you talk about everyone except the Tuskegee air men. German, Japanese all enemies. why not the black Aces of the sky who the war could not be won without. or maybe i miss that video
It is on my to do list for the very near future! I have actually never seen the 2012 movie "Red Tails", so I have been trying to find time to watch that before I cover them. In addition, I have a Tuskegee Airmen exhibit that I would like to incorporate into that video at my local aviation museum, but I need to figure out how. So it is very near on my to do list, but I wanted to get both of those done first! It is coming though, I promise.
@John hotz They fought for freedom and liberties together with the russian? You are joking ! Half of Europe was enslaved by the tyrants. It would have been good to go east with the Germans and then kill Hitler.
People don't appreciate just how good many Luftwaffe pilots were. Here are the top ten aces of history, followed by some stats of the best combat pilot, as well as best soldier, of the war on any side... Theodor Weissenberger - 208 kills Heinrich Ehrler - 208 kills Hermann Graf - 212 kills Heinz Bär - 220 kills Erich Rudorffer - 222 kills Willie Batz - 237 kills Otto Kittel - 267 kills Gunther Rall - 275 kills Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 kills Erich Hartmann - 352 kills Then there's Hans Ulrich Rudel, the most highly-decorated soldier on any side during WW2. His famous motto is "Only he who gives up on himself is lost." Rudel's record was so astounding, Hitler created a new level of Knight's Cross for him. He continued flying and fighting even after losing his lower right leg in 1945. 2,530 combat missions, during which he was shot down 30 times, rescued downed aircrews 6 times, and escaped from the Soviets while barefoot, covering 30 km in the winter. Alone. Unarmed. Soaking wet after swimming an ice-choked river. His record includes the following... 519+ tanks destroyed 800+ vehicles destroyed 150+ Anti-aircraft positions destroyed 51 air-to-air kills (9 of which were in Stukas against fighters) Also he sank a battleship, a cruiser, a destroyer, and 70 landing craft. After the war, Rudel became a mountain climber in the Andes. Yes, despite a prosthetic leg. His autobiography is called "Trotzdem" (Nevertheless). By far the most heroic soldier of the 20th century. But you'll never hear about him because Hollywood hates him. Why? He never apologized for Nazism.
"But you'll never hear about him because Hollywood hates him. Why? He never apologized for Nazism." That is not the worst reason to hate someone. History is littered with heroic a***les.
Many of them had high scores simply because they were never rotated out, there just were not enough pilots. Unlike American pilots that went home after 25 missions these guys flew until dead, captured or disabled. And even then some still flew.
@@kuhniberti one should separate a person's achievement in their field of expertise from their political, social or religious convictions when evaluating their function in that field. The danger comes, when assessing extraordinary feats leads to glorification of said individuals. Then, invariably, the other aspects of that person's character must be taken into account in order to round off the picture. In the case of Rudel, he was a Nazi and never stopped being one. This should never be forgotten.
The allies pilots only flew tours. The German pilots flew the entire 5 year war. Of Course they had more kills. Also by 1944 it was hard for a allied pilot to even find a German plane to shoot at because they were so outnumbered.
Snort. This is my kinda gag. "It was 20 against 2. I don't know how we did it but we shot them both down." "I saw two guys beating up a woman so I stopped to help. She was tougher than she looked but we whipped her.
I live in Parchim. I visit his grave quite often. It is located just a few meters from my family grave. I think only a few people know who was actually buried there. Which surprises me very much. Sometimes there are a few flowers there, I will continue to visit and remember him.
Good video, here is some additional information. Georg-Peter Eder had 12 confirmed in the Me-262, another 12 unconfirmed. Kurt Welter had 30 claims as both a day and night fighter pilot in the Me-262. Walter Nowotny was actually not shot down. His Me-262 was damaged after he scored his third heavy bomber kill, but his right engine was damaged, smoking. As he came in to land, he was spotted by Edward R. "Buddy" Haydon of the 352nd FG who dropped down, skirting the treeline. Trying to avoid the German AA fire he saw Nowotny bank for his landing. Losing sight of him, Haydon lifted above the trees, the caught sight of him again. At that time, Ernest Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG also saw Nowotny and dived in firing, but he was too far away to get any hits. Haydon chopped power so to not overshoot the 262. He pulled within 50 feet of Nowotny, on his 9 o'clock left. Nowotny looked over, and Haydon said that he had a "surprised look on his face, like man I just screwed up." Haydon never fired, because Nowotony's jet stalled after losing all power, and plunged into the ground. Adolf Galland and Eder were a couple of hundred yards away and saw the event. I interviewed Haydon, Galland and Eder about the event. Haydon and Fiebelkorn (KIA in Korea) shared the kill, although not a single fighter round hit him. My book, "The Me-262 Stormbird" has all three accounts, and my latest book, "Above the Reich" has the full Haydon interview. My older book, "The German Aces Speak" has Galland's interview, where he also discussed the event. Franz Schall was officially credited with 14 kills in the jet with another 10 damaged/probables, Heinrich Baer with 16 confirmed kills, Erich Rudoerffer with 12 in the jet, and Hermann Buchner with 12. These pilots all had more claims, but these were the victories that could be confirmed.
Is it true that he his parachute got caught on the tail of his jet when he was trying to bail out. And apparently his engined suffered from a malfunction or some kind of blowout, I’m wondering is this true or not.
Lol hey I just finished that book! Thank you for writing that Mr Heaton, and I love your amazon photo with THE Günther Rall. I didn't realize nowotny was not hit at all, but I did hear some story that he was not wearing his lucky trousers that day. Thanks for the treasure trove of interviews in that book! Horrido!
Sounds to me like he was shot down by a bomber gunner and finally crashed, And the German jet engines were extremely unreliable due to the lack of proper alloys for the job. Engines were only good for a few missions at best.
@@danphariss133 every 25 hours they had to be replaced. It was cheaper to make them with non alloys, and only took 1 hour to change out an engine, or so I read . . .
Everyone that lived through WW2 has a story, we get to see and hear them one at a time on TJ3 and it never fails to deliver. Thank you for you service.
In high school, I had a social studies teacher who had been navigator on a Lancaster bomber. He described how they had just bombed Hamburg for the 3rd time, and after that they called it Hamburger. So while the crews were gathering around waiting for debriefing he went up to a friend from another bomber crew, tapped him on the shoulder and said, "wasn't that a piece of cake". He said the guy turned around with a face white as a sheet and said, "what do you mean a piece of cake?". He found out after that his friends aircraft was the only surviving bomber from a flight of six that a ME262 made one pass upon. According to my teacher, that ME262 shot down 5 of the 6 Lancaster bombers on that single pass. Now, I'm going to be told that's impossible, never happened, no way 1 fighter could shoot down 5 of 6 Lancaster bombers on a single strafing run, but I swear, that's exactly how I heard it out of my social study teachers mouth.
A} Lancasters flew at night, while the 262 was a day fighter (B the 262 was designed as a bomber destroyer, with a very heavy armament of 4 X 30mm cannon. So perhaps it if got close enough it could do that, or perhaps there was a second plane that wasn't seen, or perhaps some of those planes were already damaged.
@@thracianTV I once saw a documentary on TV about the battle of Berlin. An old German vet was saying 6 tanks came down the road, 3 Shermans and 3 T-34s, so his commander loaded a special shell into their 88 and destroyed all 6 with that one shot. That story also seems difficult to believe, but I've heard so many others about 88s who really knows?
Stories take on a life of their own and this one, as described, is coming secondhand. Lancaster losses could be significant (a 44% death rate with further losses from injuries or capture. I imagine it was terrifying flying in the dark into flak with night fighters on the prowl. Night fighters would typically be larger aircraft such as Ju88s or Me110s (able to mount radar equipment and heavy weapons for attacking large targets). Air crews would not necessarily see what was attacking them. And if they saw twin engine Messerschmidt illuminated in some searchlight a Me110 becomes a Me262 in later retelling. But Hamburg was bombed in 1943 while the first operational squadron flying Me262s was in 1944. The most unlikely part of the story is so many bombers in a formation being taken out in one pass by a single aircraft as they would not be flying in some convenient line that would make them vulnerable to such an attack. Not claiming that a formation of bombers could not suffer such a loss of aircraft on a single mission (see death rate, above), just not from a single pass and probably not from a single attacker. I don't have stats for it but I understand that losses for Lancaster bombers decreased later in the war as systems like gun laying radar for rear turrets helped tail gunners locate and engage night fighters. The massive technological advancements for the Allies are frequently ignored in favor of fascination with Nazi wonder weapons.
Me-262's were used as night fighters toward the end of the war. There was a two-seat radar-equipped version, the Me 262B-1a/U1. But the night fighter pilot who was most successful with the 262 was Kurt Welter, who flew the basic day fighter version, using Wilde Sau tactics.
I attended an aircraft mechanic school in Tulsa. They had a cutaway Jumo engine displayed in a classroom. I liked to stand there and spin the turbine while I contemplated.
That really is kind of cool story my friend. I'll say one thing that generation German American English whatever was far superior to mine. But they might not have been that way without a war to fight and I'm happy not to have to fight one to find out. God bless all of who died for our freedom. I even feel sorry for the Germans cuz they just got brainwashed. I'm German supposedly and my great grandfather was SS. Not a thing I'm proud of at all but I'm as far from a Nazi as they come. So was my grandfather. Unlike his father I never met a more kind man in my life. I'm proud to say I was his grandson as far as my great-grandfather I would have killed him myself if I had a time machine
@@BJETNT Impressive statement. You'd kill a person you never met and likely have no insight of what he actually did or his motivations and on top of that, a family member. These are the modern times gentlemen: 300000 years and the Homo Sapiens is still stuck in the mud.
@@BJETNT Dear friend why soooo much hatred?? Are you sure that all SS soldiers were. Monsters or cold killers!?? In Normandy the advance of a Canadian brigade came to stoppage cause of an SS Panzergrenadier Company of 14-18years old boys! At the end the Canadians use some Tank regiments took the place and some survivors as prisoners! After they realised that they have fought against schoolboys they have bitten these boys to the death! We have plenty of photographs showing the brutality against unurmed prisoners! Are all Canadians monsters and killers?? Are all the special forces soldiers monsters and criminals!?? Your fellow Americans have dropped a bomb on Nagasaki Japan although the war was already Over and the Japanese Army defeated!. They killed 64.000 unarmed citizens and 160.000 innocent people, years after the war end cause of the radiation! Those GREAT PILOTS have been a declared as Heroes and have received decorations! Please be more Human and mercy full! As an Aviator I have talked with some US pilots... Some of them have found the mass Bombardements over the civilian Targets in Germany as a very Dispiteful mission. Good and Evil people are to be found on every Side of the front! Let as learn and not follow the path of destruction! Stay healthy and protected!
Another highly experienced Me 262 pilot (R.I.P. Alfred Ambs) told me, that they were always overwhelming outnumbered by allied fighters. After achieving the last of his 8 aerial victories - of which 7 were confirmed - he was jumped by a P-51 from above and behind and badly hit and wounded. Alfred told me, that he didn't notice the Mustang 'til it was too late. Luckily he was able to bail out and spent the last days of war in hospital. Lt. Alfred Ambs was a member of 11./JG 7 and flew Me 262 "Yellow 5".
If memory serves Ambs was one of the ME262s the "Red Tail's" shot down in their famous engagement they got a unit citation. Played out a bit different then the rather lackluster recent "Red Tails" film portrayed things, but that is Hollywood for you. Related to his "confirmed victories" though, none of Alfred Ambs kill claims were ever confirmed because the OKL's kill claim system was horribly backlogged and when the war ended the OKL was still processing claims from November 1944 on VE day. Most (if not all) of Ambs claims were in March and April 1945, so none of them were ever processed and verified by the OKL and are thus unconfirmed. This also applies to basically all ME262 pilot claims since the vast majority were made in 1945 and thus never actually vetted. A look at US loss records tends to show lower losses than the ME262 pilots claimed, which makes sense given it was generally found pilots overclaimed by a factor of 2, hence why all the air-forces of different countries put the claims through a vetting system to weed out overclaiming.
@@kellyshistory306 It's true, Alfred's victories were never official confirmed in the last days of WW2, but I remember well that his stories were extraordinarly precise. He could explain every detail of the Me 262 and his missions. He explained exactly what types of enemy planes he hit, where he hit and what happened with this planes after his hits. I have to confess, that no one of us listeners had the idea to write down those stories. Now it's too late and I'm not able to repeat his exactly reminiscences. So it's possible that you are right with the number of his "kills" but we - his friends and relatives - believed him.
@John hotz outgunned but fast as a prop plane. .50cals had a rate of 450 shots per minute. I believe, The guns they fought against (German cannons) fired 600 to 650 shots per minute whilest the projectiles are almost 2 times bigger . It was our big numbers of vehicles and people that made them lose. No one wins against the entire f-ing planet with a nation the size of a European country. Lol. But because of people not understanding this, you suddenly get stories about superior machines on the Allied side. I am sorry but i think that a P-51only won by its large numbers it came in. While the Nazi's only had a hand full of machines to fight them. 1 vs 1 we would be eating and speaking German stuff, okay?!
@@josefhorndl3469 Ambs has a couple of accounts in book on the ME262, in particular Manfred Boehme recounts some of Ambs claims his book on JG7, so those accounts may be preserved in books. That said, overclaiming isn't lying, its can be mis-seeing or misinterpreting what occurs in the rush of combat. Most pilots submit claims in good faith because they sincerely believe they destroyed those aircraft. I'm not sure what tales Alfred Ambs shared with you, but Manfred Boehme cites an account by him which goes the following way: -Ambs shoots a US bomber he dives on, whose bombs (or something) explodes and destroys two other bombers -Ambs wingman who is also diving flies into the explosion and is also destroyed -As Ambs pulls away he looks back and sees his other wingman shoot down two bombers with gunfire. --> 5 Bomber losses The US post-raid report, plus testimony from other bomber crews in the formation on the Missing air crew reports reports things similarly yet different: -An ME262 is seen to collide with one bomber, causing it and the ME262 to blow up. -No bombers are destroyed in the explosion. -Two other bombers from the formation are shot down by gunfire ---> 3 Bomber losses (the only bomber losses from that formation) I don't know if that is an account Ambs mentioned to you, but its one Manfred Boehme ascribes to him. On the other hand several of Ambs other claims fall on days where there are US losses of that type so its not like every claim he made can't be true. But when it comes to ME262 claims, there often are not enough destroyed aircraft to fit the claims.
@@kellyshistory306 Thanks for sharing these informations with me. I can remember, that Alfred told us when he hit one bomber - I believe he said it was a "Fliegende Festung" (Flying Fortress) - the bomber exploded and the explosion forced another B-17 to leave the formation. He said this second bomber went straight down to earth. The stories of his wingmans (Rottenflieger) are new to me. I remember that his wife said in one occasion to me, that they are not so happy with "the book of Manfred Boehme", but I don't know why. So maybe that there are some stories printed, which are not exactly the stories of Alfred. Keep on searching for facts - I know it's not easy. Bye
137 kills before a tragic accident while hitting a bombed out runway hole during landing. Schall was a Me 262 Jet Luftwaffe Ace and it seems a brilliant tactician during air combat. Too bad he didn't survive. A movie should be made on him by Hollywood. Respects from India.
@@ryarbrough1195 Not all Luftwaffe personels were "nazi". If u think that all soldiers were Nazi is like saying that the civilians living there were all nazis too. Its not fair to say that all the personels that joined the war was nazis, some fought for their country and some fought for their leader. Im not an nazi apologist but i hate people thinking the soldiers who particulary fought for the german side were all nazis. There are a bunch of proof that most of them weren't nazis. Only a small percentage of soldiers were related to the holocaust which is mostly the SS. Most of them fought in the front ecspecially the luftwaffe who were fighting in the skies which has not at all relation to the holocaust. Most of them did their duty and did what they were told to.
I love German engineering. They were decades ahead in that field. Jet fighters, radio controlled bombd( used successfully) rocket planes ( komet 163 ), MG42 Stg44 etc etc.
US official record show approx 550 P51b/c/d 's were shot down in air to air combat in Europe. So your saying that ME262's shot down 33% of them? Id have to see official western records to believe that.
@@dougmccarthy961 I have got and also read a large number of books on the air war over europe and the majority of them state that the offical number of p51s lost in combat is 2520. Over half were in air combat. Most were lost in combat with fw190 of all mks. The history of JG7 has a listing of victories of 262 units and the total number of P51 lost adds up to 184.
There are 2 rebuilt ME 262s using General Electric engines flying out of Washington state they are on Utube so check them out ua-cam.com/video/o8HblYdUUcg/v-deo.html
The maneuverability of the Me 262 with modern replica engine’s is superior to most of todays fighter’s. I got that from a USAF pilot who worked on the rebuild if 2 of them.
I enjoyed this video. With the 262 being such a new platform, it would have been of interest in knowing what tactics the german pilots learned on their way to becoming an ace.
Speed, and no turning. The main one they taught was attack from above and behind, diving down and continuing away. Not much more than that. The 262 couldn't dogfight very well at all- so it's incorrect to talk about that- and it's only real advantage was heavy firepower and speed. Get fast, hit hard, get away.
The only thing that bothers me, is the fact that the german wikipedia doesn't contain an article about franz schall, he isn't even mentioned in the list of german flying aces from WWII. But O.K. he seems to have existed. Because I found him in the List of Knights-Cross recipents. And there he stands with everything you claimed in your you-tube video. So good work, no idea why he was forgotten by the german wikipedia.
Wikipedia is a user based source material and is only as good as those who post things. It's much like youtube with a lot of errors and exaggerated or opinion based information. Also even the Luftwaffe itself had their favorites. Adolf Galland was a prime example, he was a German Propaganda golden boy but in reality not really much of a hero.
........the winners write the history,.....so this being the case, naturally it's full of lies & twisted truth about the losers - some twisted truth is all that's left in all of history......
@@ericrumpel3105 well look at the case of the Horten Brothers and the Ho 229.. it never reached prototype stage as it was a project to test the flying wing only. Three very different airframe were made with the V1 being a glider designed by the Hortons and V2 a jet powered experimental designed with the Hortons and outside help. The V3 was 100% designed by the Gotha team with little to no input from the Hortons. David M. Wrote a book on the 228 in which he interviewed the Horton brothers. Now one of the brother had been trying very hard to become part of the German engineers and designers who went to the US and worked with aviation companies there but the truth is he lacked basic understanding of aircraft design. See they were bicycle designers who branched out into building gliders only. The author never fact checked and too all the claims as fact creating a mythical life for the 229 that isn't real. So while the Victor's do write much of the books other books are indeed written from the loosing perspective some factual while others are complete fabrications. Other false claims made post war were that a German bomber reached New York and that the me 262 could reach 550 mph in combat trim.
You never used the word "kill" talking to German Aces, they used the word "victory". I talked to several including Dolfo Galland and was friends with Max Steinhoff for years. Both flew 262s
Could be he was the one who shut down the killer who tried to kill my grandma on her way to the hospital where she worked as a nurse. She praid the german may win and so it came. Really a shame that the US and others were shooting at women and even children playing in a sandbox.
@@andreassiemund4101 You‘re trying to paint Allied pilots as monsters in general. That‘s certainly not true. Be specific and supply facts instead of writing general accusations. When did this happen? Where exactly? What type of fighter plane was it? Was it day or night?
@@katarn999 The Allies were monsters. The British, Americans, and especially the Soviets were the true monsters. And we are still ruled by these monsters.
@@MrSolus-ls6us Ah.... I see... a friend of conspiracy theories I presume? Certainly, the Allies were not pure as freshly fallen snow - that would be an incorrect statement indeed. But so is that they were all monsters as you say. Never generalize, never deal in absolutes. A pretty simple - and might I add biased - view of history that you have there.
Would like to have learned something about his tactics. The Me-262 made a huge circle when turning at speeds near 600mph. So they were not turn fighters by any stretch. They were energy fighters being able to swoop in kill or miss and zoom away because nothing else could catch them. If they had to turn much at all they would find themselves below 400mph and vulnerable to these same P51's at bomber altitudes. If they pulled a hard turn they would find themselves in the area of 300mph which left them vulnerable to a lot of planes that could both fly and maneuver much better than the Me-262 at that speed. They could zoom up losing speed all the time and then zoom back down recovering the speed and energy they lost climbing, make their attack and either speed away or zoom back up for another try. Would really liked to have heard what his tactics were instead of the stats.
@@MagpieOz Yep. Especially the German claim that they were vastly outnumbered by allied fighters. On the other hand, Chuck Yeager is far more credible and a true ace with, hold your breath, 11 ELEVEN kills. This casts a shadow over lying German aces that claimed having up to 200 two hundred or even 300 three hundred kills.
@@luisgonzagaosollo7970 it certainly does. It is well publicised that Luftwaffe claims were poorly compiled, often attributed the kills of a flight to the ace flight leader and were exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Also add into that the fact that German pilots stayed in combat more or less until death where Allied pilots were cycled through operational tours and it's not surprising they have bigger numbers from which it is difficult if not pointless to make any sort if assessment.
@@MagpieOz Ok. So you've probably done the research and math. Did Erich Hartmann really shoot down 352 planes? Did Hans-Joachim Marseille really down 152 fighters, 16 in one day? And others. Can you give us your sources. I gots to know.
@@MagpieOz I can well believe the German numbers are inflated. On the other hand, I can also believe German pilots sometimes were able to shoot down high numbers of planes fighting against the Soviets. Does anyone know more about the training level of Soviet pilots and the quality of their planes?
Probably my great granduncle would have flown the Me262 top, he was a Pilot since day one and also combat experienced, 5 Kills and I think also the flight clasp in silver or nearly silver. Sadly died defending civilians from USAAF bombing raids in 1944 over Munich. I will never forget him.
The likes of Heinz Bar, Otto Kittel and Wilhelm Schnaufer would have graced the air force post WW2. They were absolute legends. The Me262 was a breathtaking aircraft. Face to face at Smithsonian in 2012
those nazi murderers are evil men, they murdered good Allied aircrews on behalf of hitler. piss on his evil grave. I hope his burning death was slow and painful, the rightful fate of all who killed Allied crew.
So were crews of Allied Bombers who needlessly killed people in Dresden and Hamburg, specially when Dresden was far off from the war front. It was a warning to Soviet Russia in the new post war age.
Von "Dave" kommt Scheiße und "Ganguli" erwähnt hier etwas, das aber auf allesn Seiten stattfand. Dazu muß angeführt werden, das es noch heute Piloten und Mannschaften dieser Bomber gibt, welche unter Tränen erzählen was sie damals taten und was sie nicht wollten, sie wußten das "da unten" keine Soldaten waren und zeit ihres Lebens ganz bestimmte Bilder vor den Augen haben/hatten...
There were many great aces in the Luftwaffe. They had no rotations, no time off to recharge, under pressure non stop, and they ended up being the best fighter pilots in history to date. Amazing pilots with amazing skills and a deep passion for aviation rooted in their hearts. Some of became double or triple ace in a day! The amount of ingenuity, quick thinking and accuracy was second to none. The only time off they would have ,would be when they were wounded,or other extreme situations. Imagine bailing out once, cheating death and having to go back up at some point..Soon..Now, x30..The mental fortitude required to perform at this level is just beyond words. You did a good job , capturing the The pilot, the planes, and the history behind a remarquable pilot. The tally sounds a bit on the high end but I enjoyed the dynamic of the video. Keep them coming ! You're good at this!
"They had no rotations, no time off to recharge, under pressure non stop, and they ended up being the best fighter pilots in history to date." German discipline, German education system, and love of the Fatherland all must've played a role.
"Luftwaffe pilots eventually learned how to handle the Me 262's higher speed and the Me 262 soon proved a formidable air superiority fighter, with pilots such as Franz Schall managing to shoot down seventeen enemy fighters in the Me 262, ten of them American P-51 Mustangs."
not really when you look at the big picture over NW Europe. During Mar, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount a large full scale attack on Allied bomber formations. On 18 Mar 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. Although a four-to-one ratio was exactly what the Luftwaffe would have needed to make an impact on the war, the absolute scale of their success was minor, as it represented only one per cent of the attacking force. Keep in mind that In 1943 and early 1944, the USAAF had been able to keep up offensive operations despite loss ratios of 5% and more.
Problem was,that the MK108 cannon with it's slow rate of fire and low muzzle velocity was a maior draw back for this speed,on the other hand,you needed but one 30mm hit to obliterate a fighter.yet I doubt Schall's claims!
@@pebo8306 :So do I. I'm tired of some implying that the US Pilots "Exaggerated" their claims, and yet soo many can't seem to verify others claims! I understand "Gun Camera" and "eye witness" to verify, if your in a dogfight, your wingman is up to HIS neck with fighters, how will an "Eye Witness" be found, the enemy you just shot down? I believe if it's NOT at least on camera, it's NOT verified!
@@pebo8306 ME262 claims are in excess of US losses for most days, you're right to doubt them. Important to note the Luftwaffe never confirmed any pilots claims past November 1944 due to a huge backlog of kill claims to process when the war ended, so almost every ME262 pilots claim is unverified in the eyes of the Luftwaffe. A few of days in March 1945 ME262 pilots officially submitted kills on US bombers but no US bombing forces encountered jets or recorded losses. Problem is FLAK was a huge killer of US bombers in 1945 since so many guns were concentrated in a much reduced Germany, so there has been a tendency to not realize many US losses on days the ME262s attacked US bombers were aircraft shot down by flak. Only if you read through the individual missing air crew reports (MACRs) written for each lost bomber can you identify losses to causes. From my own look through the the records you see anywhere from 200 to 300% over claiming by ME262 pilots. Actual exchange rate for JG7 at least was about 1:1, which was good given the circumstances since the ME109s or FW190s in 1945 were losing 3-5 aircraft for every 8th Air Force aircraft they shot down, but its certainly not the 4:1 often ascribed to them.
@@kellyshistory306 I agree.What makes me doubt Schall's claims is,that fighters were not on a 262's bucket list!You would have been a fool to seek dogfight with a piston fighter.You could zoom-and boom,but that's about it.On the other hand;4 hits with the 30mm and a 4 engine bomber with 10 men went down!
@@joro5748 Yes it was a daylight op. Though my dad never mentioned it, it was the 2nd daylight op they'd done alongside 617 squadron who were carrying the 10 ton earthquake bomb
A good portion of RAF bomber Commands raids in 1944/45 were daylight raids, something like 18000 daylight sorties vs 44000 night sorties in 1945 for example. Generally Bomber Command preferred night raids though as German flak was less lethal at night and the lower numbers of aircraft sidelined with flak damage kept operational readiness high. Also the moving forward of RAF blind bombing aids like GEE, OBOE and Gee-H to the front lines after the breakout from Normandy negated the need to bomb in daylight since the practical accuracy of those blind bomb systems was generally on par with daylight visual bombing.
@@samkangal8428 G'day, As the Australian Imperial Forces (both 1st & 2nd) put it, "If you can't take a Joke, Then you never Should've Volunteered...; Digger !" It's all a Game of Blood..., In the End... But Never ye F'rget..., "Kill 'em Dead'll Win a Medal ; Every Bloody Time...! Gott Mit Uns ! Theory, Y'see... "Waaauuughhh !" is the vocalisation uttered by ALL Primate Species, when they are sufficiently Hungry, Angry, or Frightened as to be prepared to kill a member of their own Species - in the hopes of making themselves feel better. Any time "A State of Waaauuugh(!)" is considered to have been "legitimately and lawfully declared" then otherwise pleasant individuals happily enlist to be paid to train to kill Strangers on the "Orders" of a Politician for whom they may not choose to vote - all because their "National Honour" requires them to fight to the death in a Ditch defending a Crossroad in the middle of nowhere that anybody in their Family has ever heard of... Waaaauugh(!)time, y'see, it's great for flagging EcoGnomies..., Politically ; all shortages and inefficiencies are easy to blame on the exigencies of Waaauugh(!), or the actions of the Designated Enemy (Any Me, y'see ?). Twenty to forty years after they stop shooting at each other, surviving veterans from both sides are meeting up for joint Reunions, back on the Battlefields. And they all agree that none of them ever had any valid personal reason to have been trying to kill each other, other than the political Bullshit which they were raised to revere..., patriotically and wihhout question. But, ALL Waaauugh(!) Is ALWAYS ALL Bullshit In Hindsight, 30 years Later.... I suggest that on the overwhelming evidence to hand, we immediately cease to practice or indulge in all and any type of Waaauugh(!)fare, offensive or defensive, pre-emptive, punitive or aquisitive...; rather than go ahead with pretending that the State of Waaauugh(!) makes any kind of sense - in the long run. Just(ifiably ?) sayin'. I once spent 3 years nursing 2,000 Veterans of every Military Adventure in which Oz participated between 1914 & 1984, for an average of 10 days per Vet...; when I trained at Repatriation General Hospital, Concord, Sydney, Oz. Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !
Fuel was not so much of a problem (they could burn kerosene, literally) but the fact that every single airfield that could house 'jets' would receive multiple visits from a few hundred 4 engine bombers pounding your airfield into a moonscape. But the real 'problem' that an Me 262 had was the engines==Germany didn't have the materials to make metal with high heat resistance and tensile strength, so a jet engine had a rather short life, as well as a tendency to 'flame out' or throw a turbine blade at the worst possible moment.
@@nickmitsialis very good comment. Have you read ‘wings of the luftwaffe’ by Eric Brown? He was a British naval flier and test pilot who flew most German aircraft during and after ww2 , he was very complimentary about the 262 and also the Arado 234b.
American test pilots who flew the the Me-262 said it was an excellent aircraft with superior performance and excellent asymmetric flight characteristics compared to the British Gloster _"Meatbox"_ The Meatbox suffered over 1,000 crashes killing 450 RAF pilots alone... its the worst jet fighter in history.
@@flycatchful Indeed, that applies especially to this topic, Allied sources have gone to great lengths to downplay and dismiss the overwhelming superiority of German jet aircraft technology during WW2.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 The Germans had the technology but not the material to build a reliable jet engine. The turbine blades in particular. This was all brought about because their supply chains were being decimated by allied bombings. If the Germans had introduced this jet in 1940 they may have won the war.
@@flycatchful You really don't know anything about jet engine development during WW2 do you? Germany developed the first high temperature creep resistant nickel alloys in 1935, Krupp P-194 Tinidur-60 alloy out performed Rex-78 and Nimonic 70.
Hackl, I have to say was successful EVERYWHERE. He was like Heinz Baer except he stayed in Prop Jobs the whole war. He even had command of II/JG26 in Late 44/Early 45 and successfully flew the FW19 D9. But he had a hell of a run when he commanded III/JG11 (or even ALL of JG11) against the 8th AAF at the deadliest time of the war. And anyway, I have always wanted clarification as to the story whether he had a 109 AND a 190 at his disposal, depending on whether his job was 'disrupt escorts' or hunt 4 engine bombers.
@@DannyBoy777777 That was not uncommon, especially if 2 or more gruppen were attacking the bomber stream; multiple pilots would often claim the same aircraft, though I think in some cases it's the loose interpretation of the 'herraschuss'(culling or shooting out) to force a bomber from formation, and the final destruction for the awarding of points for decorations.
@@DannyBoy777777 Partly. As did fighter pilots of all nations since aerial kills are hard to pin down. But even so its impressive how they managed to down so many of these huge beasts.
@@DannyBoy777777 American Bombers gunners overclaimed Luftwaffe fighter losses by a factor of 3, sometimes 10. One of the early raids the B-17 gunners claimed 49 German fighters shot down. Post war examination of German records showed a loss of 7 fighters. B-17s were credited with shooting down 10,000 Gernan aircraft. Post war investigation found that way too high. A better figure is 3,000. Their 'success' is based on their own claims.
Hmmm, I always thought the record for jet air of WW2 went to Heinz Bar of JG7 w 16 kills in the 262 and 220 in total. Schall’s 18 is new information; maybe some were unconfirmed? Also Welter “claimed” many Mosquitoes and other night victories that were unconfirmed (20+), but he has been largely discredited! Great video! 👍
Almost all ME262 claims are unconfirmed, the Luftwaffe's confirmation system broke down by November 1944 and nothing claimed after that month was ever properly vetted by the OKL. Vast majority of ME262 sorties occurred from February to April 1945, so almost every claim by a ME262 pilot was never properly vetted like the claims made from Sept 1939 to Nov 1944 were. Doesn't help that it seems the ME262's never had guncamera's fitted so even this basic tool for checking pilot claims was unavailable. Me262 kill numbers are unfortunately rather questionable and usually are in excess of Allied losses for these battles. This is even worse because Flak was a major killer of Allied bomber and fighters (due to low level strafing when RTB), so once you subtract the flak losses and mechanical losses there is often not many kills left over to attribute to the Jets, usually far less than was claimed. The resources to properly cross reference American losses against ME262 pilots claims have only really become easily accessible the last few years as more and more records are digitized. Unfortunately many historians who didn't have access to these sources trusted the recollections of ME262 veterans a bit more than they should, which has inflated the achievements of the ME262. Its telling if you read books on the ME262 from the 1960's, then 1980's, then today, the trend has been to revise down the kills attributed to ME262s.
@John hotz I got a book from my Dad they he bought around 1967 from "Aero Series" on the ME262 that I read through. One thing most people don't realize is there has been a constant trimming down by historians of ME262 kill claims since the post-war period. The "Aero Series" book mentions an attack on April 7th 1945 that shot down "twenty five B-17s." Manfred Boehme in his book on JG7 written in the 1980's, based on his research, only could support the shooting down of 3 US bombers and 3 US fighters. Robert Forsyth in his recent book on JG7 written a few years ago suggests less. I don't meant to disrespect TJ3, but unfortunately the books written about the ME262 are a mess in terms of determining how many aircarft were actually shot down by ME262s, and no historians have actually done a proper examination of the US records to corroborate things. I myself went through all the Missing Air Crew Reports for US aircraft lost on the days in March and April 1945, and the evidence suggests historians have largely "bought" heavily inflated claims made by ME262 pilots that are at times significantly higher then actual US losses. Actually there are a few days when JG7 officially submitted claims against US bombers in which no US bombers were lost and no attacks on bombers were reported. ME262 kill claims are *not* reliable and should be handled with caution.
@@kellyshistory306 Nevertheless, Chuck Yeager stands out in American folklore as an accomplished Ace. 5 kills in one day, even though 2 of his pretended kills were planes that collided in front of him without being shot at. And NOBODY questions this. He has glory and a movie or two to his credit. While German claims are debased as time goes on. The way you're going someday it will eventually turn out that Erich Hartman did not shoot down 352 planes, the lying kraut, but rather only a measly 52. And even so, more than any American "ace".
Those who dispute German claims claims are deluding themselves. Luftwaffe victories were carefully audited, probables and shared claims didn’t count and the evidence was plain to see in the recorded sector on the ground, where they were visited, carefully recorded and inspected by the local police authorities and reported to intelligence and airbases who also visited the wreck for careful inspection and validation. Allied claims over Germany were not verifiable , for obvious reasons. The Germans of course are quite well known for their burocracy … 🤣
Gen ChuckYeager said that mustangs didn't have the speed of the 262s,but he always would follow them back to their bases where they would glide in for a landing and then blow them out if the sky.Once allied pilots found out about their glide tactics,they were easy prey!Thank you for this great video.
So fighters assigned to escort duty would be free to just leave the bomber and go attack some Luftwaffe base? Not very likely. Alot of things claimed to be said today just don't make sense when you put them against standing operational procedures. The allies assigned squadrons to patrol any know Luftwaffe base or section of roadway they operated from shooting down any Luftwaffe air craft taking off or trying to land. This was from the time they moved to mainland Europe. So why would a escort fighter be going to attack landing fighters?
The 8th Air Force recognized they had a problem in February of 1945 when they lost 45 bombers and 15 fighters to Me 262s. But it was the results of April 7, 1945 when it was noted that the Me 262 had changed tactics and went after the fighter escorts shooting down 28 Mustangs as well as 7 bombers. The 8th decided to take action and on 4/10/1945 they sent 1200 bombers out to blow up the Me 262 bases ending the problem.
That was probably the day 8th Air Force decided to bomb a military target instead of bombing German cities, frying hundreds of thousands of civilian women, children, and elderly alive to lower their morale and force them to surrender, unconditionally. Just as the Americans and British had been doing almost daily for the 3 past years. And until this day have never been accountable. "Liberating" Europe for the Soviets to come in and enslave for the next 40 years.
@@luisgonzagaosollo7970 The 8th Air Force usually bombed factories and rail yards, civilian casualties were (widely accepted) collateral damage. It were the Brits under their war hero "Bomber" Harris, who deliberately targeted civilians indiscriminately and in their sleep. The U.S. murdered civilians in Japan by dropping nuclear bombs. However, the Nazis murdered their neighbours and their own people, just because their religious background or political convictions did not fit the overarching Nazi view of the world. And the Soviets murdered mostly their own, by despicably wasteful field tactics and by sending dissidents to Siberia. ...because Stalin. In those years, only the weak were clean.
@@daszieher Then you haven't read about the firebombing of Dresden. Hundreds of thousands of German civilians burned alive in an "open" city. That is, a city which claims not to be heavily guarded. The city was swarmed by hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the advance of the Red Army of Rapists from the east. This medieval city was compared to Rome or Paris in its beauty. But on the 13th and 14th of February 1945, months before German defeat, it was targeted for oblivion by the Americans and British. There are many documentaries about this genocide in UA-cam. And that was not the only civilian target firebombed by the Americans during WWII. Or afterwards. To this day. Self-righteous Americans and their exceptionalism.
@@luisgonzagaosollo7970 I didn't need to read about Dresden. My grandmother's sister was there and told me all about it. After being transferred to the reserves, I was assigned to a unit close to Dresden, so I got to see the city a couple of times. You can still see the traces of that night. We also know that the U.S. committed their fair share of genocide in Japan by dropping nuclear bombs on unarmed civilians, not so in Dresden. The bombs on Dresden were dropped by the British.
Perhaps personal talley's were unconfirmed. I was surprised that Schall was the highest scoring 262 ace. I thought that title went to Heinz Bar (Red 13) I will brush up on my research. Thanks for the amazing video TJ3! Keep up the great work
@@LeopardIL2 No it wasn't. Read more. Caldwell and Muller's Luftwaffe over Germany Defence of the Reich. This so called strict system went out the window. Particularly if a 'successful' pilot made the claim.
It is a myth that P51's could only catch ME 262's during landing or take off, as 70+% of ME 262 kills by P51's were in high altitude, high speed combat during Me 262 attacks on bomber formations. One of the worst days for ME 262's was March 24, 1945 when eight 262's were shot down during an attack on a bomber formation flying at 25,000 ft, by P51B/C/D's of the 332'nd and 31st Fighter Groups, without a loss of any bombers or P51's. The 332nd FG (Tuskegee Airman) shot down 3, while the 31st FG shot down 5 more. For the genuine story of how devastatingly effective the P51B/C/D's were against ME 262's I suggest reading: [ ME 262 Vs P51 1944-45, Robert Forsythe, 2019] . P51B/C/D's killed ME 262's at remarkable rates. From NOV 1944 to MAY 8, 1945, P51B/C/D's shot down more than 140 ME 262's. The comments make it painfully obvious that many WW2 "Amateur Historians" are not aware of the incredible kill record of P51B/C/D's against ME 262's. Initial contact with ME 262's caused 8th Air Force command to consider rushing the in-development Lockheed P-80 to Europe. But when P-51 pilots very quickly figured out how to effectively engage the ME 262, the the P-80 idea was put on the back burner.
@@0Turbox The "900" escort fighters weren't concentrating on the German jets. The escorts were defending the bombers, destroying the Luftwaffe and destroying as much ground transportation and infrastructure as possible. The P51 pilots were ordered by 8th Air Force command to NOT drop the fuel tanks and go after jets, unless the jets were actually attacking bombers. The first reports of the ME 262 caused major worry at 8th AF Bomber Command. But as the Spitfires, Typhoon / Tempests, P47's and P51's demonstrated great ability in killing the jets, the ME 262 slid into the category of "nuisance" rather than "threat". Roughly 80% of all operational ME 262's were shot down by piston-engine fighters.
@@63DW89A The jets were designed and ordered to go after the bombers and doing so, they were attacked by the escorting fighters. Not so hard to comprehend.
from the history, the me262 brought in the new challenge in the airwar. The introduction caused the reconsideration of tactics. The pilots figured out the ways to push back, The observation of the 262, and shooting in front of their path. As was said, hiltler's decision and the point counterpoint in this part of the air war too.
The biggest change was a concentration on Luftwaffe landing fields. That was already underway in general, stopping when there were too few fighter planes on any field to be worth attacking. But the Me262 required long concrete runways and was quite vulnerable during takeoff and landing. The RAF developed a tactic called the "Rat Scramble" where Hawker Tempests were kept on immediate alert would take off when Me262s were observed airborne, and fly direct to the Me262 base at Rheine-Hopsten to patrol around until the Me262s returned from their mission and take them out at low altitude during their landing approach. This was discontinued only after the Germans built a forrest of 20mm AA gun batteries on the approaches to Rheine-Hopsten.
This is quite interesting in various ways, but especially for me in the discussion of how the weapon (the plane) and the bearer of the weapon (the pilot) had to be successfully joined. That is, the ME-262 was a potentially terrifying weapon, but - not in everybody's hands; not everybody reached the level of being able to wield that particular weapon particularly successfully. Which in turn makes me reflect upon how the greatest aces of all time (Erich Hartmann; Wehrner Moelders; etc.) continued to rack up amazing victory scores in planes that already were surpassed and outclassed, at least in terms of the planes themselves: but the melding of the particular pilot with the particular plane was never surpassed, and the pilots who knew how to use those particular weapons with devastating effectiveness remain at the top of the all-time list of aces as such. [Granted, had even brilliant pilots been thrown against vast numbers of adequately trained pilots in superior aircraft at the end of the war, their luck ultimately would have run out - sort of like Wehrner Voss in the First World War, when he fought alone against half a dozen Sopwith Camels with decent pilots, though inferior to him in flying and fighting skills, and ultimately got shot down.] There likely are other examples, from various different military cultures, of pilots who fit particular planes particularly well, even if those planes might have been rated below their typical adversaries. Among these: I was interested to find, recently, the story of one of the top Italian aces of World War II, who flew on the Axis side very successfully before later flying on the Allied side very successfully, all in the same Fiat model, which, like most fighter types of the pre-war years, was under-armed compared to the job it would need to do later in actual aerial combat. [The typical armament of maybe, hopefully, at least one 20-mm cannon and 2 .30-caliber machine guns.] In this pilot's capable hands, that lesser-than-adequate armament translated into a very high rate of kills. A similar example that I recently encountered is of "The White Lily of Stalingrad," one of the first successful female fighter pilots for the Soviet Union, who flew an under-armed if agile early Yakolev type and bested better-armed and more experienced German pilots in advanced Bf-109's, partly because she was a daring and capable pilot, but also perhaps because she was melded with her machine in a way some other pilots never could be. [Here, I'm thinking of some reading I've done recently on an entirely different topic, but anyway: the science of cybernetics concerns the combining of humans with machines (usually in the context of computers) - but, I'm thinking that perhaps especially with fighter pilots and their aircraft (a single person and a machine, unlike bombers with entire crews), the blending of particular pilot and particular machine might have been along the lines of cybernetics. [And that might be true for some other examples, like, perhaps, Saburo Sakai in his Mitsubishi Zero, or perhaps even American ranking ace Richard Bong in his Lockheed P-37 Lightning. Other pilots noted, for instance, that Bong was no master of deflection shooting, as you'd need to be in a P-51 or earlier types; he "flew right up the enemy's ass" - but he brought them down, and he knew how to do so, rather lethally - but that partly (perhaps?) the blending of the particular pilot with the particular aircraft type, in cybernetic fashion.]
Reading your post I thought of how many hours of flying time these pilots racked up. Experience on top of training builds a lot into muscle memory but also what you are able to do without thinking. In a more mundane context, how many times do you drive home, stopping at lights, working your way through lane changes and don't remember any of the drive. How little mental attention has to go into operating your vehicle and reacting to common stimuli. How many times have you seen another driver about to do something stupid, you see them do the stupid maneuver, but you can tell before they did it what they were about to do. Experience. So you may be able to predict what your enemy is going to do and plan your counter before they do it, gaining you reaction time. And experience also helps with gauging the distance between you and your target and how your machine guns and cannon shells will operate out to that range. Where you aim at 2,000 yards is different from where you aim for 1,000. Or, in the case of Richard Bong, maybe a superiority in sheer nerve.
@@iansneddon2956 blah blah blah Apparently it wasn't hard to get air kills on inexperienced pilots in vastly inferior planes when you have some experience and you're flying a superior plane.The tables quickly turned when they began to fly against American escort fighters. Not to mention that they all probably still got shot down at least once before the war ended...you can see for yourself how many of them died in combat. That was one of the 3 options you know, they either were shot down and died in the ensuing crash (if they were not dead already), or they were captured and sent to a POW camp (where if they were shot down in Russian territory they probably spent at least 10 years in Siberia) or they were injured or killed in a ground crash. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but Barbarossa started June 6th (sorry, June 22) 1941. Hitler killed himself sometime in the first week of April 1945. That's almost 4 years. 350 air kills really isn't all that impressive when you consider that it was maybe 2 kills per week for 4 years. Spread over 300 or so Luftwaffe pilots, and at least 2/3rds of them died in the process...and the rest all ended-up as POWs. Oh and along the way their country got bombed to shit by not 1, not 2 but 3 air forces. In think in the end even the Italians were flying against the Nazis, that would make 4, and the Canadians also, makes 5. Their entire country was overrun. Super highly effective Luftwaffe right there, bud. Not much to be crowing about when you really think about it.
@@iansneddon2956 By the way you might want to put an equal amount of time thinking of how many Allied planes flew missions against the Nazis....what types, what country they flew for, where their missions began, what the targets were, that sort of thing. So you don't end-up making the same mistakes that the Tiger fan-bois make on a regular basis in thinking that if the Nazis had only 50 more Tigers they would have won the war.
"And experience also helps with gauging the distance between you and your target and how your machine guns and cannon shells will operate out to that range. Where you aim at 2,000 yards is different from where you aim for 1,000." This shows how very, very little you know what the fuck you're talking about. 1000 yards was far out of effective gun range for air to air combat, certainly it was in 1940-45 and even now with the latest and greatest in modern gunsight technology it's still a very long-shot, literally. In WW2 that simply didn't happen. Only the absolute best shots with the absolute best gun-sights and shooting platforms would even bother to take shots at such distances, even then probably only in a head-on approach. No responsible fighter-pilot would open up on a target at such a range except as an act of desperation...maybe a fighter with nose-mounted guns even then they would need the latest and best of gun sights to have any chance of hitting their target. At all. On the other hand they could close within 100 yards and have near 1:1 odds that every round would not only hit their target but hit it with maximum KE and do maximum damage requiring no more than a short burst to down the target. This of course was not likely to happen against a formation of bombers so it would happen against isolated bombers or fighters whose pilots that lacked situational awareness...Luftwaffe pilots were great at isolating and attacking stragglers and incompetent enemy pilots often flying woefully-uncompetitive planes.
What a bad ass looking plane ! Who knows the outcome of dogfights if that plane came in earlier during the War ! One problem though after so many miles the turbine engine had to be rebuilt...or replaced. But still it was one heck of a plane !
IF the german high command had over ruled hitler in 39 when he said the 262 wasn't needed as the war wouldn't last long and had the perfected 262 in their best pilots capable hands the 8th air force would never have grown to destroy Germany's industrial might , The 262 would have changed the whole scenario and any bomber force coming over the english channel. Woulda been wiped out before they got near Germany's war factories. My Dad flew waist GUNNER in a B24 and saw a few 262,s towards the wars end and said they were the scariest thing he,d seen in the war. He saw 5 262,s attack a bomber box below his and in one pass 5 B17,s just exploded into nothing. The 4 30mm cannons in the 262,s node were perfect for taking out the heavy bombers.
No German weapon was UNRELIABLE The me 262 lacked nickel and chromium material on it's engine which lowered engine reliability and also forced to use low octane fuel which further slashed engine reliability
I actually sat in the cockpit of a real German ME262 about 15 years ago at the U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. Back then my Dad was a volunteer & once a year they had an employee appreciation dinner & opened up a number of planes to climb into, the ME262 was one of them so I climbed into the cockpit. I am told they no longer do this.
When I worked in the gift shop in the early 80's I got to explore inside the XB-70 and the B-36! Quite a big difference between the two as far as head and leg room.
The German picked the wrong jet to go with they should have picked the He-280 first in 1942 and would have had a jet earlier to slow the US bombers then the Me262 would come later once the Jumo 004 engines were perfected. Germany would've had operational jet fighters with difference characteristics. Would love to see an He-280 vs. P-51
March 31 1945 my Uncle with the entire crew of the Halifax MZ922 where lost in a daylight bombing raid over the Ship yards in Hamburg Germany. The records stated MZ922 was shot down by an ME262. Gordon Justin Rude was a tail gunner and was 23 years old. We will Remember.
And the guy was born in Austrohungarian empire...😏 Just must say that my grand-grand father was the soldier on that state as well! 😏 Still have some things from him as the uniform and photos... was under command of fieldmarshal Svetozar Borojević the Lion from river "Socha"! Rgd from Croatia. 👍😏
I am American and I wish the same. After Watching the documentary: The Greatest Story Never Told, which tells the truth about Hitler and the Germans in WW2, I wish they had won.
The Germans had an even more capable Jet Fighter. The Horten Flying Wing. In a mock Dog Fight with a 262, it ran circles around it!!! The Americans discovered the factory that was starting Mass Production and we never had to encounter it in the skies.
I've watched other videos about this the 262 had every advantage except for turn radius in which mustang pilots used to their advantage another advantage they had was flight time compared to the 262 the mustang could fly forever the mustang pilots would just wait around a German airfield for the 262's that come in because they were out of gas and were sitting ducks
Not true, the Mustang was very difficult to turn at the speeds that the Messerschmitt Me-262 was operating at... the 262 had a massive speed advantage and had control of when it would engage or simple deny the enemy a chance to engage. It was extremely difficult to dogfight with a 262 as it has a 125 to 200 mph speed advantage.
@@drstrangelove4998 Excellent point, the Me-262 was maneuverable at speeds the Mustang simply could not reach... and jets with swept wings bleed-off less energy in a turn, a significant advantage in aerial combat.
The ME262 had the most powerful 30mm cannons in its nose & the first angled wings which added more speed to the ME262 Don’t forget about the ME-163 komet rocket powered fighter of WW2
Hello TJ. I do appreciate your computer graphics. Especially your leading of the target. Very well done. It is a dangerous truth that had the ME-262 been introduced a year earlier it could have changed the course of WWII. But as you know the delay in its introduction was not because of Hitler and his obsession of it becoming a fighter bomber. It was the engine that slated its doom. It had a problem with flameing out with abrupt throttle changes. And pilots get excited during combat. But also the lack of resources to machine titanium turbine blades in a vacuum and advanced ceramic ball bearings. Capt. Tamre' Colby
There are a couple of issues with your post: The story with Hitler's obsession of the 262 carrying bombs leading to a delay is largely unfounded. The programme stumbled on unrelated issues as it was and the type would have not seen combat at that point in its development in any other air force, as it was far from being combat ready. Ceramic ball bearings did not exist for a long time after WWII and were not necessary as also titanium was not necessary to produce working turbine blades. Throttle management was an issue with all early jets, not just the Jumos and BMWs, although they were more susceptible to it than the allied radial flow designs. Hitler's obsession was more pronounced with larger bombers having to be able to perform diving attacks, which the "greatest private of all times" personally believed to be more effective against defended precision targets. This hampered, but didn't impede, the development of heavier bombers. Germany losing WWII is a very predictable outcome, given the involvement of the Soviet Union and the U.S. Technologies and skill could have only the casualty ratios and delay the outcome, not change the course of the war.
@@daszieher Excellent comment, you are very knowledgeable. Indeed, jet engines used regular steel ball and roller bearings. Titanium is never used in turbine blade manufacturer and not used for compressors blades during WW2 either. Exactly corect, all jet engines including Allied jets had manual fuel controls that required careful adjustment of the throttle. Even modern FADEC controlled engines have sluggish throttle response compared to a supercharged piston engine.
@@daszieher But of course Der Zieher yet modern aeronautical engineers steadfast refuse to accept that even horse and buggies during the nineteenth century could not have been fitted with ceramic bearings and titanium spokes. So obviously it is the failure of the physicists to not develop time travel with which we could have a achieved our goal. That is not our problem. So as we in Aerospace did not cause the problem we have reserved the right to rewrite history until such time when the physicists get off their lazy butts and correct their error and develop time travel. At which time we intend to return to the nineteenth century, retrofit their horse and buggies (not the horses of course, the would be dumb) with ceramic bearings and titanium spokes and therefore correct the grievous error caused by those pesky and lazy physicists so long. And eventually working up to the ME-262 which should have had ceramic bearings and titanium compressor blades and would have but for lazy physicists. I am sorry I did not explain myself more clearly so I am setting history straight as we speak. If you will excuse me I am late to an appointment to change out the wheels on a horse and buggy. Not the horse of course. I am putting tennis shoes on him. I will be back today at exactly the same time I left if you would like to discuss this matter further them we could save some time by meeting yesterday. Please let me know earlier as I have made reservations for a trip on a brand new ship. The Titanic. Good Day
But there another German pilot reported to have 24 kills but died few years later after WW2 had ended in train accident. To some he hold the record as highest jet ace pilot.
The 262's official nickname was "Schwelbe" or, "Swallow" for the bird, but I would have called id "Haifisch" or, "Shark". That narrow nose, widening body, and tapering tail, from above, look like a shark's body. And equally dangerous.
I was surprised recently to learn the Brits also had a jet fighter in WW2, the Gloster Meteor. It was not used to counteract the ME262, what a great story that would have been. This cautious usage probably had many reasons, but I suspect the main one was that they were 'not really' in production at the time and any losses could not be replaced. It saw "limited action" altogether which included trying to shoot down V-1 buzzbomb weapons.
Dozens upon dozens of "aces" died in mishaps and accidents trying to fly that thing. Erich Hartmann was asked to join the jet squadrons by Galland. He took a long look at it and said thanks but no thanks, he knew better.
BS!There weren't dozens upon dozens aces left;nor were more than about 40 262's at a time in service! The one that really killed more of their own,than enemies was the Me 163!
@@Shaker626 To be Clear...Lockheed did bribe a lot of Western Nato Governments for taking the F104, not directly Hartmann. He was against the F104, that´s why he was "forced out " of the West German Luftwaffe. He knew it was a wrong Choice, he mentioned it, he said it loud....not very quietly! That got him "fired"....and all because of that Asshole Franz Josef Strauß, or now known as Mister " I take all Money!".
Just FYI, and for everyone watching, 'Ace' is a strictly British/Commonwealth and American term- the Germans never used it, the Soviets never used it, and the Japanese never used it. It's a completely arbitrary number that means nothing in particular- it was from early WWI, when shooting down 5 enemy planes was difficult. The Germans simply referred to a pilots with many victories as 'Expert'. It was also US and British/Commonwealth forces who called a destroyed enemy plane a 'kill'- the Germans simply called it a 'Luftsieg' or 'aerial victory'. So it's really rather inappropriate, historically speaking, to use 'ace' and 'kill' in a video about a Luftwaffe Expert. Better to use the proper terminology and take the opportunity to educate people on the different terms belligerents used.
The Me262 had its engines slung under the wings like those of a Boeing737. This left the leading edge of each wing aerodynamically "clean" which increased its lifting ability. The Germans were able to do this because the aircraft was fitted with axial-flow engines which had a smaller diameter than the centrifugal-flow engines used on the British Meteor. The bulbous engines of the Meteor meant that the top half of the engine was above the wing and the bottom half was below it. This produced turbulence which reduced the lifting ability of the wing. The disadvantage of the axial-flow engines---which really needed a higher level of technology than was available at the time---only had a life of about 25 hours whereas the centrifugal-flow ones lasted much longer.
The Jumo 004b Orkan engines met or exceeded the RLM's 100 hours PFTR required for adoption into Luftwaffe service. This is the exact same 100 hours PFTR required by the RAF and the USAAF during WW2. Operation Lusty confirmed that the TBOs averaged 60 hours, excellent bt WW2 standards.
@@jukkatakamaa7274 Boeing engineer George Shairer stole the Messerschmitt plans for the P.1107 which became the B-47... the Boeing 707 is based on the B-47.
@@jukkatakamaa7274Absolutely... Many key members of the Messerschmitt team and the _Luftfahrforschungsanstalt_ went to Boeing as part of Operation Paperclip and Operation Lusty. George Schairer was part of the Von Karman Mission that inspected the _Luftfahrforschungsanstalt_ in Braunschweig and secretly shipped the plans for the B-47 back to Boeing in America.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schmued Edgar O. "Ed" Schmued (Schmüd), German-American aircraft designer (1899-1985) was famed for his design of the iconic North American P-51 Mustang and, later, the F-86 Sabre while at North American Aviation. He later worked on other aircraft designs as an aviation consultant.
Me-262 training program had a 5% wash out rate for veteran pilots retraining for this new platform, retraining in a week. Looking at the 18°wing sweep, probably was beneficial for training and or conversion for veteran pilots. Throttle coaxing also was something to be patient with, the jet had to go through a progression to attain full speed. The Me-262 35° wing sweep, (not used) probably would have required more in depth flight training for pilots converting from propeller. It would have been a beast of epic proportions at about 850km/hr in the air war had it been accepted into production. Both the MiG15 and F-86 utilized that same 35° wing sweep with historic results, and against each other as opponents.
The ME 262 proved beyond doubt , that future fighter aircraft would need at a minimum .0.5 calibre guns, and preferably 20mm cannons (or larger ) to compete in any future air war
Caliber is less important than muzzle velocity, rate of fire and shell, weight all equating penetration and destructive power. MG151/20 is not the same as MG/FF or Hispano-Suiza 20mm
For all these that believe the Luftwafe was not efficient: By statistic the US lost 18000 airplanes in combat only (accidents in training and ferry not counted). Even though the Mustang came later in the war, more than 1000 Mustangs were lost in battle. This all on the western front while the Germans fought on multiple fronts.
Just got mine for $219. Lovin' it. Bought as a project guitar, will put Mustaine actives in it & probably tuners & maybe a gold metal pickguard to help with neck dive. Overall a great guitar for that kind of money.
The Allies dIdnt have many jets either... the difference was the Me-262's were highly effective in combat, the Allied jets were too few and not fully developed to have any impact on the air war.
He was the son of a French diplomat and his wife and was born in Brazil, does that make him Brazilian or French? (Did he have citizenship of both countries? And even if he did, he flew under the French flag for the Free French Air Force in England not for Brazil sorry to point out). One interesting aspect of it is that he was taught flying by a German pilot called Karl Benitz who apparently was killed on the eastern front in 1943.
@@antartis73 He is Brazilian but has French citizenship because of his father, and he went to fight for the RAF because at that time Brazil did not have an air force yet formed (pilots were being trained since 1942 and would only be sent in early 1944)
He was French. Born of French parents, moved to France during his teens, lived in France and/or fought for France for the rest of his life. You might as well claim that Jim Howard (AVG and later USAAF fighter pilot) was Chinese because he was born there to missionary parents.
Some sources point to Kurt Welter as the greatest ace of the Me262. And all victories were at night in the Me 262B-1a/U1 variant equipped with the Neptune radar.
Engine failure was a common problem, they only had 30 hours life for each engine before they had to be changed. The Germans didn't have the materials they needed to make a more reliable engine.
30 hour TBOs for a combat interceptor during WW2 was actually excellent... The U.S. Army tested captured Me-262s during Operation Paperclip and Operation Lusty and found the engines averaged TBOs in the 50 to 60 hour range.. Better than many Allied piston engines.
The Jumo 004B engines had a PFTR of 150 hours... The RLM only required 100 hours for adoption in Luftwaffe service. This was the exact same 100 hour PFTR required by the RAF and the USAAF during WW2. TBOs for a R-R Merlin could be as little as 5 hours when WEP was used in combat The F-86 Sabre in Korea could have TBOs of just 15 hours when Military Power was used repeatedly.
Although the IL-2 had big cannons, they were tank busters, not fighters. They stood no chance against the much faster and far better maneuverability of the BF-109
Yes but the IL-2 was well armoured and probably difficult to shoot down without sufficient cannon fire hits. it was also the most produced aircraft of WW2, so there must have been lots of them to shoot at!
@@thracianTV depends upon the Bf-109 that was doing the shooting. They all had cannons and 12.7mm (.50 caliber) machine guns. The cannon was firing through the nose, though the Bf-109k-14 and some other versions could also hang 20mm (.78 caliber) cannons from the wings. Some of the Bf109's had a 30mm (1.18 caliber) cannon in the nose. Pick a plane any plane, two or three 20mm cannon hits puts you down. One 30mm cannon hit and you're done. Remember these Me-BF109's were using armor piercing incendiary rounds that not only punched holes through armor, they also exploded and started fires inside whatever plane they hit. On the Western front their primary targets were bombers, which is why they had the cannons. The US planes for the most part used .50 caliber machine guns because they were typically protecting bombers and the .50 caliber were not only plenty effective against other fighters, it also allowed them to carry a lot of ammo. Cannon rounds are big from about 50% larger for the 20mm and more than double the size for the 30mm than the US standard .50 caliber round. Yes he IL2 had a lot of armor for a plane, in fact about 1,500-lbs of armor protecting crew, engine, radiators, and the fuel tank...but not the wings. Plus plenty of rear gunners were killed because only the flat plate directly in the front of the canopy was "bulletproof" and none of it was cannon-proof. Same with the canopy in the front. They were slow and heavily armed, with tanks and sometimes infantry being their targets. They were often referred to as flying tanks because even though they would fly slow and low, they were virtually impervious to small arms fire.
I've just finished a fantastic book called Fighter Group The 352nd "Blue Nosed Bastards" in world war II. By Jay A Stout. To any fans of second world war aviation. This is a must read. Highly recommended
@@Rhino1277HotRails if you are looking for more good reads on Allied aviation during the second world war. There are four titles that I highly recommend. "The forgotten fifteenth" and "Whirlwind" by Barrett Tillman. "The Crew" by David Price and "Masters of the air" by Donald L Miller.
@@jackmunday7602 I have both "15th" and "whirlwind", both very good. Not familiar with the other titles...will take a squint. Thanks for recco, no insult intended to someone who appears knowledgeable, but I recently re-excavated Jane's Battles With The Luftwaffe; Boiten/Bowman. In my opinion one of the best text/photo hybrids going.....if you don't have it ....get it. Plus re read Horrido (portions) recently. See ya round my friend 🍺
@@Rhino1277HotRails not offended at all mate. I'm always delighted to chat with like minded people with similar interests to me. I'll definitely keep an eye out for those titles. I'm always looking for excellent reads. I also have two more titles that may interest you. "Kamikaze hunters" by Will Iredale. This documents the exploits of the British Pacific fleet. (Being British myself it's one of my favourites) and "Dogfights over Tokyo" by John Wukovits. This tells the truly heart wrenching story of the last four American servicemen killed on the very last day of the war. I hope they bring you as much enjoyment as they have me. 😀
To bad the Lockheed P-80 wasn't operational during WWII we might have had the first Jet to Jet combat then but it didn't happen till the Korean War. The Gloster Meteor was operational but was never used over mainland Europe during the war but was regulated to shooting down buzz bombs over London.
It’s not very clear on how many he got but I would figure franz stigler would be 1 of the top tho only 29 victories he had close to probably 100 and depicts it in a way in his book but only has 29 because he stopped counting in 1944 known as the guy who spared the b17 and was one of the first members in the squadron of experts and so much more
A good P-51 pilot that had good initial situational awareness of the Me-262's presence, should have been easily able to keep the jet's nose off of their plane. And I do mean easily! The 262 was not very agile to say the least. A P-51 should be able to out-rate it in a one circle and get nose on the 262 quite quickly in a two-circle.
@@drstrangelove4998 Are you comparing early jet fighter tactics to those of the f35? the Me 262 was still a gunfighter, just like the late WWII prop aircraft.
The 262 was an amazing machine. Unfortunately for the Germans, they did have time for proper training and development of appropriate tactics. The 262 was not a dogfighter anymore than the F4 Phantom, but if you fought it vertical, it was invincible!
Unmatched? I'd say. Here are the top 10 Luftwaffe aces. No Soviets, Amis, Brits or others ever came close... Theodor Weissenberger - 208 kills Heinrich Ehrler - 208 kills Hermann Graf - 212 kills Heinz Bär - 220 kills Erich Rudorffer - 222 kills Willie Batz - 237 kills Otto Kittel - 267 kills Gunther Rall - 275 kills Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 kills Erich Hartmann - 352 kills
@@17cmmittlererminenwerfer81 a little jealous, normal from the greatest country. Lol. Without us, they would ride their horses until todsy, and don't even come to the moon. They stole so much, cause they are not the smartest.
@@17cmmittlererminenwerfer81 Curiously you do not break down as to how many of the kills were on the Eastern front where it is generally accepted it was a lot easier to rack up high numbers.
Over all Mustangs shot down far more Me-262s then were shot down by them. Me-262s were great in making one fast pass and then running, not staying around and dogfighting. The early jet engines didn't like sudden changes in throttle
@@shirghazaycowboys What people don’t realize is how very close the Germans were of winning the war. If they have had Stalin or Roosevelt as president (cause they all listened to their generals) instead of Hitler the Germans would have won. Which would have been obviously bad.
@John hotz Nothing in comparison to the German aces in planes and I can throw there even Tank commanders 🤪🙃 (Michael Whitman is the best tank commander to ever have lived, German) There’s a pretty awesome documentary about him.
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@John hotz They were good pilots.
@John hotz and 90% of the German pilots those us pilots listed faced were only weeks in training. So, ya
you talk about everyone except the Tuskegee air men. German, Japanese all enemies. why not the black Aces of the sky who the war could not be won without. or maybe i miss that video
It is on my to do list for the very near future! I have actually never seen the 2012 movie "Red Tails", so I have been trying to find time to watch that before I cover them. In addition, I have a Tuskegee Airmen exhibit that I would like to incorporate into that video at my local aviation museum, but I need to figure out how. So it is very near on my to do list, but I wanted to get both of those done first! It is coming though, I promise.
@John hotz They fought for freedom and liberties together with the russian? You are joking ! Half of Europe was enslaved by the tyrants. It would have been good to go east with the Germans and then kill Hitler.
People don't appreciate just how good many Luftwaffe pilots were. Here are the top ten aces of history, followed by some stats of the best combat pilot, as well as best soldier, of the war on any side...
Theodor Weissenberger - 208 kills
Heinrich Ehrler - 208 kills
Hermann Graf - 212 kills
Heinz Bär - 220 kills
Erich Rudorffer - 222 kills
Willie Batz - 237 kills
Otto Kittel - 267 kills
Gunther Rall - 275 kills
Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 kills
Erich Hartmann - 352 kills
Then there's Hans Ulrich Rudel, the most highly-decorated soldier on any side during WW2. His famous motto is "Only he who gives up on himself is lost." Rudel's record was so astounding, Hitler created a new level of Knight's Cross for him. He continued flying and fighting even after losing his lower right leg in 1945.
2,530 combat missions, during which he was shot down 30 times, rescued downed aircrews 6 times, and escaped from the Soviets while barefoot, covering 30 km in the winter. Alone. Unarmed. Soaking wet after swimming an ice-choked river.
His record includes the following...
519+ tanks destroyed
800+ vehicles destroyed
150+ Anti-aircraft positions destroyed
51 air-to-air kills (9 of which were in Stukas against fighters)
Also he sank a battleship, a cruiser, a destroyer, and 70 landing craft.
After the war, Rudel became a mountain climber in the Andes. Yes, despite a prosthetic leg. His autobiography is called "Trotzdem" (Nevertheless). By far the most heroic soldier of the 20th century.
But you'll never hear about him because Hollywood hates him. Why? He never apologized for Nazism.
"But you'll never hear about him because Hollywood hates him. Why? He never apologized for Nazism."
That is not the worst reason to hate someone. History is littered with heroic a***les.
@ 17 cm mittlerer Minenwerfer
Their claims were never validated that is why. This list is nothing more than what a fighter pilot claimed they did.
Many of them had high scores simply because they were never rotated out, there just were not enough pilots. Unlike American pilots that went home after 25 missions these guys flew until dead, captured or disabled. And even then some still flew.
@@kuhniberti one should separate a person's achievement in their field of expertise from their political, social or religious convictions when evaluating their function in that field.
The danger comes, when assessing extraordinary feats leads to glorification of said individuals. Then, invariably, the other aspects of that person's character must be taken into account in order to round off the picture.
In the case of Rudel, he was a Nazi and never stopped being one. This should never be forgotten.
The allies pilots only flew tours.
The German pilots flew the entire 5 year war. Of Course they had more kills.
Also by 1944 it was hard for a allied pilot to even find a German plane to shoot at because they were so outnumbered.
My grandfather brought down 50 Mustangs. I think he was the worst
mechanic the American Air force ever had.
😂😂😂
Snort. This is my kinda gag. "It was 20 against 2. I don't know how we did it but we shot them both down."
"I saw two guys beating up a woman so I stopped to help. She was tougher than she looked but we whipped her.
😂
Great reply! 😂
I was once bit by a rattle snake. After three days of suffering, the snake died.
The ME262 is still a beautiful jet , 80 years later !
The first with swept wings
I live in Parchim. I visit his grave quite often. It is located just a few meters from my family grave. I think only a few people know who was actually buried there. Which surprises me very much. Sometimes there are a few flowers there, I will continue to visit and remember him.
Hi, who are you?
Good video, here is some additional information. Georg-Peter Eder had 12 confirmed in the Me-262, another 12 unconfirmed. Kurt Welter had 30 claims as both a day and night fighter pilot in the Me-262. Walter Nowotny was actually not shot down. His Me-262 was damaged after he scored his third heavy bomber kill, but his right engine was damaged, smoking. As he came in to land, he was spotted by Edward R. "Buddy" Haydon of the 352nd FG who dropped down, skirting the treeline. Trying to avoid the German AA fire he saw Nowotny bank for his landing. Losing sight of him, Haydon lifted above the trees, the caught sight of him again. At that time, Ernest Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG also saw Nowotny and dived in firing, but he was too far away to get any hits. Haydon chopped power so to not overshoot the 262. He pulled within 50 feet of Nowotny, on his 9 o'clock left. Nowotny looked over, and Haydon said that he had a "surprised look on his face, like man I just screwed up." Haydon never fired, because Nowotony's jet stalled after losing all power, and plunged into the ground. Adolf Galland and Eder were a couple of hundred yards away and saw the event. I interviewed Haydon, Galland and Eder about the event. Haydon and Fiebelkorn (KIA in Korea) shared the kill, although not a single fighter round hit him. My book, "The Me-262 Stormbird" has all three accounts, and my latest book, "Above the Reich" has the full Haydon interview. My older book, "The German Aces Speak" has Galland's interview, where he also discussed the event. Franz Schall was officially credited with 14 kills in the jet with another 10 damaged/probables, Heinrich Baer with 16 confirmed kills, Erich Rudoerffer with 12 in the jet, and Hermann Buchner with 12. These pilots all had more claims, but these were the victories that could be confirmed.
Is it true that he his parachute got caught on the tail of his jet when he was trying to bail out. And apparently his engined suffered from a malfunction or some kind of blowout, I’m wondering is this true or not.
Lol hey I just finished that book! Thank you for writing that Mr Heaton, and I love your amazon photo with THE Günther Rall. I didn't realize nowotny was not hit at all, but I did hear some story that he was not wearing his lucky trousers that day. Thanks for the treasure trove of interviews in that book! Horrido!
Sounds to me like he was shot down by a bomber gunner and finally crashed, And the German jet engines were extremely unreliable due to the lack of proper alloys for the job. Engines were only good for a few missions at best.
@@danphariss133 every 25 hours they had to be replaced. It was cheaper to make them with non alloys, and only took 1 hour to change out an engine, or so I read . . .
@@takebetterphotos2927 I read that the alloys they needed for greater operational longevity were simply not available to them - at any price.
Everyone that lived through WW2 has a story, we get to see and hear them one at a time on TJ3 and it never fails to deliver. Thank you for you service.
Thanks for watching!
In high school, I had a social studies teacher who had been navigator on a Lancaster bomber. He described how they had just bombed Hamburg for the 3rd time, and after that they called it Hamburger. So while the crews were gathering around waiting for debriefing he went up to a friend from another bomber crew, tapped him on the shoulder and said, "wasn't that a piece of cake". He said the guy turned around with a face white as a sheet and said, "what do you mean a piece of cake?". He found out after that his friends aircraft was the only surviving bomber from a flight of six that a ME262 made one pass upon. According to my teacher, that ME262 shot down 5 of the 6 Lancaster bombers on that single pass. Now, I'm going to be told that's impossible, never happened, no way 1 fighter could shoot down 5 of 6 Lancaster bombers on a single strafing run, but I swear, that's exactly how I heard it out of my social study teachers mouth.
A} Lancasters flew at night, while the 262 was a day fighter (B the 262 was designed as a bomber destroyer, with a very heavy armament of 4 X 30mm cannon. So perhaps it if got close enough it could do that, or perhaps there was a second plane that wasn't seen, or perhaps some of those planes were already damaged.
@@thracianTV I once saw a documentary on TV about the battle of Berlin. An old German vet was saying 6 tanks came down the road, 3 Shermans and 3 T-34s, so his commander loaded a special shell into their 88 and destroyed all 6 with that one shot. That story also seems difficult to believe, but I've heard so many others about 88s who really knows?
Stories take on a life of their own and this one, as described, is coming secondhand. Lancaster losses could be significant (a 44% death rate with further losses from injuries or capture.
I imagine it was terrifying flying in the dark into flak with night fighters on the prowl. Night fighters would typically be larger aircraft such as Ju88s or Me110s (able to mount radar equipment and heavy weapons for attacking large targets). Air crews would not necessarily see what was attacking them. And if they saw twin engine Messerschmidt illuminated in some searchlight a Me110 becomes a Me262 in later retelling. But Hamburg was bombed in 1943 while the first operational squadron flying Me262s was in 1944.
The most unlikely part of the story is so many bombers in a formation being taken out in one pass by a single aircraft as they would not be flying in some convenient line that would make them vulnerable to such an attack. Not claiming that a formation of bombers could not suffer such a loss of aircraft on a single mission (see death rate, above), just not from a single pass and probably not from a single attacker.
I don't have stats for it but I understand that losses for Lancaster bombers decreased later in the war as systems like gun laying radar for rear turrets helped tail gunners locate and engage night fighters. The massive technological advancements for the Allies are frequently ignored in favor of fascination with Nazi wonder weapons.
Me-262's were used as night fighters toward the end of the war. There was a two-seat radar-equipped version, the Me 262B-1a/U1. But the night fighter pilot who was most successful with the 262 was Kurt Welter, who flew the basic day fighter version, using Wilde Sau tactics.
BS meter's ticking real hard here...
I attended an aircraft mechanic school in Tulsa. They had a cutaway Jumo engine displayed in a classroom. I liked to stand there and spin the turbine while I contemplated.
That really is kind of cool story my friend. I'll say one thing that generation German American English whatever was far superior to mine. But they might not have been that way without a war to fight and I'm happy not to have to fight one to find out. God bless all of who died for our freedom. I even feel sorry for the Germans cuz they just got brainwashed. I'm German supposedly and my great grandfather was SS. Not a thing I'm proud of at all but I'm as far from a Nazi as they come. So was my grandfather. Unlike his father I never met a more kind man in my life. I'm proud to say I was his grandson as far as my great-grandfather I would have killed him myself if I had a time machine
@@BJETNT are you high?!
@@BJETNT Impressive statement. You'd kill a person you never met and likely have no insight of what he actually did or his motivations and on top of that, a family member.
These are the modern times gentlemen: 300000 years and the Homo Sapiens is still stuck in the mud.
@@BJETNT Dear friend why soooo much hatred?? Are you sure that all SS soldiers were. Monsters or cold killers!??
In Normandy the advance of a Canadian brigade came to stoppage cause of an SS Panzergrenadier Company of 14-18years old boys!
At the end the Canadians use some Tank regiments took the place and some survivors as prisoners! After they realised that they have fought against schoolboys they have bitten these boys to the death!
We have plenty of photographs showing the brutality against unurmed prisoners!
Are all Canadians monsters and killers??
Are all the special forces soldiers monsters and criminals!??
Your fellow Americans have dropped a bomb on Nagasaki Japan although the war was already Over and the Japanese Army defeated!. They killed 64.000 unarmed citizens and 160.000 innocent people, years after the war end cause of the radiation!
Those GREAT PILOTS have been a declared as Heroes and have received decorations!
Please be more Human and mercy full!
As an Aviator I have talked with some US pilots...
Some of them have found the mass Bombardements over the civilian Targets in Germany as a very Dispiteful mission.
Good and Evil people are to be found on every Side of the front!
Let as learn and not follow the path of destruction!
Stay healthy and protected!
I went to spartan school of aeronautics love working on planes
Another highly experienced Me 262 pilot (R.I.P. Alfred Ambs) told me, that they were always overwhelming outnumbered by allied fighters. After achieving the last of his 8 aerial victories - of which 7 were confirmed - he was jumped by a P-51 from above and behind and badly hit and wounded. Alfred told me, that he didn't notice the Mustang 'til it was too late. Luckily he was able to bail out and spent the last days of war in hospital. Lt. Alfred Ambs was a member of 11./JG 7 and flew Me 262 "Yellow 5".
If memory serves Ambs was one of the ME262s the "Red Tail's" shot down in their famous engagement they got a unit citation. Played out a bit different then the rather lackluster recent "Red Tails" film portrayed things, but that is Hollywood for you.
Related to his "confirmed victories" though, none of Alfred Ambs kill claims were ever confirmed because the OKL's kill claim system was horribly backlogged and when the war ended the OKL was still processing claims from November 1944 on VE day. Most (if not all) of Ambs claims were in March and April 1945, so none of them were ever processed and verified by the OKL and are thus unconfirmed. This also applies to basically all ME262 pilot claims since the vast majority were made in 1945 and thus never actually vetted. A look at US loss records tends to show lower losses than the ME262 pilots claimed, which makes sense given it was generally found pilots overclaimed by a factor of 2, hence why all the air-forces of different countries put the claims through a vetting system to weed out overclaiming.
@@kellyshistory306 It's true, Alfred's victories were never official confirmed in the last days of WW2, but I remember well that his stories were extraordinarly precise. He could explain every detail of the Me 262 and his missions. He explained exactly what types of enemy planes he hit, where he hit and what happened with this planes after his hits. I have to confess, that no one of us listeners had the idea to write down those stories. Now it's too late and I'm not able to repeat his exactly reminiscences. So it's possible that you are right with the number of his "kills" but we - his friends and relatives - believed him.
@John hotz outgunned but fast as a prop plane. .50cals had a rate of 450 shots per minute. I believe,
The guns they fought against (German cannons) fired 600 to 650 shots per minute whilest the projectiles are almost 2 times bigger .
It was our big numbers of vehicles and people that made them lose.
No one wins against the entire f-ing planet with a nation the size of a European country. Lol.
But because of people not understanding this, you suddenly get stories about superior machines on the Allied side. I am sorry but i think that a P-51only won by its large numbers it came in. While the Nazi's only had a hand full of machines to fight them.
1 vs 1 we would be eating and speaking German stuff, okay?!
@@josefhorndl3469 Ambs has a couple of accounts in book on the ME262, in particular Manfred Boehme recounts some of Ambs claims his book on JG7, so those accounts may be preserved in books.
That said, overclaiming isn't lying, its can be mis-seeing or misinterpreting what occurs in the rush of combat. Most pilots submit claims in good faith because they sincerely believe they destroyed those aircraft. I'm not sure what tales Alfred Ambs shared with you, but Manfred Boehme cites an account by him which goes the following way:
-Ambs shoots a US bomber he dives on, whose bombs (or something) explodes and destroys two other bombers
-Ambs wingman who is also diving flies into the explosion and is also destroyed
-As Ambs pulls away he looks back and sees his other wingman shoot down two bombers with gunfire.
--> 5 Bomber losses
The US post-raid report, plus testimony from other bomber crews in the formation on the Missing air crew reports reports things similarly yet different:
-An ME262 is seen to collide with one bomber, causing it and the ME262 to blow up.
-No bombers are destroyed in the explosion.
-Two other bombers from the formation are shot down by gunfire
---> 3 Bomber losses (the only bomber losses from that formation)
I don't know if that is an account Ambs mentioned to you, but its one Manfred Boehme ascribes to him.
On the other hand several of Ambs other claims fall on days where there are US losses of that type so its not like every claim he made can't be true. But when it comes to ME262 claims, there often are not enough destroyed aircraft to fit the claims.
@@kellyshistory306 Thanks for sharing these informations with me. I can remember, that Alfred told us when he hit one bomber - I believe he said it was a "Fliegende Festung" (Flying Fortress) - the bomber exploded and the explosion forced another B-17 to leave the formation. He said this second bomber went straight down to earth. The stories of his wingmans (Rottenflieger) are new to me. I remember that his wife said in one occasion to me, that they are not so happy with "the book of Manfred Boehme", but I don't know why. So maybe that there are some stories printed, which are not exactly the stories of Alfred. Keep on searching for facts - I know it's not easy. Bye
137 kills before a tragic accident while hitting a bombed out runway hole during landing. Schall was a Me 262 Jet Luftwaffe Ace and it seems a brilliant tactician during air combat. Too bad he didn't survive. A movie should be made on him by Hollywood. Respects from India.
look up Hans-Ulrich Rudel. THIS guy needs a movie, he was real live superhero!
@@Varus78 Can't understand why he tried to land on a unusable runway . Grass Sir
@@Varus78 He was a Nazi, and protected child murderers like Mengele.
@@Varus78 Hi was an excellent stuka pilot!
@@DannyBoy777777 he was a soldier fighting for his country
Me 262 still has a modern design even nowadays.
I love Luftwaffe aces!
..nazi
@@ryarbrough1195 honoring soliers isnt nationalistic
@@ryarbrough1195 Not all Luftwaffe personels were "nazi". If u think that all soldiers were Nazi is like saying that the civilians living there were all nazis too. Its not fair to say that all the personels that joined the war was nazis, some fought for their country and some fought for their leader. Im not an nazi apologist but i hate people thinking the soldiers who particulary fought for the german side were all nazis. There are a bunch of proof that most of them weren't nazis. Only a small percentage of soldiers were related to the holocaust which is mostly the SS. Most of them fought in the front ecspecially the luftwaffe who were fighting in the skies which has not at all relation to the holocaust. Most of them did their duty and did what they were told to.
I love German engineering. They were decades ahead in that field.
Jet fighters, radio controlled bombd( used successfully) rocket planes ( komet 163 ), MG42 Stg44 etc etc.
@@ryarbrough1195 nazi or not they were the best of the best
These old dogfights must be the most brutal and bizarre combat in history.
The total 262 kills from all units was 742 aircraft of which 182 were p51 mustangs. That is the official total.
Better that they shot down fighters with one pilot than bombers with 8-to-10 crew members.
The allied forces were the best they destroyed every thing they had.
source?
US official record show approx 550 P51b/c/d 's were shot down in air to air combat in Europe. So your saying that ME262's shot down 33% of them? Id have to see official western records to believe that.
@@dougmccarthy961 I have got and also read a large number of books on the air war over europe and the majority of them state that the offical number of p51s lost in combat is 2520. Over half were in air combat. Most were lost in combat with fw190 of all mks.
The history of JG7 has a listing of victories of 262 units and the total number of P51 lost adds up to 184.
Watched a show that had a gentleman from England. Built a full scale replica, but with modern engines. Looked like a joy to fly.
There are 2 rebuilt ME 262s using General Electric engines flying out of Washington state they are on Utube so check them out
ua-cam.com/video/o8HblYdUUcg/v-deo.html
The maneuverability of the Me 262 with modern replica engine’s is superior to most of todays fighter’s. I got that from a USAF pilot who worked on the rebuild if 2 of them.
Thanks for watching everyone, hope you enjoyed!
Interesting documentary, thanks, but I was amused to here he was born in Austria Hungary, that certainly was an achievement.🤣
Hear*
Well put together
I enjoyed this video.
With the 262 being such a new platform, it would have been of interest in knowing what tactics the german pilots learned on their way to becoming an ace.
I expect the post war archives in the US have very thorough debriefings of Greman jet pilots.
Speed, and no turning. The main one they taught was attack from above and behind, diving down and continuing away. Not much more than that. The 262 couldn't dogfight very well at all- so it's incorrect to talk about that- and it's only real advantage was heavy firepower and speed. Get fast, hit hard, get away.
The only thing that bothers me, is the fact that the german wikipedia doesn't contain an article about franz schall, he isn't even mentioned in the list of german flying aces from WWII. But O.K. he seems to have existed. Because I found him in the List of Knights-Cross recipents. And there he stands with everything you claimed in your you-tube video. So good work, no idea why he was forgotten by the german wikipedia.
because nobody wrote an article about him.
Wikipedia is a user based source material and is only as good as those who post things. It's much like youtube with a lot of errors and exaggerated or opinion based information. Also even the Luftwaffe itself had their favorites. Adolf Galland was a prime example, he was a German Propaganda golden boy but in reality not really much of a hero.
........the winners write the history,.....so this being the case, naturally it's full of lies & twisted truth about the losers - some twisted truth is all that's left in all of history......
@@ericrumpel3105 well look at the case of the Horten Brothers and the Ho 229.. it never reached prototype stage as it was a project to test the flying wing only. Three very different airframe were made with the V1 being a glider designed by the Hortons and V2 a jet powered experimental designed with the Hortons and outside help. The V3 was 100% designed by the Gotha team with little to no input from the Hortons. David M. Wrote a book on the 228 in which he interviewed the Horton brothers. Now one of the brother had been trying very hard to become part of the German engineers and designers who went to the US and worked with aviation companies there but the truth is he lacked basic understanding of aircraft design. See they were bicycle designers who branched out into building gliders only. The author never fact checked and too all the claims as fact creating a mythical life for the 229 that isn't real. So while the Victor's do write much of the books other books are indeed written from the loosing perspective some factual while others are complete fabrications. Other false claims made post war were that a German bomber reached New York and that the me 262 could reach 550 mph in combat trim.
@@jimdavison4077 .....lol....sounds like you get your history written from the winner's school books....lol
You never used the word "kill" talking to German Aces, they used the word "victory". I talked to several including Dolfo Galland and was friends with Max Steinhoff for years. Both flew 262s
This is correct, they were never called it kills but arial victories. You can read it in the books of Adolf Galland Günther Rall and the like.
Could be he was the one who shut down the killer who tried to kill my grandma on her way to the hospital where she worked as a nurse. She praid the german may win and so it came. Really a shame that the US and others were shooting at women and even children playing in a sandbox.
@@andreassiemund4101 You‘re trying to paint Allied pilots as monsters in general. That‘s certainly not true. Be specific and supply facts instead of writing general accusations. When did this happen? Where exactly? What type of fighter plane was it? Was it day or night?
@@katarn999 The Allies were monsters.
The British, Americans, and especially the Soviets were the true monsters.
And we are still ruled by these monsters.
@@MrSolus-ls6us Ah.... I see... a friend of conspiracy theories I presume?
Certainly, the Allies were not pure as freshly fallen snow - that would be an incorrect statement indeed. But so is that they were all monsters as you say. Never generalize, never deal in absolutes. A pretty simple - and might I add biased - view of history that you have there.
Would like to have learned something about his tactics. The Me-262 made a huge circle when turning at speeds near 600mph. So they were not turn fighters by any stretch. They were energy fighters being able to swoop in kill or miss and zoom away because nothing else could catch them. If they had to turn much at all they would find themselves below 400mph and vulnerable to these same P51's at bomber altitudes. If they pulled a hard turn they would find themselves in the area of 300mph which left them vulnerable to a lot of planes that could both fly and maneuver much better than the Me-262 at that speed. They could zoom up losing speed all the time and then zoom back down recovering the speed and energy they lost climbing, make their attack and either speed away or zoom back up for another try. Would really liked to have heard what his tactics were instead of the stats.
There isn't a lot of substance for their tactics, partly due to the confused situation but primarily because their claim are largely false
@@MagpieOz Yep. Especially the German claim that they were vastly outnumbered by allied fighters. On the other hand, Chuck Yeager is far more credible and a true ace with, hold your breath, 11 ELEVEN kills. This casts a shadow over lying German aces that claimed having up to 200 two hundred or even 300 three hundred kills.
@@luisgonzagaosollo7970 it certainly does. It is well publicised that Luftwaffe claims were poorly compiled, often attributed the kills of a flight to the ace flight leader and were exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Also add into that the fact that German pilots stayed in combat more or less until death where Allied pilots were cycled through operational tours and it's not surprising they have bigger numbers from which it is difficult if not pointless to make any sort if assessment.
@@MagpieOz Ok. So you've probably done the research and math. Did Erich Hartmann really shoot down 352 planes? Did Hans-Joachim Marseille really down 152 fighters, 16 in one day? And others. Can you give us your sources. I gots to know.
@@MagpieOz I can well believe the German numbers are inflated. On the other hand, I can also believe German pilots sometimes were able to shoot down high numbers of planes fighting against the Soviets.
Does anyone know more about the training level of Soviet pilots and the quality of their planes?
Along with the Saab 35 "Draken" the Me 262 is the most beautiful jet ever made.
F104 & F14
American pilots shot down about 100 ME-262's. Mostly in low altitude lower speed kills where the ME-262 could be out maneuvered by the Mustangs.
@@andrewr62 the effectiveness of the Schwalbe can be discussed but to me it's still one of the most beautiful planes ever designed.
@@84Tysken For me it's the British Avero Vulcan
Probably my great granduncle would have flown the Me262 top, he was a Pilot since day one and also combat experienced, 5 Kills and I think also the flight clasp in silver or nearly silver.
Sadly died defending civilians from USAAF bombing raids in 1944 over
Munich.
I will never forget him.
As an American I respect your Grand Uncle for his service to his family and countrymen, despite the cause. RIP to a valiant warrior.
@@markmarkplace 🤝
The likes of Heinz Bar, Otto Kittel and Wilhelm Schnaufer would have graced the air force post WW2. They were absolute legends.
The Me262 was a breathtaking aircraft. Face to face at Smithsonian in 2012
those nazi murderers are evil men, they murdered good Allied aircrews on behalf of hitler. piss on his evil grave.
I hope his burning death was slow and painful, the rightful fate of all who killed Allied crew.
So were crews of Allied Bombers who needlessly killed people in Dresden and Hamburg, specially when Dresden was far off from the war front. It was a warning to Soviet Russia in the new post war age.
Von "Dave" kommt Scheiße und "Ganguli" erwähnt hier etwas, das aber auf allesn Seiten stattfand. Dazu muß angeführt werden, das es noch heute Piloten und Mannschaften dieser Bomber gibt, welche unter Tränen erzählen was sie damals taten und was sie nicht wollten, sie wußten das "da unten" keine Soldaten waren und zeit ihres Lebens ganz bestimmte Bilder vor den Augen haben/hatten...
Don't forget Nowotny and Steinhoff....and others I'm sure I omitted. But good point
Gorgeous example at McMinnville (aka Evergreen Air Museum) south of Portland Oregon.
There were many great aces in the Luftwaffe. They had no rotations, no time off to recharge, under pressure non stop, and they ended up being the best fighter pilots in history to date.
Amazing pilots with amazing skills and a deep passion for aviation rooted in their hearts. Some of became double or triple ace in a day! The amount of ingenuity, quick thinking and accuracy was second to none. The only time off they would have ,would be when they were wounded,or other extreme situations. Imagine bailing out once, cheating death and having to go back up at some point..Soon..Now, x30..The mental fortitude required to perform at this level is just beyond words. You did a good job , capturing the The pilot, the planes, and the history behind a remarquable pilot. The tally sounds a bit on the high end but I enjoyed the dynamic of the video. Keep them coming ! You're good at this!
"They had no rotations, no time off to recharge, under pressure non stop, and they ended up being the best fighter pilots in history to date."
German discipline, German education system, and love of the Fatherland all must've played a role.
"Luftwaffe pilots eventually learned how to handle the Me 262's higher speed and the Me 262 soon proved a formidable air superiority fighter, with pilots such as Franz Schall managing to shoot down seventeen enemy fighters in the Me 262, ten of them American P-51 Mustangs."
not really when you look at the big picture over NW Europe. During Mar, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount a large full scale attack on Allied bomber formations. On 18 Mar 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. Although a four-to-one ratio was exactly what the Luftwaffe would have needed to make an impact on the war, the absolute scale of their success was minor, as it represented only one per cent of the attacking force. Keep in mind that In 1943 and early 1944, the USAAF had been able to keep up offensive operations despite loss ratios of 5% and more.
Problem was,that the MK108 cannon with it's slow rate of fire and low muzzle velocity was a maior draw back for this speed,on the other hand,you needed but one 30mm hit to obliterate a fighter.yet I doubt Schall's claims!
@@pebo8306 :So do I. I'm tired of some implying that the US Pilots "Exaggerated" their claims, and yet soo many can't seem to verify others claims! I understand "Gun Camera" and "eye witness" to verify, if your in a dogfight, your wingman is up to HIS neck with fighters, how will an "Eye Witness" be found, the enemy you just shot down? I believe if it's NOT at least on camera, it's NOT verified!
@@pebo8306 ME262 claims are in excess of US losses for most days, you're right to doubt them. Important to note the Luftwaffe never confirmed any pilots claims past November 1944 due to a huge backlog of kill claims to process when the war ended, so almost every ME262 pilots claim is unverified in the eyes of the Luftwaffe.
A few of days in March 1945 ME262 pilots officially submitted kills on US bombers but no US bombing forces encountered jets or recorded losses. Problem is FLAK was a huge killer of US bombers in 1945 since so many guns were concentrated in a much reduced Germany, so there has been a tendency to not realize many US losses on days the ME262s attacked US bombers were aircraft shot down by flak. Only if you read through the individual missing air crew reports (MACRs) written for each lost bomber can you identify losses to causes. From my own look through the the records you see anywhere from 200 to 300% over claiming by ME262 pilots.
Actual exchange rate for JG7 at least was about 1:1, which was good given the circumstances since the ME109s or FW190s in 1945 were losing 3-5 aircraft for every 8th Air Force aircraft they shot down, but its certainly not the 4:1 often ascribed to them.
@@kellyshistory306 I agree.What makes me doubt Schall's claims is,that fighters were not on a 262's bucket list!You would have been a fool to seek dogfight with a piston fighter.You could zoom-and boom,but that's about it.On the other hand;4 hits with the 30mm and a 4 engine bomber with 10 men went down!
Schall shot down a Lancaster from my dad's squadron (61) on the 9th of April 1945 but escorting P51's from Polish squadrons claimed 4 ME262's.
Were the Lancasters flying in daylight? I've read they sometimes were that late in the war.
@@joro5748 you are right.
@@drstrangelove4998 Such was the allied dominance of Germany skies.
@@joro5748 Yes it was a daylight op.
Though my dad never mentioned it, it was the 2nd daylight op they'd done alongside 617 squadron who were carrying the 10 ton earthquake bomb
A good portion of RAF bomber Commands raids in 1944/45 were daylight raids, something like 18000 daylight sorties vs 44000 night sorties in 1945 for example. Generally Bomber Command preferred night raids though as German flak was less lethal at night and the lower numbers of aircraft sidelined with flak damage kept operational readiness high. Also the moving forward of RAF blind bombing aids like GEE, OBOE and Gee-H to the front lines after the breakout from Normandy negated the need to bomb in daylight since the practical accuracy of those blind bomb systems was generally on par with daylight visual bombing.
It’s amazing what Schall achieved in only the 2nd half of the war and also sad that he was killed just a matter of weeks before VE-Day.
If only he could have lived a few more days he could have carried on murdering allied airmen
@Andrew Pease
He was protecting his Country ,so no need to be that sarcastic .
@@samkangal8428 Facts
@@samkangal8428
G'day,
As the Australian Imperial Forces (both 1st & 2nd) put it,
"If you can't take a
Joke,
Then you never
Should've
Volunteered...;
Digger !"
It's all a
Game of
Blood...,
In the
End...
But
Never ye
F'rget...,
"Kill 'em
Dead'll
Win a
Medal ;
Every
Bloody
Time...!
Gott
Mit
Uns !
Theory,
Y'see...
"Waaauuughhh !"
is the vocalisation uttered by ALL Primate Species, when they are sufficiently Hungry, Angry, or Frightened as to be prepared to kill a member of their own Species - in the hopes of making themselves feel better.
Any time "A State of Waaauuugh(!)" is considered to have been "legitimately and lawfully declared" then otherwise pleasant individuals happily enlist to be paid to train to kill Strangers on the "Orders" of a Politician for whom they may not choose to vote - all because their "National Honour" requires them to fight to the death in a Ditch defending a Crossroad in the middle of nowhere that anybody in their Family has ever heard of...
Waaaauugh(!)time, y'see, it's great for flagging EcoGnomies..., Politically ; all shortages and inefficiencies are easy to blame on the exigencies of Waaauugh(!), or the actions of the Designated Enemy (Any Me, y'see ?).
Twenty to forty years after they stop shooting at each other, surviving veterans from both sides are meeting up for joint Reunions, back on the Battlefields.
And they all agree that none of them ever had any valid personal reason to have been trying to kill each other, other than the political Bullshit which they were raised to revere..., patriotically and wihhout question.
But,
ALL
Waaauugh(!)
Is
ALWAYS
ALL
Bullshit
In
Hindsight,
30 years
Later....
I suggest that on the overwhelming evidence to hand, we immediately cease to practice or indulge in all and any type of Waaauugh(!)fare, offensive or defensive, pre-emptive, punitive or aquisitive...; rather than go ahead with pretending that the State of Waaauugh(!) makes any kind of sense - in the long run.
Just(ifiably ?) sayin'.
I once spent 3 years nursing 2,000 Veterans of every Military Adventure in which Oz participated between 1914 & 1984, for an average of 10 days per Vet...; when I trained at Repatriation General Hospital, Concord, Sydney, Oz.
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
@@andrewpease3688 Unecessary toxic use of words!!.
There were 1400 ME 262 produced. Enough to make an impact. The main problem was there was almost no fuel to fly them.
@Derrick Bridges that one was also a big problem.
And not enough Pilots.
The problem was there was only ever a few operational ready at any one time tho.
Fuel was not so much of a problem (they could burn kerosene, literally) but the fact that every single airfield that could house 'jets' would receive multiple visits from a few hundred 4 engine bombers pounding your airfield into a moonscape.
But the real 'problem' that an Me 262 had was the engines==Germany didn't have the materials to make metal with high heat resistance and tensile strength, so a jet engine had a rather short life, as well as a tendency to 'flame out' or throw a turbine blade at the worst possible moment.
@@nickmitsialis very good comment. Have you read ‘wings of the luftwaffe’ by Eric Brown? He was a British naval flier and test pilot who flew most German aircraft during and after ww2 , he was very complimentary about the 262 and also the Arado 234b.
No fighter aircraft had a chance vs the 262.
They had the Mustang for lunch.
Best fighter of the war by far.
One of my patients happened to be a testpilot who had also flown the ME262. He said it was a very tricky aircraft that claimed many pilot's lives.
American test pilots who flew the the Me-262 said it was an excellent aircraft with superior performance and excellent asymmetric flight characteristics compared to the British Gloster _"Meatbox"_
The Meatbox suffered over 1,000 crashes killing 450 RAF pilots alone... its the worst jet fighter in history.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Truth be told but the victor has a way of rewriting history.
@@flycatchful Indeed, that applies especially to this topic, Allied sources have gone to great lengths to downplay and dismiss the overwhelming superiority of German jet aircraft technology during WW2.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 The Germans had the technology but not the material to build a reliable jet engine. The turbine blades in particular. This was all brought about because their supply chains were being decimated by allied bombings. If the Germans had introduced this jet in 1940 they may have won the war.
@@flycatchful You really don't know anything about jet engine development during WW2 do you?
Germany developed the first high temperature creep resistant nickel alloys in 1935, Krupp P-194 Tinidur-60 alloy out performed Rex-78 and Nimonic 70.
I'd love to see a video about the most successful 4-engine bomber-killers Anton Hackl or Georg-Peter Eder, seems very interesting to me!
Hackl, I have to say was successful EVERYWHERE. He was like Heinz Baer except he stayed in Prop Jobs the whole war. He even had command of II/JG26 in Late 44/Early 45 and successfully flew the FW19 D9. But he had a hell of a run when he commanded III/JG11 (or even ALL of JG11) against the 8th AAF at the deadliest time of the war.
And anyway, I have always wanted clarification as to the story whether he had a 109 AND a 190 at his disposal, depending on whether his job was 'disrupt escorts' or hunt 4 engine bombers.
@Saftsack German pilots overclaimed US bomber losses by a factor of 2 or more. Their 'success' is based on their own claims.
@@DannyBoy777777 That was not uncommon, especially if 2 or more gruppen were attacking the bomber stream; multiple pilots would often claim the same aircraft, though I think in some cases it's the loose interpretation of the 'herraschuss'(culling or shooting out) to force a bomber from formation, and the final destruction for the awarding of points for decorations.
@@DannyBoy777777 Partly. As did fighter pilots of all nations since aerial kills are hard to pin down. But even so its impressive how they managed to down so many of these huge beasts.
@@DannyBoy777777 American Bombers gunners overclaimed Luftwaffe fighter losses by a factor of 3, sometimes 10.
One of the early raids the B-17 gunners claimed 49 German fighters shot down. Post war examination of German records showed a loss of 7 fighters.
B-17s were credited with shooting down 10,000 Gernan aircraft. Post war investigation found that way too high. A better figure is 3,000.
Their 'success' is based on their own claims.
Hmmm, I always thought the record for jet air of WW2 went to Heinz Bar of JG7 w 16 kills in the 262 and 220 in total. Schall’s 18 is new information; maybe some were unconfirmed? Also Welter “claimed” many Mosquitoes and other night victories that were unconfirmed (20+), but he has been largely discredited! Great video! 👍
Yes there is a lot of varying info out there so I encourage people to do their own research!
Almost all ME262 claims are unconfirmed, the Luftwaffe's confirmation system broke down by November 1944 and nothing claimed after that month was ever properly vetted by the OKL. Vast majority of ME262 sorties occurred from February to April 1945, so almost every claim by a ME262 pilot was never properly vetted like the claims made from Sept 1939 to Nov 1944 were. Doesn't help that it seems the ME262's never had guncamera's fitted so even this basic tool for checking pilot claims was unavailable.
Me262 kill numbers are unfortunately rather questionable and usually are in excess of Allied losses for these battles. This is even worse because Flak was a major killer of Allied bomber and fighters (due to low level strafing when RTB), so once you subtract the flak losses and mechanical losses there is often not many kills left over to attribute to the Jets, usually far less than was claimed.
The resources to properly cross reference American losses against ME262 pilots claims have only really become easily accessible the last few years as more and more records are digitized. Unfortunately many historians who didn't have access to these sources trusted the recollections of ME262 veterans a bit more than they should, which has inflated the achievements of the ME262. Its telling if you read books on the ME262 from the 1960's, then 1980's, then today, the trend has been to revise down the kills attributed to ME262s.
@John hotz I got a book from my Dad they he bought around 1967 from "Aero Series" on the ME262 that I read through. One thing most people don't realize is there has been a constant trimming down by historians of ME262 kill claims since the post-war period. The "Aero Series" book mentions an attack on April 7th 1945 that shot down "twenty five B-17s." Manfred Boehme in his book on JG7 written in the 1980's, based on his research, only could support the shooting down of 3 US bombers and 3 US fighters. Robert Forsyth in his recent book on JG7 written a few years ago suggests less.
I don't meant to disrespect TJ3, but unfortunately the books written about the ME262 are a mess in terms of determining how many aircarft were actually shot down by ME262s, and no historians have actually done a proper examination of the US records to corroborate things. I myself went through all the Missing Air Crew Reports for US aircraft lost on the days in March and April 1945, and the evidence suggests historians have largely "bought" heavily inflated claims made by ME262 pilots that are at times significantly higher then actual US losses. Actually there are a few days when JG7 officially submitted claims against US bombers in which no US bombers were lost and no attacks on bombers were reported.
ME262 kill claims are *not* reliable and should be handled with caution.
@@kellyshistory306 Nevertheless, Chuck Yeager stands out in American folklore as an accomplished Ace. 5 kills in one day, even though 2 of his pretended kills were planes that collided in front of him without being shot at. And NOBODY questions this. He has glory and a movie or two to his credit. While German claims are debased as time goes on. The way you're going someday it will eventually turn out that Erich Hartman did not shoot down 352 planes, the lying kraut, but rather only a measly 52. And even so, more than any American "ace".
Those who dispute German claims claims are deluding themselves. Luftwaffe victories were carefully audited, probables and shared claims didn’t count and the evidence was plain to see in the recorded sector on the ground, where they were visited, carefully recorded and inspected by the local police authorities and reported to intelligence and airbases who also visited the wreck for careful inspection and validation. Allied claims over Germany were not verifiable , for obvious reasons. The Germans of course are quite well known for their burocracy … 🤣
Gen ChuckYeager said that mustangs didn't have the speed of the 262s,but he always would follow them back to their bases where they would glide in for a landing and then blow them out if the sky.Once allied pilots found out about their glide tactics,they were easy prey!Thank you for this great video.
So fighters assigned to escort duty would be free to just leave the bomber and go attack some Luftwaffe base? Not very likely. Alot of things claimed to be said today just don't make sense when you put them against standing operational procedures. The allies assigned squadrons to patrol any know Luftwaffe base or section of roadway they operated from shooting down any Luftwaffe air craft taking off or trying to land. This was from the time they moved to mainland Europe. So why would a escort fighter be going to attack landing fighters?
ME 262 did not glide back to base, it was the Komet163 Rocket plane.
Sorry Jim, yes they did. After the bomber had dropped their loads and on the way home, Mustangs were encouraged to go free ranging hunting.
Special 190 dora 9s squadrons were created to scort landing me 262s hey be happy You won in Vietnam,oh wait You didnt,😐
So were the farmers and civilians
The Me 262 looked very much like a flying shark - a white shark at that !
This channel is great, and the animations are fantastic !!
The 8th Air Force recognized they had a problem in February of 1945 when they lost 45 bombers and 15 fighters to Me 262s. But it was the results of April 7, 1945 when it was noted that the Me 262 had changed tactics and went after the fighter escorts shooting down 28 Mustangs as well as 7 bombers. The 8th decided to take action and on 4/10/1945 they sent 1200 bombers out to blow up the Me 262 bases ending the problem.
Lucky for a free Europe.
That was probably the day 8th Air Force decided to bomb a military target instead of bombing German cities, frying hundreds of thousands of civilian women, children, and elderly alive to lower their morale and force them to surrender, unconditionally. Just as the Americans and British had been doing almost daily for the 3 past years. And until this day have never been accountable. "Liberating" Europe for the Soviets to come in and enslave for the next 40 years.
@@luisgonzagaosollo7970 The 8th Air Force usually bombed factories and rail yards, civilian casualties were (widely accepted) collateral damage.
It were the Brits under their war hero "Bomber" Harris, who deliberately targeted civilians indiscriminately and in their sleep.
The U.S. murdered civilians in Japan by dropping nuclear bombs.
However, the Nazis murdered their neighbours and their own people, just because their religious background or political convictions did not fit the overarching Nazi view of the world.
And the Soviets murdered mostly their own, by despicably wasteful field tactics and by sending dissidents to Siberia.
...because Stalin.
In those years, only the weak were clean.
@@daszieher Then you haven't read about the firebombing of Dresden. Hundreds of thousands of German civilians burned alive in an "open" city. That is, a city which claims not to be heavily guarded. The city was swarmed by hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the advance of the Red Army of Rapists from the east. This medieval city was compared to Rome or Paris in its beauty. But on the 13th and 14th of February 1945, months before German defeat, it was targeted for oblivion by the Americans and British. There are many documentaries about this genocide in UA-cam. And that was not the only civilian target firebombed by the Americans during WWII. Or afterwards. To this day. Self-righteous Americans and their exceptionalism.
@@luisgonzagaosollo7970 I didn't need to read about Dresden. My grandmother's sister was there and told me all about it. After being transferred to the reserves, I was assigned to a unit close to Dresden, so I got to see the city a couple of times. You can still see the traces of that night.
We also know that the U.S. committed their fair share of genocide in Japan by dropping nuclear bombs on unarmed civilians, not so in Dresden.
The bombs on Dresden were dropped by the British.
Perhaps personal talley's were unconfirmed. I was surprised that Schall was the highest scoring 262 ace. I thought that title went to Heinz Bar (Red 13) I will brush up on my research. Thanks for the amazing video TJ3! Keep up the great work
German kill confirmation was available for inspection on the ground in the sector mentioned, allied victories were not.
tallies
@@drstrangelove4998 their confirmation system was very strict
@@drstrangelove4998 And the Luftwaffe still managed to overclaim kills by a factor of at least 2.
@@LeopardIL2 No it wasn't. Read more. Caldwell and Muller's Luftwaffe over Germany Defence of the Reich. This so called strict system went out the window. Particularly if a 'successful' pilot made the claim.
Just want to mention: nearly every me262 was shot down during landing and take off. In the air it was nearly impossible shoot down this plane.
Correct, Jan. Facts in evidence ... ^v^
It is a myth that P51's could only catch ME 262's during landing or take off, as 70+% of ME 262 kills by P51's were in high altitude, high speed combat during Me 262 attacks on bomber formations. One of the worst days for ME 262's was March 24, 1945 when eight 262's were shot down during an attack on a bomber formation flying at 25,000 ft, by P51B/C/D's of the 332'nd and 31st Fighter Groups, without a loss of any bombers or P51's. The 332nd FG (Tuskegee Airman) shot down 3, while the 31st FG shot down 5 more.
For the genuine story of how devastatingly effective the P51B/C/D's were against ME 262's I suggest reading:
[ ME 262 Vs P51 1944-45, Robert Forsythe, 2019] .
P51B/C/D's killed ME 262's at remarkable rates. From NOV 1944 to MAY 8, 1945, P51B/C/D's shot down more than 140 ME 262's.
The comments make it painfully obvious that many WW2 "Amateur Historians" are not aware of the incredible kill record of P51B/C/D's against ME 262's. Initial contact with ME 262's caused 8th Air Force command to consider rushing the in-development Lockheed P-80 to Europe. But when P-51 pilots very quickly figured out how to effectively engage the ME 262, the the P-80 idea was put on the back burner.
@@63DW89A Dude, with up to 900 escort fighters, you would even shoot down modern jets.
@@0Turbox The "900" escort fighters weren't concentrating on the German jets. The escorts were defending the bombers, destroying the Luftwaffe and destroying as much ground transportation and infrastructure as possible. The P51 pilots were ordered by 8th Air Force command to NOT drop the fuel tanks and go after jets, unless the jets were actually attacking bombers. The first reports of the ME 262 caused major worry at 8th AF Bomber Command. But as the Spitfires, Typhoon / Tempests, P47's and P51's demonstrated great ability in killing the jets, the ME 262 slid into the category of "nuisance" rather than "threat". Roughly 80% of all operational ME 262's were shot down by piston-engine fighters.
@@63DW89A The jets were designed and ordered to go after the bombers and doing so, they were attacked by the escorting fighters. Not so hard to comprehend.
from the history, the me262 brought in the new challenge in the airwar. The introduction caused the reconsideration
of tactics. The pilots figured out the ways to push back, The observation of the 262, and shooting in front of their path.
As was said, hiltler's decision and the point counterpoint in this part of the air war too.
The biggest change was a concentration on Luftwaffe landing fields. That was already underway in general, stopping when there were too few fighter planes on any field to be worth attacking. But the Me262 required long concrete runways and was quite vulnerable during takeoff and landing. The RAF developed a tactic called the "Rat Scramble" where Hawker Tempests were kept on immediate alert would take off when Me262s were observed airborne, and fly direct to the Me262 base at Rheine-Hopsten to patrol around until the Me262s returned from their mission and take them out at low altitude during their landing approach. This was discontinued only after the Germans built a forrest of 20mm AA gun batteries on the approaches to Rheine-Hopsten.
This is quite interesting in various ways, but especially for me in the discussion of how the weapon (the plane) and the bearer of the weapon (the pilot) had to be successfully joined. That is, the ME-262 was a potentially terrifying weapon, but - not in everybody's hands; not everybody reached the level of being able to wield that particular weapon particularly successfully. Which in turn makes me reflect upon how the greatest aces of all time (Erich Hartmann; Wehrner Moelders; etc.) continued to rack up amazing victory scores in planes that already were surpassed and outclassed, at least in terms of the planes themselves: but the melding of the particular pilot with the particular plane was never surpassed, and the pilots who knew how to use those particular weapons with devastating effectiveness remain at the top of the all-time list of aces as such. [Granted, had even brilliant pilots been thrown against vast numbers of adequately trained pilots in superior aircraft at the end of the war, their luck ultimately would have run out - sort of like Wehrner Voss in the First World War, when he fought alone against half a dozen Sopwith Camels with decent pilots, though inferior to him in flying and fighting skills, and ultimately got shot down.] There likely are other examples, from various different military cultures, of pilots who fit particular planes particularly well, even if those planes might have been rated below their typical adversaries. Among these: I was interested to find, recently, the story of one of the top Italian aces of World War II, who flew on the Axis side very successfully before later flying on the Allied side very successfully, all in the same Fiat model, which, like most fighter types of the pre-war years, was under-armed compared to the job it would need to do later in actual aerial combat. [The typical armament of maybe, hopefully, at least one 20-mm cannon and 2 .30-caliber machine guns.] In this pilot's capable hands, that lesser-than-adequate armament translated into a very high rate of kills. A similar example that I recently encountered is of "The White Lily of Stalingrad," one of the first successful female fighter pilots for the Soviet Union, who flew an under-armed if agile early Yakolev type and bested better-armed and more experienced German pilots in advanced Bf-109's, partly because she was a daring and capable pilot, but also perhaps because she was melded with her machine in a way some other pilots never could be. [Here, I'm thinking of some reading I've done recently on an entirely different topic, but anyway: the science of cybernetics concerns the combining of humans with machines (usually in the context of computers) - but, I'm thinking that perhaps especially with fighter pilots and their aircraft (a single person and a machine, unlike bombers with entire crews), the blending of particular pilot and particular machine might have been along the lines of cybernetics. [And that might be true for some other examples, like, perhaps, Saburo Sakai in his Mitsubishi Zero, or perhaps even American ranking ace Richard Bong in his Lockheed P-37 Lightning. Other pilots noted, for instance, that Bong was no master of deflection shooting, as you'd need to be in a P-51 or earlier types; he "flew right up the enemy's ass" - but he brought them down, and he knew how to do so, rather lethally - but that partly (perhaps?) the blending of the particular pilot with the particular aircraft type, in cybernetic fashion.]
....easily when the plane was shot down and exploded in a ball of flame without the pilot bailing out
Reading your post I thought of how many hours of flying time these pilots racked up. Experience on top of training builds a lot into muscle memory but also what you are able to do without thinking. In a more mundane context, how many times do you drive home, stopping at lights, working your way through lane changes and don't remember any of the drive. How little mental attention has to go into operating your vehicle and reacting to common stimuli. How many times have you seen another driver about to do something stupid, you see them do the stupid maneuver, but you can tell before they did it what they were about to do. Experience.
So you may be able to predict what your enemy is going to do and plan your counter before they do it, gaining you reaction time.
And experience also helps with gauging the distance between you and your target and how your machine guns and cannon shells will operate out to that range. Where you aim at 2,000 yards is different from where you aim for 1,000.
Or, in the case of Richard Bong, maybe a superiority in sheer nerve.
@@iansneddon2956 blah blah blah
Apparently it wasn't hard to get air kills on inexperienced pilots in vastly inferior planes when you have some experience and you're flying a superior plane.The tables quickly turned when they began to fly against American escort fighters. Not to mention that they all probably still got shot down at least once before the war ended...you can see for yourself how many of them died in combat. That was one of the 3 options you know, they either were shot down and died in the ensuing crash (if they were not dead already), or they were captured and sent to a POW camp (where if they were shot down in Russian territory they probably spent at least 10 years in Siberia) or they were injured or killed in a ground crash.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but Barbarossa started June 6th (sorry, June 22) 1941. Hitler killed himself sometime in the first week of April 1945. That's almost 4 years. 350 air kills really isn't all that impressive when you consider that it was maybe 2 kills per week for 4 years. Spread over 300 or so Luftwaffe pilots, and at least 2/3rds of them died in the process...and the rest all ended-up as POWs. Oh and along the way their country got bombed to shit by not 1, not 2 but 3 air forces. In think in the end even the Italians were flying against the Nazis, that would make 4, and the Canadians also, makes 5. Their entire country was overrun. Super highly effective Luftwaffe right there, bud.
Not much to be crowing about when you really think about it.
@@iansneddon2956 By the way you might want to put an equal amount of time thinking of how many Allied planes flew missions against the Nazis....what types, what country they flew for, where their missions began, what the targets were, that sort of thing. So you don't end-up making the same mistakes that the Tiger fan-bois make on a regular basis in thinking that if the Nazis had only 50 more Tigers they would have won the war.
"And experience also helps with gauging the distance between you and your target and how your machine guns and cannon shells will operate out to that range. Where you aim at 2,000 yards is different from where you aim for 1,000."
This shows how very, very little you know what the fuck you're talking about. 1000 yards was far out of effective gun range for air to air combat, certainly it was in 1940-45 and even now with the latest and greatest in modern gunsight technology it's still a very long-shot, literally. In WW2 that simply didn't happen. Only the absolute best shots with the absolute best gun-sights and shooting platforms would even bother to take shots at such distances, even then probably only in a head-on approach. No responsible fighter-pilot would open up on a target at such a range except as an act of desperation...maybe a fighter with nose-mounted guns even then they would need the latest and best of gun sights to have any chance of hitting their target. At all.
On the other hand they could close within 100 yards and have near 1:1 odds that every round would not only hit their target but hit it with maximum KE and do maximum damage requiring no more than a short burst to down the target. This of course was not likely to happen against a formation of bombers so it would happen against isolated bombers or fighters whose pilots that lacked situational awareness...Luftwaffe pilots were great at isolating and attacking stragglers and incompetent enemy pilots often flying woefully-uncompetitive planes.
What a bad ass looking plane ! Who knows the outcome of dogfights if that plane came in earlier during the War ! One problem though after so many miles the turbine engine had to be rebuilt...or replaced. But still it was one heck of a plane !
IF the german high command had over ruled hitler in 39 when he said the 262 wasn't needed as the war wouldn't last long and had the perfected 262 in their best pilots capable hands the 8th air force would never have grown to destroy Germany's industrial might , The 262 would have changed the whole scenario and any bomber force coming over the english channel. Woulda been wiped out before they got near Germany's war factories. My Dad flew waist GUNNER in a B24 and saw a few 262,s towards the wars end and said they were the scariest thing he,d seen in the war. He saw 5 262,s attack a bomber box below his and in one pass 5 B17,s just exploded into nothing. The 4 30mm cannons in the 262,s node were perfect for taking out the heavy bombers.
No German weapon was UNRELIABLE
The me 262 lacked nickel and chromium material on it's engine which lowered engine reliability and also forced to use low octane fuel which further slashed engine reliability
I actually sat in the cockpit of a real German ME262 about 15 years ago at the U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. Back then my Dad was a volunteer & once a year they had an employee appreciation dinner & opened up a number of planes to climb into, the ME262 was one of them so I climbed into the cockpit. I am told they no longer do this.
That museum is spectacular, if driving on I-75 it is visible East of the Interstate and a crime to pass it by🇺🇸
When I worked in the gift shop in the early 80's I got to explore inside the XB-70 and the B-36! Quite a big difference between the two as far as head and leg room.
In an ironic twist it was the bombers that ended up killing “the mustang killer”
I wonder who would get credit, the bomber that made the craters or the bombardier who aimed the formation
Me-262 a beautiful aircraft.
A competent pilot in a fully serviceable 262 was pretty much untoucheable until he needed to land.
The German picked the wrong jet to go with they should have picked the He-280 first in 1942 and would have had a jet earlier to slow the US bombers then the Me262 would come later once the Jumo 004 engines were perfected. Germany would've had operational jet fighters with difference characteristics. Would love to see an He-280 vs. P-51
The Me-262 was vastly superior to the He-280...
March 31 1945 my Uncle with the entire crew of the Halifax MZ922 where lost in a daylight bombing raid over the Ship yards in Hamburg Germany. The records stated MZ922 was shot down by an ME262. Gordon Justin Rude was a tail gunner and was 23 years old. We will Remember.
As he died in my hometown, I took his name as my online gaming avatar to honor him.
Never heard of this pilot. Danke!
We had need much more of those Me 262 and we had not such devastation and killed civilians. Our pilots were real heros!! 😎👍🇦🇹✌️👆💪😸🌞😎🐺
And the guy was born in Austrohungarian empire...😏 Just must say that my grand-grand father was the soldier on that state as well! 😏 Still have some things from him as the uniform and photos... was under command of fieldmarshal Svetozar Borojević the Lion from river "Socha"! Rgd from Croatia. 👍😏
I am American and I wish the same. After Watching the documentary: The Greatest Story Never Told, which tells the truth about Hitler and the Germans in WW2, I wish they had won.
@@Rogue.Warrior What?
@@jimsmith556 "We have defeated the wrong enemy." - Patton
@@Rogue.Warrior Patton was such a good general and did not follow the dark forces within the US. Possibly the reason for his death.
Excellent video, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for bringing the heroic story of this wonderful human being forth to the world. God bless.
The Germans had an even more capable Jet Fighter. The Horten Flying Wing. In a mock Dog Fight with a 262, it ran circles around it!!! The Americans discovered the factory that was starting Mass Production and we never had to encounter it in the skies.
I've watched other videos about this the 262 had every advantage except for turn radius in which mustang pilots used to their advantage another advantage they had was flight time compared to the 262 the mustang could fly forever the mustang pilots would just wait around a German airfield for the 262's that come in because they were out of gas and were sitting ducks
Not true, the Mustang was very difficult to turn at the speeds that the Messerschmitt Me-262 was operating at... the 262 had a massive speed advantage and had control of when it would engage or simple deny the enemy a chance to engage.
It was extremely difficult to dogfight with a 262 as it has a 125 to 200 mph speed advantage.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 true, and traditional turning dogfights were outdated with jets, after all a Fokker Triplane could out turn a P51.
@@drstrangelove4998 Excellent point, the Me-262 was maneuverable at speeds the Mustang simply could not reach... and jets with swept wings bleed-off less energy in a turn, a significant advantage in aerial combat.
"every advantage"??? wow. I recommend you do some more homework
@@drstrangelove4998 hmmm. Ask a Tomcat driver if they agree. Heck I'm sure an F86 pilot would have something to say as well
The ME262 had the most powerful 30mm cannons in its nose
& the first angled wings which added more speed to the ME262
Don’t forget about the ME-163 komet rocket powered fighter of WW2
Hello TJ. I do appreciate your computer graphics. Especially your leading of the target. Very well done. It is a dangerous truth that had the ME-262 been introduced a year earlier it could have changed the course of WWII. But as you know the delay in its introduction was not because of Hitler and his obsession of it becoming a fighter bomber. It was the engine that slated its doom. It had a problem with flameing out with abrupt throttle changes. And pilots get excited during combat. But also the lack of resources to machine titanium turbine blades in a vacuum and advanced ceramic ball bearings.
Capt. Tamre' Colby
There are a couple of issues with your post:
The story with Hitler's obsession of the 262 carrying bombs leading to a delay is largely unfounded. The programme stumbled on unrelated issues as it was and the type would have not seen combat at that point in its development in any other air force, as it was far from being combat ready.
Ceramic ball bearings did not exist for a long time after WWII and were not necessary as also titanium was not necessary to produce working turbine blades.
Throttle management was an issue with all early jets, not just the Jumos and BMWs, although they were more susceptible to it than the allied radial flow designs.
Hitler's obsession was more pronounced with larger bombers having to be able to perform diving attacks, which the "greatest private of all times" personally believed to be more effective against defended precision targets. This hampered, but didn't impede, the development of heavier bombers.
Germany losing WWII is a very predictable outcome, given the involvement of the Soviet Union and the U.S. Technologies and skill could have only the casualty ratios and delay the outcome, not change the course of the war.
@@daszieher Excellent comment, you are very knowledgeable.
Indeed, jet engines used regular steel ball and roller bearings.
Titanium is never used in turbine blade manufacturer and not used for compressors blades during WW2 either.
Exactly corect, all jet engines including Allied jets had manual fuel controls that required careful adjustment of the throttle.
Even modern FADEC controlled engines have sluggish throttle response compared to a supercharged piston engine.
@@daszieher
But of course Der Zieher yet modern aeronautical engineers steadfast refuse to accept that even horse and buggies during the nineteenth century could not have been fitted with ceramic bearings and titanium spokes. So obviously it is the failure of the physicists to not develop time travel with which we could have a achieved our goal. That is not our problem. So as we in Aerospace did not cause the problem we have reserved the right to rewrite history until such time when the physicists get off their lazy butts and correct their error and develop time travel. At which time we intend to return to the nineteenth century, retrofit their horse and buggies (not the horses of course, the would be dumb) with ceramic bearings and titanium spokes and therefore correct the grievous error caused by those pesky and lazy physicists so long. And eventually working up to the ME-262 which should have had ceramic bearings and titanium compressor blades and would have but for lazy physicists.
I am sorry I did not explain myself more clearly so I am setting history straight as we speak.
If you will excuse me I am late to an appointment to change out the wheels on a horse and buggy. Not the horse of course. I am putting tennis shoes on him. I will be back today at exactly the same time I left if you would like to discuss this matter further them we could save some time by meeting yesterday. Please let me know earlier as I have made reservations for a trip on a brand new ship.
The Titanic.
Good Day
@@Major_Tamre_Colby 😂🤣
You are very funny. Thanks for the entertainment!
Qualität bleibt immer der Maßstab. Quality never goes out of style
But there another German pilot reported to have 24 kills but died few years later after WW2 had ended in train accident. To some he hold the record as highest jet ace pilot.
The 262's official nickname was "Schwelbe" or, "Swallow" for the bird, but I would have called id "Haifisch" or, "Shark". That narrow nose, widening body, and tapering tail, from above, look like a shark's body. And equally dangerous.
So what did you think when you first saw German jets appear in the air?
Chuck Yeager: Yeah well, the first time I saw a jet I shot it down.
Sure it wasn't Chuck Norris ?
@@jukkatakamaa7274 Lol
He did his duty,respect.
I was surprised recently to learn the Brits also had a jet fighter in WW2, the Gloster Meteor. It was not used to counteract the ME262, what a great story that would have been. This cautious usage probably had many reasons, but I suspect the main one was that they were 'not really' in production at the time and any losses could not be replaced. It saw "limited action" altogether which included trying to shoot down V-1 buzzbomb weapons.
Dozens upon dozens of "aces" died in mishaps and accidents trying to fly that thing. Erich Hartmann was asked to join the jet squadrons by Galland. He took a long look at it and said thanks but no thanks, he knew better.
Erich Hartmann would later be given F-104 starfighters from Lockheed bribery, which were also pretty dangerous.
BS!There weren't dozens upon dozens aces left;nor were more than about 40 262's at a time in service! The one that really killed more of their own,than enemies was the Me 163!
@@Shaker626 YEAH and he was put out to pasture and forced to retire. that plane killed hundreds of west german pilots.
@@Shaker626 To be Clear...Lockheed did bribe a lot of Western Nato Governments for taking the F104, not directly Hartmann. He was against the F104, that´s why he was "forced out " of the West German Luftwaffe. He knew it was a wrong Choice, he mentioned it, he said it loud....not very quietly! That got him "fired"....and all because of that Asshole Franz Josef Strauß, or now known as Mister " I take all Money!".
Just FYI, and for everyone watching, 'Ace' is a strictly British/Commonwealth and American term- the Germans never used it, the Soviets never used it, and the Japanese never used it. It's a completely arbitrary number that means nothing in particular- it was from early WWI, when shooting down 5 enemy planes was difficult.
The Germans simply referred to a pilots with many victories as 'Expert'. It was also US and British/Commonwealth forces who called a destroyed enemy plane a 'kill'- the Germans simply called it a 'Luftsieg' or 'aerial victory'.
So it's really rather inappropriate, historically speaking, to use 'ace' and 'kill' in a video about a Luftwaffe Expert. Better to use the proper terminology and take the opportunity to educate people on the different terms belligerents used.
Make a video on the 303 Squadron, bet you've never heard of them...
Of course I have. Very cool story
The Me262 had its engines slung under the wings like those of a Boeing737. This left the leading edge of each wing aerodynamically "clean" which increased its lifting ability. The Germans were able to do this because the aircraft was fitted with axial-flow engines which had a smaller diameter than the centrifugal-flow engines used on the British Meteor. The bulbous engines of the Meteor meant that the top half of the engine was above the wing and the bottom half was below it. This produced turbulence which reduced the lifting ability of the wing.
The disadvantage of the axial-flow engines---which really needed a higher level of technology than was available at the time---only had a life of about 25 hours whereas the centrifugal-flow ones lasted much longer.
Boeing 737 is a copy of a Me-262.
The Jumo 004b Orkan engines met or exceeded the RLM's 100 hours PFTR required for adoption into Luftwaffe service.
This is the exact same 100 hours PFTR required by the RAF and the USAAF during WW2.
Operation Lusty confirmed that the TBOs averaged 60 hours, excellent bt WW2 standards.
@@jukkatakamaa7274 Boeing engineer George Shairer stole the Messerschmitt plans for the P.1107 which became the B-47... the Boeing 707 is based on the B-47.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 ...I have to check that...are you sure ?
@@jukkatakamaa7274Absolutely...
Many key members of the Messerschmitt team and the _Luftfahrforschungsanstalt_ went to Boeing as part of Operation Paperclip and Operation Lusty.
George Schairer was part of the Von Karman Mission that inspected the _Luftfahrforschungsanstalt_ in Braunschweig and secretly shipped the plans for the B-47 back to Boeing in America.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schmued
Edgar O. "Ed" Schmued (Schmüd), German-American aircraft designer (1899-1985) was famed for his design of the iconic North American P-51 Mustang and, later, the F-86 Sabre while at North American Aviation. He later worked on other aircraft designs as an aviation consultant.
Me-262 training program had a 5% wash out rate for veteran pilots retraining for this new platform, retraining in a week.
Looking at the 18°wing sweep, probably was beneficial for training and or conversion for veteran pilots. Throttle coaxing also was something to be patient with, the jet had to go through a progression to attain full speed.
The Me-262 35° wing sweep, (not used) probably would have required more in depth flight training for pilots converting from propeller. It would have been a beast of epic proportions at about 850km/hr in the air war had it been accepted into production.
Both the MiG15 and F-86 utilized that same 35° wing sweep with historic results, and against each other as opponents.
The ME 262 proved beyond doubt , that future fighter aircraft would need at a minimum .0.5 calibre guns, and preferably 20mm cannons (or larger ) to compete in any future air war
Wikipedia would have told you,that the Me 262 had -4-MK 108 30mm cannon,shooting Mine grenades!Dummy!
Caliber is less important than muzzle velocity, rate of fire and shell, weight all equating penetration and destructive power.
MG151/20 is not the same as MG/FF or Hispano-Suiza 20mm
No it didn't. It was known during the Battle of Britain that cannon were required.
All that heroism, ended in a cratered runway...
The Mustang killer landed on German airfield death trap that killed their OWN hero!
Awesome. I know I have said it before but, I LOVE your new channel. Thanks Brother.
For all these that believe the Luftwafe was not efficient: By statistic the US lost 18000 airplanes in combat only (accidents in training and ferry not counted). Even though the Mustang came later in the war, more than 1000 Mustangs were lost in battle.
This all on the western front while the Germans fought on multiple fronts.
Can you please make a video for a croat Ace pilot named Mato Dukovac
RIP great ace
Just watched a couple of videos from you I really enjoy them so I just subscribed to you keep up the great work
Just got mine for $219. Lovin' it. Bought as a project guitar, will put Mustaine actives in it & probably tuners & maybe a gold metal pickguard to help with neck dive. Overall a great guitar for that kind of money.
German aces were mentally prepared... & fearless 😎
Unfortunately they did not have enough of them.
The Allies dIdnt have many jets either... the difference was the Me-262's were highly effective in combat, the Allied jets were too few and not fully developed to have any impact on the air war.
Could you make a video about Brazilian aces Pierre Clostermann?? He has a very interesting story
He was the son of a French diplomat and his wife and was born in Brazil, does that make him Brazilian or French? (Did he have citizenship of both countries? And even if he did, he flew under the French flag for the Free French Air Force in England not for Brazil sorry to point out). One interesting aspect of it is that he was taught flying by a German pilot called Karl Benitz who apparently was killed on the eastern front in 1943.
@@antartis73 He is Brazilian but has French citizenship because of his father, and he went to fight for the RAF because at that time Brazil did not have an air force yet formed (pilots were being trained since 1942 and would only be sent in early 1944)
@@pedroarthur919 So he was French......
@@Four-of-Six No, he was born in Brazil and lived here until early adulthood, then he went to France
He was French. Born of French parents, moved to France during his teens, lived in France and/or fought for France for the rest of his life. You might as well claim that Jim Howard (AVG and later USAAF fighter pilot) was Chinese because he was born there to missionary parents.
Some sources point to Kurt Welter as the greatest ace of the Me262.
And all victories were at night in the Me 262B-1a/U1 variant equipped with the Neptune radar.
Most beautiful plane ever!
Engine failure was a common problem, they only had 30 hours life for each engine before they had to be changed. The Germans didn't have the materials they needed to make a more reliable engine.
30 hour TBOs for a combat interceptor during WW2 was actually excellent...
The U.S. Army tested captured Me-262s during Operation Paperclip and Operation Lusty and found the engines averaged TBOs in the 50 to 60 hour range..
Better than many Allied piston engines.
the average was only 16 hours.
The Jumo 004B engines had a PFTR of 150 hours...
The RLM only required 100 hours for adoption in Luftwaffe service.
This was the exact same 100 hour PFTR required by the RAF and the USAAF during WW2.
TBOs for a R-R Merlin could be as little as 5 hours when WEP was used in combat
The F-86 Sabre in Korea could have TBOs of just 15 hours when Military Power was used repeatedly.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 LOL, 16 hours max and the useless ME262 fell apart.
@@georgebarnes8163 You seem to be one of those Alliboos that suffers from *262 Envy*
Although the IL-2 had big cannons, they were tank busters, not fighters. They stood no chance against the much faster and far better maneuverability of the BF-109
Yes but the IL-2 was well armoured and probably difficult to shoot down without sufficient cannon fire hits. it was also the most produced aircraft of WW2, so there must have been lots of them to shoot at!
@@thracianTV depends upon the Bf-109 that was doing the shooting. They all had cannons and 12.7mm (.50 caliber) machine guns. The cannon was firing through the nose, though the Bf-109k-14 and some other versions could also hang 20mm (.78 caliber) cannons from the wings. Some of the Bf109's had a 30mm (1.18 caliber) cannon in the nose. Pick a plane any plane, two or three 20mm cannon hits puts you down. One 30mm cannon hit and you're done. Remember these Me-BF109's were using armor piercing incendiary rounds that not only punched holes through armor, they also exploded and started fires inside whatever plane they hit.
On the Western front their primary targets were bombers, which is why they had the cannons. The US planes for the most part used .50 caliber machine guns because they were typically protecting bombers and the .50 caliber were not only plenty effective against other fighters, it also allowed them to carry a lot of ammo. Cannon rounds are big from about 50% larger for the 20mm and more than double the size for the 30mm than the US standard .50 caliber round.
Yes he IL2 had a lot of armor for a plane, in fact about 1,500-lbs of armor protecting crew, engine, radiators, and the fuel tank...but not the wings. Plus plenty of rear gunners were killed because only the flat plate directly in the front of the canopy was "bulletproof" and none of it was cannon-proof. Same with the canopy in the front. They were slow and heavily armed, with tanks and sometimes infantry being their targets. They were often referred to as flying tanks because even though they would fly slow and low, they were virtually impervious to small arms fire.
I've just finished a fantastic book called Fighter Group The 352nd "Blue Nosed Bastards" in world war II. By Jay A Stout. To any fans of second world war aviation. This is a must read. Highly recommended
Yeah that's a good one.
I need to look again but I think Stout reported George Preddy was shot down by friendly ground fire
@@Rhino1277HotRails if you are looking for more good reads on Allied aviation during the second world war. There are four titles that I highly recommend. "The forgotten fifteenth" and "Whirlwind" by Barrett Tillman. "The Crew" by David Price and "Masters of the air" by Donald L Miller.
@@jackmunday7602 I have both "15th" and "whirlwind", both very good. Not familiar with the other titles...will take a squint. Thanks for recco, no insult intended to someone who appears knowledgeable, but I recently re-excavated Jane's Battles With The Luftwaffe; Boiten/Bowman. In my opinion one of the best text/photo hybrids going.....if you don't have it ....get it. Plus re read Horrido (portions) recently. See ya round my friend 🍺
@@Rhino1277HotRails not offended at all mate. I'm always delighted to chat with like minded people with similar interests to me. I'll definitely keep an eye out for those titles. I'm always looking for excellent reads. I also have two more titles that may interest you. "Kamikaze hunters" by Will Iredale. This documents the exploits of the British Pacific fleet. (Being British myself it's one of my favourites) and "Dogfights over Tokyo" by John Wukovits. This tells the truly heart wrenching story of the last four American servicemen killed on the very last day of the war. I hope they bring you as much enjoyment as they have me. 😀
To bad the Lockheed P-80 wasn't operational during WWII we might have had the first Jet to Jet combat then but it didn't happen till the Korean War. The Gloster Meteor was operational but was never used over mainland Europe during the war but was regulated to shooting down buzz bombs over London.
A hero to you.
It’s not very clear on how many he got but I would figure franz stigler would be 1 of the top tho only 29 victories he had close to probably 100 and depicts it in a way in his book but only has 29 because he stopped counting in 1944 known as the guy who spared the b17 and was one of the first members in the squadron of experts and so much more
another idiot sharing rumors. he didnt have a hundred claims
First comment
Please make a video on Henry E Erwin who threw a bomb out of plane
Second
Thanks for the suggestion!
A good P-51 pilot that had good initial situational awareness of the Me-262's presence, should have been easily able to keep the jet's nose off of their plane. And I do mean easily! The 262 was not very agile to say the least. A P-51 should be able to out-rate it in a one circle and get nose on the 262 quite quickly in a two-circle.
The Me 262 pilots developed a new tactic to deal with enemy fighters; attack from behind and below - where they were very difficult to spot.
If this was the case Mike, we‘d still be using Mustangs. Jet tactics were completely different.
@@drstrangelove4998 Are you comparing early jet fighter tactics to those of the f35? the Me 262 was still a gunfighter, just like the late WWII prop aircraft.
The 262 turned better and had better high speed handling 🥴
While you fly your " circle " and loose much energy , the 262 flys straight and is gone long before you are behind him .
Maybe something about Dora-9 aces? Hans Dortenmann and Peter Marquardt opening stake.
New subscriber! Thank you for your informative documentaries!
The 262 was an amazing machine. Unfortunately for the Germans, they did have time for proper training and development of appropriate tactics. The 262 was not a dogfighter anymore than the F4 Phantom, but if you fought it vertical, it was invincible!
It was a beautiful shark like aircraft and well ahead of it's time.
Invisible??
Germany had an impressive and unmatched group of pilots!
Unmatched? No there were great pilots in all the combatant forces. But unmatched squadrons, that's a different story...
Unmatched? I'd say. Here are the top 10 Luftwaffe aces. No Soviets, Amis, Brits or others ever came close...
Theodor Weissenberger - 208 kills
Heinrich Ehrler - 208 kills
Hermann Graf - 212 kills
Heinz Bär - 220 kills
Erich Rudorffer - 222 kills
Willie Batz - 237 kills
Otto Kittel - 267 kills
Gunther Rall - 275 kills
Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 kills
Erich Hartmann - 352 kills
@@17cmmittlererminenwerfer81 a little jealous, normal from the greatest country. Lol. Without us, they would ride their horses until todsy, and don't even come to the moon. They stole so much, cause they are not the smartest.
@@17cmmittlererminenwerfer81 Curiously you do not break down as to how many of the kills were on the Eastern front where it is generally accepted it was a lot easier to rack up high numbers.
Over all Mustangs shot down far more Me-262s then were shot down by them. Me-262s were great in making one fast pass and then running, not staying around and dogfighting. The early jet engines didn't like sudden changes in throttle
Auch eine Messerschmidt 109 war mit einem erfahrenem Pilot ein Mustang-Killer.
Incredible score
German pilots were the best to ever lived.
So great they utterly failed to win the war
@@shirghazaycowboys What people don’t realize is how very close the Germans were of winning the war. If they have had Stalin or Roosevelt as president (cause they all listened to their generals) instead of Hitler the Germans would have won. Which would have been obviously bad.
@John hotz Nothing in comparison to the German aces in planes and I can throw there even Tank commanders 🤪🙃 (Michael Whitman is the best tank commander to ever have lived, German)
There’s a pretty awesome documentary about him.
Superior German engineering
No contest