P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better?
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. But which fighter was better? Let's find out! This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. Hope you enjoy! Please like, comment, and subscribe.
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For me doesnt matter those fighter is better, important fighter pilot to be an true ace, smart and fearless, with honour for their country and sure for nemies, like when a bf109 spared a b17 bomber.
Exactly experianced pilots in t38 catch new f22 pilots every day in mock combat
Damn the Me262 is one of the most beautiful planes ever made.. I love it.
yeah it really was the first fighter jet ever exist.
@@redshaggyguy No it wasn’t the us army made prototypes way before that but they decided not to use it
@@footballbasketball182hi5 actually it was the British frank whittle in UK and Hans von ojalá in Germany...that experiment whit jets. In 1939...( First jet flay 8/27/1939 ) but the German's were the first one to develop and use this new technology in combat... The first single jet engine was patent by french ING Maxime Guillaume in 1922
In grade 7 I drew a pocture of it in a dive on an overcast day. All the other kids drew pictures too in hope they would have theirs chosen to be featured in our local papers weather section . Mine was picked, swaztika on the tail and everything lol. Albeit was a long time ago.
@@yankee7664 An interesting fact the first jet aircraft to fly the Heinkle used a jet engine which was a centrifugal/axial flow hybrid based off Whittles 1930 patent. It's inventor admitted as much but was not able to develope it any further and his delay caused the Heinkle aircraft company its chance at the contract the Me 262 eventually won. While the 262 was the first jet fighter to see combat the RAF Meteor was the first jet fighter to see full squadron operational service in July 1944. The 262 would not reach squadron operational service until Dec 1944.
The P51 was better in escort and ground attack, but in interception, speed and weaponry the ME262 was the best.
yeah its an offense/defense kinda thing
Bot really. Your scenarios are kinda backwards. You would want speed for hitting slow or stationary targets so AA cant get you. In interception where you end up in a dogfight, you want higher maneuverability.
@@johnycakes6613 Not really. Me 262s were design to make high speed attack runs and take down bombers that were bombing Germany, not to play with escorting fighters. Also manoeuvrability might have been an issue yes but think that a single 30mm round was usually enough to bring down a fighter.
@@maisonraider4593 yeah that too. The ME 262 was good at attacking anything of high value that couldn’t swing around and fight back. It was made to get in and get out before anything could retaliate. The Mustang was better for maneuverability and therefore the dogfights.
@@johnycakes6613 All other things being equal, I'd rather be in an ME262 once at altitude. Dog fighting is overrated. Most planes are shot down before the dog fight ever begins and the speed at which an ME262 could close on a P51 allowed that to happen. If a P51 gained the advantage, the ME262 could simply use its speed to disengage. But in reality, the practical advantage was with the P51; they greatly outnumbered ME262's in the skies, they were easier to master for most pilots, they comprised a simpler more forgiving technology, and were more versatile overall (e.g., the vulnerability of the ME262 at low altitude).
Also, it should be noted that when the P-51s began operational use in the 8th AF, the mission profile changed from “protecting” the bombers to using the bombers as bait to bring out the LW and destroy it. The 8th AF intentionally provoked the LW by going after certain targets and then used its vast numerical superiority to deal death blows to the LW - look up “Big Week”
A product is only good if it is functional and consumer-friendly. The P-51 fits the bill. Whereas the Me-262 was a technological marvel which came too late into the war. Germany's resources were greatly depleted.
We are talking about which plane was BETTER. Not how it effected the war.
@@bobuboi4643 The Me262 was hypothetically better. That's it. Comparing a jet fighter to a prop fighter is apples and oranges.
@@neilpemberton5523 I know. I'm not saying that props are bad. Infact. I like props more then jets. I really love early jets like. Mig-15 and me262 though.
@BOBUBOI if you want to compare which was better then you should compare the Me-262 to the P-80 Shooting Star. Its silly to compare a jet to a piston engined fighter. If piston engined fighters were better we would still be flying them today.
The P-80 was never ready. It was used in Italy and failed because pilots were dying in it. Richard Bong top American Ace died when his P-80 exploded in 1945! Other top test pilots died flying it. So the Americans never flew a combat jet and Germany did so fair game. The P-51 and Me 262 fought each other so comparisons can be made.
I spoke with Chuck Yeagar & got him to admit the 262 he shot down was out of fuel & landing. That was usually the case.
Whatever it takes.
Thats posible since they had very limited range but remember about a quater of all 262 shot down were done so buy bomber guns at altitude. Very few over all were downed landing or taking off overall.
Since the ME262 was designed to take out bombers and that it was out numbered 20 to 1 by the P51, the P51 was in more danger of crashing into each other while trying to get on a ME262's tail.
The ME262 was a thirsty plane and had a range of 650 miles. But that is straight and level flight, Dogfighting severely limited its range.
Yep, if a 51 pilot could out maneuver a 262 in a dog fight until the 262 was low on fuel the 51 pilot could follow the 262 and destroy it on landing.
The 262 should never have gotten involved in dog fights, they should have used their speed to avoid the p51's and just hit the bombers.
Again according the Luftwaffe's own rulles the 262 was strictly forbidden to dogfight in any way. The only way they engaged fighter was if by chance a careless pilots crossed directly in front of them. The 262 made alow turns, could only slow role and could not spin at all. This made it impossible to meneuver in the manner needed to traditional dogfighting. Also that horible mk 108 30 mm cannon limited to just 500 yards going up against machine guns rated up to 1700 to 2000 yards was suicide.
@@lancelotlink3907 considering pilots were not allowed to just go flying all over the country side thats unlikely.
i love the in-depth facts and analysis based on the mustang and the schwalbe. I hope to see more!
There were few facts in this video, the content creater never bothered checking their facts but instead chose to repeat other creators comments. The top speed of the 262 was between 510 and 515mph in combat trim. The fastest allied fighter it faced was the Spitfire at 480 mph. The P47 and Tempest were between 450 to 460 mph with the P51 the slowest at 440 mph. All in level flight at aprox 20 thousand feet. Also the jet goggled up more oxygen above that and the speed difference closed even more.
So, we are comparing thousands of P51s, which were the force that finished off the Luftwaffe as a threat before D-Day, to about three hundred Me262s which were introduced way too late to have real effect whatsoever, and had dodgy engines to boot.
Excellent post on the true reality of the situation. Thank you…
The Me 262 was technologically advanced. It paved the way for the jet age. And it did achieve a 4:1 ratio.
@@Justin-nj4gs The Me 262 wasn't all that 'advanced'. The allies were also developing jets at literally the exact same time. Like the Gloster E.28. There's a much better argument for the He 178 "paving the way", since it was the first 'practical jet', but in truth, nazi germany had pretty shit 'technology' overall. They liked their big expensive mega-engineering projects, but were colossally anti-science, and as a result, had marginal help at best from academics. Turns out throwing out friends and colleagues of your best and brightest doesn't earn you many sympathizers among researchers. Just about the only thing the germans had which the allies weren't just as 'good' at if not 'better' was rocket propulsion, though the soviets weren't bad.
Beyond that, the allies were at least as good, if not technologically superior to nazi germany. From codebreaking to literal computers to mathematics to statistics to radar to sonar to the entire subject of nuclear physics, nazi germany was routinely outclassed. Often by people who were kicked out by the nazis.
@@Killua2001 I'm a history major, and well, ur wrong on a few points. Lmk if u would like me to correct u
@@WestCoastOnePride I was a physics major, so sure, feel free to correct me. What did I miss out on? I've got a pretty good understanding of just how bad nazi physics was, but hey, maybe they had some chemists I'm not thinking about? They did love their poison gas.
Comparing the P-51 to the Me-262 is like comparing apples and oranges, you can't compare propeller driven technology to jet engine technology. Hitler's wonder weapons were too little and too late to make any difference in the outcome of the war. Actually few Me-262's managed to get in the air because fuel for both conventional and jet engine aircraft was in severe short supply, so much so that German's pushed or towed by horses their aircraft onto the runway instead of taxiing. Once in the air a Me-262 pilot had only one full bore pass on a bomber formation before being bounced by U.S. fighters from higher altitudes which gave either P-47's or P-51's the speed they needed to catch a fleeing Me-262. U.S. fighters usually followed the German jets to their airfields where it was pretty much over. Being a German pilot even in a Me-262 in 1945 was suicide, there were just too many U.S. fighters that roamed Germany shooting up anything that moved. Incredibly the German's kept up an impressive production number of aircraft but it was all for not since there was no fuel or pilots to put them in the air.
US fighter's? You seem oblivious that there were airforce from multiple nations in the air over western Europe. Also they would not follow the 262 to its airfields as their job was to remain with the Bomber forces to at least some degrees. After western allies moved their fighter forces moved to mainland Europe standard practice was for fighter squadrons to patrol over known German airfields which they would bomb and shoot them up. A fact not often mentioned is gunners in the heavy bomber shot down between 20 to 25 percent of all 262 lost to the enemy. There are so many factual errors in this video its not funny.
Yes, Tiger tanks were great, but they lacked fuel and the allies probably had 20 tanks for every one tiger tank. The same applies for planes like the 262 and FW190D-9's and TA series, they also lost their experienced pilots and couldn't train new ones up to a high standard. Germany just got swarmed by numbers.
Excellent video! The analyses and comparisons were accurate, encompassing and impartial; the scenes were well made and immersive. One information that could have been added when comparing the practicalities: the European Theater had some 9,000 P-51s (with at least some 4,000 operational at any one time), and 1,400 Me-262 (with only some 200 operational at any one time), which was a huge advantage for the P-51.
Good job, TJ3!
There isn’t a plane in the world that isn’t at risk during take off or landing.
As long as the pilot used the speed advantage the ME-262 was better but on a one on one turning battle the P-51 would of been better. There was encounters like this also later on in Korea and Vietnam. MIgs vs. piston powered airplanes. Mig jet vs. A1 Skyraider in Vietnam. The Skyraider held its own against the MIg even though there was a clear speed advantage on the side of the MIg. The Skyraider being the ultimate combat aircraft and last of the piston powered airplanes.
It should be noted that more than 2000 P51s were lost in combat over Germany (losses due to training and ferry not counted).
As an aviator I would like to have a single one only.
Sadly I can not afford it. Now you can see where the true riches are !
Gotta do more of these!
Are you ever going to do videos about air combat in other conflicts? Korea, Vietnam, Arab-Israeli Wars, Falklands, conflicts in Africa, are all possibilities.
Love the videos!
Thanks! As soon as I can get a different flight sim to learn to do all those visuals, I plan to. Right now, I only have WWII aircraft. But I plan to eventually.
@@TJ3 Microsoft Flight Simulator X and DCS: Saber Hunters Over the Yalu both have excellent selections of other types of aircraft.
I love anything with guns and wings, the 262 was in a class of its own but Hitler hindered it's development as he wanted it to be a fighter bomber, along with the lack of chromium alloys that were needed for high heat components for the engines, after a few flights the engines had to be changed due to warping of internal parts.
The Me-262 was more hindered by lack of fuel as over 1500 were produced but less than 100 made it into actual combat. You are correct on the engines but with no fuel the Luftwaffe was grounded anyway…
@@CH-pv2rz That's right, fuel was another problem. It amazes me how Germany lasted so long with the US and RAF bombing their production facilities 🤔
The engines were actually a huge problem. The engines were rated 25 flight hours and they had to be replaced. I read this was actually more like 12 flight hours and pilots could not vary the throttle due to poor metal alloys used on the compressor blades. A better comparison might be the Gloster meteor which used a centrifugal jet engine versus the axial flow jet engine used on the me 262.
Depends on your situation.Got to keep your head on a swivel.
a logical and impartial comparison between the two planes .
I am interested to know if the ME 262 played any part in Operation Bodenplatte , as it was originally envisioned as a fighter bomber ( and not as a " pure" fighter ) by Hitler
I do not consider a Me262 a fighter but a interceptor...
It was awful in dogfights against propellers
I love your stuff, but the P-38 had the range to escort all the way to Germany too. The P-38 had a combat radius of 950 miles, which was frequently flown in the Pacific. In fact, the first US fighter over Berlin was … P-38Hs of the 55th FG on 3 March 1944.
Distance to Berlin was over 600 miles each way on the routes flown for escort. The P-38 did not have the range to make it all the way to Berlin, fight battles along the way and make it back. Only the P-51 could so that.
@@CH-pv2rz Tell that to the pilots of the 55th FG. Also, watch Greg’s vid about P-47 range where he touches on the 8th AF being less than forthright about the range of various fighters.-
The P-51 is not a dogfighting aircraft. It was a high altitude interceptor developed to protect the bombers.
Big error. In a dogfight, the faster the rate of turn the faster you get your sights on the enemy and can take out the enemy. In a dog fight, the P51 is better. In Blitzkrieg tactics where get in get out is the game, the 262 is better.
The same logic applies to the A10 Warthog. It has a tighter turn radius than any other fighter jet: F15, F22, F35, MIGs, Sukhoi, etc. In a dogfight, the A10 is a champ, especially with twin sidewinders and the BRRT gun.
Right up till you throw a SAM or long range AAM at it
@@techhelpportal7778 Congrats for trying to be cheeky. That accounts for literally every aircraft with basically the MiG 25 as the exception
At the end of the day, it's not the plane, it's the pilot.
The P-51 embodies that mantra.
The question is, better for what?
P-51: Better for dogfighting with enemy fighters.
Me 262: Better at destroying enemy bombers.
The Me 262 is basically a single seater Me 410 with jet engines, swept wings and heavier armament. It’s a twin engined heavy fighter. Because it was so fast, it didn’t need a rear gunner.
The Jumo 004 jet engine was much better suited to a jet bomber than a jet fighter, since it reacted extremely poorly and extremely slowly to rapid changes in throttle setting, and was very liable to flameouts.
Me 262 pilots were trained to take off, set the throttle to a high speed setting, and then not touch the throttle again until it was time to land. Which is not how you would expect a fighter to be flown.
@@timonsolus agree
Kurt Welter, Heinrich Bär, Franz Schall, Walter Nowotny, Johannes Steinhoff were the better known Messerschmitt Me 262 Piloten. And Messerschmitt Me 262 was one of the best looking airplanes all time.
@Rudy Z looks are meaningless… The P-51 had a tremendous effect on the War. The Me-262 had no effect on the war. Even Russian fighters had better kill counts than the jet…
We can judge aircraft by looks at peace but during the war looks mattered not. With a 1.5 to 1 kill ratio the 262 did little to affect the outcome of the war at all.
The real answer is the 262 because within a few years piston engine fighters were obsolete. Every country just developed their own jet fighters. Britain usa russia just concentrated the new race to make the best jet fighters. The day the 262 took it consigned piston engine fighters to history no matter how advanced they were
The real answer is the jet over the piston engine, not the ME 262. That jet had problems which is why nobody simply copied its design and continue to produce it.
Everyone else was already designing Jets at the time, they just didn't rush them out to the front because they weren't ready and the Allies weren't losing and getting desperate to push unreliable technology out WAY before it was ready.
Okay some wrong numbers there, the 262 top combat speed was 515 mph and not as you claimed. That is according to the Luftwaffe pilots hand book, the debriefing of Luftwaffe acceptance pilot Hans Fey and post war RAF and US AF/AC post war testing. Also Luftwaffe documentation forbid any dogfighting by 262 pilots because the aircraft simply could not match turning, role rate or dive speeds. Also it's 30 mm cannons had only a 500 yard range compared to the .50 cal guns used in the four top fighters used on the western front which was 1700 yards. The 262 was to use altitude and attack bomber formations ignoring the fighters. After passing it was to turn around and again go after the bomber stream until full ran out. Bombers were not helpless though as armed with as many as ten .50 cal machine guns with tracers they could engage the 262 from about 2000 yards out and downed about 25% of all 262 lost in combat. The chances of them downing a bomber were not high as at speeds they had to close to within 500 yards aim then break away to avoid hitting their target. According to Luftwaffe pilots who flew the 262 that gave them between 2 and 3 seconds only. Many pilots returned home never having fired a shot until they gained experience. One of the first operational units was a fighter bomber squadron in December who lost 12 aircraft in one week and was withdrawn from combat.
1300 P51 against 15 Me262 is sufficient evidence !
6:58 you meant to say 560 mph not kmh.
Galland said that it was like being pushed by Angels the first time he flew the 262. The made JG44 just to protect the 262 on landing and take offs.
Browsing my older videos I see! Haha
All airfields were patrolled, this idea that 262 fields were singled out is absurde. Given the tottal air supiriority the allies had they had to tell their pilots to fly somewhere. Also from winter of 1944/45 the Luftwaffe had little to no air pressence. Aircraft missions were less than 100 a day while the allies flew thousands and thousands.
Dogfighting is a waste of time. Getting into a turning fight with an enemy aircraft leaves you vulnerable to surprise. In a ME 262 you would also loose to much energy in a turn negating the fighters main advantage over Allied piston engine fighters. To utilize the speed advantage of the ME 262 against American bomber formations, it would prove advantageous to ignore the American escorts when attacking the bombers. As long as you maintained your energy advantage, you could render the escorts impotent.
So you understand that there would be 800 to 1200 allied fighters facing the 10 to 50 mixed Luftwaffe fighters attacking the bombers from mid 44 onwards? Fighters were stagered at various altitudes so any attack on the bombers could be met with escorts attacking the fighters from above. Using the speed gained in a dive meant there was no speed advantage for the 262 unless they cut and run by climbing and fleeing the area. Also the .50 cal guns in both bombers and fighters could reach up to 2000 yards. The 30mm cannon in the 262 was only good for 500 yards. Another big disadvantage for the 262. Bombers downed about a quater of all 262 lost. Not a shocker why the 262 had only a 1.5 to 1 kill ratio and was scrapped post war.
The Me-262 was superior in air to air combat due to its higher speed.Most P-51 kills came when the 262s had to slow down coming in for a landing.German ace Rudolf Galland was shot down in one this way.
What about p51 in korean war when they have to face mig 15
Rudolf Galland? Lol... never heard of him.
Or when the 262 pilot did something stupid like slowed down and got in a turning fight. You wouldn't think so but this did happen.
@@huiyinghong3073 I talked to a Korean War Corsair pilot he did get in a tussel with a mig 15. The answer was to keep turning into the mig, It kept the mig from being able to get on his six and forced head on passes which didn't really favor the mig. Neither of them got shot down that day, the mig pilot decided to look for easier prey I think.
messerschmitt is truly fast jet first gen and it is true, that if your opponents are slower the harder it is too shoot.
I played a game where other players are incredibly slow at jets and just being killed easily by an experienced gamer.
The Americans did have the P-80 and it made it into the War in Italy… So the most advanced US fighter in WW2 was the P-80 Shooting Star… This is the aircraft you should be comparing to the Me-262...
Apparently you can buy them new now, if you have the money.
Excellent video. Thank you.
Being newer and more advanced doesn't always equate into better. A nail gun is more advanced than a hammer, being able to put more nails in would faster and straighter. But it requires a power source amd only good for driving nails. A hammer is slower and can be more sloppy but it can be used anywhere and not just for driving nails.
I do think the me 262 is a better fighter up high above the clouds. But if we were fighting at low altitudes many problems will occur for the me 262. I think the me 262 is a better fighter but it also has more disadvantages then the p 51
*Strike Witches* . I want your honest review of the type of ‘aircraft’ worn by the Witches & what your working version(s) would be like & how you’d utilize such forces…
First functional Jet aircraft engine was actually patented by the British before NAZI Germany existed. The turning rate of the Mustang would have given it an advantage in dog fights every where except in high altitude high speed encounters combined with the notoriously unreliable axial jet engines and short range of the ME-262 - This explains why they never made an impact in the war and never challenged American air superiority over Germany.
The British WW2 Jet fighter was only used locally over British territory exactly for these reasons but it did very well against the German V-1s heading for British soil.
To be fair, we should mention that on German side, only experienced pilots with long fighting history flew the Me262. Even if Germany had been able to build this aircraft in bigger numbers, there would have been the lack of pilots. When Me262 appeared in the sky, it already was too late to change anything.
They produced 1400 of then, how many more would you want. When all was said and done the confirmed kill ratio of the 262 was just 1.5 to 1 hardly anything to get excitable. You had the prop fighter at its top level vrs the birth of jet engines which were very fragile and under powered. Not much of a comparison.
@@jimdavison4077 I did not check this in detail, but I d not believe in this number. I read about 1430 series machines, fits to your comment. (Compare this to the nr of P51 Mustang produced in the same period) Series production started in April 44. In autumn 44, they could hardly supply them, suffered from 2nd quality material and transferred parts of the production to air protected mines, where PWs or KZ-prisoners had to be employed for production. Indeed, the jet engines were fragile. No more than 100 jets were ready for action at the same time. And they had very little experienced pilots as the group around Galland or Lützow, who often acted as trainers but active pilots. The production of gasoline was reduced to 3% because of the bombardment of the coal hydrogenization works. A Luftwaffe pilot junior went to battle after 150h of training compared to 450h in RAF or 600h in US AF. Maybe (too many maybe´s) , if this plane had come one year earlier, it could have change something, but the time factor was important in any case. I thank God that LosAlamos was not raedy 1/2 year earlier. Comparing the prop fightes, I think that Spitfire, Mustang and Me109 were in a nose-to nose techical development race over years. In this case, tactics and experience decided about loss or victory, if not one part was outnumbered. But this is my personnel meaning, I am not the very expert.
@@robinahlberg2979 well for someone saying they are not an expert you seem well informed in what you wrote. Only thing i would add is the Mustang can hardly be placed in the same catagory as the BF 109 or Spitfire in development terms. The BF 109 flew in the Spanish Civil war yet still finished the war as one of Germany's best all around day fighters with much much higher kill ratio that the 262. The Spitfire like the 109 was a pre war design that was innoperation prior to the war starting in 39. Both the early war birds saw their horsepower doubled and armaments trippled during updating. While the Mustang had their use and filled a role urgently needed it never reached the same level of development or even performance of say the Spitfire. Thats the thing various aircraft fill different roles all of which were vital to winning the war. Example carrier aircraft were slower and less maneuverable than land based fighter do to being heavier because of carrier landings and flying over water meaning more radio equipment, armour and so on.
Another thing i see is people talking about had Germany got the 262 into the air a year or two sooner. Why would anyone even think that had the need been there the allies, UK and US in particular, could not have advanced their jet programs? Lets look at facts, what slowed the 262 program down was first the BMW engine it was originally designed for never materialized. So it had to be redesigned for the Jumo. Also the Jumo faced technical problems which delayed series production until August 44 a month after RAF 616 squadron became the first operational jet fighter squadron in history. This fact is often overlooked or ignored. While the 262 did reach combat three months earlier than the Meteor it only flew with test command a unit which tested various aircraft to see how to best employ it and only a small number of development aircraft not production aircraft. The UK had half a dozen jet engines test flown by 43 all with supirior results than either thr Jumo or BMW turbojets. Most know nothing of the British Metrovick program.
@@robinahlberg2979 Germany never would have had the atomic bomb dropped on it. At the time some 70% of US citizens had some German blood plus being a white Christian nation it was never going to happen. The ironic thing is it was believed Germany was in a race to create their own atomic bomb but in the end it was determined no such project existed. They were building an atomic engine as they called it or we know as a nuclear reactor to make electricity. Heisenberg and Neils Bohr both wrote a great deal about this period in German atomic research.
@@jimdavison4077 Right, even when Germany occupied the Norvegian electric power plant in Vemork, where heavy Deuterium water was produced - the Germans did not know what to do with it. They thought it was used for medical purpose and did not mention. It was Szillard who convinced Einstein that the Germans were on the way to the bomb - the possibility was real, but both were wrong. Nevertheless, I am sure that America would have used the bombs where they could have achieved the strongest effect. America lost much more lifes in the Pacific war compared to the European front, correct? Indeed, than Japan had been the more important target.
The P 51 was a piece of art best fighter plane in American history
I think you're suffering from P-51 overload. I think you'll find that many many pilots who flew in WW2 considered the P-47 a superior fighter that could bring a pilot home when one stray round could and would down a water cooled P-51. Don't believe all the hype that the P-51 was the only fighter that could escort all the way to Berlin and that 445 mph your bragging about was about 30 mph slower than the P-47. The major reason for the P-51's replacing the P-47 was the cost of each plane.
The P-52 mustang changed the course of WW2. The ME-262 changed future of aerial combat. The mustang defines the end of an era while the ME-262 marks the beginning of a new. Comparisons of kill counts is not meaningful. ME-262 pilots were often high scoring aces before flying the jet and already would have much more skilled than the average Luftwaffe pilots. Also if ME-262s were attacking fighters it would most likely be a mustang but if a mustang was attacking fighters they would most likely been FW-190s or ME-109s and rarely an ME-262 so that skews numbers in favour of the ME-262.
P51 was not the best of piston-engine fighters. The speed advantage of P 51 was due to the high quality full the allied had (130 octane) compare with 90 octane that Germans were using.
@@jacobjonm0511 I'd didn't say it was the best I said it changed the course of WW2. Also I don't play computer games maybe that's why I don't have the same opinion as you.
Nice video
Great Video TJ
The big issue with the me262 was Germany ..... Where's the fucking air superiority when your enemy can block out the sun with their planes
The Germans should have used amo creating lesser debris.
All the debris from the P51 sucked into the intake causes immediate engine fail.
The P51D Mustang was the apex or final evolution of piston engine propeller planes while the Messerschmitt Me 262 fighter was one of the first and rushed to the front lines jets. I would give the edge to the Mustang simply because the bugs hadn't really been worked out on the Me 262 jets. Also the American pilots were better trained and flew less missions because they had more men in their air force.
Fw190 Ta152 entered the chat.
The Mustang was the slowest of the four top allied fighters facing the Luftwaffe in 1944/45. It was the weakest in several ways in fact but could still deal with the 262 in the hands of a well trained pilot.
@@maisonraider4593 even later model Bf 109s were dangerous to allied fighters. The prop fighters the Luftwaffe had were infinitly more dangerous than its jets but without aviation gasoline they were nothing more than ground targets. After the fall of France Germany was cut off from Standard Oil who supplied Germany via the Canary Islands through Spain accross France and up to Germany. When that line was cut Luftwaffe operations dropped significantly.
@@jimdavison4077 I didn’t know the Germans relied on that oil route nor I knew it even existed.
@@maisonraider4593 look up "trading with the enemy" for more information. Money was funneled through south America through Chase bank. Several US companies felt war and patriotism should not be above profit. Ford, GM, Dupont and others all profitied off Nazi Germany the entire war.
I don't understand this comment that no other US fighter had the range to do this. In the Pacific, P-38s with drop tanks did incredible distances to their targets, and with 4 50s and a 20mm cannon, they tore stuff up.
The P-38 could not escort successfully. It froze up in a dive creating losses in a dive. P-38s were shot down by Me 262s.
P-47 also had the range
@@milanprica7513 Yes, and no other country could go the same distances that ours did, and some of them didn't have strong enough wings to carry tanks.
Most other countries focused on interceptors with better climb rates but shorter distances. The only competition for combat range were the Japanese due to the realities of the Pacific Theater.
Eric winkle brown flew both planes aswell hundreds of others . According to him the me 262 was the most formidable fighter of ww2 . I go with his opinion.
Brown like Galland lost track of what their own ideas were being paid to say whatever the show they were on wanted them to. Hard to take either one straight when there is so much information contrary to them.
I think we always oversee that it is never a one on one encounter but a team effort.Schwalbe was a too late to few story and as a whole the American Air Dorce was superior and able to get over any techniclal disadvantage, and so it went like it went
I'm sorry, but the Me-262 benefits from a lot of overhype. For being next generation tech, it really didn't have that much of a speed advantage... there's videos of allied fighters shooting them down not just trying to land, but at altitude in combat. The engines being in pods underwing, in particular, were a disadvantage to speed and vulnerability. Worst of all, had the war dragged on just a few more months, they would've gone up against the P-80... which, while hot garbage compared to the Mig-15 and F-86 later in Korea, were still superior to the 262.
No, the P-80 was not clearly superior according to USAF pilots who got to fly them both! Most guys who flew the 262's were impressed, and that's why they were so thoroughly studied by the Americans, the Brits, and the copy-cat Soviets!
@@NoThx7531no fact
I think the p38 and me 262 should fight their twin engine fighters
It doesn't matter how good a plane is if it doesn't have an excellent pilot
Very cool. Repetitive music is my only con
What about the gloster meteor much more reliable
what about the p80 shooting star
P80 is evidence that high speed aerodynamic was not understood in the west.
It took the west another decade to develop a reasonable jet aircraft !
The better of the two ultimately came down to the pilot.
Anyone gets reminded of a loaf of bread when looking at the Me-262?
how can you compare prop vs jet?
Easily when they actually flew against each other.
I agree
All i know if i was to go back to 1945...i would have a P51 under my ass!
It was better built then the ME 262!
I would want the fastest and most meneuverable, the Spitfire. But any one of the four frontline western allied fighters were capable of taking on and defeating the 262 if flown by competent pilots.
THE ME 262 IS JUS BEAUTIFUL LOOKIN ..MEAN ASS SHARK LOOKIN. GERMANY ALWAYS ONE STEP AHEAD IN ENGINEERING ESPECIALLY IN AVIATION. JET ENGINE TECHNOLOGY THEY LED THE WAY
It’s not about the aircraft itself it’s all about the pilot himself
Ace vs rookie
Vise versa
Experienced vs not experienced at all
Shalom peace ☮️
... und jetzt noch ne Horten 229 🦅
For the genuine story of how devastatingly effective the P51B/C/D's were against ME 262's I suggest reading
[ ME 262 Vs P51 1944-45, Robert Forsythe, 2019] .
P51B/C/D's killed ME 262's at remarkable rates. From NOV 1944 to MAY 8, 1945, P51B/C/D's shot down more than 140 ME 262's.
This does not diminish the remarkable technical achievement that the ME 262 represented. Although more than 1400 ME 262's were produced, the Luftwaffe could only have about 25-50 operational at any one time, and there were likely only 200-250 ME 262's total ever made operational.
In 1944-45, the ME-262 was very much in the developmental stage, with many technical issues, going up against a fully mature piston-engine fighter in the P51B/C/D. So it is not surprising that the P51, flown by well trained pilots, would have the upper hand against the 1944-45 era ME 262.
Had the P51B/C/D had to face the ME 262 in 1954-55, with the ME 262 having a more mature jet technology advanced by 10 years, then the P51 would likely not have been able to rack up the impressive kill scores achieved in 1944-45.
The best thing about the p 51 was sheer number of planes, pilots, fuel, and material the allies had. The biggest problem everyone misses about the Me262 is how mind boggling out numbered they were. The best the Germans ever managed to get in the air was in the mid thirties. More realistically it was handful of Me262 taking on allied air fleets that blackened the sky with sheer numbers. Under these conditions no other plane in the world except the Me 262 could even dream to operate. If the germans had the p51 they'd all be dead. If Germans could consistently get 200 to 400 Me262's in the air,, the allies would be forced into using jets as well.
And still the British are claiming the invented the jet engine... Pathetic
I say the P-51D is the best fighter against the ME-262. The Red Tails and other American pilots showed this in WW2.
What?. One jet was shot down by a random American ace, the other three by the Tuskegee Airmen (redtails sounds cringe so I'm gonna say there real name). ALL on landing. Infact the Americans lost 14 Mustangs for 2 me-262's. In A WEEK.
@@bobuboi4643 true the 262 is better but how does red tails sound cringe,i think it sounds badass
@@typehyuga607 Because it sounds childish.
@ BOBUBOI !!! …And on March 18, 1945, thirty-seven Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one Mustang fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. All to Mustangs. That is a 3 to 1 advantage to the Mustang… And only the very best German Aces flew the Me-262. 10 kills of Mustangs were by one Ace. He used high speed passes on Mustangs before they knew they were under attack. He would never make a second pass. Such kills were often the result of fighter encounters. Very rarely did any degenerate into dogfights. And Hit and run tactics were used by both sides so it hardly makes either aircraft better Anyone that had actually flown would already know that. Only armchair warriors fight with statistics.
Furthermore the Me 262’s mission was not to fight P-51s. They would dive through them to get to the bombers. The fact that they downed multiple bombers with all that escort shows that the Me 262 was a capable machine in a bad situation. It achieved a 4:1 ratio overall even with low fuel, pilots and enemy superiority.
The evolution of the military planes is a proof that ME 262 (jet fighters in general) was the way to go. Otherwise we're still producing piston-engine planes.
Also lesson to the Adolf Galland view on ME 262. He calls other plans 'ballons' compared with ME 262 because of the significant speed advantage.
p47D-30 has left the chat
The ME 262 was at a grievous disadvantage against a well-flown P-51 in a dogfight. Poor maneuverability, worse acceleration and diving performance were limitations that were difficult to overcome. It was never meant to dogfight. It was designed to shoot down bombers. WW2 air engagements weren't fought on the straight and level; if they were, a top speed of 540 mph would have been more of an advantage.
LOL... you're completely wrong. Ww2 proved it was about level speed.
@@milanprica7513 nope.
@@wanyelewis9667 yup. Level speed was basically most important and improved feature in evolution of ww2 fighters. Fighters got faster and faster, and heavier and less maneuverable. Thus the age of Jet came. Jets were much faster....
No question the me262 is far superior however the tech was temprementsl and came to late to make a difference
When Germany made a new plane, and it still sucks more than the Americans': "Verdammt noch mal !!!"
Im not sure if this is true to real life but when you are in an ME 262, you will only choose to enter a dogfight with much more energy (speed) than your adversary. This can allow you to be extremely aggressive during the first turn of a dogfight such as doing a manoeuvre that a prop can’t follow you into, (vertical yoyo) and stalling or choosing not to follow. Even with this energy advantage, the ME 262 was designed to be a hit and run plane (hence the BIG guns as there is only a short window of opportunity), swiftly striking before the enemy could react. Theoretically, this means that the chance that an enemy plane even opens fire in the first place is way lower than normal which would reduce the amount of planes that a struggling Germany would have to produce. I don’t even know if what i said was accurate but i think this is how the plane was supposed to be used. If anyone knows how the plane was actually used, I would be interested to know.
Its an Advance Dogfight ever
Back in 2005 when I was a teenager. I meet this 83 year old WWII pilot veteran. He said that the Allies were intimidated.. but The P51 mustang could beat the German jet. He’s been there done that
Äpfel und Birnen Vergleich, aber typischer Unsinn, paßt !
P51 was not the best of piston-engine fighters. The speed advantage of P 51 was due to the high quality full that allied had (130 octane) compare with 90 octane that Germans were using.
The best based on what? , it had the edge in speed over some other piston engine planes at high altitudes, but does that make it the best? Even the bf109K could out climb it.
@@maisonraider4593 and I said it was not the best
@@jacobjonm0511 oh. I missed the not sorry. By the way the late fw190 ta152h could perform at its best even without the high octane fuel.
At least Germany did help break through new challenges and create new stuff
Such as? The UK was leaps and bounds ahead of Germany in multiple fields including jet technologies, radar, sonar, aircraft production and the study of supersonic flight. Fastest prop or jet speeds reached was the RAF in 43.
262 was easily the more advanced plane. They just did not have enough of them.
The P-80 and Gloster Meteor were both more advanced than the Me-262. They had superior jet engines and P-80 was the first jet fighter with the engine in the fuselage like all modern fighters.
@@RandomDudeOne But they never met the 262 in combat unfortunately
The reality is: it comes down to training. The only chance a mustang had was really catching it on landing/takeoff. Another way mustangs would catch them was due to lack of adequate training and German pilots prop driven evasive action: German pilots would instinctively dive when being attacked from a mustang with higher altitude due to natural reaction when used to flying in prop aircraft: very few were shot down due to superior altitude off a deflection shot with an ME-262 staying it's straight flight course, they were simply too fast. Love the mustang, the best mass built prop plane of the war no doubt, but comparing a prop to jet is simply irrational: people arguing for a mustangs advantage in maneuverability is numbing: a biplane is also highly maneuverable as compared to a monoplane, but no one would make that argument, the reality is: it comes down to training, and numbers. The 1,400 me-262's produced with only around 300 getting into the air is not enough, along with an uneasy conversion for even the most experienced pilots, this was a revolution in aircraft, and while the mustang was peak prop, comparing a prop to a jet is invalid
The mustang was the slowest of the four frontline prop fighters used by the west. Even still it could out dive the 262 like all the prop fighters it faced. They all could use the speed gained to catch the 262 and down it with their better weapons. The range on the .50 cal MGs was up to 2000 yards compared to 500 yards for the Mk 108 30mm cannons. The old addage the pilot who sees the enemy first has the advantage much like going back to ww1. Allied escorts wete stacked at various altitudes so there was always someone to dive on the atracking 262. And very few 262 were shot down on takeoff or landing, hell about a quater of all 262 lost were shot down by the bombers so did they follow then down to shoot them? Lots of liturature can be found on the subject so avoid falling for youtube videos by people with no clue what they are talking about.
maybe send some p51 to the ukraine SHOULD have no problem against mig 29
The Military Channel had the ME 262 in 7th place and the P-51 Mustang in 1st place.
Let me guess the top 5 were US planes because its an american channel🙄
@@kevinhood9781 There were British and Japanese as well.
Muy bue video
There is no doubt about this. The P51 wasn't even the best piston engined fighter of WW2, that goes to either the FW190 D9, or Ta 152. If you include twin engined, the DH Hornet tops them all. At over 150mph faster than anything else and with 4 30mm cannon, the 262 tops anything else, everything belonged 8n the past.
Only vastly superior numbers and the tactics it allowed gave the Allies a slim advantage.
true
Spitfire XIV and later> FW/Ta anything
The P-51 absolutely crushes any other piston engined, single engined, fighter in terms of range.
Wrong, on so many levels.
@@JohnDoe-it1vq lmao what? Your comment makes no sense. It will get it's ass kicked by both.
OFC the MUSTANG
A lot of people don’t realize that the me 262 would never work the engine had to be changed every 8 hours and German had basically no fuel left. Shitty design
Well in a perfect world yes a rather useless design but give what Germany had to work with it was rather ingenious. Two thousand pounds of thrust out of a turbine made largely from stamped mild steel is impressive when you think about it. Poor choice to take into combat but when lacking anything else you use what you can.
Fighter jets had to start somewhere I guess.
@@badmarshmallow9211 well you can't reallu say they started with the 262. It entered squadron operational service five months after the British Meteor. The Me 262 served operational for a grand total of 6 months then were scrapped. It never acomplished much during that time but a bunch of false claims which the Luftwaffe was notoriois for plus the losses of several of its own flight crews. Desperation late in the was with dwindling supplies of aviation gasoline which the BF 109 and FW190 used meant they became more reliant on Jumo 004b powered aircraft even with all their flaws. Much of the high octane gas was supplied by Standard Oil out of the US. They built a production facility out in the Canary Islands to help Germany. Ever reregistered its tanker fleet to Panama to avoid seizures. But when Fenace was finally liberated in the fall of 44 all shipment dried up. So they became more and more dependent on J2, a coal derived synthetic oil fuel like Kerosene or diesel.
Me-262
Me262
Jet Age had arrived. Too late for Germany facing US Air Superiority , in the coming months. TG.
Oh come on! This is no comparison! The Me 262 was a way better fighter than the P-51 even with the merlin engine!
The jet engines on the 262 were unreliable only 15 to 20 hours many pilots killed in accidents
@@goojedooje660 yes they did have problems, understandable as this was one of the very first jet fighters ahead of it's time. In terms of a comparison with the P-51 as a fighter though it was far superior.
All the 262 had was superior speed. It could not turn with a P-51, nor any prop fighters in the war at that time, and its armament of 30mm cannon were to slow firing with to low a velocity for actual dogfighting. It was a great bomber interceptor. Those cannons were perfect for knocking down such slow and non-maneuvering targets… Not an excellent fighter. Once isolated the Me-262 could be outlasted by the Mustang and shot-down as it tried to make it back to base…
@@mrofnocnon the Me-262 was a superb bomber interceptor. It was not a superior fighter. It did not have the range nor the proper weapons to hit a maneuvering target in a dogfight. The vast majority of kills it made on fighters were simple high speed passes accelerating away after firing. The majority of the time when a 262 pilot would attempt a turn against a fighter it would be shot down.
DCS World graphics
Me-262 couldn't turn worth a shit. It didn't have to. Keep the speed up & it calls the shots. The P-51 can certainly make a for a difficult target but in the end, if time is not a factor, the P-51 will get hit.
No. Speed has to be managed to be practical. The jet's top speed of 540 mph was nice, but it took a long time to reach those speeds and they couldn't sustain them for very long. They would have had to slow down to effectively dogfight the Mustang. Once they did, accelerating back up to a speed where they could disengage and extend away was almost impossible before the prop-driven fighter would get on the jet's tail. Once the Allied pilots figured out how to use their strengths against the jet's weaknesses, they more than held their own.
@@wanyelewis9667 : I agree. But, if the jet can sustain 450 mph or better without overheating (and I don't see why it wouldn't, even with its 50 hr. engine life), then all it has to do is big circles to line up on a Mustang. I'm sure everything was tried back then, but unreliable engines certainly are a hindrance.
@@kolbpilot the ME 262 was devastating against mass bomber formation when it could use hit and run tactics to devastating effect. Problem was if the escorting fighters were aware that the ME262 was coming it got far, far more dangerous for the jet. In Vietnam fast moving F-4 C/D and F-105 fighters found to their dismay that mainstay of the NV fighters, the much slower MIG-17F, was lethal in turning engagements under 600 mph. As the supersonic American jets had to slow down to deal with the MIGs heavy losses were suffered. Same with the P-51D.
@@kolbpilot but the Mustang pilots weren't going to just "fly in a circle" with them; they will maneuver their planes in every envelope possible, including just simply diving away as the 262 was very poor in that respect. Also, those 30mm cannons used by the Luftwaffe were vastly overrated in the dogfighting realm. With a muzzle velocity of only 1,700-1,800 fps, and the accompanying curved trajectory, it was simply not reliable against small, fast, maneuverable targets. Again, it was really most effective against bombers, which were slow & relegated to flying straight and level.
@@wanyelewis9667 : We'll have to agree to disagree. I know how I'd fly the 262 against Mustangs & I know how I'd fly Mustangs against 262's. Remember, it's not the krate, it's the man in the krate.
Coooollll
The 51 was all they had. That's the reason.