A Response to Dunkey's Response to the Response to His The Last of Us Part II Response: A Response
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- Опубліковано 10 гру 2020
- Like I said, don't take this as a direct attack on Dunkey himself or anything. This vid was sent to me in my Discord and I saw it as a chance to air our some grievances I had in regard to a number of creators here on UA-cam who had more positive takes on the game and who I felt were a bit dismissive of detractors. Also I did edit his video down to cut down on time but did my best to make sure nothing was taken out of context, although if you feel like I did, let me know in the comments.
As for your comments/critiques of my The Last of Us Part II analysis for Part 2 of this video, I will link the video below and you can leave your comment on this video OR my Discord and Twitter links are also listed below. Also, again let me know if you are okay with me showing your name or handle if I decide to feature your comment in Part 2.
And If you'd rather shoot me an email: macabrestorytelling@gmail.com
*At 16:40, it should be "Dina" instead of "Mel" (thank you Zapphoman 👌 )
Patreon: / macabrestorytelling
Twitter: / macabstory
My TLOU2 vid: • The Last of Us Part II...
Dunkey's TLOU2 vid: • The Last of Us Part II...
Dunkey's response vid: • Discussing Last of Us ...
GirlfriendReviews vid: • Understanding The Last...
MUSIC:
Carmen - Habanera (Piano Version) Georges Bizet by myuu: • Carmen - Habanera (Pia... - Фільми й анімація
How do you expect me to take in this 36 minutes video when I'm still trying to comprehend the title.
I’m glad I’m not stupid and alone😂
@@theannouncer5538 you're stupid but you're not alone*
Word of the day: response
"you may have beat the game with your controller, but you lost the game naughty dog was playing with your soul-" I had to put on a jacket, that was so cringe it gave me goosebumps.
He makes a good point if you’re unable to forgive abby. After everything Joel did, her actions were understandable, though they didn’t bring her peace. Some people aren’t emotionally matured enough to look deeper. Sad really cuz the game is fucking amazing. Is it perfect? Nah. No game is.
@@jacobreeves3110 I don’t think they should have let Abby live. When Ellie found her tied to a pole by the rattlers Abby should have been dead then. Jerry paid for his actions when Joel killed him. Then Joel paid for his when Abby not only killed him, TORTURED HIM. Why doesn’t Abby have to pay for hers, even if it’s not at the hands of Ellie? Especially when they didn’t put in enough work to make Abby like-able. And I tried to like her, I really did. They could have made her an incredible villain. They chose to force you into “understanding” her but like she’s barely a character whatever she does is just what the writers want her to do and it’s done poorly. Ellie shouldn’t have gotten to kill Abby, but Abby shouldn’t have gotten to live after doing stuff that was way more gruesome and brutal than we ever saw Joel do.
@@hailey8941 I get where you’re coming from. In my opinion, if Ellie killed Abby, then In a way it would be like killing herself. Abby didn’t find peace when she killed the man responsible for killing her father. It was only when she let go and started living for others, that’s when she found peace. My only wish is that Ellie in game found out more about Abby’s past and motivations. It would make more sense. But I think she Joel and herself in Abby and lev. I personally liked Abby. I really liked lev and Owen. And I think Ellie knows that Joel wouldn’t want this for her.
Peak GF Reviews moment
@@jacobreeves3110You're telling me just killing Abby would've been the one that really "kills" her? Not the hundreds of people who's throats she slowly cuts, blows their limbs off and hear them die screaming, and overall viciously murders? Abby is where the line is drawn?
star wars episode 3 video game let you switch between Anakin and obi-wan, Anakin became villain and you play as him when he attacks the temple, kill Jedi and even an alternate ending where he wins.
I don't understand, the younglings were clearly the villains.
@@ManOfStamp38 I heard Yoda was actually profiting from the war, selling weapons.
@@Historyfan476AD *selling death sticks
@@jbark678 yeah that on the side as well.
How memorable something is or isn’t, doesn’t make it good or bad. The Room is one of the most hilariously memorable movies of all time, but literally no aspect of The Room can be considered “good”
I forgot most of the plot of RDR 2 because of how long it is but doesn't mean it's shit. I forgot Pulp Fiction but that doesn't mean Pulp Fiction is shit. His logic there just falls apart
@@jasonalv7436 Very true.
@@jasonalv7436 So if someone asks you why is RDR2 good, you’re not gonna be able to tell them why… great logic there. Also imagine telling RDR2 fanboys the story is forgettable, you’ll get shredded to pieces
@@ttime441 "Why is RDR 2's story good?" I'll answer that question by saying I cried in the end or I could even say that I had a great time with its story. I remember the main events that happen like Arthur's death and Dutch's betrayal but I don't remember a lot of the side activities or some things that happen at the beginning, it is an 80 hour long game and you're along for the ride but when you've reached the 70 hour mark, you start to forget the things you did at the 10 hour mark. I also never said RDR 2's story is forgettable
@@jasonalv7436 If you forget most of the plot, then it’s pretty forgettable, also you gotta elaborate more than just a character died and I cried
in danganronpa 2 you get to play as an antagonist for a brief part, you get to see the twisted way they see the world, it is short and because the game just shows you the perspective of a different character as they are and let's you draw your own conclusion on them it felt much more effective than playing as Abby for 10 hours with the game forcing you to empathize with her
The idea that Joel has become complacent is not conjecture, it is clearly contradicted in the game.
In TLOU2, Joel is still reminding Ellie to wear her mask around others so that the secret of her immunity does not become common knowledge. The secret is so well guarded that when Dina, Ellie's close friend for years, is told the secret she feels insulted by what she thinks is Ellie just joking around instead of revealing a serious personal detail.
It's also clear the town has not become complacent generally as they are constantly on alert for both zombies and raiding parties, which is why they are sending out ranging expeditions in the first place.
Excellent point!
@@MacabreStorytelling May I also mention that in the 4 years Joel has been living in Jackson he’s been a part of a new community of people and gained new attachments and wanting to keep his new group safe? If anything you’d be more on edge with more than just Ellie to safeguard
If I may also add, Jesse tells Ellie how Joel was lecturing Jesse about his patrol routes, this was the night before Joel died lol. Jesse also says he looked up to Joel. Joel is still as careful as ever in the game, which makes his death even worse.
@@MacabreStorytelling An important line that people rarely acknowledge is that Joel actually expressed some discomfort around Abby and his group when they met. While Joel and Tommy were tending to their horses, he rejects Nora's offer to remove the saddles and states that they'll just ride out the storm instead. Clearly showing discomfort in his dialogue but immediately after he walks dead center into a room filled with armed strangers.
@@KTH96 When I saw them arrive at their place, I was questioning their willingness to simply enter it without any sort of precaution. No matter how safe your situation may seem, you must always be wary of others.
UA-cam debates usually boil down this, each side trying to find the worst possible argument the other side has made and then inflating that point as much as possible to then easily debunk it and call it a win. What's the point in defeating a weak argument? What's the point in answering a dumb post made by a troll? If we want to elevate the debate we should always answer to the best possible arguments to find even stronger ones. Thanks for this video, it was much needed e.e.
The only time defeating a weak argument elevates the debate is when the response actually informs the public about the system being discussed and possible ways to improve upon it.
Outside of that context, bringing down a poorly thought-out argument is all about feeling good about yourself and the thing you're defending. I'll never be on the side of people that do this, no matter how stupid the original argument could possibly be.
I have even less respect for people who cherry pick the stupid among all critiques to somehow make it appear as if "the other side" are all belonging to the dumb, bigoted and harassment categories (or "sjw" and any other empty terms used to disregard anyone).
Had to give this a thumbs up. You perfectly summed up youtube debates in thd comment sections.
@@cormano64 Considering Neil Druckmann and Laura Bailey received death threats and the fact Neil had every right to make a sequel with whatever artistic creativity. The Last of Us and it's characters belong to Neil bitches. Neil does not have to cow tow to your fanboy fantasies. Bitch! Neil is an artist and he has the right to use his property however he wants to.
@@Jew-Gi-Oh_419 Damn you sound like a child. Sure if Neil can do whatever he wants, we can say whatever we want. Even tho what he wants to do to the characters were so disrespectful to them. Also when I think about it, every single movie is what the "artist" wants. So I guess criticism should never exist because that's what the writers wanted lmao piss off
@@jasonalv7436 I never said you should never criticise anything. I'm just responding to this idea that artists should be constrained to what society wants and demands. Also better to be a "child" than some monstrous insane incel who threatens to murder a woman's son because they hated the character she voiced. I myself hate this game and the first one so don't mistake me as some Fanboy because I hate Naughty Dog and their games. Hell, I hate Rockstar and their games like GTA 5 and Red Dead Redemption 2. I do agree that The Last of Us Part 2 has a garbage and generic story with horrible writing, pacing, too much plot armor, and too much contrivances. Neil Druckmann loved Joel more than any of you and the way Joel's death was handled perfectly in such a brutal, grounded, and realistic way that wasn't cliche.
Dunkey is super funny but what happens with these comedic "reviewers" is that the line between serious critique and troll shit becomes blurred and that they can flip flop between whichever when it's convenient
Well said 👍 I try to keep the line between my comedic/sh*tpost vids and my more serious critiques pretty clear, even if my serious critiques do incorporate comedy at times.
Yeah it really seems annoying when big guys like Dunkey can "critique" something but then switch between serious analysis and goofy spaghetti and meatballs so random xd. Consistency is key
..... because it adds to the humor. How are you guys missing that?
@@dr.wolfstar1765 You missed the damn point. If he's trying to be taken seriously at all with his criticism, then just being a fool doesn't make "uh it adds to the humor" a good excuse at all. How did you miss that.
@@Im.Smaher maybe you should just use your brain. It's obvious when dubkry is being sarcastic and when he's being serious. So by your logic, dunkey can't have a serious game review because he has jokes on his videos....take some time and actually look at some his game reviews because he actually has serious reviews believe it or not.
In regards to the two finger guitar playing; Django Reinhardt could only use two of his fingers due to burns and he is one of the best guitarists of all time.
Also Tony Iommi, Lost the tips of his Middle and Ring Fingers in an Industrial Accident and replaced them with self-made casings
Managed to be one of the most influential and greatest guitarists in the heavy Metal scene
And well, Ellie could just touch the guitar with the other perfect hand. It could be difficult yet it's plausible.
@@N12015 Or she could become a maverick one hand and one foot guitar player?
@@Anacronian I think they exist, I wouldn't be surprised.
I guess Ellie isnt the greatest guitar player of all time. I suppose that's another example of terrible writing eh?
I think Dunkey’s argument on Abby’s grey morality falls flat. A morally grey character isn’t one that does an equal amount of noble and repugnant deeds like he says. A morally grey character does repugnant deeds with noble intentions or noble deeds but at a repugnant price. To simply have an equal balance of good and bad deeds is silly. To do things that have no objective morally correct decision is grey or a better term would be morally ambiguous.
Saving the life of your surrogate little daughter at the cost of any chance at a vaccine for humanity? Morally grey. Jerry Anderson willing to kill a little girl in order to obtain a vaccine to try and immunize humanity? Morally grey. Wanting to kill a little girl without her consent but also being nice to zebras? Not morally grey. Abby killing hundreds of Scars, painfully almost torturously beating to death a man who saved her life minutes prior while making his loved one watch, and committing adultery with Owen behind Mel’s back but also petting dogs, rescuing zebras, and saving scar children for no discernible reason (or even spoken reason because even the writers couldn’t find a way to rationalize Abby’s turn on a dime for them) does not make her a morally grey character. That just makes them shitty human beings. Which is fine but is not the nuanced literary device they think it is.
Gotta give you a massive thumbs up for this one, chief.
She is designed to be that way, owen is morally grey, but abby, is even called out by one of her "friends" -you are a piece of shit- then abby cries because she know it's true, then she just cling to the only thing that could redeem her, lev.
@@estacion7386 Right and that’s fine but that alone doesn’t make her an interesting character. And even then, the conversation is about if Abby is morally grey and the answer is no but many who defend the game and Abby’s character claim she is. That’s all I’m saying.
@@stutterfly4722 and i agree with you
@@stutterfly4722 I have seen some defenders saying that the game "subtly" shows Abby feels guilty of killing Joel and her actions caused the cycle of revenge that killed her friends and wanted to put stop it. But here is the problem, when she confronts and is willing to kill Ellie, her actions are very contradictory. Not only she beat Ellie with inch of her life but was willing to take pleasure into slitting Dina's throat despite knowing she is pregnant as her expression shows her smiling only to stop because Lev gave her the look and not by her own accord. While i understand that Abby was angry because Ellie killed her friends but it was Abby whose actions caused harm to her friends. Abby never shows any remorse to Ellie about killing Joel. I am not saying Abby has to forgive Ellie, but if she wants to end cycle of revenge and bury the hatchet she could have lament to Ellie about how Joel's death didn't bring her any happiness and made her life even worse also telling that revenge was not worth it. In that way, i think i could have easily sympathized with Abby if Abby showed any ounce of remorse and trying to bury the hatchet.
The night before Joel dies he says he would save Ellie from the fireflies again which makes it seem like he HAS NOT changed at all since the ending of the last game
His love for Ellie is the thing that hasn't changed. But through his love for Ellie he managed to reconnect with his lost humanity.
I just wish Dunkey would respond to the more intelligible comments instead of just going after the simplistic/dumb ones.
He did go after the intelligible ones lmao he said “people don’t like this game for valid reasons” and showed multiple comments of why It was bad, for not having Donkey Kong, excluding the Cheescake Factory, etc.
@@imfreaking_gaming8785
Yeah. See. That doesn't work when he tries to distract that with lul donkey kong jokes
@@frogglen6350 no, I’m not kidding. It is a valid reason.
@@imfreaking_gaming8785 Those aren't core issues with the game though, they're inconsequential gripes.
@@wisemage0 no they are core issues
The most infuriating thing about how Dunkey structured that video, was that he didn't tackle the top comments, because if you look at the top comments, those are the one's which demonstrate the strongest responses. And of course they would, when people thumbs-up comments, they're doing it for a reason. The top comments are a much better representation of how his audience responded than what he depicted them as via going through them by most recent.
It comes off as downright disingenuous.
He doesn’t care bud
@@andrewschaefer6452 he clearly does care if he’s purposely looking for shit takes on why the last of us 2 is bad instead of just looking at the top comments and making an argument for it.
@@belligerent2941 paragraph boy
@@andrewschaefer6452 if that looks like a paragraph to you then I’m sorry to say the school system in your country has failed you 🙏
@Schadenfreude are you jealous because nobody cares about your opinion the same way people do theirs?
I watched Girlfriend Reviews' video and they mentioned that the game's story structure is very similar to Pulp Fiction because there are multiple character's story told in a different time period but after rewatching Pulp Fiction, I have to say that Pulp Fiction was a lot more complex and you don't really know if a certain event happened after/before another event which makes the movie seem like a puzzle to be solved. Do you have any comment on this cuz I have a feeling I might be wrong
Yeah tbh it felt more like "hey I googled non linear movies and this is the first one that popped up"
@UCzTMVNStuuSCcEve_d2ovNw Thank god I'm not alone, I thought I was insane
@@MacabreStorytelling When they said that shit I groaned out loud. GF Reviews is very funny, but their analysis skills, like Dunkey’s, are lacking. Their CP2077 video is proof of that as well IMO.
@@josephabrams8529 ooo haven’t checked that one out yet. Brb
@@MacabreStorytelling Have fun. I hope it speaks to you more than it did me. I personally struggled to find what their overarching point was and found their arguments muddy.
Also, I just watched your ADD/ADHD video. Excellent work as always sir.
Dunkeys idea of response is either cherry picking stupid comments and just not responding to the smart ones by either ignoring them or making a stupid joke in response without any counter arguments.
You just hate Dunkey because he's black.
You're quite right and I wanted to point this out too. There are many thoughtful comments on that video that Dunkey would've tackled but he wanted to just shut people up by making fun of them.
Lol every comments on that video are pure stupidity, blindly calling it a trash
In his defense most of the comments bashing his review and the game are dog shit. I mean you try and find a good, well thought out comment in dunkey's last of us review. I've checked several times and haven't found any.
@@dalgusmaximus4557 because he deletes them. Including mine
That doesn't strike you as a remote possibility?
Dunkey took his catchphrase "Nope You are nitpicking and biased I win bye bye" a little too seriously
CinemaSins is painful at this point. Especially how they edit clips (or use foreign trailer footage) to justify their feigned ignorance. I enjoy Th3 Birdman correcting or sinning CinemaSins!
The only sins channel I watch at this point is Dartigan's, it's obvious he's being a shitter by nitpicking and even though it's for the laughs 95% of the time and he's way off some of those time there's a few real good points here and there that get me.
It's a game sins channel tho, not cinema.
@@sirocco2810 allow me to point you to Metal Gear Solid 1 where he says that Ravens are not in Alaska
But... cinema sims isn’t serious... they’re literally being facetious...lmfao. It’s not literal critique.
@@redielg Shroedingers sin: when its invalid its a joke, when a sin is valid its a valid critique. You cant know which it is until you think about it
CinemaSins is satire through and through. People know it but still take it seriously because "Oh no he said a thing that annoys me".
If a fat person says "I think I'm one Big Mac away from cardiac arrest", that's a joke right? But it could be true too, right? So many have this argument "The point they make is true/false so it's not just satire anymore." This phenomenon is called Missing the Fucking Joke On Purpose
Just let the player choose if they wanna kill abby at the end
Interesting. Perhaps if you kill Abby and then Ellie returns home and it is made clear she has lost Dina and JJ forever, it basically drives the point home that Ellie's fate to be alone was sealed the moment she left Dina and JJ, thus, cementing that killing Abby really didn't mean anything.
I feel like one of the major changes that the story needed to actually make it good is for Abby to die in the final fight. The story is all about “the cycle of violence,” so in order for the character development of Ellie to be completed Abby must die.
The first game showed a hardened survivor like Joel turning from sinner to saint thanks to Ellie being an innocent child through most of the first game. Meanwhile, we get hints that Ellie’s compassion and innocence is slowly eroding because of the events of the winter chapter with David and the Cannabal group. Because of this, it would only be logical from a writing point of view to show Ellie as the survivor who turned from saint to sinner. She starts losing her humanity after Joel’s death and eventually becomes the same kind of monster Abby was from the beginning of the game. Killing Abby would only complete this journey into sin and show the gamer how empty revenge really is.
My other changes in the story would also be: giving Joel a more respectful death befitting his character, and having us not play as Abby at all or even trying to sympathize with her and her friends at all. They are the Villains! They should only exist to help Ellie descend to their level in a thematic sense, which means that instead of trying to manipulate the gamer into liking Abby and crew, we should recognize why they became evil so that they become relatable villains that you don’t root for, but can easily understand where they come from psychologically.
Neil’s pandering to liberals though ruins what could have been a good revenge-is-bad story into a confusing mess that looks more like a piece of liberal propaganda rather than what it was trying to go for.
If they did that it would become to apparent how poorly they wrote Abby as a character cause most would not hesitate at all. They could not own up to their failure as a writer. So they refused to give players the choice.
@@MacabreStorytelling That's not the point of the game, though. It is not "revenge will cost you everything." The overarching message for me is the tragic nature of misunderstanding and, in this case, Ellie misunderstands that killing Abby would help her pain. She needed to be drowning Abby to finally have a moment of clarity, which is that this means nothing to her. Abby was just a distraction from the real source of her pain, which is highlight by the final flashback on the porch. She needed to hit her lowest breaking point in order to have this. Killing Abby would not serve any purpose. In fact, it would cause more issues by leaving Lev defenseless. That's why Ellie tells Abby to take him and leave.
@@genericwhiteguy2910 The problem is that even if I would go with the idea that Ellie HAD to be seconds away from drowning Abby in order to understand this, the ending does have Ellie understanding this which is seen as a redemptive moment, but this is underscored by the fact that Ellie, by this point has slaughtered Lord knows how many people and thus the game underscores its own point. The game featured Abby's story to show how Ellie;s story is not any more important than any one elses, and yet the game treats her not killing Abby as a stepping back from the edge moment, thus holding her life in higher regard. I am glad Ellie learned her lesson but the fact she had to do so much heinous shit to get their makes her into an utterly despicable character.
I'm tired of people trying to say what they did with this story was bold sure you can say the same thing about trying to kidnap someone in broad daylight. its a pretty bold move too but that doesn't mean its smart or a good idea 🤣
My main problem with the game was that they want to in a way either justify or redeem abbey. But they forgot to make her likeable. Which is why it doesn’t work. I know it’s subjective but I always compare abbey to Negan from the walking dead. He entered the story killing two fan favourites. But him being extremely fun and charismatic made people instantly like him. And over the coarse of the show his motives and backstory is explained and makes him more human. And at this current point of the show he has been able to redeem himself in the eyes of the fans and some of the characters. But unlike abbey, Negans past actions will still screw him over and if he gets his comic end. It means that whilst he redeemed himself, he doesn’t get off unpunished. Whereas, abbey is hard to get behind (pun intended) and it makes her redemption hard to believe. And Ellie sparing abbey means that her past actions have no consequences
"noo you dont have to symphatise to the characters they have to be morally questionablw and sad to be complex!"
There is no redemption for the GameStop ma’am
I liked her
And like her friends died right, but I didnt connect with any of them and the fact that we killed most of them off already just didnt feel right
I don't think they're trying to make her likeable. Just someone to empathise. She's dry and shut off because of her grief.
SPOILERS:
When he said that Marvel’s Spider-Man’s plot and characters weren’t memorable and said TLoU2 characters were, I thought he was joking. Aunt May’s death is imo more impactful than Joel’s, because it shows us why Peter is Spider-Man. That he was willing to make the important sacrifices to save a city full of people. Joel’s death didn’t have any impact for me. It didn’t tell us anything about Abby, Ellie, or even Joel for that matter. It was just a way to shock the players and kickstart an elementary kids idea of “revenge bad”. The fact that TLoU2 got 7 awards and Marvel’s Spider-Man got nothing, blows my fucking mind.
@itacheems Oh no I get that, but Dunkey’s trying to prove the point about why he loves the story and thinks it’s memorable. Which I commend him for, but as Macabre shows in this video, a lot of his points are disingenuous and are backhanded excuses. He gives a shallow reasoning on why he thinks Marvel’s Spider-Man (and other games) are not memorable and why TLoU2 is. It’s almost feels like Dunkey himself doesn’t know why he likes TLoU2 so much and is just simply being reactive about the comments.
@@ofenderz alot of what he says is "DiSINGeNuOuS" 😂 meanwhile you ALL call him Dunky....👌
And why we love part2 so much....cause it's a beautiful game, a masterpiece tbh and it'll only be looked at better with time👍
@@VannywiththeFanny denies presented contrived death for superficial shock value
"It's a masterpiece"
@@eziospaghettiauditore8369 bro I love Joel but I'm adult enough to see his death wasn't "contrived" and since when is "shock value" a bad thing? Joels death was the most intense gaming moment I've ever had, I mean that moment as Ellie creeping up on the house and you can here Joel yelling with the music base beating...it's absolutely intense af idk how you missed this!?
lmao no way anut may's hit harder than joel you messed up man
There's a good argument to be made that the original God of War saga pulls the 'now play as the villain' trick *without* changing the playable character
Especially by GoW3. The only issue is, the framing is still on Kratos’ side. We as rational people know that Kratos destroying the entire world is awful, but the game still treats him as a victim of the gods, who are all terrible people that consistently antagonize him and do as much as possible to threaten and kill him.
For sure. I think the player wouldn't be wrong to think of everyone as a villain by that point in the narrative.
@@TheMurrmursonbottle destroying the world is not awful, if the people that rule it are worst. And of course the drama centers kratos, of all things gods created , he was the one that hated the most. That vengeance ends well because he releases something (spoiler) hope to mankind, releasing us from the fate of gods.
And people said that the old GoW games weren't deep, even the fucking creator of the character... So sad
TheBadWolf good art is always deep it’s a consequence of making good art.
If you go out of your way to make something deep it will come off as pretentious and or edgy.
I get more joy and entertainment watching you talk about TLOU2 then I ever did with the game
Hopefully I should be done with it after Part 2 of this video... at least for the foreseeable future.
Ikr
These are my favorite videos on the internet istg
Damn, sucks for you then bro it's a great game👍
@@MacabreStorytelling how is the game so bad if you don't mind my asking brah? Really tho no hate, just what reasons didn't you like it?
the game is great
When Dunkey said that he remembered Joel I was confused. No one remembers what Joel did in TLOU2 besides dying. If anything they remember him for TLOU1.
This is like saying that Thor in age of Ultron was memorable due to him appearing in the Thor film
Someday, someone ought to make a documentary about what was happening behind the scenes at Naughty Dog when developing this game
There’s just so much disjointed, half-baked story ideas and gameplay mechanics I just *have* to know how this was made
Think whatever you want about the story, but what the fuck ,,half-baked" gameplay mechanics are you even talking about? ua-cam.com/video/rWEkdMF_kwo/v-deo.html&t This video alone explains how broken tlou1's gameplay is compared to tlou2.
@@ULTRAOutdoorsman ellie was literally killing a shit ton of zombies and people with that same knife in the first game. i’ve replayed the game on act permadeath grounded and it’s not easy (but maybe i’m just a normie)
@@user-ly2ll5od1r Oh yeah, use the first game to compare to the second game without realising that the 2nd game should be as good or better than the first game. Great comparison.
@@MrAsh1100 Are you really that dense or are you just pretending? the guy was complaining that a 100lb girl was murdering dudes that were 2x her weight. I respond by giving an argument that she's been doing that in the 1st game while being even smaller and that isn't a problem in THAT game, but IT IS in the second one apparently... + all the other bs that he wrote and miraculously managed to get upvoted 7 times even tho all he wrote were literal lies.
@@user-ly2ll5od1r So why respond to me instead you should be replying back to the guy that said that? I was just pointing out that it should be obvious that TLoU 2's gameplay is supposed, since its a sequel, to be better than the first game. Its called being obvious. Also, I never said anything else so yeah, empty respond to my obvious respond
Disjointed rant incoming:
I feel as if the narrative of the game, which can be summarized as "The cycle of violence is bad" is contradicted by the gameplay, in which you slaughter dozens of people without remorse to get to your end goal.
The writers seemed to have realized this, and that is why they have the system of each enemy having their own name. This mechanic, however, shows itself to be quite shallow and vacuous, as Ellie and Abby themselves show no actual reaction to this mechanic, and never address it, therefore never presenting any tangible depth to it.
The cycle of violence is only bad when the writers want it to be so. Ellie just killed a pregnant lady, what a demon!
Oh? Abby just nonchalantly relished in the opportunity to kill a pregnant woman? Well, that's just part of her psyche, man. Don't sweat it.
I like how Dunky claims that sympathy you gain for Abby is not hammy. When you literally have her father be a paragon of virtue, you have her be in the exact same relationship that was present in the first game that garnered so much praise, you have her pet dogs you killed as Ellie.
Besides that, the pacing of this game is absolutely atrocious. This AB plot structure just sweeps all of the tension from the moment it switches to B, it feels so forced and arbitrary, right after she shoots two characters you care somewhat about, here's her entire life story buck-o!
(An ABABAB structure would've been much better in my opinion.)
if Crunchmann cared about how violence was bad he wouldn't have the kill animations be as long and gruesome as they are
I think the structure of the plot was done so that you forget about all the terrible things Abby and her friends did. it makes you restart and wipes clean the slate that was tarnished by them killing Joel. they can't make you like Abby despite what she did, so they try to get you to forget what she did.
When you say: "ABABABAB" real fast it sounds like Abby lol.
I'm one of the folks who actually enjoyed my time with this game, but even I disagree with the theme being "violence is bad". The characters are living in a post-apocalyptic world overrun by Infected pseudo-zombies and have to kill and hunt in order to survive. It wouldn't make sense for this to be the lesson when it doesn't match with the setting.
@@thebatmanofneo-gotham5667 I think that if Niel Druckman wanted to tell this story he should've made a new IP. there was no reason to use The Last Of Us, since he barely even used the zombies, and the connection between Ellie and Joel could have been illustrated just as well with new characters.
Sweet Christmas he’s back
Oh, but he's back
He's the man behind the mask
And he's out of control
He's back
The man behind the mask
And he crawled out of his hole
Imagine a fighter who trained his whole life to become champion. He beat dozens of opponents and everyone knows he will win the title. Then he pulls out last second to start at McDonalds. That’s what this ending is.
Yeah killing a ton of people, abandoning your family just to have a desperate attempt to ease your ptsd is so comparable to trying to be the best at a sport
@@ronpodolfo2381 um it is very comparable, wtf are you talking about? Beating lower skilled opponents gradually as you work you way up to the Champion/ Antagonist. You’re just plain wrong.
@@ronpodolfo2381 honestly yes OP had it right on the money with the analogy
@@ronpodolfo2381 Bro doesn't understand a basic analogy that anyone with a third grade reading level could understand 💀
I wish you luck because you’ll have to deal with Dunkey’s drones when he references you in a future video. Godspeed, brother.
The only drone is you.
That's not a thing. You're just a child.
Yeah. This a good take and that's all. Let's just don't pay much attention to the 'drones'.
"Drones"
those people make me ashamed of liking dunkey
*The word you are searching is Narrative Dissonance*
Maybe add the ludo
@@thecaremaker1001 every game naughty dog makes suffers massively from extremely jarring ludonarrative dissonance, which makes me wonder why people are so hung up on this game in particular.
don't you mean Ludonarrative Dissonance?
@@koichidignitythief7429 They are the same. But Ludonarrative Dissonance it's more commonly used when talking aboth games and Narrative Dissonance it's used more when talking aboth movies and Stories.
@@dio52 It's their latest one and the sequel to a much beloved game by many who enjoy a more story focused game (not me), so it makes sense.
By the way, I'd be down to have this type of criticism levied at Naughty Dog and the rest of the AAA section of the industry in general. Kind of like the way NakeyJakey has been doing lately, but by far more people.
The bigots sandwiches explosion fuckin killed me lmaooo
Assassin’s Creed III let’s you play as the antagonist at the start, but a lot of people hated that game. So I can see why it’s not brought up as much.
Not only that, but that villain was the protagonist’s father!
Hell I much preferred playing him over Connor.
A lot of people preferred to play as him than the actual protagonist, who turned out to be a very bland character in comparison.
It should have just been Haytham's game he was better then Connor the charisma sponge
What do you mean? Its the perfect game for this discussion! The assassins are the villains!!!
So the reason Abby's section feels so clunky and rushed is because during play-testing, it was so poorly received that the developers had to change aspects to get the minimal amount of hate for that section. They KNEW people would hate Abby's section, but were dead set on it anyway.
Wait really??? I didn’t know
Watching most analysis of the game reminded me of my literature professor in University. When he was explaining about literary approaches in the literary analysis, he gave the recommendation of avoiding the reader-response approach. He stated that while not being impossible to analyse a story from this approach; it tends to get to very weak conclusions most of the time since the reader response varies from reader to reader and limits your analysis to just the subjective experience you get with the story. And well, I noticed that most of analysis of TLOU2 just did this. They rely too much on the player's feelings and get to very debatable conclusions because of that. Every player is different, so every experience varies, and to base your whole take on something as unstable as that is a very problematic decision. And well, that is very noticeable in girlfriend reviews and dunkey's videos.
Most positive reviews and analysis of the game seems way too melodramatic imo. They are trying a little too hard to make the viewer feel emotions either through their soothing voice or with a line from the game to make something sound poetic and emotional instead of actually making strong arguments to defend themselves. It sounds very pretentious at times. Kinda like the game
that explains why half the player base loves the game and the other half hates it.
It would be better to kill abby and feel bad about it than want to kill abby and not get it. Or... ya know, give the player the choice.
There's a game I forgot the name of where the final boss turns out to have been a fantasy the protagonist made up to get closure because the person he wanted revenge on was already dead. I think something like that would have worked better for Last of Us 2 than it's actual ending.
@@runningcommentary2125 oh you mean spec ops the line? The game about a guy who wants to be a hero so bad that he did horrible things and had to create a villian to justify his actions.
In that game, you can end it three ways; wait for the military to pick you up and pay for your crimes, kill them and become a war criminal, or die in a gun fight with them.
Excellent ending.
@@royaljunior2125 Those three endings are only available if you chose to "take responsability of your actions" suicide, or keep blaming the ilusion "that's what you believe? Then shoot me"
Not every game needs to give the player the choice in the ending. In fact, the VAST majority of games do not.
You’re playing a story as written. You’re not writing the story.
@@EccentricMeat xD bad argument, specially when you talk about videogames, videogames are scripted, yup, but the point of making them is to DO.
Part 2 is supposedly not a vengeance plot, but a "forgiveness" one (is a very bad one) ellie as the player has the rigth to do what they want with abby, both grow with joel, and both deserve the chance to kill or spare her, i'm sure the reason naugthy dog don't allow that, was because abby would have been killed by everyone, including ellie, even at the end, there was no signal of ellie forgiving her
Regarding my criticism of your tlou2 analysis, I thought it was excellent overall, with minor disagreements here and there, but I have to say my biggest gripe was how you labeled Joel's actions leading up to his death as merely contrived, rather than extremely out of character. I know you probably heard this a lot and are tired of it, and I know this point was beaten to death. I know you just might not be as interested in rehashing this point as plenty of people have done it already, and that's totally fine, I liked how you focused on other characters and topics that other reviews have neglected.
But I just find it funny how you took huge issue with Maria's actions, despite what little characterization she had beforehand, and how inconsequential she was in the overall narrative, and labeled it not only as illogical but also as out of character (which is not wrong), using similar criteria and arguments I would use to prove Joel was out of character. And it's worse in Joel's case because his character was very well established, that betraying it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Here are my arguments on the matter:
The circumstances leading to his death were so serendipitous as to be unbelievable, a billion coincidences had to happen for Abby to be able to find a vulnerable Joel: ua-cam.com/video/XCeHFLGXN4g/v-deo.html.
Joel, the ever so paranoid veteran survivor, forgot about all of his survival instincts as he goes to extreme lengths to save a stranger, then proceeds to trust a random group of heavily armed strangers, and make himself completely vulnerable to them.
Here is a conversation from the first game between Bill and Joel:
"You know, as bad as those things are, at least they're predictable. It's the normal people that scare me. You (Joel) of all people should know that.
"
So yeah, Joel and bill alike, would rather try their luck with that horde of infected in that storm rather than trust strangers.
Joel was always paranoid in nature, in the prologue of the first game he refused to help a family on the road out of concern for his own family. that was even before the outbreak, and that family was 100 times less suspicious than a buff woman in military attire and a strange well-armed group, that shows up out of nowhere at Jackson's door, where all his loved ones live.
The game never even bothered to give us a scene where Joel is shown to have become incompetent or to have lost his touch. Instead, it even contradicts itself by showing Joel is still as paranoid as ever, with how he tells Ellie to wear her mask even with no one around, and how he lays down into Jesse about his patrol routes.
Jesse even says he looks up to Joel.
but then, Joel, while on patrol, walks into a room, filled with armed strangers, leaves all his weapons outside, gets himself all vulnerable, not having even his gun which he usually tucks under his belt on him (if he did, why didn't he attempt to shoot abby when she was about to swing that golf club at his head, and both his hands were free ?), tommy does as well, and allows himself to be surrounded from all sides ? nah. Why would Jesse look up to Joel if he was so incompetent in patrolling? Such behavior is very irresponsible and it endangers all the denizens of Jackson who put their faith in these people to protect them from unknown threats.
I could buy him and tommy went to save Abby, I could suspend my disbelief there, since there are some indications that Jackson tends to rescue families in need (keyword being families, not suspicious individuals armed to their teeth, but still). What I do not buy is how easily he and tommy trusted her, and how carelessly they behaved around her group. How both him and tommy left their backpacks outside, walked into the middle of the room, getting themselves surrounded by heavily armed strangers, and how relaxed they seemed to act around them.
That is not a "softer" Joel, that is a "soft in the head" Joel. This is even reinforced by him not realizing the impending danger when the atmosphere abruptly shifted in the room upon hearing his name, and saying ‘y'all act like ya heard of us or something’, as Tommy carelessly watched Abby pull out the shotgun, aim it at Joel, load it and shoot him in the knee (Maybe Tommy has bad eye sight, after all the room was somewhat dark. Oh wait, he's a fucking sniper !).
Yet, it gets worse: Tommy later on tells Ellie that he saw and recognized the WLF patches. Him and Joel also saw the huge military truck inside the garage, lying right in front of them. In what world would Joel trust a military group and forget when his daughter Sarah was killed by the military, after he TRUSTED them, and when Ellie was almost killed by a similar group called the Fireflies?
All of this and I didn’t mention the name fiasco, because how the hell does a 14 year old Ellie know that revealing her name to strangers is not ok, (something she learned from Joel btw, after he gave her a look of dismay when she revealed her name to henry), but a veteran survivor Tommy does not. He even knows what his brother had done: did it never occur to him that his ex firefly buddies might give out his location and come look for Joel ?
I agree, however those guys just hear the name joel and went psyco mode, who knows how many joels they killed before getting the one
@@estacion7386 Not even how many Joel's but Joel Miller's too.
As Joel said when talking to Ellie about how he knows an ambush.
Ellie: What about the guy?
Joel: He ain't even hurt?
*Joel drives into the guy.*
Probably the best way I’ve seen this argument later out tbh I’ve felt the same way for a while but I’ve never been able to point out specific bits of evidence it was more or a nah that really doesn’t seem right (which I’ll admit I feel like that’s due to how good of a job was done in the first game with Joel’s character you could feel the paranoid radiating off that dude from a block away)
The only real coincidence besides the horde I see is that Abby saw the place Joel and Tommy were patrolling first and headed towards it. Tommy is a lot softer than Joel. He was fully willing to abandon his wife and friends to finish Joel’s job just because Joel said he should. Joel didn’t Abby’s group but what was he supposed to do? Fight the horde? Not go inside? Not that that would change much. Throughout the scene you see little things that say Joel is on edge around them. He’s very quiet. One of the few lines he says is when one of them asks if they want to remove their things from the horses he tells them to leave it. He fully intended to bolt the second he had the chance. But he never got it. He was caught in an impossible situation with a partner that trusted to easy. I don’t know what he could’ve done to mitigate that because they didn’t really have a choice
Perfect. Bravo.
I love laying out specific examples of bullshit, you made some points even I forgot about, more specifically Joel's paranoid nature even at the start of the outbreak, with the family that could've been infected. Again, just bravo good sir.
I really hate the Girlfriend Reviews argument "if you wanted to kill Abby at the end, you didn't get the game". You mean the writers didn't do a good job getting their point across? If so then I agree, they failed miserably.
Love your videos btw, would love to see you on EFAP someday.
I didn't want to kill Abby at the end so maybe you just have a one dimensional way of thinking since you can't see both sides of a story...why don't you put yourself if Abby's shoes for once and see what your reaction would be to someone killing your dad...
@@imkool51391 I probably wouldn't torture that man without hesitation after he saved my life.
I can understand having a very turbulent relationship with a father and having him die right in front of me. I have PTSD from it and wake up freaking out because I literally can’t comprehend a memory I have of my favourite person, the person who made me feel the MOST safe, despite our relationship being in the outs at the time of his death. I wanna make it right, to the point I do some pretty pointless things day to day just to honour my dad. Unfortunately, now that he’s gone I do really realize I didn’t know why he did the things he did, I only ever assumed. It’s hard to fit into the shoes of someone so colossal, especially when you desperately want to show them they taught you right
Im sorry for your loss hope you feel a little bit better now.
After spending some hours revisiting this discussion, planning on writing responses and criticisms, I came across you comment...
Reading your short story with your father broke my heart and brought tears to my eyes, made me remember why Joel was such a kind character for me.
I hope you can find solace in your father's memories, and even though you two had your relationship disrupted, I'm sure he would have loved if you'd try living knowing that he loved you.
I find your review to be right on the money. Last of us 2 did the opposite of what the first game did, they prioritized plot and scenarios rather than the characters. The first game was so beloved not because of how good the story is but rather the focus and care of Joel and Ellis relationship. Its ironic to think that the one portion that was beloved by both sides of this argument is the mesuem scene with Joel and ellie
There’s a difference between “in concept” vs “what we got”.
For instance, Far Cry 2 seems good on paper. But in reality the story doesn’t hold up with weak acting and characters. Leaving only the gameplay. Which also suffers with respawning enemies, a game that goes on for far too long, an ugly colour palette of “brown and yellow and realistic”, etc...
TLOU2 has similar issues in both gameplay and story.
That far cry 2 analysis is spot on. I've heard so many pretentious people say it's the best far cry and one of the most underrated games ever, but the problems you mention completely ruin the game, no matter how good it is in concept
I despise the people that suddenly started praising Far Cry 2, it's one of the dullest games i've ever played, i can't remember a single thing about the story and the gunplay is awful. I don't care how good the fire physics are.
The irony is that it's sequel Far Cry 3 does the whole "revenge and the cycle of violence is ultimately self destructive" better than The Last of Us Part 2.
Agreed. For some reason, TLOU Part II was grey, dark green, and dark brown to me. Especially during the Hospital and Hillcrest moments. People rave about the “graphics” and such, but as Angry Joe puts it, graphics aren’t everything. Not only that, but the lack of enemy variety and putrid hand to hand combat system was completely terrible.
Don’t forget “your just sexiest!” “You just hate buff women” ”your just a white man”
If the shoe fits.
@@Dragonage2ftw what is that supposed to mean
i indeed am the sexiest
It's my firm belief that this whole era started with the PR team at Sony. When they realized Ghostbusters was going to be a massive, massive disaster, they adopted a PR defense strategy of making their movie political so they could attack anyone that doesn't say it's great as a sexist prick, even if their reasons are 100% valid and not at all related to politics.
It didn't work well for them, but since then, it's the go-to everywhere in every medium. The journalist crowd falls for it like trained seals every time, too.
@@Dragonage2ftw So you do believe that every valid criticism stems from a place of sexism or racism?
Cosmonaut had THE worst take I’ve ever seen dude tries so hard to be the smartest person in the room and makes sure to say everyone else is an idiot lol
He had a shit take on BVS and MOS recently too. The only good take he ever had was that the clone wars was a great show. And thats just him restating a fact in that case. (Also his nasly voice is fucking grating)
@@MrPink-fx3xw yeah true almost all of his takes are shit which wouldn't be a problem if was likeable or humble rather then coming off as a complete douche I like lmost everything he covers but his personality makes it pretty unwatchable lol
agreed, comso is just a douche who thinks he k nows better, he complains that people look at the ship-crash (TLJ) to seriously after he turns around and complains lightsabers are used to fly.
He is so confusing
Cosmonaut blamed the Battle Angel Alita manga for why the movie adaptation felt rushed and messy while admitting to never having actually read the manga in the first place, because in his view "it was that obvious".
Though the director tried to crammed two or three full story arcs which took months and years to progress in the manga originally.
In summation, Cosmonaut is a stupid idiot who loves the sounds of his own voice more than actual logic and research.
@@cormano64 His jojo video is even worse. It was riddle with contradictions, double standards, and blatant misinformation. He based his points off the manga he read years ago and had burnout due to reading parts 1-6 with no break. I know he said it wasn't meant to be a well constructed review, but the fact that people actually took his points seriously concerns me since any fan who read and/or watched the series can point out obvious fallacies (especially in his part 5 segment).
Why do people suck tlou for switching to a villain? Nier automata did it
quite a few games do that, some even let your character turn from good to evil when you want to.
The Villain in Nier Automata are Adam and Eve, and the game didn't give option to control those characters, and I don't think those main characters can be called Villain or Heroes.
@@seeker6755 no? How many endings did you get
@@deadmeme4276 7 Endings I think and I don't think it's gonna make a Difference, It's becoming more of a chore than fun gaming, I might play again one Day but for now Witcher 3, that Game has more Content and Meaning than Automata ...
@@seeker6755 you're literally missing the 3rd act of the game
I'm glad that dunkey could enjoy a game that i couldn't enjoy but some his arguments are really bad like the one with him to remembering what happened in certain video game stories like DOOM eternal when that game (aside from lore) didn't have much story anyways that he couldn't remember what happened in them and i do find it incredibly funny that he's making fun of that days gone line while he's defending a game that unironicly has " bigot sandwiches" as a line spoken by character that we're suppose to take seriously
I think a better way to bring doom eternal into the argument would’ve been if he said something among the lines of “just as a game can be good by only its gameplay itself with no real story, a game can also be good with only story as well” and with that he could bring up example of dull gameplay of other games that makes it in positive reviews of the majority because of their story and characters. Though it could still be argued against, it is still a much better point than what was actually said.
He also mentions monster hunter world. I defy you to find a single mhw player that paid any attention to the story. Nobody plays monster hunter for the story, they play it for the gameplay and the progression
They probably didn't kill abby to have an easy way into a sequel.
If i have to guess, they probably will make abby finally find the fireflies and she will probably mention finding ellie, which will then send her on a quest to find her again in the hopes of creating the cure.
And just like the retcon in tlou 2 (where ellie says that she wanted to die on the hospital back then) ellie will probably sacrifice herself for humanity to give meaning to her death.
I can honestly see Abby and the Fireflies hunting down Ellie again and guilt-tripping or forcing her into sacrificing herself for the cure, as if killing Joel and Jesse, and crippling Tommy, weren't already traumatic enough for her.
hope she's the main character in the next. Why is that a retcon?
That wasn't a retcon. Ellie didn't want to die in the hospital, she just made peace with the fact that she had to if she was supposed to for the cure to happen. This was emphasized in the first game: Ellie did want her immunity to mean something, she wanted all of the sacrifices made for her survival to matter. She's mad at Joel because he took all of that away from her just to keep her in his life.
A good bit of Dunkey's video seems like "well i liked it, so you're wrong"
I legitimately think his video would have gotten more positive feedback if it was more honest
@@frogglen6350 dam, that's a good point
yeah because i think dunkey was aware of the tsunami of angry gamers that were gonna try unravel everything he said in his video. it’s not necessarily “you’re wrong” it’s “well i gotta defend my argument otherwise what am i standing on?” yano?
@@louisgately860 A karate plank, that's what
@@somethingwithultra7231 how so? i genuinely am curious, no disrespect.
28:47 maybe if she ends up killing Abby she knows that Lev wouldn’t survive on his own and that killing her wouldn’t make the pain better so she would realize everything she’d done was for nothing even after achieving her goal.
I do like that! I actually love the parallel between Abby carrying Lev off to Joel carrying Ellie in Part 1. It was just Ellie goading Abby into the fight that seemed too over the top.
Halo 2 did the perspective switch in 2004. Arbiter is technically a villain for the first two thirds of the game. The idea might be rare but it isn't new or particularly bold in any sense.
Arbiter is unambiguously redeemed. There's literally no gray area or moral complexity in Halo 2.
@@leonkuwata4510 Arbiter is not in any sense redeemed by the end of Halo 2. It isn't even technically until the end of Halo 3 that the Sangheli are even allies at all. At best they and the humans shared a common enemy. If anything it's kind of a missed opportunity that the fact that Arbiter is arguably responsible for every human death in the first game is never addressed.
half life did too in 1998
my biggest reason for not liking playing as abbey is this... The game feels so "on rails" when playing as abbey. Why is that you ask? Because im having to play as a character I do not like nor want to play as and I am forced to do things that I do NOT WANT to do, like attacking and trying to kill ellie. it just brakes my immersion, Feels super linear and just not fun. Naughty dog failed to make me feel any compassion for abbey. I still wanted to kill her at the end of the game, probably even more than I did in the beginning. I know what ND was trying to do, but it didn't work on me. I'm not a fucking character in this universe. I am a player, playing a video game, my soul is not at risk here. I'm not saying the game is bad, i'm just saying it wasn't really for me.
You're just nitpicking and bias I win bye bye
22:23 ...Eww, just eww. The evangelization of this game is so damn cringeworthy.
I find it ironic that GF Reviews while talking about a game that ostensibly taught them empathy makes an incredibly judge mental claim about anyone who didn’t have the exact same experience they did. Losing the game ND was playing with my soul doesn’t sound too far off from a Jehova’s Witness telling anybody of a different belief system from them that they’re going to hell and need to see the light.
The big thing for me was how the game was hailed as groundbreaking when I felt a lot of its themes were elementary.
@@MacabreStorytelling Agreed, I also felt its overarching theme of “all-encompassing hate” was perhaps too broad. As such it ends up having multiple thematic versions of that hatred, none of which get explored particularly well. There’s themes of tribalism, bigotry, revenge, forgiveness, and empathy, yet none of them feel properly explored to me. The foolhardy conflict between the WLF and the Seraphites being a particularly egregious example of a story that had so much potential yet was squandered.
Needless to say, if this was an argumentative essay, and I was Neil’s English teacher, I’d say he needed to narrow down his thesis and research question.
This game is a masterpiece. Why do you ask? Shut the heck up!
@@MacabreStorytelling It's also the fact that the game was so dark while also maintaining its maturity. Most "UBER-DARK" games are just edgy bullshit like Hatred or Agony.
@@leonkuwata4510 I mean, Hatred is a bad example, it's borderline satire if you ask me. It has no mature themes, just a violent guy who speaks edgily and wants to shoot.
This is probably the best and most measured response to dunkey's videos on Tlou2. When i saw his review on the game, although thought and still think he was being inflamatory and generally just attacking anyone negative towards the game, i at least just accepted that he enjoyed i didn't and moved on, however Dunkey then made a response video on it, which before watching i imagined it was just going to be him cracking a few jokes, and it was overly serious. This wasn't the first time dunkey did this stuff, where he somewhat facetiously hides his points behind a layer of irony so anything can be changed if criticized, it also was not the first time he felt "attacked", i still remember his octopath traveler video where a measly 1000 subscriber channel was taken over by a 5 million subscriber channel. I feel like whenever his opinion is disagreed upon he feels the need to explain not why he likes/dislikes something but rather why others should agree with him.
A story not going the way you expected can actually be a valid criticism.
Brandon Sanderson has talked in the past about "Promises and Payoffs". How you need to make promises about the kind of story you're telling in the beginning, and if you're going for a subversion or a sudden genre-change or something, that needs to be hinted at unless it comes early on.
The problem with TLOU2 is that, as The Closer Look points out, there are certain expectations of a sequel, because it is a continuation of the first story. You can't have the first story about one thing, and then make the sequel just take a shit on that.
The first game, for example, had a theme of 'a light in the darkness'. Ellie was Joel's light.
The second game is just darkness the whole way through. I couldn't see any light - not for Ellie at least.
To some extent I agree. I do think the insane tonal shift from Parts 1 to 2 was quite odd. I can't actually think of a similar example where the tonal shift of a sequel was so vastly different than its predecessor. I am sure that threw a lot of people off when first playing it.
@@MacabreStorytelling
I can. Red Steel 1 and 2 are complete different games. More so than the last of us.
i really like your comment, because that is what i felt when playing the first game, it was about a sliver of hope in the dark dead world, that was left behind, i mean just look at the fireflies motto, which is "look for the light, fireflies" it also had a strong tale of family, which is why when people say Joel was being evil for saving Ellie, i always thought they did not understand the first game at all, parents are supposed to chose their own kids above everything else.
It's funny because that 'ride you more then your motorcycle' line from Gone Days is actually fairly nicely written piece of characterization.
I gotta say Macabre, you are always great in comment threads, even with critics. You will always have my respect for that. Great Video.
👍
Just found your channel Mr. Macabre, and I’m currently binging every video you’ve made. Really insightful and entertaining. Thanks for making videos, hope you keep making them :) you need to be on efap one day.
Something Dunkey failed to mention in his video was that cringey Days Gone scene was a callback to an off-hand joke made when Sarah and Deacon were talking about biker weddings.
As someone who loved almost everything about this game, I have to say...you make fair and legit points. I really enjoyed listening to your perspective of the game.
daddy and daddy are fighting 😭
Dude you need to be on retainer for game companies as a narrative consultant.
I told Bethesda that years ago...
@@MacabreStorytelling macabre gonna bring fallout 1/2 back
I think the ultimate proof that Dunkey’s just petty more than anything else is how he responded to a specific response to his video. A group of reactors named EFAP (also known as Mooler) reacted to his video and basically said very similar things to what you say, wondering if whether or not what he was saying was serious or a joke, calling out how he uses random zero context scenes to say “this is the story” (the FF7R and Days Gone scenes) etc. And Dunkey actually responded to them specifically on a Twitch stream I believe, then he basically acted really immature. Basically what he did is he saw the first bits of the video and as it went on had his girlfriend give him pillows as he pretended to sleep, painting the video as “boring and not worth my time,” and then he turned it off, but he was so immature with this he didn’t do it just once, but twice a few minutes later. He was basically acting like “this video doesn’t bother me and it’s beneath me” but the proof that it clearly bothered him was he planned this out, the moment he started the video he cued his girlfriend, showing they likely talked about this beforehand. The fact he planned this whole “sketch” I guess you can call it, all just to piss off or make fun of some guys that called out the bs in his video and trying to act like he’s better proves Dunkey is quite petty.
It's literally just that meme of the man crying behind the smiling mask.
@@crazyinsane500 pretty much yeah
Whatever you do, never take Dunkey seriously. He is a funny dude and that's it.
@@jasonalv7436 he is not even funny his humor got me sleep and he takes himself to seriously Maxor has both the humor and the Arguments
Ranton is funny and neutral
@@VergilDarkslayer I like Ranton a lot. He gave his opinion on TLOU 2 extremely fairly imo. I mean, he said it himself, he doesn't fuckin care about story and he didn't like TLOU 1 much
As for his point about TLOU2 being creative for having you play as the antagonist halfway through, off the top of my head, I know that in the game SaGa Frontier, there is a route where that is a possibility. There's also the game Breath of Fire IV, where, while you don't switch halfway through, you'd do swap between the protagonist and antagonist throughout the game. There's also something like Sonic Adventure 2, where you can play from the heroes' or villains' perspective, and there's probably more examples if you look it up. And while those last two aren't exactly the same thing, it shows that the idea of swapping between protagonist and antagonist isn't anything new. I don't expect Dunkey to know all these examples, especially since the first two are JRPGs and he hates those, and IIRC he's not much of a Sonic fan, but I mean c'mon, at least look up if other games have done something similar before.
Great video as usual. I really find your videos so well articulated that even though I might disagree here or there, it is still an enjoyable watch. The only thing missing is that you didn't comment on when dunkey labeled Tommy's egregious 180 turn in the epilogue as "written to perfection", I thought you wouldn't let that slide lol.
Yeah since he framed it as more of an opinion and his individual take I didn't think harping on the point more than I already did in my analysis would matter.
Ah yes, the last of us 2 video, the video were dunkey stopped being funny.
Dunkey is very simple to understand : if he says something smart he's serious and when he's doing something stupid like stealing DQXI footage to act like he played the game he was acshually joking :D
Ah, the infamous “Schrodinger’s Media Criticism” strikes again!
HURRR HURRR DONKEY KONG
@@warlordofbritannia had to read about what Schrödinger means, my mind is confused but kinda understood what it is now. My mind is also stressed out now, thanks.
I love how he admits that in general he doesn’t like JRPG storytelling, anime, turn based battles, etc. Then he makes a scathing review of Octopath Traveller dissing those aspects which are selling points to other people, and then got made when people thought he probably isn’t the target audience for it. I know he brings up his love of Persona 5 but whilst P5 is more catered to the modern audience with it’s amazing visual presentation and set pieces, Octopath caters to those who enjoyed classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy on SNES to invoke old emotions.
It’s like if someone who didn’t like platformers but likes Mario Odyssey made a review slamming Crash Bandicoot 4 for the archaic movement options and linear level design.
Dunkey is the kind of guy who just rides the wave, he doesn't think je just looks at the reactions of his vieuwers, if it's bad: guys it's just a joke calm down. If he vieuwers like it: yeah man really good game thought a lot about it.
But then you catch him on stream and it's the most boring un-inspirering thing
"Forced diversity doesn't exist" lol ok
Facts
But does it hurt anyone? Why is it so bad to have most of your characters diverse? Im genuinely curious what is the point to this? Forced diversity what does that entail and if they are going to extra lengths to make the cast diverse what does that do?
@@jordanrayne4779 because the game is objectively better when there's only white males in it, duh (sarcasm).
@@jordanrayne4779 It’s not diversity itself that”s bad, it’s when it is blatantly forced in to use as a marketing point. Remember the time when numerous shows and games (such as High Guardian Spice and GhostBusters 2016) that get articles with headlines like “This game/show/movie has a trans/gay/minority character.” Usually such characters feel more like a mock-up of the actual group than a proper portrayal. I want to focus on the character’s personality, not their sexuality, race, or gender. In fact, Overwatch did a retcon with Soldier 76 and made him gay. Now, this wouldn’t be a problem since they already had a lesbian character (tracer), but it caused controversy *because* it retconned the already implied (and possibly official) straight relationship. Worse is they don’t say he’s bisexual, which would have been lore-friendly for both relationships. They literally retconned an implied straight relationship to further represent the lgbtq community. There’s nothing wrong with representing that community, but do it in a way that does not feel forced and more naturally.
Forcing in stuff for representation harms it more than it helps it. A better example of natural representation would be commander Laurette from halo infinite; good personality, clearly cares for the ones who fight by her side, and is encouraging. It does not bring emphasis on her race or whatever sexuality she has, just her character. That’s what I and many others want to see, diverse characters that focus more on their *character* and personality than their race and sexuality. Not a character that tries its hardest to “represent” a community to the point it gets distracting and offensive.
Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to give a good explanation.
@@Dr.Oofers I appreciate the thought and points you brought up. I certainly agree with you. I don't mind when stories focus on the queer aspects of a characters life, like how being what they are effects them but i can understand when they just use it to get attention or fish for people hungry for representation that its not the best.
I finally realized what irritates the most about tlou2 is how dishonest the conversation about the game is. Those who praise the game absolutely praise it more for its ideas rather then how successfully it executed them. They also say people who dislike the game only do so because they are bigots or cause Joel died. Those who dislike the game are also a bit dishonest too. Because the don't want to be called a phobe they downplay how woke this game is. Forbes had an article about how of course tlou2 won the game awards regardless of quality because it fits the politics of game journalists but even in that article assumed it was more projection on game journalist then the game being woke. Also big channels, like moisrcritikal and nakeyjay,that criticize the game always praise Lev and Dina to ensure they don't get calles bigots. The game is clearly written to earn the favor of leftist in Hollywood and journalism. Thats the main reason there us such a disparity between user reviews and critic scores. Most gamers are accepting of lgbt people but they also aren't woke. I also think no one discusses Lev as a character honestly. I'll probaboy do that in a separate comment.
My issue with lev is that i feel in this universe people would have bigger things to worry about. Then weather or not there happy with what gender they are. Also while ellie being lesbian is fine. I think if she was ok dying to pass on a vaccine. Then she would probably also be okay with repopulating with a man to maybe pass on her immunity.
@@brendanpelkey120 Honestly the whole world of Tlou2 is silly. Its exactly the apocalyptic world a leftist would thing of. Where pregnant women are on the frontlines, gay relationships should be illegal as repopulating the world ought to be a bigger priority. I think Ellie not being able to pass her immunity genetically removes what could have been an interesting storyline. Also Lev is not taken seriously as a character at all. Honestly would a rational person accept that Lev is actually a boy and not abused girl raised in a cult. Objectively speaking Lev is clearly not capable of rational choices. Age is one component. Lev still believes the Scar religion which is insane. Later Lev kills their own mother. There is no reason to assume Lev makes rational choices. Honestly if I didn't know Druckmen's politics I would have assumed Lev was pretending to be a boy to get away from a child marriage or serve on the frontlines, which is basically what Mulan does.
@@redwindstorm honestly being child bride may actually be better than serving on frontlines. I know i wouldn't fight mushroom zombies.
@@brendanpelkey120 If I remember correctly Yara was a fighter so I figured Lev just wanted to join her. Either way, like the rest of the cast, Lev is not a rational human.
@@brendanpelkey120 my biggest issue about ellie "loving" and kissing is that it was explained that scratch and fluids could get you infected, ellie was immune, but a carrier, she could infect others just as any infected.
My gripe with this game is that it seems like it doesn't want to be a video game.
About the story; in my opinion, TLoU2 feels more like a fanfic than an actual sequel.
Fully agreed
TLOU 2 suffers from a case of Plot Induced Stupidity.
More on the review comment, dunkey is known for bashing critics and how they give high scores to games, so for him to use the critic's score seems especially hypocritical , like he is using critics when he agrees with them and when they don't he calls them dumb, and his cherrypicking of dumb reviews was annoying as there were many people who gave 10 out of tens for equally stupid reasons as the ones giving 0
The real problem with this game is that it's a ripoff.
Nakey Jakey even timed the total amount of actual gameplay to 3.5 hrs.
The rest of the game is either a cutscenes, a walking cutscene or some stupid shallow context sensitive button prompt.
A ripoff of what? You just said it was a ripoff never actually saying what this game ripped off.
@@masterretro1585 a money ripoff, it's a 20 hour piece of gaming media with only 4 hours of actual game in it, that's what the OP means.
In general whenever I see someone doing a comment response video, and they choose to respond to a comment with less than 10 thumbs up that's usually a red flag.
Every so often it could be an underrated comedic gem like "Do I hate mars bars next" but most of the time it's just a blatant attempt to misrepresent the opposition.
A lot of people who like it seems to be siting it's themes and ideas as positives.
What they seemed to forget, is that a story cannot work on themes alone. You can build the most imaginative and hard to replicate house ever, with stairs that spiral and are designed to predict how you'd step. But majority of the people would rather buy a boring old wood and brick one, cause at least it works.
Man, his point about the story is just so fucking terrible. He might as well have said "Well I like the story, so that's why you're wrong", it's not far off from what he actually said. I think Dunkey is funny, but man can he be so sensitive when it comes to people criticizing him, or even just disagreeing with him, like in this case. It seems like everytime I see him responding to criticism, he's responding in the worst way possible, and just comes off as dismissive and snarky, while his counter arguments are super weak.
And also, as a big DMC fan, hearing him dismiss the story is not unexpected, as many people who aren't fans tend to, but still gets to me, specifically because he's comparing it to a wonky story of TLOU2. DMC5 had a story that perfectly wrapped up the series' plot while delivering fan service in the most masterful way possible, added even more depth to the main trio by digging deeper into parts of their character and revealing new things about them, and told an actually good story about the cycle of hatred and violence. Again, wouldn't be that annoyed, but the comparison to TLOU2 is what gets to me. And why would he even think about bringing up Jessie, who's death has not only mattered to people since 1997, but was debatabley given even more meaning to people in the Remake? And she isn't even really a main character. That's just the worst comparison he could make.
Some of his opinions as to some of those games having lackluster stories I would agree with, but say Horizon Zero Dawn or DMC5, I have see a lot of people really like these stories. Again, if it doesn't stick with a particular person, that is fine, but to just say it is poor because it didn't leave an impression on YOU, without actually looking at the story as a narrative, then that seems rather silly.
Ok so how didn't TLOU2 wrap up was we where given in Part1, if i may? That being Plot Holes and what not I suspect? I really would like to know what these flaws are?
@@VannywiththeFanny have you watched the video? Or read any of the comments on this video? Or play the game for yourself?
Your comments get more stupid and willfully ignorant the more I read them
Is the part 2 of this video up already and I'm really bad at looking for it or it doesn't exist?
It doesn't exist it seems
The bit about how unique the perspective switch is is weird. Maybe it doesn't appear much in video games but read enough books and you'll be sick of that trope.
Way too many people forget that movies and TV series and books exist when praising videogame storyteling.
That's why channels like Girlfriend Reviews get away with praising what is basically a fine story. Not horrible or mindblowing as people on either aisle of the shit slinging fest scream about, but just fine.
This is such a bizarre criticism. By virtue of it being a video game, the experience of shifting perspective makes from completely different and unique storytelling, that's what Dunkey is arguing. As an example Spiderman: PS4 is a unique experience because there is no other medium that provides the same opportunity to control the famed webcrawler.
What would u have wrote for the Last of Us Part 2? Just interested.
Didn't Halo 2 make you play as the Arbiter for half the game and showed his development from religious zealot to rebellious skeptic as his path collided with the Master Chief?
I think the writing in this game is a really good example of writers gaming themselves with their own work. It’s people thinking they’re doing something creative, but really just flinging paint at the canvas and deciding to call it art. Then of course we have all the gamers, like wannabe art enthusiasts, trying to make sense of all the flung paint so they can feel creative too. Like that girlfriends review part you played is a really good example: “you might have beat the game with the controller in your hand, but lost the game ND was playing with your soul.” What the fuck is that suppose to mean? ND has no sway on anyone’s soul! They’re not playing games with anyone, they’re gaming themselves trying to be overly creative and subversive. That phrase sounds cool and really deep, but it’s actually shallow and meaningless. Like an art enthusiast grasping at something that sounds smart when they’re really thinking, “what the fuck is this?”
it always make me think of people trying to justify, that they wasted 60 dollars on something that is debatable a shitty game.
i have no idea who you are but just because of that title i will watch this
I will respond to this comment for the irony of doing so
The word you're looking for is.. Strawman
Luke Stephens never actually says anything he just kinda wanders through thoughts without actually having an opinion it’s infuriating
I thought the EXACT same thing.
That's why I don't like his analysis videos. I don't think he even makes a script. Just mumbles out random opinions
Holy shit, I like the guy, but this so true. I watched his old Dishonored "critique" a week ago, and it's maddening how much he fails to make a single point. First off, I'm disappointed that there are barely any critiques, just general praise of the mechanics. Secondly, his rambling, oh my god the rambling. I remember at one point in the video he talks about one of the mechanics (I think it was the Chaos system) and he just spends.. like 40 entire seconds just repeating the same sentence describing it over again with different words.
Late to the party but I like deep analytical looks into why shit is the way it is. Your thoughts and arguments are insightful and don’t go out of the way to antagonize those that liked it.
Did you ever make a part 2 of this video? I usually fall more on the fence of generally liking TLOU2 story (due to my personal enjoyment of the game vs any true analysis) but I am really interested to see what else you have to say.
Nah never got around to it. Maybe with the show coming up I might revisit it.
That Days Gone scene wasn't even bad in my opinion, which says a lot
Shadow of the Colossus lets you play as Dormin, the antagonist at the last moment of the game. Kingdom Hearts lets you play as a Heartless once Sora lose his heart. Final Fantasy 7 lets you play as Sephiroth for a short battle at the beginning of the game. In Asura's Wrath, at some point you have to play as Yasha, Asura's best friend and enemy , as you fight the titular protagonist.
There are plenty of clever video games that already put the player in the antagonist's place to make the player think about their actions. What TLOU 2 did is neither new nor bold. These games I mentioned did it way before TLOU 2 and managed to do it in more subtle ways and without relying on an obnoxious subjective lens by having the protagonist do evil to the point of nausea and the antagonist be so kind and good that it becomes insufferable.
Well said!
Don’t forget Halo 2, one of my favourite examples. We get to learn more about the Covenant and their leaders, and get a compelling story about the Arbiter learning about the lies the Prophets speak. It makes Arbiter my favourite character of the series.
I thought Jessie was brilliantly written. She honeypotted cloud and the player at the same time and it went over so many peoples heads
I would say this a good video overall, with one issue I had listening to it was the piano music playing while you're talking. Despite the volume being lower, it still makes it harder to focus on what you're saying. I would suggest just not having music going on at the same time.
The point about him saying you didn't choose that Arthur Morgan dies doesn't make sense because with how his story ends (especially with the final third of the game), both him and the player find out that he is going to die and you can't change that, but from there you can choose the type of person he becomes until his death. Arthur wasn't a good person. He did evil things, he's killed probably hundreds of people and he acknowledges this and throughout the game he questions whether or not there's a reason or point in what he and the gang are doing.
His diagnosis makes him more humble and until his death, the player has the option of atoning for the things he's done throughout the game, such as canceling Strauss's debts and kicking him out of the game or helping out the mother and son whose lives you ruined at the beginning of the game. It doesn't automatically make him a better person but it shows he tried to be and other characters in the game acknowledge this. Even at the end of the game, the player has the option of sacrifing himself by holding off the Pinkertons so John can get away or abandoning John to go back to the cave for the money.
Even his death cutscene changes depending on the player's karma with him either being shot and spat on or passing away somewhat more naturally. The player doesn't choose if he dies but they can choose how he'll be remembered. I can't help but think Dunkey either missed the point of his death, or it was a poorly chosen example.
Edit: Fixed some typos I made. I think this might take away the creator's heart away and that sucks but I needed to fix those.
Regarding Arthur's past, I think that's up for you to decide. You can guess that while he was less prone to killing innocents, he would likely rob them. Regardless, he still wasn't exactly a saint, but he was a human being.
he also made a great point "Revenge is a fools game"
Interesting video. I agreed with Dunky’s video a lot, I really liked TLOU P2’s story, but there were some really good points, and I think you have a really good grasp on the narrative and a great argument. Good to see an actual reason behind disliking this game lmao. Keep it up
Even when people try to defend it, this story is fucking crap.
so where's part 2
You really nailed the nuances of the biggest flaws of this game. Awesome seeing it from a smaller channel. Subscribed man, keep these coming, you communicate your thoughts very well.
Just play Lisa if you want to play a father that would suffice everything just to save his daughter from a post apocalypse world
I mean you are correct regarding the part that nothing Joel does or is told about him taking risks - Chronologically, because in the last scene he clearly states he still goes out of his way to get some coffee, still meeting outsiders he trades with when nothing points to Jackson needing anything to be even more self sustained.
Also there’s that part where Joel risks his life getting that certain Casette of the space launch, imagine Joel loosing his life getting a cassette tape..
Did he ever make the response to his critique? I cant find it
We're hitting response level's that shouldn't even be possible
the thing i never understand about the people who try to defend The Last of Us Part II is that they always say that you can't say the story is bad if you haven't played the game, but to me that just sounds dumb because a story and gameplay are two different things because their are games like Kane & Lynch that have a good story, but the gameplay is terrible and we don't need to play the game to know the story and in fact the story is what people are really angry and complaining about not the gameplay
The gameplay in Naughty Dog games never really plays a role in telling their stories. Shit most of the time they actually cheapen the story
Are you afraid if you actually played the game you may end up really liking it? I mean it's a video game for goodness sake. lmfao
What is with people.
6:28 I’m not sure why, but the “Joel traded his truck for a horse line” made me chuckle a little bit. Joel’s gonna run hunters over with his horse now.
7:18 Yeah, that wasn’t communicated well at all. Joel feels like how we’ve always seen him in the flashbacks. For example, Joel, a capable survivor who had been living in Jackson for about two years, was still able to take down a bloated all by himself. I’m wondering if Joel would be more complacent in the four years of peace since he came to Jackson or more cautious because he now has someone to lose. I honestly would’ve bought either direction if I saw more of it.
Switching between Ellie and Abby periodically throughout the game to fix the pacing was even a thought I had while playing the game. I’m glad there are people who thought the same thing.
I think the reason why this game fascinates me so much is because there were so many ways to do what Naughty Dog tried to do that could’ve been better, and they just didn’t.
This whole video read my mind.
I mean he could have been both, joel in the first game was always very protective of the people he cared about so they could have made him kinder to the people in his community while still being cautious around newcomers
@@Mr.Scott86 I couldn’t agree more.