Vinyl vs Alcohol - Cleaning your vinyl - New Research!
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- Опубліковано 22 чер 2024
- New Research! Paul Rigby looks at the very nature of vinyl, how alcohol affects it during cleaning and offers advice on how to use it during vinyl cleaning. This is the first in a (long?) series of vinyl cleaning videos.
THE VINYL WALL
Wondered what the vinyl is sitting on the shelves behind me? Here's a list in full. I've included links in case you'd like to purchase too. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Thank you.
Bing Crosby - Twilight on the Trail
UK - amzn.to/2o9Qbpi
USA - amzn.to/33SCZEz
Sonic Youth - Goo
UK - amzn.to/33XgqP7
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iTunes: apple.co/31I8Q9k
Johnny Cash - The Rambler
UK - amzn.to/32HSUoT
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iTunes: apple.co/31JZjP3
Ella Fitzgerald - Hello, Dolly
UK - amzn.to/2o7jitk
USA - amzn.to/2Pgbz7t
apple.co/2N4jtOA
Kate Bush - On Stage
UK - amzn.to/2qBDHrn
USA - amzn.to/2Pj81BD - Наука та технологія
i dont know...the more alcohol i drink, the better my music sounds
That I can sign, sir!
I love this comment
Yes. However, I've Shazam'd way too many songs & wondered what I was thinking after going back to review them once sober
Then it should be the best choice! 🍻🍻🍻
😂😂😂..so true!
There a quite a number of formulations for vinyl production for record purposes. Most consist of 2 parts PVA to 1 part PVC with added colorants and stabilizers.
A basic formulation would be as follows:
- 2 parts PVA (copolymer)
- 1 part PVC(monopolymer)
- Heat Stabilizer (metal salts/ fatty acids/ metal soaps/ release agents)
- Lubricant (natural or synthetic wax -promotes flow during pressing/ works as release agent from stamper/ reduces stylus friction during playback)
- Colorant (carbon for black, titanium oxide for white, colored resin powders for other colors - however, carbon has the lowest static charge)
- Fillers (non virgin vinyl often adds recycled vinyl to the formulation)
- Plasticizer (improves moldability and flexability and makes the final product more resistant to breakage)
- Conditioner (quaternary ammonium salts and surfactants - for controlling static charge, lowering surface friction during playback, lowers potential mold development on records stored for long periods of time.
Most formulations contain 4 or more of the above , and may affect the final quality and sound of the vinyl after pressing.
Cleaning:
- Steam - could potentially melt lubricants in the formulation, increasing surface noise
- Soap based formula - could potentially disturb or destabilize fillers, plasticizers and conditioners, resulting in added static, extra friction during playback, higher surface noise and increased groove wearout
- Alcohol - could dissolve lubricants, colorants, fillers, plastisizers and conditioners
As always it's best to use a balanced cleaning solution made up of minimal parts of alcohol and soap. And try avoid steam cleaning on older records that generally have a higher wax content.
My go to cleaning solutions are:
- MoFi One Cleaning Solution (for newer records or just a quick clean)
- MoFi Super Record Wash (for dusty, older or second hand records)
- MoFi Pure Record Rinse (I use this after Super Record Wash to neutralize any active cleaning solution)
With the above products I've experiences minimal static, and very low wear and surface noise on my records.
Hope this helps for those who are interested.
Great video. For those with limited time I can summarize: No one knows, not even the vinyl manufacturers, what to use to clean a vinyl recording. The instruction begins at 14:12
Hi Staffo Tex - that's very kind of you to say. That said, I must stop you there :) I'm not saying, "No one knows, not even the vinyl manufacturers, what to use to clean a vinyl" - not in this video. What I'm saying is that no-one knows what effect *alcohol* has on vinyl, because of the complex chemical recipes that are used on the world's vinyl production. Hence, I advocate alcohol use - but caution too. I DO know how to clean vinyl and I'm going to be sharing that information over several videos in the future. Several because it depends on what tech you use, etc. Also because I don't advocate JUST using alcohol. You need more than that.
Thank you, that saves a lot of time!!
Hi Paul. I recieve your newsletter am a member of your Facebook group and i just recently realized that you are the person behind those projects. I'm glad i found your channel. Thank you for this information.It sheds a whole new light on all of the videos i have watched on this subject.As you said,with everyone saying their way is the right way,i have been so confused that i havent cleaned my records at all.
Thanks for you thoughts Progressive Guy and thanks for finding me! I intend to produce a lot more vinyl cleaning videos to provide a wide-ranging and thorough guide. All under one banner, as it where. I hope it will be of use. This is just Part 1.
I worked 27 yrs at Dow Chemical Company. I worked in a water treatment lab. One of our buildings make polyvinyl for records. In our sonic cleaners, we use distilled water and that is it. Sometime we would add heat. I don't add any alcohol when cleaning records. A disfactant and a mild soap. I do make a spray solution with about 5% alcohol. I see people use scubbing bubbles which is a caustic solution... not good. I enjoyed your vlog. Bill
Thanks for sharing your cleaning regime with us, Bill. Intriguing stuff.
Always a joy to listen too, the researced information is an added bonus! Thank you sir! 🙂
Love that Sonic Youth!
I've been watching your videos and am enjoying your concise analytical views and your humor and I want to thank you Paul for your offerings. Keep the music alive.
Very kind of you, David - thank you.
Hi Paul, an interesting video thank you. You were kind enough to offer some advice to me a year or so ago on some issues I was having with the Audio Desk ultrasonic cleaner (re: very old and dirty records). I really appreciated your thoughtful comments. Looking forward to future instalments. Keep going.
Thanks for your kind words, Jon. And thanks for watching!
Brilliant and informative vid!
Shirley Sherlock very nice of you to say, thank you.
Super video as always. don’t know if its just me, but I could listen to Paul talk all day on anything from vinyl cleaning to the growth rate of southern magnolia trees.
Absolutely detailed and enjoyable discourse. Can hear it for hours on end. Super
Wow! Amazing video mate.
Love the depth. It's really cool you do your own experiments, using 1% alcohol bath to clean mine now
Hi so you use 1% alcohol not mixed with water? Thanks!
Very logical and informative explanation. Thanks.
And thank you too.
Hi Paul, Isopropyl alcohol is a very good broad-spectrum solvent, however its effectiveness is greatly diminished by dilution. If you were to attempt to clean a greasy frying pan in the sink with a .05% alcohol solution you would find that the alcohol in the solution would be overwhelmed by the amount of grease to be solublized. However a few drops of dish detergent would cut through the grease quickly. This is why most professional record cleaning formulas made today contain a surfactant. A cleaning solution that contains .2% chemistry grade surfacent will often be more effective than an alcohol solution at 50% and much cheaper to produce. Contrary to popular belief an alcohol solution of less than 60% is safe to use on vinyl records and will not leach out the plasticizers in the compound unless the contact time is very long, as measured in hours or days. There are viable reasons for using alcohol in a record cleaning formula. Some high Purity chemical grade surfactants that are designed to solublize oils, fatty acids, tend to be difficult to mix well into an aqueous solution and will often form a clump that will take time to fully disperse. If it's mixed into a little alcohol first it will much more rapidly dissolve in evenly disperse within the solution. There is also the matter of preservation, shelf life, some non alcoholic record Cleaning Solutions tend to grow mold overtime. The alcohol content in the solution can greatly limit bacterial and fungi growth which can chemically break down the surfactant rendering it ineffective.
Judy Opfell Hi Judy, I’m not sure that your dirty dishes metaphor is wholly applicable :) Also, your getting a bit ahead of me. I did state at the beginning of the video that it is an add on to other forthcoming cleaning videos. I did this specific piece because it prevents me repeating myself in later videos. One of those will be an in depth piece on surfactants. I hope you’ll like it. Finally, as I say in the video, the complexity of vinyl means that we know little about cause and effect. Take your plasticiser example. The largest vinyl pellet manufacturer in the UK hasn’t used a plasticiser in many years. Others have never used it. A lot of current ‘informed’ knowledge is mere hearsay and supposition I’m afraid.
Hi Paul, The dirty dish metaphor was merely intended to illustrate the ineffectiveness of a dilute alcohol solution as compared to using a surfactant. It's difficult for me to understand why a .5% alcohol solution would offer any significant sonic improvement over pure H2O. When the first Keith Monks machine was introduced in the mid-70s they used a 50% methanol solution which was later changed to a 25% isopropyl solution due to the toxicity of methanol and the fear that alcohol may damage the vinyl. They now use non-toxic plant-based "Botanical" surfactants with no alcohol, presumably to minimize the stripping away plasticizers, stabilizers and mold release agents, which provide some lubrication to the stylus-groove interface. While I agree that the exact formulations of vinyl compound used today are proprietary, the formulations of the past are fairly well known. Plasticizers we're mainly used to control the flow rate of the vinyl in the heated press and surely there must be a modern equivalent used today, although it may not be the soybean oil that was used prior to the 1980s. Although there are clearly unknowns when trying to assess the composition of a single record I don't believe that it is as complicated or diverse as you make it out to be. in addition the idea that the pressure applied by the hydraulic press melts the vinyl and that the pressing plant stocks six different types of vinyl to compensate for pressure loss due to malfunction seems quite inaccurate.
No worries if my research and conclusions over these videos are not to your satisfaction, these things happen and that’s part of the joy of the hobby. We all hold varying views and opinions. I always recommend that readers seek out a critic who is more sympathetic to their own views, approach and requirements. Maybe I’m just not the critic for you.
The Audiophile Man 0:;
Thanks, very enlightening. To be honest, I was hoping for a quick endorsement of some on-the-market, across the board cleaning product. But I hear what you're saying, so I'm looking forward to following the thread.
Hi Paul
Very informative.
I admire your enthusiasm and endeavour. 👍🏼
Very nice of you, thank you.
Returned to vinyl after being in the CD wilderness for the past 30 odd years. I found this interesting and informative….will check out others on this series.….thank you 👍
Now you can be with both
I commend you on the excellent job you've done with this, you've taught me things I never knew before and will make listening to music even more enjoyable, I just purchased the Knosti, the Triton X 100 and a 3 pad bundle from Groovewasher, along with a dedicated belt drive turntable for cleaning, I plan on using the stylus to further clean out the grooves of gunk before the record gets another bathe in the Knosti. thank you for all your dedicated work and especially all the instructions on your site, brilliant ! 🎷🎹🎸🎶
Great video. Thank you 👍
Thank you, Paul Rigby, Audiophile Man, U make plenty of SENSE. Thank u very much. Great Stuff, I never understood the chemical compositions of vinyl records. Thank U for the wonderful research & knowledge. Bravo.
Amidst this cleaning war I've been wondering over the past few years, 'why do we not just ask the vinyl companies what to use for cleaning our gems that they've created and supplied us? Is it because we enjoy the tension of a good argument?'. Now, thanks to this one video, I know and understand. Thank you!
I think "war" might be over-cooking things a little :) And the answer is: because most of them don't have a clue, that's why. They're in the game to sell product and promote their music. They're often not tech savvy. They offer the basics (you may be familiar with general user notes on the rear of may a vintage LP, for example) but that's it. Even those who do have a clue are limited in their knowledge. I recently asked producers of the raw material vinyl pellets several techie questions for 'cleaning' research I was doing and they admitted ignorance to some of the issues I presented to them - as I think I mentioned in this video.
@@TheAudiophileMan Oh, I get it. I was just saying 'here's where I was until this video'. In my overcooked way HAHA :)
They want them to wear out so you have to buy another copy, ha ha.
When can we expect the new cleaning video? It’s been awhile and I’m very intrigued!
Great question, thanks for asking and you're right to hassle me. In short? I've been delayed. And delayed some more. But I'm getting there. First up is to put the Surfactant video back on the channel did you ever see that one?). Working on that right now. It's been updated and enlarged. Getting a Disco Antistatic manual cleaner in for a retrospective review. In addition, I'm also getting the new Mk.II in as well. I have a feeling they will review well (but we'll see, eh?). If I'm right, then I'll have the research done and the tools in place and I can sort the final cleaning guides. There'll be 3 in total: manual, RCM and ultrasonic. Phew!
Thanks for the info
What an incredible depth of information. I only just started to investigate as I googled recipes for DIY record cleaner solutions. There seems to be a plethora of Iso-Alcohol, Distilled Water and Jet Dry Rinse solution in certain proportions all of which were higher in the percentage of alcohol, so your reporting of risk vs. benefit effectiveness is EXACTLY what we want to know! Thank you for your tireless best science-based efforts. It is so very appreciated in the sea of snake oil.
This video only forms part of my overall vinyl cleaning research, so please check out my full Cleaning Guides on my website. Part 1 looks at manual cleaning, Part 2 at RCM cleaning. Part 3 is yet to appear but will focus on ultrasonic. Part 1 features the preparation of the vinyl disc, which I also advocate for ultrasonic use so it will appear in Part 3 so remains relevant for your use in ultrasonics is your thing. And thank you for your kind words. Here's the Part 1 link: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
My recommendations are super glue, windex, rust remover, wet and dry 40 grit, Drain cleaner, high pressure washer.
i have tried this but damaged my records, maybe i didnt put enough ?
Acetone works well for cleaning the music off.
@@kenneth1767 🤣
Hi Paul, Thanks for this informative video. Just a quick question, what percentage of alcohol did you use. 70%, 80% or 90%. So far, I clean my record with only dishwasher soap and distilled water and seem to work well. What do your feelings about my recipe.
This video is relaxing…😌🥰
Great thanks
This is the most intelligible explanation that I have yet heard!! I used to wonder why records from the same company had a slightly different look, feel, and sound as they survived the decades.
You say that we can’t know that we’re not damaging our records over the long term if we’re cleaning them regularly with too much alcohol.
But somebody must have done a proper test to determine if alcohol used repeatedly to clean records dulls their sound.
E.g., buy two copies each of five different records. Clean one copy of each of the five records with a home brew solution containing, say, 20 percent IPA and 80 percent distilled water - and clean them over and over and over, say, 10 times each. Then., for each of the 5 records, do a blind AB comparison between the copy cleaned with the heavy alcohol solution and the control copy.
I’m sure one could improve upon the details of the experiment I’ve described, but you get the idea. It seems to me that a test like this would be super useful. For example, suppose the result was, yes, all 5 records cleaned with the 20 percent IPA solution sounded duller than the control records. Then, we would know with more confidence that 20 percent alcohol slowly destroys records. On the other hand, if the records cleaned with 20 pct ipa sounded about the same as the control records, we’ll, that wouldn’t DEFINITIVELY prove that it’s safe, but increases the likelihood that it’s safe, perhaps enough for some people to continue using it in that concentration.
Well, I have done such a test and it damaged my discs. I think I was referring to official, industry sources there.
SUCH a great breakdown, ty! I had no idea recipes varied so much and it makes sense that this variable creates so much inconsistency in opinions across the vc on how to "properly clean records". Perhaps the first question is, what is the record in question made of?
fascinating makes me think your the best thank you...
Funny, I misread the title as “vinyl IS alcohol “ and I was like “yep!”
Damn just watched your videos after receiving my Knosti. The damn thing is now still waiting in its box as I don't want any residue on my OM20 stylus ... I suppose a rinsing with distilled water and few % of isopropanol will do the job after using the Knosti mixture. What would you recommend ?
HI Victor - my manual cleaning Guide might be of use here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
You're right about the difference chemical use in producing vinyl records. Some may have a glaze look, some may look dull or have a different texture than the other. That's how you can tell certain companies that make vinyls, use their own chemicals to produce records. Another way you can tell by listening before the music plays when dropping the needle in the grooves of the record is called white noise, it can be heard as high or low noise.
I've been using pure alcohol for 45 years to no ill affect and I'm ready to play MUCH sooner. Pure alcohol only once in a long while and a dry carbon fiber brush every single play and I highly recommend it. If pure alcohol was injurious to record vinyl it wouldn't matter how week the solution was, it would still do, at least some damage to the records with each wet cleaning and my records sound glorious!
Interesting video and I look forward to more. I have been using an Okki Nokki for a year or so. It is fine, I suppose. I almost prefer doing it manually and I'm looking at doing a manual scrub with my fluid* and then a distilled water rinse on the ON vacuum. We'll see. *I use the London Jazz Collector's recipe of distilled water, Ilfotol and isopropyl alcohol per his suggested brew. One suggestion: You might touch on 'why use alcohol at all?' I didn't see that in this video. Thank you. Subscribed.
Thank you very much, Joe - and thanks for sharing your cleaning experiences. I'll be looking closely at many other areas of vinyl cleaning in the future. I can think of a 100 subjects as I'm typing this! :) Surfactants is on the list (I've already tested Ilfotol - more will follow before I publish the video), non-alcoholic approaches too, why use/not use alcohol is there...and on and on .:) Oh, and many thanks for subscribing. Appreciate it.
Peroxide couple sprays and wipe with a lint free towel. If the record is filthy you need a deep clean. With room temperature water running use a wet soft cloth with couple drops of dish soap only wash clockwise soft strokes and rinse quickly and then use 50% alcohol clockwise and rinse quickly shake the record few times to remove excess water off and wipe dry clockwise with a lint free cloth, put the record on the turntable and look at it to see if you have any wet spots if so finish drying with a soft lint cloth again till you no longer see wetness. By doing this you will remove any static dirt oil etc. it’s ok to use couple drops of soap but not more….ok to wash the record label to its not going to damage it…as a dj for years I been doing this for years. It’s not like you are going to do this every time only when you see extreme filth on it….
What is your default cleaning method for prepping brand new records fresh out of the sleeve, in order to get rid of any manufacturing remnants of the "releasing agent" or whatever other gunk may still be on them from the pressing plant?
My own default is via the Degritter ultrasonic cleaner but the Disco Antistat (and that step-by-step solution you're now aware of) would be my manual selection if I went down that route. That release agent is actually part of the vinyl recipe (as I describe in this video). The vinyl 'sweats' during the pressing operation to prevent it sticking to the press.
That was a very analytical way to approach the subject. Something that I'm ashamed to admit that I never thought of. I just thought the recipes for cleaning solution were close to a standard, with little tweaks of personal preference. Understanding that my personal recipe is upwards of 25% IPA !! I'm going to have to second / third guess the recipe because what you just said makes perfect sense. Thanks for that!
Thanks - for more thoughts on this, please see this Guide: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
hi Paul, just a couple of my findings, I purchased a Medeski Scofield Martin & Wood lp called juice, it wouldn't play ,, every few seconds i had to remove some odd gunk from the stylus , it was brand new from first day of release . it took 8 shots on the VC-S mk2 with a final hit with 50/50 isoprop/distilled water to get it playable and clean , sounds incredible now but this goes to show that all plastic formulae are not equal as you said, i am not the only person to have experienced the gunk phenomena on some new vinyl. it seems the industry is having to relearn .
For the most part i use project washit on the vc-s with older charity shop finds and for general record cleaning, but even new records get a hit with' l'Art du Son' on the vc-s which appears to slow down the accumulation of grime in the first place.
In my decades of using records I find that one good clean every 10-20 years with a fresh, high quality poly lined sleeve used after cleaning should be enough if the records are handled/stored well and put away after use.
keep the great videos coming.
Thanks Nat - that stuff has probably leached form the recipe itself during pressing. Because, as I say, each vinyl recipe tends to be different, you may find it on only a few records and not on plenty of others. Great observation though, thanks for letting me know.
Very Informative video. Thank you. Wondering if the lack of horror stories/videos on UA-cam also suggest a variation that yes we don't know but it might be harmless even at 100% alcohol concentration (an easy test on records ready for garbage). Thanks again Paul.
The most informative videos on record cleaning I have watched. I have ordered TergiKleen. So for my deep clean solution: distilled water, 1% alcohol and about .5% Tergikleen (per instructions on Tergikleen bottle). Would you add a little Dawn dishwasher soap to this mixture? I will be doing a rinse next and then using Vinyl Vac to dry.
No. I would not add any general commercial cleaning liquids. They cause more problems than they solve. I can’t post the link right now but check out my website. Under the Features and Vinyl Care section I have a manual cleaning guide there. Check that out and give me a shout if you need any help.
Your channel is a fantastic resource to vinyl lovers everywhere,🤓 kudos and keep up the great content ! Any ideas about how to prevent moisture from splitting my wooden goat hair cleaning brush down by the bristles ? I think the handle would be better if it was plastic.
Thanks Michael. Are you having issues now with the brush or are you concerned about the future?
@@TheAudiophileMan I was also going to mention Never use alcohol to clean 78 Shellac records they melt ! ☢
What all this sounds like to me is that it has never really been proven by anyone that alcohol damages a vinyl record.
I have ruined a couple of records twenty years ago with alcohol. I am not sure what the concentration was but it was of the denatured variety and literally caused kind of a meltdown. I tend to agree with this guy that enough will cause damage and as little as needed should be used.
The denatured variety is different.
Great. I waited for this so long and I can't wait to know much more.
Calin Lucaci thanks Calin! I’m working on it! :)
@@TheAudiophileMan Thank you!
Watching your other video about the vinyl cleaning solutions... How could we know the reaction that a substance like ilfotol might have with vinyl? Any articles or clues?
Do you mean potential damage that might be inflicted? I don't know to be honest. But I have considered it which is why I like to be cautious so advise removing it as soon as the clean is done. That is, I advise a rinse cycle to remove any residue left over, after a clean.
Interesting video. I'm actually reconsidering my opinion of using alcohol in my hand washing mix, which I've been using for years. I bought the purple variant of Metallica's 72 Seasons. As I do with all my new records, I cleaned it first, using a mixture of demineralised water(70%), isopropyl alcohol(30%) Then I noticed that it had some weird marks on it after I dried it. It looked almost like hazing. So I sent it back and got a new replacement.
Being a little wary, but having no reason to be concerned, I cleaned the first disc of the replacement. This time, I used about 3ml Ilfotol in the 500ml, 80/20 mixture of iso and water. I checked it first, and it was perfect. But after cleaning, it had the same marks on it as the first one. It also produces a hideous sound.
I think there must be a coating on the vinyl that has reacted with the alcohol in my cleaning solution.
I've never heard of anything like this before.
I also have another colour variant of the same album and cleaned it using the same solution. There was no obvious damage to that one.
The damage is mostly in the run out section of the record and on the last track.
I only cleaned side 1, so have managed to save the record, apart from that small bit of damage.
If people aren't aware of this, there could be a lot of worthless purple variants of the latest Metallica album on the second hand market.
Paul, since there are different % of isopropyl alcohol, let’s say I use 1%. Do I use 70% or 90% etc. What do you use?
It doesn't matter what strength of alcohol you use as long as you can sort it out in the mix with a bit of maths :) That is, as long as there is a grand total of 1% alcohol in your bath, you're sorted. Or 7% - which is what I use because I use Glycol in my recipe (see here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/). I personally use the strongest alcohol out there because you use less and get better value. The 70% option, for example, uses 30% distilled water so you're paying over the odds for the water part.
great stuff! I use 1% alcohol and a few drops of ilfotol, does a great job.
This is great. Why? Because, unlike a lot of people in our hobby, you do not claim to know it all and have perfect information. You admit some things are not knowable rather than guessing at the answers to save face. And your recommendation was arrived at through careful study. You acknowledge that it may not be perfect, but it is certainly not catastrophic. It's a compromise, and as we know from aligning our cartridges, this medium has many compromises (but still manages to be pretty effective).
Subjective words used to describe what you're hearing dont prove or disprove what is happening to the specific chemical composition of vinyl records when cleaned with isopropyl alcohol. The time the isopropyl is in contact with the vinyl also plays a big role. The other issue is the mold release agent built into the raw vinyl which activates when its heated and pressed. This release agent (typically pva) can only be removed with a polar protic solvent (isopropyl) of sufficient dilution concentration. Its really the only consumer grade chemical which isnt too aggressive and yet effective at removing and suspending the pva. Aside from exposure time, temperature is also a big factor in how aggressive the IPA acts on the vinyl and can also degrade vinyl over time by itself. Pure virgin vinyl is by itself non-reactive with IPA, but the dyes used in the vinyl aren't, so I wouldn't used IPA on any vinyl other than black or clear. The softeners and emulsifiers in certain types of newer vinyl are petrochemical and may react to hydrocarbon polar solvents, so those thin flimsy 80s records (Atco pressings) are far more vulnerable to IPA damage than other older, harder vinyl compositions. I wouldn't hesitate to use IPA for the first wash in 10:1 dilution to remove the pva. You wont get all of it, but most that floats on top of the vinyl after pressing. Some of it remains trapped in the vinyl chemical matrix and becomes food for mold and bacteria growth, especially if a paper sleeve is used. Its very important to remove as much pva as possible to avoid surface bacteria and mold. These are the biggest enemies of vinyl records and can render a record permanently damaged. Let's also not forget those fancy ultrasonic cleaners which can ruin the vinyl if overused due to cavitation friction and concentrated surface heating. The cheapo ultrasonic machines are not designed for dedicated vinyl cleaning as compared to the specialty machines designed to not damage the vinyl, even if you overclean it.
Thanks so much for this video. I enjoy your demeanor and easy-to-understand British accent. But I have a few things to say. I've heard that the PVC used in records is normally clear. That's why nowadays we get so many colored ones on the market. Evidently your black samples were treated with some type of carbon, that's what I've heard btw. Now as for alcohol use, how I tested it was to put undiluted store bought 70% isopropyl on a record in a 3" square area and let it sit overnight. The next day, having played the record previously I played it again and noticed absolutely no difference. I think the best way to test something that may have detrimental effect would be try it out on an unwanted record in an undiluted form. If it causes damage of course, back it off. 😊
Hey there, would you recommend Tergikleen? Currently using Mofi Super Deep Cleaner with an RCM but looking for a cheaper alternative that will perform the same or better
Tergikleen is the best surfactant I've tested thus far but I'm hoping to test a new one I've recently grabbed so...we'll see :) Nevertheless, Tergikleen i superb yes. But as a surfactant only.
The Audiophile Man I haven’t heard of anyone mixing it with anything but water per directed use. Are you saying it would be wise to mix with something else or use another cleaning solution before or after Tergikleen? I planned on just using 2 drops of Tergikleen in 16oz of Deionized Water in bottle to apply with brush, vacuum it, then rinse with DI water, and final vacuum.
Hi Jacob - I'd recommend distilled rather than deionised. The latter doesn't destroy bacteria. I'm talking about using the tergikleen, diluted by the distilled water, on the vinyl disc, cleaned with the help of...ohh, I need to create a video. Otherwise, I'll be writing 2,000 words of explanation :) Just finishing testing a competitor for Tegikleen and then I'll post ASAP.
The Audiophile Man much appreciated, it’s difficult to find info on this stuff as far as additional steps. I’ll be looking forward to your video
So now I need a time machine as well? Can I power that with alcohol or will it distort the time/space continuum?
Didn’t Tandy/Radio Shack stock those?
Been an old school DJ cleaning for ages using Discwasher kit now I’m looking into Tergikleen solution, 10 to 20 drops per one gallon of distilled water, one bottle will make 30 gallons of vinyl cleaning solution. Must use caution ⚠️ with this product. When mixing its recommended to use latex gloves of some kind that works with you to be safe. Note!!!!
only 20 drops max per one gallon of distilled water. Thats how concentrated it is. You can wash by hand with gloves, or manual record bathing tubs, Vacuum setups and ultrasonic bath as well.
How about use as much alcohol as you like for the debris to come off ,and then use your record cleaning machine to actually clean the alcohol off the record!Do you think it is safe for the record and the stylus?Great topic keep it up
The problem with using too much alcohol is that it can - when used in excessive amounts - soften the vinyl and damage the grooves. Actually distorting them. So I would advise against that one. And thanks for your kind words :)
I used 40% alcohol (91%) and 60% distilled water to preclean the manufacturing grime and old gunk from used vinyl. Then use a surfactant mix to do the main clean using a superfine soft brush.
Then rinse and air dry in a rack.
The sonic benefits is enormous. If it's a good recording pressed correctly the sound is 3D and stunning. I only have to clean it like this once. After that, just brush off any dust that come from the table or the air. Don't touch the grooves and keep in a plastic sleeve and you'll never have to clean it again.
A damp cloth gives the exact same result.
@@bottomendbliss Well, I've used both and no, it does not "give the exact same result". In fact, the results aren't even close. If that were true then any product with alcohol in it would just have plain water in it. And any product that uses a surfactant, like 'Dawn" would just have plain water in it.
As a DJ in the early 80's we played wet - 70-30 water - isopropanol, even before .... Over years,every Wednesday till Sunday. After the Club changed to CD in the mid/ later 80's. Got a bunch of them and cleaned them by hand water and mild soap (dish cleaner) and after that rinsing with water and dried them by hand (1985). Now only playing them dry.
A bit lengthy, but charmingly informative!
I only use acohol for my first inital cleaning! For new records i use The Last Factory RCM cleaning fluid, for used record i use Mofi's One cleaning solution(Which i think is one of the best on the market!)! I follow the with a rinse of Terikleen and distilled water then follow that up with a rinse with The Record Dotctors Quick wash record cleaner! After that i never use alcohol for cleaning again! If the record needs a cleaning again in the furture i just use a qiuck rinse with the Terikleen and distilled water again! I do all this with a VPI Vacum cleaning machine! Been using this method for years and my records sound fantastic afterwards!
Interesting info! A friend is using some hard alcoholic drink like Vodka (it is only 45% alcohol) to clean his vinyls. I started using Dry Gyn (Bombay Sapphire) and is working in terms of cleaning. Is it affecting my records some how? Haven't notice it so far. I'm not using a lot anyways. Will be interesting to know you opinion @theAudiophileMan
So how well would the records have been cleaned in a 0% sonic clean?
Very well indeed. Not as good as one with a small amount of alcohol added but very well.
I normally use a Brillo pad.
I found 2 companies are now producing record cleaning solutions without any alcohol in them - Groovinator and Winyl. I've ordered the Winyl Pro Clean 6 so we'll see what it's like.
Let us know how you get on Robert!
@@TheAudiophileMan UPDATE! I have cleaned a couple of records via my normal regime but replacing the alcohol-based solution with the Winyl Pro Clean 6 solution (just WPC6 + Halen Mon distilled water) and the results are great. They sound excellent, no worse than if I had used the alcohol-based solution. Apart from a little foaming when you first pour it (leave it for a minute for that to disappear) it works very well indeed, happy to recommend it. It was the same price as what i'd normally buy from Vinyl Shelter. I purchased 2 litres of ready to use solution from Divine Audio for £19.99. I am happy to use this alcohol-free solution from now on! Oh and it has no smell at all, unlike the IPA mixture!
Thanks for the update Robert - I'll go check it out.
Sounds like you found a good isopropyl ratio for an ultrasonic machine where cavitation is the cleaning mode. Maybe with a vacuum machine you might have a situation where dissolving some contaminants might benefit from more isopropyl?
I'm looking at a series of recommended videos that focus on different methods: manual, RCM and Ultrasonic. Actually, I've been promising that for a while (sigh) but things have gotten in the way to delay matters. I'm working on it, though :) What I want to do first is update a video I took down on Surfactants (not sure you saw the original or are familiar with that?) and then I'll sort the cleaning vids.
@@TheAudiophileMan I am looking forward for your new material. I missed the surficant video. Will it be return?
Yes, as I say I'm working on an update.
I use a spinclean device, purified water to fill the tank:
24 fl.oz or 682ml to which I add:680ml of puried water
1.7ml of prop-alcohol,2.5ml of white vinegar (yep...) In the 5 litre bottle of purified water I add x2 drops of dishwasher rinse aid! Perfect cocktail, works perfecto......
Hello many years ago I invested in a Moth record cleaner, and they recommended using 10% alcohol and a little splash of photographs wetting agent, to be honest it was never a great leap forward in my listing experience, I would agree with you that less is more, your UA-cam channel is very informative, 👍
I am about to get started in Ultrasonic cleaning and main use will be to enhance relatively new records, but with I understand much residues in the recipe ( mould inhibited ? Etc etc. I take the point on low level alcohol from a sonic view, but what about ability of alcohol to aid the groove cleaning process? And is alcohol worth disregarding completely?
I’m travelling Ken so have limited use of a phone so can’t provide links but go to my site, hit the Buyers Guide tab, select the Vinyl Care menu option. Then Part 1 of my Vinyl Cleaning Guide. That’s devoted to manual cleaning but the first part - vinyl prep - is also relevant to ultrasonics. It talks about alcohol and everything else. Give me shout if you have problems.
@@TheAudiophileMan Had a look at buyers guide but can’t see this topic covered, but never mind.
Here's the link, Ken: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Great video! Wow I've been using too much iso alcohol! Much appreciated info. "gin and tonics".....you aren't British are you? 😉
Slightly, yes.
I use a mix of 1 qt of distilled water, 2oz of isopropyl alcohol, 1 tsp of Dawn dish soap, which actually works two fold: as a cleaner and surfactant. Going on 30 years without any problems.
Hi vinyl surfer - thanks for sharing your cleaning regime.
But what about all the detergents and scents that come in dish soap? Better to just use a surfactant by itself, no?
Great video and very informative thanks I was looking at the Analog relax cleaning brush to clean my vinyl and when I saw the price £92 ouch. I have heard of a company called viynl fantasy thay do viynl record cleaning fluid but I don't know if it's any good as there is so many different products on the market it can get really confusing and sometimes a bit expensive 😳
My relatively recent manual cleaning guide, on my Website, may be of use to you: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Please help. I just got an old stack of records from around the 1920s they are about 1/4 inch thick. What is the best way to clean them? I don't want to ruin them.
Check out this channel for the Disco Antistat review, bin the included liquid that supplied with the Disco, avoid alcohol like the plague because you're not cleaning vinyl here and alcohol will damage your 78s and look at something like L'Art du Son which will be a gentle cleaning solution.
Paul, a video in which you show us how you clean your vinyl would be much appreciated.
I have produced a couple of extensive text-based Cleaning Guides aimed at manual cleaning and cleaning using a RCM. Have you seen those?
Your advice on rubbing alcohol could be directly correlated with consumption of alcohol beverages. Doesn't seem to have any bad effect at first but how do you know what it does over time. Little or none is best.😅
Good morning, what do you think about earphones HIFIMAN Sundara?
I haven't seen those 'in the flesh' yet, I'm afraid Carlos.
I keep trying to find the video that you allude to in this, and in another video where you reviewed the Disco-Antistat, where you mentioned your special vinyl cleaning concoction which includes GLYCOL. But I can't find it. I watched the surfactants video and it doesn't mention it either. What is this magical concoction, and is there a video describing it in detail?
It's not available as a video but it is accessible via my website here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks for the quick reply. Excellent tutorial, and a wealth of useful information. Cheers
@@TheAudiophileMan I have one more question about the glycol. I am somewhat OCD when it comes to measurements. The small glass vials with the pipette droppers are 50ml. And you are adding two pipette droppers worth of Glycol to the Turgikleen/water mixture. Do you happen to have a more exact quantity/ percentage of glycol to use?
Also I am wondering your thoughts on doing this without one of those Disco-Antistat devices, and simply use a tabletop with a soft microfiber towel as a base, and first spread the surfectant/glycol mixture on the record surface , then mist on the water/alcohol blend and wipe with a microfiber towel, followed by a distilled water rinse?
I'll have to get back to you next week on the Glycol thing - give me a shout if I don't. I wouldn't recommend doing the manual cleaning without the Disco because the latter adds essential abrasion action to the cleaning action which is a necessity and is also sadly rare in general vinyl cleaning elsewhere.
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks for that tip. One further question. Have you ever tried the wood glue method, and if not what is the drawback/risk?
Would it be better then just to use a cleaning solution without any alcohol?
Yes..and no. This video is aimed at those who want to use alcohol and want more info on it. In broad terms, I used to be completely anti-alcohol but, after extensive tests over a long time, have found that it's needed to clean your vinyl but only in very small quantities. No where near what most people use. I hope to elaborate more on this with a future series of vinyl cleaning videos I'm planning.
I use a Loricraft PRC-6 , mostly with the suggested L'Art du Son diluted liquid . I use a diluted alcohol cleaner first on a very dirty LP , vacuum , follow with usual cleaning and since last year always follow with a distilled water rinse and vacuum . I will only use the alcohol solution once on any record assuming that more is not better .
when you realize you’re watching this on a Tuesday in March 👀👀. (03/16/2021)
I use it diluted at 10% in distilled water and spray a microfiber cloth when i want to get rid of fingerprints and other stuff from second hand records.
This method cleans just the surface though and not the inside of the grooves, but that's what i want to clean anyway.
Interesting - personally I’m a dry clean advocate, as I don’t like the idea of any liquid cleaner (aqueous or solvent based) forming a dusty slurry which could set solid in the base of the groove.
My current go-to of a gentle wipe with an inexpensive microfibre cloth and dissipate static with a conductive carbon fibre composite turntable mat seems to work well for me.
Just for your info, here's my manual cleaning guide. In case it might help in some way: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Thanks for the link.
Back in the early 80’s when I was young, free, single, (relatively) cash rich, and changed my hi-fi more frequently than my socks; I ended up as the proud owner of a Linn/Naim system which was my pride and joy. As the decade wore on, my new pride and joys became the holy trinity of mortgage, marriage and kids, the latter two of the trilogy which I adored, but I had by then naturally proceeded to be very cash poor, and as I couldnt have all this exotica set up in a house with two small kids charging round anyway, with a heavy heart I sold the lot (being roundly ripped off in the process :-( )
Anyway where I was getting to after all my life story, was that my only remaining fossilized remnants from my hi-fi pinnacle are a couple of pieces of Naim speaker cable, and the pamphlet that came with the LP12. The sage advice on record cleaning from the good folks at Linn was that on no account should you use any cleaning ‘products’ on your precious vinyl...the best deep cleaner will be the stylus itself and just get a dry vibrational stylus cleaner to sort that out.
Appreciate that all sorts of opinions have changed in the last 35-40 years, but I would value your thoughts on that philosophy.
Many thanks
Malc
@@Malcm59 That is what i also do, the stylus will wear those contaminants from the pressing plant and with a microfiber cloth i remove them.Everytime the record plays the sound improves.
Dry cleaning the vinyl every time it plays does not let the dust particles sit inside the grooves and build up.
Wet cleaning is for very dirty second hand records that have oily stains and such.
An employee of a large pressing operation (possibly the largest) once told me there are only about 3 manufacturers of pellets worldwide. Further, I've read that something like 90% of vinyl used in records is produced in a single East Asian country.
I was also told that a record label specifies whether the plant is to use virgin, or a mix of virgin and recycled vinyl (the bits the machines trim off the edges), as this ratio affects sound quality and cost. Of course, records pressed from virgin vinyl are much less prone to noise, hence the greater cost.
Yup - Thailand .
Hi. Why is the other video on surfactants private now?
It needs updating, Damian.
@@TheAudiophileMan I see. Thanks.
From my experience, alcohol is likely to dry dirt on your record and thus increase surface noise until you clean it again with sth else. I noticed the "crackling" occured more loudly at the beginning of a record: it's probably because I don't have a vacuum cleaner and let my LPs dry on a rack after cleaning, so my DIY liquid stays for longer in the run in grooves before evaporating, leaving the dirt there. I was already able to mitigate the surface noise caused by dry dirt by simply cleaning them again with distilled water. Other than that, disco-antistat and l'art du son are the way to go. While alcohol will probably not damage your records, you're gonna have to clean them twice as much afterwards so it's not really worth it.
I use hot water ....in theory to open up the grooves ...then wipe with cotton cloth ....Alcohol is iffy ,but I use it also
Use 藍威寶
My takeaway from all this:
0. Brush dry-clean first.
1. Dilute 99% IPA at about 1:9 to get a 10% solution Plus a few drops of a surfactant diluted in the distilled water before adding the IPA. Only make small amounts because the IPA evaporates quickly.
2. Wash both sides quickly for around 20-30 seconds, then vacuum until dry or microfiber dry.
3. The wash record with a non-alcoholic solution.
4. Vac until dry.
5. Ultrasonic clean for 15 minutes at 30 C with surfactant.
6. Distilled water rinse
7. Dry vac
(7.5). LAST sealant
8. Repeat after 20 plays, without Step 1 and (7.5).
Did you try distilled water with 0% isopropyl? Makes me wonder if the alcohol does anything.
Yes and yes the alcohol does do something. I think it helps to melt grime build up but it only goes so far. It's not a silver bullet. If you think of an archeologist removing a piece of pottery from the ground? The alcohol is like the brush, removing dust from the partially exposed surface, so you see detail of the partially exposed bit. You really need gentle abrasion to remove the baked on leached oils often referred to as 'release agent'. Which is why I recommend ultrasonics. Alcohol is essential though but you only need around 1% to do the job.
@@TheAudiophileMan Gentle abrasion on my ass. Stop touching it.
Good morning Audiophile Man, you mention there is no real sonic benefit to using north of .5% alcohol. C:ould you clarify for me the following: are you saying that my cleaning mixture, let's say it's 100ml, the alcohol content should be .5ml of the 100ml? I just bought a bottle of 99% isopropyl. Let's say if I were to make a mixture in a 2L bottle. How much isopropyl 99% should I put? Should I even use it?, How many drops of triton x-100? How much distilled water? Thank you! I love how detailed your videos are btw!
Indeed although 1% is fine and easier to work out :) And I would now avoid Triton and got for either Tergikleen or Ilfotol. It's been banned in Europe because it's found to be harmful to wildlife (attacks hormones, apparently). Thanks for your kind words and you might want to check out my manual cleaning guide here to answer other questions. Give me a shout if you have further questions once you've had a look: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Have you seen my surfactant video, btw?
@@TheAudiophileMan Thank you for getting back to me so quickly! :) I have seen your surfactant video. I'm reading your vinyl cleaning guide pt 1. Thanks again.
I love this video and it's attention to detail, but with different pressings having better or worse sound depending on ALOT of factors, if you're only cleaning a record once, what difference does it make? Not to mention that every time you play the record it degrades -- I'm not sure I should care too much about whether alcohol is in the long run is bad for my records. EVERTHING is bad for vinyl records. I'll just stick with my once every 10 years clean using alcohol and not sweat it too much. Nice video though!
I think distilled water and vacuuming is about the best you can do, safely, to be sure. If you store them correctly, you should only have to wet clean them once.
I prefer to use an old fashioned way to clean records. After buying/selling vinyl records at record shows for a few decades I've talked with some old schoolers (about my age, Medicare age), one in particular fills a kitchen sink half way with warm water and a little dish soap,( a few drops) and having a very soft cloth soaking in the water. Then I take the record rinse it in a light stream of warm water under the tap rotating the disk 3-4 times being careful not to hit the label, then placing the disk on a soft towel on the counter. Next I take the soaking cloth ring it out a bit and go around and around the disk using medium pressure in the direction of the grooves. Then I take the disk and carefully rinse under the tap again with warm water rotating the disk to remove the soapy water, then place on the towel on the counter and dry with another soft rag/towel and dry in a circular motion. Then repeat for the other side of the record. This works well and it doesn't do any damage, especially with super rare records I just do not want to risk damage and this is a safer less risky process. I don't use distilled water, I guess you could, heating it in a microwave then add to the sink but that's too much work. Some may have other ideas but I would rather use a safer approach...
Thanks for this - I have to say, this isn't my vinyl cleaning system. Its only the background for it :) My system is here - for manual cleaning: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ and here for RCMs: theaudiophileman.com/category/features/vinyl-care/ while Pt/3 for ultrasonics is still to arrive.
And the thickness of records varies a lot.
I’ve just recently jumped into rabbit hole of vinyl. I have some old records I have from the 80s and 90s , that need cleaning. I have no idea where to start.
Here's a Guide I produced from my website, it may help: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan Thank you, I just read it. I will give it a try. I have some old records I bought in the 90s that need a good clean. I only hope the player I had at the time didn’t ruin them.
What percentage of isopropyl alcohol to use 60%,70%,or 90% at the .5% level ?
HI John - check out my Vinyl Cleaning Guide here for more info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Back in the day dj's used to clean vinal with alcohol regulary with a tiny brash, even while they where spining the record, all i remember was that as more as you use the more there was needed..otherwise the record sounded horrible...
Aren’t there other variables to consider, like changing equipment?
Of course but this guide focuses on the software no-matter what stage you system might be at.
A topic that they talk a lot about and few dare to investigate more than necessary. Thank you for bringing this important topic to the table. One thing I can share with you: a while ago I had a somewhat unpleasant experience applying this solution to some of my records. I don't remember the amounts, but it was less than isopropyl alcohol. Anyway, since I didn't have a vacuum system, I dried them with a microfiber cloth and after a few days I saw how the isopropyl alcohol stained my inner sleeves, which caused these stains to become impregnated on my LP's. I had to clean them again but anyway the idea in this case is that, if you apply this homemade solution, you necessarily have a vacuum system so that the isopropyl alcohol does it's thing for a few seconds and spends as little time as possible in the grooves of your records.
I had used ethanol over isopropanol thinking I was doing well. Maybe I was but the % was around 10, too high. I just learned of Tergikleen which contains Turgitol..."ol"= alcohol of some type I surmise. Learned this from you. I have 30ml on order.
Spin Cleans included cleaning formula I have heard is like snot in the grooves and on the stylus. It requires additional rinses.
Triton X-100 is a major but not only ingredient in the Kodak Photoflo soup. Why can't this be simpler? I know, chemistry is very complex but it is hard to know the right choice.
Please see my pinned note in my surfactant video re. Triton. It's no longer on my recommended list.
You might find my cleaning guide for manual cleaning of use - it can (and will when I get the time) be adapted to RCMs and ultrasonic tech too: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
I was sorry to hear about Eleanor.