Since a lot of people are asking, this is the spot welder we use and have had the most luck with: amzn.to/4a1Pwrp Any 801D, SeeSii just happen to have the best price there. It will actually do 0.25mm nickel strips while a lot of them wont (make sure it's nickel strips, ones that wont rust in a salt bath)
Next time we get an "import" battery manufacturer emailing us, I'll try to get some specs and pricing on how this all works for ordering the counterfeits. They'll build them for you with lots of options on cells including Samsung cells but they offer New or Reconditioned. Prices are obviously waaay cheaper for recon so they are building with the right cells but very likely used/reconditioned cells they took out of a "Bad" battery identified what cells still have a little juice then put them with other working recon cells (could be 2-4 years old with heavy use). You can also choose your packaging, really emphasizing they can say whatever you want. Shocking how cheap these can be if you want to order 1000+ look the part but will never last more than a few months before loosing performance, probably profitable if you don't mind being a shady counterfeiter. Really appreciate you highlighting how sketchy these batteries can be! People just try to save a few bucks but then realize you are getting ripped off!
Is it not possible they can easily buy fake wraps to put around junk Chinese cells? Far easier and cheaper to counterfeit those wraps than anything else.
Didn't destroy the tool, but back in the day, I was working with DeWalt fan boys in the nicad days. They always made fun of my toy Makita drill. One day we were climbing poles, and a guys drill died, and he asked to borrow mine and it almost snapped his wrist, he wasn't ready for it. Shortly after, DeWalt also came out with lithium ion drills, but I'll never forget that day.
In regards to the fake batteries numbers being so low, if I had to guess, the cells may be genuine but they are either used, recovered, or are factory rejects. Hence the price.
@@johncoops6897 Apologises if I upset you. In regards to the fake batteries, those numbers do not make sense on why they are so low. I have a few genuine Samsung cells that perform better than what I observed. My hypothesis is and was just guessing as to why. I really don't care that much but was thinking out loud. Thanks for the info.
I think the issue was more about the connections even with the added nickel strips. Without good spot welding on the cells themselves, resistance can be huge. Nickel is a lot more resistive than even aluminum so needs a very nice spot weld. Adding tabs on top helps for sure, but the bottleneck is still on the cell connection.
The comment from OhioPowerTool seems to back this up too - they aren't putting GOOD cells in these things, even if they look the part. The cells are the most expensive individual parts after all.
That was so fun! Thanks so much for the time and testing you put into this! I really liked those 15 Cell packs, they were crazy strong! With some very nice cells! Thanks again!
Hey thanks for building it more than once for us, and telling us to keep it around! It's a really fun pack. Let us know if you ever want it back to tinker more.
Those "Beasts" should be commercially available for those of us who are just as reckless with our tool torture. 1450... mmm amperage... I wonder what mag fluid would look like in a jar close to that motor..
The lipo tech in RC batteries are pretty crazy. and if you ever feel like making tool monsters again, you can get some absolutely ridicules ESC+motor combos to take any impact hammer to the sky :) Love all the "skunk works" videos!
I dunno why these are so fun. It has the same spirit of dropping a really hot engine on the smallest econo crap box you can get your hands off, and blasting off 9 second pass.
Nailed it and reminds me of a car I did just that to! Bought and built a 13B rotary, massive turbo... shoved it in an 1800-pound 1976 Mazda RX2, 600hp at the wheels. Dirt cheap 10 second car. Would have done 9's if it wasn't sending the tires directly to Jesus. So sad I sold it.
I love the "Dr Frankenstein" type videos you do. I have always been one to open up and spice up my tools, sound systems, cars, vacuums, basically everything. This rustles my jimmys. The "holy crap" statement made my day.
@TorqueTestChannel chances are you shorted the windings as they weren't meant for that much power and simply melted some insulation. You should take it apart and test it. The much larger driver likely has a larger motor (obviously) that can handle the increase in power, like you said maybe designed with an eye toward bigger batteries anyways. Either way it can dissipate the heat much better than the smaller driver motor can.
These rc batteries designed to dump their power asap. Got one powering my longboard and has enough strength to take off faster than I can stay on the deck.
Except for the fact that you're dumping already generated amd stored power and losing tons of power to make lesser power... sure basically a generator 🙄
@@andrewfrey6960That's really interesting. I wonder if we could see a combination of battery technologies in the future. The more typical ones we see now, and a few of these high discharge RC batteries. Either have the RC batteries "activate" after like 5 seconds and have it give a big boost to output. Could be interesting.
@@jseen9568 It would get too complicated and that would mean expensive and it's already expensive enough. There's some other things though like the tradeoff with life expectancy. Tool batteries can last years with minimum wear. Meanwhile the packs I've used in my longboard dont even hold half a charge anymore after roughly 300 charges.
13:28 "more capacity should mean less voltage drop" not when you have the same number of cells, higher capacity ones will usually have higher IR and more voltage drop. There are some exceptions ofc (like announced molicel P50B) but samsung 50S are not that powerful unfortunately. Forge has higher voltage in this test not just because of IR but because of the chemistry, lipos have different discharge curve with higher average voltage.
@@Thepornstar97 yeah, they have basically double the power output compared to 50S cells, or similar to 30T. So that pack should behave like FV 9Ah just with more capacity.
I consider any ebay listings of M12 batteries with stock photos counterfeit by default. A lot of the sellers are high volume with 99+% feedback but you'll see dozens of negatives complaining about counterfeit and defective batteries.
The power of the battery made out of RC LiPo packs doesn't surprise me in the least. When you delve down the rabbit hole and dig further into the world of battery powered RC cars seeing the power these batteries put out is crazy. The average user who don't maintain their batteries will get themselves in trouble with LiPo's very quickly. They need to be discharged if they're ever to be stored for long periods of time. :)
As an old school RCer, I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little salty that LiPos have basically killed nitro RCs lol. But holy actual hell is the performance potential just undeniable. Absolutely insane what they can do today. Also, being a gearhead/hardcore car guy/racer/etc., having this interest in what's going on in the RC space(and, for that matter, power tools too), I've had a VEEEEEEERY different perspective on EV cars compared to the average dude with a turbo LS whatever lol. Guys can talk shit about EVs all they want - a Tesla Plaid still runs 9.20s straight off the showroom floor. I'm probably not going to be in the EV market any time soon, but I'm also fully aware of just how capable they can be. Not a one-size-fits-all solution for all use cases, but they aren't going away(even governments do finally realize that you can't "encourage" people to buy a certain type of car they don't want by having automakers just make more of them).
I Love it! Really appreciate you guys testing home made cells (and making your own) along with systematically testing as well as making that data so publicly available. Since a lot of viewers rely on cordless tools now for their profession It would be great if you added a column for how long it took you to assemble the battery. I think taking this into account as a type of opportunity cost is something that is relevant when comparing prices. If you can build your own battery but it takes 2-3hours of your day then paying a premium for NameBrand might actually be worth doing. I would have said buying a counterfeit vs making your own but I similarly believe 60-80% the performance doesn’t justify 60-80% price. It’s a logarithmic scale that steeply drops off below the 90% where value plummets such that 80% performance would justify 60% cost and a 60% performance normally wouldn’t even be worth purchasing except for the occasional Light Duty applications done by inexperienced homeowners which barely even justifies the material cost & transport to produce and bring to market.
This is my happy place; the nicads died on my old brushed cordless drill years back, so I just strapped a 6 cell LiFepo4 pack ( from my r/c trucks ) to it and soldered on a suitable connector lead to the trigger- never knew how much power that little drill had in it, just needed a decent battery :D
Did similar but married a Milwaukee 8Ah to a gutless Ryobi mower. The mower is a whole different animal now! Don't think it would go well the other way around, but it could be a laugh.
haha this is kind of like when people got the new modern ryobi lithium batteries as replacements for their very old ryobi tools and they were better and more powerful than new. Old battery tech really held old tools back a lot.
TTC (and anyone wanting to play with LiPo swapped packs) LiHV cells offer all the C ratings of 'normal' LiPo cells but with a nominal voltage of 3.85v (4.35v max). DJI and others use these to eek out further capacity and performance without adding another cell. They would take a nominal pack voltage from 18 (5x3.6v) to 19.25. Combine that with 50C+ discharge...
Are you kidding me two weeks ago i look and ridgid didn't offer one are i could find it. that's the tool platform I have and had to get makita instead, so new everything ☹️
This episode was just awesome. I can't believe the power you can get out of some of these packs. Milwaukee might want to change their packaging and stickers on their batteries since I couldn't tell the fake one from the original until you pointed out the lights and weight. Unfortunately you usually only get one light lit up when new, so you can't check to see before opening the package and charging it before hand. Great job as always guys!!!!
The price tag is often the giveaway. But simply buying direct from the manufacturer rather than a third party is an easy way to make sure you get the real deal.
First time to the channel. This was very entertaining and informative! Think I'll hang around. As a mech eng with a penchant for destruction, this torture testing stuff makes for great viewing! Happy I bought genuine Milwaukee after watching this. I liked the beast battery though. High C pouch LiPos are so handy. Glad to see someone else likes to shove them in places they have no business being.
Yeah, even back in the early-mid 2010s when I got into RC, the output capabilities of LiPo pouch cells were absolutely outrageous. 5Ah 100C packs were readily available if you knew which brands wouldn't lie about their specs. I'm honestly surprised we didn't see them in tool packs a lot sooner, despite their inherent volatility. Their ability to resist voltage drop and retain rated capacity under heavy load is unmatched.
Looks like most of them are using "recon" cells which have limited discharge anyways. Seems like they need to be specifically "hopped up" like the lifepo rig in order to kill anything.
The reason the 5000mah pack was so low on the sag is because the higher you go in cell capacity, you start to lose current output, you can’t have both, lower capacities have higher discharge rates. This is due to the chemistry in lion cells. And 18650 with high capacity and a cell with low capacity will both be lithium, but the other elements that are added like kobalt for example, are what give the cell its properties, be that a high capacity, or a high discharge. . Battery university has great info on this. currently there is not a “both worlds” scenario until a new breakthrough occurs. For now we just can parallel series configurations to achieve the desired “high capacity and high output” packs.
btw the craziest part of this story is how these tools don't have some internal current or power limit, they depend on battery IR... not very smart for reliability and longevity imho but great for experiments like this :D
My testing have shown that they do. Grinder and drill reliably cut out around 150-160A even when the battery is still going strong. When I did repeated tests, that cutoff current kept coming lower, so probably temp sensor on the ESC.
@@toolscientist ok, good to know, thanks! Maybe it is just set too high then, or they just wanted to max out the peak numbers until the motor gets too hot
@riba2233 it is possible that this tool doesn't have a cutoff as they know it can't be overloaded (without something jamming the hammer). More likely it's just a failure. We'd need to see the same thing happen on 3+ tools to see if it's a real problem. I guess you could also remove the front case and make an adapter to run it in direct drive to see if it has thermal protection.
@riba2233 if you want to see it yourself, it's on [RAW 005] at 55:50. Grinder cuts out at 158A, then 140A, and then 124A with no stop signal from the battery. So definitely some sort of temp sensor.
Great video once again! It's the kind of stuff we all wish we could do but can't. Thanks! I love that you saved the drill for the end...hilarious! BTW, I hope your wrist survived better than the tool:-)
Have you tried running these tools on ~24v? Just adding another set of cells in series sorta thing. Would be interesting to see what happens overvolting the situation a bit :)
Needs some sort of ramp controller with a dial or even a solo button for cycling would be fine, but something on the batteries to control their max C output would be nice
I am also making my own Makita battery out of the 50S and after seeing “The Beans” melting the nickel, decided to do a Bosch and slap copper instead - they laser solder fat 0.3mm copper, creating lots of connection point in the process but I don’t have the tools and will sandwich spot weld 0.1 nickel on 0.1mm copper. Swapping some of these batteries to copper could improve things
Batteries prove wrapped or stamped with whatever they wanted it to say. Try maybe taking off the battery wrap and see what’s under there. I had this happen with 18650s a lot
so what I get from this is the cheap knock offs would be good for lighting applications especially for situations where battery damage is at high risk. also good for light applications of impact drivers and small drills doing light tasks, or changing your phone.
A idea for a future video could be to test aftermarket battery cases and bms for DIY batteries. I build my power tool batteries myself, but almost impossible to know which kit or bms is the best. If possible testing kits from aliexpress would be much appreciated since these products are available for us international viewers.
Man, you gave me the oh crap feels. I just checked the sequential lights on my 12ah HO's that I bought off of Amazon. Thank goodness they are sequential...
I also wonder about losses like you had with the battery adapters, low purity nickel? Are you checking the voltages to see what the knock off BMS is charging to? How well it's balancing? There's no reason those Molicells shouldn't be performing better than that if charged right.
The packaging on the fake 8.0 is different than the real 8.0s as well. The genuine batts have “blister sealing” (not sure the industry name for it) circumferentially around the pack whereas the counterfeit typically does not and has the paper glued to the plastic seal.
What messed up the drill, by the look of it, was the anti-backdrive mechanism that's needed to be able to use the keyless chuck with one hand. Can happen if you have a heavy load and let off the trigger too quickly. You can tell that's what happened because for the motor to do that to the chuck by itself you'd have had to have gone in reverse, not forward.
Impressive, I guess this shows what may be possible while sticking with a single 18v battery. Looks like a 12ah Forge battery might break some existing Milwaukee tools, wonder what they'll do about that?
Hey would you consider making a video showing all the tools you have and how you store them ? I'd be interested to see the collection you own for the channel
Reminds me of Bosch NiCd (8.4v or 9.6v, not sure - too long ago), that I modded with a 12v Lead Acid battery as a kid. While the lead Acid battery is nothing compared to modern Li-Ion, and also nothing compared to a similar sized NiCd, the Lead Acid was massive, compared to the NiCd battery, and so was the power output. Good Times.
So that drill with BEAST is basically an electric Knipex - it will either unscrew the thing or shear off the thing - 100% satisfaction, every time, guaranteed!
It's the last bit of the vid. You remove the current chuck bolt (left hand thread, use heat to overcome the Loctite). Then install the new bolt with an impact driver, in reverse direction.
Love the idea of shoving an rc battery in one of those things. 50c rating makes that 4.5kw, so I see why the voltage wouldnt drop at 700 watts. I planned on using 2 of them to power a gokart I'm building for some insane acceleration.
21700 is nice. I use a white laser flashlight for security ☄️ but that battery (Fenix) came from a sealed and verified company. And it's only 1 cell so it's extra safe.
the 15ah having a lower voltage was probably due to voltage drop in the cells you could test again and remove the load at the end of the 10 seconds to see what it recovers to comparatively to the others
Just a hint: Battery cells can be cloned too. Those supposedly Samsung cells might not be Samsung. Believe it or not but you can even buy plastic sleeves to shrink onto cells, those sleeves having convincing text already printed onto them!
The difference between the low end and high end stuff is probably $6 worth of parts and quality control but they sell for 4x the price. It's a shame, the cheap batteries I've had break are either one bad cell that ruins the whole pack or the plastic melts under load.
ASSUMING a seller or manufacturer even does any capacity testing, they "increase" the Ah rating by simply increasing the load resistance and/or decreasing the termination voltage. Changing either parameter changes the Ah one can claim for ANY given cell or battery pack. For example, if I change the load resistance from say 100 ohms to 1000 ohms (thus significantly reducing the load amps), and keep the test termination voltage the same, I can "legitimately" claim a higher Ah rating...but the customer doesn't know I fudged the test. In some cases there are "typical" parameters for setting loads for testing. Example: for Li-ion a typical Ah test usually means you discharge the cell or battery at 0.2C, so if the claimed capacity is 10 Ah, you keep the load at 0.2 x 10Ah = 2A throughout the test until it reaches the termination voltage. However, to synthetically increase the CLAIMED Ah rating you "verify" with a test, all you have to do is reduce the constant load to 1 A and the Li-ion cell WILL show an increased Ah test value...but the test didn't comply with industry practices. *_If you don't know the exact test conditions...you do not know ANYTHING about the validity of the Ah CLAIM_*
If cordless tool companies priced their batteries reasonably, there wouldn't be a deluge of counterfeit packs. The insane markup of Milwaukee packs' MSRPs is too good to pass up for people with a little skill and few scruples. Like, I _dare you_ to find a Bauer or Hercules counterfeit pack... EDIT: also the reason I stopped buying Duracell and stick to Thunderbolt Edge. The "Duraleak" reputation they have gotten might not be entirely Duracell's doing...
Since a lot of people are asking, this is the spot welder we use and have had the most luck with: amzn.to/4a1Pwrp
Any 801D, SeeSii just happen to have the best price there. It will actually do 0.25mm nickel strips while a lot of them wont (make sure it's nickel strips, ones that wont rust in a salt bath)
You gotta sandwich copper with nickel strips for the molicel battery's
Plz test the new ridgid 3/4 impact it took a nut off torqued to 2400 fo0t lbs in under 10 seconds ...try it with at least the 8ah plz plz plz!@@@@
thank you! that's bloody handy to know!
@@WHATDATTOOLDO It's the 1/2" with a 3/4" anvil. The old 1/2" Octane has a larger hammer assembly and beats it
@TorqueTestChannel ohh i didn't know that in the video it looked like a monster he torqued lugs to 2400 and it took them off
A normal person "Oh, man, this knock off battery killed my tool"
TorqueTest "But will it kill... all my tools???"
To paraphrase judge Doug Marcaida on Forged in Fire: "Your battery.... will keeeel!" 😁
Next time we get an "import" battery manufacturer emailing us, I'll try to get some specs and pricing on how this all works for ordering the counterfeits. They'll build them for you with lots of options on cells including Samsung cells but they offer New or Reconditioned. Prices are obviously waaay cheaper for recon so they are building with the right cells but very likely used/reconditioned cells they took out of a "Bad" battery identified what cells still have a little juice then put them with other working recon cells (could be 2-4 years old with heavy use). You can also choose your packaging, really emphasizing they can say whatever you want. Shocking how cheap these can be if you want to order 1000+ look the part but will never last more than a few months before loosing performance, probably profitable if you don't mind being a shady counterfeiter. Really appreciate you highlighting how sketchy these batteries can be! People just try to save a few bucks but then realize you are getting ripped off!
Hey great info! Thanks OPT. I still find them putting 6ah in an 8ah battery funny every time
Save a lil now, pay big later.
- Modern buyers
I miss old business.
Is it not possible they can easily buy fake wraps to put around junk Chinese cells? Far easier and cheaper to counterfeit those wraps than anything else.
you can even buy the fake wraps for dirt cheap from the typical 'overseas' websites @@etherealrose2139
@@etherealrose2139 Yeah, that seems a bit more likely. "Sansumg" batteries don't last as long.
God, that was hilarious watching the Beast annihilate the chuck on the cordless 😂
Had to laugh way too hard😂
That one got me roaring, absolutely friggin hilarious!
Didn't destroy the tool, but back in the day, I was working with DeWalt fan boys in the nicad days. They always made fun of my toy Makita drill. One day we were climbing poles, and a guys drill died, and he asked to borrow mine and it almost snapped his wrist, he wasn't ready for it.
Shortly after, DeWalt also came out with lithium ion drills, but I'll never forget that day.
@@lilsammywasapunkrocki
In regards to the fake batteries numbers being so low, if I had to guess, the cells may be genuine but they are either used, recovered, or are factory rejects. Hence the price.
@@johncoops6897 Apologises if I upset you. In regards to the fake batteries, those numbers do not make sense on why they are so low. I have a few genuine Samsung cells that perform better than what I observed. My hypothesis is and was just guessing as to why. I really don't care that much but was thinking out loud. Thanks for the info.
I think the issue was more about the connections even with the added nickel strips. Without good spot welding on the cells themselves, resistance can be huge. Nickel is a lot more resistive than even aluminum so needs a very nice spot weld. Adding tabs on top helps for sure, but the bottleneck is still on the cell connection.
@@amogusenjoyer makes sense
The comment from OhioPowerTool seems to back this up too - they aren't putting GOOD cells in these things, even if they look the part. The cells are the most expensive individual parts after all.
Or the cells themselves are also fakes?
increasingly sketchy bean boxes
Wait till even more house fires with all the eBikes sitting on charge.
😆😆🤣🤣
That’s the next step in sketchy bean boxes. Dual e bike battery pack backpacks
@@mr2_mike Louis Rossmann moments.
There were a lot of angry pixies wanting to get out of the beast!
That was so fun! Thanks so much for the time and testing you put into this! I really liked those 15 Cell packs, they were crazy strong! With some very nice cells! Thanks again!
Hey thanks for building it more than once for us, and telling us to keep it around! It's a really fun pack. Let us know if you ever want it back to tinker more.
@@TorqueTestChannel
Awesome! I love the fact that you did want to play around with it more. It was a really fun project and TTC testing is the best!
Those "Beasts" should be commercially available for those of us who are just as reckless with our tool torture. 1450... mmm amperage... I wonder what mag fluid would look like in a jar close to that motor..
"This little guy, is on the struggle bus out the gate" This video deserves a like for that quote alone!! 🤣
That's a shirt right there
The lipo tech in RC batteries are pretty crazy. and if you ever feel like making tool monsters again, you can get some absolutely ridicules ESC+motor combos to take any impact hammer to the sky :) Love all the "skunk works" videos!
I dunno why these are so fun. It has the same spirit of dropping a really hot engine on the smallest econo crap box you can get your hands off, and blasting off 9 second pass.
Nailed it and reminds me of a car I did just that to! Bought and built a 13B rotary, massive turbo... shoved it in an 1800-pound 1976 Mazda RX2, 600hp at the wheels. Dirt cheap 10 second car. Would have done 9's if it wasn't sending the tires directly to Jesus. So sad I sold it.
“Don’t be surprised if your tools start to unionize” 😂😂😂
I love the "Dr Frankenstein" type videos you do. I have always been one to open up and spice up my tools, sound systems, cars, vacuums, basically everything. This rustles my jimmys.
The "holy crap" statement made my day.
"What that thing needs is, MORE POWER!"
5:00 _twenty second quarter mile_ 😂
That car is a Daihatsu Mira with a factory 2 cylinder engine. I think the official quarter mile is more like 28 seconds. Trust me, I own one.
I had an old diesel station wagon that did a cool 30 something second 1/4 mile....
This might be your best video yet! 🤣 Was surprised you risked the 1" D handle after killing the other impact but it was totally worth it
Sometimes you gotta just slide all your chips onto red and see what happens
@TorqueTestChannel chances are you shorted the windings as they weren't meant for that much power and simply melted some insulation. You should take it apart and test it.
The much larger driver likely has a larger motor (obviously) that can handle the increase in power, like you said maybe designed with an eye toward bigger batteries anyways. Either way it can dissipate the heat much better than the smaller driver motor can.
@@etherealrose2139 warranty replacement lol
So our battery made it within 15 FT lb of the beast. Very nice! - Mike
I love that the Beast was completely unperturbed by the 700W load. That thing is basically a mini backup generator.
These rc batteries designed to dump their power asap. Got one powering my longboard and has enough strength to take off faster than I can stay on the deck.
Except for the fact that you're dumping already generated amd stored power and losing tons of power to make lesser power... sure basically a generator 🙄
@@etherealrose2139 hey don't Google "battery back up generator" you gonna have a bad time.
@@andrewfrey6960That's really interesting. I wonder if we could see a combination of battery technologies in the future. The more typical ones we see now, and a few of these high discharge RC batteries. Either have the RC batteries "activate" after like 5 seconds and have it give a big boost to output. Could be interesting.
@@jseen9568 It would get too complicated and that would mean expensive and it's already expensive enough.
There's some other things though like the tradeoff with life expectancy. Tool batteries can last years with minimum wear. Meanwhile the packs I've used in my longboard dont even hold half a charge anymore after roughly 300 charges.
13:28 "more capacity should mean less voltage drop" not when you have the same number of cells, higher capacity ones will usually have higher IR and more voltage drop. There are some exceptions ofc (like announced molicel P50B) but samsung 50S are not that powerful unfortunately. Forge has higher voltage in this test not just because of IR but because of the chemistry, lipos have different discharge curve with higher average voltage.
I sure wish he had tested the peak performance of the P45B pack
@@Thepornstar97 yeah, they have basically double the power output compared to 50S cells, or similar to 30T. So that pack should behave like FV 9Ah just with more capacity.
Voltage drop is linked to internal resistance not capacity. It makes sense that a hugh discharge rate cell has a lower internal resistance
I consider any ebay listings of M12 batteries with stock photos counterfeit by default. A lot of the sellers are high volume with 99+% feedback but you'll see dozens of negatives complaining about counterfeit and defective batteries.
HA !! - the descriptions of the Beast battery are timeless !! Love it ! What a cool episode guys - well done !!
The power of the battery made out of RC LiPo packs doesn't surprise me in the least. When you delve down the rabbit hole and dig further into the world of battery powered RC cars seeing the power these batteries put out is crazy. The average user who don't maintain their batteries will get themselves in trouble with LiPo's very quickly. They need to be discharged if they're ever to be stored for long periods of time. :)
As an old school RCer, I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little salty that LiPos have basically killed nitro RCs lol. But holy actual hell is the performance potential just undeniable. Absolutely insane what they can do today.
Also, being a gearhead/hardcore car guy/racer/etc., having this interest in what's going on in the RC space(and, for that matter, power tools too), I've had a VEEEEEEERY different perspective on EV cars compared to the average dude with a turbo LS whatever lol. Guys can talk shit about EVs all they want - a Tesla Plaid still runs 9.20s straight off the showroom floor. I'm probably not going to be in the EV market any time soon, but I'm also fully aware of just how capable they can be. Not a one-size-fits-all solution for all use cases, but they aren't going away(even governments do finally realize that you can't "encourage" people to buy a certain type of car they don't want by having automakers just make more of them).
I do declare, this the First Annual Built At Home Battery Showdown! !!👏🤞
Friday vids are better than Christmas Day. Great work as always guys!
I Love it! Really appreciate you guys testing home made cells (and making your own) along with systematically testing as well as making that data so publicly available.
Since a lot of viewers rely on cordless tools now for their profession It would be great if you added a column for how long it took you to assemble the battery. I think taking this into account as a type of opportunity cost is something that is relevant when comparing prices.
If you can build your own battery but it takes 2-3hours of your day then paying a premium for NameBrand might actually be worth doing. I would have said buying a counterfeit vs making your own but I similarly believe 60-80% the performance doesn’t justify 60-80% price.
It’s a logarithmic scale that steeply drops off below the 90% where value plummets such that 80% performance would justify 60% cost and a 60% performance normally wouldn’t even be worth purchasing except for the occasional Light Duty applications done by inexperienced homeowners which barely even justifies the material cost & transport to produce and bring to market.
This is my happy place; the nicads died on my old brushed cordless drill years back, so I just strapped a 6 cell LiFepo4 pack ( from my r/c trucks ) to it and soldered on a suitable connector lead to the trigger- never knew how much power that little drill had in it, just needed a decent battery :D
Did similar but married a Milwaukee 8Ah to a gutless Ryobi mower. The mower is a whole different animal now! Don't think it would go well the other way around, but it could be a laugh.
haha this is kind of like when people got the new modern ryobi lithium batteries as replacements for their very old ryobi tools and they were better and more powerful than new. Old battery tech really held old tools back a lot.
do not forget that the life of the brushed motor will decrease due to increased current
Anyway - this isn't matter for tools, which recently were old junk
Coming to a theater near you - “Torque and the Beanstack”, a story of voltage loss and RPM redemption.
I was thinking about a couple lipo packs the whole time. Glad you brought them up at the end.
TTC (and anyone wanting to play with LiPo swapped packs) LiHV cells offer all the C ratings of 'normal' LiPo cells but with a nominal voltage of 3.85v (4.35v max). DJI and others use these to eek out further capacity and performance without adding another cell. They would take a nominal pack voltage from 18 (5x3.6v) to 19.25. Combine that with 50C+ discharge...
TTC, can't wait for your to get your hands on the new 3/4 Ridgid. We'll see how much Milwaukee allowed his little brother to shine 😂
Are you kidding me two weeks ago i look and ridgid didn't offer one are i could find it. that's the tool platform I have and had to get makita instead, so new everything ☹️
The Makita has the beans too, i wouldn't doubt that purchase. If you got the receipt and box maybe it'll work out.@@danielsmith-ze3wy
This episode was just awesome. I can't believe the power you can get out of some of these packs. Milwaukee might want to change their packaging and stickers on their batteries since I couldn't tell the fake one from the original until you pointed out the lights and weight. Unfortunately you usually only get one light lit up when new, so you can't check to see before opening the package and charging it before hand. Great job as always guys!!!!
The price tag is often the giveaway. But simply buying direct from the manufacturer rather than a third party is an easy way to make sure you get the real deal.
Very interesting, funny to think each tool must have a sweet spot between supplying it enough juice and snapping it in half.
I just tested a cheapo Seesi impact from Amazon and was actually amazed at how quick it zipped the lug nuts off of a 20yo Camry. Really surprised me.
I love this. "how much power can these tools actually handle"
First time to the channel. This was very entertaining and informative! Think I'll hang around. As a mech eng with a penchant for destruction, this torture testing stuff makes for great viewing! Happy I bought genuine Milwaukee after watching this. I liked the beast battery though. High C pouch LiPos are so handy. Glad to see someone else likes to shove them in places they have no business being.
Wow. I bought a forge for my track saw. Noticed a big improvement over the HD6.0 it came with.
I freaking love the Beast! This kind of insanity is why I show up.
Yeah, even back in the early-mid 2010s when I got into RC, the output capabilities of LiPo pouch cells were absolutely outrageous. 5Ah 100C packs were readily available if you knew which brands wouldn't lie about their specs. I'm honestly surprised we didn't see them in tool packs a lot sooner, despite their inherent volatility. Their ability to resist voltage drop and retain rated capacity under heavy load is unmatched.
BEAST MODE 2.0 - I will await the second video
Side note, OSHA does not permit the use of counterfeit batteries. FYI
there is also a difference between counterfeit and third party, FYI
@@darkfur18 neither are approved
Neither do they permit turning up drunk but don’t stop us
Shhhh everyone quite and get to work, OSHA is in the chat.
@@Endidixknsej i mean, the boss man knew what he was getting when i pulled up in a ram superduty.
What a hoot! That was intense. RIP your tools but all in the name of science. Hope you are all famous now, you deserve it all.
I always worry about the aftermarket battery cause I worry without the current control to protect the tool and batteries
Looks like most of them are using "recon" cells which have limited discharge anyways. Seems like they need to be specifically "hopped up" like the lifepo rig in order to kill anything.
The reason the 5000mah pack was so low on the sag is because the higher you go in cell capacity, you start to lose current output, you can’t have both, lower capacities have higher discharge rates. This is due to the chemistry in lion cells. And 18650 with high capacity and a cell with low capacity will both be lithium, but the other elements that are added like kobalt for example, are what give the cell its properties, be that a high capacity, or a high discharge. . Battery university has great info on this. currently there is not a “both worlds” scenario until a new breakthrough occurs. For now we just can parallel series configurations to achieve the desired “high capacity and high output” packs.
Great vid. Did you fix that Milwaukee drill with a makita???? 🤔
16:14. I'm calling it the Pissed-off-topus.
btw the craziest part of this story is how these tools don't have some internal current or power limit, they depend on battery IR... not very smart for reliability and longevity imho but great for experiments like this :D
My testing have shown that they do. Grinder and drill reliably cut out around 150-160A even when the battery is still going strong. When I did repeated tests, that cutoff current kept coming lower, so probably temp sensor on the ESC.
@@toolscientist ok, good to know, thanks! Maybe it is just set too high then, or they just wanted to max out the peak numbers until the motor gets too hot
@riba2233 it is possible that this tool doesn't have a cutoff as they know it can't be overloaded (without something jamming the hammer). More likely it's just a failure. We'd need to see the same thing happen on 3+ tools to see if it's a real problem. I guess you could also remove the front case and make an adapter to run it in direct drive to see if it has thermal protection.
@riba2233 if you want to see it yourself, it's on [RAW 005] at 55:50. Grinder cuts out at 158A, then 140A, and then 124A with no stop signal from the battery. So definitely some sort of temp sensor.
i know for a fact the Milwaukee die grinder has a woefully low safety limit. any torque and it shuts straight off
Great video once again! It's the kind of stuff we all wish we could do but can't. Thanks! I love that you saved the drill for the end...hilarious! BTW, I hope your wrist survived better than the tool:-)
You guys are what Consumer Reports used to be.
Have you tried running these tools on ~24v? Just adding another set of cells in series sorta thing. Would be interesting to see what happens overvolting the situation a bit :)
Here ya go: ua-cam.com/video/vHVuF8YvCu0/v-deo.html
@@TorqueTestChannel How did I miss this!?
@@SomeGuysGaragenot sure. If you're subbed with notifications on you won't miss a thing.. just saying. Don't worry TTC I got your back.haha
This was a fun episode! 🤣 Thanks for the entertainment!!!
I get worried about my RC car lipos blowing up and here yall go. Protek Lipos are my go too
I always love videos that go "Normal testing, normal testing, normal testing- _UNHINGED LUNACY_"
Damn the identical m18 battery from amazon really has me questioning some of my purchases thinking i got a good deal
"My garage has inexplicably burned down there times now, but with these batteries, I've been able to rebuild it in a single day every time! "
Needs some sort of ramp controller with a dial or even a solo button for cycling would be fine, but something on the batteries to control their max C output would be nice
I am also making my own Makita battery out of the 50S and after seeing “The Beans” melting the nickel, decided to do a Bosch and slap copper instead - they laser solder fat 0.3mm copper, creating lots of connection point in the process but I don’t have the tools and will sandwich spot weld 0.1 nickel on 0.1mm copper.
Swapping some of these batteries to copper could improve things
Would love to see how the Milwaukee performs with new Forge batteries vs the older High Output line!
I love the Tacoma tailgate guest appearance
He said "well heck, send em on over " 😅😂👍
Batteries prove wrapped or stamped with whatever they wanted it to say. Try maybe taking off the battery wrap and see what’s under there. I had this happen with 18650s a lot
I'd love to see @Tronicsfix try and repair some of the boards you've cooked.
TTC is by far the best channel on YT.
so what I get from this is the cheap knock offs would be good for lighting applications especially for situations where battery damage is at high risk. also good for light applications of impact drivers and small drills doing light tasks, or changing your phone.
The forge 12ah will be the tabless cell design, not pouch, but it’ll output even more than the 6.0 pouch I bet.
Can we add a measurement category for entry level DIY cheap cordless drills too, branded and unbranded 12V, 18V category
"Pissed-off octopus looking thing" 🙂
Y’all are awesome and I love it!!!! Please keep it coming and I’ll keep watching!!!!!
To paraphrase many of our greats in history.. “Just because we can do a thing, does not necessarily mean we should do that thing”
I just upgraded my son's power wheels to run on Milwaukee M18 batteries lol. It cruises now, can drift and do burnouts
A idea for a future video could be to test aftermarket battery cases and bms for DIY batteries. I build my power tool batteries myself, but almost impossible to know which kit or bms is the best. If possible testing kits from aliexpress would be much appreciated since these products are available for us international viewers.
dude this channel is seriously underrated. love your content bro keep it up
Don't be surprised if your tools start to unionize on you lmao 🤣😂😂 loved the vid and all the one liners!!
Nice! Surely you could have "ballparked" the Beasts cost estimate?
Man, you gave me the oh crap feels. I just checked the sequential lights on my 12ah HO's that I bought off of Amazon. Thank goodness they are sequential...
I also wonder about losses like you had with the battery adapters, low purity nickel? Are you checking the voltages to see what the knock off BMS is charging to? How well it's balancing? There's no reason those Molicells shouldn't be performing better than that if charged right.
One of the days you're going to come across a real,full of spicy beans Frankenstein battery pack that you can honestly say "It's Alive"
Use graphite based batteries for a better discharge rate. I've had good luck with turning graphine
The packaging on the fake 8.0 is different than the real 8.0s as well. The genuine batts have “blister sealing” (not sure the industry name for it) circumferentially around the pack whereas the counterfeit typically does not and has the paper glued to the plastic seal.
I watch every Friday and this was the best video yet
Summit has there own battery impact now 70 beans only tool. Though might be worth looking into
What messed up the drill, by the look of it, was the anti-backdrive mechanism that's needed to be able to use the keyless chuck with one hand. Can happen if you have a heavy load and let off the trigger too quickly. You can tell that's what happened because for the motor to do that to the chuck by itself you'd have had to have gone in reverse, not forward.
Impressive, I guess this shows what may be possible while sticking with a single 18v battery.
Looks like a 12ah Forge battery might break some existing Milwaukee tools, wonder what they'll do about that?
I was laughing so hard, I had to sit down during the final drill test. Hahahahahaha
Edit: the outro recommendations are funny too.
A normal person "Oh, man, this knock off battery killed my tool"
TorqueTest "But will it kill... all my tools???"
#1
Please review more of the electric screw driver and also power scrubber.
Love your videos ❤
I've seen 'new' m12 2.5ah batteries and 20v dewalt powerstacks for over half off on amazon recently. Now I feel unsure to buy them😅
Hey would you consider making a video showing all the tools you have and how you store them ? I'd be interested to see the collection you own for the channel
Always helps to switch to something stupider in the pursuit of voiding warranties with crazy amounts of power.
Reminds me of Bosch NiCd (8.4v or 9.6v, not sure - too long ago), that I modded with a 12v Lead Acid battery as a kid. While the lead Acid battery is nothing compared to modern Li-Ion, and also nothing compared to a similar sized NiCd, the Lead Acid was massive, compared to the NiCd battery, and so was the power output. Good Times.
So that drill with BEAST is basically an electric Knipex - it will either unscrew the thing or shear off the thing - 100% satisfaction, every time, guaranteed!
What's the name of that battery powered spot welder??? That look handy
! IT would be nice if we could see the Video on how to fix the drill!
It's the last bit of the vid. You remove the current chuck bolt (left hand thread, use heat to overcome the Loctite). Then install the new bolt with an impact driver, in reverse direction.
Love the idea of shoving an rc battery in one of those things. 50c rating makes that 4.5kw, so I see why the voltage wouldnt drop at 700 watts. I planned on using 2 of them to power a gokart I'm building for some insane acceleration.
The new knockoff battery indicator lights work as they are supposed to, just an fyi
I love lipo, they let the juice flow! they are much more stable nowadays than they used to be.
21700 is nice. I use a white laser flashlight for security ☄️ but that battery (Fenix) came from a sealed and verified company. And it's only 1 cell so it's extra safe.
the 15ah having a lower voltage was probably due to voltage drop in the cells you could test again and remove the load at the end of the 10 seconds to see what it recovers to comparatively to the others
Just a hint: Battery cells can be cloned too. Those supposedly Samsung cells might not be Samsung. Believe it or not but you can even buy plastic sleeves to shrink onto cells, those sleeves having convincing text already printed onto them!
The difference between the low end and high end stuff is probably $6 worth of parts and quality control but they sell for 4x the price. It's a shame, the cheap batteries I've had break are either one bad cell that ruins the whole pack or the plastic melts under load.
Can you test some Neuron Hilti ? We use a lot at work and keen to see a comparison !
Love the content!
ASSUMING a seller or manufacturer even does any capacity testing, they "increase" the Ah rating by simply increasing the load resistance and/or decreasing the termination voltage. Changing either parameter changes the Ah one can claim for ANY given cell or battery pack. For example, if I change the load resistance from say 100 ohms to 1000 ohms (thus significantly reducing the load amps), and keep the test termination voltage the same, I can "legitimately" claim a higher Ah rating...but the customer doesn't know I fudged the test. In some cases there are "typical" parameters for setting loads for testing.
Example: for Li-ion a typical Ah test usually means you discharge the cell or battery at 0.2C, so if the claimed capacity is 10 Ah, you keep the load at 0.2 x 10Ah = 2A throughout the test until it reaches the termination voltage. However, to synthetically increase the CLAIMED Ah rating you "verify" with a test, all you have to do is reduce the constant load to 1 A and the Li-ion cell WILL show an increased Ah test value...but the test didn't comply with industry practices.
*_If you don't know the exact test conditions...you do not know ANYTHING about the validity of the Ah CLAIM_*
If cordless tool companies priced their batteries reasonably, there wouldn't be a deluge of counterfeit packs. The insane markup of Milwaukee packs' MSRPs is too good to pass up for people with a little skill and few scruples.
Like, I _dare you_ to find a Bauer or Hercules counterfeit pack...
EDIT: also the reason I stopped buying Duracell and stick to Thunderbolt Edge. The "Duraleak" reputation they have gotten might not be entirely Duracell's doing...