To be honest , I would have saved her too . I know it was very selfish, but the feelings he had towards her , I don’t blame him . Just like he said “ he feels like god have him a second chance “.
I think that’s the point. It’s the wrong choice, and Joel makes a lot of wrong choices-but you understand them. That’s my problem with the whole “they want you to hate Joel” thing
I know this may have nothing to do with what you commented but doesn’t Abby learn why Joel made his decision by the end of the game when she had to take care of lev because that’s how I interpreted the conclusion of Abby’s story and development.
In the “ getting guitar strings” part with Joel; I’ve always taken Ellie’s standoffish nature with Joel throughout the level as more of just her being a full on a angst filled teenager. You can see an example of this not letting Joel give her a boost to climb up early in the level. She’s at that awkward stage where u want to be treated like an adult but your still in between childhood and adulthood.
You're thinking of children with 'first world problems' IRL. She was already past that age, and in the games she should've been a hardened killer in a live or die world. But she was written as being an ungrateful brat who'd actually got less mature than she was in the first. Her character changed unbelievably - she was likeable in TLOU.
I’ve been thinking about it for a long time, I really wish Abby was introduced under the pretence of wanting to join Jackson, befriending Ellie to get to Joel so we get to know her, and after coming to like Ellie she stuggles to want to kill Joel but eventually does which sets off the events off tlou2. I think it would give another layer to Ellie, being hurt but not just by ‘being left or dying’ but rather being literally betrayed in the worst way possible by someone she thought cared about her.
That's what Neil said he originally thought of doing with the story was that Abby would be living in Jackson. Personally, and since it's a safe space here where people know what happens, I think that's how the show will handle it. I think we meet Abby as a member of Jackson in season two and it's revealed during the season two finale who she is and that's when they off Joel. Everyone thinks that it'll happen in the season two premier but I disagree. I think you need to set up the split between Joel and Ellie organically.
No, The point is that we aren’t supposed to know why Abby did what she did and we aren’t supposed to care for her at first. There are no heroes in this world only villains in other character’s stories.
Their reason to come to Jackson was because of Tommy. They knew he was Joels brother and was living there. He is a former firefly if I am not mistaken.
I always thought that Eugene was the one who sold out Tommy and Joel, you know the guy who was being talked about a lot in the beginning with the porn and the weed farm, (Which all died because he decided to put the farm in the middle of nowhere instead of actually just putting it in Jackson, like what are you telling me that Jackson has laws against weed? That would be ridiculous if it was true.) Anyway I always thought that Eugene sold them out because he was also a former firefly with Tommy and after the prologue nobody mentions him again which I thought was hinting at him being the snitch. But I honestly doubt they put that much thought into it.
@@pintolerance785 doubt it. They say in game that Eugene died of a stroke and in one of abby's flashback they day how they find them. Some old fireflies that served with Tommy got picked up by the WLF and they talked about Tommy. They find joel because of tommy.
@@pintolerance785 it may not be against the law but seniors like Tommy and Joel may be against it... not to mention quartile zones do not allow any illegal drugs. You read it all over in the first game
That's literally how I opened all the safes on my first playthrough. It wasn't until like super late in the game that I found a code for one of the safes and I had an actual brain blast moment.
as a teen i think the high school feeling/themes at the beginning is honestly cute, i liked it and liked it was different from the first game as it contrasts how ellie and joel were constantly on the move and in danger, the high school/more relaxed feeling reminds you they have been in this place for years now and are settled.
I HATE how part 2 insists so much that the Fireflys would have successfully made a vaccine and that Joel doomed humanity, Joel needed a scene defending himself. They were reneged on their deal and planned on killing both of them
Part 2 didn’t insist on that, Ellie’s guilt made her think that it would’ve worked. And Abby didn’t even think it was going to work, but once she regained her humanity it made her want to try again for the people she loved. Abby’s friends are all ex fireflies too so they probably knew people who died in the hospital massacre, so their guilt will make them be angry at Joel and convinced that he doomed humanity. But most of that dooming humanity stuff comes from Ellie because she is so ridden with guilt from all the people she knew from the first game
There is nothing in Part 1 that indicates the Fireflies wouldn't have made a vaccine. All textual (in game) evidence and actions support this. What do you mean Joel needed a scene defending himself? From what? The Fireflies who he already planned on killing the moment he said "find someone else"? Joel didn't give a shingle shit about the deal they made for the guns by the time he got to Salt Lake, hell back in Jackson he said to Tommy "take her, you can collect the payment, just give me enough supplies to send me on my way."
@@daddydevito4405 97% failure rate, they also said words like possible and maybe... but lets say you're right how many vaccines ? what if it spills... if an old man who cant jump can single handedly wipe out the fireflies in 15 minutes how would they fare against bandits, fedra or each other?
@@marcushenderson1741 she knew Riley for years, knew how much Tess meant to Joel, knew sam was too young to die, and knew Henry didn’t deserve to see his little brother die in front of him
Wasn’t abby following Joel’s footsteps in the first place? so her ending up in the same place as Joel isn’t that coincidental. Jesse finding Dina and Ellie seems 10x as coincidental to me. Abby’s squad not killing Ellie makes sense if you watch the scene; at first some of squad want to kill them but Owen, a WLF that has been uncertain of the WLF’s views for years, convinces them not to because he is layered character. Owen’s entire character is about showing people that everyone isn’t defined by what group they follow but their individual beliefs.
We also have to remember, they were not that many paths into town. As a ski resort, this is very common. Abby made the mistake of waking up a hibernating horde. They talked about this before as fungi do not do well during colder months. This is likely one of the biggest reasons why colder environments are best for a town like this. Anyhow, I live around many ski resorts. There's usually a main entrance and the backup Insurance in case there's a snow-in. Joel was a soldier. Him being on patrol was not that coincidental. Ellie and Dina splitting up to look at only 2 Town inferences, not coincidental. Odds of it happening maybe 1 in 10. Maybe 1/100, but plausible. Druckman said he knew Joel was going to die in the first game. They even hinted at it, him talking about how many enemies he had and how many people he killed and lives he destroyed. Lastly, the staff rebellion or whatever it is you're talking about, 80-hour weeks are common for designers towards the end. Watch the 'making of a game documentary'. God of war 1 is a good one... God of war 3 too. Japanese CEOs have small tolerance for delays. Different cultures, different honor systems, different labor laws. This is old news, happening since God of war, maybe longer. But I never heard of anything affecting the plot. If anything, the first game had to take out a bunch of scenes from having the staff to work too much. God of war 1 had a similar situation where two entire levels were taken out including an entire flying ability, which was passed the God of war ii.
Man that's makes it even more stupid just let them live so they can go back and tell there group they know they have a group there stupid for letting ellie and Tommy live
It's actually motion capture, where they have an actor wear a suit that tracks their movements and it converts their performance into animation data. That was probably a genuine reaction from the actor. This game would probably still be getting worked on if people animated it with traditional 3D animation, because it's incredibly time consuming. I should know, as I'm a 3D animator haha. Although the story had it's issues, the acting was very good and I think that reflects in little moments like you pointed out in that scene.
@@PopFlipCatchStickRol It's actually Ashley Burch who voiced Aloy in the Horizon series (and like a thousand other characters over the span of her career)
It makes perfect sense why Abby and Owen let Ellie live. Owen, acted as a ring leader of sorts within this group (being close to Abby’s dad who was pretty imported and Abby herself who initiated the mission). With that in mind later in the game it’s mentioned that Mel had never experienced or witnessed anything like Joel’s murder before. due to their intimate relationship and her pregnancy, Owen wanted to keep violence to a minimum after Joel is killed - for Mel’s sake. Many present at Joel’s death wanted to kill Ellie (‘bitch ass scar’ guy to name one) but it was Owen who physically interjected. It was also Abby’s mission; she set out to kill Joel and once that was done, her judgement may have been clouded and she may not have even considered Ellie’s presence all that. Moreover, the others received no direct order from her or Owen to kill Ellie and so wouldn’t have done.
You lost me 8 minutes in when you got why Abby and her group went to Jackson wrong. They went looking for Tommy, not Joel, because Abby talked to someone who had traded at Tommy’s settlement and they gave her that information. It’s established in this world that people trade and interact outside of settlements. Abby traded weapons for information on the Firefly hideout in Santa Barbra and Ellie writes in her journal about running into people near Vegas.
If the fireflies were disbanded for at least four years before Abby’s search and tommy wasn’t a current firefly in the last game. Who and how would they know where to find tommy. And how would they know that Joel is even his brother at that point. There are alot of loose ends that could have been handled better
@@jay2thaudy This UA-camr says he’s qualified critic because he’s been in film school specializing in screenwriting. Plot twist: He wasn’t a standout student. He’s not exactly on the same tier as Roger Ebert. Probably can’t get a job as a screenwriter if he’s making rambling videos this long. 😂
@@DrGameChanger716 Marlene knew both Tommy and Joel, and it’s likely that most of the survivors at the Salt Lake City Outpost knew of the Tommy-Joel connection. You played the game, right?
By the end Ellie's lost everything and is empty now but I think there is still hope for her if there is a part 3. Because “being empty means anything can fit inside you. if you want to be reborn, empty's the best way to be.” ― Makoto Yukimura (Vinland Saga)
I would be highly surprised if Ellie appears in part 3, part 2 felt like the whole game was leading up to Abby and Lev being the protagonists of part 3 so I don't have high hopes in Ellies regard.
Owen telling Abby that Mel is pregnant at that moment at the cliff is not a coincidence because he was trying to persuade Abby away from her thirst for revenge. we later learn that Owen, Abby and Mel's relationship is a little complicated, as Abby and Owen used to be a couple and still have feelings for one another, and Mel, Owen's new pregnant partner, is also a close friend of Abby since we know that they both used to study medical under Abby's dad, so they all know each other for a really long time. and Owen, is shown to actually the voice of reason in all of this, he is the guy that sees through all of this meaningless conflict and just want to end it all and do something actually useful, finding the Fireflies, and try again to find a cure for humanity, which is why he went AWOL and separated from the WLF. the dialogue may be confusing at the beginning section of the game, because it was designed to be, we didnt know who any of these WLF people were but they do know eachother, and they have deep and insightful conversations that make sense to them, and we would only understand on a 2nd playthrough once we have know all of them.
To say that Mel was a close friend of Abby based on the fact that they learned from the same man is a big stretch, considering that in the majority of their interactions, they are hostile to each other.
@@thorthewolf8801 there are other implications, for one it is implied that the crew who went on the quest to find Joel were all close comrades, you can say they are basically parallels to Dina and Jesse, who are close enough to Ellie that they would go on such a dangerous revenge mission with her, and they also care for eachother like Jesse cared for Dina. Mel and Abby was much closer to eachother prior to the trip to Jackson, Abby's way of torturing Joel was so disheartening for Mel to watch that she grew distance with Abby afterwards. Point is, i don't see anything wrong with the dialogue of the WLF crew at the beginning of the game. And at least for me, the game's attempt to show the story from another perspective worked, and i feel for Abby, Mel and Owen by the end of it. The ultimate point is to show in the cruel world of Last of Us, in 1 story of Ellie and Joel, there are countless other stories and tragedy. Joel maybe a hero to some, but easily is a monster to another. Forgiveness and kindness to one another is more important than ever. Abby realized that, and while it took a lot longer, Ellie realized that as well.
It doesn't make sense that Mel would even take the trip to Jackson in the first place considering how far along she appears to be, also how would Abby not notice prior? It's nonsensical that Owen would still be trying to persuade Abby to give up revenge after they already made the voyage from Seattle. He has seen her commitment to revenge go on 4 years.
@@sexysaxmanjohn because to these characters, Joel is the worst person on the surface of the earth. He killed many people at that hospital, most likely they were friends with Abby and the others too. And you can argue about whether the Fireflies could have saved the world or not, but from their perspective, they had the best chance to save humanity from this apocalypse, before Joel took it all away. Therefor all of them were completely justified in wanting to kill Joel for revenge. Owen was the one to realize how much vengeance consumed Abby and made her into a terrible person, just like how it consumed Ellie at the end. And when he saw how big of a city Jackson was, plus the fact that he just found out Mel is pregnant, that's when he finally decided that this is not worth it anymore. The same way there was absolutely no way anyone could have convinced Ellie out of her suicide mission in trying to avenge Joel, or how Tina naturally decides to come with Ellie because she loves Ellie. Humans are complex and our emotions drive us to go beyond rationality. We understand Ellie and Joel cause they are the main characters of the story, but along side them their are numerous others.
21:10 I think that is exactly why Joel’s death is perfect for the world of TLOU. Joel’s death wasn’t heroic or part of some narrative arc. He was killed suddenly, without redemption or ceremony and you’re just expected to deal with it. Tess, Henry, Sam and more importantly Sarah. We’ve been left with the same sudden heartbreaking loss that Joel put Abby through and that Joel felt himself too when Sarah died, except she didn’t deserve it. It might not be what people liked, loss is really hard to deal with and this shows this perfectly. Some people’s anger or hatred for Joel’s death is exactly what the writers wanted you to feel and if you don’t like it that’s okay, but it fits the brutal world that has been built from the start of TLOU. Not caring about Abby and wanting her dead regardless of what Joel AND Ellie put her through means you empathise with Abby exactly. You’re just on the other side. Edit: another thematic aspect I feel missed the depressing, but more importantly hopeless world that the second game portrays. This is what Joel created. Throughout the first game there was hope that Ellie would be the cure but Joel took that away from everyone because he himself had no hope. Now, in turn, the world has no hope either.
You could argue that this is what the Fireflies have created: a false hope. They needed to tell themselves the vaccine would work but there was no guarantee.
I disagree. I think your putting the writers on a pedestal here. They did it in the worst way. They disrespected the audience that played the first game. There brain dead idea consisted of shock factor and making very smart characters do really dumb things that we know they wouldn’t do.
I find a lot of the things you just assume to understand about how people would act in these scenarios to really mess up your experience, like saying “the world is grey! Why don’t they just murder everyone on sight?” When to me it makes a lot of sense that a girl who had her father torn away from her would see herself in Ellie and maybe have a moment of empathy, and Owen is obviously the moral heart of their group and was encouraging them to not hurt Ellie and Tommy. I feel like sometimes people just make decisions, even if they’re not logically consistent, because of social pressure, emotions, sympathy, and not thinking straight in an emotional moment and it feels odd to coldly calculate why those characters would never act a certain way. Why would Joel trust Abby? He’s spent years within the walls of Jackson, growing soft, and then saves a girl around Ellie’s age who in turn helps Joel and Tommy survive. Was it smart of him to trust her? No. But characters don’t always make perfect decisions and it isn’t a writing flaw for them to be human and make “mistakes”.
Why don't all these characters act in completely logical and rational ways in the zombie apocalypse?? People dont act rational in the fucking real world notwithstanding the apocalypse 🤣🤣
I totally agree. With all the coincidences and plot holes it seems like the /humanity/ was missing. Lev goes to his mom because he is a child that loves his mom and the scar community even if they don’t accept him. People make choices because of feeling and not always because of it being the best way to do things.
Sometimes you lose. Im sure abby wouldn’t have traded all her friends lives to take joel’s. What type of people did she think she was dealing with? Abby was entitled when she thought that her actions would have no consequence. She was mistaken. My perception of ellie didn’t change no matter what she did.
To apply to your combat section in the beginning, I think that since you started it at a normal experience, then you should expect leniency. Expecting less supplies and less forgiving enemies on a difficulty right in the middle built for the average gamer doesn't really make too much sense since the harder difficulties are there already. Normal is thereabouts the border of being more into the story rather than the combat. Having a difficulty slider allows the game to be more accessible to a broader audience. Think about difficulty balancing as a water park, you have the easy mode like a kiddie pool, for the chill and less skilled people, you have the lap pool for the tryhards and skilled players, and then you have the waterslide for the thrill seekers.
I couldn’t have said it better my self actually I tried and it came across as frivolous criticism towards him thank you for your intelligent take my friend
I think the fireflies are portrayed as morally grey at best and as straight terrorists at worst in the first game. They do some pretty messed up stuff in game and have a lot of lore surrounding their misdeeds. I say this because I don’t think what Joel did was entirely selfish, as he was reacting as any parent would to their child be kidnapped and potentially killed without their consent or knowledge by a radical group. Regardless of the vaccine, which to Joel is just a word of mouth rumor at this point, I wouldn’t call anyone selfish for stopping that situation from happening to a loved one.
I kinda disagree that everything is a coincidence, not everything has to have an explicit explanation before it happens: 1. Salt lake crew finding Jackson - The salt lake crew are all fireflies, it makes sense there are more fireflies after they disbanded. Tommy was also a firefly and Joel was an active part in this to the point that it drove a wedge between them. Abby has been hunting Joel for four years which was a major part of the Abby/Owen conflict, and has been through countless "leads" for Joel, it's not all that farfetched she might get some good intel at one point. 2. Ellie dropping her map - If the map just fell out of her backpack then that would be a coincidence, but she was actively using it in the interrogation process, lost control and then was pulled out by Tommy and Jesse (who knew she was going there). 3. Abby finding Joel by accident - Her plan was to interrogate someone on patrol, she went towards where the patrols went out and followed horse tracks. The coincidence isn't finding them, it is that Joel and Tommy were out on patrol at that moment. 4. Ellie finding Abby - Eh the lead thing is a bit strange, but Tommy had been actively looking for Abby out of guilt and anger, driving a wedge between him and Maria (this theme repeats over and over again). Then getting strung up by rattlers and getting intel that way was also a bit rushed. Bonus: - Dina didn't know she was pregnant, she started suspecting it on the way to Seattle and didn't want to turn around on a suspicion. - Mel going out on the field isn't the weirdest thing as she (understandably) doesn't trust Owen and Abby going alone. Game isn't about what I would do, it's about what the characters do given situation and motivation. This is the story for me
Ehh none of these explanations make sense. For 1 The sequence of events is as follows Tommy is about to leave the Fireflies and for some reason tells to random people, or his friends, where exactly he is going. These unnamed Fireflies manage to join the Wolves. Even though in the game we see WLF shoot our characters on sight without asking questions. Then these random Fireflies met Abby, and somehow the conversation topic of Tommy comes up and they remembered that Tommy had a brother named Joel. Now remember it can be any Joel or Tommy or maybe the right people she's looking for. The games never clarity how many Fireflies they are, which is also a problem. It is almost impossible how coincidentally this sequence of events is. Of all the Fireflies across the whole country she bumps into the 1 or 2 who knew all this helpful information 2 Ellie uses the map to get around the city. How would she get back to the theatre if she dropped the map. If she remembers the route why bring the map in the 1st place. In fact, why mark out on the map where your home base is? Literally as a child my mom would tell me not to name our address 'home' on the GPS, just in case someone stole her car. 3 The Abby finds Joel thing is silly because if she can bump into them that easily how have the MANY patrols not noticed Abby's crew yet. The characters even make it clear they are aware of that lodge. Why does no one check there? The Diana point doesn't make sense since there is no urgency in Ellie search. There is no reason why they can not go back THEN she looks for Abby. Normally better stories would establish that Ellie somehow knows Abby and friends plans to leave soon. An even better story would of shown the two interact as friends to explain how Ellie finds our Abby plans to leave. Mel is one of few doctors in A FUCKING APOCALYPSE. She shouldn't go onto the field in general. The fact that she's pregnant make this feel like a scene from a cartoon. When did you hear of doctors picking up AKAs during WW2? The game is a good game for plenty of reasons. The story is just not one of those reasons. Which is honestly true for most game.
@@lesedimokgobi hard disagree with a lot of your points tbh 1. Tommy knew Marlene directly AND the location of the hospital, implying he's fairly well connected in the fireflies. Heck, he might have even been stationed with people who were there at some point. Abby also literally worked there as security. You can safely assume as firefly security first get notified of a man and little girl being brought through the perimeter, they're trying to identify the shit out of them to find out what to do with potential intruders. So, security are going to find out all info they can on him... Again, the security detail also Abby and Owen. They'd also 100% alert Marlene, who would be able to describe that she knew Joel professionally AND because of his brother, which the security detail would want to know. Immediately after the shooting Abby would be asking around with the surviving security (including Owen) to get as much info on him from each other as possible... Idk, there's the potential for a lot of breadcrumbs there. The fireflies were a nationwide organisation; even as they were falling and losing power, there's definitely room to get information. I also feel that the difficultly in acquiring info on Joel actually gives credence to Abby's emotional character decision to run halfway across the country to kill Joel; if you've got a lead when leads are scarce, you're going to do everything you can to act upon it. 2. She marked the theatre location day 1... By day 3, she's not only probs learnt to navigate the city far better than she did when she first marked it, learnt landmarks etc., She's also got Tommy and Jesse there who also at this point probably have some decent navigational skills (and maybe maps too). Sure you can say it's silly for her to have marked the home base, but again, the game's text has established Ellie isn't exactly being perfectly smart about this. 3. They make clear in the dialogue about distributing patrol shifts that patrols rotate and they clear out different areas at different times. They don't literally patrol everywhere near Jackson, all the time to have complete territory control; moreso to try to catch glimpses of survivors and control local infected numbers. They can't inspect literally everywhere, everyday... Say it's a week between patrol's that go up to this area. Abby and Owen's group don't stay there for ages before Abby breaks off; clearly it's Abby's first time seeing the town at the end of a walk that takes her and Owen a max of 10 minutes?? They clearly haven't been there long... So it's just been a few days, or a week, etc. since Jackson patrols have gone through there. It is a coincidence that Joel and Tommy happened to be on shift nearby enough to hear the commotion of the infected chasing Abby... but that's enough of a coincidence for me to excuse (no more egregious of coincidence than meeting various characters throughout the series). 4. Dude the entire point of Ellie's character and narrative at this point is that she is being thoroughly irrational and obsessive over this revenge plot to the detriment of herself and her loved ones. Like, she's barely even turned off from her mission by the pregnancy until she kills pregnant Mel who reminds her of Dina. She's putting her friends at risk for an irrational hunger for revenge. That's the point. 5. It's implied that doctors are still studying; Mel was a student under Abby's dad. So, there still are doctors studying and coming up in the apocalyptic world. Also, WW2 field medics and doctors were like, regularly forced into duty and fighting... As do many medical-aligned military personnel, even contemporaneously. I totally agree that it's ridiculous she'd be put on patrol duty by the WLF, that seems like silly writing. I'm adamant that the Last of Us 2 isn't as watertight or cohesive a story as the first game... But it's also nowhere near as bad as a lot of people make it out to be, AND also that the first game is less logically watertight than people seem to give it credit for.
@@jarrahkron9 2. It doesn't really matter whether or not Ellie can remember the theater's location. The reality is, she would know the map is gone because using that would be the first thing she'd try doing before relying on memory. This means that either: A. Tommy, Jesse, and Ellie go back to fetch the map and intercept Abby and Lev, killing them both or at least the former since Abby is outgunned AND outnumbered. B. They get the map before Abby arrives, meaning Abby has no way of finding them, meaning Jesse doesn't die and Tommy doesn't get crippled which changes the 3rd act completely. C. The Jackson group remain on guard and easily capture Abby since they know their location is compromised. D. They leave early, resulting in the same outcome as option B.
I’ve always liked this game. Played it about 6 times now and yea the story is a lil bit stretch out and got some major plot holes but it was an enticing story. Hella fun gameplay, stunning scenery and locations. Never got old playing this game
While the intro is entirely too convenient, Joel mentions he "traded more than he'd care to admit" for coffee, the hippie dude was probably trading weed across the country, and hypothetically Abby was looking for Tommy based on the fact that he was an ex firefly, the game skipped the believable part by having Abby conveniently find both Joel and Tommy with their guards down I agree. But I think there's a deeper story with all these settlement trade networks that could make Abby finding Tommy/the Jackson settlement believable
I think the Fireflies learning about Tommy's location several years after the fact is fine on its own. It's still a bit of a coincidence, but after all that time, it's not so unlikely as to break suspension of disbelief. It's the fact that Abby is able to start and complete her mission within like two hours that completely shatters it, especially with Ellie's campaign immediately following it as a direct comparison.
@@MisterSquid1 I'm not talking about the part of her journey in which she found Tommy's most likely location and arrived at it. In fact, I explicitly said so... I'm talking about how she doesn't even arrive in Jackson to start determining where Tommy might even be before both Tommy and Joel are granted to her on a silver platter. Not only does Joel show up at the last second to save her life, they even end up in a position that forces them to retreat to Abby's group for safety. And once they get there, they disarm themselves and show zero concern over this armed, well-fed group with a Humvee in the garage happening to be camped out overlooking Jackson and giving them nonspecific answers about what they're doing there. It's a ridiculously contrived way to just let Abby get her revenge with no trouble whatsoever. Within hours of arriving at Jackson, she's skipped a ton of steps in her plan and just gotten away without having to kill or lose a single person. And then we go through Ellie's campaign - which specifically does the opposite, actively drawing attention to how unbelievably convenient things were for Abby.
The fireflys were stupid not to just ask Ellie if she’d give her life willingly, she would have said yes and Joel wouldn’t have killed them all. Heck maybe try looking more than one day for a brain stem analysis requirement too, give it 8 months, maybe there’s another solution, the desperation of not finding another way would just convince Ellie more.
I stand by the main issue taken with TLoU2 is how the game pushes the player to have a sympathetic view towards Abby. This isn't saying her motivations don't make any sense or that even the overall message about how revenge only leads to more pain and you need to move on and not let the past define you ect ect. But game 1 goes out of its way to give the player evidence to support Joel's decision. Not even from an emotional POV either, tho we all can see that. The game goes out of its way to make you NOT trust the FFs. From their sheer terrorist actions lol to the end when they ambush, knock out and kidnap both Ellie and Joel only to find out who they actually are and STILL hold Ellie against her will and try to force Joel to leave her for dead cus THEY DECIDED THEY WERE GONNA KILL AN INNOCENT 11 YEAR OLD WITHOUT EVEN SPEAKING TO HER. And that's just the moral side, the game ALSO goes out of its way to make the FFs seem incompetent. A. They have the ONLY IMMUNE PERSON and within HOURS resort to life ending surgery HOPING that this cure might work. No other tests, nothing. Idiotic. And B. Again the game goes out of its way to give you the info that, oh that surgeon who's gonna save the world? Well guess what? He actually was never a surgeon. He had a bachelor's degree in biology before the break out. Not a medical doctor and CERTAINLY NOT a practicing surgeon. And we the player are supposed to see all this and be like "yup, these are the people who are super trustworthy and are gonna save the world!" Lmao
This. The Fireflies picked a completely needless fight which they lost, and Abby's dad is dead specifically because of his own poor choices. The hell of it is that there is nobody in Abby's life who can tell her this, and little chance that she'd hear it if they did. It's fully understandable why she feels the way she does, even if that's not an excuse for bushwhacking Joel and Tommy. TLOU2 arguably does moral ambiguity and difficult choices better than its predecessor.
@@HighPhoenix1754 I cant find in game where it says this and I'm going by the Wiki which states Jerry graduated with a degree in Bio in 2007. Six years before the outbreak. If we assume Jerry went straight to med school without taking a gap year or getting a Masters degree or such then he would have been able to complete all four years of medical school and been two years into a neurosurgery residency, which wont necessarily teach you everything you need to know, hell you aren't even really doing surgery at the point and are mainly in the OR watching and being allowed to do very minor easy things, but it's still more experience than a non surgical residency. Even past that we can reasonably assume he kept practicing and possibly learning to some greater or lesser capacity (we know research on cordyceps was being done because they have the scanners that can tell if you're infected or not in Boston) post outbreak but that is speculation. The only real thing that works against him is he has a baby face that makes him look like 30 and not closer to 48 (assuming at least 21 in 2007)
If you've played part one, start on survivor and stop using the listen mode. In part one, listen mode was disabled at higher difficulties. Honestly once you stop using it, you realize it's really just training wheels.
i love how differently people see the same, because to me, i love abby so deeply and empathize with both abby and ellie towards the end still, i was very relieved seeing ellie let abby go because them fighting made me so sad knowing i loved them both, and to me ellie letting abby go was a stop to the cycle of violence, realising that killing abby doesnt change anything, doesnt bring joel back, shes already left dina and its reflecting how she has destroyed herself for something that shes now realising wont fix her
Don't forget, the Fireflies were also taking away Ellie's choice. We know Ellie never knew making a cure would mean she'd have to die. Hence the twist revelation near the end of Part 1. But the Fireflies never once said anything to Ellie about it, or woke her up to tell her what trying to make a cure at all would mean for her. They just decided for Ellie to kill her. They took away a girl's choice. Not Joel. Because by living, Ellie at least gets to make choices for herself, which she does. And as we see, the Fireflies willingly killed innocent people and continued to justify it by saying it was for the greater good. Kinda like the military when they killed Joel's daughter, Sara. And they sure were willing to take away their choices to live and did successfully by killing Sara. So, food for thought. Edit: Also, I want to add that Abby telling her dad that she would choose to die for a chance at the cure, shows two problems: Abby, in that hypothetical, got to make the choice and not have her choice taken away. But also, Ellie, a queer character, having her choice taken away, while Abby, a straight woman, would have gotten to make her choice...Let that sink in.
I think you're reading way to deep into the queer aspect, but I totally agree with the rest of your comment. The plot of the second game is full of contrivances and mixed messages.
Honestly I feel like you're reading between the lines way too much. Some plot points are simple and the queer aspect you brought up, in the opinion of a queer woman, is laughable.
They addressed this when ellie says even of she would of died she would of did it. Also the director literally said that ellie hates joel for taking her choice away. Ellie understood the risk even if its wasnt told to her because if you stop a think about it, its implied. They needed to examine her brain and she agreed. This doesnt excuse the fireflies because they did the same. But ellie chose them. So no Joel did not help ellie. He helped himself nd im glad they didnt write him where he acted like he did. The crazy thing is if he didnt lie it might of been different. But the action plus the lie led to so much bs that it objectively was the wrong thing to do
@@ChrisGoldie woudla been nice if they just up and said that rather than causing bullshit and answering AFTER people asked. It's almost like they only said that cause they knew they didn't want people thinking for themselves and to only think how they think. 🤔
Even though I didn't like the story itself, I would still rank it Amazing... I've played a lot of video games and The Last of US Part 1 was the frist game to make me cry. Most games don't give me a strong emotion even though they had an interesting story. I've said, "oh that is sad." and carry on the game like normal. TLOU 1 had me taking breaks because I couldn't see the TV screen through the tears. The Last of Us Part 2, while it didn't make me cry, it made me had stronge emotions to where I had to pause the game. Either I was too upset after someone dying or I was too traumatize after beating/kiling someone. So I would have to take mental breaks. I still think that shows an amazing writing skill. I hope they come out with more video games based off this world. Doesn't have to be about Ellie or Joel. I just loved the gaming mechanics of this game.
I think it's accurate to say it shows "an" amazing writing skill. If you can stay on board for all the major emotional moments, you're in for one hell of a ride. However, it's clear that this writing team has some major weaknesses. Multiple characters fail to maintain their characterization at certain times, and the plot as a whole seems to rely much more on coincidences rather than character-driven outcomes. Either point would be bad enough on its own, but combine both and a major portion of your audience is going to feel like you're railroading them across your rough draft, causing a lot of them to fall off the ride and miss most of the impact of those big emotional moments. And then to make matters even worse, the character-driven narrative of the first game is what made that game such a masterpiece - by erring on the side of drama rather than characterization, by losing one of the core elements that caused the first game to garner such praise, your new entry will fail to appeal to at least some of the folks who were fans of the first.
As a parent, I have to say i probably would've done what Joel did. It was a mistake to not ask Ellie what she wanted to do and lying to her was wrong. Objectively speaking, saving the world is the right thing to do. But this show is about love and how subjective you are when you make decisions like that. What you're capable of doing for those you love. Most parents would do ANYTHING for their kids. I know I would! Joel most certainly did! And he was NOT going to lose a second chance at being a father.
One thing is, Abby at the beginning, was looking for Tommy. In an aquarium flashback she tells Owen that she has a lead to Tommy. It just baffles me looking back that when Tommy introduced himself nobody bats an eye but jaws hit the floor when Joel introduced himself. Tommy is actually the one they were looking for to start with.
At one point Ellie and Dina talk about Joel and his love of coffee. Dina asks where he got it and Ellie says he traded it for something with some people passing by. That implies there are peaceful groups passing by Jackson, making trades. Joel could have introduced himself to them and as these people moved on, they could have mentioned it without any intention really. The word could spread, there are people cooperating all around the continent, talking via radio etc. Information is also traded in this world. That's how later Tommy found Abby was seen at Santa Barbara. It is definitely possible that the information of Joel's location could get to Abby, especially as she's been actively searching for it for years, enough time to get to her. It seems quite realistic to me.
I think Abby tells Owen in Seattle that she met some former fireflies who told her that Thommy (also a former firefly) is in Jackson and they follow that hint to maybe find out where Joel is through Thommy. Then they were lucky by finding him in Jackson. I think that is pretty plausible
The more i played this the more i loved abby and lev. My first playthrough i hated her but with a better understanding of her makes me feel for her and her situation
@@stavonscott2119 I’m just gonna assume your a mentally disabled baboon who thinks Abby is a good character. Are you fucking insane? What makes her a good character? Your just like Abby apparently, spewing the most basic NPC lines imaginable.
4) Gaming technicalities: I think the difficulty in this game, and even moreso the customization of difficulty and accessibility options in this game are groundbreaking, exceptional, and deserve mountains of praise. I think your personal gameplay experience may have been diluted by playing on normal difficulty, and I feel that playing on survivor or hard difficulty are the way that this game was really meant to be experienced by the majority of gamers who are fans of this survival horror genre. Here's why: I don't know this to be fact, but in my humble opinion, playing on harder difficulties (NOT the "grueling/grounded/suicide/legendary/brutal/challenge" difficulty tiers) forces players to utilize a wider variety of the mechanics via resource scarcity and forces them to make decisions about how to allocate their crafting resources (i.e. health pack vs molotov or silencer vs exploding arrow etc). I believe that devs generally include tools/mechanics into game for them to be utilized, and sure some will be stronger than others, but they're particularly placed in the environment very very thoughtfully such that you'll have enough to survive if you're efficient and selective in how you use them. This resource scarcity component also has a big impact on how players approach combat sequences. In normal mode you can just run and gun, as you described, but on survivor you will die unless you are strategic about your positioning, ammo management, and use of stealth in most of the combat sequences. (again, stealth is very well developed and executed in this game, and I think it's meant to be utilized.) As an aside, the above doesn't really apply to the casual gamer/fan that just wants to enjoy a story with some fun action sequences mixed in (which is also a perfectly fine way to experience a game if preferred)
I was looking for a comment like this. I personally think playing a game on normal to review anything other than the story is a horrible idea. Playing a grounded playthrough right now and it makes everything super immersive. Have to really think about your attack plan or more likely stealth through and kill no one. This game is an absolute masterpiece
I didn't find Abby and her crew - who tagged along with her on this unapproved mission - leaving Ellie and Tommy alive weird at all. If they all were to be killed, it could have started a potential war with Jackson. That's something that the WLF could not afford to deal with considering their current conflict with the Seraphites.
Their mission was approved by Isaac. How they could've avoided war with Jackson is by killing Joel and leaving no witnesses behind; then gtfo with their truck the moment the snowstorm starts to subside. Instead they left 2 witnesses who just saw them bash a guy's head in, 1 witness begging them to stop then vowing revenge, and another an experienced, ex-Firefly. Nevermind that they were all wearing WLF gear that can be identified and traced. Besides, a war with Jackson is the least of their concern. Remember the WLF dogma is to shoot on sight. WLF are not worried about making enemies. Leaving Ellie and Tommy alive is either pure stupidity or hubris on their part for which they paid heavily in the end.
If the writers were truly confident in their work they would of given people the choice on what to do with Abby, them forcing mercy shows they didn't have faith in their own story
You realise they did the same thing for Joel in Part 1. They didn’t give us a choice to save Ellie, they just made us do it. Were the writers not confident that people wouldn’t save Ellie? NO. It’s because it’s a LINEAR story you doofus
I love this comment. So many game “reviewers” and video essayists have become so lazy, they’ll suspend disbelief for a game that they love and think is great then nitpick the ones they don’t, even though both may be unrealistic to a similar degree. Ofc there comes a point where it’s asking you to suspend too much, but TLOU is on the lighter side of that.
I really dont get how the fireflies finding Joel after 4 years is "unrealistic". After all, Joel found Tommy after an even longer period of time. Another thing worth noting is that the fireflies weren't even expecting to find Joel, they were looking for Tommy, which is why they're all surprised when Joel introduces himself.
Ellie went out to confront her trauma, not for vengeance. In all of the major events in her life, she was robbed of choice. Just this once, she wanted to find the person who took away the most important person in her life and decide if she wanted to kill her or let her go. Ultimately, it didn't matter which one she choose - what gave her closure was the ability to choose at all.
despite the fact that tommy originally had ties to the fireflies and that joels notoriety from the firefly massacre being more than reason enough for abby to eventually pursue AND find joel, im curious if YOU were to write it to be better how you wouldve handled it?
Good question. Personally, off the top of my head, I can't think of something better for having Abby's group figure out Tommy's location, not without drastically changing the plot. For example, having someone who arrived in Jackson relatively recently turn out to be an ex-Firefly spy? Lots of people have suggested the idea of Abby infiltrating the town, befriending Ellie as part of her cover, and all that. And that wouldn't be a small change. But in all honesty, I don't think that would have been necessary. That coincidence would have been fine if it was the only time the game relied on coincidences like that. As the video said, the main problem is the fact that the coincidences and other examples of lazy writing pile up fast. One or two crucial coincidences over the whole game wouldn't be a big deal, but there are more than that in the opening act alone.
@@Nyzer_ i dont think these "coincidences" are that astounding and even if they are convenient i dont think they are more convenient than coincidences that happen in other games that we give a pass. even in the last of us 1 ellie running into david or something right? the story is on a mission to set up events that pay off to a story and while i think there are ways that make it blatantly transparent its the case, i dont think TLOU2 made some egregious writing faux pas with its "coincidences" you know?
@@ZEEYANG It's definitely a step down from the first game, which is what makes it disappointing. Things in Part I tended to be more character-driven, and the character-driven narrative was the defining trait that made it so beloved. Part II moves closer towards "standard video game story" quality levels, which is not at all a compliment. A recent video came out discussing Part II that actually talks a fair bit about the coincidences as they happen, and I'd say to check it out if you're interested. Overall, the author liked the game, but those sorts of flaws really dragged it down for him. He also went on for a bit about how if you hate that the game is "woke" you need to grow up and go out into the real world for a bit, which had me chuckling - it's not even close to just a blind hate video. But if you genuinely want to hear a breakdown of this game's overreliance on convenient coincidences, it's worth playing in the background while you do housework or something. ua-cam.com/video/5BfaUOdgndM/v-deo.html
@@ZEEYANG Haha, sorry. I thought this was on a different video. But yeah, this game's overuse of coincidences is definitely worse than the previous game's. It's so much worse that if you actually don't see it, I would legitimately question if you've even played the previous game. As I'm sure I've said, one of the core traits of TLOU's success was that it was so far above the usual industry standards, being one of the flagship titles proving that games can be written on par with big movies or TV shows. Saying that Part II doesn't deviate much from the industry standards just isn't as good of a defense as you might think.
Where part 1 is a 10 out of 10 masterpiece, Part 2 is a 8 out 10 great game that drops the ball mostly for me, due to its structure. The story had a lot of potential to elevate itself beyond the first game, with its theme of perspective and how that informs our understanding of character, and morality, depending on what side of the narrative the story is being told through i.e Abby vs Ellie. There's nothing fundamentally I would change in terms of the plot points but, if Naughty Dog wanted to be really bold, I think they should've structured the story so that you play from Abby immediately and built her character up more to make us empathize with her first, before witnessing her bash Joel's head in with a baseball bat. Also, I think they use lazy ways narratively to make us empathize with Abby. Example, look guys, Ellie kills dogs during her campaign, but you know what, Abby pets them. Or look guys, Abby is on a mission to save a small child just like Joel did in the first game. And it reframes the narrative of the first game by demonizing Joel and Ellie, to justify the narrative of the second game, which could've worked if there were more nuance and subtlety to with how they handled these two campaigns, without the obvious bias towards Abbys, a character that fans hadn't built a relationship with over the course of the first game. Also, Abbys campaign had the better set pieces: the Rat King boss battle, the burning village she and Lev have to escape at the end of the game. However, I think Ellie had the more compelling narrative considering her motivations. All in all, while I don't hate TLOU2, it sinks under the weight of its narrative ambitions due its structure, poor pacing between its two campaigns, obvious bais towards Abbys plight, despite touting a narrative that was supposed to show how morally gray both women's actions were, and the lazy ways it tries to get us to empathize with Abby. Great game, sure. Masterpiece? Well, that's debatable.
Couldn't agree more. The BIGGEST problem with the game is the story structure. They should've started the game off or near the start with the player playing as Abby, so then people would actually have some connection with this character. Instead somebody was mixing coke and Benadryl and decided "Hey what if we have this random nobody kill the protagonist of the first game, kill Jessy one of the nicest characters in the game, AND THEN seemingly kill Tommy and hey now you have to play as this nobody and kill Ellie a character you love." AND THEN EVERYONE IN THE ROOM SAID "YEAH THAT SOUNDS LIKE A PERFECT IDEA!" WTF! Also I really don't like Abby's dad he's just this perfect great guy who saves zebras and evil bad guy Joel killed him for No rEasON... No Joel killed him because he was going to kill a little girl and scoop out her brain without getting her permission which like Dude you really couldn't just idk WAIT! Literally A Day! And he wouldn't be dead if he just moved out the way. For me though one of the reasons why I think TLOU2 was so controversial is because RDR2 came out and gave us one of the greatest video game sequels of all time and the original RDR came out around the same time as TLOU and whenever you compare the two... yeeeeeeah.
@@pintolerance785 If the game started with Abby, either they will reveal she's after Joel early and people would still hate her. Or the game would try to hide it, which i don't believe they could for that long, but if it did, then everyone would feel betrayed that they made us play through her mission to kill Joel. Abby story is supposed to compliment Ellie's, showing how her revenge ruined her life and the lives of all of her friends, and how there are better ways of moving on and finding peace, and what could happen to Ellie if she goes through her revenge. And they put that story right after we see Ellie get more and more obsessed with killing Abby. Its understandable why the game is structured the way it is.
Thank you for being reasonable about the game. Its a great game with a couple of flaws that seriously detracted from the experience. My personal big hangup is the pacing. That half-way cut off point to kick off abbys half was just a horrendous move in terms of structure. It just ruins the build up and pay off of the entire story for me. Its hard to appreciate the good qualities of the gamr without a second play through I felt.
i just finished your TLOU 1 retrospective and i was hoping that the retrospective of part 2 was out and it just happens to be a couple hours after it truly great timing
My main problem with the game well particularly Abby is like you said they tried to make Abby come across as a good person rather than a real person. She saves children, plays with dogs, her dad helps free zebras and she finally opts out of a war (that she also gladly participated in anyways so). And meanwhile they portray Ellie as such a shit person almost evil not only due to vengeance but just in general. Ellie is such a bloodthirsty monster in this game that I genuinely believe that deep down though she won’t admit it she somewhat enjoys killing people I get it Abby is supposed to be on the ascension in her journey while Ellie is on her descent but man did they mess it up hard here. They didn’t need to show Abby being such a good person and try to humanize her faction to get me to understand her side. In the first game in the university a member of David’s group goes “Those were my friends you killed asshole” to Joel. I felt more sympathy to that guy than Abby and their group were cannibal murderers. We didn’t to play as that guy to understand just one comment and we go okay I get it. Honestly if they were really committed to Ellie being on a downward spiral they should’ve her her kill Abby at the end. That way Ellie can see that revenge really isn’t the answer and the impact of her losing everything hits harder. I also think Abby would’ve made more of an impact as a character had she died as many times revenge is only a path to the grave. I mean sure Ellie sees this but only after she kills hundreds of people and for some reason she sees Joel playing a guitar and stops (even though she’s had flashbacks of Joel and her being happy already and still went after Abby). It’s such a mess and I could go way more into it but I think I said enough
I generally agree that Abby's section painted her in too good of a light, but I will offer this small counter-argument: the same happened with Joel in the first game. In Joel and Abby's stories we hear about them being ruthless killers and apathetic survivors from other characters and their own mouths but their respective games only show that evilness under specific emotional situations. Joel was scary enough to spook the shit out of a black market kingpin and Abby was the WLF's top Seraphite killer. Both of them had an ugly past, but the games mainly focused on said self-redemption.
@@J-manli Sure but with Joel it felt real. Like the video said it took months for them to get to that point. With Abby 2 days with a kid was enough for her to abandon and kill people she’s known for years. Many of which she probably went on missions with and likely saved her life. And she betrays them. And the first game didn’t try and make Joel seem like a good person. He’s still a bad guy but the point is that he’s not evil. With how Abby killed Joel after he saved her life, hunted him down for years, betrayed the WLF and ruined the lives of everyone around her I’d say Abby is straight up evil. Which is fine but her “redemption” is so forced and artificial considering a majority of the story takes place over 3 days.
@@AHappyBlackGuy ...Yeah Abby's goodytwoshoes story was absolutely nauseating. It felt contrived, forced and as such unnatural. I was really surprised how clumsy and ill thought out the story was to be honest.
Looking back at 2 years later the story really wasn’t all that bad. It just felt out of order,I feel like if they mixed or moved things around storywise it would have been better received. I believe it failed from the lies and false advertisement of Joel being around we weren’t pissed that Joel died we were pissed on how naughty dog did it
Honestly I think the story would be good if reworked and adjust, take this for instance, show us the world through Abby’s view, her four years hunting Joel and how it affected her, then we would get to the Joel and Ellie stuff in the story where she finds out the truth maybe add some more realistic feelings to that, make Dina a more relatable character that gets along really well with Ellie, also add the idea that maybe instead of having Abby kill Joel, have one of the fireflies kill him, that way when Abby finds Joel it’s too late, as she realized everything she did, all the people she used and hurt was for nothing
I honestly think people would have been more accepting of Abby if we started with her flashback instead, mimicking the way the first game began as well, only she didn't die. Showing us she is the literary foil to Sarah and her dad to Joel without us being upset with her yet. I also think forcing people to play someone who killed their favorite character for "redemption" was a bad move. I didn't care enough about Abby to accept her redemption. They either did Joel's death too early while we played Abby's character because we play the entire rest of the game hating her, or instead of us playing her back and forth with Ellie they should have had us play her character as a surprise later on in the game after we played some parts with Ellie chasing them down because it would have taken me off guard not expecting to play Abby by that point. They tried to pull a feelings switcheroo with Abby in the beginning that didn't work. I didn't feel conflicted I only felt upset at her character and then didn't enjoy playing the game itself because I was playing the character I was upset with.
It was an intentional choice to just play as Abby and then go to murdering Joel in the beginning of the game to get you to hate her, and then later you see her POV and realize she did what Joel would've done if someone killed Ellie. The whole point of the game is that you feel uncomfortable playing as Abby after the mid point and then you slowly begin to empathize with her as she realizes revenge did nothing for her and she's more than just a cog for the WLF. Sure, not everyone is going to like with a game making you feel upset, but acting like it's bad writing or design if the game makes you feel something other than pure joy is just a children's understanding of what media should do.
i see a lot of abby apologigest like it's cool to beat men to death with a blunt object for id say atleast a bout right? that's not cruel and unusual punishment? if she shot him a couple times or beat him in a fuel of rage for 30 seconds i'd get the meat riding but like wtf? did you not play on grounded with joel, did you not go across the country with joel and ellie. i have a sneaking suspicion there's a large group of new players that played the second game before the first. like i really think you can break up ideas on this game into two big categories then it splits from there. those that played original/remaster-part2 then those that did the reverse or maybe even the sub category or part2-part1 cause they didn't want to buy an old game or something. i see people quick to defend abby and say her cruel treatment of joel was ok while saying joel was essentially a bad man that had his death coming to him, do you not feel bad an old man was beat to death in front of his daughter? wouldn't abby technically deserve similar treatment for killing ellie's parent(in a worst manner to be honest, that wasn't gonna be an open casket funeral boys). can someone that played part2 then went back to the first help me understand your perspective so im not in the dark, does the abby stuff work more when you know the writers made that surgeon her father, cause that's what i'm thinking. added context changes that last sense heavily.
At first I watched pewdiepie or whoever released the first play through of the game I was so angry with the ending and how the entire game unfolded and how you had to play as Abby rather than just Ellie. Then after a long two year wait from when it released till this year i fell in love. When I first played it I couldn’t even describe how much I love it. It’s supposed to make you angry. It’s supposed to make you uncomfortable. That’s the point you’re supposed to feel unsettled with how Joel died. That’s the beauty of the game.
That’s just bullshit though, just cheap deaths, this game is a sequel not a standalone is it supposed to be a continuation of the previous game and it just spits in the face of all the previous characters, this isn’t just something that happened. This is a story that they wrote.
@@joaquingill6310 i appreciate you giving me your opinion on how you value the game and I agree with you that there are DEFINITE flaws and mistakes the creators made but who knows what they were think when they made tlouII. The game overall isn’t that bad it’s just long and tedious and has a really scattered storyline
Completely disagree with your cons list. I think, despite this video being 2 hours long, you fail to really grasp or understand the characters and their choices. Guess it's a difference in how gamers interact with the narrative.
I'm surprised you kind of glossed over her PTSD and didn't tie it in to her reasoning for going to find Abby in Santa Barbara. She is STILL haunted by Joel's death, to the point that it's debilitating and she has zero closure. Her reasoning for going to Santa Barbara isn't because she's necessarily in the same vengeful streak as before, it's because she's trying to find some sort of peace with Joel's death. Right before deciding to not kill Abby, Ellie finally remembers Joel in a positive light. She's at peace and decides that she doesn't need to kill Abby. THATS the point of the latter section of the game... To show that Ellie is suffering so badly from PTSD that she needs to confront Abby and find some sort of closure, even at the sacrifice of her relationship with Dina and JJ.
Yeah the end summary makes it glaringly obvious that this guy’s grasp on media literacy is tenuous at best. PTSD, trauma, guilt, and especially Ellie’s survivors guilt in particular all make people do insane illogical things.
@@djnevling8253 PTSD could even lead to Ellie choosing to shoot Dina, JJ, and herself if that's the case. PTSD is not carte-blanche to let the characters do arbitrary things -- you have to set it up properly. Ellie murders people to find Abby. If she's on a journey of trauma, this should only worsen it.
Joel did nothing wrong. Last of Us completely shows the Fireflies to be incompetent. There first introduction in the game is blowing up a security gate like terrorists and then getting whooped. Every further sign shows them to be slaughtered like in the capitol or how stupid they were with infected monkeys at the university. By the time Joel and Ellie make it to the hospital, they are in shambles. When they take Ellie, without consent, to kill her, they also are murdering Joel. Marlene has already taken Joel's supplies and then has him marched out into the wild with nothing, pretty certain death. At this point, Joel has had his surrogate daughter taken and to be killed, his supplies taken and being marched out to die, and he never even got paid for the initial job complete. Joel was totally in the right. Finally, Ellie never expected to die. She talks several times about what they plan on doing afterwards. She also mentions she hopes the test isn't like giving blood as she hates needles. A far cry from a girl ready to die. The first game ended perfect and was a fantastic stand alone experience. The sequel was revisionist, poorly paced, and completely unnecessary. Truthfully, the series should have been an anthology series and been a story telling platform rather than a continuing narrative.
"I almost hate them both now, Naughty Dog fucked up" how people can be so close and still completely miss the point of this game is beyond me. Same with the "she has the perfect life, why would she do this now" wow it's almost like we spent this whole game learning that revenge addiction makes you blind to anything and anyone else.
I don’t think it affects the first game. The first game is a masterpiece. I also never thought Ellie has the “perfect life.” The whole video boils down to me explaining how the game relies to much on coincidences rather than genuine storytelling. There is a time and place for coincidences. Using them 24/7 isn’t a great way to write a narrative.
@@gaia7240 What do you mean? Every change in Ellies character is tied to Joel, specifically two things about him: - His lie, which she found out and that ruptured their relationship - His death, which caused her to have massive trauma, specifically because only recently (like a day before) did they start to repair their relationship. Both of these caused her to think about nothing but revenge and to do anything for it, it's the main theme of the game: hate. Then she finds out Dina is pregnant, which causes her to do Day 2 alone, which shows that when she doesn't have anyone stopping her she just lets her anger take control (like when she brutally murders Nora). Then day 3 she kills Owen and Mel, which causes her to finally snap out of her revenge, until Abby shows up and kills Jesse, shoots Tommy and beats the fuck out of her and Dina. This causes her trauma to come back even stronger, which is why their perfect life in the farm didn't last.
51:48 can we talk about how Jesse materializes out of thin air right there. The odds of him stumbling on Ellie like that are millions to one if not lower, it's just one of the many convenient things that just happen because the dev's brains left the chat.
@@bm7502 man your logic is flawed, the mental gymnastics you have to make to get that answer are huge. Joel and Ellie in the first game were creating their own chances, they didn't survive by pure luck, I think the game makes it pretty clear Joel is a super skilled survivor with a lot of experience. They survived because they stuck together and helped each others when times were tuff. Compare that to the lazy writing of TLOU2 where Jesse just stumbles upon Ellie when in Seattle, Seattle ain't a small city and he just happens to find her when she has her guard down and when she needs him the most, ain't that convenient? And even if their chances to get to the fireflies in the first game were zero as you said, it still doesn't excuse the terrible writing of TLOU2.
@@Greenignitor what I am saying is this is a game, and your logic does not apply here. My logic is flawed? Dude, why the hell are you using logic for a game? You think killing hundreds of armed people, going berserk and Rambo-like is realistic? Fireflies rescuing Joel and Ellie near the hospital at the exact moment is logical? Come on. I know you love the first game, but both part 1 and 2 is not logical in some ways.
This really ain't it. It's like complaining about how likely it was for Sam and Henry to come across Joel and Ellie. Or how likely it was for Tommy to find Abby. Or if you wanna go outside of TLOU, it's like complaining about the chances of Charlie finding the golden ticket, or Peter being bitten by the radioactive spider. That's one of the times where suspension of disbelief is 100% what the viewer has to do. That's just story telling.
So, coincidence is always a thing in stories. It’s literally in every story, if there aren’t coincidences the story can’t happen. But it’s super disingenuous to knock on a story just because of coincidences when you wouldn’t do it to another story just because you don’t like the coincidences that took place for the story to happen. Also, clearly you did not pay attention to the scene of Abby killing Joel from their perspective. Owen was the one that said that they shouldn’t kill Ellie. When everyone else, including Mel wanted to kill her. As we see later with Owen not killing the old man scar he doesn’t like killing people he feel doesn’t deserve it, he’s also not as deep into being a “soldier” as the rest of them. He wasn’t really into it, he did out of necessity and most likely just to be with Abby. Which is why we see him wanting to skip training and convincing Abby to stay longer with him at the aquarium. It’s also why Owen wants to leave and go to Santa Barbara. Owen was more aligned with the actual ideas of the fireflies, of wanting to save the world and actually do good things for the people. Even though most of the fireflies didn’t really care and just liked the freedom and were tired of being treated like shit by Fedra. So the reason they did not kill Ellie is because of Owen. Owen was willing to let himself get killed just to save a girl he didn’t even know. He was with Abby for her, while yes he probably wanted Joel dead too it was very clear the way they did it messed with him. Owen was a voice of reason for Abby but she didn’t always listen due to her emotions and drive for revenge getting in the way. But the same way Owen stopped Ellie from getting killed, Lev stopped Dina from getting killed. Which is why Abby grew attached to Lev, Abby was deep down a good person but she blinded herself on the training and the revenge because of the death of her Father, who before that was always teaching her to be a good person, to help others. But without him Owen was the only one there and clearly their relationship wasn’t the greatest, most likely because Owen wasn’t exactly for the whole revenge thing.
@@marcushenderson1741 gameplay wise it’s amazing, there’s nothing like it. But story wise I get the hating Joel’s death but videos like this and the people who think like this I just don’t think the story is for them, and that’s okay. It just feels disingenuous to pretty much nitpick plot points in a way you wouldn’t on a story you love. You can pick apart any story like this but that’s not fun to do, if you sit there and say “well this is too much of a coincidence” or “this just isn’t believable” every story will eventually fall apart, because Authors write the story in a way and it’s not often not meant to be taken apart like this. It’s taken as it is. And people can say the story wasn’t made for them and it wasn’t, authors write for themselves as much as they write for fans. Neil even says he made the game how it was because of his own thoughts at the time and he was really into the cycle of violence and the consequences. They could’ve easily made another game where Joel and Ellie go on another adventure or something but they didn’t, and that’s why I love it. I was also pissed off when Joel died, which is what the writers want. So as Ellie you wanna kill those people as much as she does. But then Jessie dies, Dina, Ellie, and Tommy are all wounded horribly. And you sit there and think “going after Abby was not worth it”. Because you can say “Abby is a monster she’s hurting these people” but Ellie just did the same thing. You just did the same thing. While Ellie was in that place Abby was before killing Joel, Abby was learning to let it go and finding meaning in another way, in someone else. So after Ellie gives up this beautiful life with Dina and a child for revenge and she finally gets to Abby but sees that she is only protecting that kid at that point it’s similar to Joel and Ellie. She has that realization right before killing Abby that killing her isn’t gonna make the pain stop. And we see with Abby still having nightmares about her dad’s death and killing Joel that it did not solve anything. Only after the act and saving Lev and Yara does she finally move on from it. It’s a story that if you don’t care Abby and if you’re not willing to see it from her point of view as well as Ellie’s then it’s not gonna hit for you. I think they made a fantastic story and game that was always doomed to be controversial and they knew that. And I love it for taking that risk and doing what they wanted to do. Because at the end of day if you want Joel and Ellie the 1st game is always there. And no return having all the different characters to play as including Joel basically gives you the Joel gameplay you want. And not mention in the midst of all this crazy story they somehow made a John wick simulator 😭 sorry for all of this
@@Soma-vd3lp no problem i forgot to say that i agreed with your previous comment , lol that's my bad. I don't agree with a lot of the what the narrator said either. but what you you're saying now makes sense. seeing as you have the better understanding of the game i was hoping we could chat privately on another platform aside from twitter
In the beginning saying that Joel personality wouldn’t let him trust Abby and that’s bad story but doesn’t have an issue with Ellie’s personality changing and that’s good story writing What? Make up you’re mind
I absolutely agree with the entry of the game and the events that happen. I do wish we had gameplay options of playing strictly as Ellie or as Abby. I think the developers point would have been better recognized. And give more information as to why and how things happened.
I really liked this game till the first long Abby part after that the game got boring and felt weird going from the climax to basically to the beginning. It kinda ruined it for me. Still many tears were spilled
everytime i get to see some vid about this game, being an absolute fan of the first one, i was tempestating myself of questions...even cause when i had just played it, i heard a friend of mine liking a lot abby's character, whoile i wasnt. This game from a techincal point of view is gorgeus, but....i couldn't play it again, after the first playtrough. I have in these days accepted more that the narrative is rude and cruel and thats fair, even though cause its what that world is..cruel and rude. It was a major pain, punching Ellie as Abby, and i think im not the only one who felt like that...cause...they tried to make you empaythize with Abby but thats not i wanted. I think they lengthen these game in some section, especially abby's one. I think that giving major abby's info, with lot less of moments with her would have helped making these game better. it could also have been less cruel but still it has transmitted us strong messages about love and vengeance. overall i wopuld give this between "it has potential" and "amaizing", but its far from what i experienced in the first one, told by someone who agreed with the choices of making abby win the fight and letting her alive in the end. Sometimes plenty of people want the fairytale finale, but not having that can help to create a masterpiece...just like the first chapter. I really hope in a pt 3, that could make us live again what we experienced in the first one, and to solve us the pain of these one.
Joel DID NOT DECIDE FOR ELLIE. Infact Joels actions are the ONLY thing that let Ellie truly have a choice for herself. She now has to ability to seek out somone who can make a cure and CHOOSE to sacrifice herself. The FFs had taken that away. Joel saving her factually gave it back. Granted Joel did hide that from her in the beginning which IS wrong. But doesnt take away from the FACT that her being alive is the ONLY way she is able to make a choice for herself
It's mentioned multiple times the only guy who knew how to make the vaccine was Abbys dad... who Joel murdered. He 100% decided for Ellie. Sure, Ellie most likely wasn't told she would die due to the surgery, but Ellie says she would have wanted the surgery despite knowing this.
Abby has been on a hunt for Joel for 4 years, so she has been trying to gather bits and pieces of his whereabouts. and after i think about 3 years and a bit she found a lead in Tommy who was a former Fireflies and separated to set up a new town in Jackson. so she went to Jackson in the hope of finding Tommy and find out what she can about Joel. fortune favors her to not only find Tommy but also Joel himself. coincidences happen all the time in real life, and in story telling, using a bit of coincidences at the beginning of the story to kick the plot going is fine. its only hard to accept if a coincidence get the main character out of a problem they are facing, then it is not good, a deux ex machina. i was perfectly fine with how Abby found Joel. you have to remember, even though we didnt know Abby like how we know and love the characters in LoU1, Abby is still a fully fleshed out human being with very strong motivation to find and kill Joel, to avenge not just the Fireflies and all the people who maybe could have been saved if Joel didnt do what he did, but also to avenge her father, who she loves very much just the same as Ellie loves Joel.
Overly Sarcastic Productions did a whole trope talk about Deus Ex Machinas and stated that we as audiences weirdly accept the fact that bad luck can randomly happen to our protagonists but tend to dislike it when good luck randomly happens to them.
I get why people hate this game but i personally just dont feel that way i was iffy about playing as abby but after like 2 hours i was fine with it the only thing i straight up did not like doing is the ellie boss fight because as much as i like abby im on ellies side 100%
(Some rambles idk) The story should've been that at the beginning Abby was a new rising member of Jackson, getting along with everyone there and helping with her strong buff muscles, and that she and Ellie were getting along pretty well But Joel still has his eye on her, he may be rusty but he's still joel miller, the same guy who wouldn't hesitate to run over a raider Yadda yadda, time moves along, and yeap, Abby's been meeting with some unknown individuals in the forest when no one's looking, Joel gets a glimpse of this, slips away quietly, and tries to warn Ellie, but she's still mad at him And then suddenly, oh no, there seems to be a small camp of people on the outskirts asking for help, Joel why don't you take a look, and bring Abby with you, she can do some heavy lifting Which leads us to golf We need to see abby as this neat new character first and THEN we can flip flop between her and ellie
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but it was definitely pretty good. It has a lot of structural issues, and it's an emotional black hole to play, but as far as sequels go, it did pretty well - and the respect the game actually had for Joel was really surprising after all the discourse I'd heard online.
The last of us two should have been a all Abby game. Show how she survived and what she did. They had to involve her father and get him integrated to the story. Then when he dies in the end have her and Joel’s path come together in part three. My opinion
@@tygrademello6841 So you're forced to do a rotation playing every character? Wow that sounds confusing. In part 1 you just play Joel or Ellie but in part 2 you gotta play both sides as Ellie and Abbie so it gets confusing they force you to play both sides but I guess it gives you a better understanding of each character. It's a very unusual game. Thanks for explaining.
@Jon Freeman yeah, it can be, but I personally really like it. It highlights that Abby and Ellie have the same Goal. Plus, you get fun weapons unique to each gal.
I feel like the main reason i ( and a lot of other people) didnt enjoy the game as much as they should have (cus putting my feelings aside its a great game and i can now appreciate it for what it is) is the fact we didnt get to see ellie actually forgive joel and their relationship get better again either before joel dies or through flashbacks. That way you atleast give ur players an emotional conclusion and some closure about Joel and Ellie before killing him.
I think that's the point though at the end. Ellie was trying to forgive Joel the day before he was killed. The end of the game not only gave context but was also Ellie remembering the good times with Joel instead of the final brutal moments. The game is supposed to leave you empty but with a little glimmer of hope. The first game was the opposite: A fulfilled ending with a dark twist.
I think you need to give people more credit than that lol. I think that manymany people just didn't enjoy playing a game where the storyline seemed mainly preoccupied with conveying its desired didactic as heavyhandedly as possible; the delivery of the messaging was so lacking in either tact or subtlety that it was basically forced down your throat (it definitely felt as such). This desired player response, that single correct interpretation/reaction that the writers wanted the players to formulate/experience, in combination with the writers' pointed efforts to preclude the construction of personal, divergent interpretations, made it very difficult for the player to themselves interact with the story, let alone to connect with its characters (which as a result were largely robbed of any natural, sympathetic, human agency which they might've had otherwise). It seems so many times that things happen or actions are taken solely to serve the moral message or evoke one singular reaction that the writers wanted to get across and the overt manipulations by the plot to chastise the player for thinking in any other way than the moral prescribes made you feel like a child being talked down to, which was no less insulting given that the writing itself made sure to first evoke exactly that response which it would later criticise you for (although I think many with any awareness equally refused to feel that desired reaction just to spite the writers' intentions as evident in to the tactless, heavyhandedness of their plotdevices). This, in turn, made it nigh on impossible for the plot and characters to meaningfully stand on their own; instead of seeing characters acting naturally in their respective worlds you couldn't help but recognise the writers looming over their every orchestrated action, making them seem as mere puppets in service to the single simplistic moral of the story. Some of the character choices are so unsubstantiated that you can't help but cringe. There are instances of stories where the precedence of theme/moral over the characters' individuality can work, although those do almost inevitably come across as manipulative to some extent (pointed plotbeats culminating towards that one truth that underlies all so as to incessantly highlight it) and less natural in equal proportion. One thing that the best of such stories have over TLoU2 is that the manipulation/direction is more subtle and the characters' actions retain a sense of believability (which can make for an incredibly powerful story and message by circumventing the reader's disassociation); sadly TLoU2 really struggled to make their characters act naturally (or like characters at all) in way many instances. One other struggle I think comes with the medium itself, as telling a story with a pointed core didactic in a game is more difficult; you are the one in control of the characters, so when the story forces your character to do somethijg morally abhorent (by taking control away from you) only to later in some meta-manner reprimand you for those actions, it can't help but feel borderline patronising. Then there is also the gameplay, which here exists in stark conflict with the story being told in cutscenes (leudonarrative dissonance, yadayada) insofar as to render many of said story's events as utterly ridiculous and nonsensical. That being said, I also do see the game as a very unique and bold attempt at subversive storytelling. But, sadly, the nature of the plot and the medium makes it an unavoidably divisive experience. Some people will experience absolutely zero negative feelings from those aspects I tried to highlight, whilst others like me can't help but feel somewhat annoyed when confronted with them. For an example of the game making characters act unnaturally, the game also really dumbed down the complicated moral implications of Joel's actions at the end of the first game (the way Joel tells Ellie what he did is designed to spark a negative emotional reaction by painting his saving Ellie as existing solely as Joel's selfish denial of Ellie's own desires and agenct; it's very frustrating that Joel not at all tries to explain the full context of the situation just to spark the story's desired divide between them).
I hate how they don't have Joel tell Ellie the whole truth (or at least have ellie find out later). Like yes joel did stop them from killing her....AFTER they ambushed and knocked them both out, denied Joel the chance to see her, denied Ellie the choice to make her own decision, forced joel out at gun point with threat of death and then sent a literal small army against Joel to stop him. Like this is what poor writing looks like. They have to manufacturer conflict between joel and ellie by leaving out vital info.
I do agree that it made no sense that when Joel and Ellie arrived at Jackson’s in part 1 they were met with guns at gunpoint and in part 2 when they meet Abby running around there outposts armed and their first thought is to invite this armed group of military aged people they don’t know back with them ⁉️
they were at the dam when met with guns and i think bandits were constantly attacking them at that point so they were on alert. Also everybody is armed in this world. Inviting them back proves the "he got comfortable over time" theory on top of the fact he said he hasn't seen a bloater in a while in the flash backs. going on patrols were the only action he can get.
Joel is a good man, or rather, he became a good man thanks to the things he learned throughout his journey with Ellie. the bond between them was so pure, and precious, neither ever said it out loud, but they really truly loved each other so much like they are really father and daughter. which is why i completely understood why Ellie was so crazy and berserk on her quest for vengeance after Joel died, it was wrong, and at the end of the game, she realized that and spared Abby, but it was a journey driven by love and grief. Joel was not a hero, the choice that he made bear tremendous consequences, and his death, as harsh as this sounds, was inevitable. cause in one story of Ellie and Joel, their are COUNTLESS other stories in this apocalyptic world, everyone has a tragedy of their own. Abby is also a great person who was consumed by hatred that in the end, cost her almost everything. but we must all learn to forgive and empathize, move on to find a new purpose, "No Matter What, You Keep Finding Something To Fight For". i think the Last of Us 2 encapsulated everything this story is about and the core of what humanity need to find our own salvation. I think the Last of Us part 2, is a Masterpiece.
There's an annoying presumption baked into LoU2 that Joel saved Ellie due to selfishness- saved someone selfishly??- and ruined humanity's chance at survival. It's one of several reasons why Joel's murder as a narrative event is purely arbitrary- foisted into the plot against the gameworld's own reality- as if by LoU2 the devs had lost their grasp on the story's complexity. As it turns out, the devs were different in LoU2, but whether intentional or no, the devs in LoU1 didn't offer the player much *played* context for why Joel makes his decision, but what you do experience throughout the game is that the Fireflies were never "good guys" or trustworthy. Firefly thugs actually knocked Joel unconscious as he tried to save Ellie from drowning, and then, what? Asked him to believe them that she's even still alive? And asked him to believe they've got a cure lined up and again ask- no, insist- that he just accept all of it. All he knew was that these violent incompetants who's first dropoff contact group was dead when they'd arrived- who very well may have been intending to kill him anyway- were declaredly going to kill Ellie. That was his situation and what he acted upon. And then there's the lack of in-game information about whether the medical operation was ever going to be a success at creating a cure- even a hint at the chances of success. It's assumed that Joel "ruined humanity's only chance for selfish reasons", but there's no proof offered in *either* game that he did, and in LoU1 it seemed the devs wanted to let the player piece that together. And in that world somewhere maybe more competent pockets of humanity existed. After all Jacksonville was clearly doing OK- even thriving- without becoming a pit of corruption (like the group that promoted Abbie). Jacksonville was humanity's great hope. It's just not established that that group of FIreflies were ever humanity's great hope, and in fact demonstrated in multiple ways that they weren't.
In audio files and notes it actually helps the player piece together whether or not the fireflies were trustworthy with a vaccine and if they could reverse engineer one ( spoiler alert ; they were incompetent) devs wouldn’t have put those notes and stuff in the game if they wanted to paint Joel as this selfish human being. Which automatically tells me that the people who made the 2nd game were different devs or they just didn’t grasp the first game completely.
@@Prospect_ I heard/read somewhere that LoU1 was created by Druckman and a partner and that the partner was willing to abandon their creative ties to LoU just to get away from Druckman. You can see in most LoU2 interviews he's got some like-thinking blond w him as his new partner. So LoU2's FU to Joel & Ellie is likely at least somewhat an FU to his former partner and that vision, elevating instead this new Ms. Hamfist as Druckman's new thing... Can't confirm that myself though
I enjoyed this video thoroughly but I have to disagree , this game is a masterpiece in my opinion, I can see why someone who is so very knowledgable in story writing etc would be able to poke holes in it narrative wise, but I feel like there was a bit of over analyzing things and just finding a reason to add them to the negatives list, coincidences happen, sometimes they aren't just lazy writing they just keep the story moving, everything that happens in the story is following a theme, they tie in every occurrence to that theme, it is a video game too so everything doesn't have to make 100 % perfect sense. Again this is my personal opinion but TLOU part 2 characters/universe/story/gameplay/world and how immersive it is and anything else that makes it what it is are amazing and its my favorite game of all time. I get why people have issues with it but nothing ive heard from others being a problem makes any difference to how I feel about this game.
It’s okay to like something with bad writing, truly. But it’s also okay to note that it has bad writing and it’s okay that it doesn’t change how you feel about it.
Cope as fuck lol, if your type had their way Abby being the almighty unpunishable transwomam wouldn't have been cut before launch. And you'd be praising that too, wouldn't you?
Anyone who claims that the coincidences ruin Part II but are willing to ignore the coincidences in Part I just expose that the issue is not actually the coincidences.
I'm glad a lot of people are starting to see the flaws in the story of this game. i remember when this game came out I was so fucking excited, and I'm not going to lie, I was among those who was absolutely furious about Joel's death. It was the first game i was so hyped for that I stopped playing in the middle of. I left it for two weeks before picking it back up and give Druckman and co. a chance. I was just numb the entire game. Nothing they attempted to sell me could overturn the sin of Joel's death, especially since I couldn't give a shit about Abby or her crew. It dropped on fucking Father's day and I'm NOT kidding you, that Future Days is me and my dad's song. So I was livid. I haven't touched it since. I really wanted to like this game. I absolutely did not have to pick it back up again and even hated the first few days of playing it again. It just felt like a story I didn't want or even need. I couldn't tell if the game was trying to be political by ascribing fascist icons to the WLF and overtly religious authoritarianism in with the seraphites? at first I figured it was trying to play at like, "The world is shit rn and two peoples think they're right when in reality they both suck and you should just care about your family" but like... that doesn't make sense cause theres no "found family" that I can care about? And I agree that Ellie's character just feels like a piece of shit, and not the same person we saw in Part 1 EVEN IF she fell out with Joel. I feel like Ellie's story needed to be about realizing WHY Joel made his decision, to realize that she needed to think about other people and just about herself. Abby's story needed to be Ellie's. Make Ellie the person caring about Lev instead of her own "wasted life" and let her find new purpose. Abby needed to be there as a character that shows what Ellie COULD HAVE BECOME. If we had been lead to pity Abby instead of try and relate to her, I think there wouldn't have been such a massive dislike of her character. I dunno, I have a lot of thoughts on this story. I too think it has potential, but this game was ddogshit in terms of narrative. I'm really hoping Craig Maizen knocks some sense into Druckmen for season 2 of the show, or I might have to step out after the season finale.
Ellie was a monster on her quest to find and avenge Joel, because she loves Joel and is furious about his death 1000 times more than us the players, the observers of the story, because she lives in it and Joel was her "father". she was an asshole, a cruel murderer, we are not suppose to agree with her actions, that IS EXACTLY THE POINT! Ellie always knew Joel lied, and she even understand why, she is not an idiot, in fact she is very emotionally intelligent. she played along with Joel for years because she knew how much it means for Joel to have this second chance, a second chance to be with his daughter again. you think Ellie need to learn to care for others? did Joel cared for others? did he think about the thousands, if not millions of lives he potentially ruined by stopping the Fireflies from making a cure? Joel's choice was understandable only because WE are humans, and we have empathy, we understand each other's feelings, and we understand how much Ellie means to him. But it was still an extremely unethical and selfish act. Abby is exactly the person that Ellie could be, IF she finds peace in her soul and forgiveness. Joel killed Abby's father, not just the father figure, her real biological father. her motivation to pursue revenge is arguably EVEN stronger than Ellie's. it just takes a bit of effort to realize that because Abby didnt have a whole 1st game for us to get to know her like Ellie have. and to put it bluntly, Abby's appearance is not as pretty looking and likable as Ellie's. in the end, Ellie killed LITERALLY EVERYONE ABBY CARED ABOUT! but she forgave Ellie anyway and walked a way with Lev, because she founded the light, she understood the importance of forgiveness, and to find something else to fight for, a new purpose. that was exactly what Ellie needed, she was still on the path that Abby already went through in finding revenge for Joel, bit by bit she lost herself, not just physically but also in her soul. AND FINALLY, in the last moment, she remembers the last good memory she ever had with Joel, the night when she finally confronted him for everything that happened, to finally understand eachother, and taking that first step to forgive, to empathize and to mend the bond between broken people. in the end, she let go, she forgave, she moved on, the world continues, and the Last of Mankind live on to fight for another day in search of our own salvation. THAT is what LoU2 was about.
@@billnguyen4148 My description of why I disliked this game is pretty similar to a lot of peoples, and I understand why you felt the need to explain the reasoning behind Ellie's change of character. A lot of people didn't seem to get it, which was initially my point. Her character changed, it didn't feel like her. But i KNOW she would have changed considering the fucking PTSD Joel's death would have given her. I got that. The problem was it doesn't feel intentional enough, imo, because nobody is fucking calling her out on acting different. Whether it be loudly, gently, however. She feels on edge in the beginning, she doesn't seem like herself from the get go BEFORE Joel dies. We learn retroactively its because she's now embroiled in this inner turmoil with her father figure, but the way that this story is written makes me have to jump through all sorts of structural hoops to figure that out. I get that Abby is technically more justified in her murder of Joel, but I'm arguing that the execution did not work in her favor. just like the video is talking about. Do I care about her at the end of the game? I personally don't give a fuck and it looks like they failed to overcome that hurdle with a lot of players. They failed to draw parallels to Joel and Abby, Lev to Ellie in any meaningful capacity. Also, to say that what I proposed is simply a lesson for Ellie to "learn to care about others" is not what i was attempting to put across. Ellie cares for others, we see that in Dina, her kid, her friends, in joel. Its LOST from her when she is plunged into this darkness after losing Joel. It consumes her care for others, as evidence of her leaving people who need her in order to get revenge. She needs a shock to her system in order to retrieve it again. She needs a purpose other than revenge, other than her immunity. Because the other is lifeless and the latter doesn't have any power anymore. I think the forgiveness part is important too, but there are other ways to tell that story without fucking it up so badly. Did she forgive Abby because she suddenly remembered a moment with Joel from years ago? After having at least a few years to meditate on everything that's happened? I take issues with the way it's paced, the way its executed, not the concept. It doesn't seem believable to me, and it complicates things by using Abby. A clean-slate character who murders a beloved character and we have to sympathize with them WHILE telling the story of the person who wants revenge on her? Thats asking a lot. Finding something to live for in the doom and gloom is the whole point of the series, I agree. Finding a way to keep moving on. What reason does Ellie have now? Legitimately? What is her reason? For Joel? The man's dead. For Dina? For all we know, Dina hates her guts. For their kid? That's never expressed. Tommy? Its clear theyre gonna have a rocky relationship now, if even at all. Does she have ANY of her found family left? She can't even use her guitar anymore to remind herself of all the ways she failed the people she loved. What does she have to live for? Abby, on the other hand, has Lev. Which, fine, that's great. Except the problem is I don't find their relationship understandable or believable. Is Abby a mother figure? Is she a Sister? I don't fuckin know man, she's not as established as Joel. She just had like 20 friends I didn't care about who all died. Again. I understand WHAT the story was trying to say, and it can say it! I'd love a story like this IF it was done right. I just don't give a shit about any of the characters in the ending. TLOU 1, you felt turmoil in the end, but at least they were still alive and with each other. It left a question. How will this turmoil between the two be solved? The question I get with Ellie is... "Why the fuck is she still alive?" It's dark, but It left me depressed, not in turmoil. Not excited about a potential Part III. I dunno, at the end of the day its just an opinion i have. I won't be playing this game again and I will have a hard time watching Season 2 on HBO if they don't figure it out.
@@matchhead89 for the record, i did not play either game, simply because i grew up not wealthy and never had a gaming console, or a decent PC until recently. so i only watched playthroughs on UA-cam and i loved both games. i have watched playthrough of Part 1 at least 3 times through out the years, and even rewatched it once more before i watched Part 2 to catch myself up with everything. I understand an experience of a player and a watcher can be very different. to me, i view the story of the LoU as more of a movie narrative, rather than a game. you did not like the execution of the story and the pacing of it, that is fair, i have no argument over that. hell, even as a watcher i found the game tedious sometimes especially during Abby's section, and it is true that even though her story with Lev mirrored Joel and Ellie a lot, it is no where near as good as the 1st game. but maybe it is too high of an expectation to put on them cause that 1st game was nothing short but a masterpiece. perhaps at the end of the day it just came down to the personal experiences of the viewer, cause for me and i think those who loved LoU2 found it easier to empathize with characters, especially when they are so well realized both on a writing stand point, and a technical standpoint of the game (my god, the facial animation work in this game was hauntingly realistic). since Part 1 was so fresh on my mind, Joel's death hit me like a fucking train, i sat at my desk still sobbing for half an hour even as the playthrough continues on. however because i remember vividly the ambiguity of Joel's choice in the last game, i already have an inkling on why did Abby kill him, and in a way his death was inevitable. so i guess that makes me more forgiving and open minded by the time the story force us to learn about Abby. even though again, her story is no where near as good as Joel and Ellie, but it was simply to show how much hardship and tragedies are happening everywhere, to everyone, in the cursed world of the LoU. and thats why empathy and forgiveness matters more than ever. even the little notes of survivors you find along your gameplay, telling tragic stories of those who never made it, they were all heart-breaking stories that we'll never get the whole picture of, only what was left behind, a corpse. as for what other purposes does Ellie has, i suppose that is also left open-ended for future games to explore. but so long as we are alive, so long as we are still "Finding something else to fight for", there is still hope. the ending screen of the game shows Abby's boat arriving on a shore with a big building nearby, implying she and Lev made it to the Fireflies new location. you may have any opinion about The Fireflies as you want, but the common thing seems to be that they are a group of hopeful people still trying to find a way to end it all and cure this disease. Abby's father might be dead, the work the Fireflies have done throughout the years may have been undone all because of one man's rampage trying to save his daughter. but so long as we still holding out hope, searching for that light, just like Ellie with immunity still inside her, setting off into the unknown, but bearing no more baggage of her past, there is still hope for humanity. or at least thats how i interpreted the ending, it was bleak, but still hopeful.
i don't see how there only being one person in the world that can make a cure makes more sense. It doesn't, it's very fucking convienient for the plot especially that person being so close to them, and i always hated it.
The coincidences I think in storytelling is called “Chekhov's Gun” Not to be believable but to benefit the storytelling. The pregnancies are symbolic to family and loss which is what this series is all about. It’s a masterpiece as video games goes. I appreciate the review though.
A Chekhovs gun refers to set up and pay off. Like the name implies, it is set up that there is a gun, and it is later used, which is the pay off. A coincidence is an event happening that is not a result of logical writing, cause and effect, but it just so happens because the writers needed it to happen for their story.
16:59 honestly this is such a good point. the events leading up to joel’s death always baffled me and this is why. joel was never quick to trust anyone he didn’t know. he didn’t trust henry and sam when they first met, and now they trust abby AND follow her into their camp? come on 😭
I almost wanted to put the game down when two 19 year old women who have had prior relationships were talking like middle school girls over a joint while Joel was fighting for his life.
I feel like people are so afraid to say this is a amazing game because they’ll receive backlash for liking it. Is the story perfect? No but what’s wrong what a coincidence? Coincidences happen everyday in real life. It’s not that far fetched that Abby just stumbled upon Joel. The universe works like that sometimes and bad things have a way of finding bad people. I love Joel but after playing the game completely I have a different outlook on what he did and the people he hurt. Ever action has a reaction and what happened to him was a direct result of one of those actions. People are missing the bigger picture. Forget all of the characters in the game and look at what it’s trying to teach. Forgiveness and redemption. Anyone who couldn’t make it past Joel’s death can’t speak on this masterpiece.
Plus Abby was literally looking for Joel?? Like her and her squad were right outside of Jackson bc they were trying to find him? Of course she ran into him lmao
I myself am not understanding where this dude is coming from. I feel this whole video is more nit picky than a critique. This is a game that when summed up is a story about looking at things from both sides and realizing that both sides are not right nor wrong, it’s just people trying to survive in a world that is unforgiving.
@@mattmiltenberger145 It's actually one of my least favorite games of all time. It's like they had a storyboard full of ideas and directions they could take the plot and instead of settling on a few good plot points they just throw everything in there at once. It's a mess. It's not long enough to flush out every story idea but at the same time it's way too long for the type of game it is. The combat and sneaking around killing the exact same enemies over and over just gets really old after a while.
I gotta say, this video and your one covering Part 1 have been on repeat for me when I'm working. Your humour is hilarious and you have a lot of good insights, and the jump in quality from the first one is very evident! Very excited to see what you do from here, and you got my sub! Also, as a gay woman, I just wanted to say thank you for mentioning the bit about Ellie's sexuality. I thought it was so nicely incorporated, and it treats her just like she's a person who happens to be gay, not as a person who's personality is focused around being gay. I don't speak for everyone in the LGBT community, but most people I've talked to all feel equally that when a character is vapid and one note and that note is that they're gay, it just comes across as a corporate decision to have someone for representation and is sometimes just insulting. Here's hoping more devs continue to do their LGBT characters justice.
I will say for myself that Part II is and will always be a grotesque failure in every possible way. There is nothing that can convince me otherwise. It was absolutely wrong and to me will always be wrong.
RDR2 would have been so much better if right after Micah tells young Jack he killed the dog of the gant, you could play as Micah so that way you could understand why Micah is who Micah is. So when he kills Arthur at the end, you dont feel so bad about Arthur being killed by Micah.
Two different stories with different characters. This is like criticizing No Country for Old Men for not being like typical White Hat defests Black Hat western or something.
I think the quick/unexpected nature of Jesse’s death is the point. It’s not only (imo) realistic, but it also reminds you nobody is safe, heightening the stakes, without taken someone SUPER important (again, lol). Didn’t strike me as bad writing in and of itself. Although, I think you could def argue the game would have been better with more Jesse time and less endless Lev rescuing.
TLOU Part II is in my top 5 games of all time, I like it even more than the masterpiece original. That being said this is a great video, while I vehemently disagree with a lot of what you have to say, your points are interesting and well presented. I think when critiquing this game, both sides tend to oversimplify or dumb down the issues or positives, but you really gave this game a fair shot, even if it fell short for you, and that's really respectable.
the criticism about coincidences and pacing are mostly subjective and fair, the others are hard to take seriously and don't hold under scrutiny. the "it's stupid" criticism always falls flat because humans do stupid shit on a daily basis. the idea that characters in fiction are impervious to this human fault is nonsensical. the same is true of the "this didn't make sense for their character" criticism. you don't know what makes sense of Tommy's character within the context of the game because it's the first time we've ever seen the character deal with death, particularly death of his sibling. you just struggle to accept his actions and write it off as nonsensical when it's anything but. the Abby/Lev criticism is, ironically, nonsensical because you assume it was intended as a way of mirroring Joel and Ellie's relationship when there's nowhere in the game that implies that, and it is absolutely possible for two people to grow that close in a matter of days. a plethora of people in the real world can attest to that. this is only made further possible when two people are dealing with trauma. overall a half-decent attempt at a critique video, but i think it falls on the cleverly disguised hate-bait side of the fence ultimately. this is further cemented by the statement "me coming out and saying this game is bad should speak volumes" as if you have some great authority in this area. just curious; who are you? to me, you're a random guy on UA-cam giving his opinion so i'm sorry, but it doesn't speak volumes. lastly, the game is by definition a masterpiece, regardless of how you personally feel about it. it released to critical acclaim, leading to it breaking the record for most GOTY awards, as well as receiving an award for Innovation in Accessibility; it is widely revered within the industry, for its game direction, narrative, and audio design. that doesn't happen to good games, it happens to masterful games. the fact it is such a controversial work of art that is praised by many and held in such high regard is a testament to that mastery.
To me even the coincidences thing is weird. They were on patrol and happened to run into each other (near the ski lodge which seems to be the place Tommy and Joel like to hunker down from the second flashback)... yeah and in all of Pittsburgh Ellie and Joel happened to climb in through the window to meet Henry and Sam. It is subjective so it's fine if it bugs people, but it definitely shouldn't be an indictment on the writing.
@@ImGardenGnome That is beyond subjective. There is no objective ruling on coincidences in storytelling, the only thing that is established is that you must be careful with them (and typically good things shouldn't come from coincidences) Plus, again, it is established in flashback that Joel and Tommy hang out around the area while on patrol. It is entirely reasonable to believe they would be nearby
@@Fall__Forward you have good points. “Writing error” was prolly the wrong words to say. More like frowned upon. You can succeed, sure. But it’s incredibly hard. If you fail, you a chance of dividing a fan base. Just like Part 2 did. Hopefully I didn’t sound like a douche in my previous reply😂. Just wanted to have a friendly discussion. :)
There’s a lot of things you didn’t pick up on which was quite frustrating, but hey to each their own! I think next time you gotta go in with a clear view instead of letting annoyance cloud your view lol
The feelings of revenge consumed Tommy the same way they did Ellie, that's what makes it so defeating. You root for Ellie to pursue her anger, but then seeing what it did to Tommy is such a slap in the face. I hated what happened to Tommy, but that's what makes the story so potent. Not poorly written in my opinion. Definitely right about the pacing being inconsistent, and a lot of coincidences to connect a much larger, messier plot. I still think the character writing and development in Part II makes Part I look mid in comparison, and Part I is through and through a masterpiece. Part I made me sad and hopeful, Part II just broke me, Part III has the potential to be so much. Santa Barbara's chained-up infected could allude to Part III involving Ellie traversing the country with a reborn, infected Joel that she walks around like a dog on a leash. Or maybe Ellie just gets a dog, and names it Joel.
Honestly, I think alot of the controversy in this game didn't even have much to do with the game itself. Alot of it had to do with Visceral responses to genuine criticism of the game. when it first came out i read reviews to see if it was worth it, and the responses to the reviews were mind blowing. Due to the fact Ellie and Lev are LGBTQ, there seemed to be a ZERO tolerance policy on any criticism even if none of it had to do with Lev being trans or Ellies sexual preference. There was alot of criticism of Ellie of course most of it was the same as yours in the video here. But the comments i seen on these reviews attacking people calling them Transphobic/homophobic for even the smallest critique was very off putting to alot of people and im sure did more harm than good and turned alot of people away from playing it.
True. I truly don’t care about the woke argument, I think culture wars is a right-wing construct to get you engaged because they have nothing else to offer you. Yet, I was pulled into culture wars when my opinion of watching this steroids-enhanced woman in this setting was immersion-breaking and gave me Chris Redfield Resident Evil 5 vibes.
@@HarryPujols well, I mean if you want to go see part of the problem, apparently all you have to do is go look in the mirror. The fact you make this a Left/Right wing issue. Neither side has anything to offer while blaming the other side as such. Any rational thinking human person does not care for politics in video games, most of us play them to get away from politics.
I just really wanted to say thank you for this video. I have a complicated relationship with The Last of Us Part 2, it has taught me that hate is truly a toxic thing and that focusing so much on things you hate makes you miss out on really good things (If it wasn't for The Last of Us Part 2, I would have been completely caught up on FFXIV, and would have gotten to experience the 5.3 patch alongside everyone when it first came out, it was so good it genuinely gave me depression that I was so hateful that I missed out on an once in a life time experience.) Then after a year or two after I left it behind, I watched videos saying "Last of Us Part 2 is good actually" because I'm an artist and draw to these kinds of videos. Because I wasn't willing to go back into it unless I can actually gain something from it (I'm VERY careful with consuming media I hate now: I don't want to be the kind of person who endlessly complains about things because I was that person once and I was TRULY miserable when I did that when I could have been focusing on what I love) and because I wasn't really willing to go back into it because I don't want to be consumed by my hatred of it again, I always questioned if it was ME that was the problem cause I kept going "But it's a horrible story that was told very very poorly." whenever people were saying "Well that's the POINT." in response to things like the story suddenly cutting to Abby, that the writers really wanted you to hate her so they can make you love her. Watching this video made me realize: Yeah, maybe those were the point, and maybe that was the writer's intentions: But it doesn't matter. What matters was the execution of getting that point across and it failed. So thank you very much for that, I care a LOT about story telling and how they're told. So it means so much to hear you actually praise the game when it deserves it but also reprimand it and not hold back when it fails since you're a die hard fan. I know it's hard, but congrats on doing it.
This guy doesn't stop himself from plucking on the weak strings of the OBJECTIVE story yea (I definitely got my issues with it) still I believe this guy is just as much plucking at some SUBJECTIVE issues (his unbalanced combat stance, along with his issue of coincidence) and his own personal perspective on how TLOU should feel/be written shows a level of being unable to see through the eyes of the actual games setting but instead through HIS perception of the games setting. (which isn't a problem at all, but it is unaddressed in the video, leading to moments where he speaks as the authority on whether a subject fits TLOU period) I've been replaying the game and after combing thru videos, personal discussions, and director discussions I've come to feel that the story isn't perfect but not bad BUT instead pretty DECENT as well as pretty ROUGH........I recommend playing again if possible cause I have NO complaints on gameplay tho 💀
I started watching reviews of the game's plot and reading comments saying that the game was a masterpiece. But I didn't think so, because there are obvious problems in the plot. But more and more people called the game a "masterpiece", and I began to think that I probably did not understand all the splendor of the game. But then I realize that some people evaluate the game because of the emotions they have experienced and because of the message in the game. But no one pays attention to the fact that the plot itself has problems, despite the message. Then I started looking at the comments and found a lot of people who expressed the shortcomings of the game. And then I realized that everything was fine with me, that I was not the only one who thought that the game was not a "masterpiece". The game is not a masterpiece,but also not the most terrible
been waiting on this video. another well written video and bring an unbiased perspective which is something that a lot of people couldn't do through the first play through. excited to see you blow up
I stand by the main issue taken with TLoU2 is how the game pushes the player to have a sympathetic view towards Abby. This isn't saying her motivations don't make any sense or that even the overall message about how revenge only leads to more pain and you need to move on and not let the past define you ect ect. But game 1 goes out of its way to give the player evidence to support Joel's decision. Not even from an emotional POV either, tho we all can see that. The game goes out of its way to make you NOT trust the FFs. From their sheer terrorist actions lol to the end when they ambush, knock out and kidnap both Ellie and Joel only to find out who they actually are and STILL hold Ellie against her will and try to force Joel to leave her for dead cus THEY DECIDED THEY WERE GONNA KILL AN INNOCENT 11 YEAR OLD WITHOUT EVEN SPEAKING TO HER. And that's just the moral side, the game ALSO goes out of its way to make the FFs seem incompetent. A. They have the ONLY IMMUNE PERSON and within HOURS resort to life ending surgery HOPING that this cure might work. No other tests, nothing. Idiotic. And B. Again the game goes out of its way to give you the info that, oh that surgeon who's gonna save the world? Well guess what? He actually was never a surgeon. He had a bachelor's degree in biology before the break out. Not a medical doctor and CERTAINLY NOT a practicing surgeon. And we the player are supposed to see all this and be like "yup, these are the people who are super trustworthy and are gonna save the world!" Lmao THIS is the main issue. Have Abby kill Joel. Have Ellie go on her revenge rampage. But then have them BOTH learn the WHOLE truth. Have Abby realize she's made a mistake and trusted her Dad, who ended up doing a horrible thing and have Ellie come to the conclusion that she trusted Joel (her 'dad') and he also fucked up and lied to her and now they are bothe fighting battles they didn't even start. Both learn to let the past go, forgive and forget and not let their past or their families define who they are. They both almost loose there humanity, but in the end come back. That is a much more compelling story and shows the player, yeah Abby was wrong for what she did but she learned that too. Actions have consequences. Abby's dad got his, Joel got his. But they don't have to fight the battles their fathers started
To be honest , I would have saved her too . I know it was very selfish, but the feelings he had towards her , I don’t blame him . Just like he said “ he feels like god have him a second chance “.
I agree
Of course i would save her
I think that’s the point. It’s the wrong choice, and Joel makes a lot of wrong choices-but you understand them. That’s my problem with the whole “they want you to hate Joel” thing
I know this may have nothing to do with what you commented but doesn’t Abby learn why Joel made his decision by the end of the game when she had to take care of lev because that’s how I interpreted the conclusion of Abby’s story and development.
if that was my daughter i would kill everyone for her
In the “ getting guitar strings” part with Joel; I’ve always taken Ellie’s standoffish nature with Joel throughout the level as more of just her being a full on a angst filled teenager. You can see an example of this not letting Joel give her a boost to climb up early in the level. She’s at that awkward stage where u want to be treated like an adult but your still in between childhood and adulthood.
You're thinking of children with 'first world problems' IRL. She was already past that age, and in the games she should've been a hardened killer in a live or die world. But she was written as being an ungrateful brat who'd actually got less mature than she was in the first. Her character changed unbelievably - she was likeable in TLOU.
that's Ellies whole character in the first game too
I’ve been thinking about it for a long time, I really wish Abby was introduced under the pretence of wanting to join Jackson, befriending Ellie to get to Joel so we get to know her, and after coming to like Ellie she stuggles to want to kill Joel but eventually does which sets off the events off tlou2. I think it would give another layer to Ellie, being hurt but not just by ‘being left or dying’ but rather being literally betrayed in the worst way possible by someone she thought cared about her.
That's what Neil said he originally thought of doing with the story was that Abby would be living in Jackson. Personally, and since it's a safe space here where people know what happens, I think that's how the show will handle it. I think we meet Abby as a member of Jackson in season two and it's revealed during the season two finale who she is and that's when they off Joel. Everyone thinks that it'll happen in the season two premier but I disagree. I think you need to set up the split between Joel and Ellie organically.
@@JWickyJr13I cant imagine them changing a plot point so integral to the game
@@lotus2001 They've already changed quite a bit and fully added major stuff that weren't in either games.
This is so much better
No, The point is that we aren’t supposed to know why Abby did what she did and we aren’t supposed to care for her at first. There are no heroes in this world only villains in other character’s stories.
Their reason to come to Jackson was because of Tommy. They knew he was Joels brother and was living there. He is a former firefly if I am not mistaken.
Solid point! Never thought of that.
I always thought that Eugene was the one who sold out Tommy and Joel, you know the guy who was being talked about a lot in the beginning with the porn and the weed farm, (Which all died because he decided to put the farm in the middle of nowhere instead of actually just putting it in Jackson, like what are you telling me that Jackson has laws against weed? That would be ridiculous if it was true.) Anyway I always thought that Eugene sold them out because he was also a former firefly with Tommy and after the prologue nobody mentions him again which I thought was hinting at him being the snitch. But I honestly doubt they put that much thought into it.
@@mariannefischer3613 that was explained in the flashback with abby and owen at the aquarium
@@pintolerance785 doubt it. They say in game that Eugene died of a stroke and in one of abby's flashback they day how they find them. Some old fireflies that served with Tommy got picked up by the WLF and they talked about Tommy. They find joel because of tommy.
@@pintolerance785 it may not be against the law but seniors like Tommy and Joel may be against it... not to mention quartile zones do not allow any illegal drugs. You read it all over in the first game
You can unlock the safes by just listening to the sound when you spin the thing. The click sounds different when you hit the right number
That's literally how I opened all the safes on my first playthrough. It wasn't until like super late in the game that I found a code for one of the safes and I had an actual brain blast moment.
Same in part 1 remake
@@pintolerance785🧢🧢🧢
I did not have the patience for that😤
BRO WHATT
as a teen i think the high school feeling/themes at the beginning is honestly cute, i liked it and liked it was different from the first game as it contrasts how ellie and joel were constantly on the move and in danger, the high school/more relaxed feeling reminds you they have been in this place for years now and are settled.
That is a valid point :)
Most characters you meet in the first game are old, but in part 2 they are young.
@@Spoopy_man 😲
That's fair. I guess most of the fans of the original are old now, so it just feels weird to them/me.
I HATE how part 2 insists so much that the Fireflys would have successfully made a vaccine and that Joel doomed humanity, Joel needed a scene defending himself. They were reneged on their deal and planned on killing both of them
Part 2 didn’t insist on that, Ellie’s guilt made her think that it would’ve worked. And Abby didn’t even think it was going to work, but once she regained her humanity it made her want to try again for the people she loved. Abby’s friends are all ex fireflies too so they probably knew people who died in the hospital massacre, so their guilt will make them be angry at Joel and convinced that he doomed humanity. But most of that dooming humanity stuff comes from Ellie because she is so ridden with guilt from all the people she knew from the first game
There is nothing in Part 1 that indicates the Fireflies wouldn't have made a vaccine. All textual (in game) evidence and actions support this. What do you mean Joel needed a scene defending himself? From what? The Fireflies who he already planned on killing the moment he said "find someone else"? Joel didn't give a shingle shit about the deal they made for the guns by the time he got to Salt Lake, hell back in Jackson he said to Tommy "take her, you can collect the payment, just give me enough supplies to send me on my way."
@@NoNo-oe8vp she knew those people for 12 hrs max
@@daddydevito4405 97% failure rate, they also said words like possible and maybe... but lets say you're right
how many vaccines ? what if it spills...
if an old man who cant jump can single handedly wipe out the fireflies in 15 minutes how would they fare against bandits, fedra or each other?
@@marcushenderson1741 she knew Riley for years, knew how much Tess meant to Joel, knew sam was too young to die, and knew Henry didn’t deserve to see his little brother die in front of him
Wasn’t abby following Joel’s footsteps in the first place? so her ending up in the same place as Joel isn’t that coincidental. Jesse finding Dina and Ellie seems 10x as coincidental to me. Abby’s squad not killing Ellie makes sense if you watch the scene; at first some of squad want to kill them but Owen, a WLF that has been uncertain of the WLF’s views for years, convinces them not to because he is layered character. Owen’s entire character is about showing people that everyone isn’t defined by what group they follow but their individual beliefs.
Apparently whoever made this video never heard of the old saying it's a small world after all.
We also have to remember, they were not that many paths into town. As a ski resort, this is very common.
Abby made the mistake of waking up a hibernating horde. They talked about this before as fungi do not do well during colder months. This is likely one of the biggest reasons why colder environments are best for a town like this.
Anyhow, I live around many ski resorts. There's usually a main entrance and the backup Insurance in case there's a snow-in. Joel was a soldier. Him being on patrol was not that coincidental. Ellie and Dina splitting up to look at only 2 Town inferences, not coincidental. Odds of it happening maybe 1 in 10. Maybe 1/100, but plausible.
Druckman said he knew Joel was going to die in the first game. They even hinted at it, him talking about how many enemies he had and how many people he killed and lives he destroyed.
Lastly, the staff rebellion or whatever it is you're talking about, 80-hour weeks are common for designers towards the end. Watch the 'making of a game documentary'. God of war 1 is a good one... God of war 3 too.
Japanese CEOs have small tolerance for delays. Different cultures, different honor systems, different labor laws. This is old news, happening since God of war, maybe longer. But I never heard of anything affecting the plot. If anything, the first game had to take out a bunch of scenes from having the staff to work too much.
God of war 1 had a similar situation where two entire levels were taken out including an entire flying ability, which was passed the God of war ii.
Man that's makes it even more stupid just let them live so they can go back and tell there group they know they have a group there stupid for letting ellie and Tommy live
@@cflo1386 no ...Abby was looking for Tommy. Not joel at all.
@@cflo1386 and you do know that's just a song right?
I am so impressed with how they animated Mel's reaction to Abby bashing in Joel's skull at 1:18:23. The way she squirmed was so lifelike.
It's actually motion capture, where they have an actor wear a suit that tracks their movements and it converts their performance into animation data. That was probably a genuine reaction from the actor. This game would probably still be getting worked on if people animated it with traditional 3D animation, because it's incredibly time consuming. I should know, as I'm a 3D animator haha. Although the story had it's issues, the acting was very good and I think that reflects in little moments like you pointed out in that scene.
It is full body motion capture, not animated. It is expensive but less time consuming than hand animation and looks more real.
@@PopFlipCatchStickRol It's actually Ashley Burch who voiced Aloy in the Horizon series (and like a thousand other characters over the span of her career)
It makes perfect sense why Abby and Owen let Ellie live. Owen, acted as a ring leader of sorts within this group (being close to Abby’s dad who was pretty imported and Abby herself who initiated the mission). With that in mind later in the game it’s mentioned that Mel had never experienced or witnessed anything like Joel’s murder before. due to their intimate relationship and her pregnancy, Owen wanted to keep violence to a minimum after Joel is killed - for Mel’s sake. Many present at Joel’s death wanted to kill Ellie (‘bitch ass scar’ guy to name one) but it was Owen who physically interjected. It was also Abby’s mission; she set out to kill Joel and once that was done, her judgement may have been clouded and she may not have even considered Ellie’s presence all that. Moreover, the others received no direct order from her or Owen to kill Ellie and so wouldn’t have done.
You lost me 8 minutes in when you got why Abby and her group went to Jackson wrong.
They went looking for Tommy, not Joel, because Abby talked to someone who had traded at Tommy’s settlement and they gave her that information.
It’s established in this world that people trade and interact outside of settlements. Abby traded weapons for information on the Firefly hideout in Santa Barbra and Ellie writes in her journal about running into people near Vegas.
I dipped after that. The whole premise he's posing is built on hypocrisy.
If the fireflies were disbanded for at least four years before Abby’s search and tommy wasn’t a current firefly in the last game. Who and how would they know where to find tommy. And how would they know that Joel is even his brother at that point. There are alot of loose ends that could have been handled better
@@jay2thaudy This UA-camr says he’s qualified critic because he’s been in film school specializing in screenwriting.
Plot twist: He wasn’t a standout student. He’s not exactly on the same tier as Roger Ebert. Probably can’t get a job as a screenwriter if he’s making rambling videos this long. 😂
@@DrGameChanger716 Marlene knew both Tommy and Joel, and it’s likely that most of the survivors at the Salt Lake City Outpost knew of the Tommy-Joel connection. You played the game, right?
Y'all would do anything but listen to criticism of the game lmao. "He said one wrong thing!! I'm not listening lalalalalala!!" Childish mindset 😂😂
By the end Ellie's lost everything and is empty now but I think there is still hope for her if there is a part 3. Because “being empty means anything can fit inside you. if you want to be reborn, empty's the best way to be.” ― Makoto Yukimura (Vinland Saga)
I would be highly surprised if Ellie appears in part 3, part 2 felt like the whole game was leading up to Abby and Lev being the protagonists of part 3 so I don't have high hopes in Ellies regard.
Abby also lost everything I hope she returns to
this isn't vinland saga.
@@Slavic_Snakesure, but the philosophy can be applied.
@@pintolerance785 I would probably die of laughter if they made Abby the protagonist of last of us three
Owen telling Abby that Mel is pregnant at that moment at the cliff is not a coincidence because he was trying to persuade Abby away from her thirst for revenge. we later learn that Owen, Abby and Mel's relationship is a little complicated, as Abby and Owen used to be a couple and still have feelings for one another, and Mel, Owen's new pregnant partner, is also a close friend of Abby since we know that they both used to study medical under Abby's dad, so they all know each other for a really long time. and Owen, is shown to actually the voice of reason in all of this, he is the guy that sees through all of this meaningless conflict and just want to end it all and do something actually useful, finding the Fireflies, and try again to find a cure for humanity, which is why he went AWOL and separated from the WLF. the dialogue may be confusing at the beginning section of the game, because it was designed to be, we didnt know who any of these WLF people were but they do know eachother, and they have deep and insightful conversations that make sense to them, and we would only understand on a 2nd playthrough once we have know all of them.
To say that Mel was a close friend of Abby based on the fact that they learned from the same man is a big stretch, considering that in the majority of their interactions, they are hostile to each other.
@@thorthewolf8801 there are other implications, for one it is implied that the crew who went on the quest to find Joel were all close comrades, you can say they are basically parallels to Dina and Jesse, who are close enough to Ellie that they would go on such a dangerous revenge mission with her, and they also care for eachother like Jesse cared for Dina. Mel and Abby was much closer to eachother prior to the trip to Jackson, Abby's way of torturing Joel was so disheartening for Mel to watch that she grew distance with Abby afterwards. Point is, i don't see anything wrong with the dialogue of the WLF crew at the beginning of the game. And at least for me, the game's attempt to show the story from another perspective worked, and i feel for Abby, Mel and Owen by the end of it. The ultimate point is to show in the cruel world of Last of Us, in 1 story of Ellie and Joel, there are countless other stories and tragedy. Joel maybe a hero to some, but easily is a monster to another. Forgiveness and kindness to one another is more important than ever. Abby realized that, and while it took a lot longer, Ellie realized that as well.
yes, thank you, didn't have to scroll that far to find a sane voice..
It doesn't make sense that Mel would even take the trip to Jackson in the first place considering how far along she appears to be, also how would Abby not notice prior? It's nonsensical that Owen would still be trying to persuade Abby to give up revenge after they already made the voyage from Seattle. He has seen her commitment to revenge go on 4 years.
@@sexysaxmanjohn because to these characters, Joel is the worst person on the surface of the earth. He killed many people at that hospital, most likely they were friends with Abby and the others too. And you can argue about whether the Fireflies could have saved the world or not, but from their perspective, they had the best chance to save humanity from this apocalypse, before Joel took it all away. Therefor all of them were completely justified in wanting to kill Joel for revenge. Owen was the one to realize how much vengeance consumed Abby and made her into a terrible person, just like how it consumed Ellie at the end. And when he saw how big of a city Jackson was, plus the fact that he just found out Mel is pregnant, that's when he finally decided that this is not worth it anymore. The same way there was absolutely no way anyone could have convinced Ellie out of her suicide mission in trying to avenge Joel, or how Tina naturally decides to come with Ellie because she loves Ellie. Humans are complex and our emotions drive us to go beyond rationality. We understand Ellie and Joel cause they are the main characters of the story, but along side them their are numerous others.
21:10
I think that is exactly why Joel’s death is perfect for the world of TLOU. Joel’s death wasn’t heroic or part of some narrative arc. He was killed suddenly, without redemption or ceremony and you’re just expected to deal with it.
Tess, Henry, Sam and more importantly Sarah.
We’ve been left with the same sudden heartbreaking loss that Joel put Abby through and that Joel felt himself too when Sarah died, except she didn’t deserve it.
It might not be what people liked, loss is really hard to deal with and this shows this perfectly. Some people’s anger or hatred for Joel’s death is exactly what the writers wanted you to feel and if you don’t like it that’s okay, but it fits the brutal world that has been built from the start of TLOU.
Not caring about Abby and wanting her dead regardless of what Joel AND Ellie put her through means you empathise with Abby exactly. You’re just on the other side.
Edit: another thematic aspect I feel missed the depressing, but more importantly hopeless world that the second game portrays. This is what Joel created. Throughout the first game there was hope that Ellie would be the cure but Joel took that away from everyone because he himself had no hope. Now, in turn, the world has no hope either.
You could argue that this is what the Fireflies have created: a false hope. They needed to tell themselves the vaccine would work but there was no guarantee.
Agreed
Agreed my dude
Somebody gets it
I disagree. I think your putting the writers on a pedestal here. They did it in the worst way. They disrespected the audience that played the first game. There brain dead idea consisted of shock factor and making very smart characters do really dumb things that we know they wouldn’t do.
I find a lot of the things you just assume to understand about how people would act in these scenarios to really mess up your experience, like saying “the world is grey! Why don’t they just murder everyone on sight?” When to me it makes a lot of sense that a girl who had her father torn away from her would see herself in Ellie and maybe have a moment of empathy, and Owen is obviously the moral heart of their group and was encouraging them to not hurt Ellie and Tommy. I feel like sometimes people just make decisions, even if they’re not logically consistent, because of social pressure, emotions, sympathy, and not thinking straight in an emotional moment and it feels odd to coldly calculate why those characters would never act a certain way. Why would Joel trust Abby? He’s spent years within the walls of Jackson, growing soft, and then saves a girl around Ellie’s age who in turn helps Joel and Tommy survive. Was it smart of him to trust her? No. But characters don’t always make perfect decisions and it isn’t a writing flaw for them to be human and make “mistakes”.
I don't even really like TLOU II but i wholeheartedly agree with you on this!
Why don't all these characters act in completely logical and rational ways in the zombie apocalypse?? People dont act rational in the fucking real world notwithstanding the apocalypse 🤣🤣
I totally agree. With all the coincidences and plot holes it seems like the /humanity/ was missing. Lev goes to his mom because he is a child that loves his mom and the scar community even if they don’t accept him. People make choices because of feeling and not always because of it being the best way to do things.
ya the others were also right in wanting to kill ellie because they watched abby's hate grow and manifest itself on joels face
Well, you could write an essay on this game…..
Sometimes you lose. Im sure abby wouldn’t have traded all her friends lives to take joel’s. What type of people did she think she was dealing with? Abby was entitled when she thought that her actions would have no consequence. She was mistaken. My perception of ellie didn’t change no matter what she did.
To apply to your combat section in the beginning, I think that since you started it at a normal experience, then you should expect leniency. Expecting less supplies and less forgiving enemies on a difficulty right in the middle built for the average gamer doesn't really make too much sense since the harder difficulties are there already. Normal is thereabouts the border of being more into the story rather than the combat. Having a difficulty slider allows the game to be more accessible to a broader audience.
Think about difficulty balancing as a water park, you have the easy mode like a kiddie pool, for the chill and less skilled people, you have the lap pool for the tryhards and skilled players, and then you have the waterslide for the thrill seekers.
I couldn’t have said it better my self actually I tried and it came across as frivolous criticism towards him thank you for your intelligent take my friend
I think the fireflies are portrayed as morally grey at best and as straight terrorists at worst in the first game. They do some pretty messed up stuff in game and have a lot of lore surrounding their misdeeds. I say this because I don’t think what Joel did was entirely selfish, as he was reacting as any parent would to their child be kidnapped and potentially killed without their consent or knowledge by a radical group. Regardless of the vaccine, which to Joel is just a word of mouth rumor at this point, I wouldn’t call anyone selfish for stopping that situation from happening to a loved one.
I kinda disagree that everything is a coincidence, not everything has to have an explicit explanation before it happens:
1. Salt lake crew finding Jackson
- The salt lake crew are all fireflies, it makes sense there are more fireflies after they disbanded. Tommy was also a firefly and Joel was an active part in this to the point that it drove a wedge between them. Abby has been hunting Joel for four years which was a major part of the Abby/Owen conflict, and has been through countless "leads" for Joel, it's not all that farfetched she might get some good intel at one point.
2. Ellie dropping her map
- If the map just fell out of her backpack then that would be a coincidence, but she was actively using it in the interrogation process, lost control and then was pulled out by Tommy and Jesse (who knew she was going there).
3. Abby finding Joel by accident
- Her plan was to interrogate someone on patrol, she went towards where the patrols went out and followed horse tracks. The coincidence isn't finding them, it is that Joel and Tommy were out on patrol at that moment.
4. Ellie finding Abby
- Eh the lead thing is a bit strange, but Tommy had been actively looking for Abby out of guilt and anger, driving a wedge between him and Maria (this theme repeats over and over again). Then getting strung up by rattlers and getting intel that way was also a bit rushed.
Bonus:
- Dina didn't know she was pregnant, she started suspecting it on the way to Seattle and didn't want to turn around on a suspicion.
- Mel going out on the field isn't the weirdest thing as she (understandably) doesn't trust Owen and Abby going alone.
Game isn't about what I would do, it's about what the characters do given situation and motivation. This is the story for me
Ehh none of these explanations make sense.
For 1
The sequence of events is as follows
Tommy is about to leave the Fireflies and for some reason tells to random people, or his friends, where exactly he is going. These unnamed Fireflies manage to join the Wolves. Even though in the game we see WLF shoot our characters on sight without asking questions.
Then these random Fireflies met Abby, and somehow the conversation topic of Tommy comes up and they remembered that Tommy had a brother named Joel. Now remember it can be any Joel or Tommy or maybe the right people she's looking for. The games never clarity how many Fireflies they are, which is also a problem.
It is almost impossible how coincidentally this sequence of events is. Of all the Fireflies across the whole country she bumps into the 1 or 2 who knew all this helpful information
2
Ellie uses the map to get around the city. How would she get back to the theatre if she dropped the map. If she remembers the route why bring the map in the 1st place. In fact, why mark out on the map where your home base is? Literally as a child my mom would tell me not to name our address 'home' on the GPS, just in case someone stole her car.
3
The Abby finds Joel thing is silly because if she can bump into them that easily how have the MANY patrols not noticed Abby's crew yet. The characters even make it clear they are aware of that lodge. Why does no one check there?
The Diana point doesn't make sense since there is no urgency in Ellie search. There is no reason why they can not go back THEN she looks for Abby. Normally better stories would establish that Ellie somehow knows Abby and friends plans to leave soon. An even better story would of shown the two interact as friends to explain how Ellie finds our Abby plans to leave.
Mel is one of few doctors in A FUCKING APOCALYPSE. She shouldn't go onto the field in general. The fact that she's pregnant make this feel like a scene from a cartoon. When did you hear of doctors picking up AKAs during WW2?
The game is a good game for plenty of reasons. The story is just not one of those reasons. Which is honestly true for most game.
@@lesedimokgobi hard disagree with a lot of your points tbh
1. Tommy knew Marlene directly AND the location of the hospital, implying he's fairly well connected in the fireflies. Heck, he might have even been stationed with people who were there at some point. Abby also literally worked there as security. You can safely assume as firefly security first get notified of a man and little girl being brought through the perimeter, they're trying to identify the shit out of them to find out what to do with potential intruders. So, security are going to find out all info they can on him... Again, the security detail also Abby and Owen. They'd also 100% alert Marlene, who would be able to describe that she knew Joel professionally AND because of his brother, which the security detail would want to know. Immediately after the shooting Abby would be asking around with the surviving security (including Owen) to get as much info on him from each other as possible... Idk, there's the potential for a lot of breadcrumbs there. The fireflies were a nationwide organisation; even as they were falling and losing power, there's definitely room to get information. I also feel that the difficultly in acquiring info on Joel actually gives credence to Abby's emotional character decision to run halfway across the country to kill Joel; if you've got a lead when leads are scarce, you're going to do everything you can to act upon it.
2. She marked the theatre location day 1... By day 3, she's not only probs learnt to navigate the city far better than she did when she first marked it, learnt landmarks etc., She's also got Tommy and Jesse there who also at this point probably have some decent navigational skills (and maybe maps too). Sure you can say it's silly for her to have marked the home base, but again, the game's text has established Ellie isn't exactly being perfectly smart about this.
3. They make clear in the dialogue about distributing patrol shifts that patrols rotate and they clear out different areas at different times. They don't literally patrol everywhere near Jackson, all the time to have complete territory control; moreso to try to catch glimpses of survivors and control local infected numbers. They can't inspect literally everywhere, everyday... Say it's a week between patrol's that go up to this area. Abby and Owen's group don't stay there for ages before Abby breaks off; clearly it's Abby's first time seeing the town at the end of a walk that takes her and Owen a max of 10 minutes?? They clearly haven't been there long... So it's just been a few days, or a week, etc. since Jackson patrols have gone through there. It is a coincidence that Joel and Tommy happened to be on shift nearby enough to hear the commotion of the infected chasing Abby... but that's enough of a coincidence for me to excuse (no more egregious of coincidence than meeting various characters throughout the series).
4. Dude the entire point of Ellie's character and narrative at this point is that she is being thoroughly irrational and obsessive over this revenge plot to the detriment of herself and her loved ones. Like, she's barely even turned off from her mission by the pregnancy until she kills pregnant Mel who reminds her of Dina. She's putting her friends at risk for an irrational hunger for revenge. That's the point.
5. It's implied that doctors are still studying; Mel was a student under Abby's dad. So, there still are doctors studying and coming up in the apocalyptic world. Also, WW2 field medics and doctors were like, regularly forced into duty and fighting... As do many medical-aligned military personnel, even contemporaneously. I totally agree that it's ridiculous she'd be put on patrol duty by the WLF, that seems like silly writing.
I'm adamant that the Last of Us 2 isn't as watertight or cohesive a story as the first game... But it's also nowhere near as bad as a lot of people make it out to be, AND also that the first game is less logically watertight than people seem to give it credit for.
I think Mel only went out to help do medical work at the FOB. She wasn’t intended to go out into the field to do wetwork.
@@jarrahkron9 2. It doesn't really matter whether or not Ellie can remember the theater's location. The reality is, she would know the map is gone because using that would be the first thing she'd try doing before relying on memory. This means that either:
A. Tommy, Jesse, and Ellie go back to fetch the map and intercept Abby and Lev, killing them both or at least the former since Abby is outgunned AND outnumbered.
B. They get the map before Abby arrives, meaning Abby has no way of finding them, meaning Jesse doesn't die and Tommy doesn't get crippled which changes the 3rd act completely.
C. The Jackson group remain on guard and easily capture Abby since they know their location is compromised.
D. They leave early, resulting in the same outcome as option B.
I’ve always liked this game. Played it about 6 times now and yea the story is a lil bit stretch out and got some major plot holes but it was an enticing story. Hella fun gameplay, stunning scenery and locations. Never got old playing this game
Dude, play something new. There's countless games far better you're missing out on, going decades back.
Indie games may not have a big of a budget as triple a games but they still are very good games in terms of creativity love and passion❤😀
@@goatlpsVery few games are better than TLoU 2.
While the intro is entirely too convenient, Joel mentions he "traded more than he'd care to admit" for coffee, the hippie dude was probably trading weed across the country, and hypothetically Abby was looking for Tommy based on the fact that he was an ex firefly, the game skipped the believable part by having Abby conveniently find both Joel and Tommy with their guards down I agree. But I think there's a deeper story with all these settlement trade networks that could make Abby finding Tommy/the Jackson settlement believable
I think the Fireflies learning about Tommy's location several years after the fact is fine on its own. It's still a bit of a coincidence, but after all that time, it's not so unlikely as to break suspension of disbelief. It's the fact that Abby is able to start and complete her mission within like two hours that completely shatters it, especially with Ellie's campaign immediately following it as a direct comparison.
@@Nyzer_ You see the last 2 hours, but she took 4 years
@@MisterSquid1 I'm not talking about the part of her journey in which she found Tommy's most likely location and arrived at it. In fact, I explicitly said so...
I'm talking about how she doesn't even arrive in Jackson to start determining where Tommy might even be before both Tommy and Joel are granted to her on a silver platter. Not only does Joel show up at the last second to save her life, they even end up in a position that forces them to retreat to Abby's group for safety. And once they get there, they disarm themselves and show zero concern over this armed, well-fed group with a Humvee in the garage happening to be camped out overlooking Jackson and giving them nonspecific answers about what they're doing there.
It's a ridiculously contrived way to just let Abby get her revenge with no trouble whatsoever. Within hours of arriving at Jackson, she's skipped a ton of steps in her plan and just gotten away without having to kill or lose a single person.
And then we go through Ellie's campaign - which specifically does the opposite, actively drawing attention to how unbelievably convenient things were for Abby.
The fireflys were stupid not to just ask Ellie if she’d give her life willingly, she would have said yes and Joel wouldn’t have killed them all.
Heck maybe try looking more than one day for a brain stem analysis requirement too, give it 8 months, maybe there’s another solution, the desperation of not finding another way would just convince Ellie more.
I stand by the main issue taken with TLoU2 is how the game pushes the player to have a sympathetic view towards Abby.
This isn't saying her motivations don't make any sense or that even the overall message about how revenge only leads to more pain and you need to move on and not let the past define you ect ect.
But game 1 goes out of its way to give the player evidence to support Joel's decision. Not even from an emotional POV either, tho we all can see that.
The game goes out of its way to make you NOT trust the FFs. From their sheer terrorist actions lol to the end when they ambush, knock out and kidnap both Ellie and Joel only to find out who they actually are and STILL hold Ellie against her will and try to force Joel to leave her for dead cus THEY DECIDED THEY WERE GONNA KILL AN INNOCENT 11 YEAR OLD WITHOUT EVEN SPEAKING TO HER.
And that's just the moral side, the game ALSO goes out of its way to make the FFs seem incompetent. A. They have the ONLY IMMUNE PERSON and within HOURS resort to life ending surgery HOPING that this cure might work. No other tests, nothing. Idiotic. And B. Again the game goes out of its way to give you the info that, oh that surgeon who's gonna save the world? Well guess what? He actually was never a surgeon. He had a bachelor's degree in biology before the break out. Not a medical doctor and CERTAINLY NOT a practicing surgeon. And we the player are supposed to see all this and be like "yup, these are the people who are super trustworthy and are gonna save the world!" Lmao
@@timothygriffith2740 He only had a bachelor's degree? In biology? I think I missed that. Where can we find that?
o-o oh. The more I learn, the more my position that 'Joel did nothing wrong' solidifies.
This. The Fireflies picked a completely needless fight which they lost, and Abby's dad is dead specifically because of his own poor choices.
The hell of it is that there is nobody in Abby's life who can tell her this, and little chance that she'd hear it if they did. It's fully understandable why she feels the way she does, even if that's not an excuse for bushwhacking Joel and Tommy. TLOU2 arguably does moral ambiguity and difficult choices better than its predecessor.
@@HighPhoenix1754 I cant find in game where it says this and I'm going by the Wiki which states Jerry graduated with a degree in Bio in 2007. Six years before the outbreak. If we assume Jerry went straight to med school without taking a gap year or getting a Masters degree or such then he would have been able to complete all four years of medical school and been two years into a neurosurgery residency, which wont necessarily teach you everything you need to know, hell you aren't even really doing surgery at the point and are mainly in the OR watching and being allowed to do very minor easy things, but it's still more experience than a non surgical residency. Even past that we can reasonably assume he kept practicing and possibly learning to some greater or lesser capacity (we know research on cordyceps was being done because they have the scanners that can tell if you're infected or not in Boston) post outbreak but that is speculation. The only real thing that works against him is he has a baby face that makes him look like 30 and not closer to 48 (assuming at least 21 in 2007)
If you've played part one, start on survivor and stop using the listen mode. In part one, listen mode was disabled at higher difficulties. Honestly once you stop using it, you realize it's really just training wheels.
i love how differently people see the same, because to me, i love abby so deeply and empathize with both abby and ellie towards the end still, i was very relieved seeing ellie let abby go because them fighting made me so sad knowing i loved them both, and to me ellie letting abby go was a stop to the cycle of violence, realising that killing abby doesnt change anything, doesnt bring joel back, shes already left dina and its reflecting how she has destroyed herself for something that shes now realising wont fix her
Don't forget, the Fireflies were also taking away Ellie's choice. We know Ellie never knew making a cure would mean she'd have to die. Hence the twist revelation near the end of Part 1. But the Fireflies never once said anything to Ellie about it, or woke her up to tell her what trying to make a cure at all would mean for her. They just decided for Ellie to kill her. They took away a girl's choice. Not Joel. Because by living, Ellie at least gets to make choices for herself, which she does. And as we see, the Fireflies willingly killed innocent people and continued to justify it by saying it was for the greater good. Kinda like the military when they killed Joel's daughter, Sara. And they sure were willing to take away their choices to live and did successfully by killing Sara. So, food for thought.
Edit: Also, I want to add that Abby telling her dad that she would choose to die for a chance at the cure, shows two problems: Abby, in that hypothetical, got to make the choice and not have her choice taken away. But also, Ellie, a queer character, having her choice taken away, while Abby, a straight woman, would have gotten to make her choice...Let that sink in.
Ellie being queer means nothing in that choice.
I think you're reading way to deep into the queer aspect, but I totally agree with the rest of your comment. The plot of the second game is full of contrivances and mixed messages.
Honestly I feel like you're reading between the lines way too much. Some plot points are simple and the queer aspect you brought up, in the opinion of a queer woman, is laughable.
They addressed this when ellie says even of she would of died she would of did it. Also the director literally said that ellie hates joel for taking her choice away. Ellie understood the risk even if its wasnt told to her because if you stop a think about it, its implied. They needed to examine her brain and she agreed. This doesnt excuse the fireflies because they did the same. But ellie chose them. So no Joel did not help ellie. He helped himself nd im glad they didnt write him where he acted like he did. The crazy thing is if he didnt lie it might of been different. But the action plus the lie led to so much bs that it objectively was the wrong thing to do
@@ChrisGoldie woudla been nice if they just up and said that rather than causing bullshit and answering AFTER people asked. It's almost like they only said that cause they knew they didn't want people thinking for themselves and to only think how they think. 🤔
Even though I didn't like the story itself, I would still rank it Amazing... I've played a lot of video games and The Last of US Part 1 was the frist game to make me cry. Most games don't give me a strong emotion even though they had an interesting story. I've said, "oh that is sad." and carry on the game like normal. TLOU 1 had me taking breaks because I couldn't see the TV screen through the tears.
The Last of Us Part 2, while it didn't make me cry, it made me had stronge emotions to where I had to pause the game. Either I was too upset after someone dying or I was too traumatize after beating/kiling someone. So I would have to take mental breaks. I still think that shows an amazing writing skill.
I hope they come out with more video games based off this world. Doesn't have to be about Ellie or Joel. I just loved the gaming mechanics of this game.
For sure. I had trouble deciding whether it should be “Amazing” or “it has potential”
I think it's accurate to say it shows "an" amazing writing skill. If you can stay on board for all the major emotional moments, you're in for one hell of a ride.
However, it's clear that this writing team has some major weaknesses. Multiple characters fail to maintain their characterization at certain times, and the plot as a whole seems to rely much more on coincidences rather than character-driven outcomes. Either point would be bad enough on its own, but combine both and a major portion of your audience is going to feel like you're railroading them across your rough draft, causing a lot of them to fall off the ride and miss most of the impact of those big emotional moments. And then to make matters even worse, the character-driven narrative of the first game is what made that game such a masterpiece - by erring on the side of drama rather than characterization, by losing one of the core elements that caused the first game to garner such praise, your new entry will fail to appeal to at least some of the folks who were fans of the first.
As a parent, I have to say i probably would've done what Joel did. It was a mistake to not ask Ellie what she wanted to do and lying to her was wrong. Objectively speaking, saving the world is the right thing to do. But this show is about love and how subjective you are when you make decisions like that. What you're capable of doing for those you love. Most parents would do ANYTHING for their kids. I know I would! Joel most certainly did! And he was NOT going to lose a second chance at being a father.
TLOU part 2 is the greatest game I’ve ever played in every way
then you haven't played enough games
@@xundereofficialit’s his opinion lol
One thing is, Abby at the beginning, was looking for Tommy. In an aquarium flashback she tells Owen that she has a lead to Tommy. It just baffles me looking back that when Tommy introduced himself nobody bats an eye but jaws hit the floor when Joel introduced himself. Tommy is actually the one they were looking for to start with.
At one point Ellie and Dina talk about Joel and his love of coffee. Dina asks where he got it and Ellie says he traded it for something with some people passing by. That implies there are peaceful groups passing by Jackson, making trades. Joel could have introduced himself to them and as these people moved on, they could have mentioned it without any intention really. The word could spread, there are people cooperating all around the continent, talking via radio etc. Information is also traded in this world. That's how later Tommy found Abby was seen at Santa Barbara. It is definitely possible that the information of Joel's location could get to Abby, especially as she's been actively searching for it for years, enough time to get to her. It seems quite realistic to me.
I think Abby tells Owen in Seattle that she met some former fireflies who told her that Thommy (also a former firefly) is in Jackson and they follow that hint to maybe find out where Joel is through Thommy. Then they were lucky by finding him in Jackson. I think that is pretty plausible
@@lordanaconda6523 absolutely
Every question you have the game answers it if you actually pay attention
Really? ok how does it answer how Tommy and Joel were complacent enough to trust a random group of armed strangers?
@@darthrevan454 They weren't
@@lukescrew1981 They weren't yet they did it anyways. Sounds like bad writing then.
@@darthrevan454 Except it wasn't
@@lukescrew1981 Cool you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about lol
Anybody with children would save them. It's not even a debate.
The more i played this the more i loved abby and lev. My first playthrough i hated her but with a better understanding of her makes me feel for her and her situation
You like gorilla women 🦍 wtf
@Shaughn im just going to assume your an 11 year old boy trolling and ignore that dumb comment.
@@stavonscott2119 I’m just gonna assume your a mentally disabled baboon who thinks Abby is a good character. Are you fucking insane? What makes her a good character? Your just like Abby apparently, spewing the most basic NPC lines imaginable.
I just can't believe someone will like abby after what she did
You do realize joel did the same thing, right? But you like him
4) Gaming technicalities: I think the difficulty in this game, and even moreso the customization of difficulty and accessibility options in this game are groundbreaking, exceptional, and deserve mountains of praise. I think your personal gameplay experience may have been diluted by playing on normal difficulty, and I feel that playing on survivor or hard difficulty are the way that this game was really meant to be experienced by the majority of gamers who are fans of this survival horror genre. Here's why:
I don't know this to be fact, but in my humble opinion, playing on harder difficulties (NOT the "grueling/grounded/suicide/legendary/brutal/challenge" difficulty tiers) forces players to utilize a wider variety of the mechanics via resource scarcity and forces them to make decisions about how to allocate their crafting resources (i.e. health pack vs molotov or silencer vs exploding arrow etc). I believe that devs generally include tools/mechanics into game for them to be utilized, and sure some will be stronger than others, but they're particularly placed in the environment very very thoughtfully such that you'll have enough to survive if you're efficient and selective in how you use them. This resource scarcity component also has a big impact on how players approach combat sequences. In normal mode you can just run and gun, as you described, but on survivor you will die unless you are strategic about your positioning, ammo management, and use of stealth in most of the combat sequences. (again, stealth is very well developed and executed in this game, and I think it's meant to be utilized.)
As an aside, the above doesn't really apply to the casual gamer/fan that just wants to enjoy a story with some fun action sequences mixed in (which is also a perfectly fine way to experience a game if preferred)
I was looking for a comment like this. I personally think playing a game on normal to review anything other than the story is a horrible idea. Playing a grounded playthrough right now and it makes everything super immersive. Have to really think about your attack plan or more likely stealth through and kill no one. This game is an absolute masterpiece
I didn't find Abby and her crew - who tagged along with her on this unapproved mission - leaving Ellie and Tommy alive weird at all. If they all were to be killed, it could have started a potential war with Jackson. That's something that the WLF could not afford to deal with considering their current conflict with the Seraphites.
I could see them leaving Tommy alive due to him being an ex firefly. Not the best decision, but people make silly mistakes all the time.
For all they know killing Joel would have done that aswell.
Their mission was approved by Isaac. How they could've avoided war with Jackson is by killing Joel and leaving no witnesses behind; then gtfo with their truck the moment the snowstorm starts to subside. Instead they left 2 witnesses who just saw them bash a guy's head in, 1 witness begging them to stop then vowing revenge, and another an experienced, ex-Firefly. Nevermind that they were all wearing WLF gear that can be identified and traced. Besides, a war with Jackson is the least of their concern. Remember the WLF dogma is to shoot on sight. WLF are not worried about making enemies. Leaving Ellie and Tommy alive is either pure stupidity or hubris on their part for which they paid heavily in the end.
A potential war? How? How would there be a war if they don't know who killed who? The coping is insane.
@@darthrevan454 LMAO! "Coping"?
WTH, man?! This was a year old comment discussing a 4 yr old game. Get over it, dude!
I'm going back to sleep. 🤣
If the writers were truly confident in their work they would of given people the choice on what to do with Abby, them forcing mercy shows they didn't have faith in their own story
You realise they did the same thing for Joel in Part 1. They didn’t give us a choice to save Ellie, they just made us do it. Were the writers not confident that people wouldn’t save Ellie? NO. It’s because it’s a LINEAR story you doofus
Watch this if you want a dude to forget video games require some suspension of disbelief for 2 hours
I love this comment. So many game “reviewers” and video essayists have become so lazy, they’ll suspend disbelief for a game that they love and think is great then nitpick the ones they don’t, even though both may be unrealistic to a similar degree. Ofc there comes a point where it’s asking you to suspend too much, but TLOU is on the lighter side of that.
I really dont get how the fireflies finding Joel after 4 years is "unrealistic". After all, Joel found Tommy after an even longer period of time. Another thing worth noting is that the fireflies weren't even expecting to find Joel, they were looking for Tommy, which is why they're all surprised when Joel introduces himself.
Ellie went out to confront her trauma, not for vengeance. In all of the major events in her life, she was robbed of choice. Just this once, she wanted to find the person who took away the most important person in her life and decide if she wanted to kill her or let her go. Ultimately, it didn't matter which one she choose - what gave her closure was the ability to choose at all.
This is the perfect analysis
I still feel this wasn't needed tho, I found it boring
despite the fact that tommy originally had ties to the fireflies and that joels notoriety from the firefly massacre being more than reason enough for abby to eventually pursue AND find joel, im curious if YOU were to write it to be better how you wouldve handled it?
Good question. Personally, off the top of my head, I can't think of something better for having Abby's group figure out Tommy's location, not without drastically changing the plot. For example, having someone who arrived in Jackson relatively recently turn out to be an ex-Firefly spy? Lots of people have suggested the idea of Abby infiltrating the town, befriending Ellie as part of her cover, and all that. And that wouldn't be a small change.
But in all honesty, I don't think that would have been necessary. That coincidence would have been fine if it was the only time the game relied on coincidences like that. As the video said, the main problem is the fact that the coincidences and other examples of lazy writing pile up fast. One or two crucial coincidences over the whole game wouldn't be a big deal, but there are more than that in the opening act alone.
@@Nyzer_ i dont think these "coincidences" are that astounding and even if they are convenient i dont think they are more convenient than coincidences that happen in other games that we give a pass. even in the last of us 1 ellie running into david or something right? the story is on a mission to set up events that pay off to a story and while i think there are ways that make it blatantly transparent its the case, i dont think TLOU2 made some egregious writing faux pas with its "coincidences" you know?
@@ZEEYANG It's definitely a step down from the first game, which is what makes it disappointing. Things in Part I tended to be more character-driven, and the character-driven narrative was the defining trait that made it so beloved. Part II moves closer towards "standard video game story" quality levels, which is not at all a compliment.
A recent video came out discussing Part II that actually talks a fair bit about the coincidences as they happen, and I'd say to check it out if you're interested. Overall, the author liked the game, but those sorts of flaws really dragged it down for him. He also went on for a bit about how if you hate that the game is "woke" you need to grow up and go out into the real world for a bit, which had me chuckling - it's not even close to just a blind hate video. But if you genuinely want to hear a breakdown of this game's overreliance on convenient coincidences, it's worth playing in the background while you do housework or something.
ua-cam.com/video/5BfaUOdgndM/v-deo.html
@Nyzer you just linked me to the video we were commenting under :V. The same video I disagree with..
@@ZEEYANG Haha, sorry. I thought this was on a different video. But yeah, this game's overuse of coincidences is definitely worse than the previous game's. It's so much worse that if you actually don't see it, I would legitimately question if you've even played the previous game. As I'm sure I've said, one of the core traits of TLOU's success was that it was so far above the usual industry standards, being one of the flagship titles proving that games can be written on par with big movies or TV shows. Saying that Part II doesn't deviate much from the industry standards just isn't as good of a defense as you might think.
Where part 1 is a 10 out of 10 masterpiece, Part 2 is a 8 out 10 great game that drops the ball mostly for me, due to its structure. The story had a lot of potential to elevate itself beyond the first game, with its theme of perspective and how that informs our understanding of character, and morality, depending on what side of the narrative the story is being told through i.e Abby vs Ellie. There's nothing fundamentally I would change in terms of the plot points but, if Naughty Dog wanted to be really bold, I think they should've structured the story so that you play from Abby immediately and built her character up more to make us empathize with her first, before witnessing her bash Joel's head in with a baseball bat. Also, I think they use lazy ways narratively to make us empathize with Abby. Example, look guys, Ellie kills dogs during her campaign, but you know what, Abby pets them. Or look guys, Abby is on a mission to save a small child just like Joel did in the first game. And it reframes the narrative of the first game by demonizing Joel and Ellie, to justify the narrative of the second game, which could've worked if there were more nuance and subtlety to with how they handled these two campaigns, without the obvious bias towards Abbys, a character that fans hadn't built a relationship with over the course of the first game. Also, Abbys campaign had the better set pieces: the Rat King boss battle, the burning village she and Lev have to escape at the end of the game. However, I think Ellie had the more compelling narrative considering her motivations. All in all, while I don't hate TLOU2, it sinks under the weight of its narrative ambitions due its structure, poor pacing between its two campaigns, obvious bais towards Abbys plight, despite touting a narrative that was supposed to show how morally gray both women's actions were, and the lazy ways it tries to get us to empathize with Abby. Great game, sure. Masterpiece? Well, that's debatable.
Couldn't agree more. The BIGGEST problem with the game is the story structure. They should've started the game off or near the start with the player playing as Abby, so then people would actually have some connection with this character. Instead somebody was mixing coke and Benadryl and decided "Hey what if we have this random nobody kill the protagonist of the first game, kill Jessy one of the nicest characters in the game, AND THEN seemingly kill Tommy and hey now you have to play as this nobody and kill Ellie a character you love." AND THEN EVERYONE IN THE ROOM SAID "YEAH THAT SOUNDS LIKE A PERFECT IDEA!" WTF!
Also I really don't like Abby's dad he's just this perfect great guy who saves zebras and evil bad guy Joel killed him for No rEasON... No Joel killed him because he was going to kill a little girl and scoop out her brain without getting her permission which like Dude you really couldn't just idk WAIT! Literally A Day! And he wouldn't be dead if he just moved out the way.
For me though one of the reasons why I think TLOU2 was so controversial is because RDR2 came out and gave us one of the greatest video game sequels of all time and the original RDR came out around the same time as TLOU and whenever you compare the two... yeeeeeeah.
@@pintolerance785 If the game started with Abby, either they will reveal she's after Joel early and people would still hate her. Or the game would try to hide it, which i don't believe they could for that long, but if it did, then everyone would feel betrayed that they made us play through her mission to kill Joel. Abby story is supposed to compliment Ellie's, showing how her revenge ruined her life and the lives of all of her friends, and how there are better ways of moving on and finding peace, and what could happen to Ellie if she goes through her revenge. And they put that story right after we see Ellie get more and more obsessed with killing Abby. Its understandable why the game is structured the way it is.
@@JH-xc9we I bet you also enjoy the boomerang storytelling structure in The Walking Dead seasons 7-8.
@@pintolerance785 Wouldn't know. I didn't watch it.
Thank you for being reasonable about the game. Its a great game with a couple of flaws that seriously detracted from the experience. My personal big hangup is the pacing. That half-way cut off point to kick off abbys half was just a horrendous move in terms of structure. It just ruins the build up and pay off of the entire story for me. Its hard to appreciate the good qualities of the gamr without a second play through I felt.
i just finished your TLOU 1 retrospective and i was hoping that the retrospective of part 2 was out and it just happens to be a couple hours after it truly great timing
I just did the same thing aswell
My main problem with the game well particularly Abby is like you said they tried to make Abby come across as a good person rather than a real person. She saves children, plays with dogs, her dad helps free zebras and she finally opts out of a war (that she also gladly participated in anyways so). And meanwhile they portray Ellie as such a shit person almost evil not only due to vengeance but just in general. Ellie is such a bloodthirsty monster in this game that I genuinely believe that deep down though she won’t admit it she somewhat enjoys killing people
I get it Abby is supposed to be on the ascension in her journey while Ellie is on her descent but man did they mess it up hard here. They didn’t need to show Abby being such a good person and try to humanize her faction to get me to understand her side. In the first game in the university a member of David’s group goes “Those were my friends you killed asshole” to Joel. I felt more sympathy to that guy than Abby and their group were cannibal murderers. We didn’t to play as that guy to understand just one comment and we go okay I get it.
Honestly if they were really committed to Ellie being on a downward spiral they should’ve her her kill Abby at the end. That way Ellie can see that revenge really isn’t the answer and the impact of her losing everything hits harder. I also think Abby would’ve made more of an impact as a character had she died as many times revenge is only a path to the grave. I mean sure Ellie sees this but only after she kills hundreds of people and for some reason she sees Joel playing a guitar and stops (even though she’s had flashbacks of Joel and her being happy already and still went after Abby). It’s such a mess and I could go way more into it but I think I said enough
I generally agree that Abby's section painted her in too good of a light, but I will offer this small counter-argument: the same happened with Joel in the first game. In Joel and Abby's stories we hear about them being ruthless killers and apathetic survivors from other characters and their own mouths but their respective games only show that evilness under specific emotional situations. Joel was scary enough to spook the shit out of a black market kingpin and Abby was the WLF's top Seraphite killer. Both of them had an ugly past, but the games mainly focused on said self-redemption.
@@J-manli Sure but with Joel it felt real. Like the video said it took months for them to get to that point. With Abby 2 days with a kid was enough for her to abandon and kill people she’s known for years. Many of which she probably went on missions with and likely saved her life. And she betrays them. And the first game didn’t try and make Joel seem like a good person. He’s still a bad guy but the point is that he’s not evil. With how Abby killed Joel after he saved her life, hunted him down for years, betrayed the WLF and ruined the lives of everyone around her I’d say Abby is straight up evil. Which is fine but her “redemption” is so forced and artificial considering a majority of the story takes place over 3 days.
@@AHappyBlackGuy ...Yeah Abby's goodytwoshoes story was absolutely nauseating. It felt contrived, forced and as such unnatural. I was really surprised how clumsy and ill thought out the story was to be honest.
Looking back at 2 years later the story really wasn’t all that bad. It just felt out of order,I feel like if they mixed or moved things around storywise it would have been better received. I believe it failed from the lies and false advertisement of Joel being around we weren’t pissed that Joel died we were pissed on how naughty dog did it
Honestly I think the story would be good if reworked and adjust, take this for instance, show us the world through Abby’s view, her four years hunting Joel and how it affected her, then we would get to the Joel and Ellie stuff in the story where she finds out the truth maybe add some more realistic feelings to that, make Dina a more relatable character that gets along really well with Ellie, also add the idea that maybe instead of having Abby kill Joel, have one of the fireflies kill him, that way when Abby finds Joel it’s too late, as she realized everything she did, all the people she used and hurt was for nothing
joel thing was there to debunk his rumors of death and not to spoil anything ig
You're trying to play both sides. You can't just say "it wasn't all that bad" then list the reasons why it was terrible. Like wtf?
God this is the best facial mapping ive ever seen in my life
I honestly think people would have been more accepting of Abby if we started with her flashback instead, mimicking the way the first game began as well, only she didn't die. Showing us she is the literary foil to Sarah and her dad to Joel without us being upset with her yet.
I also think forcing people to play someone who killed their favorite character for "redemption" was a bad move. I didn't care enough about Abby to accept her redemption.
They either did Joel's death too early while we played Abby's character because we play the entire rest of the game hating her,
or instead of us playing her back and forth with Ellie they should have had us play her character as a surprise later on in the game after we played some parts with Ellie chasing them down because it would have taken me off guard not expecting to play Abby by that point.
They tried to pull a feelings switcheroo with Abby in the beginning that didn't work. I didn't feel conflicted I only felt upset at her character and then didn't enjoy playing the game itself because I was playing the character I was upset with.
It was an intentional choice to just play as Abby and then go to murdering Joel in the beginning of the game to get you to hate her, and then later you see her POV and realize she did what Joel would've done if someone killed Ellie.
The whole point of the game is that you feel uncomfortable playing as Abby after the mid point and then you slowly begin to empathize with her as she realizes revenge did nothing for her and she's more than just a cog for the WLF. Sure, not everyone is going to like with a game making you feel upset, but acting like it's bad writing or design if the game makes you feel something other than pure joy is just a children's understanding of what media should do.
i see a lot of abby apologigest like it's cool to beat men to death with a blunt object for id say atleast a bout right? that's not cruel and unusual punishment? if she shot him a couple times or beat him in a fuel of rage for 30 seconds i'd get the meat riding but like wtf? did you not play on grounded with joel, did you not go across the country with joel and ellie. i have a sneaking suspicion there's a large group of new players that played the second game before the first. like i really think you can break up ideas on this game into two big categories then it splits from there. those that played original/remaster-part2 then those that did the reverse or maybe even the sub category or part2-part1 cause they didn't want to buy an old game or something. i see people quick to defend abby and say her cruel treatment of joel was ok while saying joel was essentially a bad man that had his death coming to him, do you not feel bad an old man was beat to death in front of his daughter? wouldn't abby technically deserve similar treatment for killing ellie's parent(in a worst manner to be honest, that wasn't gonna be an open casket funeral boys). can someone that played part2 then went back to the first help me understand your perspective so im not in the dark, does the abby stuff work more when you know the writers made that surgeon her father, cause that's what i'm thinking. added context changes that last sense heavily.
At first I watched pewdiepie or whoever released the first play through of the game I was so angry with the ending and how the entire game unfolded and how you had to play as Abby rather than just Ellie. Then after a long two year wait from when it released till this year i fell in love. When I first played it I couldn’t even describe how much I love it. It’s supposed to make you angry. It’s supposed to make you uncomfortable. That’s the point you’re supposed to feel unsettled with how Joel died. That’s the beauty of the game.
That’s just bullshit though, just cheap deaths, this game is a sequel not a standalone is it supposed to be a continuation of the previous game and it just spits in the face of all the previous characters, this isn’t just something that happened. This is a story that they wrote.
@@joaquingill6310 i appreciate you giving me your opinion on how you value the game and I agree with you that there are DEFINITE flaws and mistakes the creators made but who knows what they were think when they made tlouII. The game overall isn’t that bad it’s just long and tedious and has a really scattered storyline
How is that beautiful?
Completely disagree with your cons list. I think, despite this video being 2 hours long, you fail to really grasp or understand the characters and their choices. Guess it's a difference in how gamers interact with the narrative.
Literally!
I'm surprised you kind of glossed over her PTSD and didn't tie it in to her reasoning for going to find Abby in Santa Barbara. She is STILL haunted by Joel's death, to the point that it's debilitating and she has zero closure. Her reasoning for going to Santa Barbara isn't because she's necessarily in the same vengeful streak as before, it's because she's trying to find some sort of peace with Joel's death. Right before deciding to not kill Abby, Ellie finally remembers Joel in a positive light. She's at peace and decides that she doesn't need to kill Abby. THATS the point of the latter section of the game... To show that Ellie is suffering so badly from PTSD that she needs to confront Abby and find some sort of closure, even at the sacrifice of her relationship with Dina and JJ.
Yeah the end summary makes it glaringly obvious that this guy’s grasp on media literacy is tenuous at best. PTSD, trauma, guilt, and especially Ellie’s survivors guilt in particular all make people do insane illogical things.
@@djnevling8253
PTSD could even lead to Ellie choosing to shoot Dina, JJ, and herself if that's the case. PTSD is not carte-blanche to let the characters do arbitrary things -- you have to set it up properly.
Ellie murders people to find Abby. If she's on a journey of trauma, this should only worsen it.
Joel did nothing wrong. Last of Us completely shows the Fireflies to be incompetent. There first introduction in the game is blowing up a security gate like terrorists and then getting whooped. Every further sign shows them to be slaughtered like in the capitol or how stupid they were with infected monkeys at the university. By the time Joel and Ellie make it to the hospital, they are in shambles. When they take Ellie, without consent, to kill her, they also are murdering Joel. Marlene has already taken Joel's supplies and then has him marched out into the wild with nothing, pretty certain death. At this point, Joel has had his surrogate daughter taken and to be killed, his supplies taken and being marched out to die, and he never even got paid for the initial job complete. Joel was totally in the right.
Finally, Ellie never expected to die. She talks several times about what they plan on doing afterwards. She also mentions she hopes the test isn't like giving blood as she hates needles. A far cry from a girl ready to die.
The first game ended perfect and was a fantastic stand alone experience. The sequel was revisionist, poorly paced, and completely unnecessary.
Truthfully, the series should have been an anthology series and been a story telling platform rather than a continuing narrative.
"I almost hate them both now, Naughty Dog fucked up" how people can be so close and still completely miss the point of this game is beyond me. Same with the "she has the perfect life, why would she do this now" wow it's almost like we spent this whole game learning that revenge addiction makes you blind to anything and anyone else.
I don’t think it affects the first game. The first game is a masterpiece. I also never thought Ellie has the “perfect life.” The whole video boils down to me explaining how the game relies to much on coincidences rather than genuine storytelling. There is a time and place for coincidences. Using them 24/7 isn’t a great way to write a narrative.
I do feel they changed Ellie's personality a bit without explaining why or how, and that just made me disconnect with her
@@gaia7240 What do you mean? Every change in Ellies character is tied to Joel, specifically two things about him:
- His lie, which she found out and that ruptured their relationship
- His death, which caused her to have massive trauma, specifically because only recently (like a day before) did they start to repair their relationship.
Both of these caused her to think about nothing but revenge and to do anything for it, it's the main theme of the game: hate. Then she finds out Dina is pregnant, which causes her to do Day 2 alone, which shows that when she doesn't have anyone stopping her she just lets her anger take control (like when she brutally murders Nora). Then day 3 she kills Owen and Mel, which causes her to finally snap out of her revenge, until Abby shows up and kills Jesse, shoots Tommy and beats the fuck out of her and Dina. This causes her trauma to come back even stronger, which is why their perfect life in the farm didn't last.
51:48 can we talk about how Jesse materializes out of thin air right there. The odds of him stumbling on Ellie like that are millions to one if not lower, it's just one of the many convenient things that just happen because the dev's brains left the chat.
Well, it is a game. So the odds of that happening is 100% because the writer said so
Do you realize what is the probability of Joel and Ellie living and arriving at Fireflies Hospital at the end of the first game? Yeah, almost zero.
@@bm7502 man your logic is flawed, the mental gymnastics you have to make to get that answer are huge. Joel and Ellie in the first game were creating their own chances, they didn't survive by pure luck, I think the game makes it pretty clear Joel is a super skilled survivor with a lot of experience. They survived because they stuck together and helped each others when times were tuff. Compare that to the lazy writing of TLOU2 where Jesse just stumbles upon Ellie when in Seattle, Seattle ain't a small city and he just happens to find her when she has her guard down and when she needs him the most, ain't that convenient? And even if their chances to get to the fireflies in the first game were zero as you said, it still doesn't excuse the terrible writing of TLOU2.
@@Greenignitor what I am saying is this is a game, and your logic does not apply here. My logic is flawed? Dude, why the hell are you using logic for a game? You think killing hundreds of armed people, going berserk and Rambo-like is realistic? Fireflies rescuing Joel and Ellie near the hospital at the exact moment is logical? Come on. I know you love the first game, but both part 1 and 2 is not logical in some ways.
This really ain't it. It's like complaining about how likely it was for Sam and Henry to come across Joel and Ellie. Or how likely it was for Tommy to find Abby.
Or if you wanna go outside of TLOU, it's like complaining about the chances of Charlie finding the golden ticket, or Peter being bitten by the radioactive spider. That's one of the times where suspension of disbelief is 100% what the viewer has to do. That's just story telling.
So, coincidence is always a thing in stories. It’s literally in every story, if there aren’t coincidences the story can’t happen. But it’s super disingenuous to knock on a story just because of coincidences when you wouldn’t do it to another story just because you don’t like the coincidences that took place for the story to happen. Also, clearly you did not pay attention to the scene of Abby killing Joel from their perspective. Owen was the one that said that they shouldn’t kill Ellie. When everyone else, including Mel wanted to kill her. As we see later with Owen not killing the old man scar he doesn’t like killing people he feel doesn’t deserve it, he’s also not as deep into being a “soldier” as the rest of them. He wasn’t really into it, he did out of necessity and most likely just to be with Abby. Which is why we see him wanting to skip training and convincing Abby to stay longer with him at the aquarium. It’s also why Owen wants to leave and go to Santa Barbara. Owen was more aligned with the actual ideas of the fireflies, of wanting to save the world and actually do good things for the people. Even though most of the fireflies didn’t really care and just liked the freedom and were tired of being treated like shit by Fedra. So the reason they did not kill Ellie is because of Owen. Owen was willing to let himself get killed just to save a girl he didn’t even know. He was with Abby for her, while yes he probably wanted Joel dead too it was very clear the way they did it messed with him. Owen was a voice of reason for Abby but she didn’t always listen due to her emotions and drive for revenge getting in the way. But the same way Owen stopped Ellie from getting killed, Lev stopped Dina from getting killed. Which is why Abby grew attached to Lev, Abby was deep down a good person but she blinded herself on the training and the revenge because of the death of her Father, who before that was always teaching her to be a good person, to help others. But without him Owen was the only one there and clearly their relationship wasn’t the greatest, most likely because Owen wasn’t exactly for the whole revenge thing.
im interested to know your opinion on the game .
@@marcushenderson1741 gameplay wise it’s amazing, there’s nothing like it. But story wise I get the hating Joel’s death but videos like this and the people who think like this I just don’t think the story is for them, and that’s okay. It just feels disingenuous to pretty much nitpick plot points in a way you wouldn’t on a story you love. You can pick apart any story like this but that’s not fun to do, if you sit there and say “well this is too much of a coincidence” or “this just isn’t believable” every story will eventually fall apart, because Authors write the story in a way and it’s not often not meant to be taken apart like this. It’s taken as it is. And people can say the story wasn’t made for them and it wasn’t, authors write for themselves as much as they write for fans. Neil even says he made the game how it was because of his own thoughts at the time and he was really into the cycle of violence and the consequences. They could’ve easily made another game where Joel and Ellie go on another adventure or something but they didn’t, and that’s why I love it. I was also pissed off when Joel died, which is what the writers want. So as Ellie you wanna kill those people as much as she does. But then Jessie dies, Dina, Ellie, and Tommy are all wounded horribly. And you sit there and think “going after Abby was not worth it”. Because you can say “Abby is a monster she’s hurting these people” but Ellie just did the same thing. You just did the same thing. While Ellie was in that place Abby was before killing Joel, Abby was learning to let it go and finding meaning in another way, in someone else. So after Ellie gives up this beautiful life with Dina and a child for revenge and she finally gets to Abby but sees that she is only protecting that kid at that point it’s similar to Joel and Ellie. She has that realization right before killing Abby that killing her isn’t gonna make the pain stop. And we see with Abby still having nightmares about her dad’s death and killing Joel that it did not solve anything. Only after the act and saving Lev and Yara does she finally move on from it. It’s a story that if you don’t care Abby and if you’re not willing to see it from her point of view as well as Ellie’s then it’s not gonna hit for you. I think they made a fantastic story and game that was always doomed to be controversial and they knew that. And I love it for taking that risk and doing what they wanted to do. Because at the end of day if you want Joel and Ellie the 1st game is always there. And no return having all the different characters to play as including Joel basically gives you the Joel gameplay you want. And not mention in the midst of all this crazy story they somehow made a John wick simulator 😭 sorry for all of this
@@Soma-vd3lp no problem i forgot to say that i agreed with your previous comment , lol that's my bad. I don't agree with a lot of the what the narrator said either. but what you you're saying now makes sense. seeing as you have the better understanding of the game i was hoping we could chat privately on another platform aside from twitter
I LAUGHED so hard at the "What in the musty ass?!" 🤣
In the beginning saying that Joel personality wouldn’t let him trust Abby and that’s bad story but doesn’t have an issue with Ellie’s personality changing and that’s good story writing What? Make up you’re mind
I absolutely agree with the entry of the game and the events that happen. I do wish we had gameplay options of playing strictly as Ellie or as Abby. I think the developers point would have been better recognized. And give more information as to why and how things happened.
I really liked this game till the first long Abby part after that the game got boring and felt weird going from the climax to basically to the beginning. It kinda ruined it for me. Still many tears were spilled
everytime i get to see some vid about this game, being an absolute fan of the first one, i was tempestating myself of questions...even cause when i had just played it, i heard a friend of mine liking a lot abby's character, whoile i wasnt. This game from a techincal point of view is gorgeus, but....i couldn't play it again, after the first playtrough. I have in these days accepted more that the narrative is rude and cruel and thats fair, even though cause its what that world is..cruel and rude. It was a major pain, punching Ellie as Abby, and i think im not the only one who felt like that...cause...they tried to make you empaythize with Abby but thats not i wanted. I think they lengthen these game in some section, especially abby's one. I think that giving major abby's info, with lot less of moments with her would have helped making these game better. it could also have been less cruel but still it has transmitted us strong messages about love and vengeance. overall i wopuld give this between "it has potential" and "amaizing", but its far from what i experienced in the first one, told by someone who agreed with the choices of making abby win the fight and letting her alive in the end. Sometimes plenty of people want the fairytale finale, but not having that can help to create a masterpiece...just like the first chapter. I really hope in a pt 3, that could make us live again what we experienced in the first one, and to solve us the pain of these one.
Joel DID NOT DECIDE FOR ELLIE. Infact Joels actions are the ONLY thing that let Ellie truly have a choice for herself.
She now has to ability to seek out somone who can make a cure and CHOOSE to sacrifice herself. The FFs had taken that away. Joel saving her factually gave it back.
Granted Joel did hide that from her in the beginning which IS wrong. But doesnt take away from the FACT that her being alive is the ONLY way she is able to make a choice for herself
It's mentioned multiple times the only guy who knew how to make the vaccine was Abbys dad... who Joel murdered.
He 100% decided for Ellie. Sure, Ellie most likely wasn't told she would die due to the surgery, but Ellie says she would have wanted the surgery despite knowing this.
Abby has been on a hunt for Joel for 4 years, so she has been trying to gather bits and pieces of his whereabouts. and after i think about 3 years and a bit she found a lead in Tommy who was a former Fireflies and separated to set up a new town in Jackson. so she went to Jackson in the hope of finding Tommy and find out what she can about Joel. fortune favors her to not only find Tommy but also Joel himself. coincidences happen all the time in real life, and in story telling, using a bit of coincidences at the beginning of the story to kick the plot going is fine. its only hard to accept if a coincidence get the main character out of a problem they are facing, then it is not good, a deux ex machina. i was perfectly fine with how Abby found Joel. you have to remember, even though we didnt know Abby like how we know and love the characters in LoU1, Abby is still a fully fleshed out human being with very strong motivation to find and kill Joel, to avenge not just the Fireflies and all the people who maybe could have been saved if Joel didnt do what he did, but also to avenge her father, who she loves very much just the same as Ellie loves Joel.
Overly Sarcastic Productions did a whole trope talk about Deus Ex Machinas and stated that we as audiences weirdly accept the fact that bad luck can randomly happen to our protagonists but tend to dislike it when good luck randomly happens to them.
1:28:16 I believe it’s the people that Joel brings up to Ellie that he had traded something for coffee
I honestly love this game and im very excited to see it adapted in season 2
I wonder how they will adapt it… thoughts?
@@jamescarr1265 wait to do the thing everyone hates until 3-4 episodes in so we have some time with the main characters
@@swagwolfgang also hopefully they pick an actual good actor for Abby.. Shannon berry is what a lot of people want but she can’t act
I get why people hate this game but i personally just dont feel that way i was iffy about playing as abby but after like 2 hours i was fine with it the only thing i straight up did not like doing is the ellie boss fight because as much as i like abby im on ellies side 100%
(Some rambles idk)
The story should've been that at the beginning Abby was a new rising member of Jackson, getting along with everyone there and helping with her strong buff muscles, and that she and Ellie were getting along pretty well
But Joel still has his eye on her, he may be rusty but he's still joel miller, the same guy who wouldn't hesitate to run over a raider
Yadda yadda, time moves along, and yeap, Abby's been meeting with some unknown individuals in the forest when no one's looking, Joel gets a glimpse of this, slips away quietly, and tries to warn Ellie, but she's still mad at him
And then suddenly, oh no, there seems to be a small camp of people on the outskirts asking for help, Joel why don't you take a look, and bring Abby with you, she can do some heavy lifting
Which leads us to golf
We need to see abby as this neat new character first and THEN we can flip flop between her and ellie
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but it was definitely pretty good. It has a lot of structural issues, and it's an emotional black hole to play, but as far as sequels go, it did pretty well - and the respect the game actually had for Joel was really surprising after all the discourse I'd heard online.
The last of us two should have been a all Abby game. Show how she survived and what she did. They had to involve her father and get him integrated to the story. Then when he dies in the end have her and Joel’s path come together in part three. My opinion
How does one play this game? Do you play from Joel Ellie or Abbie perspective and do you get to choose the POV character to play?
The game swaps who you play as depending on where you are in the story. There's no choice on who you are
@@tygrademello6841 So you're forced to do a rotation playing every character? Wow that sounds confusing. In part 1 you just play Joel or Ellie but in part 2 you gotta play both sides as Ellie and Abbie so it gets confusing they force you to play both sides but I guess it gives you a better understanding of each character. It's a very unusual game. Thanks for explaining.
@Jon Freeman yeah, it can be, but I personally really like it. It highlights that Abby and Ellie have the same Goal. Plus, you get fun weapons unique to each gal.
I feel like the main reason i ( and a lot of other people) didnt enjoy the game as much as they should have (cus putting my feelings aside its a great game and i can now appreciate it for what it is) is the fact we didnt get to see ellie actually forgive joel and their relationship get better again either before joel dies or through flashbacks. That way you atleast give ur players an emotional conclusion and some closure about Joel and Ellie before killing him.
I think that's the point though at the end. Ellie was trying to forgive Joel the day before he was killed. The end of the game not only gave context but was also Ellie remembering the good times with Joel instead of the final brutal moments. The game is supposed to leave you empty but with a little glimmer of hope. The first game was the opposite: A fulfilled ending with a dark twist.
@@therealfirale ye i agree that was the point, i just feel like thats the reason people dont like it
I think you need to give people more credit than that lol.
I think that manymany people just didn't enjoy playing a game where the storyline seemed mainly preoccupied with conveying its desired didactic as heavyhandedly as possible; the delivery of the messaging was so lacking in either tact or subtlety that it was basically forced down your throat (it definitely felt as such). This desired player response, that single correct interpretation/reaction that the writers wanted the players to formulate/experience, in combination with the writers' pointed efforts to preclude the construction of personal, divergent interpretations, made it very difficult for the player to themselves interact with the story, let alone to connect with its characters (which as a result were largely robbed of any natural, sympathetic, human agency which they might've had otherwise). It seems so many times that things happen or actions are taken solely to serve the moral message or evoke one singular reaction that the writers wanted to get across and the overt manipulations by the plot to chastise the player for thinking in any other way than the moral prescribes made you feel like a child being talked down to, which was no less insulting given that the writing itself made sure to first evoke exactly that response which it would later criticise you for (although I think many with any awareness equally refused to feel that desired reaction just to spite the writers' intentions as evident in to the tactless, heavyhandedness of their plotdevices). This, in turn, made it nigh on impossible for the plot and characters to meaningfully stand on their own; instead of seeing characters acting naturally in their respective worlds you couldn't help but recognise the writers looming over their every orchestrated action, making them seem as mere puppets in service to the single simplistic moral of the story. Some of the character choices are so unsubstantiated that you can't help but cringe.
There are instances of stories where the precedence of theme/moral over the characters' individuality can work, although those do almost inevitably come across as manipulative to some extent (pointed plotbeats culminating towards that one truth that underlies all so as to incessantly highlight it) and less natural in equal proportion. One thing that the best of such stories have over TLoU2 is that the manipulation/direction is more subtle and the characters' actions retain a sense of believability (which can make for an incredibly powerful story and message by circumventing the reader's disassociation); sadly TLoU2 really struggled to make their characters act naturally (or like characters at all) in way many instances. One other struggle I think comes with the medium itself, as telling a story with a pointed core didactic in a game is more difficult; you are the one in control of the characters, so when the story forces your character to do somethijg morally abhorent (by taking control away from you) only to later in some meta-manner reprimand you for those actions, it can't help but feel borderline patronising. Then there is also the gameplay, which here exists in stark conflict with the story being told in cutscenes (leudonarrative dissonance, yadayada) insofar as to render many of said story's events as utterly ridiculous and nonsensical.
That being said, I also do see the game as a very unique and bold attempt at subversive storytelling. But, sadly, the nature of the plot and the medium makes it an unavoidably divisive experience. Some people will experience absolutely zero negative feelings from those aspects I tried to highlight, whilst others like me can't help but feel somewhat annoyed when confronted with them.
For an example of the game making characters act unnaturally, the game also really dumbed down the complicated moral implications of Joel's actions at the end of the first game (the way Joel tells Ellie what he did is designed to spark a negative emotional reaction by painting his saving Ellie as existing solely as Joel's selfish denial of Ellie's own desires and agenct; it's very frustrating that Joel not at all tries to explain the full context of the situation just to spark the story's desired divide between them).
How would the Fireflies know that this guy was literally the only guy who could possibly make a cure
I hate how they don't have Joel tell Ellie the whole truth (or at least have ellie find out later).
Like yes joel did stop them from killing her....AFTER they ambushed and knocked them both out, denied Joel the chance to see her, denied Ellie the choice to make her own decision, forced joel out at gun point with threat of death and then sent a literal small army against Joel to stop him.
Like this is what poor writing looks like. They have to manufacturer conflict between joel and ellie by leaving out vital info.
1:58:04 whats the song?
I cant believe it, just yesterday i finished your TLOU part 1 video and I loved it, And now I have a part 2, hypeee!!
Same!!
I do agree that it made no sense that when Joel and Ellie arrived at Jackson’s in part 1 they were met with guns at gunpoint and in part 2 when they meet Abby running around there outposts armed and their first thought is to invite this armed group of military aged people they don’t know back with them ⁉️
they were at the dam when met with guns and i think bandits were constantly attacking them at that point so they were on alert. Also everybody is armed in this world. Inviting them back proves the "he got comfortable over time" theory on top of the fact he said he hasn't seen a bloater in a while in the flash backs. going on patrols were the only action he can get.
Joel is a good man, or rather, he became a good man thanks to the things he learned throughout his journey with Ellie. the bond between them was so pure, and precious, neither ever said it out loud, but they really truly loved each other so much like they are really father and daughter. which is why i completely understood why Ellie was so crazy and berserk on her quest for vengeance after Joel died, it was wrong, and at the end of the game, she realized that and spared Abby, but it was a journey driven by love and grief. Joel was not a hero, the choice that he made bear tremendous consequences, and his death, as harsh as this sounds, was inevitable. cause in one story of Ellie and Joel, their are COUNTLESS other stories in this apocalyptic world, everyone has a tragedy of their own. Abby is also a great person who was consumed by hatred that in the end, cost her almost everything. but we must all learn to forgive and empathize, move on to find a new purpose, "No Matter What, You Keep Finding Something To Fight For". i think the Last of Us 2 encapsulated everything this story is about and the core of what humanity need to find our own salvation. I think the Last of Us part 2, is a Masterpiece.
There's an annoying presumption baked into LoU2 that Joel saved Ellie due to selfishness- saved someone selfishly??- and ruined humanity's chance at survival. It's one of several reasons why Joel's murder as a narrative event is purely arbitrary- foisted into the plot against the gameworld's own reality- as if by LoU2 the devs had lost their grasp on the story's complexity. As it turns out, the devs were different in LoU2, but whether intentional or no, the devs in LoU1 didn't offer the player much *played* context for why Joel makes his decision, but what you do experience throughout the game is that the Fireflies were never "good guys" or trustworthy. Firefly thugs actually knocked Joel unconscious as he tried to save Ellie from drowning, and then, what? Asked him to believe them that she's even still alive? And asked him to believe they've got a cure lined up and again ask- no, insist- that he just accept all of it. All he knew was that these violent incompetants who's first dropoff contact group was dead when they'd arrived- who very well may have been intending to kill him anyway- were declaredly going to kill Ellie. That was his situation and what he acted upon. And then there's the lack of in-game information about whether the medical operation was ever going to be a success at creating a cure- even a hint at the chances of success. It's assumed that Joel "ruined humanity's only chance for selfish reasons", but there's no proof offered in *either* game that he did, and in LoU1 it seemed the devs wanted to let the player piece that together. And in that world somewhere maybe more competent pockets of humanity existed. After all Jacksonville was clearly doing OK- even thriving- without becoming a pit of corruption (like the group that promoted Abbie). Jacksonville was humanity's great hope. It's just not established that that group of FIreflies were ever humanity's great hope, and in fact demonstrated in multiple ways that they weren't.
In audio files and notes it actually helps the player piece together whether or not the fireflies were trustworthy with a vaccine and if they could reverse engineer one ( spoiler alert ; they were incompetent) devs wouldn’t have put those notes and stuff in the game if they wanted to paint Joel as this selfish human being. Which automatically tells me that the people who made the 2nd game were different devs or they just didn’t grasp the first game completely.
@@Prospect_ I heard/read somewhere that LoU1 was created by Druckman and a partner and that the partner was willing to abandon their creative ties to LoU just to get away from Druckman. You can see in most LoU2 interviews he's got some like-thinking blond w him as his new partner. So LoU2's FU to Joel & Ellie is likely at least somewhat an FU to his former partner and that vision, elevating instead this new Ms. Hamfist as Druckman's new thing... Can't confirm that myself though
I enjoyed this video thoroughly but I have to disagree , this game is a masterpiece in my opinion, I can see why someone who is so very knowledgable in story writing etc would be able to poke holes in it narrative wise, but I feel like there was a bit of over analyzing things and just finding a reason to add them to the negatives list, coincidences happen, sometimes they aren't just lazy writing they just keep the story moving, everything that happens in the story is following a theme, they tie in every occurrence to that theme, it is a video game too so everything doesn't have to make 100 % perfect sense. Again this is my personal opinion but TLOU part 2 characters/universe/story/gameplay/world and how immersive it is and anything else that makes it what it is are amazing and its my favorite game of all time. I get why people have issues with it but nothing ive heard from others being a problem makes any difference to how I feel about this game.
It’s okay to like something with bad writing, truly. But it’s also okay to note that it has bad writing and it’s okay that it doesn’t change how you feel about it.
Joel D riders incoming
Cope as fuck lol, if your type had their way Abby being the almighty unpunishable transwomam wouldn't have been cut before launch. And you'd be praising that too, wouldn't you?
Anyone who claims that the coincidences ruin Part II but are willing to ignore the coincidences in Part I just expose that the issue is not actually the coincidences.
@@lutzaby1997 It has plenty of characters appearing at convenient times.
They also added dodging, better weapons, I think the dodge was game changing and cooler melee weapons too
I'm glad a lot of people are starting to see the flaws in the story of this game. i remember when this game came out I was so fucking excited, and I'm not going to lie, I was among those who was absolutely furious about Joel's death. It was the first game i was so hyped for that I stopped playing in the middle of. I left it for two weeks before picking it back up and give Druckman and co. a chance. I was just numb the entire game. Nothing they attempted to sell me could overturn the sin of Joel's death, especially since I couldn't give a shit about Abby or her crew. It dropped on fucking Father's day and I'm NOT kidding you, that Future Days is me and my dad's song. So I was livid.
I haven't touched it since. I really wanted to like this game. I absolutely did not have to pick it back up again and even hated the first few days of playing it again. It just felt like a story I didn't want or even need. I couldn't tell if the game was trying to be political by ascribing fascist icons to the WLF and overtly religious authoritarianism in with the seraphites? at first I figured it was trying to play at like, "The world is shit rn and two peoples think they're right when in reality they both suck and you should just care about your family" but like... that doesn't make sense cause theres no "found family" that I can care about? And I agree that Ellie's character just feels like a piece of shit, and not the same person we saw in Part 1 EVEN IF she fell out with Joel.
I feel like Ellie's story needed to be about realizing WHY Joel made his decision, to realize that she needed to think about other people and just about herself. Abby's story needed to be Ellie's. Make Ellie the person caring about Lev instead of her own "wasted life" and let her find new purpose. Abby needed to be there as a character that shows what Ellie COULD HAVE BECOME. If we had been lead to pity Abby instead of try and relate to her, I think there wouldn't have been such a massive dislike of her character.
I dunno, I have a lot of thoughts on this story. I too think it has potential, but this game was ddogshit in terms of narrative. I'm really hoping Craig Maizen knocks some sense into Druckmen for season 2 of the show, or I might have to step out after the season finale.
Ellie was a monster on her quest to find and avenge Joel, because she loves Joel and is furious about his death 1000 times more than us the players, the observers of the story, because she lives in it and Joel was her "father". she was an asshole, a cruel murderer, we are not suppose to agree with her actions, that IS EXACTLY THE POINT!
Ellie always knew Joel lied, and she even understand why, she is not an idiot, in fact she is very emotionally intelligent. she played along with Joel for years because she knew how much it means for Joel to have this second chance, a second chance to be with his daughter again. you think Ellie need to learn to care for others? did Joel cared for others? did he think about the thousands, if not millions of lives he potentially ruined by stopping the Fireflies from making a cure? Joel's choice was understandable only because WE are humans, and we have empathy, we understand each other's feelings, and we understand how much Ellie means to him. But it was still an extremely unethical and selfish act.
Abby is exactly the person that Ellie could be, IF she finds peace in her soul and forgiveness. Joel killed Abby's father, not just the father figure, her real biological father. her motivation to pursue revenge is arguably EVEN stronger than Ellie's. it just takes a bit of effort to realize that because Abby didnt have a whole 1st game for us to get to know her like Ellie have. and to put it bluntly, Abby's appearance is not as pretty looking and likable as Ellie's.
in the end, Ellie killed LITERALLY EVERYONE ABBY CARED ABOUT! but she forgave Ellie anyway and walked a way with Lev, because she founded the light, she understood the importance of forgiveness, and to find something else to fight for, a new purpose. that was exactly what Ellie needed, she was still on the path that Abby already went through in finding revenge for Joel, bit by bit she lost herself, not just physically but also in her soul.
AND FINALLY, in the last moment, she remembers the last good memory she ever had with Joel, the night when she finally confronted him for everything that happened, to finally understand eachother, and taking that first step to forgive, to empathize and to mend the bond between broken people. in the end, she let go, she forgave, she moved on, the world continues, and the Last of Mankind live on to fight for another day in search of our own salvation. THAT is what LoU2 was about.
@@billnguyen4148 My description of why I disliked this game is pretty similar to a lot of peoples, and I understand why you felt the need to explain the reasoning behind Ellie's change of character. A lot of people didn't seem to get it, which was initially my point. Her character changed, it didn't feel like her. But i KNOW she would have changed considering the fucking PTSD Joel's death would have given her. I got that. The problem was it doesn't feel intentional enough, imo, because nobody is fucking calling her out on acting different. Whether it be loudly, gently, however. She feels on edge in the beginning, she doesn't seem like herself from the get go BEFORE Joel dies. We learn retroactively its because she's now embroiled in this inner turmoil with her father figure, but the way that this story is written makes me have to jump through all sorts of structural hoops to figure that out.
I get that Abby is technically more justified in her murder of Joel, but I'm arguing that the execution did not work in her favor. just like the video is talking about. Do I care about her at the end of the game? I personally don't give a fuck and it looks like they failed to overcome that hurdle with a lot of players. They failed to draw parallels to Joel and Abby, Lev to Ellie in any meaningful capacity.
Also, to say that what I proposed is simply a lesson for Ellie to "learn to care about others" is not what i was attempting to put across. Ellie cares for others, we see that in Dina, her kid, her friends, in joel. Its LOST from her when she is plunged into this darkness after losing Joel. It consumes her care for others, as evidence of her leaving people who need her in order to get revenge. She needs a shock to her system in order to retrieve it again. She needs a purpose other than revenge, other than her immunity. Because the other is lifeless and the latter doesn't have any power anymore.
I think the forgiveness part is important too, but there are other ways to tell that story without fucking it up so badly. Did she forgive Abby because she suddenly remembered a moment with Joel from years ago? After having at least a few years to meditate on everything that's happened? I take issues with the way it's paced, the way its executed, not the concept. It doesn't seem believable to me, and it complicates things by using Abby. A clean-slate character who murders a beloved character and we have to sympathize with them WHILE telling the story of the person who wants revenge on her? Thats asking a lot.
Finding something to live for in the doom and gloom is the whole point of the series, I agree. Finding a way to keep moving on. What reason does Ellie have now? Legitimately? What is her reason? For Joel? The man's dead. For Dina? For all we know, Dina hates her guts. For their kid? That's never expressed. Tommy? Its clear theyre gonna have a rocky relationship now, if even at all. Does she have ANY of her found family left? She can't even use her guitar anymore to remind herself of all the ways she failed the people she loved. What does she have to live for? Abby, on the other hand, has Lev. Which, fine, that's great. Except the problem is I don't find their relationship understandable or believable. Is Abby a mother figure? Is she a Sister? I don't fuckin know man, she's not as established as Joel. She just had like 20 friends I didn't care about who all died.
Again. I understand WHAT the story was trying to say, and it can say it! I'd love a story like this IF it was done right. I just don't give a shit about any of the characters in the ending. TLOU 1, you felt turmoil in the end, but at least they were still alive and with each other. It left a question. How will this turmoil between the two be solved? The question I get with Ellie is... "Why the fuck is she still alive?" It's dark, but It left me depressed, not in turmoil. Not excited about a potential Part III.
I dunno, at the end of the day its just an opinion i have. I won't be playing this game again and I will have a hard time watching Season 2 on HBO if they don't figure it out.
@@matchhead89 for the record, i did not play either game, simply because i grew up not wealthy and never had a gaming console, or a decent PC until recently. so i only watched playthroughs on UA-cam and i loved both games. i have watched playthrough of Part 1 at least 3 times through out the years, and even rewatched it once more before i watched Part 2 to catch myself up with everything.
I understand an experience of a player and a watcher can be very different. to me, i view the story of the LoU as more of a movie narrative, rather than a game. you did not like the execution of the story and the pacing of it, that is fair, i have no argument over that. hell, even as a watcher i found the game tedious sometimes especially during Abby's section, and it is true that even though her story with Lev mirrored Joel and Ellie a lot, it is no where near as good as the 1st game. but maybe it is too high of an expectation to put on them cause that 1st game was nothing short but a masterpiece.
perhaps at the end of the day it just came down to the personal experiences of the viewer, cause for me and i think those who loved LoU2 found it easier to empathize with characters, especially when they are so well realized both on a writing stand point, and a technical standpoint of the game (my god, the facial animation work in this game was hauntingly realistic). since Part 1 was so fresh on my mind, Joel's death hit me like a fucking train, i sat at my desk still sobbing for half an hour even as the playthrough continues on. however because i remember vividly the ambiguity of Joel's choice in the last game, i already have an inkling on why did Abby kill him, and in a way his death was inevitable. so i guess that makes me more forgiving and open minded by the time the story force us to learn about Abby. even though again, her story is no where near as good as Joel and Ellie, but it was simply to show how much hardship and tragedies are happening everywhere, to everyone, in the cursed world of the LoU. and thats why empathy and forgiveness matters more than ever. even the little notes of survivors you find along your gameplay, telling tragic stories of those who never made it, they were all heart-breaking stories that we'll never get the whole picture of, only what was left behind, a corpse.
as for what other purposes does Ellie has, i suppose that is also left open-ended for future games to explore. but so long as we are alive, so long as we are still "Finding something else to fight for", there is still hope. the ending screen of the game shows Abby's boat arriving on a shore with a big building nearby, implying she and Lev made it to the Fireflies new location. you may have any opinion about The Fireflies as you want, but the common thing seems to be that they are a group of hopeful people still trying to find a way to end it all and cure this disease. Abby's father might be dead, the work the Fireflies have done throughout the years may have been undone all because of one man's rampage trying to save his daughter. but so long as we still holding out hope, searching for that light, just like Ellie with immunity still inside her, setting off into the unknown, but bearing no more baggage of her past, there is still hope for humanity. or at least thats how i interpreted the ending, it was bleak, but still hopeful.
i don't see how there only being one person in the world that can make a cure makes more sense. It doesn't, it's very fucking convienient for the plot especially that person being so close to them, and i always hated it.
The coincidences I think in storytelling is called “Chekhov's Gun”
Not to be believable but to benefit the storytelling. The pregnancies are symbolic to family and loss which is what this series is all about. It’s a masterpiece as video games goes. I appreciate the review though.
Not quite. Chekhov’s gun is when an unimportant element becomes important later on.
A Chekhovs gun refers to set up and pay off. Like the name implies, it is set up that there is a gun, and it is later used, which is the pay off.
A coincidence is an event happening that is not a result of logical writing, cause and effect, but it just so happens because the writers needed it to happen for their story.
16:59 honestly this is such a good point. the events leading up to joel’s death always baffled me and this is why. joel was never quick to trust anyone he didn’t know. he didn’t trust henry and sam when they first met, and now they trust abby AND follow her into their camp? come on 😭
Tlou2 is the best game ever made. Period.
That's your opinion... I see it garbage game 🗑️
I almost wanted to put the game down when two 19 year old women who have had prior relationships were talking like middle school girls over a joint while Joel was fighting for his life.
I feel like people are so afraid to say this is a amazing game because they’ll receive backlash for liking it. Is the story perfect? No but what’s wrong what a coincidence? Coincidences happen everyday in real life. It’s not that far fetched that Abby just stumbled upon Joel. The universe works like that sometimes and bad things have a way of finding bad people. I love Joel but after playing the game completely I have a different outlook on what he did and the people he hurt. Ever action has a reaction and what happened to him was a direct result of one of those actions. People are missing the bigger picture. Forget all of the characters in the game and look at what it’s trying to teach. Forgiveness and redemption. Anyone who couldn’t make it past Joel’s death can’t speak on this masterpiece.
Plus Abby was literally looking for Joel?? Like her and her squad were right outside of Jackson bc they were trying to find him? Of course she ran into him lmao
@@altheaosborn2648 lol facts!! Idk what this guy was talking about.
I myself am not understanding where this dude is coming from. I feel this whole video is more nit picky than a critique. This is a game that when summed up is a story about looking at things from both sides and realizing that both sides are not right nor wrong, it’s just people trying to survive in a world that is unforgiving.
@@mattmiltenberger145 I agree 100 percent. You worded that perfectly.
@@mattmiltenberger145 It's actually one of my least favorite games of all time. It's like they had a storyboard full of ideas and directions they could take the plot and instead of settling on a few good plot points they just throw everything in there at once. It's a mess. It's not long enough to flush out every story idea but at the same time it's way too long for the type of game it is. The combat and sneaking around killing the exact same enemies over and over just gets really old after a while.
Ngl, I didn’t know the sniper was Tommy😅
I gotta say, this video and your one covering Part 1 have been on repeat for me when I'm working. Your humour is hilarious and you have a lot of good insights, and the jump in quality from the first one is very evident! Very excited to see what you do from here, and you got my sub! Also, as a gay woman, I just wanted to say thank you for mentioning the bit about Ellie's sexuality. I thought it was so nicely incorporated, and it treats her just like she's a person who happens to be gay, not as a person who's personality is focused around being gay. I don't speak for everyone in the LGBT community, but most people I've talked to all feel equally that when a character is vapid and one note and that note is that they're gay, it just comes across as a corporate decision to have someone for representation and is sometimes just insulting. Here's hoping more devs continue to do their LGBT characters justice.
I will say for myself that Part II is and will always be a grotesque failure in every possible way. There is nothing that can convince me otherwise. It was absolutely wrong and to me will always be wrong.
RDR2 would have been so much better if right after Micah tells young Jack he killed the dog of the gant, you could play as Micah so that way you could understand why Micah is who Micah is. So when he kills Arthur at the end, you dont feel so bad about Arthur being killed by Micah.
Two different stories with different characters. This is like criticizing No Country for Old Men for not being like typical White Hat defests Black Hat western or something.
I think the quick/unexpected nature of Jesse’s death is the point. It’s not only (imo) realistic, but it also reminds you nobody is safe, heightening the stakes, without taken someone SUPER important (again, lol). Didn’t strike me as bad writing in and of itself. Although, I think you could def argue the game would have been better with more Jesse time and less endless Lev rescuing.
TLOU Part II is in my top 5 games of all time, I like it even more than the masterpiece original. That being said this is a great video, while I vehemently disagree with a lot of what you have to say, your points are interesting and well presented. I think when critiquing this game, both sides tend to oversimplify or dumb down the issues or positives, but you really gave this game a fair shot, even if it fell short for you, and that's really respectable.
My thoughts exactly.
If you lie I'm gone (physically)
If you tell the truth I'm gone (emotionally)
What a game you are TLOU2
the criticism about coincidences and pacing are mostly subjective and fair, the others are hard to take seriously and don't hold under scrutiny.
the "it's stupid" criticism always falls flat because humans do stupid shit on a daily basis. the idea that characters in fiction are impervious to this human fault is nonsensical.
the same is true of the "this didn't make sense for their character" criticism. you don't know what makes sense of Tommy's character within the context of the game because it's the first time we've ever seen the character deal with death, particularly death of his sibling. you just struggle to accept his actions and write it off as nonsensical when it's anything but.
the Abby/Lev criticism is, ironically, nonsensical because you assume it was intended as a way of mirroring Joel and Ellie's relationship when there's nowhere in the game that implies that, and it is absolutely possible for two people to grow that close in a matter of days. a plethora of people in the real world can attest to that. this is only made further possible when two people are dealing with trauma.
overall a half-decent attempt at a critique video, but i think it falls on the cleverly disguised hate-bait side of the fence ultimately. this is further cemented by the statement "me coming out and saying this game is bad should speak volumes" as if you have some great authority in this area. just curious; who are you? to me, you're a random guy on UA-cam giving his opinion so i'm sorry, but it doesn't speak volumes.
lastly, the game is by definition a masterpiece, regardless of how you personally feel about it. it released to critical acclaim, leading to it breaking the record for most GOTY awards, as well as receiving an award for Innovation in Accessibility; it is widely revered within the industry, for its game direction, narrative, and audio design. that doesn't happen to good games, it happens to masterful games. the fact it is such a controversial work of art that is praised by many and held in such high regard is a testament to that mastery.
Totally understandable, I guess we just have differing opinions which is normal :)
To me even the coincidences thing is weird. They were on patrol and happened to run into each other (near the ski lodge which seems to be the place Tommy and Joel like to hunker down from the second flashback)... yeah and in all of Pittsburgh Ellie and Joel happened to climb in through the window to meet Henry and Sam. It is subjective so it's fine if it bugs people, but it definitely shouldn't be an indictment on the writing.
@@Fall__Forward if a coincidence kills off a main character, it’s a writing error. I was taught that in university.
@@ImGardenGnome That is beyond subjective. There is no objective ruling on coincidences in storytelling, the only thing that is established is that you must be careful with them (and typically good things shouldn't come from coincidences)
Plus, again, it is established in flashback that Joel and Tommy hang out around the area while on patrol. It is entirely reasonable to believe they would be nearby
@@Fall__Forward you have good points. “Writing error” was prolly the wrong words to say. More like frowned upon. You can succeed, sure. But it’s incredibly hard. If you fail, you a chance of dividing a fan base. Just like Part 2 did. Hopefully I didn’t sound like a douche in my previous reply😂. Just wanted to have a friendly discussion. :)
There’s a lot of things you didn’t pick up on which was quite frustrating, but hey to each their own! I think next time you gotta go in with a clear view instead of letting annoyance cloud your view lol
ESPECIALLY Ellie struggling on the farm and you not understanding why she’d go back for revenge
The feelings of revenge consumed Tommy the same way they did Ellie, that's what makes it so defeating. You root for Ellie to pursue her anger, but then seeing what it did to Tommy is such a slap in the face. I hated what happened to Tommy, but that's what makes the story so potent. Not poorly written in my opinion. Definitely right about the pacing being inconsistent, and a lot of coincidences to connect a much larger, messier plot. I still think the character writing and development in Part II makes Part I look mid in comparison, and Part I is through and through a masterpiece. Part I made me sad and hopeful, Part II just broke me, Part III has the potential to be so much. Santa Barbara's chained-up infected could allude to Part III involving Ellie traversing the country with a reborn, infected Joel that she walks around like a dog on a leash. Or maybe Ellie just gets a dog, and names it Joel.
Honestly, I think alot of the controversy in this game didn't even have much to do with the game itself. Alot of it had to do with Visceral responses to genuine criticism of the game. when it first came out i read reviews to see if it was worth it, and the responses to the reviews were mind blowing. Due to the fact Ellie and Lev are LGBTQ, there seemed to be a ZERO tolerance policy on any criticism even if none of it had to do with Lev being trans or Ellies sexual preference. There was alot of criticism of Ellie of course most of it was the same as yours in the video here. But the comments i seen on these reviews attacking people calling them Transphobic/homophobic for even the smallest critique was very off putting to alot of people and im sure did more harm than good and turned alot of people away from playing it.
True. I truly don’t care about the woke argument, I think culture wars is a right-wing construct to get you engaged because they have nothing else to offer you. Yet, I was pulled into culture wars when my opinion of watching this steroids-enhanced woman in this setting was immersion-breaking and gave me Chris Redfield Resident Evil 5 vibes.
@@HarryPujols well, I mean if you want to go see part of the problem, apparently all you have to do is go look in the mirror. The fact you make this a Left/Right wing issue. Neither side has anything to offer while blaming the other side as such. Any rational thinking human person does not care for politics in video games, most of us play them to get away from politics.
too good of a retrospect tbh, you produce amazing quality in your videos, gs
I just really wanted to say thank you for this video.
I have a complicated relationship with The Last of Us Part 2, it has taught me that hate is truly a toxic thing and that focusing so much on things you hate makes you miss out on really good things (If it wasn't for The Last of Us Part 2, I would have been completely caught up on FFXIV, and would have gotten to experience the 5.3 patch alongside everyone when it first came out, it was so good it genuinely gave me depression that I was so hateful that I missed out on an once in a life time experience.)
Then after a year or two after I left it behind, I watched videos saying "Last of Us Part 2 is good actually" because I'm an artist and draw to these kinds of videos.
Because I wasn't willing to go back into it unless I can actually gain something from it (I'm VERY careful with consuming media I hate now: I don't want to be the kind of person who endlessly complains about things because I was that person once and I was TRULY miserable when I did that when I could have been focusing on what I love)
and because I wasn't really willing to go back into it because I don't want to be consumed by my hatred of it again, I always questioned if it was ME that was the problem cause I kept going "But it's a horrible story that was told very very poorly." whenever people were saying "Well that's the POINT." in response to things like the story suddenly cutting to Abby, that the writers really wanted you to hate her so they can make you love her.
Watching this video made me realize: Yeah, maybe those were the point, and maybe that was the writer's intentions: But it doesn't matter. What matters was the execution of getting that point across and it failed.
So thank you very much for that, I care a LOT about story telling and how they're told. So it means so much to hear you actually praise the game when it deserves it but also reprimand it and not hold back when it fails since you're a die hard fan. I know it's hard, but congrats on doing it.
This guy doesn't stop himself from plucking on the weak strings of the OBJECTIVE story yea (I definitely got my issues with it) still I believe this guy is just as much plucking at some SUBJECTIVE issues (his unbalanced combat stance, along with his issue of coincidence) and his own personal perspective on how TLOU should feel/be written shows a level of being unable to see through the eyes of the actual games setting but instead through HIS perception of the games setting. (which isn't a problem at all, but it is unaddressed in the video, leading to moments where he speaks as the authority on whether a subject fits TLOU period) I've been replaying the game and after combing thru videos, personal discussions, and director discussions I've come to feel that the story isn't perfect but not bad BUT instead pretty DECENT as well as pretty ROUGH........I recommend playing again if possible cause I have NO complaints on gameplay tho 💀
I started watching reviews of the game's plot and reading comments saying that the game was a masterpiece. But I didn't think so, because there are obvious problems in the plot. But more and more people called the game a "masterpiece", and I began to think that I probably did not understand all the splendor of the game. But then I realize that some people evaluate the game because of the emotions they have experienced and because of the message in the game. But no one pays attention to the fact that the plot itself has problems, despite the message. Then I started looking at the comments and found a lot of people who expressed the shortcomings of the game. And then I realized that everything was fine with me, that I was not the only one who thought that the game was not a "masterpiece". The game is not a masterpiece,but also not the most terrible
been waiting on this video. another well written video and bring an unbiased perspective which is something that a lot of people couldn't do through the first play through. excited to see you blow up
Thanks homie 🔥
I stand by the main issue taken with TLoU2 is how the game pushes the player to have a sympathetic view towards Abby.
This isn't saying her motivations don't make any sense or that even the overall message about how revenge only leads to more pain and you need to move on and not let the past define you ect ect.
But game 1 goes out of its way to give the player evidence to support Joel's decision. Not even from an emotional POV either, tho we all can see that.
The game goes out of its way to make you NOT trust the FFs. From their sheer terrorist actions lol to the end when they ambush, knock out and kidnap both Ellie and Joel only to find out who they actually are and STILL hold Ellie against her will and try to force Joel to leave her for dead cus THEY DECIDED THEY WERE GONNA KILL AN INNOCENT 11 YEAR OLD WITHOUT EVEN SPEAKING TO HER.
And that's just the moral side, the game ALSO goes out of its way to make the FFs seem incompetent. A. They have the ONLY IMMUNE PERSON and within HOURS resort to life ending surgery HOPING that this cure might work. No other tests, nothing. Idiotic. And B. Again the game goes out of its way to give you the info that, oh that surgeon who's gonna save the world? Well guess what? He actually was never a surgeon. He had a bachelor's degree in biology before the break out. Not a medical doctor and CERTAINLY NOT a practicing surgeon. And we the player are supposed to see all this and be like "yup, these are the people who are super trustworthy and are gonna save the world!" Lmao
THIS is the main issue. Have Abby kill Joel. Have Ellie go on her revenge rampage. But then have them BOTH learn the WHOLE truth. Have Abby realize she's made a mistake and trusted her Dad, who ended up doing a horrible thing and have Ellie come to the conclusion that she trusted Joel (her 'dad') and he also fucked up and lied to her and now they are bothe fighting battles they didn't even start. Both learn to let the past go, forgive and forget and not let their past or their families define who they are.
They both almost loose there humanity, but in the end come back.
That is a much more compelling story and shows the player, yeah Abby was wrong for what she did but she learned that too.
Actions have consequences. Abby's dad got his, Joel got his. But they don't have to fight the battles their fathers started