Fornace and his team have wanted to make since day 1. They grew up with Melee and PM and that's the torch they want to carry, and Dan has said he wanted to play with shields and grabs in Rivals 1, but couldn't due to how small he had to scope the project initially. While that lead to some cool stuff for that game, parries and no ledges aren't what they feel defines Rivals. To them, and to me as well, Rivals has always been about, well, the rivals; these absolutely awesome and unique character designs with mechanical synergy and gameplay depth the likes of which I've yet to see in any other fighting game.
So yeah Rivals 2's mechanics are gonna be different from Rivals 1 and its characters are gonna stay mostly the same, and that's ok by me. It's not like 1 is gonna be worthless once 2 releases anyways, just like how Melee didn't die once the other Smash games came out, or how people still love and play 3rd Strike despite Street Fighter changing rapidly after it. And even though Rivals 1 won't be officially supported much, it'll still get awesome new stuff put out by the workshop scene. I'm sure Rivals 2 also gonna get even better as time goes on, both through beta testing, as well as whatever fun stuff Aether Studios has cooking for new characters and the story mode. They've shown with Rivals 1 that they know what they're doing when it comes to making games.
Correction: normal pummel is actually really good for a lot of characters, and can often be better than special pummels depending on the situation. While it might seem like they just do a bit of damage, if you look closely you can see it removes the yellow glow from the opponent. That's their grab armor that protects them from getting chaingrabbed. In other words, normal pummels allow you to chaingrab opponents while dealing 8% per pummel, which is huge. Many characters can also do this with their special pummel, but those specials usually do less damage and the dynamic of normal vs special creates a mixup either way. For some characters like kragg, their unique special pummels create a really cool dynamic with their normal pummel since they lead to completely different follow-ups. One more note: drift DI does sort of exist in other platform fighters like smash (and likely rivals 2). You can still input your DI after the first hit, but it's much weaker than R1's drift DI.
Im glad the two games are very different, because I would hate for the sequal to overwrite the old game and kill the workshop community.
Fair but at that point if the original is gonna outlive the new one why not just keep expanding on the original
They both can exist separately this way @@infectedanimal9830
@@infectedanimal9830 Because not all devs settle down into 1 game and a lot of the times they come up with new ideas or want something different. I mean the devs pretty quickly wanted to make a none fighter game not long after completing Rivals and then they wanted a 3d Rivals game. They aren't tied up and forced to do something specific like big companies do so when they want to change things up they will.
This is a fair point.
rivals has had a rocky history since the jump to 3d
I think it's more so the fact there are a lot more eyes on the game compared to the first game that had a relatively small following. With a lot of people anticipating the game comes with a lot of unsolicited critiquing.
And Dan was a Sonic main in Brawl...
IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER
It's all been downhill ever since rivals 3D blast
Since the jump to 3d... like this one game? I'm confused what you meant by that.
@@xelic1996 it's based on an iconic sonic joke about his transition into 3D
I agree with some of the criticisms here, but i really dont agree with the "Hollow imitation" narrative you have going on and find those terms rather reductive and unnecessary.
I like this comment. I feel like a good amount of the points in this video are valid. But many frustrations come from how it feels like defaming rivals instead of constructive feedback.
@@kelbym3710 Yeah the real issue with this video is how it's framed more so than the points themselves. Especially for a game in beta months from release being made by a team that is well known to take community feedback into account as they adjust things.
Love this video. It's sad to see Rivals 2 reject many of the concepts that people loved in Rivals 1 that didn't push away casuals like Drift DI and strong wavedashes, opting to mold the game into Smash rather than seeing how those mechanics could work with and shape the mechanics that they've borrowed from it.
I think this was a fairly good critique and put a important light on the key differences between rivals 1 and 2. I especially appreciate this, as I came to rivals 1 for the same reasons as you gave
Despite this game having ledges and shields to give more defensive options. they managed to make the defensive state feel worse than rivals 1 where your only option is to run away or parry.
Wavedash out of shield?
Attack out of shield?
Parry?
Jump out of shield?
Shield dropping?
...the only thing I'm not sure about is shield angling.
I tried Rivals 2 on Parsec during the beta weekend and I really like how it plays… though that’s probably cuz I love playing Smash Ultimate as well lmao. I’m still gonna play Rivals 1 tho, cuz I love that game
Hearing your thoughts in this video was really interesting to hear. I didn’t have much time to play Rivals 2 so I didn’t think too much about the stuff you brought up
The lack of a ledge made recovery so much more creative than other platform fighters.
I mean as a Ranno main it kinda feels almost the exact same other than bubble not being infinite anymore.
Brawlhalla also has no ledge
As someone who has spent a ton of time in both Smash and Rivals
Rivals 2 has me excited for the future of the genre
It is a pretty huge departure from Rivals 1, but that's ok
I hope someday they go back to fix some of the netcode issues with rivals 1 qwq
rivals 1 working spectator mode come home 😔
After seeing Combo Devil's octagonal shields, I now think every platform fighters needs to have it. It's like if shield tilting was actually useful.
I like rivals 2 but I completely agree that it does not feel like rivals 1, and feels really homogeneous to other plat fighters and way less interesting than the first game
I would pick rivals 1 over rivals 2 any day
When I was playing the beta, I definitely ran into the same issues, especially drift DI and wall jumping. I hope these things get reverted or at least altered. Very good video for informing people about these changes.
I saw the title and was honestly expecting to really disagree with this, but after seeing this, yeah, I kinda mostly agree. As a fairly casual player, I wondered why DI didn’t feel good and didn’t realize that drift DI didn’t exist, and the getup options feel awful and slow, with the tech window not feeling very open.
But I like PM, more for me I guess?
Ik u know this but Rivals devs want Rivals to still be its own game with its own mechanics compared to Rivals 2. If Rivals 2 was just 3d and improved Rivals 1 then barely anyone would go back to the Og game except for workshop players and devs. By keeping the games different with their own mechanics and characters it creates a smash effect where both games can be alive and have their own comp scene due to their differences like melee and ultimate. I still like the video and I do think the points u brought up should be taken into account for improving the game especially the fact of changing original characenters move sets from their Rivals 1 move sets and the unnecessary removal of drift DI for launch. New mechanics def need work tho which I'm hoping they improve for launch and listen to rival players who were able to play the game early like u.
i'm happy about this video, it's especially important since unlike most fighting games, rivals's creators are much more active with the community so there's a good chance things will not stay as they are
Rivals 1 defense is mostly about footsies. If Rivals 2 can find a way for shielding to reward footsies in the same way Rivals 1 does but still have shielding as an option I think it could make for a very good system. I think part of the reason Melee is such a beloved game to this day is because shielding is a bad option. Shields barely cover the character and quickly deteriorate letting offense shine. (Pun intended). I wouldn't want Rivals 2 to have small shields in the same way Melee does but I'm sure that if the Rivals dev team looks into shields more they could make a very compelling system.
Agree mostly about the shield talk except Powershielding is a thing in melee and if it got optimized you wouldn't think so highly of melee's shield mechanics. Bubble shields are way too good no matter what and melee has a lot of jank so we should not try to replicate that game.
I think characters need better shield pressure tools to alleviate this, Zetter's entire moveset feels unsafe against shield and I don't really know what the answer is to it other than empty jump grab rn.
normal pummel lets you chain grab. its very important that you can break it!!
Yeah they talked about the benefits of normal pummel in some live stream they did, people probably just haven't figured it out yet because of the beta lasting like 2 days
You know I thought I was going crazy playing the backer weekend, I was going back and forth between rivals 2 being like either smash 4 or PM while knowing rivals 1 was a more extreme melee. If you just go in the game tells you nothing, this is the first time I heard there was a special pummel, I knew there was a special ledge get up and a knock down but the game doesn't help in that, not even lvl 9 bots, which were kinda bad? I had a fleet lvl9 bot roll behind me and down strong opposite of me while I was just standing still. And speaking of fleet she does have a small amount of sauce, I learned you can tap jump with a jump button and hold down with an analog stick to get an instant air float and not all moves work, especially if you are on the stage proper but her back air works and that seems to be her best killing aerial move and you can do it out of shield too. I dub it the pillz aerial because Ive heard no one else talk about it
I will say that after trying the game online, before playing a full on 7 hours or offline friendlies, playing it offline just makes everything feel that little bit better which I think it definitely needs, all the same i absolutely loved my time with the game, but the video is really well put together and I absolutely understand those who didnt have as good a time as me.
Much love from NZ ♡
*of offline friendlies
What I'd change:
» Shields shouldn't be able to block strong attacks unless it's a spot shield (meaning you guess when they decide to hit their strong, which is satisfying and should be rewarded :) )
» I'm with ya about pummels: 14:21
» Add drift DI back, even if reduced compared to the original, some control is better than nothing...
» Would it hurt if they *tried* letting players use the ledge AND have the old wall jumps from ROA1? Not sure it would actually be as OP as it sounds, but surely it's worth trying..?
I'm really looking forward to the sequel to my favourite platform fighter, I'll be looking out for these things when I eventually play it for myself :)
8:16 In games that add shielding I'd like the forcefield type, but only if it was one side of the character it defended, rather than an orb of temporary invincibility, a semicircle so you have to turn and try and time a good attack if someone leaps behind but also allowing you to mitigate damage to think for a bit.
You applauded Rivals 1 for changing the platform fighting formula and then criticize Rivals 2 for changing it again
I understand that you feel like it's not being true to itself by changing ledge/off stage mechanics, using different DI system, tech chasing, etc, but I think it's perfect for the Melee/PM community
With what's going on with Nintendo and Melee/PM, this game makes a lot of sense for that player base
I agree that the music seems like it doesn't belong
Also, some of the character model faces look weird to me
I hope they add something to replace drift di if they hate it so much. Maybe like a 1 air time thing where you can increase the knockback you take
Correct me if im wrong as i haven't played the game yet but with your proposition to fixing grabbing issue wont that cause another issue? If someone waits instead of guessing the first time the person holding them can just toss them after instead of doing another pummel or grab so that they dont have to worry about the grab'e guessing the second time. Leading the to the person getting grabbed to try to guess the first time. Not guessing correctly sounds way more punishing if you dare to guess wrong or not guess at all
in Killer Instinct, where the mechanic was taken from, the idea is that you want to try to breaker as quick as you can to minimize damage, but ultimately you just want to have a correct breaker. I think that there is a mindgame of not guessing meaning that the opponent *has* to throw that could create a very interesting mixup game
However, apparently the normal pummel does have some additional properties I was not aware of, so I'll have to play around with those next time the beta is available
@@Zetta330 ah I see, thank you for the insight, I actually didn't know that this idea came from killer instinct 🤔
having a sequel be significantly different from the original is a good thing and this way of thinking comes from the absolutely cooked consumer mindset that a sequel should kill the original
this is not the case. they can better coexist when they're different. I'm happy Dan got to make the game he always wanted to.
I think for a multiplayer game this only really works if both games stay alive and active. If sequels are significantly different and the previous game is borderline unplayable because the playerbase just isn't there that's a problem
@@SilverRyuu with workshop and a very different meta they both will have their own niche and can stand in their own separately
@skippyasqueeze Workshop works in the case of Rivals to keep it alive (especially since it's not strictly tied to a console that will become outdated), but I'm speaking more generally. Sometimes you have stuff like Melee that will live forever, and sometimes you have Smash4 that faded into obscurity as soon as Ultimate came out. You never really know. Making a sequel to a multiplayer game radically different is a huge risk. Especially when sometimes changes are made just for the sake of being different instead of to actually improve
@@SilverRyuu we can't stop creating art because we're afraid that other earlier art will become ignored. Nothing in rivals two is being made for the sake of being different. It's being made to realize the vision dan was very vocal about having before rivals 1 was even finished. Yes sometimes games die, but making games different gives it more opportunity to thrive both in concert than having one just be the same thing as the first but 2.0. It's a smart decision.
@@SilverRyuu Doesn't the Ult example just play into what skippy was saying though? Ultimate didn't make much of a change to the formula from 4, they are by far the 2 most similar smash games. From almost everyone's perspective I've seen in the community it was "Why play smash 4 when ultimate is just what 4 had but bigger and better?" And that was the original point he was making. If you make a sequel just the same but better, there is never a reason to go back other than the novelty. Yes straying too far from what it was originally could alienate the playerbase, but that's the line you gotta dance around when making a sequel. In this case the stark differences between Rivals 1&2 mechanically could very well lead to both communities helping eachother grow.
10:55 This is not relevant to the discussion but ayo wrastor neutral B is used all the time. It's his best recovery move and can be fastfallen.
I was about to say this, comboing into it to kill off the top too
honestly this video changed a lot about how I have felt about rivals 2, but just like fraymakers I hope this game learns a lot and takes its criticism very seriously
If i may go on a small tangent, the screenshot where you blurred out the new characters seems to be in alphabetical order. with a quick google search you can find that the letters between f and k, are G, H, I, and J. we can use these to figure out the name of the blurred character by seeing which characters from rivals one have these letters. By process of elimination, this leaves Forsburn or Hodan. We know Forsburn is already confirmed, but i dont think that a blur of that size would have covered up his whole name. no, i believe it is safe to assume that the funny monkey will be returning for rivals 2. not only is there a stage with his face in it, his theme is ON the kickstarter website as a preview. with the provided evidence i think its all but confirmed that the king of onsen himself will be in rivals 2.
Yeah, I love Rivals 2, and some of the changes I was wary about (shields, grabs, etc) are starting to grow on me, but mechanically Rivals 1 will always be better. The thing I loved most about it is that it felt like everything that happened to me, good or bad, was my doing. Drift DI was by far the biggest reason for that, and I too hope it makes a return.
You think shields are bad?
While in Smash except for 64, shields are pretty OP, not having shields is a turn off for me. Like Multiversus.
I think if shields covered one side or had more blockstun it would be better.
If shields worked more like blocks and had more stun like block stun in fighters i think they would be interesting but how they usually get implemented it ends up being a super boring mechanic that has no risk and heavily rewards defense while being extremely boring to see and use. Rivals 2 shields are a lot like Smash ultimate shields (not a compliment BTW).
@@dave9515 I feel the same way towards parrying and rivals 2 has 2 versions of parrying.
@@luckymanx2978 You know what i can say fair to that. Parrying does need more reworking and tuning. (both versions) I also agree with that sentiment too. I really don't get why devs don't make the RPS systems of platfighters more fair and fun and interactive in general. I never understood why neutral in platfighters were more boring in comparison in teh past but thinking on it every new platfighter release i get it now. There really is no point in approaching really. You only do it out of necessity if you are losing and even the schmooving is all just defensive play to try and get the opponent to make a move first thats risky that you can capitalize on. There is no back and forth or neutral skips like other fighters would have because stage control and the RPS balance between offense and defense is screwed against offense and heavily rewarding defense even compared to the most defensive traditional fighters. The tug of war game is not present cause of this as well since there is no way to reliably whiff punish most of the time or bait with a whiff.
@@dave9515 exactly! Who ever attacks first loses.
I think you should only parry aerial attacks, however aerial attacks should be slightly plus on block or -1,-2.
Grounded moves should be minus but they are not parriable.
Third. There is no grounded parry, doing so will remove the weakness of parry.
I think Melee has the most engaging neutral as aerials are slightly plus in some cases, but melee neutral has its flaws.
Shields in general are a very lackluster fighting game mechanic.
I did not realize how much I didn't want knockdown and ledge grabs in Rivals until this video. Off stage was an interesting scuffle and ledge grabbing looks like it simplifies it a lot more than it should. And with knockdowns, maybe if it acted more like a mixup to mess with timing like in Dragonball fighters (delay getup and being immune until standing) I would like it more maybe.
Grabs are a bit of a mixed bag. I sorta like this but not really? Can't tell you how many ppl I've gotten from them mashing out of my grab in Smash. So it being this match the attack to escape helps make it consistent. But it just being 2 options is kinda bad. I think having 2-3 different normal pummel types (high/mid/low) and 1 special could help make normal pummel more appealing. Personally instead of a grab, I would rather it be a burst that acted like a parry and shattered opponents shields at the cost of some of your own. Would help keep things moving instead of a guessing minigame.
However, I will die on the hill that is my need for shields. I hated the parry in Rivals1. It felt inconsistent so I never really used it much during a game. It made me always be aggressive at all times and that just isn't my playstyle. Hell, I'll take chip percentage in exchange for no knockback. Just give me a consistent defensive option that isn't constantly rolling like a milktank or wavedashing like I snorted several lines of pixy stix.
I've never played this "Rivals" game but the sequal looks really good even if the gameplay isn't the same I feel like the sequal will draw in more players.
This video seems to be an expression of my exact opinions
Rivals 2 looks like it’s gonna be a great game that I am legitimately excited for but it’s not gonna be a continuation of the first
Great video think this is the first time Ive heard of drift di. So much tech in fighters that I just dont know about
Basically, if this game came out first, it would've been better, it's at tue quality a first game would have been expected to be with Rivals classic being good enough to be it's own sequel!
I think I’ve heard that the normal pummel actually removes grab armor after throws so if you get off a normal pummel you can chain grab.
I enjoyed the beta a lot. You have convinced me on the game would be better with drift di. Upstrong fleet chases being confirms at higher enough percent is funny though i would like if it was harder / more nuanced.
I like fleet, i would switch if someone better is added but i do like them a lot & are my choice of main for now.
I dont mind the chracters being mostly the same since i like them already (notable i like wrastor) but do agree with you zetter pummel sucks & some new specials could be more intresting better. (Clairens new special doenst feel that special to me like rivals 1 currnetly, it feels too much just like another normal or strong, air grab back would be nice)
(Will mention i played a lot of P+ for a while so i got use to the mechanics more, i like not have shield angles since i dont want a modifer key just for shield angles. (Im a keyboard player that likely will switch to box)) (Will also say i think rivals 2 should have to modifer keys for a total of 16 direction because ledge as well some other things, that or more direction influence with c stick like mollo, only thing with that is forced asdi but still nice ti have)
Wait just a darn guzzling minute. There was a BETA for Rivals 2?
Rivals of Aether 1 is the greatest platform fighter of all time and it’s not even close. The game is like crack once you start to get the hang of it
The thing is, even as much as I played Rivals 2's Beta and love the game to death... I feel like all the points you made are correct.
Perhaps it didn't feel as different of a game to me since most of the platform fighters I've played in the last 2 years are Rivals, P+, and HDR, and so going from those to Rivals 2 might not feel too bad. (And I mostly played Kragg and Clairen in the beta, arguably the least different feeling characters)
But the game definitely has some room to grow. Drift DI (allegedly) is still in the game, just not in the beta, so that could still change. But I agree with pummel attacks/specials being too in favor of special pummels. And Kragg getup special is not super good at all, yeah. And wavedashes being much weaker doesn't feel great. Initially I thought I'd disagree with the video but I'm glad to hear your thoughts on it, and I have some hope for the game to do better.
Seeing shields in the trailer 2 years ago was a massive red flag. I used to brag to my friends about rivals not having shields or ledge-grabs. It feels bad having 0 interest in the sequel to one of my favorite games of all time.
pretty damn good video, i don't think this game will be bad on final release, hell, as a PM fan, this is right up my alley, but losing some things that made rivals 1 so unique does hurt, though, in a way, it also helps R1 stand out more and give me reasons to keep going back and playing it, even after R2's release
The game isn't fully out it may change
Who are the next 2 characters?
she has returned!
The curse of the 2nd title strikes again
Ive never heard this term before
@@harryvpn1462Sequels usually tend to be worse than the thing preceding them. The second movie or season in a series is usually the worst, a band's second album is almost never as good as their first, etc.
It usually doesn't apply to games though, except for this one for some reason.
This doesn't disprove the statement or anything but a funny thought is that the biggest founding father of fighting games and platform fighters, Street Fighter and Smash respectively, saw massive success with their second installment that the first didn't reach
@@RushWheeler This is literally not the saying. Usually it's used to say the second one is the best in the series and the third / the fourth out of an already finished trilogy is doomed to be bad and soulless. I've never heard anyone say 'Second Verse, worse than the First'.
It's actually really funny in the context of fighting games specifically because first entries are almost universally the worst (SF1, GG1, BB1, MK1, Tekken1) because they all experiment and haven't found their footing.
@bumbibomber I can think of plenty of games that suck and are the second game of a series and plenty of games that are third that rock. Stop regurgitating fixed ideas and trying to match them with things that don't apply.
I can imagine that the devs thought about this game in the context of competitive melee. And while this is almost guaranteed with platform fighters, they probably especially focused on the melee aspect in the game design. In the past the competitive Melee/PM scene had a lot of trouble and maybe they wanted to make a contribution to the community by making a game which is design and mechanic-wise in a similar context, so that players wont have to worry about Nintendo
i forgot this even existed
tbh i love rivals 1, even if im not very good at it, and not active in its space anymore
so i backed rivals 2 for the early to bed maypul skin and proceeded to forget it existed lmfao
i may be a bit stupid
(also completely missed the backer weekend, but i was busy so i wouldn't have been able to get to it anyway)
I gotta stop you on the Wrastor bit.. tornado is used at top lvl in rivals one lmao. It ends a lot of top ladder combos from the ceiling.. I agree with a lot in the video tho
5:29 idk they might add it sometime hopefully
Coming from the perspective of a melee player, I get that shields might be a big change but trust me: there is a TON of depth in the shield mechanic. Shielding is definitely less interesting in a game like ult which doesn't have wavedash and shielddrop, but in a game with those mechanics, you can use shield in a ton of creative ways
While there were a few good points I disagree heavily with the new pummel system being bad or unexpressive. Regular pummels remove grab invincibility which allows for chaingrabs. As the game gets optimized people will definitely start abusing that more which will make grab breaking with A just as important as grab breaking with B.
I half agree with the sheilds complaint. It feels like it needs something for that extra oomph.
It's too late to alter things now but I feel like a cool change would be taking a page out of Fraymaker's book but with a Rivals twist.
Your shield only protects the side you're facing, while your parry covers your entire hitbox.
Add that on top of it taking you longer to recharge your shield and your shield consumption being much faster, with the punishment being you can only parry until the shield is recharged instead of stunning the player for a bit, and you've got yourself a cool risk vs. reward mechanic.
That's not to say what we have right now is bad, It's just a idea for that something to spice up the formula.
Nah if that happened then parries need hard nerfs cause no world its right to heavily reward a player for abusing a resource and getting punished for it. If your shield has to regen you deserve to suffer for misusing the resource or else there is no risk to shielding. The idea literally does not help anything at all imo. Aggro deserves rewards too you know. If you break a shield you deserve a reward not punishment. Parry is a reward for breaking your shield and thats stupid in this hypothetical.
admittedly, the mechanical shift is so much further towards my own personal preferences, so i'm very happy with how it's going. i don't blame anyone for missing what's been lost since rivals 1, though!
just need them to nerf shields, buff parries, and make tech chasing less universal and it'll probably be my fav platform fighter
good video! made me realize some problems with the game i didnt know i had. i heavily agree with the grab restructure idea, the lack of drift di, and the lack of moveset innovation criticisms. personally has as someone with vast experience throughout the genre (most smash games, nasb 1&2, mvs, rivals 1&2, slap, fray, brawlhalla, etc) this game still feels like rivals to me but i can also understand why it feels less distinct. to me it feels like a lot of the new mechanics were added in a very rivals-esque way, making it feel more like an alternate rivals 1 than a smash clone. it does feel like it has less identity than the first, but even with the massive amount of stuff carried over id say its identity is still distinct, its just that said distinct identity just so happens to be closer to smash than the first game
Largely unrelated to Rivals 2 specifically but I’d still like to see a second Rivals/Brawlhalla crossover, with a Teros skin for Loxodont and a Fleet skin for Ember
As a anime fighter fan, i LOVE rivals 2. It feels like an actual anime like fighting game minus the high low and cross ups put into a plat fighter. I kinda disliked Rivals 1 because it really feels like a footsie simulator rather than a fighting game. Yes, footsies are a great part of all fighting games but rivals 1 imo fails to highlight the spectacle of it by not having a real defensive mechanic. It's missing the layers of adaption like pressuring someone's block, conditioning for grabs, etc, that turns me off completely.
I completely understand your and many other rivals 1 fans stance on the game, but personally for me rivals 2 feels VERY nice as a fighting game fan.
Cool! I wanted to find a nicely put review that actually has a negative take on the game so I could gain more perspective on what's not-perfect about it, because I loved the open beta and love the game. However, I will admit that I was hoping that take would focus less on it being "well it's not rivals of aether." I have to agree that some things they added and removed, like adding shields and removing drift DI, does help make the game feel like just another platform fighter, but I also don't think this is a bad thing, either. Moreover, I definitely don't want "Rivals of Aether but better;" like Smash, there should be a reason to want to play the older games. I know me and plenty of my friends still find Smash Brawl to be plenty of fun despite us settling on Smash Ultimate, and I don't want Rivals 2 to outright replace Rivals of Aether, so taking away some of that Rivals of Aether identity will help Rivals 2 stand out more. Lastly I also think though that people will just have to give the game more time. It's in beta, it's only been playable two or three times, now, and there's plenty that could change for the better until the game's release. Great review!
Hitfalling also feels less fluid and not as good generally. The game is a lot less generous with buffering hitfalls, and on top of that, I'm not sure if I'm the only one that noticed but I believe the mechanic where hitting an aerial reduces endlag might have been changed?
Whilst I don't agree with most of your points thus far, I fully agree that drift DI should be a mechanic in Rivals 2.
i haven't looked at this game since i saw they were throwing the sprite based style into the trash and looking at it now it looks like they just mpdded rivals characters into project m or something rather than an actual followup to rivals, i still would want to get it once it comes out to support people who made one of my favorite games but idk if i would like this nearly as much as the original game
Weird take, but I think that if they're dead set on keeping Rivals 2 how it is now, it would be neat if they added a sort of "legacy mode" that played way more like Rivals 1 as a side mode. Have it bring back drift DI, unnerf wall jumps, etc. I don't even think they should balance anything towards it, because they've gone on record saying that a lot of the changes they made to Rivals 1 mechanics were made to balance the game around all the Smash mechanics. As a side mode, they wouldn't have to worry about balancing the old mechanics and Rivals 1 players could have something fun to mess with at the same time. That'd be really cool I think :]
I have not been able to play rivals 2 yet, but one thing I hate is the shield mechanic, I wish there was left right or high low blocking or even both, shielding in smash is so boring compared to blocking in every other fighting game
Honestly a shield rework I would like is if you had to pick the direction to block from left right and up so mind games other than hitor grab can exist
I disagree with most of what you said, but I can still understand where your coming from on most things. The only thing I dont really get is you saying the older characters dont fit with the engine and new mechanics. While I can kind of understand that, I feel like it also just doesn’t make much sense seeing as the first 4 characters they made on the new engine are literally from Rivals 1. Which to me, means that the game was built off of these older characters. So I dont really understand how the characters that the engine was made for, dont work in Rivals 2. Like I get that their moves might not mix well with shields and throws, but also if the game started out with mainly returning characters would the shields and grabs not be facilitated towards the older movesets? With my time in Rivals 2 I really enjoyed each character and learning the new ways to play each of them. I think if you play the characters exactly how you would in Rivals 1, you’re gonna end up getting beat out by the new mechanics and playstyle of Rivals 2.
From my perspective, it feels that the engine was NOT made for the characters. A lot of the choices made to the game feel like they were done with the actual characters being an afterthought. Grabs are actually a perfect example of this. NONE of the returning characters have a throw that interacts with their gimmick with the exception of zetterburn, who's forward throw ignites the opponent.. on a kill throw. In addition, quite a few characters have new special moves that don't really interact with their existing specials (wrastor being the most notable example). I would have loved to see how creative the devs could get with these new tools, and was dissapointed to see they really didn't.
What you don’t realize is that Smash Melee is Rivals of Aether, but harder. The guy who made Rivals of Aether made it cause he wanted a Smash Melee that was easier to get into. So they were most likely going to get more into something that was closer to Melee in gameplay. That was the end goal.
Seeing as my last platform fighter was brawlhalla about 4 years ago, I might take this up.
So, who are the new characters)
Orcane and forsburn
yay new melee :)
Honestly, it almost feels like Smash has a stranglehold on platform fighters as a genre. Whenever a new one gets announced, so many people immediately feel the need to compare it to Smash, and worse case scenario, they call them "smash killers", which just ends up bringing people's expectations up way too high. In some aspects, Rivals 2 feels like it's almost making an active attempt to quell comments like this by making it closer to Melee and PM, and while this works for some, it just makes the game seem like "Project M 2" to me, as opposed to "Rivals of Aether 2". Chances are I'll still enjoy it when it comes out, but it is honestly disappointing that it's becoming more similar to Smash instead of pushing itself further in its own direction.
Oh man everything you said just rings so true. It's definitely PM 2. Glad it's around though.
I dont agree with your take on shielding I do think shielding is a really good mechanic it just hasn't been implemented well yet. I havent gotten to play rivals 2 yet so idk if it's in there but Ult took a lot of steps to make shielding more interactive with parrying and holding b to angle your shield. I think it would be a near perfect system if they didnt also give most of the cast ridiculously broken oos.
Thats not the only issue the shields are way too big for the whole cast in ultimate and they regen super fast to the point there is no risk in spamming shields regardless. Bubble shields are a plague on this genre of games. They don't work and neuter aggressive options heavily with a free 0 risk get out of jail free card. Other than this i do heavily agree with you btw. Also you might have forgotten but early ultimate it took a really long time to regen a shield when it was low and the community unanimously complained about it resulting in the regen of shields we have now in ultimate. OOS options is a really dumb concept in general and should just be removed.
@@dave9515 I don't agree because the way shields lock your movement is already enough of a weakness, not to mention that shield damage is already pretty high. I'm also not opposed to oos, I think the change where grab oos was nerfed was really good but with how fast and safe a lot of oos options are it's overtuned. (Especially when they're given to zoners and swordies) I like the dynamic of having to pressure shields and how that adds to the dynamic between grounded moves and aerials, so I'm fine with shields being good as long as you're in a disadvantageous position while using them.
@@dave9515 Bubble shields themselves are not a plague on the genre. Rivals 2 could still use some tuning of them yes, but it isn't an unsalvageable mechanic. You are locked in place and are vulnerable to grabs, which against some characters leads to their most powerful combo's and leads to dangerous situations. I would like better tools for pressuring shields mainly myself.
great video
while i understand where you are coming from i thank for them for the direction they are going with 2 cause it gives us smash fans a viable alternative
What characters were leaked?
Forsburn and Orcane if I remember correctly.
TLDR rivals 1 fans wish rivals 2 was a legitimate sequel to their favorite game
It very much is still a legitimate sequel though. The mechanics that have changed the game so far were not part of the series' core identity.
@xelic1996 and isnt that everything though? The core identity is now "just another smash bros clone" ...I'm not saying rivals 2 will be boring. The gameplay looks awesome as a melee players that barely touched rivals 1. But I can see why rivals 1 players are upset that the game they loved was turned into a game heavily influenced by smash bros.
To me, Rivals' biggest selling point was always the workshop. This one simple fact made it so Rivals 2 could never top 1 for me, so I don't actually mind that it's going in a more different direction than Rivals 1. I think it's more beneficial for it to differentiate itself, otherwise I don't see myself having a reason to play it over 1.
They have already stated workshop support will eventually come to Rivals 2, so if that's the difference maker then it's just a matter of time.
@@xelic1996 Regardless of having workshop support or not, a 3D game with the structure of rivals 2 will be infinitely harder to mod for than rivals 1. I have no doubt people will make some amazing characters, but it's simply not possible for it to have the accessability and flexibility of rivals 1's workshop.
I still think this game will be a banger but youre very right. Like yeah its not rivals 1 and thats okay but it doesnt mean they shouldnt transfer all the things from rivals 1 that made differ so much from smash. Ledges are cool and i feel like shield have potential but i havent played 2 so im not sure. I am still hopeful since it is still early days and having gotten back into rivals recently i really want this game to be top tier but all we gotta do is wait. Sick video
While I have not played rivals 2 yet, (As i did not fund the kickstarter), I do think that the old characters should probably get reworks that utilize their new options. Wrastor especially was my least favorite character in og rivals, and the new specials he got do not add anything to his already boring kit.
I always felt like Rivals had a great unique identity for casuals compared to Smash Ultimate with:
- The gorgueous pixel art
- The very agressive defensive mechanics
- Workshop support (Great viral marketing, funny at parties)
And this sequel doesn't really seem to embrace any of these. It's just so weird, it feels like they instead just want to make it more like Smash Bros since they got a higher budget, almost feels like the pixel art and parry system in the first game was just there for budget reasons. Why would a casual player play Rivals 2 over Smash Ultimate? Of course they should make the game they want to make (Very clearly it's by PM mega fans for PM mega fans) But I really can't see this game ever selling even close to the anmount ROA1 did, and to me it feels like they let go of a lot of what I felt like was ROA1's unique identity to replace it with Smash Bros. Worship. And I feel like all the Smash Bros. worshipping in the dev teams is really holding platform fighters as a unique genre back IMO.
Eh I mean heres the thing rivals 2 is going to have the bigger player base iv played the beta and it was fun also no it didn't feel like a smash clone it still felt like it's own thing Roa2 also had a successful kickstarter as well like 1 million which is alot for a platform fighter
Half the comments are saying it's more like PM, I'd say that's a great point.... if I knew what the heck PM stands for besides Prime Meridian.
It stands for Project M, a mod for Super Smash Bros. Brawl that makes the game more like Melee
@BlastoiseMaster it's also unironically the best smash game!
Tbh I think the only thing Rivals 2 needs to do is drift DI and make shields weaker. The other mechanics need more time for analysis.
The grabs are completely fine, people aren't engaging with the full mechanics and the video itself proves this by saying you should only tech special pummel. If you think that you're not winning the grab meta.
That's how I feel about many other mechanics criticized in the video. I don't think people have fully engaged with the tech yet for a clear answer.
As for shields though, it's undeniable that they slow down the gameplay, but I don't think it should be removed. I think there needs to be a reason to not grab shield...and there sort of is. You can break shield, but that takes a WHILE. There's a lot of ways to make shields weaker, but idk what would best. Nerfing it would undeniably speed up the game though.
i miss etalus :(
Closed beta*
I don’t understand why you say side switching isn’t in the game. Is the platform fighter equivalent not crossed up shielding?
In a traditional fighter, usually you are only able to block in one direction at a time. That means if an attack were to hit you from the opposite direction, you would need to adjust your block or take a hit. Games like Fraymakers (and I believe Rushdown Revolt?) have implemented similar mechanics with their defense.
@@Zetta330 I see! combo devils will have the best shield to implement that idea, and yes RR’s shield is only one side. I feel like side switching wouldn’t be that effective in Rivals 2, or most platform fighters, just because there aren’t that many situations where you can trap someone with shield pressure without being interrupted/punished. The only platform fighter character I can think of that can consistently do that are the spacies (melee fox and falco, PM wolf, maybe zet in rivals 2). Aka, you can weave between other sides of shields with waveshines with little room for the opponent to do much but try to get away. Most of the time you can only touch someone’s shield once before they can respond themselves. In a normal 2D fighter you can land a falling aerial, cross them up, then continue the offense on the other side seamlessly, but you can’t really do that with anyone else. At most you’d be turning your shield around to block one extra attack, but most unspaced aerials like that are getting punished. And it’s so rare to see someone tomohawk all the way around someone’s entire shield to the other side unpunished
@@Beastmd Thats why shields need a nerf in platform fighters and normals and aerials need buffs. The RPS system in platfighters is heavily scued in favor of not interacting most of the time. Its not a good system at all. Combo devils looks good so far and maybe the devs found the solution to this problem with platfighters which are more like an aerial fighter.
@@dave9515 i disagree so strongly that most of platform fighters is not interacting. most faster PFs (melee, PM, rivals 2) require the same if not more interactions to win than a game of street fighter. it is HARD not to get hit in pfs. your proposal is a slippery slope that would discourage the multidirectional aspect of platform fighters. why would anyone dashdance if it turns out their shield might face the wrong way? and if you were to make shield only one side, it would nerf back air and RAR hard, and basically remove bair out of shield. there are some characters that literally play with their back to you (smash 4 DK) that would heavily nerf him. you realize our shields run out, and can then be shield poked, which make up for high low blocking, and most 2D fighters have infinite blocking. if you want to balance rivals shields a bit more, then add back shield poking and nerf CC
buffing attack is just going to make punishes way stronger and combos are already hella strong in rivals 2. also rivals 1 is arguably a way more aerial fighter than rivals 2
I feel like adding a "classic" option to Rivals 2 would lul alot of complaints. All it would have to do is replace shielding with parrying and change the walljump.
Making it an option seems like the best way for everyone to be happy.
isn't parrying still a thing in Rivals 2 though
shields aren't replacing squat
Ok the “smash” umbrella term is very misleading in this video. One, ledges in brawl and melee work VASTLY different than smash 4 and UTL. That’s the same for how di works in each game too. Melee has more than just “di” it also had smash di which to be fair isn’t as free as drift in terms of the control you have to your character but it was VERY close. It’s ok not to like smash but melee and every other game in the series are literally night and day in terms of how they feel and play and straight up have different mechanics.
If hollow knight is in rivals 2 I will play it so much
i guess is that the game is prob gonna be a big breath of fresh air to smash players but fans of rivals 1 will feel like its less of the game they fell in love with. Imo I think if the game's title was something that wasnt just "the sequel to the first rivals game" because it seems good just too different to be an upgrade its more of a sidegrade/option