Every so often I come back to this video almost entirely for the "The stabby minion of Gargos is better than 90 percent of fighting game players; he has good footsies and he can anti air" line.
I think this is an interesting topic because, in my opinion, people are too quick to pray for nerfs instead of learning the matchup. People don't understand that it takes time for a meta to develop.
These characters have been around for years... I get that people should have to learn and improve their decision-making but Jesus this shits ridiculous
@@theWIIISEguy the first game I started playing online was Injustice 2 and I hate bane because all the armor. I always seem to do bad against grapplers, but I now know the reasons why I did bad. I still suck but I know they aren’t broken. I hate grapplers (they’re cool to see when it’s not against me)
@@jabfsmash jiggly puff is only a threat because shes not meta so most ppl dont know how to deal with her options... If everyone played fox then someone grab lets say shiek out of no where then shiek would be the center of this. Ppl see puffs buttons and go nah she aint worth hbox saw it and was like i can work with this
The way I see it there are some people who think they deserve to win more based solely on learning a complex character. Like, they learn their high execution combos, get into a match and then lose to a May doing ten dolphins in a row and instead of wondering why they went to seaworld without a poncho they complain and refuse to think about what they did wrong
Jack-O greatly enriches the game, the whole idea is to make the game as diverse as possible, with characters that force you to have a completely new approach. All guilty gear characters are unique, there is no set "guilty gear" therefore.
I want to main Jack-O and you won't see me backskating when I say right now that I agree. Though still a noob when it comes to FGs I am starting to notice that people bash on setup characters AFTER they have their setup. If they get cornerlocked before making the setup then its fine though.
Not once is it mentioned that Jack-O' has to re-summon level one houses if they get destroyed. Jack-O' is being talked about as if she instantly pops down level three houses and goes to town.
The discussion is about why it's hated, not whether it's fair/balanced or not. Plenty of technically balanced characters can still be frustrating to play against simply because of how it feels to play against them when they do well. That's why he brings up Jigglypuff in melee - puff isn't overpowered, basically only one person can play it at the highest level. But the character is hated because of how "lame" gameplay against a dominant Jighlypuff feels. Whether you think those impressions are worthwhile or just people being whiny (I personally have no stake in it), it's still interesting to explore why this happens mechanically.
Also when he was comparing to Gargos he mentioned how many hits the minions take and how minions are replaced, and he mentions destroying houses as a strategy. I think he just forgot to mention the specifics of those mechanics for Jack O.
As a KI player & Cinder main, I struggled a lot with Gargos. However, like any character people have a mental block against, there are ways to win even if it is extremely difficult at first. Wheels would body my Cinder free with Gargos frequently & it sucked. But there are ways to win. People need to explore the character & matchup more. Great analysis.
I'm glad this is a topic of conversation brought up. Although this comment is incredibly late since this video upload, I'm someone who really likes new unique characters that break the mold like Jack-O and other summons. It's always been difficult to properly balance characters that break the mold, Vega who I play in street fighter is a great example of that from his history in other fighting games being either way to strong or far to weak.
It might be because I’m just now getting into gear but pretty much every fighting game I play doesn’t really have a summon character like Gargos or jack-o. But I’ve watched a lot of tournament sets with the two of them but I genuinely don’t think there’s anything wrong with the characters. I actually enjoy watching both of them in tourney
To be honest, Jack-O needs to be buffed. Most of her organ options are garbage and her house setup is one dimensional. house throw needs more directional options and house levels need to stand out more with actual attack levels.
Bro she's gets blown the fuck up by most characters pressure. Idky people would choose to be mad because others excel with a character that's unique or different.
Not to mention that she barely has any combos once you have a single minion out, because at some point, no combos become salaveable; a single dude poking your enemy or shooting them with magic ruins anything that isn't a B&B aircombo. And sometimes even those are ruined by minions and you can lose your HKD because they let them tech on the way down. It was the one thing that cost me so many games against friends. I'm honestly happier with her Strive iteration as some who likes combos, but Xrd is still incredibly unique.
I think a lot of the strength of summon characters & thus the hate comes from the frustration factor. Especially in the case of non controlled summons in many fighting games, is that when using a more traditional footsie characters it's like facing a zoner turned up to 11. Like the summoner plays keep away, interrupt & avoid but the active frames that are punishing the opponent aren't being controlled by you. Imagine getting hit by hadokens repeatedly from random inputs the opponent did 15 seconds ago. Damn right it's frustrating. That being said I really think it leads to interesting decisions during play & overall does add to the genre
Well that's the thing, summon characters force you to play in a way that many people neglect, because they think that complaining about summon characters will make them go away.
@@capnbarky2682 Are characters even well-equipped to deal with summons, though? And is there even any downside to using summons? And do summoners have other powerful options?
@@CarbonRollerCaco Summoners are a subset of "set up" characters. They usually have extremely weak normals and specials and depend on setting up traps, summoning minions, etc. They have a blanket weakness of being weak without their setups, so characters that can close the gap and keep close to them will have a big advantage. Overall they're not very objectively strong, but they can seem very overwhelming in the hands of very creative players since they can very quickly snowball games. In guilty gear almost every character has some sort of rushdown and counter hit game, so Jack-O and May never really ever see the top of the tier lists.
@@capnbarky2682 Fair, and I don't play super-competitively myself, but it sounds like summoners can get a lot of breathing room and ample opportunity to read their opponents, plus a summon's AI and how they interact with their summoner and other summons are whole other things to study on top of everything else, so you may have to lab a summoner extra hard to know what to do, even if they're technically balanced.
A situational argument. The player has to earn this progression and it's your job to not let them setup. And when they do there are rules to engagement in which you can still make decisions. The frustration comes from not being willing to trade off or use a select set if options. Instead preferring to do what you want. You don't lose agency, as much as you just have to respect their archetype like you would any other. With the appropriate answers. It's the illusion of difficulty and how much agency either play has. People feel there's an imbalance in that character favor. Hence the frustration. Meanwhile the character still isn't the worst to play against or the scariest to deal with at any level.
People hate them because they take them out of their comfort zone. They can't run their standard gameplay on then and have play the matchup in a more dynamic way. These are the same people that play characters that can take 70% health in one combo and have unlockable setups in the corner complaining about a character that needs time to set up any kind of real threat and loses it all in an instant. Sneeze on Jack-O and open her up and even level 3 houses are a non-issue. People hate dealing with challenges like Baiken with counters, Potemkin with grabs and Axl with long ranged attacks. Their phonics-level gameplay of rushdown/knockdown/Okizeme isn't enough or projectile-based neutral isn't working? Naw bitch, Aegis fucking Shield! Come at me with a more diverse plan. Do they want everyone to be a shoto character or something?
Its disjointed damage. We hate them for the same reason we hate safe projectile spam. It's not even overpowered, it's just not a fun playstyle to get matched up against. At least with a traditional zoner, there are generally very strong punishes. I can watch my enemy, get a good read, and get in there. Because summons don't cost the player disadvantage, or need to be timed to punish so they just "come out". Its fucking frustrating, especially if the summons can't be cancelled with damage, or something. On top of having turning the stage into an iron maiden, they often have links with minions, and that can mean getting combod right out of your own combo. _People hate them because they take them out of their comfort zone._ Yeah no. Summons have been around for over 10 years, you're not fooling anyone. I remember Eddie and that shit was fucked, and he's probably one of the more tame summons. I'd rather play the qudans of guilty gear playing Johnny than a gargos at my level. He's just fucking obnoxious and takes the fun out of playing from my side. I'd rather die in literally 1 hit/combo than deal with the fucking iron maiden that prevents me from even using all these combos I've memorized.
@@mustysmells817 Imagine playing against "super armor the character" in a combo oriented fighter, and being told, 'bruh, why aren'tchu havin' fun?' That, and the ability to fish relentlessly are the parts _I personally_ do not like about summons. Summons can be great, I just don't like cheese.
you probably thought cannon rushing in starcraft was strategic dynamic gameplay >.> it's not, it's just cheese, the antithesis of fun. it's not that dynamic, it's not that strategic, it's just something you can do while taking little to no risk for a high reward with minimal available counterplay, aka cheap. there's nothing fun about fighting a kabal in mk9 you literally just inch up and block for 80% of the round timer because there's no actual counterplay to his projectiles there's nothing fun about an unblockable on wakeup setup there's nothing fun about a touch of death combo that can be hit confirmed from practically any move hit anywhere on the screen there's nothing fun about any meterless move that covers a ton of options but has no reasonable counterplay or punish window there's nothing fun about getting hit out of a successful punish or clean earned hit by something your opponent didn't even press in a 1v1 game (summons) you however take issue with getting hit and combo'd by someone who actually earned an honest clean hit on you with their own hands and brain though, which is strange, because that actually is fair. people don't want everyone to be a shoto, but they're generally well liked because they're reasonably balanced, honest characters that don't revolve around gimmicks. don't hate on shotos just because you can't block, anti-air, or keep yourself away from corners, you had every chance to outplay that standard, straight forward, one dimensional, phonics-level gameplay and you failed because you weren't good enough.
Jack-o NEEDS the minions, without them she´s not a viable character, the punishment for either hitting Jack-o destroying the houses is: no minnions. Nobody would seriously suggest Jack-o is OP.
If only Jack-O's minions was as reliable as Stabby. Even Jack-O hates how her minions ruin things for her often times. It looks so nice that Gargos summons stay around between rounds lolz Jack-O has to resummon per round.
I think for summon character, they're hated probably cause a summon character in terms of fighting games, is relatively new, like sure there are characters like say ginyu in figherZ who use other characters for a attack or 2, but generally speaking, characters that more rely on summoning other Ai enemies to do the job like gargos or jackO arn't that common as suppose to say. A zoner or a grappler, and those 2 in particular are dangerous in their own right by themselves, so it kinda puts the other player in the situation where they either have to get rid of the minions, or deal with the character
I feel like jack-o is at least more balanced since after the house is destroyed she can't place it again, and she can only place a single house of a type with (i think) 3 different types of houses.
Didnt knew people hated Jack O but her character design and gameplay was the only reason I discovered the game and is looking forward to buy GG 2020 lol.
Jack-O won’t be in Strive sadly. The events in the Xrd story means she can’t be. There could be a character with a similar play style, but no idea how that could work with the wall break mechanic.
Eh, I would disagree that Johnny is cancer. His options are pretty amazing but his execution is extremely hard, and the fact of the matter is if he was that good then potemkin wouldn't have won that one arcrevo.
Captain Barky tournament wins don’t dictate how good a character is. Just because Potemkin won doesn’t mean he isn’t low tier and Johnny isn’t top tier
@@jugemujugemu4690 Okay sure, but it does mean that the tiers are too close for that to even matter. Ppl constantly fellate Johnny's broken-ness despite almost no one being able to actually play him consistently at that level. Johnny might be theoretically top tier but it's very rare to see him at a high level, since his execution heavy playstyle can be inconsistent even for pros. You should watch Omito vs Haaken first to 10.
Johnny is like the ultimate theory character. Hands down one of the best but requires the player to be a robot to maximize. I think it's a interesting balance.
Have these people actually fought Jack-O? Her Gimmick is super punishable. What you really have to worry about her is her strong neutral that allows her to whip out great combos with some of the easiest inputs in the game. Like Ramlethal most people who main her don't even use her gimmick that often, relying instead on her strong normals.
I think Jack-O is more of a meme honestly, although if I were to hate one thing about her, it'd be her relative safety for the kind of stressful playstyle she enforces on the other player. She get's to an invulnerable reversal, which while meter-dependent, is relatively cheap and gets to soak projectiles. It makes for an annoying game, where she can set houses and play keepaway, but catching her also doesn't feel satisfying, because she can reverse relatively easy and defends from zoning. She isn't the worst. I've fought against worse, but she can be quite irritating.
0.0 Teddy was a summon character? I mean, I guess if the summons were more like fireballs and exceedingly limited (albeit random *even* to the Teddy player, that was supposedly the balance.) in lifespan. I never looked at it that way but I guess it would depend on what he yanked out of himself. :3
@@mikejonesnoreally nah he is a gimmick character like Faust on GG he throws items wich have different functions but different from faust i think u can see whats he gonna throw on the bottom of the screen there is an indicator of it, unlike faudt iiec wich is truly rng and the players have to know and react to wht he throws
@@gman8D1 Super late reply, apologies. But nah. You can't see Teddie's next item on the bottom of the screen BUT they always come out in the same order. You CAN see Platinum's next item on the bottom tho.
Nappa is not on the same level as any other suommon character. His summon has 3 attacks max, which are all mids, and if you hit him during the start-up of the summon, they don't hatch until he recovers. And unlike some of the other summon characters like Jack-O, he is terrible without Saibamen, which is the real crux of the issue, and what makes Nappa a relatively good summon character. It also makes him bad by consequence, but eh..
@@minimonkeymasher8888 it’s not a specific sequence, first off. Second off, no. It’s literally 6. If you don’t know anything about my main why are you trying to preach him to me?
@@owlflame whether or not you're wrong is irrelevant (literally just check Nappas dustloop or hop into training mode for 2 minutes, 90% of which is loading time). That does not change the original point of the comment, being that Nappa isn't as bad as Jack-O and Gargos because he's an actual summon character.
It's weird that summon characters in smash seem to have the opposite in terms of AI controlled vs. player controlled. Nana is the worst, while Luma actually broken. It seems to be up to the specifics of AI, damage, etc which one feels less fair.
It's hard for me to consider Ice Climbers as a summon character, since getting rid of Nana will cause major problems for Popo because you can't resummon her
Ultimate and Melee Nana are super stupid. Brawl Nana was definately the smartest version of Nana , but even then. You're trying de-sync them anyways sooo...
These conversations *really* make me wanna' play more than one fighting game. :3 Gargos sounds *so* cooooool! "Okay Carl you can stop skulking in the corner now, mean man gone. 0.0 Don't look at me like that, you know he's *right.* By the way, yo' daddy ain't much better!" :3
I think "summon characters" as a concept even outside of fighting games are just more disliked than straightforward fighters. Nothing honorable about sitting on your ass ordering your goons to do the fighting _for_ you. The experience about playing against those kinda characters and experience it for yourself only makes them more frustrating
Nothing honourable about defensive characters sitting in their ass blocking. Nothing honourable about grapplers waiting for that one grab to turn the fight. Nothing honourable about zoners. Nothing honourable about high mobility characters that can run away for long amount of time. The honour argument has been abused by players that seem to think their way of playing the game is the correct way and if you do not play that way you lack honour. Truth is ,like Sajam said , different playstiles bring more depth to the game.
There's also nothing honorable about sucker punching your opponent as soon as they stand up and yet this is the most important part of most rushdown characters.
"The stabby minion of Gargos is better than 90 percent of fighting game players; he has good footsies and he can anti air."
FGC put on blast lmao
@Royal Sutton Instablaster =)
Clearly what needs to happen is we get a GG x KI 2v2 tag game so that people can fight Jack-o and Gargos at the same time.
That's him officer! This madman right here is talking nonsense
honestly that sounds like a fun game
Every so often I come back to this video almost entirely for the "The stabby minion of Gargos is better than 90 percent of fighting game players; he has good footsies and he can anti air" line.
Same. It's too good.
I think this is an interesting topic because, in my opinion, people are too quick to pray for nerfs instead of learning the matchup. People don't understand that it takes time for a meta to develop.
These characters have been around for years... I get that people should have to learn and improve their decision-making but Jesus this shits ridiculous
@@2000Doriyas What's ridiculous? Jack-O is just fine.
@@theWIIISEguy Gargos is also just fine. I’m not sure what the problem is.
@@EnderTitan The unwillingness to study, adapt or admit a lack of experience, knowledge and or skill.
@@theWIIISEguy the first game I started playing online was Injustice 2 and I hate bane because all the armor. I always seem to do bad against grapplers, but I now know the reasons why I did bad. I still suck but I know they aren’t broken. I hate grapplers (they’re cool to see when it’s not against me)
The worst summon character is definitely customized Dragunov with his toy tank.
You make thanking subs a freaking art form.
Soooo much smoother than most streamers
"There's high execution characters in Melee, and then there's Jigglypuff." That got me way more than it should have lol
Meh jigglypuff is mehkay. shes not a threat.
Yun Kurayami..............have you ever heard of hungrybox
yeah and meh jiggly puff isnt a threat.
@@Yun_Kurayami how about now, is puff a threat now
@@jabfsmash jiggly puff is only a threat because shes not meta so most ppl dont know how to deal with her options...
If everyone played fox then someone grab lets say shiek out of no where then shiek would be the center of this. Ppl see puffs buttons and go nah she aint worth hbox saw it and was like i can work with this
The way I see it there are some people who think they deserve to win more based solely on learning a complex character. Like, they learn their high execution combos, get into a match and then lose to a May doing ten dolphins in a row and instead of wondering why they went to seaworld without a poncho they complain and refuse to think about what they did wrong
Jack-O greatly enriches the game, the whole idea is to make the game as diverse as possible, with characters that force you to have a completely new approach. All guilty gear characters are unique, there is no set "guilty gear" therefore.
^Found the Jack-O main
@@dylanh.3793 Bedman main actually, but I really hate prejudice against characters.
@@botero01 People on the internet swear they know everything. And when you call em out you get "I was just joking" or "Don't take it so seriously."
I want to main Jack-O and you won't see me backskating when I say right now that I agree. Though still a noob when it comes to FGs I am starting to notice that people bash on setup characters AFTER they have their setup. If they get cornerlocked before making the setup then its fine though.
@@dylanh.3793 Hey, Jack-O is really fun to play and is easy on the eyes. Not being fun to fight against is my opponents problem.
Not once is it mentioned that Jack-O' has to re-summon level one houses if they get destroyed. Jack-O' is being talked about as if she instantly pops down level three houses and goes to town.
The discussion is about why it's hated, not whether it's fair/balanced or not. Plenty of technically balanced characters can still be frustrating to play against simply because of how it feels to play against them when they do well.
That's why he brings up Jigglypuff in melee - puff isn't overpowered, basically only one person can play it at the highest level. But the character is hated because of how "lame" gameplay against a dominant Jighlypuff feels.
Whether you think those impressions are worthwhile or just people being whiny (I personally have no stake in it), it's still interesting to explore why this happens mechanically.
Also when he was comparing to Gargos he mentioned how many hits the minions take and how minions are replaced, and he mentions destroying houses as a strategy. I think he just forgot to mention the specifics of those mechanics for Jack O.
Also 9:09 kinda covers the general impact of the mechanic regardless of the specifics.
@@IronicHavoc I'm confident this comment was about Sajams video. But the topic in general. More specifically a response to a general consensus.
@@IronicHavoc ye just look at grapplers
Now i have this dream to see Nappa win a Major and people say "that's not true Fighterz, it's just Nappa" hahhahahhahahaha
As a KI player & Cinder main, I struggled a lot with Gargos. However, like any character people have a mental block against, there are ways to win even if it is extremely difficult at first. Wheels would body my Cinder free with Gargos frequently & it sucked. But there are ways to win. People need to explore the character & matchup more. Great analysis.
ILLusion You just reminded me of when Gargos is in Stoneskin and Cinder just melts his health bar with inferno. Man KI is tight
I remember when Gargos came out and I said, "This and that."
I bet you'll cherish that memory forever. Such an iconic moment.
I'm glad this is a topic of conversation brought up. Although this comment is incredibly late since this video upload, I'm someone who really likes new unique characters that break the mold like Jack-O and other summons. It's always been difficult to properly balance characters that break the mold, Vega who I play in street fighter is a great example of that from his history in other fighting games being either way to strong or far to weak.
Brb imma learn Jack-O just to spite them.
911 YES HELLO
Same
It might be because I’m just now getting into gear but pretty much every fighting game I play doesn’t really have a summon character like Gargos or jack-o. But I’ve watched a lot of tournament sets with the two of them but I genuinely don’t think there’s anything wrong with the characters. I actually enjoy watching both of them in tourney
Yeah and Jack-O tends to get stomped on from some of what I've seen.
Nobody tell him about Nero in melty or the gig is up
I mean.. Nero is a zoner, his minions doesnt really stay tho
To be honest, Jack-O needs to be buffed. Most of her organ options are garbage and her house setup is one dimensional. house throw needs more directional options and house levels need to stand out more with actual attack levels.
Bro she's gets blown the fuck up by most characters pressure. Idky people would choose to be mad because others excel with a character that's unique or different.
I see jack-o as the "fuck it" character, someone you choose when you want to have a fun time regardless if you win or lose. Like orks in warhammer
Not to mention that she barely has any combos once you have a single minion out, because at some point, no combos become salaveable; a single dude poking your enemy or shooting them with magic ruins anything that isn't a B&B aircombo. And sometimes even those are ruined by minions and you can lose your HKD because they let them tech on the way down. It was the one thing that cost me so many games against friends. I'm honestly happier with her Strive iteration as some who likes combos, but Xrd is still incredibly unique.
I think a lot of the strength of summon characters & thus the hate comes from the frustration factor. Especially in the case of non controlled summons in many fighting games, is that when using a more traditional footsie characters it's like facing a zoner turned up to 11. Like the summoner plays keep away, interrupt & avoid but the active frames that are punishing the opponent aren't being controlled by you. Imagine getting hit by hadokens repeatedly from random inputs the opponent did 15 seconds ago. Damn right it's frustrating. That being said I really think it leads to interesting decisions during play & overall does add to the genre
Well that's the thing, summon characters force you to play in a way that many people neglect, because they think that complaining about summon characters will make them go away.
@@capnbarky2682 Are characters even well-equipped to deal with summons, though? And is there even any downside to using summons? And do summoners have other powerful options?
@@CarbonRollerCaco Summoners are a subset of "set up" characters. They usually have extremely weak normals and specials and depend on setting up traps, summoning minions, etc.
They have a blanket weakness of being weak without their setups, so characters that can close the gap and keep close to them will have a big advantage. Overall they're not very objectively strong, but they can seem very overwhelming in the hands of very creative players since they can very quickly snowball games.
In guilty gear almost every character has some sort of rushdown and counter hit game, so Jack-O and May never really ever see the top of the tier lists.
@@capnbarky2682 Fair, and I don't play super-competitively myself, but it sounds like summoners can get a lot of breathing room and ample opportunity to read their opponents, plus a summon's AI and how they interact with their summoner and other summons are whole other things to study on top of everything else, so you may have to lab a summoner extra hard to know what to do, even if they're technically balanced.
A situational argument. The player has to earn this progression and it's your job to not let them setup. And when they do there are rules to engagement in which you can still make decisions.
The frustration comes from not being willing to trade off or use a select set if options. Instead preferring to do what you want. You don't lose agency, as much as you just have to respect their archetype like you would any other. With the appropriate answers.
It's the illusion of difficulty and how much agency either play has. People feel there's an imbalance in that character favor. Hence the frustration.
Meanwhile the character still isn't the worst to play against or the scariest to deal with at any level.
People hate them because they take them out of their comfort zone. They can't run their standard gameplay on then and have play the matchup in a more dynamic way. These are the same people that play characters that can take 70% health in one combo and have unlockable setups in the corner complaining about a character that needs time to set up any kind of real threat and loses it all in an instant. Sneeze on Jack-O and open her up and even level 3 houses are a non-issue. People hate dealing with challenges like Baiken with counters, Potemkin with grabs and Axl with long ranged attacks. Their phonics-level gameplay of rushdown/knockdown/Okizeme isn't enough or projectile-based neutral isn't working? Naw bitch, Aegis fucking Shield! Come at me with a more diverse plan.
Do they want everyone to be a shoto character or something?
Its disjointed damage. We hate them for the same reason we hate safe projectile spam. It's not even overpowered, it's just not a fun playstyle to get matched up against. At least with a traditional zoner, there are generally very strong punishes. I can watch my enemy, get a good read, and get in there. Because summons don't cost the player disadvantage, or need to be timed to punish so they just "come out". Its fucking frustrating, especially if the summons can't be cancelled with damage, or something. On top of having turning the stage into an iron maiden, they often have links with minions, and that can mean getting combod right out of your own combo.
_People hate them because they take them out of their comfort zone._
Yeah no. Summons have been around for over 10 years, you're not fooling anyone. I remember Eddie and that shit was fucked, and he's probably one of the more tame summons. I'd rather play the qudans of guilty gear playing Johnny than a gargos at my level. He's just fucking obnoxious and takes the fun out of playing from my side. I'd rather die in literally 1 hit/combo than deal with the fucking iron maiden that prevents me from even using all these combos I've memorized.
@@shoopoop21
"Do they want everyone to be a shoto character or something?"
lmao im ded
@@mustysmells817 Imagine playing against "super armor the character" in a combo oriented fighter, and being told, 'bruh, why aren'tchu havin' fun?' That, and the ability to fish relentlessly are the parts _I personally_ do not like about summons.
Summons can be great, I just don't like cheese.
@@mustysmells817 To be fair, I prefer my fighting games pretty unga bunga
you probably thought cannon rushing in starcraft was strategic dynamic gameplay >.>
it's not, it's just cheese, the antithesis of fun.
it's not that dynamic, it's not that strategic, it's just something you can do while taking little to no risk for a high reward with minimal available counterplay, aka cheap.
there's nothing fun about fighting a kabal in mk9 you literally just inch up and block for 80% of the round timer because there's no actual counterplay to his projectiles
there's nothing fun about an unblockable on wakeup setup
there's nothing fun about a touch of death combo that can be hit confirmed from practically any move hit anywhere on the screen
there's nothing fun about any meterless move that covers a ton of options but has no reasonable counterplay or punish window
there's nothing fun about getting hit out of a successful punish or clean earned hit by something your opponent didn't even press in a 1v1 game (summons)
you however take issue with getting hit and combo'd by someone who actually earned an honest clean hit on you with their own hands and brain though, which is strange, because that actually is fair.
people don't want everyone to be a shoto, but they're generally well liked because they're reasonably balanced, honest characters that don't revolve around gimmicks.
don't hate on shotos just because you can't block, anti-air, or keep yourself away from corners, you had every chance to outplay that standard, straight forward, one dimensional, phonics-level gameplay and you failed because you weren't good enough.
Jack o was the first gg character i tried shes mad fun
Jack-o NEEDS the minions, without them she´s not a viable character, the punishment for either hitting Jack-o destroying the houses is: no minnions. Nobody would seriously suggest Jack-o is OP.
picked GGXrd yesterday, started playing Jack -O Fun times.
No regrets
I totally agree. Great talk, Sajam!
Devo from jojo heritage for the future is the best puppet character
Damn I would like a summon character in granblue.
You got your wish in Zooey.
I loved Jacko so much. I'm sad there will not be a character like her in who knows how much time
13:55 had me good
I wish you showed what you talk about, it would make it easier to understand.
God, i love this discussion so much this is s save for sure
“-and then theres jigglypuff” LMAO
Damn this video is such a golden nugget. It's like a fucking discovery chanel's documentary.
If only Jack-O's minions was as reliable as Stabby. Even Jack-O hates how her minions ruin things for her often times. It looks so nice that Gargos summons stay around between rounds lolz Jack-O has to resummon per round.
Jacko needs buff!
@@INCA_ True
yeah let’s go Jack-O
I used to hate summon characters thought they were very easy, but trying to learn them and play them is a completely different story
I love summon characters, traps and summons, love em.
Since we only see Sajam talking here: Maybe get the Twitch chat on screen? I don't think it adds that much value but its better than having nothing.
I think for summon character, they're hated probably cause a summon character in terms of fighting games, is relatively new, like sure there are characters like say ginyu in figherZ who use other characters for a attack or 2, but generally speaking, characters that more rely on summoning other Ai enemies to do the job like gargos or jackO arn't that common as suppose to say. A zoner or a grappler, and those 2 in particular are dangerous in their own right by themselves, so it kinda puts the other player in the situation where they either have to get rid of the minions, or deal with the character
14:40
"The stabby minion of Gargos..."
I feel like jack-o is at least more balanced since after the house is destroyed she can't place it again, and she can only place a single house of a type with (i think) 3 different types of houses.
Didnt knew people hated Jack O but her character design and gameplay was the only reason I discovered the game and is looking forward to buy GG 2020 lol.
Jack-O won’t be in Strive sadly. The events in the Xrd story means she can’t be.
There could be a character with a similar play style, but no idea how that could work with the wall break mechanic.
@@udderhippo haha
I dont know what the problem is, Gargwas have never done anything but lay eggs
Here rewatching this after recent Guilty Gear announcements
Gargos also has really, really good fucking buttons. Every button is really good.
This reminds me of techies in dota, god damn fuck that hero.
you thought you had the combo going then minon coming for you 😂😂😂😂
I like Jack-o
Ginyu doesn't seem to be hated
The Ginyu force don't permanently fight alongside him until killed, though.
Ah, man. I love summon characters. I mean, I get it. I'm just sadistic.
Jack-O, is cancer for the game.
Have these people fought a high level Johnny? lol
Eh, I would disagree that Johnny is cancer. His options are pretty amazing but his execution is extremely hard, and the fact of the matter is if he was that good then potemkin wouldn't have won that one arcrevo.
Captain Barky tournament wins don’t dictate how good a character is.
Just because Potemkin won doesn’t mean he isn’t low tier and Johnny isn’t top tier
@@jugemujugemu4690 Okay sure, but it does mean that the tiers are too close for that to even matter. Ppl constantly fellate Johnny's broken-ness despite almost no one being able to actually play him consistently at that level.
Johnny might be theoretically top tier but it's very rare to see him at a high level, since his execution heavy playstyle can be inconsistent even for pros. You should watch Omito vs Haaken first to 10.
Johnny is like the ultimate theory character. Hands down one of the best but requires the player to be a robot to maximize. I think it's a interesting balance.
Have these people actually fought Jack-O? Her Gimmick is super punishable. What you really have to worry about her is her strong neutral that allows her to whip out great combos with some of the easiest inputs in the game. Like Ramlethal most people who main her don't even use her gimmick that often, relying instead on her strong normals.
all these videos that mention ki makes me wanna pick up the game
Is Rachel a summon character? :D
She's a zoner.
@@GunslingProductions But GEORGE
@@wt_neptune54 that is a very good point. But that would be like calling makoto a shoto because she has a dp. Lol
Wait bad example because makoto has a fireball too...
Yes Rachel is a summon character. Lmao
Gargos is beautiful
I think Jack-O is more of a meme honestly, although if I were to hate one thing about her, it'd be her relative safety for the kind of stressful playstyle she enforces on the other player. She get's to an invulnerable reversal, which while meter-dependent, is relatively cheap and gets to soak projectiles. It makes for an annoying game, where she can set houses and play keepaway, but catching her also doesn't feel satisfying, because she can reverse relatively easy and defends from zoning. She isn't the worst. I've fought against worse, but she can be quite irritating.
Summons=mega-weird projectiles.
Ummm........Summon characters is the entirety of Persona?!?!?!?
Plus I hated Teddy in P4A and in ultimax
0.0 Teddy was a summon character? I mean, I guess if the summons were more like fireballs and exceedingly limited (albeit random *even* to the Teddy player, that was supposedly the balance.) in lifespan. I never looked at it that way but I guess it would depend on what he yanked out of himself. :3
@@mikejonesnoreally nah he is a gimmick character like Faust on GG he throws items wich have different functions but different from faust i think u can see whats he gonna throw on the bottom of the screen there is an indicator of it, unlike faudt iiec wich is truly rng and the players have to know and react to wht he throws
@@gman8D1 Super late reply, apologies. But nah. You can't see Teddie's next item on the bottom of the screen BUT they always come out in the same order. You CAN see Platinum's next item on the bottom tho.
As a Nappa main... I don't see the problem.
Nappa is not on the same level as any other suommon character.
His summon has 3 attacks max, which are all mids, and if you hit him during the start-up of the summon, they don't hatch until he recovers.
And unlike some of the other summon characters like Jack-O, he is terrible without Saibamen, which is the real crux of the issue, and what makes Nappa a relatively good summon character. It also makes him bad by consequence, but eh..
@@minimonkeymasher8888 it’s actually 6 max...
@@owlflame bro, its 3. 4 if you spend meter and use a specific sequence.
@@minimonkeymasher8888 it’s not a specific sequence, first off. Second off, no. It’s literally 6. If you don’t know anything about my main why are you trying to preach him to me?
@@owlflame whether or not you're wrong is irrelevant (literally just check Nappas dustloop or hop into training mode for 2 minutes, 90% of which is loading time). That does not change the original point of the comment, being that Nappa isn't as bad as Jack-O and Gargos because he's an actual summon character.
Just checking in from the future. Turns out Jack-o actually did kill the game. What is guilty gear?
The reason people attack summon characters is the same reason people bully...
I HATE YOU COZ UR NOT LIKE THE REST OF US
9:10 FGC characters don’t have many attacks that hit BOTH SIDES, huh?
I'd play jack-O (lie) if I could remove that dang-tootin mask.
Well you can now so start labbing
14:40 lmao
Is sub zero a minion character?! hmm 🤔
Smack brothers???
It's weird that summon characters in smash seem to have the opposite in terms of AI controlled vs. player controlled. Nana is the worst, while Luma actually broken. It seems to be up to the specifics of AI, damage, etc which one feels less fair.
It's hard for me to consider Ice Climbers as a summon character, since getting rid of Nana will cause major problems for Popo because you can't resummon her
Tbh Ice Climbers are way more puppet, with Nana typically doing the same thing as Popo but able to do separate actions through desyncing.
Ultimate and Melee Nana are super stupid. Brawl Nana was definately the smartest version of Nana , but even then. You're trying de-sync them anyways sooo...
These conversations *really* make me wanna' play more than one fighting game. :3 Gargos sounds *so* cooooool! "Okay Carl you can stop skulking in the corner now, mean man gone. 0.0 Don't look at me like that, you know he's *right.* By the way, yo' daddy ain't much better!" :3
Nobody likes Jack-o.
There’s dozens of us!
I love Jack-O. There are more of us, we will die on this hill
I think "summon characters" as a concept even outside of fighting games are just more disliked than straightforward fighters. Nothing honorable about sitting on your ass ordering your goons to do the fighting _for_ you. The experience about playing against those kinda characters and experience it for yourself only makes them more frustrating
Nothing honourable about defensive characters sitting in their ass blocking. Nothing honourable about grapplers waiting for that one grab to turn the fight. Nothing honourable about zoners. Nothing honourable about high mobility characters that can run away for long amount of time.
The honour argument has been abused by players that seem to think their way of playing the game is the correct way and if you do not play that way you lack honour. Truth is ,like Sajam said , different playstiles bring more depth to the game.
@@gigiobb bro for real when people say "its not honourable to..." i immediately think of the scrub prayer.
No throws allowed and you have to go back to full screen when you knock me down. The only honorable way to play.
There's also nothing honorable about sucker punching your opponent as soon as they stand up and yet this is the most important part of most rushdown characters.
Honour is the most used word among scrubs, in any game