Are You Less Of A Player For Using Top Tier?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- STOP TOP TIER SHAMING!
Top players can fall victim to the discourse out there, and it's never more evident when we talk about how strong a character is. People tend to want to downplay their characters because they're worried they'll be discredited for being carried by a top tier. We have to stop this discourse! James explains why!
== TIME STAMPS ==
0:00:00 Intro
0:05:10 Downplaying Characters
0:07:23 Not Discrediting The Players
0:10:20 Tier Lists Are Real
0:13:02 Avoiding The Nerf Hammer
0:17:14 Recognizing Top Tier Is A Skill
0:20:53 I Thought Kim Was STRONG! :-(
0:22:29 No One Can Say MenaRD Is Carried!
0:24:29 Pick A Top Tier!
0:28:00 It's Healthy To Discuss Tiers
0:32:16 Stop Top Tier Shaming
0:36:06 TRUE Broken Chars Would Be Devs' Fault
0:40:53 It's FUN To Use Top Tier!
0:43:54 Bored Of Same People Winning
0:46:10 You See The Flaws Of Your Character
0:48:02 If A Mix-Up Is Real, It's Real
0:51:14 Will Kim Location Test Buffs Help?
0:53:04 What Strong Tools Actually Are
0:58:03 Closing Thoughts
Find the UA-cam version of this episode here:
• Are You Less Of A Play...
Get the audio version of this episode here:
/ toptierdiscourse
Soundcloud - / ultrachentv
Itunes - UltraChenTV.com/iTunes
Spotify - open.spotify.com/show/4nOFXvd...
Join the UltraChen Discord! / discord
Please consider supporting our Patreon! / ultrachentv
Twitch - / ultrachentv
Twitter - / ultrachentv
James Chen
/ jchensor
/ jchensor
#FGC #Esports #Podcast - Ігри
I get shit for playing akuma in every street fighter game but he is my favorite character the only one I WANT To play I can't help if he is good
Get the tattoo to end all debate
@@RiskyBusiness144 what?
What a "coincidence" 😂🙄
@@watchmesquatch I've been playing akuma probably since before you was born kid kiss my ass
At my level. I'm immune to tier lists, nerfs and buffs. Having a blast with SF6
Once you picked your character, and if you're not willing to change anyway, imo this is how anyone ought to look at the game. Because if you've picked your character and won't change, it literally doesn't matter at all.
"Hell yes my character is top tier, i am better at choosing characters than you AND i am a better player than you and I'm about to make this set hell for you, cry about it on twitter. You will never be able to do what i do with this character because i am better than you. They can nerf them and I'll still be at the top of the leaderboards because i will squeeze what i can out of this character or pick a new top tier."
-no top player ever, apparently.
Hmm. I'm actually trying to think of a concrete example of this. Hahaha. I'm SURE it's happened.
That's a good copypasta. I'm borrowing it, thanks!
I can understand _"this character is annoying to fight"_ feeling against top tier characters. But downplaying a player achievements and skills just because they used top tier is really disrespectful.
The answer is yes…😂 but in all seriousness my gripe with playing top tier is when u only play a character because they are good not cause u like the character. It’s lame imo and makes the game less fun/interesting.
Someone should make a tournament where everyone is required to play both top and bottom tier characters and see what happens. Make all those Lukes pair him with Lily!
Caveats for my point:
1. Never got past diamond rank 5.
2. Switch characters from JP, to Manon, Marissa, currently playing Blanka
3. Salty just got bodied by a couple Master rank Kens.
My biggest problem with characters who are top tier is obviously that there are way more guides on how to play them well. And more so the guides are going to have a " set play guide" about the most optimal/ productive responses.
I do understand that, to reach a certain level you need to learn the cliche responses/ openings and how to solve them. But I feel like there are matches. I play against people, where it feels like it is an organic battle. We are both responding and or learning from each other. While I think top tiers have a few answers that solely win as a knowledge check. Yes I do not do my homework and I know why I'm losing. And I agree that you can never create a game that isn't it going to be knowledge check after a certain rank, it still sucks though. But yeah play who the f*** you like.
Edit: team Tuesday show, been here for decade plus. Maybe not here from the beginning but James, nothing makes me happier than knowing you kept it moving. Don't get me wrong. I want David back, because I love hearing you converse. I also would love to see David's response to Snake eyes qualifying for Capcom cup live on a Tuesday.
Edit Edit: Definitely on one. Rip Floe, The only person that would ever get me to watch goofy ass VR chat. Hands down one of the homies I would always watch day one with a new character.
Thumbanil is my my personal main progression from launch to now.
Hahahaha! I tried to be authentic. LOL! And it felt wrong using a Lily head for the low tier so I had to go with Manon.
So you went from Chun to Manon? (jk, it's the other way)
29:25 "Alright... here we go" on that reply to "Manon" was just so true. I rarely change my main or even multiple main for any fighting game, but it's just a high slope to jump in rank as a Manon player.
hey James can you maybe turn off your discord notifications during the streams?
it was driving me insane thinking someone was messaging me during the video lmao
I would like to second this, tricked my ass multiple times.
4:04... just checked muh damn phone 🤣
I've gotten to a point where I don't even hear them anymore. It's... sad. So I didn't even notice. I'll definitely make sure I do that next time!
@@UltraChenTV fair enough. You’re human sometimes.
The only thing i hate is when someone plays a character only because he/she’s top tier, then go around and try to downplay that character.
Love the episode James, but can we mute Discord pings next time? They're driving me mad 🤣
Dear lord. You know, I don't even hear them anymore. That's how useless they are to me because I've gotten so good at ignoring Discord. LOLOL! I'll try to remember next time.
@@UltraChenTV Totally get it! our brains are amazing at filtering out noise... it's just that mine is refusing to do so specifically for these LMAO
Really it's a mix of both character and player in the end. We've all seen great players start winning when they switch to a "top tier" and we've all seen great players suddenly stop winning as often when their "top tier" character gets nerfed and they don't switch. As great as Mena is, he's not going to keep dominating if he just randomly decides to start playing Zangief. It's certainly true that "better" characters can get you easier wins at low level (or just "better" for that skill bracket) but it's also true that at top level play the sometimes micro differences between a really good character and a great character can make the difference in a match if the player skill levels are pretty much in the same ballpark.
But, the thing is, picking a good character is part of being a great player, especially if you're actually trying to win. Mena would be dumb to just start playing Zangief. He's a champion that supports many people and is supported by many people. He literally travels the world to win at a fighting game. Playing a top tier or at least near top tier (and knowing who is top tier) is part of his job. There should be absolutely no shame in "playing top tier" but it's silly to pretend that "playing top tier" isn't important if you're going to be at the top of the game.
i can't ever catch the streams live so wednesday is becoming the greatest day of my life
It's only natural to have people pick a top tier to increase their chances of winning. It's always been an oddity that other folks have always bashed the idea of playing a top tier character. End of the day, those that want to compete for stakes shouldn't feel ashamed for choosing what gives them the advantage. Especially now to be honest, with even higher prize pools.
An oddity to you maybe, it makes perfect sense to people who play the game and want to see an even playing field.
I play Manon and I definitely hope she gets some buffs, but even if she doesn't I can't see myself changing. Normally when I pick a main I stick with them the whole game.
Stuck with Ryu in 3, Vega in 4 and 5, probably will stick with Manon through 6.
Unfortunately mob mentality will always end up happening, because it is way easier to throw out stuff instead of actually coming up with points for discussion
Not necessarily(does it make you less of a player to play top tier). Sometimes its coincidence. But if you're professional you have incentive to use a character that gets the job done. If it aligns, thats a dope thing. I do think great characters get lost in the mix at times due to tiers and there i do feel like there could be a better way but all it takes is one person to put those underrated characters on the map.
I’ve mained Ken since 2001 he’s had so many placements on the tier list and after what SF 5 was I’m happy he’s top tier. I also plan on using Akuma when he drops in a week and a half. I believe the character is only a piece of the puzzle, you have to really have to squeeze all you can out of a character but without fundamentals and being fundamentally sound it really doesn’t matter who you use, if you can’t bring out their own potential. We need to not focus so much on Tier lists and start focusing on personal improvement and development.
Ken is my favorite character all time and I didn’t play him cause I feel dirty af with that corner carry, to each he’s own
SF6 Guile makes me very happy. My defensive Guile and my impulsive "I'm gonna run up and throw." are in perfect sync thanks in part to Drive Rush and Guile being really solid.
I actually learned a new combo on my own and figuring it out mid match which was extremely fun. Drive Rush Forward Medium Punch Overhead > Crouch Jab > Heavy Flash Kick. A simple combo but a big gamechanger for me.
That's awesome! There's definitely more you can do after the Overhead for bigger damage, but start where you start and grow from there! Really happy to hear you leveling up like that!
SF6 Gulle is like SF2 Guile. It's like a wall lol. I'm enjoying using him so much too, I have a feeling my opponents need to be very prepared mentally for a long game cause Guile is good at stretching the match.
I think this kind of thing is varied by the games themselves. I play a handful of silly teams for fun in umvc3, but you run into someone playing a similar "wacky" team. You go up a few games and suddenly they are swapping to zmc, zero/doom/vergil or something else of the sort. Sometimes the fun can feel "over" even if I'm still winning, because I have to work that much harder than before lol. That said there is a difference between that imo, and someone like K-brad who used to only play mvc3 because of devil may cry. I don't immediately scoff if I see high tier, but seeing a quick swap makes me think they are playing for the tier advantage or counterpick, but in doing so they wind up lacking the skill in both teams, or however many characters.
There is also the other side of things of people that ONLY use top tier in every game, and I feel those people are typically actually weaker than some other players. They don't tend to learn as many niche situations or matchups and can sometimes be blown up by the simplest of things. Yet they'll thrive in top 5 matchup scenarios. Not quite the same thing, but I think about RayRay in marvel who was so amazing, yet he'd get bopped by kbr and Jan probably 85% of the time despite having such an advantage on paper. Heck even Mena vs Broski at kumite, Broski kept doing the projectile into whip follow-up. I swear it took a couple of games for Mena to punish it or at least take space after a move that's -16, and he's literally the best player right now lol. I know he won, but it was probably way closer than it needed to be.
Just a small add, but the people who embrace the top tier life and use the tools properly are very strong players. However, the ones who pick it to just try and let the character "carry" them while also maybe not fitting their playstyle, typically play worse. Pr rog playing E.Ryu or Fei long in sf4 was often pretty bad, but him playing balrog, and he's in top 8s and GF all over the place. Just thinking about all of his legendary moments vs infiltration and daigo gets me hype. That damn red focus lol.
There are a lot of players who only play Top Tier who are VERY strong. Guys like NL and Mago and Xiao Hai, for example. But they are just smart and want to give themselves the best chance possible, AND they are good at adapting to different playstyles.
Also, UMvC3 isn't the best example of a balanced game, especially since it didn't really ever receive any patches. So it's not a game we can compare to ones we play today. So yeah, that game definitely has some balance issues and teams that are super duper strong. But you do see the rare teams like Dual Kevin's Deadpool / Hawkeye breaking through still, which is nice. But for sure, in UMvC3, top tiers can do a bit of carrying, especially Vergil (at leasy Zero Lightning Loops take a LOT of practice).
@@UltraChenTV I think something that makes the sf6 discussion harder imo is that there haven't been quite as many majors than I'm previously used to. "The best" aren't duking it out nearly as much, and regional stuff can be much harder to keep up with.
But in xiao hai's case he is good of course, always has been, but hasn't quite reached that "top tier" player status. In KoF of course he's a god, but never really has had that success in sf. Even in 6 he tries to counterpick a fair bit from what I've seen, with mixed results.
Mago to me almost feels like he is reaching that daigo level, where I feel his time may be over. Far from the sf4 days of relative dominance, but I would've considered him a "god" at some points. 2D god jokes aside lol.
Also unrelated, but good luck in Sajam's tekken tourney. Though, I'm also hoping for some vintage James rage. Maybe toss over a table.
I switched to a top tier and was the best decision I ever made.
😂
Just use the characters too and see if they get the same results. Mena is a generational talent. He won capcom cup with Birdie when people said birdie was trash. And Blanka all of sudden is top tier when Mena won gtfoh.
Apart from a character's style maybe suiting you more than another (you're in synch and you do amazing things), when there is money or whatever at stakes, even more so in a pro scene, I don't think there is any shame in picking the character you think is on top of the foodchain.
Let's say you're invited to a duel, and you've got the choice between 1 bad sword, 5 so-so swords, 5 good swords and 3 super amazing swords... I'm pretty sure you should take one of the 3 super amazing swords.
Saying this, I'm a Marisa player and Luke is probably the character I hate the most design wise. Ever since he appeared in SF5 (which I wasn't even playing), I thought he had the lamest possible design. I'd even take Abel over him.
So... clearly, I'm losing this duel ;-)
Leffen Happy Chaos has entered the chat
Most people who tend to complain over tiers usually aren't good enough to where it would matter to begin with, especially in a game like SF6 where the tiers are pretty tight, relative to a lot of other games.
As for downplayers, kind of pointless to try and downplay a top tier, especially once they start seeing a ton of usage, like who do you take the rest for? Plus a lot of money is on the line, I say use whatever it is at your disposal to win if you're a top player. Online trolls can call you a tierwhore, but at the end of the day, that top tier is a part of the game which everyone has access to.
Then Capcom Japan should delete Dhalsim, Zangief, Lily, Manon, and Kimberly from the game, so that it'll only be top tier characters that were given a ton of tools to compete for the Grand Prize money! 🤣🤣🤣
@@MrBornUniquewhat a way to completely misconstrue and overreact over what I said.
@@azuresaiyan9005 I didn't overreact nor misconstrue what you said at all. James Chen and others' on UA-cam started this same topic back around SFV Season 3.5 and they didn't want the Top Tiers getting any hard nerfs, but were completely fine with Dhalsim & Zangief getting nerfs after multiple balance patches starting from SFV Season 4 - SF6 Season 1.
Might as well be a game with only the Top Tiers in it, because the devs obviously wanted certain characters throughout SFV lifespan to remain Top Tier and SF6 out of the gate having certain characters like Luke, Cammy, Guile, and Chun-li remain Top Tier. Only Juri got buffed from SFV Season 5 to SF6 to be Top Tier and Ken got a major buff from SFV Season 5 to SF6. JP is a brand new character that they wanted to be very good and Dee-Jay got screwed over so badly during the SSF4 - USF4 that they made him a Top Tier.
Do you like seeing Top 32 - Top 8 being majority the same characters being picked just for the sake of winning the Grand Prize or would you rather want to see Mid/Low Tier characters get helped to the point to be competitive for Offline/Online Tournaments???
@@MrBornUnique Yes you did. And now you're conflating what James and others are saying with what I'm saying. I'm not them. Don't get your wires crossed, buddy. You're involved in a totally different argument from the one I'm having. If you're not interested discussing what I'm talking about, then stop responding to me.
What I care about are good games. Those are achievable with or without top tiers in a match. If players want to use top tiers, then by all means, do what you think will help you win. And there will always be top tiers, and top people trying to win will always gravitate to them.
@@azuresaiyan9005 I'm not your buddy and I don't have to stop responding to you. I didn't conflate anything that you said, because of what you said in the 2nd part of your original message is why I said what I said. That means, the devs might as well delete the characters that I mentioned from the game!!!! How many players did you see using Dhalsim, Zangief, Manon, Lily, & Kimberly at Capcom Cup X??? It's obviously a reason why the Tiers exist based on the Frame Data along with the Drive System that's busted for some Top Tier characters and the bottom Tiers can't abuse it at all in the same way 🤣🤣🤣🤣 It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure this out. I can careless that you didn't like my response to your message!! You made a statement talking trash about people who complain about over tiers usually aren't good enough when you don't have the info. on those players to backup what you said, so you gotta live with that right there 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤦🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️💨🥷⚔💯🔥🔥🔥🔥
28:46 LoL has tiers too
I mean... in tournament winning is what matters. But could you really say a person winning with lower tier doesn't make them more of a player? A Hugo or Q winning a third strike tournament would make them several degrees better than any Chun or Yun.
You’re right. But it’d be super hard to do it. We got it with Snake Eyez winning CPT West with Zangief and it was amazing. But in the end, at Capcom Cup, we saw what the weaker character resulted in.
Balancing a game is something everyone agrees with. Let's not tip toe around it by agreeing on both sides.
The failure in balance is actually a disservice to Mena because he would have won all those tournaments regardless (considering how only he is this consistent), but because of the imbalance, he is subject to the "carried" conversation.
Though I only suggest balance patches that affect top-level gameplay, to it needs careful analysis.
Game imbalances is forgivable for not competitive games... but for esport games, balance is a must. If we are going to call this a sport, we better treat it as one. In sports, the game rules are balanced.
You’re not wrong, but I also think you are severely underestimating just HOW difficult it is to balance a Fighting Game. Like Seth Killian once said, you can change Guile’s crMK and suddenly that turns Ibuki into the best character in the game. It is impossible for the devs to know exactly how strong their characters will be because people always discover things they didn’t expect or they underestimated how the meta of the game is gonna end up. So you can’t really call it a “failure in balance” because it’s a nigh impossible task to *succeed* in.
@@UltraChenTV Perhaps I can concede that some video games are impossible to balance perfectly.
The devs should just do what they can then, as I'm sure they already are.
Speaking of imbalance, maybe some imbalances are needed to limit the usage of characters that people hate playing against (mainly grapplers). Those imbalances are bad for the character, but good for business. I think I got the idea from you in a different video, I can't remember which one. Being a fellow Gief player myself, I understand and accept the challenge.
Yeah, it's widely understood that if the Grappler is the best character in a Fighting Game, everyone is miserable and you lose players. Hahaha. So Grapplers in general are typically balanced a bit weaker, it feels like. It's a little extreme here in SF6 with Manon, Gief, and Lily all being pretty low, so hopefully they do get SOME love in the next balance patch!
I completely disagree with what you said at the 29:35 mark. You said you have to work harder with manon at the lower levels than you do at the top level. This is the wrong way round. At the lower levels, the players aren't good enough to shut down manons tools. They will make loads of mistakes that the manon player can capitalise on. As the manon player levels up, they will see it become harder and harder due to their opponents making less and less mistakes so manons character short falls will become more apparent.
You are 100% right. I stated it pretty badly. My point was that as you continue to improve, it's very helpful to understand that any struggles you start running into, while Fighting Games are often touted as a genre where you need to really look deep within yourself and overcome obstacles, the struggles may not be ENTIRELY your fault. What I really meant by "lower levels" at this moment was "not the pros". Hahaha. Just worded it very badly, and again you're 100% right. Zangief, while potentially the worst character in the game, is certainly one of the easiest to win with at Rookie and Bronze. Capcom's data supports that: he was a 67% win rate at those ranks. So yeah, tiers don't matter at the lowest levels, but once you start growing into the intermediate levels, tier placements do start to rear their ugly heads.
I picked jp before he was top tier. I also picked Ryu before his buffs. I still play manon because she's fun. I don't really enjoy Ken or Luke tho I've tried them a bit.
I think great players owe it to themselves to play strong characters. I'll be honest, when people consistently pick weak characters I wonder if there's some unspoken reason that they want the back pocket excuse. Tokido is EVERYONE'S FAVORITE! And he's known for using strong characters, not that he's alone.
In my opinion, as Blankas strength is more and more apparent this should be seen as a BOON to menas skill not a knock. Look at what he did for this character! Moving a character up the tier list especially in the echo chamber of the fgc, that's a feat.
Edit - I don't think we need more outrage marketing.
Edit - people in twitch chats and Twitter do try to discredit because they have nothing of substance to say or offer. But they must be disregarded to stay sane in this day and age.
Snake eyes can also succeed with zangief because, while weak, he isn't an unwinnable character. I have seen comments saying literally he's a failure of design because he's unplayable weak and I think these people have misunderstood something somewhere because it's just not reality. Not to in any way take away from snake eyes. He has incredible skill.
Is that Nathan Summers
Sadly, no. He was actually named after Nathan Drake.
No. Do what you want.
pick a top tier
Kelly, Sanford.
@@junior1388666yep
I've been saying Blanca is going to be top after launch and it wasn't even including blanka chan shenanigans.
Yes 🗿🗿🗿
There is nothing wrong playing a top tier character. However, playing a character because it's top tier is sad
Is it wrong? No.
Are you less of a player? Yeah, kinda.
Same thing goes for hitbox, why? Because it's all about having an advantage over your opponent.
Hitbox has weaknesses that stick and pad don't have. You have nightmares about hitbox, huh? 😂😂😂
Punk should play sf5 not sf6
He pretty much still stuck at SF 5
Punk was probably the strongest SFV player from start to finish. The way we all played SFV was essentially because of Punk. I've often stated we were all playing Punk Fighter V at the end. It's really silly to try and discredit what he accomplished in that game. And he's still really good at SF6. SF6 is just young, so it has a lot of freshman quirks.
3rd at EVO, 3rd at that gamers8, 3rd at CEO, 2nd at LCQ. Punk is still one of the best in the world, and is the best American along with Du.
I started playing 3S. Instead of going Hugo, I went Chun. I just don't have it in me to go through the struggle all over again. I'm not ashamed of it. Funny enough, I do not see that many Chun players in 3S. Maybe I'll go Hugo one day, but as of right now, it's top tier all the way 😂
Gief's problem in 6 is that people aren't afraid to be next to him which is a total antithesis of his character archetype. People can jump at him too easily and people can pressure him on his wake up without fear of SPD. Which is why SF6 design is stupid. His SPD needs to be 0 frames and people should be grabbed instantly so they don't want to be next to him. He should always win the throw game. And yes, he should get more off of winning neutral. GH doesn't matter because parry exists in 6. Even as bad as he is in CVS2, he at least has those things going for him.
It's tough. Zangief is better in SF6 than we think he is, but he's still not great. LOL! But the fact that his defense is abysmal, worst in the game, is really a crime. Having an SPD that beats everything with 0 frames would actually be WAY too strong in the way a game like SF6 or SFV is designed. There are ways to mitigate it and be creative, but it would still be very difficult to do without making him broken. I still think he needs an OD Tundrastorm that just works like JP's OD Amnesia, but automatically puts the opponent far away and he gets no Oki. Except for maybe vs. Throws for fun. But it should not work on airborne attacks so he can't use it as an anti-air. But it should capture no matter what like Tundrastorm currently does. But if you do give him a 0 frame SPD, it has to have very small range and basically do no damage. Which I think would be funny as hell. Give him a 0 frame command throw that isn't the SPD that is like him just grabbing your face and shoving you away, no knockdown and doing like 500 damage? That would be funny and kinda cool.
no
i love play edgelords and it's not my problem what they happen to be top tiers
Wolverine, Rock Howard, Ken... who else? ^_^
@@UltraChenTV I dunno about that last example, Ken's not even close to Ed or Nash XD
You're right. Ken doesn't quite fit in there. Ed is a much better example. Raphael is also probably your favorite Ninja Turtle.
@@UltraChenTV oh yeah the edgy “top tier”, or close to, in 6, is probably Juri
SF6 is FULL of edgelords, and is in desperate needs of colourful fun characters.
Unpopular opinion: If you play top tier, high damage output characters and you claim to be great… you’re not.
If you play a low-tier character and excel it with amazing abilities (such as T. Hawk in Super Turbo), you are beyond talented and skilled than a top-tier player. Chen may think it is ok to never downplay top tier characters. Still, it is not ok to say that I will main Akuma and keep red-fireball loop my opponent to the corner and claim I am the best. Now, Dhalsim (in ST) is a high-tier character that does merit respect, because of SO MANY tools in his arsenal. Sagat, Boxer, Chun-Li or Claw, on the other hand, is not so much.
Again, I'm talking about right now. In SF6 in particular. I mentioned there are obvious egregious examples in older Fighting Games. I even explicitly mention Claw. I even mentioned CvS1 Nakoruru in my original Tweet. There's broken tier and then there's what we see as top tier today. And I said if a game has a broken character like Leroy was initially in Tekken 7, there's no reason to blame the player, at that point you blame the dev for causing a top 8 to have 7 out of 8 Leroys.