Me 262 Full Analysis: Why It Could NEVER have Changed WWII
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Play War Thunder for Free on PC or Console today: wtplay.link/ca...
Discover why the legendary Me 262 jet fighter was destined to fail in altering the course of WWII. In this video, I dive into newly uncovered data and in-depth analysis to reveal the stark reality versus the speculation. See how timing, logistics, and strategic missteps sealed its fate. Don’t miss this eye-opening breakdown of the Me 262’s true impact on history!
💗 If you'd like to support my channel please follow this link for more details: calibanrising....
You can also now find me on Patreon: / calibanrising
🧥 Want to get a great deal on an authentic leather flying jacket? Check out the range from Legendary USA here: calibanrising....
🎁 Grab one of my unique WW2-themed designs. great on t-shirts, hoodies or mugs: bit.ly/3GLPNBJ
Wishlist: amzn.to/385dXHD
⏱️ Timestamp:
0:00 intro
Images: other than where stated, images used in the video have been found on commons.wikime...
#aviationhistory#history
Play War Thunder for Free on PC or Console today: wtplay.link/calibanrising
Please sort out the whearboo trols such as dr bmw in your comments, it realy loweres the standards of your channel.
@@thomasbaker6563 Thanks for the heads up. I'll review it and if these comments go beyond lively debate I can block them from the channel.
Proximity fuzes. The real wonder weapon 😄
The Me-262 was the most revolutionary aircraft in the history of Aviation since the Wright Flyer... it rendered all propeller-driven fighters completely obsolete
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerkethe Meteor was flying operationally before the 262 was, the 262 wasn't that unique
@@kirotheavenger60 The Gloster Meatbox did not enter operational squadron service with the RAF until July 27 1944... 3 months after the Me-262.
the Me-262 was unique in that it was the only effective combat fighter to see service during WW2... the Gloster Meatbox only killed British pilots during WW2.
@@kirotheavenger60 Don't waste your energy, I've seen this guy in other parts of this comments section, it's not worth it.
@@yashkasheriff9325 Just the facts here kid... no one is going to pin a medal on you for trashing the Germans now, the war ended 79 year ago!
It was a lot easier for German military personnel to blame a shortage of “wonder weapons” for their defeat in WWII rather than in the wider strategic, logistical and geopolitical challenges that, in hindsight, undermined them.
No one, not even Hitler expected that the british would surrender to the Americans in September 1940...
The 262 wasn't a wonder weapon but an evolutionary design for fighter aircraft. History proved their development right. Also similar aircraft of the same period from the UK or US. Apart from that, making specific weapon systems responsible for the course and outcomes of wars is extremely short sighted. And that applies to pretty much every bigger war. WW2 was won by the side with the better and bigger resources. No superior weapon or any number of superior weapons would have changed that. Only the duration of the war.
@@wanderschlosser1857 The Me-262 was the most revolutionary aircraft in aviation history since the Wright Flyer, it rendered all propeller-driven fighters obsolete.
The Allies had absolutely nothing comparable to the performance of the Me-262.
True, there were only two winners in WW2... and one loser, Britian.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke ???
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The 262 wasn't the only aircraft of its kind when it came out. The Meteor was very much exactly at the same time operational. And the American P80 wasn't much behind. I agree that the 262 was initially the best performing of the 3 designs at least until the end of WW2. But still the new concept wasn't solely a German one or down to the 262. And when comparing with the Wright flyer for a revolutionary new concept I would rather name the He178 and maybe the Gloster E.28/39 which were both made to prove the feasibility of turbojet propelled aircraft.
What I meant with evolutionary though is that aircraft like the 262 or the Meteor were a logical consequence in developing faster fighter aircraft and therefore not a waste of resources for a "wonder weapon" as many claim. In fact it reduced required resources in comparison to latest prop fighter designs in combination with greatly improved performance.
The other driver for tricycle undercarriage (“borrowed” from the Me309V1 (literally - it was physically removed from the prototype)) was that the Me262 was setting fire to the grass runways and that flagged the runways for “special attention” by the RAF and USAAF fighters and bombers.
What, the Meteor was vastly superior. It was not, it wasn’t even allowed to go into combat. Eric Brown said that ‘without a shadow of doubt, the 262 was the most formidable aircraft of WW2.’ The Meteor was at least a generation behind.
@@drstrangelove4998The British didn’t want the Meteors technology captured by the Germans. The Meteor’s engine technology was five years ahead of the Germans - that’s why the Americans and Russians licensed manufacture of British engines for the next DECADE and the Russians dumped the German designs as soon as they could.
@@allangibson8494 Unfortunately that is nothing more than wishful thinking... the Gloster Meatbox was an epic failure as a fighter and never saw regular RAF service in the Fighter role, the Meatbox was always restricted to ground attack, reconnaissance and training roles... its a plane that only killed british pilots.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The Meteor wasn’t ALLOWED to operate as a fighter over German controlled territory (just like the Me262 wasn’t allowed to operate over allied controlled territories).
In spite of that the Gloster Meteor did get the first jet versus jet kills.
The Meteor’s biggest problem in WW2 was shared with its piston engined contemporaries - gun jams.
The Meteor is however still in (commercial) service, the Me262 isn’t.
BTW - the Gloster Meteor got six air to air kills against the MiG-15 in Korea - an aircraft designed five years after it entered service.
@@allangibson8494 Never happened, pure propaganda nonsense lad.
The Gloster Meatbox was never operational as a Fighter during WW2, it only saw combat in the ground attack role.
The Meatbox only killed British pilots.
According to official MoD records more than 890 crashed just in RAF service killing 450 British pilots... it was the worst jet aircraft to ever serve the RAF.
Only one MiG-15 shot down, the pilots survived and was court-martialed for flying drunk on Chinese New Year!
I see now that industrial might and logistics are what really wins wars. With no way to interrupt the supply by American, British and Russian war factories, Germany was just delaying the inevitable. Thank you for your thought-provoking video, good work. 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for watching Ronald.
@@CalibanRising the pleasure is all mine.
Then how do explain America's defeat in Vietnam? Or the British, Soviet and American defeats in Afghanistan???
WW2 ( Europe ) was fought on the ground....not the air
Air power played only a small part in the war.
The British and US Air Force's number one asset...
..... was making self serving propaganda films
A WW2 USAAF jet engine mechanic (P-80) informed me that at the beginning of 1945 the P-80 engine had to be overhauled, rebuilt or replaced after four hours of flight. By the end of the war in Europe, P-80 engine life was upped to 16 flight hours.
That would have been a lot of Me262 engines (two per Me262, against only one P-80 engine)
Thats correct, tests conducted by the Americans during Operation LUSTY confirmed that German jet engines averaged TBOs of 55 hours, excellent by WW2 standards and better than the Merlin or R-2800 engines.
Eric " Winkle"Brown who flew 262s after the war and researched captured German aircraft found the engines had a 24 hour reccomended life which realistically turned out to be half of that.
@@cyrilthompson1846 That is nothing more than fiction... never happened.
Please refrain from spreading ignorant misinformation.
True. The Me-262's engines, both of them, could be replaced in thirty minutes. To change a P-80's engine required disassembling the fuselage
@alancranford3398 They could change the engines if they could get them. But looking at the kills listed Me262 s were shot down a lot while landing. At the stage of the war the 262 was available there was a shortage of engines which limited the numbers flying and the high loss rate meant there was not enough flying to make any difference .
If the 262 had been available in large numbers it would have shut down daylight bombing and thus the Allies would have gone back to night bombing. At the same time the British (with a great deal of American insistence) would have poured resources into the Gloster Meteor which was being developed at the same time and then restarted daylight bombing and attrition of the Luftwaffe. Note that by the end or 1945 the Meteor was vastly superior in all areas. That could have been brought forward much faster.
They lost the war once Britain declared war and for the same reason as always. Napoleon found this out, the Kaiser found this out and now it was Hitler's turn. The RN shut down the oceans and that was that.
@@benchapple1583 Pretty sure Germany, France, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, Romania, Hungary, etc could have overcome Britain. The twin foul ups of bringing the USSR and the USA into the war against Germany's European continent, six months apart, meant Germany was certainly doomed. Churchill could get Stalin or Roosevelt to join the British Commonwealth against Germany - that was Hitler's doing.
I mean the Germans were working hard to get better fighters than the Me262 and would have had them ready by end of 1945. The only thing what stopped the Germans from wiping out Britain were a few tons of Nickel to make their jet designs heat-resistent.
@@ThorstenKreutzenberger How have you arrived at that conclusion? A few tonnes could easily be moved by submarine from just about anywhere.
@@benchapple1583 I read a book its called "the secret horsepower race" by calum douglas. Its all in there.
@@ThorstenKreutzenberger Please don't cite an authority. The question was "How do you know?" I.e. How would 3 tonnes of nickel, clearly available to the 3rd Reich although with some difficulty, have transformed Nazi Germany's ability to fight so that they would have defeated all allied air forces and the Royal Navy which is what it would have taken to "Wipe out Britain". Also how would those 3 or 4 tonnes of Nickel enable a successful trans Channel invasion, equivalent to D-day, in order to "Wipe out Britain"? Please explain. It may take more than one sentence.
Lets imagine that it became operational in 1943 , the allies wouldn't sit back and say thats it the war is lost. No ! Jet designs already on the drawing board would be pushed through with greater urgency. The De Havilland Vampire was being developed from 1941 , the old adage , necessity is the mother of invention may well of applied.
Fact is the allies never saw the Me 262 as a serious threat against winning the war.
I mentioned the Vampire as an example , because I sat in the cockpit of one when I was a boy . Single engine amazingly small , would have been easier and cheaper to produce over the Meteor .
The Vampire, like the Gloster Meatbox was a major disappointment with a lot technical problems that were never adequately resolved, as a result although both were intended to serve were classified as fighters, neither british jet was capable of filling the fighter role.
The RAF would not have an effective jet fighter until the Hawker Hunter in the 1950s.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Yes . i'm fully aware of that . My point being that they could have been introduced earlier if the need arose . When the FW 190 was kicking the arse of Spitfires , the Mk XI came along what was overall a superior aircraft , Johnie Johnson considered it to be the best fighter of the war .
@@jameswebb4593 Who is Johnie Johnson??? Eric Brown said the Messerschmitt Me-262 was the finest aircraft produced in the war and years ahead of anything the Allies built... Britian was never a leader in aircraft technology.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Capt Eric Brown was a test pilot . His only action was in 1940 flying a Martlet off an Escort Carrier . Johnny Johnson was the highest allied ace in the European theatre , with 34 victories , all German fighters and none during the Battle of Britain. If he said that the Spitfire Mk IX was the best fighter of the war , then I will take his opinion before Brown's , who's assessment is purely technical.
@@jameswebb4593 Indeed, you just proved my argument... Eric Brown was a test pilot and the test pilot who flew 487 types of aircraft, more than any pilot in history.
Kurt Welter also said the Me-262 was the greatest aircraft of WW2, he was a combat Ace with 65 wartime victories and the highest scoring jet Ace in history shooting down 20 RAF aircraft including 18 Mosquitos in the Messerschmitt Me-262.
Ol' johnny boy was talking out his ARse, nothing more than speculating.
Cheers mate!
Little of this mattered. the ME262 might have been able to stop day bombing, it would have done little to stop night bombing.
Given the number of Tempests and Mustangs the allies could field and proximity fuzes for AA arty, the Germans were not going to stop Overlord.
Outstanding presentation. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Even its best feature 'the swept wings' was an accident as it was designed with straight wings , but the engines where too heavy so they had to sweep the wings to keep the centre of gravity back
The wing sweep isn't even really a 'feature' of the 262, it's way too slow for a swept wing like that to provide an aerodynamic advantage.
All the wings really do for the 262 us make it look sexy and futuristic
You don't know anything about the Messerschmitt Me-262.
The swept wings are the secret to the Me-262s fantastic cruise and top speed over 125 mph faster than any Allied aircraft.
Compression Drag starts to occur well before reaching Mach 1 which is why modern airliners all have swept wings.
The Me-262 was not just the first jet aircraft with swept wings, it also had all swept control surfaces and the first fly-by-wire(analog) Horizontal Stabilator system to counteract the effects of compressibility and "Mach Tuck"
The Me-262 was designed and tested to speeds up to Mach 1.4 at the Worlds only supersonic aircraft wind tunnel laboratory in Braunschweig.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Can it shoot down F-22A Raptors too? Been itching to get one of these - the way you make it sound makes it seem like it could go up against anything!
@@yashkasheriff9325 Certainly in WW2 it could shoot down anything ... but Germany was working on much better aircraft to replace it before the war ended including Radar stealth aircraft and its engineers went off to America and the Soviet Union after the war to build the F-86 Sabre and the MiG-15
Wow it had DC2 wings...
The only thing I think you did not mention was the lack of alloys needed to make their engines last. So they had about 10 hours life assuming the pilot didn't burn them out by over acceleration
Thanks Anthony. I didn't focus on this in detail simply because I didn't have the data.
@@CalibanRising yes it is probably hard to get the exact figures. I believe it was Eric Brown the famous test pilot that came up with the 10 hour figure. After the war he was given an intelligence role because he spoke good German and was also a knowledgeable pilot. Hopefully you have put the Me262 myth to bed. There is a lot of nonsense spread about the subject of German wonderweapons
@@AnthonyBrown12324 yea the pressure for that much more air time & having to send engines back to Germany for service every couple weeks would massively hindered their success was my thought
Sometimes the engines would be destroyed
@@warrengee-f9l Many of the engines would disintegrate ; especially if the pilot tried to accelerate too fast . Quality control was also an issue with so much slave labour used ; these poor people were starving or were beaten and abused . If such a thing as Kharma exists ; German behaviour in WW2 had a lot of bad Kharma .
I think the 262's superiority (speed advantage) over any and all Allied fighters is overstated. Those are top-speed comparisons, of course, which is not a very realistic basis for judgments on overall performance differences in actual combat situations. The 262 regardless could be caught by diving Allied fighters, and was very shoot-down-able all things considered.
Actually, its a considerable understatement, often forgotten is very limited power output of piston engines in maximum continuous cruise speed, ; for example, the P-51 Mustang could depending on altitude and wind speed only cruise at a maximum speed between 275 mph to 362 mph... the Me-262 could cruise continuously at blistering speeds over 465 mph!!!
Another point often overlooked is the Me-262 could safely and controllable dive at speeds well over 600 mph! thanks to its all-swept control surfaces and its fly-by-wire (analog) Horizontal Stabilator system.
Allied fighters were completely outclassed by the Me-262 in a dogfight, the German jets had complete control over engagements able to control when to attack and simply breakoff and deny any Allied fighter a chance to engage.
any questions?
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Interesting, thanks.
engagements with the Me 262 were not really 'dogfights' but rather 'zoom past' affairs with each cannon shell fired by the Me 262 tens of metres apart from the last one, all taking place at g forces which rendered the pilot virtually helpless if he tried any major changes in direction.
@@pcka12 Lol! They were very much like dogfights... just more like the ones in the Korean War rather than WW2.
The Me-262 has the most powerful and effective standard gun package of any WW2 fighter... a single 30mm shell filled with 85 grams of RDX high explosive was powerful enough to completely disintegrate an Allied fighter... it completely outclassed anything the Allies had.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The ME 262, famously, could not 'safely and controllable dive at speeds well over 600 mph', as you put it. It experienced critical mach effects at 0.86 M, exactly the same as the Gloster Meteor. Unlike the latter, however, it didn't have speed brakes and had to hope that control could be recovered in denser air at lower altitude. Many pilots attested to the poor construction (slave labour=little quality control) and reports of ailerons detaching were common. Some aircraft broke up. Assuming your airframe survived high G loads, you also had to hope that unreliable Jumo engines didn't flame out. The Jumo's were so unreliable that pilots were taught to gradually reduce them to 90% of take-off thrust and not to to touch them until landing. As any dive at near-maximum thrust would see airspeed rapidly increase, it was all too easy to exceed the critical mach number.
I do think the Hitler stoped me winning the war thing has been massively overplayed by the many commanders who re-wrote the war to present themselves in a far better light than they maybe deserved. Far easier to blame mad man Hitket as Tik Histiry terms it. So we would have had thousands of 262 without Hitler is I think a real contrivance of those who failed. Also - if needed the Meteor could have easily been moved to front line service and while of course both airframes had prose and cons the reality was the airspace was not open for a complete domination by the 262.
The Gloster Meatbox was a disappointment and unable to serve in the fighter role, it only saw regular RAF service in the Ground Attack role.
The Ministry of Aircraft Supply was run by political appointments from the ruling class, without any consideration for qualifications or skills... ineffective aircraft like the Meteor was the result of this systemic incompetence.
If the ME262 got produced in numbers it MIGHT have bought the Germans a few months before the Gloster Meteor was produced in even MORE numbers.
I keep seeing the Meteor mentioned, but didn't it take a year or two until after the war for it to get up to around 600mph with upgrades? I thought the 1944 version was limited to ~420ish mph, which was about what the prop fighters of the time were also doing.
@@goldleader6074 I’d argue wartime production demands would have upped it faster. If the ME262 became a real threat over Germany, the allies would be working overtime to fix it, and unlike Germany had the industry to back it up.
The Gloster 'Meatbox" as it was called by RAF pilots was not a threat to the Me-262... the British jet was not able to serve in the fighter role and was restricted to ground attack.
the Meatbox only killed British pilots
@@goldleader6074 the Meteor never saw combat with the RAF , other than taking down V1s . It was streets behind the 262 . The Australians used them in Korea without much success. The RAF opted to stick with their Hawker Sea Furies .
USAAF and RAF were sending up almost 1,200 bombers with hundreds of fighters by March of 1945. If Germany had done anything to stay in the war longer they would’ve seen hundreds of B-29s flying higher and faster carrying 4x weapons load. Germany was cooked and it’s not like the Allie’s didn’t have their own jets that would’ve been operating in number of the war persisted into 1946
Hell, the Vampire would have been available in numbers before the Meteor if the Air Ministry hadn't ordered the prototype engine to be diverted to the States after the USAF destroyed their test engines for the shooting star.
@@daveharrison61 yeah there was just no path in reality that Germany could win the war as soon as they started Barbarossa
@@daveharrison61 de Havilland was a deeply troubled company that was years behind in aircraft technology, the Vampire had major development problems that delayed production until well after the war ended... it was plagued by a weak engine and a wooden fuselage that couldn't handle a bigger engine. All of de Havilland's jets were disappointing performers with staggering loss rates and a terrifying tendency to crash from in-flight structural failures.
@@troiscinq7650 Britain's surrender to the Americans in September 1940 interfered with A.H's plans to invade the Soviet Union, forcing him to invade soon than planned.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke and yet variants of the vampire remained in front-line service until the late 50s. As for the safety of the vampire... No argument. But ALL 1st gen jets were a death trap. The meteor was the safest of them and that had a loss-rate in accidents of 50% of the production run over the course of its service life. Under-powered engine? Re-read that bit about the air ministry sending their engines to the states. And them having to basically start their own jet engine project with whatever resources they could scrape together. (The air ministry really did screw up pre and during-war aviation development).
The ME-262 had a short endurance in the air. Mustangs swarming the airbases were very successful against the jets during take off and landings
The P-51 Mustang was completely outclassed by the Me-262... Actually the practice of loitering around German jet bases was officially banned by the Air Command because of the unsustainable heavy losses.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I would direct your attention to the "Great Jet Massacre" of 4/10/45, when the Mustangs were so "outclassed" that they shot down 29 of 55 JG 7 Me-262s attacking a bomber force raiding Luftwaffe bases. Also, as pointed out in Cajus Bekker's "Luftwaffe War Diaries," the bases for Major Nowotny's Me-262 unit were under such heavy daily attack by USAAF fighters that they could only take off and land under the protection of a whole Gruppe of FW-190s (which still wasn't enough to help Nowotny on his last flight).
@@TempusFugit1159 Allied aircraft losses loitering around German jet bases was so high that Allied Air Command officially banned the practice...
In a 1-on-1 fight in the air, the P-51 was no match for the superior Me-262. by 1945 propeller driven fighters were obsolete technology.
If, if, it had been available at 1000 strength before the introduction of the Mustang, day bombing of Germany might have got unsustainable. But to be a war winning weapon, really, it would have to run on water. The solution to a fuel crisis is not a fuel hungry plane. And ideally, the engines would be made of wood to avoid using exotic alloys.
The Me-262 helped solve the fuel crisis... it ran on low octane jet fuel made from COAL... it was also cheaper and faster to build than V-12 aircraft OH! and it completely outclassed anything the Allies had!!!
FYI: Jet engines are made from Stainless steel, Germany was one of the largest manufacturers of stainless steel in the world.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke
Yes, Fritz, we get it German Wunderwaffe, yada yada. That's why you lost, twice.
@@markwilliams2620 Germany is now the leading g economic power in Europe and the largest manufacturer of jet aircraft in Europe... there was was only one loser in WW2... and that was Britain.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke a d the nazi apologist shows his colours
@@thomasbaker6563 Please name a single UK company that still builds British jets aircraft in Britain today?
The RAFs most advanced jet fighters currently is the American Lockheed F-35 and the German Eurofighter Typhoon.
apology accepted...
The cannon were lethal*, but as WW2 US bombers pointed out on his channel, their rate of fire and relatively low muzzle velocity** were problematic, especially when combined with the problems with the engines and the lack of dive brakes that resulted in very high closing speeds.
I think Eric Brown estimated that the pilot had two seconds to aim and fire his cannons.
* His latest video covers how effective the FW190 weapons were as the war progressed, and he has already covered the effectiveness of German weapons against US bombers.
** He also contrasts the ballistics of the rounds of the MK108 with the .50 calibre carried on US bombers.
Allied testing concluded that the Me-262 had the most powerful and effective standard gun package of any fighter during WW2,
a single 30mm shell contained a whopping 86 grams of RDX high explosive and could blow the wing or tail off a large 4-engine bomber or completely disintegrate a fighter like a Spitfire or Mustang!
It was a potent bomber destroyer that escorting fighters could not cope with. Such an aircraft might have been useful to Britain in 1940 because any invader needed total air supremacy in order for their Invasion fleet to cross the English Channel. But in 1943, Germany was losing a land war, and a high speed short range bomber destroyer really wasn't going to change that.
So internal politics was involved in holding the ME262 back. Assuming the politics had been different could the British have brougth the Gloster meteor forward sooner?
The meteor was available, in numbers, before the 262 actually entered production. The only reason it wasn't used was that the allies didnt want germans to capture the engines.
Not true, the shortage of Nickel was all that delayed the Me-262... Politics was not a factor.
@@phoenix211245 The Gloster Meatbox was an epic failure... useless in the fighter role it only saw service in ground attack... so dangerous to fly it only killed british pilots
Not really, the Me262 delayed itself (cit)
Military History Aviation went over the topic a few times and cited several primary sources showing that they were already developing it as a bomber fighter since spring 1943, with many figures in the Luftwaffe wanting to have it with such specifications (but it was easy for everyone to use the "Hitler stupid" card after the war to save the face)
The main issue remained its unreliability, especially its engine, and, regarless of the choice, its development could have hardly went any faster
@@amogus948 The engines were very reliable, the problem was they had to be redesigned due to the lack of Nickel, this took a long time as it would require developing two massive new breakthroughs in jet engines technology, bleed-air cooling of the turbine blades and the use of TBCs... technology completely unavailable to the Allies and critical to all modern high performance jet engines.
I have seen one(a replica i believe) seen flying at Berlin air show some years ago
No flyable replicas exist, these are genuine Me-262 "C" models built under license from DASA (Messerschmitt)
The US was turning out one new aircraft every 10 minutes - end of story.
When there are so many mustangs in the air the Germans wonder why the clouds have 50 cals…
"The US was turning out one new aircraft every 10 minutes - end of story."
And how much does that matter if the planes are unable to shoot back?
That's like UK saying in 1939, hey, if we can build 150 Bristol Bulldogs per day, those Me-109s are sooo dead meat!
Even if you change that to Gloster Gladiators, they're still going to be easy kills for -109s.
@@DIREWOLFx75 … what, in the name of Jiminy Cricket, are you talking about?
@@richardhart9204 Something ridiculously obvious.
@@DIREWOLFx75 … yep, something is definitely, ridiculously obvious.
Last time I looked, the Gloster Meteor was in service before the 262. Also, even though the Czechs tried to make sell the 262 after the war, the Meteor is what countries bought.
The 262 was an unimaginative design that did not understand what a jet fighter would be. The Meteor was a much better design
While that is true, the one problem the Meteor and all jet fighters at the time had was range. If this is pre-D-Day it might have caused some issues.
Nothing decisive IMO, but we woudln't see Meteors (or P-80s) over Berlin. Not that anyone here is necessarily suggesting that. Just that as much potential as the Meteor had, she was still limited by the tech of the time.
The Me-262 entered operational squadron service with the Luftwaffe on April 19th 1944... and shot down its first RAF plane on July 26th, one day before the Gloster _"Meatbox"_ entered service... the Meatbox was not a fighter and only killed british pilots during WW2.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerkecan always spot a wehrboo.
2 world wars mate.
Fkn losers.
The 262 was crippled by German hubris, technological weaknesses and destined to be rapidly outclassed
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The only issue being that the RAF lost no Mosquito aircraft on the night the 262 is supposed to have shot one down... The record of the ME262 was greatly embellished in postwar accounts. It wasn't until September 1944 that the 262 was cleared for operational service with JG7, whereas 616 sqn had had the Meteor operational since the 27th of July.
In my opinion, weapons selection is 90% political, 9% logistics and only 1% performance.
I am keenly aware of development cycles and how long it takes to go into production. The P-51 going from concept to flight test in six months was a crash program and the Mustang was progressively developed throughout the war. The B-29 was flawed with some 1700 field modifications needed after the bomber rolled out of the factory starting in 1944. The atomic bomb was a crash program with the Manhattan Project beginning in late 1942 and being used in combat in August 1945. America had massive resources, the world's best minds, and neither logistics lines nor factories were under air and ground attack.
Germany was in political chaos and going to war only made the chaos worse. Changing priorities, very limited resources, the need for test flights and then training instructors before training the front-line fighter pilots and ground crew while enduring Allied fighter sweeps and attacks on airfields proved to be program killers. The fact that engines were not available for the Me262 and the 30mm cannot still had teething problems. Me262 fighter pilots were still just learning their mounts in May 1945.
I have to agree with your analysis that the Me262 contributed nothing to stopping bomber raids. Besides, EVERY Me262 was lost when Germany surrendered.
There is still no denying that Germany led the world in aerospace technology... the Allies could produce nothing comparable to the Me-262.
8,000 Jumo 004 engines were produced during the war with output steadily increasing, Allied estimates at 100,000 units per year by 1946.
All of the experts and Allied testing showed that the Me-262 was equipped with the most powerful and effective standard gun package of any fighter during WW2.
The epic failure of the American M1 20mm cannon program was the most shameful and humiliating American blunder of WW2... worse than the MK-19 torpedo fiasco... this left American planes without an effective auto cannon for the duration of the war and well into the postwar era... a blunder that would ultimately cost thousands of American lives.
The Germans were basically even less ready for war than the Allies were.
The jets were too little too late.
Then why did the Allies adopt German weapons technology during and after the war???
@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The best tank of the war was the British Centurion.
It's the original MBT and far superior to anything produced by the Germans.
The basic vehicle proved sound and allowed upgrades in its armament from the original 17pounder to the 105mm Royal Ordnance L7.
Their tanks were a developmental dead-end*, and this can be seen by the fact that tanks derived from the venerable Centurion are still in service.
* The German development of the Schmalturm and very long cannon ( L100 7.5cm) went nowhere.
@@chrisgibson5267 The Centurion wasn't in the war... its a postwar tank that benefitted heavily from captured German technology.
Germany makes the best tank guns... still does.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I read some where that the Leopard had Royal Ordinance guns?
@@kevinrayner5812 The original Leopard 1 did have a British licensed rifled L7 105mm, later versions, Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams have a Rheinmetall L/44 120mm which became the world standard for tank guns.
The Japanese Type 90 and the South Koreans also use the German L/44 120mm
Brilliant vid, as always!
Thanks mate!
The Me 262 never got beyond prototype status. There only were really many prototypes of it made. Wth the engine being extremely unreliable and have a TBO of no more than 20 hours, engines would have been to be replaced roughly once a week.
Moreover the 262, being a typcal Messerschmitt-design, did put numbers on the speedo, it just couldn't take the speed around corners. In air combat, this is an important capabillity in order not to be a siting duck after the first hard turn. This is a weakness the 262 shared with the 109 and probably was down to the automatic slats which caused excessive drag in order to keep an airframe that was not designed for turning controllable in tight turns.
More 262s in service probably mainly would have meant more chances to shoot them down.
Wow kid! You don't know much about the Messerschmitt Me-262 and what you think you know is completely false..
While Germany produced 1400 Me 262 only about 300 were operational at any one time. This was due to bombing of factories and airfields not to mention that their fuel facilities were also being bombed. The Me 262 was also not a kind aircraft for beginner pilots and the losses in manpower and constant drain on manpower as well as ever dwindling training meant that there were fewer and fewer pilots to fly the aircraft. Many of these issues became a major concern in 42 and 43 and grew worse as the war progressed. There really was no chance for this idea.
The production of Me-262 increased as the war dragged on, production was decentralized and moved to underground bombproof factories.
Production of J2 Stoff also increased during the war.
The Me-262 was very easy for new pilots, older pilots needed addition conversion training.
26 Luftwaffe pilots scored Ace higher.
The Me-262 was a stunning achievement and the most significant aircraft since Wright Flyer... it rendered all propeller driven fighters completely obsolete
@@sandervanderkammen9230 no bomb proof factor was proof of allied heavy bombs, tall boy and grand slam come to mind. But if your going to whine oh my tunnels then fat man will do. Unlike the moribund Jerry's the Americans actually had working nukes in 45.
@@thomasbaker6563 Tallboy and grand slam were overall ineffective against reinforced concrete bunkers and completely useless against deep shelters.
America used up its entire reserves of uranium building the two bombs dropped on Japan.
Of course, none of these changes the fact that the Allies had absolutely nothing comparable to the Me-262.
perhaps you should spend more time studying history and less time trolling youtube?
Any questions lad?
The Fedden Mission was absolutely shocked to discover that Me-262 production increased during the war and newly constructed secret underground bombproof factories had been completed without Allied intelligence detecting them.
You covered it all great presentation.
Thanks for watching
They were great interceptors, but were used for mostly attack instead.
Certainly to begin with when KG 51 were on the case. Those last two or three months of 1945 saw fighter operations almost daily.
The Gloster Meatbox was restricted to ground attack duty... Me-262 pilots shot down over 550 Allied aircraft with 26 pilots scoring Ace or better, Kurt Welter remains the highest scoring jet ace in history.
Completely agree with your analysis. Well presented.
Thanks for watching John.
Galland said it could have stopped the daylight bomber offensive....he didn't say it could have won the war. Can you imagine Schweinfurt scale losses on a continual basis? They would have switched to night like the Brits.
British night bombing was less effective... much less effective.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerkeit really wasn't
By the end of the war, with pathfinders, radar bomb sights, and target designation, the difference between night bombing and day bombing accuracy was moot.
It's not even necessarily true the Allies would have had to concede the daytime. They had their own jet aircraft either already in service or very near to being in service. With greater priority exerted by actually effective 262 attacks, those could have been deployed to meet them.
Along with other tactics like 'rat scramble' raids or just straight up bombing of airfields
@@kirotheavenger60 The Allied reconnaissance data shown that night raids were far less effective... the RAF could not sustain the heavy losses of daylight raids and bomber crews mutinied and deserted until the switch to night raids was made out of desperation.
The Allies never had an effective jet fighter during WW2, the P-80 suffered teething problems after being rushed into service too soon.
The Meatbox was a deathtrap that only killed British pilots during WW2.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke what source do you quote for your assertion that night raids were ineffective?
Is it that report dated c.1942, before training and technology had adapted to night bombing? And when the USAAF was still believing the miracle 'precision bombing' capabilities of the Norden?
@@kirotheavenger60 The Allies own reconnaissance data showed that many British night raids were completely ineffective with 0% damage to the intended German targets... The Gloster Meatbox was completely ineffective as a fighter aircraft.
RAF Chief Air Marshall Sir William Fredrick Bowhill called the Meteor a quote; _"completely dismal and lackluster aircraft"_
The Meatbox only killed British pilots... 890 crashed killing 450 British pilots in RAF service.
more than 1 out of every 3 Meteors built crashed or were destroyed in accidents!
Nazi philosophy depended on a fantasy view of reality. The magic of wunderwaffen was part of that. Hard to know how much the opportunity cost of all that industrial divertion was.
*The German philosophy during WW2 is the basis of modern military doctrine. All modern Western militaries adopted the German concept of **_Force Multiplication_** through advanced technology, and the US military fully adopted and embraced German doctrine.*
Logistics, resources, pilots to fly the 262s, and time worked against the fighter to make any real difference. Another hypothetical, would it be the only jet fighter in the European theater of operations? I find it difficult to believe that the Allies would not have gotten a viable jet fighter designed, built, and deployed after seeing 262s in action if they were in operation earlier in the war.
I think you are right that the Allies would have exchanged tit for tat had the ground war played out differently. However as soon as they devised the best method for dealing with the Me 262 threat, airfield attacks, I don't think they would have rushed untested aircraft into the ETO. The Meteor demonstrates this really.
I'd imagine the meteor would be given green light to operate if the 262 gave a lot of problems. It was available, in numbers.
@@phoenix211245 The Gloster Meatbox was never able to effectively fill the fighter role and never saw regular RAF service in that role, the RAF would not have an effective jet fighter until the Hawker Hunter in the 1950s
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Funny how the Meteor managed to serve quite well in Korea with the RAAF then, isn't it. And even kept shoot down parity with the mig 15.
The proof here is quite simple, the last Meteors were retired in the 1980's, and it was used as a fighter in dozens of conflicts, by a multitude of countries. NOBODY besides the Czechs wanted the flying heap of junk that was the 262, even the soviets declined to copy it. And the Czechs scrapped the 9 airframes they had in 1951.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Your 262 has engines made by slave workers.
I want to trust Galland. I always default to the pilots at the theatre. Some random Toober decades later simply has no reference. But in this case, I doubt the finale outcome would change. Even if the numbers shot down were exaggerated, the morale/propaganda impact would devastate the morale of Allied fighter and bomber pilots. The notion of a shark-like predator in the air annihilating entire formations (even if it happens rarely) will trigger a panic and a crisis. That crisis that might cripple the Allied air campaign over Europe and affect the decision to invade Europe in 1944. I suspect it wouldn't stop the bombing or the invasion but might make the Allied Coalition double or triple down on more fighters and escorts in a personnel pool already depleted by mid to late 1944. It might've prolonged the war into August of 1945. Enough time for Hitler and Germany, perhaps, to a cease fire or Armistice rather than total capitulation.
By the way, I find Galland highly problematic witness. His post war statements seem designed to deflect blame and ingratiate himself with the people forming NATO. Not a trustworthy narrator.
@@eugenehong8825
August 1945 you say. August 45, what happened in August of 45. Say Allies don't respond with faster development and manufacturing of the Meteor and P-80, well let's go back to August 45. I think you would be seeing a mini sun showing up in the middle of the night in the vicinity of Berlin or Bonn.
@@jamess7576 That's why I gave a hard deadline of August
@@jamess7576 America only had enough uranium to build two atomic bombs...
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke one... the others were plutonium cores.
Germany lost the war the minute they invaded Poland and couldn’t possibly have won - as long as the allies didn’t surrender. Had the French not surrendered and retreated to defensible positions in the south of France, they may have survived until the allied industrial effort came to their rescue. What Churchill, Stalin and later Roosevelt knew was that all they had to do was hang on until the combination of production and attrition of Germany’s ability to wage war was eliminated. No single weapon, except an atomic bomb - something the Germans couldn’t developed first - could change that calculus. The 262 if developed in numbers, with limitless fuel and trained pilots to fly them, wouldn’t have made any difference.
"something the Germans couldn’t developed first"
Mostly for the simple reason that Germany's own scientists were sabotaging their research yeah. Even without that, it would have been extremely difficult to achieve it first. Germany could possibly have achieved the possibility of nuclear weapons before the historical end of the war, but that wouldn't do much anyway. And it's very much a very unlikely scenario.
And yes, i agree with you. And very much yes on the French surrender. Especially sad because the overwhelming majority of French troops wanted to fight on.
Later on when they found out how the surrender happened, there were MANY very very angry Frenchmen.
If nothing else, it would have at least double German casualties in France and delayed their attack against USSR.
Which means the USSR defensive line would have been finished. Which means that hundreds of thousands of troops would meet the German attackers from well fortified trenches with all their heavy weapons, instead of from barracks with nothing but rifles, because their heavy equipment was in storage until the line was completed.
The Soviet reorganisation would also have had time to settle and get the worst bugs out of it.
Overall, operation Barbarossa would have been a DRASTICALLY more difficult project for Germany. It is not impossible that they might even have been stopped dead by the new defensive line. Probably not, but their advance would absolutely not get anywhere close to that of historical 1941.
Most likely somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2.
This would also have kept a BIG chunk of Soviet industry from being devastated, captured or destroyed.
Essentially, it would very likely allow USSR to fight the war as they wanted instead of being forced to.
Quite likely, this would still result in Soviets entering Berlin in 1945.
And if Germany's losses in taking France were severe enough while letting ALL remaining French troops become "free French" from the start, Italy in N Africa would not survive 1942 and probably not even 1941.
So, the war might end by 1944...
It's possible that Germany could have "won" WW2 if they asked for a General armistice after the fall of France and agreed to give up French land conquests, while the French could concede Alsace Lorraine. Maybe just ask for a return to the 1914 borders, with Danzig thrown in. The Allies would have likely be more amenable to a peace deal if Hitler agreed to step down, like a victorious boxer retiring undefeated, but Hitler would never do that, so it's all incredibly unlikely. So yeah I agree, once he invaded Poland it was either absolute victory or absolute destruction of Germany. 🤷🏻
The atomic bomb was “Jewish Science” - it was political ideology that prevented German victory.
The Nazi Party just couldn’t manage any complex project effectively.
"The Soviet invasion of Poland was a military conflict by the Soviet Union without a formal declaration of war. On 17 September 1939, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, 16 days after Nazi Germany invaded Poland from the west...."
@@---nb7ll It's a lot more complicated than that.
Due to how WWI ended in the east, and then the so called Polish borderwars, there was a degree of uncertainty about which, or any of the treaties were valid.
That by itself would not have been a real problem.
The problem came from Poland between WWI and WWII using that as part of their expansionist nationalism to talk up their claims against USSR, Baltic states, Romania, Hungary, Germany and Czechoslovakia.
Poland was essentially saying, NOT quite officially, that they were still at war and that the treaties were null and void.
And they were very aggressive about this against USSR.
USSR was VERY unhappy.
So no, technically, Poland themselves kept mumbling about the war still ongoing, so USSR basically went "you asked for it".
This bluster and threatening was also one of the reasons the German military was VERY afraid that Poland WERE going to attack them.
Interesting question Phil. I've done a little research and number crunching, and come up with:
Type No. prod. Yr 1st flt Yr Intro length of svc # per year
FW 190 20000 1939 1941 4 5000
Me 109 33984 1935 1936 9 3776
Me 110 6170 1936 1937 8 771
Me 163 370 1944 1944 0.33 1121
Me 262 1400 1941 1944 0.83 1687
Interesting to note that in its short production run Germany produced a higher rate of 262s than 110s and 163s. The 110 first flew in 1936, so allowing the same 3 year gap between first flight and production, the 262 would have entered service in 1939 and the Luftwaffe would have 262s for the entire war and produced 9,835 of them. As we know the 190 already out performed the Spitfire V, and at the time would probably have out performed its upgrade, the mark IX and with 262s already in service the 190 could have been dropped and its capacity given over to even more 262s. Thus by war's end they could have had 15,183 262s and certainly caused major issues for the US daylight bombing, for one thing curtailing USAAF bombing of the synthetic oil plants allowing more fuel and oil for /every/ part of the German war machine, not just the aircraft, badly impacting ground TOOs.
If the 109s had been scrapped in their entirety then the Spanish Civil War and WWII could have turned out markedly different. The Battle of Britain in 1940 for example would have pitted 262s against Mk1 Spitfires and Hurricanes.
The gap between first flight and introduction is curious. Prior to the SWW Germany could have taken their time, yet they didn't. The 109 was introduced only a year after the first flight, maybe for the Spanish Civil War. In 1944 seeing how badly they were doing they could have taken the same year. Had they taken the same two years of the 190 the 262 could have entered service in 1943 3,384 more been over Normandy. Had they taken the single year of the 109 they could have had 5,061 over Normandy, if the invasion had even happened as the 262 by then could have seen service in the MTO and EETO although in the first case Rommel's supply chain was reliant on the unreliable Italian merchant fleet.
Thus I don't think it is true to say it could NEVER have changed WWII. I think it's impact /could/ have been significant, if other types were dropped to allow capacity to produce it.
The problem with the bomber losses is those figures combine /all/ losses, mechanical failure, flak, and night fighter. What percentage was due to fighters /alone/? That's the figure the 262s should be measured against.
Thanks Julian. As you know, I also like to crunch the numbers like this.
I don't deny that having an Me 262 like aircraft in 1940 wouldn't have changed the course of the war. It's akin to the Fokker E.III in 1915/16. Even a very slight advancement in weaponry can cause havoc for the enemy. However, here we're really getting into a completely different timeline of events.
My main point was that within the realms of what was actually possible, a Me 262 sometime in 1943ish, wouldn't have done much other than prolong things. Germany would have been ground down by the Red Army, it would have just taken longer.
I think getting such a new type of technology into the air within 12 months would have taken a lot more resources and treasure than even the Germans were willing to gamble. It's as I said in the video, no one seemed to care that much about the Me 262.
As for the bomber losses, I wish I earned enough from this channel to take the time to get those types of figures. I have so many data studies on hold because it's just not worth my time at the moment, unfortunately. My guess though is that the Me 262 was indeed accounting for more than its fair share compared to other fighters. The Me 262 pilots claimed 68% bombers at any rate (forgot to include that in the video).
Moot point, the F-4 Phantom couldn't change the outcome of the Vietnam war either...
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The whole point of the video is a moot point, that's the entire idea of it.
@@julianmhall Indeed, its nothing more than a veiled attempt to discount the technical superiority of German jet aircraft during WW2... which is the much more important (and controversial) topic for discussion.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I don't think there is any particular bias shown in that regard, it is after all just using the statistics. However it's a complex topic as 'What If' scenarios always are and you have to assume that statistics would be the same and they may not, for example had the 262 been in service longer pilots would have been more used to it so the kill ratio could have been higher.
I find it quite amusing how fashions change. For decades there was the narrative of nearly invincible German "Wunderwaffen" the brave Allied forces had to fight. That was of course an exaggeration to put it mildly. Or bullshit, because even "Wunderwaffen" need things like fuel, trained operators etc.. That was the point at which the Third Reich had to fail right from the beginning.
But in the last few years, a new narrative has come into fashion, especially on social media.
It basically is the exact opposite of the old "Wunderwaffen" narrative. All German engineering was simply crap, groundbreaking developments like the Sturmgewehr, the jet aircraft, the V2 etc. are called pointless, and actually the Allies had better technology, they only didn't field it because their weapons were "good enough" to deal with those Nazis...
Really? I mean, why did the USA grab any German engineer or scientist, bad Nazi or not, and ship them to the US. Same with the Doviets, although they weren't as successful, because sending the scientists and engineers to Gulags did most likely motivate them much less than offering them a decent life and an US citizenship.
The French were at best junior partners and didn't get their share of German technology. And the Brits? Well, they shipped some aircraft, tanks and other weapons to their island, but decided they could do better than the damn Nazis... 😅
Maybe it is no coincidence that many of the "all-Nazi-technology-was-useless-crap-fraction" are from the UK...
If German technology really was that bad, why did it take so long to beat those incompetent fools, despite their shortage of fuel, raw materials and in the end, trained personnel and workforce?
Indeed the ME-262s were one example of “too little, too late”. And let’s not forget it wasn’t without its problems as a bomber interceptor.
Lack of transport planes and trucks necessary for mechanised warfare doomed them. Americans had the redball express. {the Berlin Airlift was even more impressive}
And the Russians had every Studebaker truck made during the war.
“Nothing flying over Europe that could touch it” only if both engines were working properly and that wasn’t actually a given was it? With one engine out it’s speed was seriously compromised as was it’s handling and with the woeful quality of the first generation German jet engines there was a good chance that the 262 was going to be compromised.
Germany produced the best jet engines during WW2... the Jumo 109-004B was superior to any Allied engine.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke interesting question? Why did the soviets ditch the German engines that they acquired at the end of the war when they gained access to the Rolls Royce Nene…
@@scrumpydrinker Excellent question, the Americans did their homework long before the war ended and set in motion a massive plan to recruit German jet scientist and engineers and bring them back to America.
Operations Paperclip and LUSTY transplanted the German aerospace Industry en masse.
little was left behind for the Soviet's as Germans surrendered to the Americans.
That popular story has been completely twisted over the years, Britain and Rolls-Royce were bankrupt after the war and desperate for cash, the Nene was heavy and bulky for its thrust output as a result was unpopular and didn't fit many airframes. Neither side gained anything from the other, Rolls Royce got stiffed on the licensing fees and the Soviets abandoned the RD-45 in favor of the much better VK-1 designed by Vladimer Klimov.
@@scrumpydrinker because the dumb Brits gave it to the Soviets for free... the Nene was already outdated St that time, as were all radial engines. But the Soviets didn't have to reverse engineer it, because Rolls Royce gave them the blueprints...
@@stscc01 Its a fun story for the brits to tell, but it's just story... the Nene was not a secret and Rolls-Royce didn't invent centrifugal turbojets, it is a completely insignificant footnote in history that changed nothing.
More false claims have been made about the Me262 than any other aircraft. Galland was desperate to find excuses for his failure as General of Fighters. Truth is the Germans didn't have the resources to meet the losses .in 1944 or the fuel or trained pilots . Just logistics was a major problem.Transport ect was a major problem. As you said manpower committed to the German cause . Ii think the bomb issue has always been over played. Good presentation
The two six two has been properly put in its place. It was rushed and it was crap.
According to Eric Brown it was the finest aircraft produced during the war and completely outclassed anything the Allies had.
26 Luftwaffe pilots scored Ace or higher shooting down over 550 allied aircraft. Kurt Welter remains the highest scoring jet Ace IN HISTORY.
The Gloster Meatbox only killed British pilots
Excluding range problems, the allies could have jets too. They just used what worked. The P80 and Meteor were equivalent in combat potential
The Me-262 had very good range for an fighter/interceptor. The Allies were years behind the Germans in jet technology and fielded the only successful jet aircraft during WW2.
The Meatbox was never a fighter and the P-80 was in effective until the C model appeared after the war
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I respectfully disagree in several aspects. The English jets were deliberately designed to last longer. The German jet engine had abysmal life between needing major maintenance. The P80 was the better design in my opinion. This is because of a fuselage mounted engine and that the life of the T33 that came from it was many decades. Just a more modern design, regardless of wing sweep. Finally, my point was that the allies worked on what was needed to win, which was huge numbers of good fighters and heavy bombers. The Germans were far behind in heavy bomber technology. If the need was dire for the development of jets in response to Germany, they would have easily responded. The allies won with vast numbers of reliable Shermans, not a few hundred unreliable Tiger tank engineering "marvels". Their concerns were more logical.
@@kentl7228 The facts are irrefutable, British jets are notoriously short lived and performed poorly.
Germany produced the best jet engines of WW2... they were years ahead of anything the Allies had.
The data doesn't lie, the Me-262 was superior to the P-80 and the Gloster Meatbox.
The engine placement was certainly not an advantage considering that it did not have swept wings, and the B-58 is an excellent example that proves wing mounted engines do not affect high speed performance.
No aircraft can change the course of the war... so it's a moot point.
Germany invented Jet Bombers and guided Ballistic missiles.
The Sherman was not more reliable, it was just a mediocre design built in vast numbers that was obsolete on arrival.
again, German tanks were more reliable than many Allied tanks and they were simply more advanced, outclassing Allied tanks.
The Americans made 5 attempts to copy the Tiger... that should tell you something about what they really thought!
Then explain Operation Paperclip and Operation LUSTY???
Don't be afraid to speak the truth, no will call you a Nazi unless they are a childish troll.
the war ended 79 years ago, get over it!
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Sorry, did you just write several paragraphs about WW2 and then say that "it ended 79 years ago and get over it!" Is there some irony that you miss? The Panther and Tiger were famous for poor reliability. The Panzer IV was better for resource/cost benefits. Germany lost in great part to the "mediocre" tank that you mention. Reliability, speed and price of manufacture, versatility and logistics convenience are important to a good design, not just thick armour and a big gun.
Germany failed to make fighters with the range of the P47 or P51, that would have been beneficial to Germany but they couldn't. That is good design to be able to take the fight to the enemy.
German jet engines were the ones that were factually poor at lasting very long. The British jet engines did last longer and they were in demand by Russia and the USA before.long.. Operation paperclip means nothing to your arguments. If Germany were in the same shoes, they would want all the research that they could get from the allies. Also, the wing sweep on the 262 was a similar angle to that on the DC3. The T33 variant of the P80 was retired in Bolivia in 2017. The 262 was used after WW2 but not for long at all. The underwing engines of the Meteor or 262 were an evolutionary dead end. The Germans made some brilliant equipment, but a lot was junk as well, like all nations. The exaggeration about German gear gets ridiculous.
@@kentl7228 Wow! you are just full of silly Alliboo myths, I think you got all of them in there except the one about A.H. tried to make the Me-262 a bomber
Even if the Me262 had entered service many years earlier and completely stopped RAF and USAAF air raids, the main effect of this would have been the saving of thousands of RAF and USAAF losses while the Allies stopped wasting resources on the largely ineffective strategic bombing campaign.
It's absurd to suggest the ME 262 couldn't have changed the war. But I think you know that. Whatever.
Well I've stated my argument here. The only change might have been a longer conflict. The outcome wasn't going to be influenced by this or any other German aircraft.
@@CalibanRising the subject was the me 262. Debunking counter-factual fantasies is one thing, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
There are a lot of ifs in war. One is that if someone in Britain had have recognised Whittle's genius and put the jet engine on crash priority with Rolls Royce much earlier there could have been a jet at the Battle of Britain. The famous trade with Rover of a tank engine factory for the Whittle jet factory could have been much earlier. Ifs don't win wars. A really good book on the Merlin and early British jets is "Not much of an Engineer" by Sir Stanley Hooker who took on Whittle's early jets and turned out the magnificent Rolls Royce jets.
Thanks for the book recommendation!
Whittle sabotaged his career before it even started when he was exposed for plagiarizing the work of AA Griffiths (RAE head of Engine Development) published in 1926 and who pointed out several egregious errors in his 1930 patent.
Whittle in fact never constructed his 1930 patent design and never built any engine with an axial compressor. The RAE realized that Whittle was not actually familiar or knowledgeable regarding compressors or how they worked and was simply speculating wildly.
Whittle would not begin actual work on jet engines until moving to Rugby in 1936, years after jet development began in Germany.
Whittle was incredibly difficult to work with and demanded help from experts yet claimed it was his work, Both Hooker and Adrian Lombard refused to work with Whittle who by them had become addled with drug and alcohol problems.
Production of jet engines was handed over to Hooker at Rolls Royce after the infamous incident at Power Jets ltd when Whittle was arrested for assaulting a young R-R engineer and brandishing a gun at a meeting after a week-long drug and drink binge.
Hooker and Lombard are the real genius behind the British jet program.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke That’s not even close to true. You need to read Hooker’s book where he acknowledges Whittle’s contribution and genius. Have no idea where you got these ideas from. Whittle’s equations are still used today.
Actually it exposed the actual reason jets were so late. A jealous rival without Whittle’s genius spreading lies to further his own ideas which weren’t as practical and never produced a working engine.
There was a very good reason for using a centrifugal compressor and that it was well understood from the many thousands of superchargers using them. That was actually Hooker’s main contribution. He was the expert on gas turbines and made the Merlin’s supercharger more efficient leading to a large power increase. When Rolls Royce took over he worked closely with Whittle on the entire engine. A good axial compressor was not designed until well after the war with the Avon.
The big difference is that the Meteor had engines more comparable to Merlin’s in their reliability than the 10 hour life and desperate unreliability of the axial flow German engines
@@stephengloor8451 The truth about Frank Whittle is far worse lad... he is a very unlikely hero and a fictional character created by the British propaganda machine.
Whittle was, in addition to being a poor engineer was a fraud, a boaster, tireless self-promoter and a plagiarist.
Whittle's equations were stolen from A.A. Griffiths and he even copied Griffiths mistakes proving that Whittle didn't understand the material or was too incompetent to spot the mistakes.
TRUE, Whittle never produced a reliable jet engine, not a single design produced by Whittle or Power Jets ltd. ever passed the RAE's 100 hour PFTR for acceptance into RAF service.
Nor did Whittle ever build an engine with an axial compressor, he abandoned his 1930 patent after Griffiths pointed out the egregious errors in its design.
True, Britain simply lagged a decade behind in aerodynamics and compressor technology, the Centrifugal compressor was an evolutionary dead-end and was already obsolete, but it was all Britain had.
The UK would not have any viable axial jet engines until captured German technology was disseminated and copied.
It was also Hookers only contribution, Adrian Lombard was responsible for most of the design work on the Welland, Nene and Derwent engines.
The Ministry was forced to hand over production to Rolls-Royce, Whittle demanded more money but made no progress, Power Jets failed to deliver a reliable engine that was suitable for mass production, Whittle was incompetent and failed to achieve a viable engine.
You are very confused and misinformed. The Jumo 109-004B engines that saw mass production easily passed the RLMs own 100 hour PFTR reliability tests required from adoption into Luftwaffe service... tests conducted by the Americans after the war as part of Operation LUSTY confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, Excellent by WW2 standards and better than the high-output versions of the Merlin or any Allied jet engine... another case of Allied sour grapes.
Whittle would be at the center of the greatest scandal in British aviation history, a shameful and humiliating chapter in British history that destroyed his career, his company and Britian's chances of being first to break the sound barrier.
Whittle was arrested, discharged from the RAF and removed from his own company for his part in the Miles M.52 embezzlement and fraud scandal.
The new Labour government exiled him to a drug rehab in America and he was blackballed from the UK aviation industry... he would never work as an aerospace engineer for the remainer of his life.
The engines we use today were first successfully developed in Germany.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke So if all of that is true the why would a person of Sir Stanley Hooker’s reputation and knowledge vouch for him? In his book, referenced above, he has nothing but praise for Whittle. In fact he writes “I never improved on Whittle’s compressor efficiency, I only made it worse once”
If this is all true then why did Rolls Royce buy Whittle’s technology instead of Griffiths?
Sure some jet engines in WWIi Germany ran for 100 hours but in operational service they didn’t last much past 25 hours according to Winkle Brown who flew the 262 and interviewed many many of the pilots and ground crew after the war.
Our current engines with axial flow compressors are the product of much research from the USA, England and Germany. Early on plenty of people tried however axial flow compressors struggled with low compression ratios, compressor stalls and blade breakage until the metallurgy and aerodynamics were fully understood. By contrast, due to piston engine superchargers, a reliable centrifugal compressor was relatively easy to design and proved to be a wise choice for time. Also centrifugal compressors aren’t dead, they are still used on some smaller engines where their cost effectiveness is more important than efficiency.
Perhaps you should read Hooker’s book. I take it you have all the published papers from Griffiths that shows what Whittle plagiarised and other supporting data.
Nevermind
It could have because it could run on anything not just synthetic fuels that the piston fighters used. Meaning Germany could have more sorties. It could even run on Diesel.
Except the engine had a lifespan of 25 flight hours. At most. After that the engines had to be replaced and the old ones scrapped. Not rebuilt, scrapped. The Rolls Royce engine in the Meteor by contrast had a lifespan of hundreds of flight hours.
Lets say that every month you have an average of 25 days available for flying, the rest being bad weather. That would mean if every aircraft were to fly an average of one hour per day during those clear days, they would need a full engine change every. Single. Month.
If they are flying an average of 2 hours per day, which is not inconceivable, the fighters of Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain were flying well above that, then you have a requirement for 2 full engine changes per month.
For a thousand Me 262's, you would need four thousand engines a month just to keep the current aircraft in service. This is BEFORE you build new aircraft.
At no point were four thousand jet engines per month being built in Germany. The shockingly low life span of those engines was at least as big an issue as lack of fuel and pilots, and one generally ignored by the Wheraboos....
Fact is you can have all the fuel in the world, but if you cannot build enough engines to keep the requisite number of aircraft flying then the availability of that fuel means sweet feck all, because those jets aint flying ANYWHERE if they don't have engines....
@@alganhar1Add to that, there was an extreme shortages of trained pilots, never mind skilled pilots. The 262 was vulnerable at take off and landing. As many would have shot down then as lost on operations. Finally the allies were months away from their own jet aircraft, that would redressed any imbalance.
@@alganhar1And the Germans never had enough fuel available to put more than 400 Me262’s into the air in any given month - out of the over 1000 built.
@@alganhar1 They later increased it to 80-100.
@@alganhar1 TBOs were confirmed to average 55 hours... better than Allied piston engines!
If they had the supply on nickel and crome it could of been a war winner
The B model engines were made from Chrome based alloy called Krupp P-198 "Chromadur", Germany did have supplies of Chromium. Nickel was imported from Canada which ended because of the war.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I thought Finland had nickel?
@@kevinrayner5812 Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but the only country that produced commercial quantities of Nickel during WW2 was Canada, large deposits were found in other parts of the globe more recently.
I am honestly leaning to what Galland had to say being that he flew the Me 262 in 1943 pushed for its production and flew in combat in 1945. Galland is also very reliable giving historians rare insight into Battle of Britain. Your argument that the Me 262 was ineffective is quite weak considering only limited numbers saw combat and not all as “fighters”.
You now have the data, make of it what you will. The salient point here is the Me 262 lacked the infrastructure and support it needed.
He was a bloody nazi and wrote self serving bullshit just like ever g3rman general who survived the war.
Take 80% of what he wrote with a large pinch of salt.
@@sugarnads And use what YOU write for toilet paper
If only the question of fuel didn't need to come up. Whole campaign was about fuel. Oh dear.
The genius of the Me-262 was it ran on Coal... in plentiful supply in Germany
Me-262 was never fully developed as a practical fighter. I think the Me-262 bomber theory is a fallacy. Converting the Me-262 to a fighter bomber was not a very difficult task.
The Me-262 was the most effective jet fighter of WW2.
True, the P-51 was also a bomber and carried a similar bomb load, it also had a dedicated bomber variant as well the A-36 Mustang!!
w/d cali great vid
Thank you sir!
Lack of the great pilots that the Luftwaffe possessed earlier in the war. Lack of the proper raw materials that were needed like manganese, chromium and nickel available not available late in the war necessary to build the engines wasa big problem. A year or two earlier puts the lie to the NEVER nonsense but only getting this aircraft to the front in Summer/Fall 1944 was just too late to mater.
26 Luftwaffe pilots scored Ace or higher, shooting down over 550 Allied aircraft.
Germany had supplies of Chromium, but Nickel was imported from Canada and stockpiles were depleted by 1942.
The successful switch from Nickel based stainless steel to a Chromium based stainless steel was made possible with advanced thermal management technology that was unavailable to the Allies.
TBCs and bleed air-cooled turbine blades gave superior PFTR and TBO performance compared to Allied jets... thrust to drag ratio performance remained superior to Allied engines.
Come on now. Germany was finished by late 1944. Manganese and Tungsten, neither were available available in sufficient quantities and neither was neither was chromiun or nickel which they were getting from Finland until they switched sides. It wasn't only elemsnts/materials that were required to produce aircraft but chromium and Tungsten were need to harden armored plate for tanks. Late 1944 was way too late to matter,
@karlheinzvonkroemann2217 Chromium based stainless steel is what was used on production aircraft, Chromium was rationed worldwide during the war.
Engine production steadily increased during the war.
Because 262s can't stop t-34s...
T-34s broke down faster than they could be blown up... The only tank of WW2 that was issued to troops with a spare transmission.
You may be wrong. 1400 Me262's made; of those 600 made it to airfeilds - Hitler had demanded they all be used as bombers; but Galland begged and was allowed just 2 wings to be used as fighters. Hitlers demand btw delayed production; had he not interfeared there likely would have been more made and used earlier. Even so 600 is a lot, even 300 a potential major threat, as the allies had about 2000 heavy bombers. The Me 262 also had 4 30mm guns firing explosive rounds; a hit by a single round could destroy a B17. In Korea when the US encountered the Mig15 they halted bombing due to high loss rates. Halting bombing may have changed the war.
I agree it had impressive armament. There even at least one pilot testing a 6 gun Me 262 by the end of the war. As it was, I think having a force of 300 Me 262s in the field was a big ask seeing that they could only keep 180 with operational squadrons by April 1945.
If the 262 had priority by 1941, it is very feasible by early/mid 1943 no daylight bombing especially for eastern cities was possible anymore. With denial of bombing you win back the initiative.
@@ALBANOSTI By 1941 Germany was already running out of nickel stockpiles... it took an incredible amount of engineering work to redesigned the engines to be reliable with the less desirable Chromium based alloy.
Two major, cutting-edge jet engine technologies, bleed air cooled turbine blades and TBCs had to be invented, developed and scaled up before the 109-004 B could enter mass production.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke You are right. But from the beginning of jet development this technology had no priority. A relative of my mother told me some stories of how they had to improvise although they technically where working under the state owned Junkerswerke. He said that, under optimal conditions they could have sped up the process by more than one year. And by 44 they already had an engine on the teststand that was to powerful for most of the gauges because the second test stand for the advanced engines was not built as they requested it.
@@ALBANOSTI No one expected the war to last beyond 1940... The second Tizard Mission and Britain's surprise conditional surrender to the Americans was a completely unexpected turn of events that completely shifted the dynamics of the entire war and would extend it to mid-45.
Indeed, by 1944 Germany was developing jet aircraft that were intended to fly as fast as Mach 1 and beyond... and rocket motors were still seriously considered as a viable powerplant in the future, competing for development resources, work on turbojets like the Jumo 109-012 and the BMW 109-018 and turbofans like the Daimler-Benz 109-007 were delayed/canceled due to war shortages.
Obviously, we are playing the "what if" game, so here is my "what if." I would say quite confidently that if the Germans had fleets of ME262s at the beginning of the war, they would have won. The ME262 crushed every other WW2 plane that was made, and not by small margins. If Germany had them originally, the plane would have undoubtedly been a bit more refined because they wouldn't have been building them under duress. Also, most of the luftwaffe would have still been alive. It's not a stretch to think they would have developed drop tanks, extending their flight time. We might as well throw this in; they probably would have shared some of this tech with Italy and Japan, which is an even scarier thought. It's not unreasonable to think there is a strong chance we'd all be speaking German now if the Germans had developed the ME262 5 years earlier. Listen to interviews from pilots that were actually there. They had no delusions about the superiority of the ME262. One is quoted as saying, "If they saw you, you were dead."
@@LordHolley
That would definitely have been a different world.
If you really believe that, I would recommend against watching Lord HardThrasher's "Why the Me-262 was Rubbish."
@@TempusFugit1159
Really? I’d recommend it. It never was a problem of the airframe, it was always a problem of the engine.
@@TempusFugit1159
I would recommend that it is a must watch. It was never the airframe it was always the engine. The Germans lost WWII for reasons.
@@bradywomack9751 What I meant is that from what I see in the comment section, the content tends to trigger people who are invested in the "Me-262 could have changed the air-war" narrative.
‘An army marches on its stomach’. The 262 force was similarly dependent on its logistic tail. As you say that includes pilots, ground crew, fuel, spares and attrition replacements. All those factors were against it. And even in 1943 there were critical shortages of basic elements such as the specialised alloys needed for jet engines and to make them reliable. An MTBF of 25 hours means a massive burden for the engineers, jets grounded, jets crashing and production that can’t match demand. And if the 262 had appeared in greater numbers might the RAF have upped Meteor production and allowed them across the Channel? There are many what-ifs.
*The adoption of the Messerschmitt Me-262 represents a major reduction in logistics demands, the Jet fighter was cheaper to build and only requires a fraction of the man-hours to build thanks to modern modular construction and decentralized production.*
*Production steadily increased.*
*J-2 stoff reduced demands for limited Petroleum supplies.*
*COMPLETELY FALSE.*
*Often quoted are figures for the Jumo 109-004 A made with P-198 Chomadur alloy.*
*These experimental engines never saw production or operational service.*
*The Jumo 109-004b was PFTR rated at 100 hours+ and TBOs averaged 55 hours.*
*Better than Allied piston engines.*
*Just wishful thinking... the Gloster Meatbox was never an effective fighter and never saw regular RAF service in the fighter role, it's service was limited to ground attack and reconnaissance roles.*
*The RAF would not have an effective jet fighter until the Hawker Hunter entered service in the 1950s.*
@@sandervanderkammen9230 MTBF actually worsened with the B-model engines, precisely because of the need to use inferior metals. Failure was not unknown after 10 hours if pilots weren’t careful with the throttle.
@@timgosling6189 *The B models exceeded the RLMs 100 hour PFTR requirements for adoption into Luftwaffe service.*
*The A models with Chromadur never saw service, quoting figures for these engines is false, highly biased and deliberately misleading.*
*The Jumo 109-004b was the best engine available during the war.*
The Germans could have built 50 Me262s, or 50,000. It's irrrelevant becausethey didn't have the fuel to deploy them, and the pilots available by 1944-45 tended to be literal kids.
Having said that, cool plane though.
That's not true! Jet fuel is made of the longer C-count factions of the crude oil and can easily be cracked from even higher counting factions.
High octane fuel to prevent knock in piston engines was not possible to obtain for Germany. And so German piston Engines were all designed for 90 Octane. British and American Engines used 105 and above!! Fuel shortages were not so much a problem for the jets than for the normal fighters.
@@ALBANOSTI You're assuming the refineries and distribution systems still existed. They didn't. If a refinery is put out of action, there's no C-count factions and no 90 octane. If you can't get whatever you refined to the airfields, the aircraft stay as static targets.
@@ALBANOSTIIf you have NO oil, it frankly does not matter what octane count you need.
The Me-262 was designed to run on synthetic jet fuel made from coal that was in abundance...
@@phoenix211245 COAL... not OIL, the Me-262 ran on _J-stoff_ made from coal.
Interesting...but would a plane as profoundly flawed as the Me 262 really have been able to accomplish that much in the grand scheme of things had the Germans produced tens of thousands of the jets and had enough pilots capable to fly them?
Captain Eric Brown, RN seems to indicate the Me 262 would have changed the course of the war in his famous television interview, but his description of how the jet had to be operated in combat makes it clear the 262's effectiveness outside of long, high speed attack runs at high altitude was questionable. Naturally taking off at full thrust, the Luftwaffe pilot would gingerly retard the thrust levers to climb thrust for fear of flaming out the engines with any aggressive movement of the thrust levers.
This forced Me 262 pilots to climb far above the 25,000 ft altitude the Allied bombers normally operated at (in all air-breathing aircraft engines maximum continuous thrust will match the requirements to only maintain straight and level unaccelerated flight...in the Me 262 this was well in excess of 35,000 ft), and launch high speed dashing attacks from above with only two seconds to line up on a target for fear of retarding the thrust levers, the limited effective range of the low-velocity Mk 108 30mm cannons, and the 262's lack of dive brakes. This led to the German jet pilots to devise a strategy to slice through the bomber formations and pull up to bleed off the excess airspeed and attack from below the bomber stream. After running out of ammunition (or running low on fuel) would the pilot finally risk retarding the thrust levers, i.e. in order to land. In effect, the Me 262 was a very fast heavy fighter, with a mission profile more similar to the Me 110 than the Me 109.
In sufficient numbers Me 262 pilots might have been able to put enough of a dent in the 8th and 15th Air Forces (and Bomber Command if the German jets incorporated radar) to call off the Combined Bomber Offensive...but only if Spaatz and Harris did not do the obvious and drop the raiding altitude down to Fighter Command's, 9th and 12th Air Force's attack altitudes. Flak was far more effective at Ploesti Raid altitudes, but Me 262 dash attacks would be far more difficult to accomplish. For one, avoiding impacting the ground would become a major issue and retarding the thrust levers would become necessary due issues with airspeed limits, risking flameouts a low altitude. Moreover the 262's swept wings were optimized for high altitude, high speed flight where piston-powered fighters are far less maneuverable due to stall speed increasing with altitude...at Ploesti altitudes Allied fighters would get their maneuverability back and be far more formidable foes.
There is a common conceit that jet fighters immediately outclassed all piston-engined combat aircraft after the combat debut of the Me 262, conveniently overlooking that piston-powered attack aircraft remained in front-line service for at least another 30 years--the A-1 Skyraider first flew in 1945, yet was unparalleled at delivering ordnance against North Korean and North Vietnamese ground forces, with the USAF, USMC and USN using the venerable 25-year old attack aircraft right up to the American exit in 1973. When Saigon fell two years later over 300 A-1s were still flying for the RVNAF along with over a score of AC-47s, the American gunship/CAS conversion of the WWII transport aircraft.
The Me 262 was a niche weapon, with questionable utility outside of the high altitude heavy fighter role. It certainly was a better replacement for the Me 110 than the 210 or 410, but in no way could supplant the Me 109 or Fw 190 in versatility (and perhaps would have been a poor replacement if pushed into the air superiority role). If deployed in large numbers, the Me 262 likely would have led the Gloster to ramp up Meteor production for the RAF and the Americans to speed up Lockheed's production of the P-80 and rush deployment to the USAAF while supplying the American jet to Fighter Command through Lend-Lease.
As such, the likely Allied response to massed Me 262s would be MiG Alley with disastrous Luftwaffe effects...
Are you afraid someone will call you a Nazi if you acknowledge that the Me-262 was in fact the finest aircraft produced during the war??? Its OK to speak the truth... don't live in fear, the war ended 79 years ago.
Are you afraid someone will call you a Nazi if you speak the truth about the Me-262?
The Me-262 is without any doubt the most revolutionary aircraft design since the Wright flyer and rendered propeller driven fighter completely obsolete ... to admit these irrefutable facts does not make you a National Socialist, a fascist or any other kind of "-ist"
The war ended 79 years ago, grow a pair and use them lad!
32:20 By April 44, they would still need at least the armament of guided AA missiles instead of the stupid 30mm stub guns. But hey, if Galland said that the 262 was fine, then its perfectly okay for any wehraboo revisionism...
Famous British test pilot Eric Brown said it was the finest aircraft produced in WW2 and was years ahead of anything the Allies had... The Allies in fact had absolutely nothing comparable to the Me-262.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke Well, with the exception of Gloster Meteor, P-80 Shooting star, and about a dozen other prototypes...
@@pavelslama5543 Those were not comparable to the Me-262 in performance... they were completely outclassed by the German jet.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke No, the 262 was completely outclassed. It was just barely faster, while also having a barely usable weaponry and having the handling of a strategic bomber...
@@pavelslama5543 The Me-262 was at least 125 mph faster than any Allied aircraft.
26 Luftwaffe pilots scored Ace or better shooting down over 550 Allied aircraft.
Me-262 pilot Kurt Welter remains the highest scoring jet Ace in history.
The Me-262 could turn and maneuver at speeds higher than Allied aircraft could reach in straight and level flight.
British and American jets only killed Allied pilots during the war.
You didn't mention that the engines had a very short life.
That false urban myth has been debunked, American testing conducted during Operation LUSTY confirmed TBO's averaged 55 hours, EXCELLENT by WW2 standards and better than many Allied piston engines.
Ah, contrived and fictional math. ;) If you change some parts of history, change all of it including the training, and make it work.
's'
Please. It had potential as a rough prototype which is all that was ever seen. To assume it would remain in this format is a massive oversight. It would have quickly evolved to be even faster with longer range, and would have seen more experienced pilots with a better training programs. Production starting 18 months earlier in volume numbers, and it would have tipped the scales for certain. For context, the BF-109 wartime production was 34,000 with a kill ratio of 21:1 (most kills coming from the eastern front). 10% of the BF-109 production by aircraft count, would mean 3,400 ME-262's and would have been enough.
The Me-262 was a fully developed, mass produced jet fighter aircraft... the only one of its kind and the only to see aerial combat during WW2.
Production was delayed by wartime shortages of material, in particular Nickel which had been supplied by Canada.
The engines required a major redesign program to switch to a Nickel free stainless alloy.
Early development was slow because both the Germans and the Allies expected the war to be over by 1941/42.
The Fedden Mission was shocked to discovered secret, newly constructed underground bombproof factories capable of producing 100,000 engines per year and over 30,000 aircraft... had the war continued the Me-262 would have had a very significant impact.
Had the 262 appeared in numbers in the Summer o 44, the British and Americans could have rushed to deployment of their jets to nullify the advantages o the 262.
The Allies had nothing comparable to the Me-262 in 1944...
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke The Meteor first flew in 1943 and commenced operations on 27 July 1944 with No. 616 Squadron RAF.
@@Purvis-dw4qf It was not a fighter and was completely outclassed by the Me-262...
The "Meatbox" as it was called by RAF pilots was slower than many piston engines planes during WW2 and was restricted to Ground attack roles.
The Meatbox never saw regular RAF service in the Fighter role, it only killed British pilots during its RAF service.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke If needed it could have fought 262, The Gloster had certain advantages that if pressed the British could have improved. Remember the Gloster stayed around for 10 years to face Migs.
@@Purvis-dw4qf Pure wishful thinking... The Gloster Meatbox was never a fighter, it had no advantages and was completely outclassed by its contemporaries.
The Australians tried to use the Meatbox against the MiG-15 once... they were slaughtered, the RAAF only used them as ground attack aircraft the rest of the war.
Britain was completely bankrupted by its defeat in WW2, the RAF would not have an effective jet fighter until the Hawker Hunter arrived in the 1950's!
As much as we love to glamorize the fighters. The facts are that AA batteries were far more effective per resources expended. EVEN if the 262 had prolonged the war it would not have prolonged the Manhattan project or a million salty soviets from invading. The real lesson of WW2 in the end was that small countries do not have the manpower or resources to fight continent spanning superpowers although nobody really fathomed what that meant at the time.
Allied studies made after the war concluded that German guided ballistic missiles were far more effective per resources expended, the Americans adopted the V-1 before the war ended and quickly adopted the V-2 series as soon as they became available.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I like how you can't even refute that the guy is right about Germany having limited resources so you make a point jerking off the German V-programmes. Why the hell are you bunch so predictable?
@@yashkasheriff9325 Because it's true! The American military actually adopted German V weapons because they are _Force Multipliers_ German missiles produced a much higher combat effectiveness for the limited quantity of resources expended.
If you do not understand this modern military concept in use today developed in Germany during WW2? I would be happy to explain it to you.
What was the german policy on gun sight aiming point cameras?
US fighter kill claims are considered largely to be correct as every fighter that flew in the war had a camera, and every claim could be checked on film. Some adjustment was done here and there, but in terms of US intelligence during the war, they broadly accepted fighter kill claims as stated and filmed.
*Nearly all German fighters were equipped with the excellent Ziess BSK-16, Ballistische Schussmess Kamera.*
*A 16mm black and white motion picture gun camera.*
*Additionally some German aircraft had the color film, Ziess Ikon cameras that fetch high prices on the collectors market.*
*However many claims both Allied and German are inaccurate and there are many American pilots who falsely claimed or over-claimed far more kills than can be verified.*
*War stories are notoriously inaccurate and tend to inflate over time... the Americans are no exception here as well.*
@@WilhelmKarsten okay but the presence of cameras negates the possibility of artificially inflated kill claims.
@@WilhelmKarsten the actual source documents from the war itself paint an accurate picture. It's generally only in memoirs that things get inflated, which is why real historians don't use them except for subjective flavor.
@@GeneralJackRipper *Actually no, while it confirms many, there are still many more claims for which no photographic record exist today.*
*WW2 records for both German and Allied aircraft shot down are notoriously incomplete and inaccurate, in the case of the British RAF for example, no official record of aircraft shot down or lost in combat exists...*
If the Germans had me 262s the British would have deployed / put a higher priority on there jet fighters
Britain didn't have an effective jet fighter during WW2.
@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke they had the Meteor, which had many advantages over the 262, especially as a fighter vs an interceptor (the heavy, low velocity 30mms of the 262 were unwieldy against fighters)
@@kirotheavenger60 The Gloster Meatbox was not a fighter and never saw regular RAF service in the Fighter role, it was restricted to Ground Attack, Reconnaissance and training roles. The meatbox was no match for the superior Me-262... it only killed British pilots during WW2.
Exhaustive Allied testing concluded that the Me-262 had the most powerful and effective standard gun package of any WW2 fighter.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke what are you smoking?
The Meteor was used extensively for intercepting V-1s on Britain's coasts.
At the very end of the war they took the shackles off and stationed them on the continent - where as you say they performed some strafing runs and recce flights. But that was just because there were no enemy aircraft flying, the Meteor can hardly be described as a ground attack aircraft as it didn't carry any ordnance. They were there stationed as fighters, and just fighters without targets!
The 262 certainly carried a heavier armament than any allied fighter, but heavier isn't better. The low velocity 30mm MK108s were great at punching bombers out of the sky, but the much higher velocith Hispanos were better at catching an enemy fighter, and still more than sufficient for downing one.
There's a reason low velocity 30mm never caught on for aircraft armament, whereas high velocity 20mm very much continued for many decades to come.
@@kirotheavenger60 The Gloster Meatbox only killed British pilots during WW2... 890 Meteors crashed killing 450 RAF pilots... the worst jet aircraft ever to serve Britain.
The biggest problem with "Wonder Weapons" is that they exist in some weird pocket reality where their introduction would utterly baffle the opposition for all perpetuity. They assume this wonder weapon can be built in infinite numbers, taking no time and can destroy massive numbers of enemy units without any loss. It doesn't need resources, it cannot be checkmated or heaven forbid the enemy will never be able to come up with a suitable answer since the mere existence of the wonder weapon robs them of all their cognitive abilities.
Here is a little thought experiment. Imagine a WWII where the German Army never deployed the 88mm, the MG34/42, the Tiger I or the FW190 or only ever deployed them in limited numbers. They were all highly advanced weapons in their day with an excellent performance. Wouldn't people in that reality, looking back as we do, consider them as "instant war winning weapons." ? The only difference is that they have a proven track record and very few weapons are so advanced that there is no response. You probably need to put Napoleon's army against the US air force to get the kind of instant war winning case so often
The problem as I see it is that history has nothing but "wonder weapons", the English Longbow, the musket, the Colt Revolver, the Maxim Machinegun, the French 75mm gun, The Fokker Dr I, Ironclads, HMS Warrior, Gloire, HMS Dreadnought.
Why didn't any of these obviously superior weapons guarantee an automatic victory ? The Long bow murdered so many French knights, why didn't it wipe the field when the houses of York and Lancaster decided to fight it out ?
The F-4 Phantom was best fighter of its day, but... America still lost the Vietnam war
The mosquito claim as the first victim is doubtful. The RAF have no record of a mossie lost on that day. Also, more importantly, german pilots were given a 'bonus' payment for shooting down mosquitos (it's a long story, but Goring hated the aircraft) so a pilot had an incentive to claim mossie victims.
RAF records for the WW2 period are notoriously incomplete, the Mosquito (in particular the unarmed reconnaissance planes) were by 1944 obsolete aircraft and very compromised having lost their only advantage (high cruising speed) easy picking for the much faster Me-262, Kurt Welter shot down 18 Mosquitos and around 85 were lost in total to German jets during the war.
You're right, the first mosquito claim was inaccurate. That aircraft actually made it back to its base in Italy (a topic I plan to cover in the future). When you say that pilots were given a 'bonus', do you mean in terms of points towards medals or actual money? I've not heard of the latter.
@nicholasripp386 The Mosquito that encountered a Me-262 on July 26th (not 25th) was heavily damaged and crashed attempting to make an emergency landing, the RAF data on pilot and aircraft losses is notoriously inaccurate and largely incomplete so it very understandable that there is no official record of this combat loss.
Mosquitos were particularly vulnerable to attack from the Me-262 and many were lost.
RAF Mosquitos proved to be very easy prey for the much faster and more agile Me-262... as many as 85 were shot down by jets before the war ended.
I'd dispute your K:D ratios. By all accounts, the Me262 was not a very forgiving aircraft, and getting the guns on target in the very brief windwos of engagement against a bomber was rather hard. A lot were also shot down during final approach. These were both issues of institutional knowledge, and I would both problems to go away with increased operational experience. Especially if introduced earlier in the war. With better docterine based on experience rather than theory, I'd expect the kill ratio to increase significantly. It certainly had the potential to live up to Gallad's expectation of halting daytime raids.
But would it have stopped the war? Hell no. Soviet victory was all but inevitable once they get their production back into high gear. The fighter would have done nothing to stop RAF night time raids. And if Germany had been making major strides in jet technology, Bletchley Park would have read all about it in real time, and Britain would have accelerated its own jet programme. The Meteor and Vampire weren't as fast as the Swallow, but they probably would have been enough to make attack runs on the bombers much harder.
Everyone that actually flew the Me-262 praised its performance and excellent handling... research confirms that the Me-262 had the most powerful and effective standard gun package of any WW2 aircraft, a single 30mm shell was all that was needed to knock out an enemy plane.
That is a problem that effects all aircraft, even modern jets are vulnerable during both take-off and on final, not at all unique the Me-262 so not a real disadvantage.
The Me-262 was the only effective jet fighter in operation service during WW2 so doctrines based on experience did not exist yet.
No single aircraft can change the outcome of the war, the introduction of the F-4 Phantom II had no impact on the war in Vietnam, America still lost.
The Me-262 was a very effective night fighter against RAF bombers.
Not true, The RLMs _Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt_ supersonic wind tunnel laboratories in Braunschweig where the Me-262 was developed remained a complete secret to the Allies until after the war had ended... a shocking failure of Allied intelligence.
Britain was a decade behind in jet aircraft technology... they would not catch up to German WW2 aircraft until the 1950s.
Neither the Gloster Meatbox nor the Vampire were effective fighter aircraft... the RAF would not have an effective swept-wing axial jet powered fighter until the Hawker Hunter in the 50s!
Just wishful thinking on your part.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke There is a reason no one takes wehraboos seriously. Thank you for reminding us why.
@@anticarrrot We just stick with the facts here lad... your decision to resort to the childish insults confirms that you are incapable of refuting these facts.
Cheers mate!
The Allies had absolutely nothing comparable to the Me-262... it is the most revolutionary aircraft in history since the Wright Flyer and rendered all piston engine fighters completely obsolete.
They had the Meteor - the first jet aircraft flying operationally.
And the P-80 Shooting Star, which just *barely* scraped the end of the war, but could have been in service earlier had there been more impetus.
@@kirotheavenger60 The Gloster Meatbox didn't enter service until July 27th and never saw operational service as a fighter, it was slower than many propeller-driven fighters at the time... it only killed British pilots during WW2.
The Lockheed P-80 spent most of the war grounded due to technical problems because it was rushed into service far too soon.
and the typical service life of the production Jumo engine was ... and you didn't mention this because ....
Yep, good point. Loosely alluded to when mentioning unreliable engines.
Tests conducted by the Americans as part of Operation LUSTY confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, EXCELLENT by WW2 standards and better than many Allied high output piston engines,
The myth that the Jumo -004 was unreliable comes from highly biased and unreliable sources that quote figures from the experimental Jumo 109-004 A version made with Krupp Chromadur P-198 alloy, these engines never saw production or operational service and quoting these figures is deliberately false and misleading. Any questions?
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke the Luftwaffles are flying.
The turbine and stator blades on the 004A were of solid material, but the production blades on the 004B were hollow. Two types of hollow blades were produced; a Krupp alloy Tindur, deep drawn blade of 30% nickel, and a nickel free Cromadur blade, made of folded sheet metal that was welded at the trailing edge. The Cromadur blade was somewhat more reliable and easier to produce and used less than five lbs. of chromium. The turbine blades were cooled by bleed-air from the 4th and last stage of the compressor. Cooling air was also bled off between the compressor and combustion chambers.
Since the heat resistance of these alloys was below what was required, the average life span of production engines was 25 hours. Overhauls were required after 10 hours.4 If the alloys had been available as required, this would have extended engine life. Engines were tested up to 150 hours in actual flight tests and up to 500 hours on the test stand.5
sources: 4. J.R. Smith, Antony L. Kay, E.J. Creek. German Aircraft of the Second World War. London: Putnam, 1985. 44.
5. John Forster Jr. ed. Design Analysis of the Me-262 Jet Fighter, Part II-The Power Plant. Aviation. November 1945. 115.
@@greenflagracing7067 You are very confused and misinformed... you are quoting TBOs for the -004A made with Chromadur. NOT the -004B.
All engines were required to pass the RLMs 100 hour PFTR to be adopted into Luftwaffe service.
A models made with Chromadur were experimental and never saw production or service.
Tests conducted by the Americans during Operation LUSTY confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, the best TBOs performance of any WW2 jet engines and better than most high output piston engines.
Any questions?
The Me-109 was very prone to accidents. The Me-262 was worst. Messerschmitt produced the F-104 Starfighter after WW2. Killing over 100 pilots on accidents. Landings were the major cause of accidents. Poor training in late WW2 did not help. F-104s had a shortage of wing area. It would be interesting to see how a properly developed 262 could do. With effective and reliable engines.
Quantity always overruns quality.
If that statement was true? jet aircraft would not exist.
The British had the Meteor, which was comparable to the Me 262. They were very effective at chasing V1's over England, but lacked range and endurance. The Allies also found that their long-ranged fighters were capable of combating the Me 262 - early jet engines had poor acceleration.
The Gloster Meatbox was not a fighter and never saw regular RAF service in the Fighter role, due to its poor overall performance it was restricted to Ground Attack, Reconnaissance and training roles.
The Meatbox was only very briefly tested in the V-1 interceptor role and withdrawn after disappointing results, it was replaced by faster more effective propeller-driven aircraft like the Tempest and Mosquito.
Allied fighters were completely outclassed by the Me-262, a design so revolutionary it rendered all prop fighters obsolete.
Moot point, the Me-262 had a continuous cruising speed of over 465 mph...so acceleration was not a factor the German jet had a minimum 100+mph speed advantage throughout its entire performance envelope.
The Meatbox only killed British pilots during WW2
The Meteor was completely ineffective as a fighter aircraft and never saw combat in the fighter role.
Ive recently heard that the engines of the 262 were only good for 8 hours of operation before they needed a complete overhaul. Given that statistic, we see the 262 as a prototype, one thrown into combat maybe a year or two before it was ready...also, Adolph Galland ....maybe didnt always tell the whole truth....J/S
The US Army exhaustively tested the Me-262 during Operation LUSTY and confirmed engine TBOs averaged 55 hours... better than Allied piston engines.... Myth busted!
There are published books giving RAF and US kills and losses day by day.up to the end of the war.I have copies of these books and they are fascinating Published in the late 50s They go into great detail. They are hardly comics as they list death and I remember getting them from the RAF museum I am sure they are still available .
Do you mind sharing the titles of these series? I have some good series for the RAF, but I'd be interested in getting my hands on other sources if they exist, especially for the USAAF. Thanks
A quick check with the UK Ministry of Defense Freedom of Information request you will find that the RAF has no official record of aircraft losses prior to 1947.
Both American and British records ARE INCOMPLETE and cannot be used to confirm or deny the actual number of Allied aircraft lost or shot down from German jets, among several well-known and creditable scholars the number _estimated_ ranges between 1500-1800 to general consensus of approx. 550 that are confirmed from personal accounts and the limited records that do exist.
A very important part of the story often overlooked is the staggering number of Allied aircraft lost while loitering around Me-262 bases late in the war, Allied pilots attempting the score a jet kill while taking-off or landing suffered appalling losses to anti-aircraft fire and FW-190s flying protective cap missions over the bases.
The number of Allied aircraft shot down so high that Allied Fighter Command official banned the practice to stem these unsustainable losses
The brits did not keep records of RAF losses during the war... so any sources you might have read would not be accurate.
Many of the RAF aircraft such as Mosquito reconnaissance aircraft that were shot down by German jets were easy prey, they flew solo missions and are not even mentioned as lost or missing... RAF records were that poor.
@@WilhelmKarsten Oh course the RAF kept a record of men and aircraft lost. I spend half my time looking at those primary sources. Do you mean to say they didn't keep a running tally or something?
@@CalibanRising You're joking right?
Never enough fuel or skilled pilots.
Allied planes were simply too slow, they couldn't catch the Me-262 and no hope of shooting one down in a dogfight.
The Me-262 is the most revolutionary and significant aircraft design since the Wright Flyer, the Allies had absolutely nothing comparable.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke History says otherwise. The 262 could be, and was often caught when a mustang or typhoon was in a dive, or when the 262 tried to turn in, it bleed speed so quickly, and any rapid adjustment of the engines would cause the engines to flame out. I suggest you read some actual books instead of getting your info from UA-cam. MESSERSCHMITT ME 262: Arrow to the Future (Schiffer Military/Aviation History) Paperback - Illustrated, 9 Sept. 2004
by WALTER J. BOYNE (Author) is a good starting point.
@@akula9713 Fake history... nothing more than biased revisionist fiction lad.
You are clearly not formally educated or have any professional experience in aviation or military history.
Your claims are ridiculous and completely nonsensical... the Me-262 had an absolutely blistering fast continuous cruising speed of over 465 mph... and could perform controlled dives to speeds well over 600 mph.
The Me-262 had a huge advantage over Allied fighters, its flight performance envelope was over 125 mph faster across its Speed-to-turn rate table specifications.
Propeller-driven aircraft with straight wings have a huge disadvantage against swept wing jets in a dogfight because they rapidly bleed-down energy in anything outside of straight and level flight, propellers lose thrust exponentially for every degree of deviation from straight and level trim.
This is exactly why the Me-262 rendered all prop fighters obsolete!
Again, total nonsense, cruising at 465+ mph an Me-262 pilot would simply nudge the throttles up to 100% rpm and quickly vanish into the horizon completely denying an Allied pilot any chance to engage in combat.
At altitude Me-262 pilots had complete and total control over when and where to engage enemy targets and could simply deny enemy aircraft any chance to attack with its massive speed performance advantage.
Any questions kid?
Plenty claimed by Allied pilots in combat. Under 5% were actually reported as being shot down over an airfield. While this means some may have been in the process of approaching or leaving an airfield, the rest were claimed in combat. No doubt it was under the classic "didn't see you" conditions.
The -262 underperformed hugely when it DID arrive, because by that time, allied airpower was already completely dominant.
"overclaim"
Yes, that was a common issue, but the Me-262 had VERY little of it for the simple reason that if the pilot saw shots on target, the massive power of the 30mm shells meant it was almost automatically either a kill or a SEVERELY damaged aircraft.
Also, German overclaim this late in the war was much lower overall, as it could generally be verified due to happening over German territory, and because the German airforce HAD noted the problem and had tried to fix it.
Pretending that their kills didn't happen is just pure BS.
"before Barbarossa"
Uh... I thought the statement was being able to stop the US daybombing? Not win the war.
Because a single aircraft could not win the war for Germany either way. Doesn't matter if they have it in 1939.
But if Germany got 500 Me-262s by middle or early 1943? Which by the way is completely possible if work on it had been stepped up instead of down.
Not EASY, but entirely plausible. Exactly the same way that development of the Tiger I was put on the backburner for well over a year. Not to forget the StuG's development and production delays.
Oh dear yes, USAs daybomber losses would have increased to the point where they would have had to stop.
Even as it was, there were questions posed about halting the US daybombing raids due to high casualties multiple times.
.
You massively exaggerate what was needed for it to be ready sooner.
"4.5%"
So? The Me-262 would be and was at its best used to shoot down heavy bombers.
The numbers are irrelevant if you don't look at WHAT they shot down.
If those 4.5% were almost nothing but heavy bombers? That's a MASSIVE contribution.
If it's nothing but fighters? Then it would be barely noticeable.
But they were focused on bombers. And in 1943, they could have operated drastically more effectively and with near zero fear of being ambushed while landing or taking off.
You're basically trying very hard to make the facts fit your narrative.
The U.S. effort could have been redirected to night bombing, when the 262 would have been largely impotent. No single weapon could win a war that was lost on day-1.
The engines had a five hour operating life in 1943 - because of a critical design error that caused the engines to vibrate to destruction (caused by resonance caused by having an even number of turbine blades and a cruciform turbine support structure - the solution was to go to a prime number of blades in each stage and this required the first five thousand engines built to be scrapped in early 1944).
As for “overclaims” the reported losses by the other side being much lower confirmed overclaims were occurring - and two or more aircraft attacking the same aircraft and both claiming a kill did happen on both sides. Losing sight of an attacked aircraft in cloud added to the fog of war - a 30 mm cannon shell may take an engine off but bombers have four of those.
Shooting down a bomber is very hard compared to a fighter because of the redundancy in the aircraft (multiple engines and at least three trained pilots in the crew (the bombardiers were always low time pilots and so were the navigators)). The Me262 was a lousy gun platform (because it was too fast and had no airbrakes) so only managed to put less than ten rounds in the direction of the target with each pass at the 300rpm firing rate.
Thanks for the comment.
I don't think it's unfair to underestimate all ww2 victory claims by a factor of half. I'm not sure how far you got, but when I spoke about the 31.3.45 combat the Me 262s claimed 17 Lancs but the RAF only declared 8 + 3 Halifaxes destroyed. So already we see that JG7 overclaimed by 35% on that day. It's perfectly understandable and normal. Another thing that I didn't bring up in the video was that 2.5% of these claims were HSS (Herausschusse) victories. Basically forcing a bomber out of the formation to be picked off by another fighter.
I agree with you, having a large force of Me 262s would have been quite a different story. However, a lot would have had to have changed with the development of a decent powerplant to make this a possibility. Pushing those Jumos into operational use in late 1943 probably would have led to more losses due to mechanical issues, and thus further reduced the Me 262 pilot pool.
You are quite right, I failed to add the stats about bomber vs fighter kills when discussing the other LW units for comparison. The Me 262 pilots claimed bombers in 67% of their claims. So it certainly was, as you said, used against the bomber force.
Despite all of this, I'm still sure that in April 1944 (when Galland said a year earlier) the Me 262 wouldn't have made the difference. Even in April 1943, the Allies would have pivoted and overcome the new threat as they did with other German tactics.
@@ronhudson3730 "The U.S. effort could have been redirected to night bombing"
The vast majority of US aircrews did not have the training for that.
And the aircraft didn't have it at all, although there it's much easier to fix.
And even outside of that, you do realise that the already minimal accuracy would become less than abysmal?
Like, something along the lines of maybe 1% of what historically hit during daytime raids would hit a target during nighttime raids.
Losses due to navigation failure would increase by at least a magnitude, probably more.
And already historically, we got some B-17s that got lost all the way up here, literally across the Baltic, and they still managed to mistakenly fly here thinking it was UK, or they simply had no clue where they were.
More importantly, nighttime raids means those bombers have zero or minimal escorts.
And if Germany managed to force USA to switch to night raids, they would absolutely prioritise nightfighters more.
And with a drastically reduced effect from the bombing campaign?
Germany COULD afford to build and field many more nightfighters.
Most likely, this means USA bombers would STILL end up taking more losses than historically.
Having no raids during the day means German would continue to function vastly better, it would allow them to rest pilots better and give them time to recover from damage far better.
Essentially, Germany would still shoot down more US bombers than historically AND be far better off overall.
So no, switching to nightbombing is definitely not a fix.
Especially as USA would have to first take 3-4 months minimum to make sure their aircrews could handle night raids.
"when the 262 would have been largely impotent."
Who cares? Don't need the jets advantage when there's no escorts.
"No single weapon could win a war that was lost on day-1."
Obviously.
@@allangibson8494 "at the 300rpm firing rate."
Uh-huh... Please DO explain exactly how 4 guns, each with 650 RPM ends up with a total of 300 RPM...
"so only managed to put less than ten rounds in the direction of the target with each pass"
While this is just as false as your above statement, even if true, so what?
The Germans had found that on average, a heavy bomber like B-17 only needed to take FOUR hits from the guns used to be shot down.
Single engine fighters were generally completely destroyed from a single hit.
"Shooting down a bomber is very hard"
Which is why Germany turned to the Mk-108 30mm cannons yes. See above, FOUR hits was the AVERAGE required to shoot down heavy bombers.
Hilarious that the German pilot thought they could have stopped the US Army. The fact is, Germany was going to get it's A$$ kicked either way, and a bunch of rookie pilots , flying suicide missions, wasn't going to change that. The US thought so little of Germany, that they were fighting a real war in the Pacific, while they were goofing off in Europe.
@@oscartango2348 American bomber crews suffered the highest loss rates during the war, American victory came at a very high price, too high.
Yes, so little that the US needed nearly 3 times the divisions in the ETO and MTO to defeat them, even though the Red Army did much of the fighting. I appreciate this was a funny comment, but if you are an American you need remember your Allies (Soviet Union and China), who did much of the dying.
Sorry! But you think very strangely. Of course, the war had only been prolonged, but the US was close to being forced to stop bombing during the day and if the Me262 came earlier, its development would also have come earlier, with air brakes for shorter approaches and other things. Which also meant that the P51 did not have as easy a shot down the Me262 as they now had. This was a very sloppy video made by someone who obviously only sees the US as too superior, which was also wrong. The losses of US pilots would perhaps have increased greatly and tactics would have been forced to change so that everything you describe looked completely different. You show a very simple scenario which is completely wrong. Everyone knows that the only way for the P51 to be able to shoot down an Me 262 with a high degree of certainty was to do so as they came in for landing. And even that decreases with more Me 262s in the air.... So there are many more factors than the ones you mention... You are not a historian, or maybe you are a very bad one.
Thanks for the comment Jan. I haven't made anything up in this video and if you believe that Allied air power wasn't superior in 1944-1945, then I'm not sure I can reason with you.
I'm also totally confused about how more Me 262s taking off and landing would lead to a reduced chance in them being caught by Allied fighters.
As ever, if you don't like my channel, feel free to watch something else. 😉
@@CalibanRising Don't waste your energy Caliban, you see these shmucks in any comments section of any videos trying to give an honest account of German technology. "Just because it's German doesn't mean it's better" isn't a thought that these guys can even PROCESS on a basic level without foaming at the mouth crying about Allied bias and revisionism of history. Great content btw.
@@yashkasheriff9325 Germany was in fact the worlds leader in aerospace technology during WW2.. the evidence for this is irrefutable.
Are you afraid someone will call you a Nazi if you admit the truth?
the 262 was sort of the tiger tank of the sky, to complex, a gas hog, and VERY unreliable , operationally they were way overrated. it would have took around 3000 finished 262s to send 700 or so to battle. its engines were intended to make a 100 hour tbo , that was cut to 25 hours TBO and ended up being 8-12 hours then junk -- its the worst i have ever heard of, even ww1 era engines lasted longer and as the engines aged in their 12 hour lifespan the thrust was dropping like a rock
An absolutely terrible analogy... and completely untrue, the Allies had nothing comparable to the performance of the Me-262.
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke I wouldn't say terrible....
too complex...tick
unreliable....tick
Gas hog.... tick
On your side - Yes it is true the Germans were more advanced in jet and swept wing tech........
@@sirfrancis9619 More complex than the B-29? NO
More unrelaible than the Lockheed P-80? NO
Gas Hog? Compared to what? The Allies fastest aircraft was 120 mph slower.
That fact is irrefutable, which is the source of most of its anti-German bias among armchair warriors.
Cheers Mate!
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke We are talking early jet tech......so yeah it was complicated and it was unreliable. If a pilot throttled up too quickly the engines tended to flame out. Hence they needed escort fighters over their airbases to protect them from marauding Allied fighters. They also had short engine lifespans and short range.
Once up to speed and at altitude, if used with zoom tactics they were very effective against bombers with their heavy armament and could avoid Allied fighters.
It did use more fuel than the 109 and 190 and while that wouldn't worry the Allies it certainly was an issue for fuel starved Reich.
Not having a go at the Me262. I think it was an amazing bit of technology, ahead of its time. But it was new tech and thus had 'issues'. Not sure what your 'anti - German bias' accusation is about. I'm just stating facts. The German war machine was the most potent pound for pound in WW2 no doubt.
@@sirfrancis9619 Cheaper and required less man-hours to build than a Merlin engine or a P-51 Mustang.
All 1st Gen jet engines had manual fuel controls, the -004 was easier to fly than Allied engines that did not have throttle dampers, governor fuel injection and automatic variable exhaust jet nozzle.
Moot point really, the Me-262 had a 465mph continuous cruising speed... no need for snappy throttle response, propeller driven fighters were completely outclassed.
The Americans exhaustively tested the Me-262 during Operation LUSTY and confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, better than Allied piston engines, a skilled ground crew could change an engine in less than an hour, a job that could take more than two days on some Allied fighters.
The Me-262 had an excellent range for an interceptor, better than many postwar jets.
But it was much faster than the 109 and the 190... you can't escape fundamental physics, more power means more fuel.
It was more fuel efficient than Allied jets and faster.
No one wants to admit to suffering from Tiger envy or Me-262 envy... god forbid you say they were better... you might be called a Nazi!!!
From books that i have read. The high numbers of claims did not match the allies figures This is actually stated in this video.kill rate lower than stated. Without dive brakes the time on Target was less than 2 seconds making aiming impossible.(Galland) The pilots needed air time which with engine life impossible. I have a library of books which confirm this.incluing a book of verified Allied kills 1943 1945.
_But Allied loss figures are incomplete_ so many aircraft losses were never recorded or listed only as missing, official British records for aircraft losses prior to 1947 do not exist. 550 enemy kills is a very conservative estimate with some as high as 1,500.
Thats a ridiculous notion that doesn't hold water, many kills were made nearly head-on with only a fraction of the closure time to target.
Like the P-51 Mustang and Spitfire, the Me-262 didn't need dive brakes... it was a fighter not a dive bomber.
The Me-262 was equipped with the most powerful and effective standard gun package of any WW2 fighter and many were equipped with the advanced EZ 42 caged gyro-stabilized sighting system w/ heads up display.
It significantly improved both the effective range and accuracy of cannon fire by up to 50% and shots could be made with deflection angles as low as 20 degrees with under 1 deg. of deviation, vastly superior to Allied sights and only a single 30mm shell was needed to blow the wing or the tail completely off a 4-engine bomber or completely disintegrate a fighter like a Spitfire.
The Me-262 has excellent engines by the standards of the day, they easily passed and exceed the RLMs 100-hour PFTR test for adoption into Luftwaffe service Tests conducted by the Americans confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, better than high output versions of the Merlin or R2800!
I understand that many people love collecting comics, but you should not use these books as a reference for historical evidence, they, like many British history books are mostly fiction and have a highly biased Allied slant.
After the war, the under-appreciated Gloster Meteor broke the World Air Speed Record at 616mph in level flight, faster than the lauded Me262 ever achieved.
*On Aug. 19th 1944, Luftwaffe pilot Heinz Herlitzius took off from Flugplatz Leipheim and reached a record top speed in level flight for air breathing combat aircraft of 624mph (1004km/h) in a Messerschmitt Me 262 (an official DAC record). This was the fastest flight of a production combat aircraft until the F-86 Sabre in Sept 14, 1948 at 670mph.*
Unfortunately, during the war the Meteor struggled to keep up with propeller aircraft that outperformed it... the Meteor was rendered completely obsolete by superior swept wing aircraft after the war.
The RAF would not have an effective jet fighter until the 1950s with the introduction of the Hawker Hunter.... an example of just how quickly the British fell behind in jet technology.
I never mentioned the type of engine. I am listening to Winkle
Brown Interview. as I type. He was in charge of the Farnborough enemy aircraft flight and flew all of the captured aircraft after the war..I am only stating what a lot of pilots said. Both British and German.The 262 was hard to fly The pilots needed a lot of flight time but couldnt due the shortage of engines and high accident rate during training..
True, you did not mention the specific engine model, it is also very obvious from your comments that you lack sufficient knowledge on this subject to properly distinguish which engine was used in the production models and have confused it with early prototypes that were abandoned and replaced with improved versions.
All jet aircraft require additional training and flight time to successfully transition... this was true with Allied jets which had even higher accident rates and hull loss accidents than the Me-262... the Me-262 was the only successful operational jet fighter in service during WW2.
There was a limited supply of engines for testing after the war, obviously because production had stopped, and maintenance depots had been disbanded.
But a s rap life of 25 hours.They didnt have the metals to create a strong engine. The kill rate didnt even match the loss rate from accidents let alone those shot down with unskilled pilots as experienced pilots were lost. This information is from Eric Brown's and Gallands book.Galland loved it but didn't trust it .
Please stop posting misinformation and ignorance on this topic. The Jumo 109-004 A models made with _Krupp P-198 Chromadur_ NEVER SAW PRODUCTION OR SERVICE, these experimental engines were never used in the Me-262.
The Jumo 109-004 B models easily surpassed the Luftwaffe's 100 hour PFTR reliability test, the exact same standard used by both the RAF and the USAAF during WW2.
The Americans exhaustively tested the Me-262 as part of Operation LUSTY and confirmed engine TBOs averaged 55 hours.
The Jumo engines were easily repaired and overhauled the same as Allied piston engines, the difference is they could be overhauled in forward repair depots without special machining equipment. Combustor liners, turbine and compressor blades could be swapped out, the engine rebalanced and returned to service.
Your comments cannot be trusted if you cannot correctly distinguish engines that saw service from ones that were only experimental.
Eric Brown said the Me-262 was the best aircraft of WW2 and that the Germans were clearly a decade ahead of the Allies in aircraft technology.
No such thing as "Scrap life" this is a purely fictional example of British propaganda myth.
All Luftwaffe aircraft engines were required to pass a 100 hour test before being officially adopted into operational service.
TBOs in actual military service during WW2 averaged around 50 -60 hours before an overhaul was required and these engines were quickly repaired and reused.
RUBBISH! Anyone familiar with WW2 aircraft engines knows this is propaganda rhetoric and revisionist fiction.
Germany required the same reliability standards for combat aircraft as the Allies!
Problem was German Brain power was light years ahead of industrial capacity and resources,no matter how many slavers you have production could NEVER MATCH PAPER WISHES!
It was Britain that created the global slave trade, invented the concentration camp and was responsible for the largest mass genocide in human history... the British have never been made to answer for their crimes against humanity so the morality argument fall short of being credible.