League of Dungeoneers - Review
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- LOD Playlist
• League of Dungeoneers
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Intro: 0:00 - 1:12
Overview: 1:12 - 2:30
1. (pro/con) essentially a Warhammer 95 reprint on steroids: 2:30 - 3:45
2. (con) typos and inconsisticnes: 3:45 - 6:39
3. (pro) emphasis on player progression: 6:39 - 7:39
4. (pro/con) designed for/requires a full/diverse party. Can make solo-play difficult: 7:39 - 8:24
5. (pro) Quality standees, game is "miniature agnostic": 8:24 - 9:13
6. (con/nitpick) standee holders complaints: 9:13 - 10:04
7. (pro) Bestiary is great: 10:04 - 11:32
8. (pro) Strong dungeon simulation: 11:32 - 13:29
9. (pro/con/nitpick) lack of art assets: 13:29 - 15:29
10. (pro) Loot: 15:29 - 17:07
11. (pro/con) tactical/dynamic combat: 17:07 - 18:20
12. (pro) Quantity/quality of quests: 18:20 - 20:20
Conclusion: 20:20 - 22:14
Patron Q&A: 22:14 - 30:44
Really appreciate this review and how you cover both the good and the bad. It sounds like LoD has some issues unfortunately but I'm still excited to get it to the table. It was an ambitious project and I'm happy that the community is supporting projects/games like these getting made.
Everyone should be excited for this!
I have decided to look at this as a framework for fun rather than a complete game.
Another well thought out analysis of an amazing game. Thank you.
It’s a great tool box.
Thanks. Your enthusiasm is contagious. Agreed on solo games with more than one hero. D100 Dungeeon, for instance, works for me; Four Against Darkness does not.
I like controlling 2 characters the best, so I can have a bit of balancing and using some teamwork. But it also depends on the game. Dungeon Crusade with 6 heroes in my party is super fun and easy to do.
Thank you for your review. It’s very sad to hear about all the rules mistakes and typos. That was a problem in the Print and Play version too. I have a background in English and writing. I actually reached out to Michael and offered to proof read the book free of charge. He sent me the first draft and I did a round of edits for him, but I think we both got busy and never did anything else. This is another reason that I do not agree with his decision to not sell the PDF first. A lot of this could have been avoided if backers were given early access to the PDF. Shawn Tompkin did that with Starforged and it turned out amazingly for him. Alas, I guess the eratta will have to do. Thanks again for your coverage of this game.
I'm more of a "single session" board gamer but I'm intruiged by this campaign like adventure style over months.
To me this kind of games stand or fall with the management phase. The tracking of information shouldnt be more involved than the game itself. So to those people having experience with it hear me out:
What is the appeal to you for a game like League of D. when PC games like Wartales oder Battle Brothers (Gloomhaven PC game to an extent) offer almost the exact same experience but without all the tedious setup, tracking of minute details like torches etc. ?
I mean there is no improvisation involved like in a RPG that can't be done by a computer a lot faster.
I have complete control of a board game or TTRPG. Don't like a rule? I can change it. Want to use parts from a different game? I can add them. Want to write my own stories and characters? I can. Want the game to be funny? I can make it funny. Want to be serious? I can make it serious. With video games, I am playing what someone else wants me to experience. With TT games, I am playing what I want to experience. That's the main difference. I love both. But they're two very different things.
That's what P&P RPG offers me and more. Adventure board games seem to occupy a middle ground to pc games with no strengths in comparison.
As an avid board game (mostly economic and strategy games) at least I can understand the haptic element but designers shouldnt try to compete with what a computer is capable of (means: there is a limit to complexity). Some modern heavy Euro games also Fall into that trap.
Cool!
Indeed.
Great review. It's informative to everyone involved. The designer has been engaged with the public, honest and passionate every step of the way. For a KS, what more can anyone ask for?
Yep! We’re in great hands.
I actually designed one of the quests for this game. Around 19:30, over in the top right section, I made Random Quest #15: Tower of the Troll King. If anyone has run that one, I'd love to hear more about it, I'll also answer questions if anyone has them.
Oh that’s awesome! Thanks for letter us know. :)
The errors and typos are too bad because it may put off some people. It is also why I believe that rules should be PDF or online and be living rules. Errata is fine BUT if we are going to have more than a few pages of errata, it is a PITA to refer to. I hope the expansion has a reprinting of the rulebook. I am happy to pay for updated book. I do not like those standee stands either. I have created my own 3D model for the stands that do not grip or scratch. I am just waiting to measure the standees thickness so I can print a new batch. I love the combat is dynamic as that is what I like most about Pathfinder 2e.
I know for sure that Michael will be looking into printing a new, revised rulebook for the reprint of the game, as he mentioned it to me a few weeks back when I ran into him (we live in the same town)! Until then at least we will have the PDF being up to date :)
@@ConraDargo I read his post today on the FB Group. Glad that the PDF will be updated. Right now I await the game so I can start playing.
The map for Forbidden Lands RPG looks very similar. It's also different for every group since settlements and ruins are rolled up as the group travels. I'm guessing that LoD works in a similar way. I hate traveling in role-playing games, but this approach makes it a game all by itself.
I haven’t received my copy yet, and I haven’t read the rules, but I’m thinking of an interesting simplification that I might try. I will play with two heroes and two companions but also, since I am really interested in alchemy, I will have another hero who is a scaredy cat alchemist. during combat anywhere he will hide under a rock and not participate. He will only be with the group to create potions and probably sell them to the other heroes at a discount. -Toby
Off camera support characters is the way to go. Like the thief NPC in the Dragon's Crown video game.
It seems to me like there was a weird internet debate about how to pronounce bestiary. I never found out what that debate was going on about but anyone I ever heard say it growing up would say beastiary. I've been trying to get over it but needless to say that hasn't happened yet haha.
I always pronounced it that way, with a hard 'e', too. Guess some people never heard it in the past and decided they would interpret it as is. Although many words have had letters dropped, and various changes over the ages, so that's not an ideal way to go. Not to mention strict uniform spelling wasn't really a thing until a bit over a century or century and a half ago. Before that, spelling was all over the place and often up to individual interpretation.
The proper way is BESTiary but either is fine these days.
great video, thanks!
You bet!
I just got Tanares Adventures and I find there are quite some similarities, sadly most of which I'm not looking for anymore. I'm more and more looking for effortless adventure, not game play simulation especially of old-fashioned dungeons with trope themes and endless randomization tables. But that's just me. There is a market obviously for this type of experience. Thanks for the video series and...keep on exploring!
I hear that, and totally understand.
What do you think of Tanares Adventures?? A friend got it who is somewhat local and I think I am going to give it a go with him.
I wish I knew 3 people to play this with -- I did not back the 1st print of this however. That said, perhaps 2nd print I'll be more tempted (with corrections/expansion added in?). Perhaps by then I'll make friends with 3 other RPG gamers.
You can totally play it solo, and many people will love it. I just found for me it’s best in a group.
Try on Discord, you may find a local group.
Great points and I appreciate the comparisons to other games. I know previously Darklight Memento Mori had been compared to WHQ95 and this looks to be more customizable in character progression. Is that a fair statement and what other comparisons can be made to DMM?
Great video, thank you. Your thoughts around LoD being best with 3 friends is a concern as I backed it as a solo player and am now worried I won't get the most out of it because of the amount of bookkeeping and stat/skill/ability overheads.
I'm sure Michael is frustrated and disappointed about the errors that require the errata and faq. I offered during the campaign to help with this after seeing typos in the early prototypes, as I'm sure others did as well, but I guess when you've paid 'professionals' then you'd expect to have it covered. I will not be paying more money for an up to date rulebook in any format so I hope notes will be enough.
Notes would surely be enough at this point. Though I totally respect those who want everything to be 100% correct, I would not personally buy a new rulebook. But to each their own and I will try to satisfy both factions.
Just printing out the errata will be fine.
It's perfectly playable with a party of 4 solo but you might want to think about adding some key stats to the laminated scenario sheet and also weapon damage which can be written in the "weapon " space. The aim has to be not to have to have recourse to the rules during play. Then you have to figure out how to record which characters have acted, but you can use the playing cards, coins or little cubes for that.
Nice video Daniel! … listening to your Patron Q’s… made me think of one for you. Q: Part 1, You said that LoD would be a game that could make folks who wish they had WHQ 95 satiated… the question is for you…you have time to Dungeon crawl, do you take out WHQ or LoD ? Q: Part 2, can you see pulling Out WHQ again now that LoD exists?…it seems better in just about every way.
I’d still play WHQ. I have it, I have thousands of cards for it, tons of expansions, and it’s simpler to play solo.
Ok. I can see that.
@@TheDungeonDivethank you for answering this. LoD caught my interest, but I already own a full set of WHQ (cough, all of them, actually) and am now pretty invested in the Littlemonk material too, so I’ve been wondering if I should branch out or not. I think I’ll stay in the WHQ world for now.
Great review Daniel!
(I come from 30 mins in the future so I know!) 😁
That’s a great super power! :)
The fact that you need all four makes it very hard to solo. But as a soloist I go with it. On my solo rpg sessions I never manage more than two.
Two is my sweet spot.
@@TheDungeonDivewould 2 full characters and 2 companions/mercenaries not provide enough balance? I'm hoping they do.
It can, but I think the game is best w/ 4 full heroes. That's all I'm saying - I think it's best with 4 full heroes. Everyone will have their own idea of what is best.
For solo always go for a rounded party for an RPG style game, generally 3+, though I now randomise minimum of 2 then add 0-2 more, when a member dies replace at relevant narrative point or not if fail a replacement role, with a new member at a level lower. I start at two because the combos drive the narrative that emerges from a good design.
Well that's what Companions are for, I guess, if it's hard to manage 4 full heroes...
Thanks for a comprehensive review, it was very insightful and looks to be a rewarding experience after you climbed over some hurdles
I know some people were upset that some of us on UA-cam got the game so early, but it should make for a better experience for everyone because the errata will be available with what we’ve found.
Appreciate your coverage of this. I can’t get enough.
Thanks, Daniel. Great balanced review. I’m all in on this already. Looking forward to homebrew adventures appearing out there. Also as an old school D&D player and DM it’s actually ideal to have some freedom to embellish the basic story and lore with my own elements.
If treasure cards are drawn then put right back, with no card art, I'd prefer just rolling on a chart. Cheaper to produce and easier to manage. Also, easier to expand.
The questing mechanic has some Journey's to the Overland vibes
Getting excited now…………..
Nice video of this great game ordered 😊
Interesting review. I was thinking about picking it up, but sounds like there are too many issues for my liking.
Needless to say the dungeon crawling element of this is rather tasty. The wandering monsters closing in just when you need to rest, the randomness, granularity, loot, campaigns meaty enough to enable character development to really shine, all good stuff. I reckon the closest comparison is probably Folklore, (especially with all the extras) because the base mechanics and granularity are so similar, even over say DUN, great though that system is. I would be curious however to know why Michael decided to ditch a conventional ini / speed check on encounters.
4 months later I finally get my copy. I rolled up some characters really quickly, did the opening skirmish, then realised i didn’t know what i was doing, so went back, made my usual A4 bullet point notes, and created a new team If you jettison the fugly plastic doors the core game collapses nicely into a limited space. I've now rolled a dwarven warrior priest, an elven mage, a human alchemist and a halfling thief, all with their own back stories. Of course, the first potion prepared by my alchemist opens all locks ! Can't wait to try the first dungeon crawl tomorrow. There are for sure some issues with the rules, but its very far from being a car crash. I'll probably end up with one more player aid to catch a few bits and pieces, and use the scenario sheet to jot down key stats. Using the playing card deck for ini seems slightly smoother than using the tokens. Slightly strange to be playing without a speed stat. Now i just need to get the dungeon crawl turn cycle under my belt.
Great review. I am kind of turned down by a couple of points but it surely sound more than interesting. Easy solo experience and effortless setup are two things that I am kind of looking for right now. That said, those 12 points really flesh out the whole package, really appreciated it.
As far as typos go, they just announced that they are once again adding the pdf for KS backers. I'm hoping that they update it with corrections. I prefer doing the bulk of my reading in pdf anyway.
I hope so too!
But we're being asked to pay for it which feels very unfair.
Oh it’s being updated alright! It is currently a “living document “, so Michael is constantly making changes to it - which is also why the PDF won’t be available until the physical game starts reaching us backers :)
Appreciate the review as I am unbelievably stoked for this game to arrive! This will be one of the greatest board games ever. Any chance you could do a full play through of several quests? I’ve yet to see that content released at this point. Only a play through from the creator Michael and Robs table top. Even those were brief though.
I don’t do play throughs of complex games. Not my forte. I make too many mistakes and then all people do is complain. :) it’s not fun for me.
@@TheDungeonDive that’s a bummer others decide that for you! I just joined your channel but I bet you’d be great. You’re thorough and concise, thats all any viewer should ask. Hope that’s something you consider as many would chime in!
I backed this Kickstarter and am still awaiting my package to arrive. However, from what I’ve seen of early reviews, it will not replace my preferred WHQ95 successor, Dungeon Universalis.
For me, DUN is nothing like WHQ. It lacks a random quest mode, one of the single most important parts of the WHQ experience for me. I can just take WHQ out of the box and be playing in
A few minutes. Can’t do that with DUN. But every single person has their own likes and preferences.
@@TheDungeonDive Yes that's true. The only genuine successor to WHQ95 (in terms of raw gameplay) is Shadows of Brimstone. However if you want a real, old school, bells and whistles, fantasy crawl I would go to DUN every time. Mantic's Dungeon Saga is up there too - and that's getting a reboot on Kickstarter very soon.
LOD is even more WHQ than SOB or Darklight are. LOD is a great mix of WHQ and AHQ.
@@TheDungeonDive I heard on BGG that a random quest mode is in development for DUN as an upcoming expansion.
When you were unboxing the game I got very interested in getting it but wow I've never heard of a board game with this many issues on release. I hope the next printing has all the fixes in it because I would really like to get it.
This is nothing in terms of issues. Everything is addressed in the errata and it’s totally playable. I’ve purchased many games that are practically unplayable.
Look up Sedition Wars: Battle for Alabaster. A board game with so many issues on release… and then even after the second revision of the rules which continued to have severe problems, it basically put the company out of business. There was another board game called Myth(?) or something like that which was also a total disaster. This isn’t in that ballpark; it’ll be okay.
I might not be able to provide evidence for this, but I'm pretty sure there are games with more issues, and longer erratas :) One should be very careful with words like *many* and *often* and *a lot*, because they are subjective and should not be mistaken for facts. The exact number of "many" for me is probably not the same as "many" for you.
I've been playing Bolt Action quite a lot which is a game from a very renowned company and that's been on the marked for a long time. It's a super fun game with great rules, but the Errata is 10 times the size of the Errata for LoD. Even GW has to provide Erratas and FAQs for their games. They even have a standard one, saying that if the player aid and the rulebook don't match, the rulebook is correct. What's the turnover of that company?
Oh there are, for sure!
2nd Printing crowdfund is up now. Backed!
Do you think one would need League of Duneonee if you already have games like d100 Dungeon? I feel they could hit the same spot. Even though not direclty the same genre.
Need? No. Want because they're very different? Perhaps. But only you can answer that for yourself.
It would be cool to round out this series with a compare/contrast topic by topic, point by point, of League of Dungeoneers vs Dungeon Universalis (pros vs cons vs tie/nuetral)
Stay tuned.
@@TheDungeonDive Yes!!!
@@TheDungeonDive I'd love to see that detailed comparison as well!
How deep would you say the character customization is? Like can you build a class in different ways and they actually feel different? Like for instance can you build a warrior centered around using 2 h weapons vs a warrior centered around dual wielding etc…
I ask because the depth of character customization is probably the biggest factor for me.
There is a good amount of customization.
Thanks again Daniel for continuing your excellent LoD series. Just wondering if you have any further thoughts on the initial concerns of the Dex/Wis heavy skills during character creation? Have you found the combat well balanced for characters that are traditionally more strength focused?
Not really. Just something I needed to get used to.
Cool. I’ll take that as a positive note then. After watching Michael’s own home game playthough video, one thing I did like about the strength aspect was it setting the characters encumbrance limit, and the party having to make tough decisions over what loot to keep or leave behind during the dungeon quest. (But that’s probably the sadistic DM/GM in me coming out 😈)
It’s all part of the meaningful character progression.
The thing about this is that foot work and dexterity are the foundations of combat.
A strike can be harder with strength but proper body mechanics will make it even stronger.
I love the fact it is reflected here.
That doesn’t address the fact that there are no skills based on strength. That’s the main issue.
On my table now. Looking forward to talking about it with you on the podcast in a few weeks
Yeah! Keep me posted.
Great review!! I was wondering if you could suggest a couple of alternatives for this kind of games, but with a lighter system, and suitable for a solo sand box experience.
All I cover in the channel are dungeon crawl and adventure games focusing on solo play! I’d maybe check out my recent top 10 posted as a good place to start. Or just look at the videos and see what looks interesting!
@@TheDungeonDive thanks Daniel!
Disappointed to hear about all the typos and mistakes in the rulebooks. If you pay $100 plus for a game, you shouldn't have to pay extra to get a pdf with corrections.
You don't need to buy the PDF. The errata and FAQ will be available for free. That's what I'm doing, and then just marking up the rule book.
@@TheDungeonDive Good idea! Thanks for the heads up! Can't wait to get my copy.
Typos in a fantasy setting are not an issue, especially considering spelling 'issues' between English UK and US "English". Only an issue if creates a rules issue and Michael is on top of those.
Typos and mistakes are very much a big deal.
@@TheDungeonDive Not if they are spelling or do not materially impact the rule. Obviously an incorrect value would be an issue or may instead of must.
I cant wait to get my copy but it really is a shame about all they typos and mistakes. It might have been better this time to get on the 2nd printing, since they may fix all the mistakes. I would like to add, that this does happen. My Rangers of Shadow Deep Deluxe edition has some glaring mistakes and even Starforged that was a living document to all backers has some.
I heard this game is very fiddly when it comes to survival mechanics. For example having enough food, warm clothing, etc. Did you experience that? That is a major turn off for me.
I did not experience that.
How do we get this game?
It’s being delivered from Kickstarter soon.
I was looking also and it seems that the Kickstarter is finishing its fulfillment but their kicktlstarter page has a link to sign up via email for when they will be doing a reprint.
Im interested which is the strongest emergent narrative game between this and Dungeon Universalis and why?
I'd say they both do a good job on this. LOD might be a bit better, just because it's a little more free form in the questing.
Unfortunate this is so solo unfriendly. I’m also really irked this game requires certain classes. thief characters are my least favorite to play and being pigeon holed into having one is both limiting and frustrating. Will probably just sell this when it arrives if that’s the case.
It’s all about party composition just like an RPG is.
@@TheDungeonDive of course, I understand that. I just find that when ‘typical party structure’ is required for a game, alternate classes like druids, archers, paladins etc get left out because you’re forced to fill all the party slots with the warrior/mage/priest/thief default.
One of my main characters is a fire alchemist so you can get super creative and out there. You want to think of your party composition.
I'm not very concerned about the non solo aspect, but I'm intrigued about finding a fix. For example, could you stack the deck to make it less deadly for your chosen class? I'll have to wait and see.
There's nothing to stack to make things easier / harder. You could create customer monster tables for encounters.
We could say is an rpg hybrid based on what I have seen.
Yes. I agree.
Does this allow to create a narrative campaign with rpg elements. I see it could be possible but does it offer level scaling for quest and rules to make your own quests.