I have a question for you: The Wanghu text on DB is not the Goat format text, it got multiplie erratas over the years. In fact, it used to not say "this card needs to be face-up on the field to activate and resolve this effect". If Wanghu is f/u on the field and I summon Tsukuyomi, the mandatory trigger of Tsukuyomi is CL1 and Wanghu's trigger effect is CL 2. On Chain Link 3, I activate Book of Moon, targetting Wanghu. With the current errata, if Book targets Wanghu and resolves successfully, Wanghu will not resolve properly and Tsukuyomi will stay f/u on the field. Do you know how this interaction plays out with the correct (2005) errata for Wanghu? EDIT: I originally misstated the scenario as Tsukuyomi's effect being optional and thus CL2. I added in the Book of Moon part so that the scenario stays basically the same.
I'm kinda confused by the Sacred Crane ruling (same for Lava Golem and Molten Zombie). If it refers to "the controller" would it resolve correctly if Crane left the field? If it draws for the controller of "this card" would it fizzle if Crane was flipped face-down (so that "this card" ceases to exist)? Are we sure this is was not just a gigantic oversight from UDE and Konami? If I recall correctly during Goat Format both Sasuke Samurai #4 and Mask of Restrict had a text that didn't describe correctly what they did both in the TCG and in the OCG. Anyway Sacred Crane never got an errata in the OCG. Maybe by asking Konami we can learn how it is actually supposed to work, idk.
Mask of Restrict and Sasuke Samurai #4 had no issues in any version of their text. They were always pretty crystal clear about what those cards did. A time traveler to 2005 would likely get some pretty inconsistent rulings from judges about what "controller" meant in Crane's text, particularly with regards to it leaving the field. The term "controller" was not well-understood yet, and Sacred Crane saw virtually no competitive play at this time. However, it is most likely that "controller" would be understood to mean the same thing as "possess" in today's game: yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Possess. Note that I do "possess" a card if it is in my graveyard.
@@GoatDuels During Goat Format Mask of restrict only prevented tributing monsters, in theory, but one of the individual rulings of Kiryu says that you cannot tribute anything at all. Sasuke Samurai #4, in theory, activates before damage calculation (sub-step 3), but his individual rulings make clear that it actually activates at the start of the damage step (sub-step 1). Their card text is everything but crystal clear. I didn't think about the possession vs control thing, but that only solves half of the problem: if a monster is flipped face-down, it immediately ceases to be "this card" and becomes just "a card". One individual ruling of Levia-Dragon - Daedalus makes this very clear. I still don't get how it should be ruled if Crane is flipped face-down by Book of Moon, hope you can explain this to me, I'm kinda confused.
In goat format, Mask of Restrict said that monsters could not be tributed "under any conditions." This text makes it very clear about what it does. You're right that SS#4 could've been worded better though. Edit: Nevermind, I see what you mean about Mask of Restrict regarding monsters vs spells/traps. Cards that say "this card in your possession" do activate and resolve correctly when they are flipped face down. I see no reason why Sacred Crane would be any exception. Additionally, UDE generally ruled that cards could recognize themselves while face-down, e.g.: Judgment Dragon vs Book of Moon.
All the cards that say "this card in your possession", to my knowledge, say something like "when this card in your possession is sent to the GY" or "when this card in your possession is destroyed by an opponent's card", so I don't think they are that relevant for the discussion on how Sacred Crane works, since they are extremely different. Talking about cards like "Judgment Dragon", "Demise King of Armageddon" and "Levia-Dragon - Daedalus", in 2009 their rulings were, respectively: If an effect is chained that flips "Judgment Dragon" face-down, it is not destroyed by its effect. If an effect is chained to “Demise's” effect to flip “Demise, King of Armageddon” face-down, he is still not destroyed by his effect. If an effect is chained to "Levia-Dragon - Daedalus" effect to flip "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" face-down, it is still not destroyed by its effect. But Goat Format is a 2005 format, and only Levia-Dragon Daedalus had been printed to that point, and its individual rulings were diametrically opposed to those of 2009: When "Book of Moon" is chained to "Levia-Dragon Daedalus"' effect to flip it face-down, the effect still resolves, but "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" is destroyed by its own effect, since it's no longer "this card", it's just "a card". In November 2006 rulings were already changed, but in 2005, apparently, Book of Moon made cards forget which card was "this card".
There are cards that check for possession without anything needing to be sent anywhere, such as Gorz. My best understanding is that Sacred Crane checks for possession at resolution, even though in 2005 the technical term "possession" did not exist yet. This interpretation would best fit the card's 2005 text and along with the long-held understanding that it could resolve in the graveyard. Of course, you have the right to disagree.
At 2:55, when snatch is destroyed by dust cl2, does control switch back midchain or after cl1 resolves? Came up recently in this scenario: Opponent has a snatched monster of mine. I ring it cl1, he books it cl2, I chain dust on snatch cl3. Whose facedown monster is it?
Continuous and Continuous-like effects get applied between chain links. So, in your example: - CL3 Dust Tornado destroys Snatch Steal - Between Chain Links the monster returns to your side of the field since Snatch Steal continuous-like effect isn't applied anymore - CL2 the monster gets booked on your side of the field - CL1 Ring fizzles
It's not about how fast it is. It's Spell Speed 2, but that's not the most relevant part here. When Sacred Crane is Summoned, its Trigger Effect is activated. HOWEVER, the opposing player still gets a chance to chain to the Trigger Effect BEFORE it resolves. Therefore, Enemy Controller can be Chain Link 2 and Sacred Crane effect is Chain Link 1. Chains resolve backwards. When Enemy Controller resolves, control is switched. Then Crane effect resolves. Crane is now controlled by the opposing player and they get to draw a card instead of Crane's owner. You have to know how chains work in Yugioh. It's fundamental to the game, including this format. An easy way to think about chains in the simplest sense is that it's the only way negate cards can even function properly. How can you negate certain effects or cards that have historically been able to be negated if effects immediately resolve?
![REASONING GATE DECK PROFILE + TEST HANDS [GOAT FORMAT]](/img/n.gif)
Wow this is really clever, love the King Tiger Wanghu one
Yo can you stop dropping these insane vids 🔥🔥🔥 loving them bro !
I knew 2/3! The Crane one I never in my life would have discovered myself though
I have a question for you: The Wanghu text on DB is not the Goat format text, it got multiplie erratas over the years. In fact, it used to not say "this card needs to be face-up on the field to activate and resolve this effect".
If Wanghu is f/u on the field and I summon Tsukuyomi, the mandatory trigger of Tsukuyomi is CL1 and Wanghu's trigger effect is CL 2. On Chain Link 3, I activate Book of Moon, targetting Wanghu.
With the current errata, if Book targets Wanghu and resolves successfully, Wanghu will not resolve properly and Tsukuyomi will stay f/u on the field.
Do you know how this interaction plays out with the correct (2005) errata for Wanghu?
EDIT: I originally misstated the scenario as Tsukuyomi's effect being optional and thus CL2. I added in the Book of Moon part so that the scenario stays basically the same.
Ik its long ago but tsuk is also mandatory. So tsuk cl 1 wanghu cl2. Idk if wangu needs to be face up to resolve his eff tho
I'm kinda confused by the Sacred Crane ruling (same for Lava Golem and Molten Zombie).
If it refers to "the controller" would it resolve correctly if Crane left the field?
If it draws for the controller of "this card" would it fizzle if Crane was flipped face-down (so that "this card" ceases to exist)?
Are we sure this is was not just a gigantic oversight from UDE and Konami? If I recall correctly during Goat Format both Sasuke Samurai #4 and Mask of Restrict had a text that didn't describe correctly what they did both in the TCG and in the OCG.
Anyway Sacred Crane never got an errata in the OCG. Maybe by asking Konami we can learn how it is actually supposed to work, idk.
Mask of Restrict and Sasuke Samurai #4 had no issues in any version of their text. They were always pretty crystal clear about what those cards did.
A time traveler to 2005 would likely get some pretty inconsistent rulings from judges about what "controller" meant in Crane's text, particularly with regards to it leaving the field. The term "controller" was not well-understood yet, and Sacred Crane saw virtually no competitive play at this time. However, it is most likely that "controller" would be understood to mean the same thing as "possess" in today's game: yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Possess. Note that I do "possess" a card if it is in my graveyard.
@@GoatDuels During Goat Format Mask of restrict only prevented tributing monsters, in theory, but one of the individual rulings of Kiryu says that you cannot tribute anything at all.
Sasuke Samurai #4, in theory, activates before damage calculation (sub-step 3), but his individual rulings make clear that it actually activates at the start of the damage step (sub-step 1).
Their card text is everything but crystal clear.
I didn't think about the possession vs control thing, but that only solves half of the problem: if a monster is flipped face-down, it immediately ceases to be "this card" and becomes just "a card". One individual ruling of Levia-Dragon - Daedalus makes this very clear.
I still don't get how it should be ruled if Crane is flipped face-down by Book of Moon, hope you can explain this to me, I'm kinda confused.
In goat format, Mask of Restrict said that monsters could not be tributed "under any conditions." This text makes it very clear about what it does. You're right that SS#4 could've been worded better though.
Edit: Nevermind, I see what you mean about Mask of Restrict regarding monsters vs spells/traps.
Cards that say "this card in your possession" do activate and resolve correctly when they are flipped face down. I see no reason why Sacred Crane would be any exception. Additionally, UDE generally ruled that cards could recognize themselves while face-down, e.g.: Judgment Dragon vs Book of Moon.
All the cards that say "this card in your possession", to my knowledge, say something like "when this card in your possession is sent to the GY" or "when this card in your possession is destroyed by an opponent's card", so I don't think they are that relevant for the discussion on how Sacred Crane works, since they are extremely different.
Talking about cards like "Judgment Dragon", "Demise King of Armageddon" and "Levia-Dragon - Daedalus", in 2009 their rulings were, respectively:
If an effect is chained that flips "Judgment Dragon" face-down, it is not destroyed by its effect.
If an effect is chained to “Demise's” effect to flip “Demise, King of Armageddon” face-down, he is still not destroyed by his effect.
If an effect is chained to "Levia-Dragon - Daedalus" effect to flip "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" face-down, it is still not destroyed by its effect.
But Goat Format is a 2005 format, and only Levia-Dragon Daedalus had been printed to that point, and its individual rulings were diametrically opposed to those of 2009:
When "Book of Moon" is chained to "Levia-Dragon Daedalus"' effect to flip it face-down, the effect still resolves, but "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" is destroyed by its own effect, since it's no longer "this card", it's just "a card".
In November 2006 rulings were already changed, but in 2005, apparently, Book of Moon made cards forget which card was "this card".
There are cards that check for possession without anything needing to be sent anywhere, such as Gorz. My best understanding is that Sacred Crane checks for possession at resolution, even though in 2005 the technical term "possession" did not exist yet. This interpretation would best fit the card's 2005 text and along with the long-held understanding that it could resolve in the graveyard. Of course, you have the right to disagree.
Any tips on incorporating zaborg+return into an angel chaos like build with goats and meta?
I would love to see more videos like this!
At 2:55, when snatch is destroyed by dust cl2, does control switch back midchain or after cl1 resolves?
Came up recently in this scenario: Opponent has a snatched monster of mine. I ring it cl1, he books it cl2, I chain dust on snatch cl3. Whose facedown monster is it?
Continuous and Continuous-like effects get applied between chain links.
So, in your example:
- CL3 Dust Tornado destroys Snatch Steal
- Between Chain Links the monster returns to your side of the field since Snatch Steal continuous-like effect isn't applied anymore
- CL2 the monster gets booked on your side of the field
- CL1 Ring fizzles
@@kavu8919 'Preciate it!
How is Enemy Controller fast enough to steal Crane before the effect goes off? Why wouldn’t Crane trigger as soon as it hits the field?
It's not about how fast it is. It's Spell Speed 2, but that's not the most relevant part here.
When Sacred Crane is Summoned, its Trigger Effect is activated. HOWEVER, the opposing player still gets a chance to chain to the Trigger Effect BEFORE it resolves. Therefore, Enemy Controller can be Chain Link 2 and Sacred Crane effect is Chain Link 1. Chains resolve backwards. When Enemy Controller resolves, control is switched. Then Crane effect resolves. Crane is now controlled by the opposing player and they get to draw a card instead of Crane's owner.
You have to know how chains work in Yugioh. It's fundamental to the game, including this format. An easy way to think about chains in the simplest sense is that it's the only way negate cards can even function properly. How can you negate certain effects or cards that have historically been able to be negated if effects immediately resolve?
Really good. Thanks for those tips!
Does anyone have some ideas for a deck with Last Will?
cat otk
Cat/Stein OTK
Nice one. What's your alias on the discord ?
Thank you
Doesn't enemy controller make sacred crane miss its timing, so no-one draws a card?
No, mandatory trigger effects never miss timing.
@@GoatDuels Right, I get it now.
Even if it could miss timing, responding to an activated effect does/can not have it miss timing. That's not what those words mean in Yu-Gi-Oh!.