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Hello. As you are someone really familiarized to indentify McDojos, I would like to ask you something. I once had a "muay thai" master that actually just had black belt for Taekondo. He said he teached how to kick, punch, use elbows, use knees; and that Muay Thai, Taekondo, Full Contact, Kung Fu are all "the same shit". He said he used to change the name of the martial art of his gym depending on which one was more in the media to attrack more students. He actually teached well how to box and to kick (I believe). We used to train sparring, on punching bags, boxing pads and those "mini shields" intructors hold (don't know the name in english lol). he claimed to have professional fights, although I could never find his record. Other instructors I trained with afterwards said I had a good base. Was that a McDojo?
@@tiocroc4814 yes. I am an mma teacher with a Bjj Blackbelt. And a Kenpo blackbelt(cause I was a dumb kid once) I also teach kickboxing and won an amateur belt in kickboxing. I was 13-5 pro in mma & have had several students in the ufc. I call my striking class kickboxing. Not MT. Cause it’s NOT MT. Thai is a very specific thing and only a hack wouldn’t know that. I would not insult the local MT krus by suggesting that I am qualified to teach MT as I am not. I never fought under pro MT rules and my students don’t. We don’t do a wai kru we don’t circle the ropes in the cage we don’t wear the head thing. I teach striking mostly for mma. That’s very different than thai. Your instructor was w liar AND a fraud. I don’t care how well he taught a knee. Guys come to my bjj class all the time and say “I’m a brown belt in nogi” cause some local hole gyn said they are.’ I say “a brown belt in nogi bjj is called a white belt.” I ask who gave it to them and it’s unusually an mma type gym that doesn’t do gi and the instructors are not registered bjj blackbelts and cannot give belts in jack shit. Most had no idea. Some come in with a belt to gi class and I ask them who gave them it ans they are not real blackbelts and so I say they wear white. This is not me saying this. Not my opinion, it’s a fact. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a specific thing. To get a blackbelt u need meet many criteria in addiction to be signed off on by registered Blackbelts. U must pass a background check, cpr course and etc etc. I must verify my students got belts certain dates snd send the IBJJF pictures of them and verify the competition record. I assure u John jones can tap me. It does not make him a bjj blackbelt. And I assure u he can beat most MT krus in a thai match but John is not qualified to teach MT. Lately I’ve watched many local karate schools and kung fu ones give their teen age students blacks belts in mma. I love sending these blackbelts in mma the info that their teacher never fought mma. They’ve never cornered mma. And mma is a SPORT. If I have never wrestled or coach wrestling I am not a wrestler if I know how to change level. A cardio boxing coach who’s never trained an actual boxer is not a boxing trainer. He is a cardio boxing trainer
@@ransakreject5221 we are going to disagree slightly with 2 things. 1) I don’t believe they have to be on tapology to be considered legit. 2) 10th planet blackbelts are blackbelts in No-Gi Jiujitsu. But this was just stating my opinion for conversation not argument
"Cult like behavior" is a really tricky one. There's a very fine line between a "family atmosphere" which has extremely positive connotations and a cult which has extremely negative connotations. Things like gym loyalty and following arbitrary customs are aspects of both.
Family atmosphere would be like miyagi do type stuff. And cult would be like cobra Kai stuff. Sorry it’s a reference from a show but maybe it’s an idea
One of them I saw (and still in business) is “secret techniques that you’re not allowed to discuss with anyone”. No deprivation or even a money grab…. But everything is either based off of UA-cam or outright lying
Watched this video when it first came out to make sure I wasn't joining a McDojo - I had no prior martial arts experience so I had no idea how to judge. It was great advice and knowing that I had joined a legit school made me train extra hard, sometimes 3 or even 4 classes a week. Psyched for my black belt test next week!
I once had to move away from one of my traditional Hung Gar teachers. He spent about three hours telling me what to look for, what to avoid, and even where to find a new teacher. Number one was "if they can't back up their credentials or they won't let you sit in on a class, run, don't walk away." He also told me what to look for in forms, like whether something really makes senses as a sword form, etc. His advice has kept me in legit martial arts since. Thanks Rob for taking the time to put this video together. You are doing an incredible and valuable service to all legit martial artists (and not just in the West!). Thanks.
@@silverfox8801 mhm…. I don’t remember hung gar = 5 animals, but if so, then I do know that you cannot say which animal is best, they are all important to the style, it’s just like asking “are submissions, transitions, or controls the best part of BJJ?”
The specificity of the McDLife definition makes it far more helpful than the other popular definitions out there. But the equally important lesson that bears repeating is that when folks actively mislabel real dojos as 'McDojos' because they think their own style is best or whatever, these people are engaging in McDojo-like behaviour themselves. Do your MA thing; let others' do theirs.
A naive woman opened a gym in our little town. Having been a gym member my entire adult life, I told her that 87% of people who start going to a gym are no longer going after a year. Gyms make money by signing people to 1 year contracts and collecting those monthly fees long after they have quit coming. She said that would not be necessary in our little town. After about a year, she starting doing 1 year memberships (paid with a credit card or bank draft) and instituted a more costly month-to-month program. She never said anything to me about what I had told her.
Well, seems i am one of those unworthy and incompetent martial arts teacher..... My fees are low, il don't bind, i encourage people to look into other dojos, and yeah, aikido is not vert popular anyway and i have only (?) 4 regular people who allways come back and my aikido teaching cost me money , but if won't change.... Believing to do what i perceive as right is what drives me...
@@brunoboettcher8921 I pay €200 up front, which covers a full year; most member pay in full in September - which make budgeting easier and it's still comes down cheaper than most martial arts clubs, even if you only stick around 4 months. Our Dojo has a 45 year old history. The original founder never made a dime off karate; so it's one of our core tenants that every instructor works on a voluntary basis. Doesn't mean that we're strictly against making money from teaching karate, it's just tradition and philosophy of our club.
I attended a karate school for about a year when I was in sixth grade. A few month into it, I realized the instructor was less interested in teaching and more interested in collecting the monthly payment. When we were about due to renew the one-year contract, he brought my parents into the workout area and had me perform a kata. I purposely screwed up a few moves to see if he would say anything. Of course, he told my parents I was doing great and really making progress. I told them later that the place was a scam and I wasn't going back.
I was prohibited from training at other studios and even competing in open tournaments by my first instructor. At my own studio, I don't prevent anybody from cross training elsewhere or competing where they want. If there's a skillset they want that I can't teach them, I'll encourage them to learn it and even recommend other studios that offer it.
@@thatoneguybones8036 That's the sad part of some martial arts studios and their head instructors. There's some weird attempt at ownership of their students and a need to assert control over their decisions. These tend to be the same instructors that don't let you ask questions and won't spar their students. It's an ego thing, I think. You should always be able to ask your instructor questions. They should also be open to sparring with their students. It's a good confidence builder for new students, allows the instructor to demonstrate their control and it keeps their skillset intact.
Yep big red flag not letting people go elsewhere. If people want a skill they don't offer, bring it or let then learn it. My current gym is a big competition focused bjj and judo gym and since I am always at open mat on Thursday with a strong wrestling backround and my old wrestling coach is a student there. They gave us permission to run wrestling practice on Thursdays and it is the most popular class for the bjj competitors.
I believe you make a confusion between "McDojo" and "Bullshido". The origin of the term McDojo is definitely linked to the "making money" and "conveyor belt" of belts. I remember the old days of 2000s when both terms appeared on the interwebs, and McDojo is for sure a term that refers to "giving belts in exchange for money". Great channel btw, love your content.
I agree. We say McDojo to mean "1 billion black belts served." The idea of just getting new people in and rushing them through ranks without worrying about quality and consistency, while potentially opening multiple locations to keep expanding.
I second this, in m'y understanding a McDojo is a school where, like a fast food, you pay for bad instruction to get (fake or at least useless) belt diplomas, which is allready wrong enough! Without taking into account all the puking rest i associate with bullshido and other "arts" of mindfucking.....
The dojang i went too for ten years slowly grew into something more like a mcdojo over the years. One of the more serious instructors left to start his own school, and the quality of learning went down and the placed turned into a glorified daycare by the time I stopped attending because going felt like a chore and I had just started college so I didn't have as much time.
Hi, Rob, and thank you for yet another superb breakdown! I believe that since the "awareness" of sub-standard practices within the martial arts industry has been evolving for the last decade or so - people are often (too) rushing to get "onto the train" to bash different schools and calling out "McDojos". However - I believe that your definition is a great one. Simple rules, simple definitions. Now - my only experience with martial arts is that I've been taking and also training boxing/boxers for like 20 years, and then now - started taking it again (I am now 46) after 8 years of not training at all. My daughter - who has a mental dissability and autism - takes Taekwondo. All of a sudden, the local Karate club members started to call her taekwondo school a McDojo, which I believe is utter bullshit. She goes there to train. She gains balance, strength and greater self esteem and self reliance. Sure - she will not be a "fighter", but the reasons to train are not also to be a fighter in the first place. She does it because it helps her. And she does it because she think it's fun (she has now - in four years - become a green belt. Stuff takes a little longer for her, from her disabilities). Sorry for my somewhat lacking English - I'm from Sweden.
I've always had issues with "we are better than others" crap. Martial arts should be open to everyone and it can never be wrong to let someone with a disability train and get belts. A belt is as much of an indication of you commitment as it it is a testimony of what you have mastered. Those karate assholes are the the ones who are wrong (directed to the person's in question and not karate as a system) how can they be so small minded that they start to bad mouth a place that allows people to better themselves. All that matters is that your daughter enjoys her training and gets some exercise.
That's awesome that it's called lissajous-do. I've never heard of the discipline but I'm a mathematician and I'm familiar with the curves I assume it's named after, appropriately.
Deep respect for you , I've encountered a few McDojo's in my local city and warn others off. Luckily I've stuck with a good kickboxing, ju-jitsu and BJJ gym and train there. I've started the road to assistant ju-jitsu instructor, we have a national governing body which is nationally and internationally recognised and has tough inspection. Even as a volunteer on the mat I have to have an enhanced DBS check (criminal records check), I welcome these standards and at all the kids classes we actively welcome all parents to attend and sit in the viewing area. I am suspicious of 'closed' groups and organisations. Oss
@@hardcaliber19 The ones I'm most familiar with are WAKO for kickboxing, UKBJJA for BJJ and BJJA for ju-jitsu, most governing bodies have links to Sport England I believe
Thank you so much for this video! I have been following your channel for some time and this video really hit me. I have been running my martial art schools for over 15 years and have been called a mcdojo. I am profiting from it and have lots of students. I definitely feel like I do my best to be honest and upfront about the service I offer and I sincerely want to better the lives of my students. Many videos online seem to criticize those who make money and work to get people to black belt. My fellow martial art school owners in my area even tell their potential clients that I am a mcdojo because of my fees and contracts (I do have 30 day notice clauses btw). It is hard not to have doubt because of all the things people may say online or locally. Thank you for pointing out that running a business and trying to make a good living doesn’t make you a mcdojo, but practices that are not in the best interests of students and only to gratify the instructor’s own selfish agenda are. This video was an inspiration to me and something I really needed to hear. Thank you 🙏
Having never done martial arts in my life and recently starting BJJ as a newbie white belt spazz, finding out about mcDojos blows my mind! We definitely have a few here in the U.K. but my SO calls it ‘pay to play’ which he means you pay for your grading so you get given the belt instead of actually earning it when you’re ready.
Im lucky to live in Brazil, here mcdojos are pretty rare and weak in business. I've trained with great masters at shotokan karate, boxing and muay thai (all the greatest legends are from my city, Curitiba, and I've met and trained with many of them).
Totally agree with your comments. At our karate club we always try to improve ourselves and build up our students in a positive way. Me and the other instructors constantly research, question each other and welcome our students to question us with what we are teaching them. I believe I’m there to pass on my knowledge of the martial art I’m passionate about. It’s not about being the best, it’s about being better than you where yesterday, that goes for me as well as my students!
On my first training camp in Indonesia, we had a journalist/silat instructor teach a seminar on the different ways that people would try to con us with tenaga dalam. That was a very useful class. Also, we didn't throw rocks at each other. Overall, a positive experience.
You need to compile a Top 10 list of "You might be a McDojo if..." Like, if you're sensei can knock people out from across the room by waving his jazz hands, you might be a McDojo. Or, if your sensei doesn't wear a black belt because they don't come in obese bastard size, you might be a McDojo.
Thats the first time I heard about your martial arts experience...And let me tell you...You are bad ass!! Respect for your understatement and what you actually do good for martial arts. Keep it up.
If only you had been around back when I got into the Bujinkan here in Tucson, AZ. I could have saved myself some really hard life lessons. The dojo I trained in basically hit all five of your things to look out for (you feature the douche I trained under often). I appreciate the work you've been doing to protect people, especially kids (parents should definitely watch this so they can scrutinize dojos they want too sign their kids up for)!
One of the the schools I attended was not a McDojo, but was McDojo adjacent...or McDojo-ish. I realized that he had a drug/alcohol problem going into my third year with him. He would ask for fees in advance to pay a bill or cover some odd situation. He was legit, all the name brand schools knew who he was and the lineage he came from White lotus style. The stuff he taught got me out of few jams...but hey we live an learn.
Just started watching ur vids and it took this vid to have me subscribe. This is because of you talking about ur background and being humble about it. I really like how you read the articles of what a McDojo is and then addressed your opposing views. Very insightful. Thank you.
Glad I watched this vid Rob. I finally worked up the courage to go to a "Kickboxing class" and like you mentioned in the video it was much more of a cardio/stations type setup. You were just told to do whatever at each station with very little instruction on proper technique or anything to do with actual kickboxing. I always thought it seemed odd but I thought "maybe I'm just being a dick and expecting too much". Good to know I wasn't wrong and thatvI only went to a few sessions. Thanks! @mcdojolife
I feel like there are two types of "kickboxing" cardio and competitive. Cardio is more of a fitness class and Competitive is more competition kickboxing with live sparring and such. As long as the studio/gym is open as to which type it is there isn't a problem.
As Joe off the street who doesn't know much about martial arts I appreciate this list. It's good to know what dojos to avoid. My red flags are too many black belts, kids with adult black belts and talk about some "ultimate" or "forbidden unstoppable techniques" only available to "advanced" students.
I agree with the points presented. Effectiveness of a martial art in a streetfight does not automatically decide which dojo is a mcdojo, unless it is wrongly marketed to attract students.
I used to train in a small group where the lead guy was… quite bizarre. He had these ”codes” such as, he didn’t teach you things because he wanted to have an upper hand on you in sparring etc. And believed that the ”student” should never surpass the ”teacher”. Wierd stuff all together. Now he’s a LEO and a self defense intructor in 2-3 arts. Haha! I remember one time we were kickboxing and I was dominating him (I was training muay thai at the time) and he got so upset that he double legged me and took side control and started to arm bar me or something. Everyone just stood there with their mouths open in disbelief. That was the last time I trained in that group. 😄
This is fantastic. I’d love to learn more traditional Kung fu (I know some but not much) not for any self-defense or combat but because it’s beautiful and I’d just love to learn it.
More traditional kung fu would actually be for combat, if you’re into the beautiful shit, do modern kung fu/wushu. Chinese martial arts as a community and thing has honestly given up on trying to revive itself as a combat practice. And you having to disclaimer your interest with “not for defense it just looks cool” is more unfortunate byproducts of that.
Thank you for you're videos! I have been practicing martial arts for about 10 years and have always had some doubts about the lineage I learned from(Shaolin-Do). I was fortunate to be part of the black sheep school that was very focused on what you were saying about reasons people join martial arts. The reasons of, social interactions, losing weight, etc. It's refreshing to hear your explanations and I hope more people watch your videos so they can learn and understand martial arts better.
Another extra fee example for you from the gym where I got my purple belt. They would advertise a well known Black Belt as an instructor, but he only normally taught on Tuesday during like a 10 AM day class when most folks were working. When he did teach during the time slot for a regularly scheduled Saturday class, they would charge an additional fee, and call it a seminar even though there was no regular Saturday class available to attend. You had to pay the fee to attend or leave and they enforced that. In other words, they would charge again for the Saturday you thought you already paid for, in order to get training from the instructor that you thought was already included in the classes that you already paid for. Since I left the same school demands you use only their GIs and will be aggressive to you as well if you cross-train somewhere else too.
First of all, congrats on tackling this issue. In the past I had taken many free classes at different schools only to find out quite quickly that there were "issues" with the teachers or their methods. Also, thanks for being specific in what a McDojo means. I studied Martial arts for about 4 years before creating my own system (Not style) so that I could continue to study on my own. I carefully avoided anything that would discredit what I was trying to accomplish. I called my system Wei Tai Jutsu. I was always honest with students about my background and my fight records. I never taught children. I never charged any students because I loved to learn and didn't want it to become a job. I have only recently put out a couple of videos that talk about Wei Tai Jutsu just because I'm 50 years old and have been practicing it for 30 years. It has done me a lot of good so why not share it. I have always felt that Martial arts training is a very personal journey and often a spiritual one. With the introduction of MMA I feared we were losing the more meaningful parts of that journey but now I see many people trying to bring that back. Anyway, thank you for what you do and keep up the good work. Alex
Verry good video! Thank you. Could not have put it better! I would label my school as semi combat effective. Main focus however is self development and having fun with friends.
Brilliant list! Thank you. I have been a part of Fu Jow Pai Kung Fu for over 27 years and feel very lucky to have had a Sifu of great integrity and skill but not business skill. He kept his school running because of his honesty and trustworthiness but struggled financially because he didn’t want to be seen as a Mcdojo. He sadly passed in 2017. This video makes me appreciate him more.
Waaay back in the day when I first heard the term McDojo, it was more along the lines of the last definition. It was a reference to “fast food” dojos where the instructor was greedy and teaching garbage and quickly handing out black belts to people who clearly didn’t deserve black belts. So it was just a term that meant that you studied at a place that should not have given you a black belt because you’re no good.
Issue with that is it’s a bit subjective and at the end of the day most gyms/instructors will have different versions of what good is. I tried to keep it to the important issues.
Seeing this video? I think you might want to look into the Blood and Iron HEMA club out on the West Coast. Because they, especially Lee Smith, hit up points 2 and 3 in a textbook fashion.
When I was looking for a martial arts school for my kids I called ahead first and asked lots of questions and I also asked for references. Who they learned from and where and then I contacted them. Fortunately, for me both the school and instructor were still around and could vouch for the martial arts school.
a big thing that gets me are empty promises. "will help improve grades" but they dont offer anything that to do so. such as an study program or anything. if they promise something they should have a tool in place to facilitate those ends
i LOVE my TKD teacher and classes, i live in upstate NY and the place i go is Master Kim's Tae Kwan Do. from a smaller kid to a 37 year old man with a BIG break in between and i recently started again and i LOVE it. i would love for you to ck the studio out might be a good video for a good school, a non McDojo
I watched mine rurn into a Mcdojo. We got a bunch of local TV personalities and their friends, kids in. It was too hard for them. Started pushing for this 'New' Taekwondo. Grandmaster addressed the issue, factions were built in the membership with the Karens(our newest members) pushing the hardest. Yeah. The school is closed. I watched a 'Master' cry after not breaking a board during her 5th Level exam. It sucks but people generally don't want to learn the Martial Arts, they want an experience that makes them feel important. Is what it is.
I go to an ATA school (Which is highly labeled as a McDojo) but the school I go to doesn't fit ANY of the criteria I've seen online or talking to other people about what a McDojo is other than maybe the patches on the uniforms (which aren't required by my instructor at least) and the fact that music is played during class. Plus, my instructor openly encourages you to learn more, even if it's outside of what was taught at his school. It really just depends on the school in my opinion, and unfortunately there are a crap ton of McDojo's to get tricked by. I even was tricked by one when I was younger, and I've used my experiences with that school to make sure I wasn't tricked again looking for another school to train at
Awesome job Rob for not just jumping right to your rules for a McDojo. I totally agree that making money, quick belt progression, or the style/practicality itself don't make a McDojo. I think I separate a McDojo (the location and business) from Bullshido (an individual or that individual's style). So when I think of a McDojo I think mostly of rule 5 (shady business practices) l. To me the other rules call out, accurately, Bullshido. And as I stated in a previous comment, pedophilia is wrong no matter what. It doesn't matter what form or subcategory it takes. So for me it's not a McDojo rule but a rule in general.
I honestly don't understand the logic of what Xu Xiaodong claims to be doing. Seriously, I get that he is having MMA matches (for the most part) with Kung Fu "masters" in China and he is winning. Good for him! Does losing a match mean that what they know is garbage? If Xu Xiaodong went into one of these matches and broke his leg like Anderson Silva, Chris Weidman, or now Conner McGregor, would that mean that their MMA style is "nonsense" or "disproven"? The rationale simply doesn't make sense. Added to which, given all the people challenging Xu Xiaodong, he always manages to select opponents who are much smaller and/or older than he is; that's a huge advantage! Even the Gracies discuss "Boyd Belts" where every 20lbs heavier, and every ten years younger an opponent is equates to a higher belt level in BJJ. In other words, even if these Kung Fu stylists had fighting skills roughly equivalent to Xu, given that they are always much smaller or older, you would simply expect him to win. Lastly, Xu runs his mouth far too much to take seriously. He claims that almost all Kung Fu in China is "useless" (this is coming from a self-acknowledged over-the-hill MMA fighter), whereas the best MMA fighter China ever produced, Zhang WeiLi, actively trains traditional Chinese Kung Fu and incorporates it into her MMA game (she trains Chen-style taiqiquan and Shuai Jiao). So, in summary, you can't take what Xu says seriously, and his entire logic that, defeating someone in a fight means that their style is useless, doesn't even make sense. All he has done is proven that he is a better fighter than these smaller and older men, good for him but these "victories" are as meaningless as his MMA career.
After Xu, there is this opinion about Martial arts is MMA. If your martial arts cannot compete with MMA rules, it means your arts is mcdojo. Or bullshido.
You gotta keep in mind that a lot of stuff in China has political relevance. Of course Zhang Weili is claiming that Chinese traditions made her the amazing fighter she is, everything else would make China look bad. Of course Xu Xiadong is getting cencored and has a bad rep in China because he is establishing MMA (western sport) as far superiour than kung fu, therefore invalidating and putting down chinsese identity and traditions (in the governments eyes). At the end of the day you have to see past the political aspect of things and just accept that some shit is more effective than others. MMA is simply more effective than Kung Fu. If your school teaches "real kung fu" thats cool but thats the exeption not the norm. With all the video evidence of Wing Chun and Kung Fu masters getting beat up it would be oblivious to think its not because of the style and purely because of weight advantage and such. (Xu isnt the only one exposing these frauds) Furthermore, if you know how to fight or even have a funktioning brain, you can see that these so called masters never been in a fight before (so its def not about weight) cause you can see their panic and stiffness
@@bruhmiyamoto9685 "effective" at what? Certainly, MMA fighters seem to be more "effective" at one-on-one, unarmed combat. But comparing MMA to Kung Fu is, first of all, using labels which are ridiculous on their face. Kung Fu is 400+ styles of martial arts! MMA isn't even a martial art, it is a rule-set that martial artists can fight under. I don't even think you realize how little sense you are making.
@@jasonjean2901 Yeah I agree with you, Kung Fu does have a lot of styles. And yeah MMA is a COMBAT SPORT. Nonetheless the point still stands: MMA guys can fight, while the majority of Kung Fu guys cant (exept were talking Sanda) Also I dont get why ur highlighting the unarmed one on one combat part. In what world is any Kung Fu style proficent in dealing with multiple attackers (possibly armed) if the same style cant even hold their own one on one?
@@bruhmiyamoto9685 Actually, I was emphasizing the "hand-to-hand" more so than the "one-on-one" aspect to it. Most Kung Fu styles train a lot with weapons, that matters, as you get good at what you train for. Additionally, BJJ generally blows at fighting multiple attackers. If you're first instinctual reaction is to pull-guard and drag one opponent to the ground then his buddies will beat the shit out of you. Also, the statement "MMA guys can fight" is ridiculous. Maybe you haven't watched enough low-level MMA fights, but there are lots who can't fight. Lastly, there are whole academies made in the 1900s by Kung Fu fighters who would regularly beat the crap out of western wrestlers, boxers, and kickboxers, such as Huo Yuanjia. To have such ignorant people, who obviously know nothing of Chinese history or even modern-day Kung Fu history, that claim, as Xu Xiaodong does, that Sanda is the only "legit" martial art simply shows your ignorance.
I agree with you 100%. I also liked when you talked about people saying you're a traitor just because you want to train somewhere else to try it out. My Master never made me feel that way, but I've had experience with that with some of the other instructors, but never really paid it any mind.
I only train at mma gyms, and the immense contrast in quailty is astounding. I catergorize them first as "Hobbie gyms" and "Fighter gyms". If a hobbie gym, then idc I just stay away. If a fighter gym, then I look to see how the integrate different styles for mma and if they are a "rough me up" gym, which is a gym where the coaches usually allow people to hit each other alot. I stay away from gyms where the different styles (Kickboxing, boxing, jiu jitsu etc) are taught in a way that makes them impossible to integrate, and i stay away from "rough me up gyms" for my health, but shit, it's fun to go there once in a while.
Agree with you about the western world bit. Trained TKD for 10 years before joining the AF. Full contact, headhunting TKD. Yes, TKD is limited form of martial arts and I have since moved on to Kickboxing, BJJ and MMA training. Long story short, my first base was South Korea and the school right off base promised a black belt in a year and made you pay for everything (bi-weekly stripe tests 25 dollars, nearly monthly belts tests 50 dollars). The school was all little korean children and old military members. Smh. Edit: not one of these people at this gym could throw a legit technique. I trained for a month there and was luck enough to already have a black belt, but the instructor was pressuring me to take the 2nd dan test ($300).
I went to the school of a student of George Dillman. That being said we sparred, grappled, did kata, and did technique a lot. We never really tried any of that chi crap. When Dillman came for a group of us blackbelt testing he tried pulling a line of like 40-50 of us. We were all lined up with about a foot between each person and the person in front of them. I was very skeptical and resisted getting pulled down. The person behind me was pulling on my shoulders and about 20 people behind him were pulling him. I'm 99% sure I was just physically pulled down by the dude behind me.
Keep it up mate, your work is very important exposing these frauds, it’s abuse what they do and they should be exposed for taking advantage of ignorance.
My school is Im pretty sure run by volunteer work, we rent out a town center, they don't charge for testing or belts, and the fees are really good. I'm pretty happy about it
I think you missed one. I'd add "Unqualified instructors". There was a school opened up near me a few months ago that offered accelerated instructor training. You could get your black belt, be certified to teach, and open your own school with just 6 weeks of training. No matter what martial art you're teaching, no matter the goals of your students are, 6 weeks is not enough training to be able to teach anything, let alone martial arts.
I was definitely in more than one McDojos. But, they did teach me some basic moves. The moves are useful for flexibility and stability. And no, I cannot fight myself out of a wet paper bag.
I think when the definition was speaking of working for profit in a bad way, it was referring to how you structure your lessons and operate your business. BJJ is a good example of that. The way if teaching BJJ is so very inefficient and unproductive to the point that I think it is done that way deliberately. The longer it takes to learn, the longer you will be there learning and therefore paying.
That’s the reason to do research, try different facilities and know what your goals are you’re looking to achieve. Always schools that don’t do contracts out there though 🤷🏻♂️
Some people will call schools McDojo simply because they do an attendance based belt/stripe raking system. What they may not understand is that large schools with many students may not have the time or resources to test all students for belts and stripes. I personally think that this is ok, but I do like testing for full belts and the stripes can be attendance based. But even if, say in BJJ, you are more or less guaranteed a blue belt after a year so long as you attend x number of classes, that doesn't make the school McDojo necessarily.
I left a place which slowly became a McDojo. The last two things that did it for me - charging money for sparring classes and not holding any other sparring classes + advertising themselves as BJJ/MMA, when they weren't even holding those classes. That was it for me.
I also think the practice of as you go up in rank the academy costs go up is a mcdojo practice. It makes it so they have an incentive to promote you without you actually being ready. My daughter attended a teakwondo school that did that. She studied and practiced hard to get her black belt and got it but the kids that got promoted with her couldn't even do the forms. They coached them through the whole test.
Awesome channel, subbed. Thanks for letting us know bout #1 a lot of youtube won't allow that anymore. Only other tip: if your instructor's nose doesn't look like it's been broken 5x, move on.
"there are a lot of people who can kick my ass and I don't give a shit" amen brother, I say the same thing when someone asks me my credentials. (You earned a new subscriber btw with your humbleness)
Damn, that Loren Copp one really ticks me off. That patch identifies him as part of the Shorin-Kan, a legitimate Shorin-Ryu system that can trace it's lineage hundreds of years through all the big name old-time masters - Chibana, Itosou, Matsumura, Sakugawa. I know, because I trained in this system for over 10 years and have a 2nd degree black belt in their karate and a 1st in their kobudo system. I never heard of this dude (different part of the country), but it really REALLY pisses me off that he'd not only abuse minors, but abuse a legit martial art in the process.
Great points. I have people who I have had these discussions with when they considered all TKD and most karate mcdojo’s. Especially the ones with stars on the gi, stripes and different color Gi’s. I have said many of the things you did. Some people want to learn weapons, Kata demos, meditation etc. it’s what they want so as long as the school isn’t misrepresenting what they teach and you know what you’re getting into, it’s your choice. Many styles from Japan that don’t have kyu’s will let you test for a blackbelt in a year to two. The difference is, they don’t consider you a “real” black belt until you’re a Sandan (3rd dan). I got my ass kicked training and sparring in my 20s. Now in my 50s, having several prior concussions and with many back injuries, I don’t want to be punched in the head too much any more lol.
I had chronic illness so I was unable to try martial arts, but I sort of figured there was something weird about small children I grew up with comparing belt colors to argue over who was "tougher"
I love my martial art, there’s no actual fighting, and it leans heavily into the art side. Its called Iaido, and its just practicing kata with a katana. I love it, it teaches me focus, and I’m getting strong. I’m fully aware I could never use it to fight
Been to several schools over the course of life. One of them it just felt like everything about the business was set up to nickel-and-dime me out of more money. Monthly fees, oh you need to buy special equipment from us, you need to get this patch sewn on your uniform and must do it through us, testing fee, tournament fee, special seminar fee, t shirt fee, etc. I think instructors have every right to get paid and be successful. But it can get to a point where students start to feel scammed. School I'm at now, I think I actually pay more total, but the costs are upfront and the instructor focuses on teaching instead of constantly hitting me up for money.
I think i was blessed with ALL the MA experiences i have endured. Not random beatings. No trash talk (of course some friendly stuff- nothing hard core. In fact- if it was say a professional tournament- my coach would try and send a team to compete. No discouraging. My master would bring in all sorts of instructors. All sorts of MA. Take what works. Discard those which do not.). Just respect for others and a drive to make myself better.
Thank you for this. I made a comment on Sensai Seth's latest video (his reaction to a show on fake black belts) and got roasted when I said I earned a black belt in a little over 2 years. They assume that my school is fraud, calling it a McDojo and it really caught me off guard because I'd never heard this term but I understood the implication and I know it's not true. I get it though some schools are more technical, some schools requirements are higher and it's harder to get to the level of black belt. Before I started I let my kids take martial arts classes for 6 months to be sure that one, they wanted to do it and liked and two, to see if the instructors and masters seemed legit. After six months of watching them the little kid in me wanted to step in and start the journey with my kids. We are a small school and small association within the greater Taekwondo community but we are not taking advantage of people or their time. We are middle American small town rural USA every day average folks. I love my martial arts family and I love that we have this and wish to keep it going and learn/teach as long as I'm able. Our founder is even still alive at 91 years old. He's teachings are rooted in martial arts and it's such an honor to have this community that he started. When I got my black belt, or any other person that I saw get their black belts there's one thing that ranking master said that I'll never forget, "this is just the beginning." I've just now scratched the surface of what I'm going to learn, all the while being a senior student in my school teaching those that want to learn, that alone is worth it. And just to add I'm not going around trying to compare myself to others, or other schools or teachings. That's not the point of getting into martial arts. As you said people quit martial arts every day and won't stick with it. I've known some that get their black and belt and that's all they want. Good on them. If you have good instructors and masters it makes it a little easier to stick with it. I love learning from my instructors and when I get a chance I love to go have class with my master because of the wealth of knowledge and detailed instructing they give because they've been doing it for so long. I like how you said that you are mediocre. I played soccer for years and played on some good teams and some really bad teams. I played at a mediocre DII school in every sense of the word, never had a winning season in the 4 years I played but it was still fun. You'll get out of it what you put in just like any other sport. I could talk about this for days:) Take care, God bless.
The cash for belts thing that I have seen at one place I knew (closed now because was about 20 years back) really classed it as a McDojo. While it was possible to learn only some “students” were really focused on or trained -and you could tell them with a picture. As long as you paid though you got your black belt. (Just my experience worth the paper it is written on)
PAI'S TKD ANYWHERE IN NY STATE! AT AGE 18 I FOUGHT A "SECOND DEGREE INSTRUCTOR" TWICE IN ONE NIGHT AND HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY "UNDEFEATED" AND WAS ALSO ABOUT FIFTEEN YEARS MY SENIOR.
Just to give everyone a reality check; I have been a practitioner of Iaido since I was 16. It took me 5 years to reach 1st Dan; another 10 years to earn 2nd Dan. I became 3rd Dan when I was 38. I have never worn a 'belt.' Real mastery of martial arts takes a lifetime, and is never complete. It's not about wearing a belt or being cool; its about learning and bettering yourself.
The only things I've seen sticks used for in martial arts training is either weapons training, demonstrations (where people actually do get hit, but not by anything resembling the logs in this video) and physical conditioning, with things like rolling a stick over the shins.
A brown belt in tkd (ata) in my town (4800 peeps) founded his own school and gave himself a black belt. Called his school (his name) Karate. His school lasted over a decade before he got outed as a brown belt. Ah, the eighties without internet.
A red flag for me is attendance based ranking. I don’t have a problem with a minimum attendance before being eligible for a given rank, provided it’s reasonable. I mean schools that allow students to earn rank just by attending. Rank should be earned by demonstrating improved technique that correlates with a defined curriculum.
You mentioned schools not wanting people to train at other schools. I've been out of the dojo sitting for a long time and about two years ago I started calling around to schools that have similar systems that I trained in. All but one of them said" we prefer a blank slate." Or something to that effect. All but one said no to the question of an open door policy ( for those who don't know, that means letting people from other schools come in and see what your school is about). School's not allowing cross training is a big red flag for me! If anyone wants to hear it I can go into detail about how my instructors open door policy benefited me greatly. For now I think my comment has been long enough.
Truly appreciate all of your support. We are super close to hitting 50K :)
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Simple. Find your school on tapology.com
If there are no fighters. It’s a McDojo
Hello. As you are someone really familiarized to indentify McDojos, I would like to ask you something.
I once had a "muay thai" master that actually just had black belt for Taekondo. He said he teached how to kick, punch, use elbows, use knees; and that Muay Thai, Taekondo, Full Contact, Kung Fu are all "the same shit". He said he used to change the name of the martial art of his gym depending on which one was more in the media to attrack more students.
He actually teached well how to box and to kick (I believe). We used to train sparring, on punching bags, boxing pads and those "mini shields" intructors hold (don't know the name in english lol). he claimed to have professional fights, although I could never find his record. Other instructors I trained with afterwards said I had a good base.
Was that a McDojo?
@@tiocroc4814 yes.
I am an mma teacher with a Bjj Blackbelt. And a Kenpo blackbelt(cause I was a dumb kid once) I also teach kickboxing and won an amateur belt in kickboxing. I was 13-5 pro in mma & have had several students in the ufc.
I call my striking class kickboxing. Not MT.
Cause it’s NOT MT.
Thai is a very specific thing and only a hack wouldn’t know that. I would not insult the local MT krus by suggesting that I am qualified to teach MT as I am not. I never fought under pro MT rules and my students don’t.
We don’t do a wai kru we don’t circle the ropes in the cage we don’t wear the head thing. I teach striking mostly for mma.
That’s very different than thai.
Your instructor was w liar AND a fraud.
I don’t care how well he taught a knee.
Guys come to my bjj class all the time and say “I’m a brown belt in nogi” cause some local hole gyn said they are.’
I say “a brown belt in nogi bjj is called a white belt.”
I ask who gave it to them and it’s unusually an mma type gym that doesn’t do gi and the instructors are not registered bjj blackbelts and cannot give belts in jack shit. Most had no idea.
Some come in with a belt to gi class and I ask them who gave them it ans they are not real blackbelts and so I say they wear white.
This is not me saying this. Not my opinion, it’s a fact. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a specific thing. To get a blackbelt u need meet many criteria in addiction to be signed off on by registered Blackbelts.
U must pass a background check, cpr course and etc etc.
I must verify my students got belts certain dates snd send the IBJJF pictures of them and verify the competition record.
I assure u John jones can tap me. It does not make him a bjj blackbelt.
And I assure u he can beat most MT krus in a thai match but John is not qualified to teach MT.
Lately I’ve watched many local karate schools and kung fu ones give their teen age students blacks belts in mma.
I love sending these blackbelts in mma the info that their teacher never fought mma. They’ve never cornered mma. And mma is a SPORT.
If I have never wrestled or coach wrestling I am not a wrestler if I know how to change level.
A cardio boxing coach who’s never trained an actual boxer is not a boxing trainer. He is a cardio boxing trainer
@@ransakreject5221 thank you 🙏🏻
@@ransakreject5221 we are going to disagree slightly with 2 things.
1) I don’t believe they have to be on tapology to be considered legit.
2) 10th planet blackbelts are blackbelts in No-Gi Jiujitsu.
But this was just stating my opinion for conversation not argument
"Cult like behavior" is a really tricky one. There's a very fine line between a "family atmosphere" which has extremely positive connotations and a cult which has extremely negative connotations. Things like gym loyalty and following arbitrary customs are aspects of both.
Family atmosphere would be like miyagi do type stuff. And cult would be like cobra Kai stuff. Sorry it’s a reference from a show but maybe it’s an idea
@@michaelberardo4614 Honestly? That's a good example!
your family is a cult
@michaelberardo4614 some would even call Miyagi do a cult like atmosphere lol
One of them I saw (and still in business) is “secret techniques that you’re not allowed to discuss with anyone”. No deprivation or even a money grab…. But everything is either based off of UA-cam or outright lying
Watched this video when it first came out to make sure I wasn't joining a McDojo - I had no prior martial arts experience so I had no idea how to judge. It was great advice and knowing that I had joined a legit school made me train extra hard, sometimes 3 or even 4 classes a week. Psyched for my black belt test next week!
Had me in the first half, not gonna lie 😂💀
your school is a mcdojo sorry
black belt in one year is fast
Your school is a mcdojo bro
I once had to move away from one of my traditional Hung Gar teachers. He spent about three hours telling me what to look for, what to avoid, and even where to find a new teacher. Number one was "if they can't back up their credentials or they won't let you sit in on a class, run, don't walk away." He also told me what to look for in forms, like whether something really makes senses as a sword form, etc. His advice has kept me in legit martial arts since. Thanks Rob for taking the time to put this video together. You are doing an incredible and valuable service to all legit martial artists (and not just in the West!). Thanks.
Where did you learn Hung Gar?
@@_jade_rebel_ Wong fei hung
5 animal hung fu? Which animal is best?
@@SchoolIsAConspiracy hah! What you watched Jett Li and inferred the rest of Wong Fei Hung’s kung fu?
@@silverfox8801 mhm…. I don’t remember hung gar = 5 animals, but if so, then I do know that you cannot say which animal is best, they are all important to the style, it’s just like asking “are submissions, transitions, or controls the best part of BJJ?”
The specificity of the McDLife definition makes it far more helpful than the other popular definitions out there. But the equally important lesson that bears repeating is that when folks actively mislabel real dojos as 'McDojos' because they think their own style is best or whatever, these people are engaging in McDojo-like behaviour themselves. Do your MA thing; let others' do theirs.
God I hate people claiming "My kung-fu is better than your kung-fu"!
@@NicolasdeFontenay it's not that worse than saying, My Muay Thai is better than your Tae Kwon Do.
@@KenMikaze any combination is dumb.Looks like we agree.
@@NicolasdeFontenay Though, there is this best martial art that is so underrated. It's called Sayonachi.
A naive woman opened a gym in our little town. Having been a gym member my entire adult life, I told her that 87% of people who start going to a gym are no longer going after a year. Gyms make money by signing people to 1 year contracts and collecting those monthly fees long after they have quit coming. She said that would not be necessary in our little town. After about a year, she starting doing 1 year memberships (paid with a credit card or bank draft) and instituted a more costly month-to-month program. She never said anything to me about what I had told her.
Well, seems i am one of those unworthy and incompetent martial arts teacher..... My fees are low, il don't bind, i encourage people to look into other dojos, and yeah, aikido is not vert popular anyway and i have only (?) 4 regular people who allways come back and my aikido teaching cost me money , but if won't change.... Believing to do what i perceive as right is what drives me...
@@brunoboettcher8921 I pay €200 up front, which covers a full year; most member pay in full in September - which make budgeting easier and it's still comes down cheaper than most martial arts clubs, even if you only stick around 4 months. Our Dojo has a 45 year old history. The original founder never made a dime off karate; so it's one of our core tenants that every instructor works on a voluntary basis. Doesn't mean that we're strictly against making money from teaching karate, it's just tradition and philosophy of our club.
I attended a karate school for about a year when I was in sixth grade. A few month into it, I realized the instructor was less interested in teaching and more interested in collecting the monthly payment. When we were about due to renew the one-year contract, he brought my parents into the workout area and had me perform a kata. I purposely screwed up a few moves to see if he would say anything. Of course, he told my parents I was doing great and really making progress. I told them later that the place was a scam and I wasn't going back.
I was prohibited from training at other studios and even competing in open tournaments by my first instructor. At my own studio, I don't prevent anybody from cross training elsewhere or competing where they want. If there's a skillset they want that I can't teach them, I'll encourage them to learn it and even recommend other studios that offer it.
@@thatoneguybones8036 That's the sad part of some martial arts studios and their head instructors. There's some weird attempt at ownership of their students and a need to assert control over their decisions. These tend to be the same instructors that don't let you ask questions and won't spar their students. It's an ego thing, I think. You should always be able to ask your instructor questions. They should also be open to sparring with their students. It's a good confidence builder for new students, allows the instructor to demonstrate their control and it keeps their skillset intact.
Yep big red flag not letting people go elsewhere. If people want a skill they don't offer, bring it or let then learn it. My current gym is a big competition focused bjj and judo gym and since I am always at open mat on Thursday with a strong wrestling backround and my old wrestling coach is a student there. They gave us permission to run wrestling practice on Thursdays and it is the most popular class for the bjj competitors.
I believe you make a confusion between "McDojo" and "Bullshido". The origin of the term McDojo is definitely linked to the "making money" and "conveyor belt" of belts. I remember the old days of 2000s when both terms appeared on the interwebs, and McDojo is for sure a term that refers to "giving belts in exchange for money". Great channel btw, love your content.
can we say “mc dojo is a dojo that practice bullshido”
I agree. We say McDojo to mean "1 billion black belts served." The idea of just getting new people in and rushing them through ranks without worrying about quality and consistency, while potentially opening multiple locations to keep expanding.
I think rob has taken that general concept but narrowed it down just so that he only targets evil and purely bad things with his definition.
@@peterwang5660 I would agree with that.
I second this, in m'y understanding a McDojo is a school where, like a fast food, you pay for bad instruction to get (fake or at least useless) belt diplomas, which is allready wrong enough! Without taking into account all the puking rest i associate with bullshido and other "arts" of mindfucking.....
The dojang i went too for ten years slowly grew into something more like a mcdojo over the years. One of the more serious instructors left to start his own school, and the quality of learning went down and the placed turned into a glorified daycare by the time I stopped attending because going felt like a chore and I had just started college so I didn't have as much time.
Hi, Rob, and thank you for yet another superb breakdown!
I believe that since the "awareness" of sub-standard practices within the martial arts industry has been evolving for the last decade or so - people are often (too) rushing to get "onto the train" to bash different schools and calling out "McDojos". However - I believe that your definition is a great one. Simple rules, simple definitions.
Now - my only experience with martial arts is that I've been taking and also training boxing/boxers for like 20 years, and then now - started taking it again (I am now 46) after 8 years of not training at all. My daughter - who has a mental dissability and autism - takes Taekwondo. All of a sudden, the local Karate club members started to call her taekwondo school a McDojo, which I believe is utter bullshit. She goes there to train. She gains balance, strength and greater self esteem and self reliance. Sure - she will not be a "fighter", but the reasons to train are not also to be a fighter in the first place. She does it because it helps her. And she does it because she think it's fun (she has now - in four years - become a green belt. Stuff takes a little longer for her, from her disabilities).
Sorry for my somewhat lacking English - I'm from Sweden.
I've always had issues with "we are better than others" crap. Martial arts should be open to everyone and it can never be wrong to let someone with a disability train and get belts. A belt is as much of an indication of you commitment as it it is a testimony of what you have mastered. Those karate assholes are the the ones who are wrong (directed to the person's in question and not karate as a system) how can they be so small minded that they start to bad mouth a place that allows people to better themselves. All that matters is that your daughter enjoys her training and gets some exercise.
If I want to be an efficient fighter, I'll train how to operate heavy military equipment, not hand to hand combat, lol.
That's awesome that it's called lissajous-do. I've never heard of the discipline but I'm a mathematician and I'm familiar with the curves I assume it's named after, appropriately.
Yes, it is. Very cool you caught that. Those same curves actually map out the bodies movement. All the way up to 2:3
Deep respect for you , I've encountered a few McDojo's in my local city and warn others off. Luckily I've stuck with a good kickboxing, ju-jitsu and BJJ gym and train there.
I've started the road to assistant ju-jitsu instructor, we have a national governing body which is nationally and internationally recognised and has tough inspection. Even as a volunteer on the mat I have to have an enhanced DBS check (criminal records check), I welcome these standards and at all the kids classes we actively welcome all parents to attend and sit in the viewing area. I am suspicious of 'closed' groups and organisations.
Oss
@@hardcaliber19 The ones I'm most familiar with are WAKO for kickboxing, UKBJJA for BJJ and BJJA for ju-jitsu, most governing bodies have links to Sport
England I believe
Thank you so much for this video! I have been following your channel for some time and this video really hit me. I have been running my martial art schools for over 15 years and have been called a mcdojo. I am profiting from it and have lots of students. I definitely feel like I do my best to be honest and upfront about the service I offer and I sincerely want to better the lives of my students. Many videos online seem to criticize those who make money and work to get people to black belt. My fellow martial art school owners in my area even tell their potential clients that I am a mcdojo because of my fees and contracts (I do have 30 day notice clauses btw). It is hard not to have doubt because of all the things people may say online or locally. Thank you for pointing out that running a business and trying to make a good living doesn’t make you a mcdojo, but practices that are not in the best interests of students and only to gratify the instructor’s own selfish agenda are. This video was an inspiration to me and something I really needed to hear. Thank you 🙏
Glad it could made a positive impact
Having never done martial arts in my life and recently starting BJJ as a newbie white belt spazz, finding out about mcDojos blows my mind! We definitely have a few here in the U.K. but my SO calls it ‘pay to play’ which he means you pay for your grading so you get given the belt instead of actually earning it when you’re ready.
PS: subscribing!!
Im lucky to live in Brazil, here mcdojos are pretty rare and weak in business. I've trained with great masters at shotokan karate, boxing and muay thai (all the greatest legends are from my city, Curitiba, and I've met and trained with many of them).
E aí piá, bom ver alguém de Curitiba aqui kkkkk
Well, fortunately I'm an Ameri Do te student. So, I'm sure my system is the best and deadliest.
HAHHAHA good for u #goAmeriDoTe
At what level black belt does thrust of freedom become part of your training? :D
me: rewatches old ‚What makes a McDojo‘ for fun right now
McDojoLife: uploads new McDojo video
👀👀👀
😂 that’s awesome
A Mcdojo is any school that isn't mine.
Totally agree with your comments. At our karate club we always try to improve ourselves and build up our students in a positive way. Me and the other instructors constantly research, question each other and welcome our students to question us with what we are teaching them. I believe I’m there to pass on my knowledge of the martial art I’m passionate about. It’s not about being the best, it’s about being better than you where yesterday, that goes for me as well as my students!
Actually your martial arts resume is way better that what I expected, good job with the youtube channel also!
On my first training camp in Indonesia, we had a journalist/silat instructor teach a seminar on the different ways that people would try to con us with tenaga dalam. That was a very useful class. Also, we didn't throw rocks at each other. Overall, a positive experience.
You need to compile a Top 10 list of "You might be a McDojo if..." Like, if you're sensei can knock people out from across the room by waving his jazz hands, you might be a McDojo. Or, if your sensei doesn't wear a black belt because they don't come in obese bastard size, you might be a McDojo.
Thats the first time I heard about your martial arts experience...And let me tell you...You are bad ass!! Respect for your understatement and what you actually do good for martial arts. Keep it up.
If only you had been around back when I got into the Bujinkan here in Tucson, AZ. I could have saved myself some really hard life lessons. The dojo I trained in basically hit all five of your things to look out for (you feature the douche I trained under often). I appreciate the work you've been doing to protect people, especially kids (parents should definitely watch this so they can scrutinize dojos they want too sign their kids up for)!
Been casually watching for a while, finally subbed. You deserve the 50k and more.
Truly appreciate that
One of the the schools I attended was not a McDojo, but was McDojo adjacent...or McDojo-ish. I realized that he had a drug/alcohol problem going into my third year with him. He would ask for fees in advance to pay a bill or cover some odd situation. He was legit, all the name brand schools knew who he was and the lineage he came from White lotus style. The stuff he taught got me out of few jams...but hey we live an learn.
Just started watching ur vids and it took this vid to have me subscribe. This is because of you talking about ur background and being humble about it. I really like how you read the articles of what a McDojo is and then addressed your opposing views. Very insightful. Thank you.
Appreciate it
Glad I watched this vid Rob. I finally worked up the courage to go to a "Kickboxing class" and like you mentioned in the video it was much more of a cardio/stations type setup. You were just told to do whatever at each station with very little instruction on proper technique or anything to do with actual kickboxing. I always thought it seemed odd but I thought "maybe I'm just being a dick and expecting too much". Good to know I wasn't wrong and thatvI only went to a few sessions. Thanks! @mcdojolife
I feel like there are two types of "kickboxing" cardio and competitive. Cardio is more of a fitness class and Competitive is more competition kickboxing with live sparring and such. As long as the studio/gym is open as to which type it is there isn't a problem.
@@Mememulelife sparring is probably one of the easiest ways of knowing which type someone's doing yeah
As Joe off the street who doesn't know much about martial arts I appreciate this list. It's good to know what dojos to avoid. My red flags are too many black belts, kids with adult black belts and talk about some "ultimate" or "forbidden unstoppable techniques" only available to "advanced" students.
I agree with the points presented.
Effectiveness of a martial art in a streetfight does not automatically decide which dojo is a mcdojo, unless it is wrongly marketed to attract students.
Thank you for everything you do Rob!
Especially thank you for bringing attention to David Arnebeck.
Don’t kid yourself bro, your BADASS!!!
I used to train in a small group where the lead guy was… quite bizarre. He had these ”codes” such as, he didn’t teach you things because he wanted to have an upper hand on you in sparring etc. And believed that the ”student” should never surpass the ”teacher”. Wierd stuff all together. Now he’s a LEO and a self defense intructor in 2-3 arts.
Haha! I remember one time we were kickboxing and I was dominating him (I was training muay thai at the time) and he got so upset that he double legged me and took side control and started to arm bar me or something. Everyone just stood there with their mouths open in disbelief. That was the last time I trained in that group. 😄
What's a Leo?
@@matthewbaumann630 Law Enforcement Officer
@@peteragren7568 Nice. My Karate school has jumped the Shark. We haven't done sparring in over a year.
This is fantastic.
I’d love to learn more traditional Kung fu (I know some but not much) not for any self-defense or combat but because it’s beautiful and I’d just love to learn it.
Everyone nowadays always associating martial arts = MMA. If you learn Martial Arts but cannot fight in MMA rule = McDojo/Bullshido.
@@radenadityaaufarino8452 literally not even what Rob says in the video
More traditional kung fu would actually be for combat, if you’re into the beautiful shit, do modern kung fu/wushu. Chinese martial arts as a community and thing has honestly given up on trying to revive itself as a combat practice. And you having to disclaimer your interest with “not for defense it just looks cool” is more unfortunate byproducts of that.
@@peterwang5660 fair enough - but you get my point. I don’t care about combat much at all.
It’s just fun
@@guitargeek57 Yeah well go ahead, maybe I’ll see you pretending to fly ten meters from a tornado kick in a movie one day.
Damn you're getting so good at this. A particularly good episode, thank you sir.
This was a really well-reasoned and articulate explanation. Thank you.
Thank you for you're videos! I have been practicing martial arts for about 10 years and have always had some doubts about the lineage I learned from(Shaolin-Do). I was fortunate to be part of the black sheep school that was very focused on what you were saying about reasons people join martial arts. The reasons of, social interactions, losing weight, etc. It's refreshing to hear your explanations and I hope more people watch your videos so they can learn and understand martial arts better.
Another extra fee example for you from the gym where I got my purple belt. They would advertise a well known Black Belt as an instructor, but he only normally taught on Tuesday during like a 10 AM day class when most folks were working. When he did teach during the time slot for a regularly scheduled Saturday class, they would charge an additional fee, and call it a seminar even though there was no regular Saturday class available to attend. You had to pay the fee to attend or leave and they enforced that. In other words, they would charge again for the Saturday you thought you already paid for, in order to get training from the instructor that you thought was already included in the classes that you already paid for. Since I left the same school demands you use only their GIs and will be aggressive to you as well if you cross-train somewhere else too.
First of all, congrats on tackling this issue. In the past I had taken many free classes at different schools only to find out quite quickly that there were "issues" with the teachers or their methods. Also, thanks for being specific in what a McDojo means. I studied Martial arts for about 4 years before creating my own system (Not style) so that I could continue to study on my own. I carefully avoided anything that would discredit what I was trying to accomplish.
I called my system Wei Tai Jutsu. I was always honest with students about my background and my fight records. I never taught children. I never charged any students because I loved to learn and didn't want it to become a job. I have only recently put out a couple of videos that talk about Wei Tai Jutsu just because I'm 50 years old and have been practicing it for 30 years. It has done me a lot of good so why not share it.
I have always felt that Martial arts training is a very personal journey and often a spiritual one. With the introduction of MMA I feared we were losing the more meaningful parts of that journey but now I see many people trying to bring that back. Anyway, thank you for what you do and keep up the good work. Alex
Verry good video! Thank you.
Could not have put it better!
I would label my school as semi combat effective. Main focus however is self development and having fun with friends.
The one dislike is a person who realized they were at a mcdojo
I joined a mcdojo, and most definitely hit like! I quit immediately
" You can only wear affiliated apparel if you want to train at this gym" --- BJJ McDojo
I was really impressed with your explanation.
Brilliant list! Thank you. I have been a part of Fu Jow Pai Kung Fu for over 27 years and feel very lucky to have had a Sifu of great integrity and skill but not business skill. He kept his school running because of his honesty and trustworthiness but struggled financially because he didn’t want to be seen as a Mcdojo. He sadly passed in 2017. This video makes me appreciate him more.
Waaay back in the day when I first heard the term McDojo, it was more along the lines of the last definition. It was a reference to “fast food” dojos where the instructor was greedy and teaching garbage and quickly handing out black belts to people who clearly didn’t deserve black belts. So it was just a term that meant that you studied at a place that should not have given you a black belt because you’re no good.
Issue with that is it’s a bit subjective and at the end of the day most gyms/instructors will have different versions of what good is. I tried to keep it to the important issues.
Seeing this video? I think you might want to look into the Blood and Iron HEMA club out on the West Coast. Because they, especially Lee Smith, hit up points 2 and 3 in a textbook fashion.
When I was looking for a martial arts school for my kids I called ahead first and asked lots of questions and I also asked for references. Who they learned from and where and then I contacted them. Fortunately, for me both the school and instructor were still around and could vouch for the martial arts school.
a big thing that gets me are empty promises. "will help improve grades" but they dont offer anything that to do so. such as an study program or anything. if they promise something they should have a tool in place to facilitate those ends
i LOVE my TKD teacher and classes, i live in upstate NY and the place i go is Master Kim's Tae Kwan Do. from a smaller kid to a 37 year old man with a BIG break in between and i recently started again and i LOVE it. i would love for you to ck the studio out might be a good video for a good school, a non McDojo
I watched mine rurn into a Mcdojo. We got a bunch of local TV personalities and their friends, kids in. It was too hard for them. Started pushing for this 'New' Taekwondo. Grandmaster addressed the issue, factions were built in the membership with the Karens(our newest members) pushing the hardest. Yeah. The school is closed. I watched a 'Master' cry after not breaking a board during her 5th Level exam. It sucks but people generally don't want to learn the Martial Arts, they want an experience that makes them feel important. Is what it is.
I go to an ATA school (Which is highly labeled as a McDojo) but the school I go to doesn't fit ANY of the criteria I've seen online or talking to other people about what a McDojo is other than maybe the patches on the uniforms (which aren't required by my instructor at least) and the fact that music is played during class. Plus, my instructor openly encourages you to learn more, even if it's outside of what was taught at his school.
It really just depends on the school in my opinion, and unfortunately there are a crap ton of McDojo's to get tricked by. I even was tricked by one when I was younger, and I've used my experiences with that school to make sure I wasn't tricked again looking for another school to train at
Awesome job Rob for not just jumping right to your rules for a McDojo. I totally agree that making money, quick belt progression, or the style/practicality itself don't make a McDojo.
I think I separate a McDojo (the location and business) from Bullshido (an individual or that individual's style). So when I think of a McDojo I think mostly of rule 5 (shady business practices) l. To me the other rules call out, accurately, Bullshido.
And as I stated in a previous comment, pedophilia is wrong no matter what. It doesn't matter what form or subcategory it takes. So for me it's not a McDojo rule but a rule in general.
I honestly don't understand the logic of what Xu Xiaodong claims to be doing. Seriously, I get that he is having MMA matches (for the most part) with Kung Fu "masters" in China and he is winning. Good for him! Does losing a match mean that what they know is garbage? If Xu Xiaodong went into one of these matches and broke his leg like Anderson Silva, Chris Weidman, or now Conner McGregor, would that mean that their MMA style is "nonsense" or "disproven"? The rationale simply doesn't make sense. Added to which, given all the people challenging Xu Xiaodong, he always manages to select opponents who are much smaller and/or older than he is; that's a huge advantage! Even the Gracies discuss "Boyd Belts" where every 20lbs heavier, and every ten years younger an opponent is equates to a higher belt level in BJJ. In other words, even if these Kung Fu stylists had fighting skills roughly equivalent to Xu, given that they are always much smaller or older, you would simply expect him to win. Lastly, Xu runs his mouth far too much to take seriously. He claims that almost all Kung Fu in China is "useless" (this is coming from a self-acknowledged over-the-hill MMA fighter), whereas the best MMA fighter China ever produced, Zhang WeiLi, actively trains traditional Chinese Kung Fu and incorporates it into her MMA game (she trains Chen-style taiqiquan and Shuai Jiao). So, in summary, you can't take what Xu says seriously, and his entire logic that, defeating someone in a fight means that their style is useless, doesn't even make sense. All he has done is proven that he is a better fighter than these smaller and older men, good for him but these "victories" are as meaningless as his MMA career.
After Xu, there is this opinion about Martial arts is MMA. If your martial arts cannot compete with MMA rules, it means your arts is mcdojo. Or bullshido.
You gotta keep in mind that a lot of stuff in China has political relevance. Of course Zhang Weili is claiming that Chinese traditions made her the amazing fighter she is, everything else would make China look bad. Of course Xu Xiadong is getting cencored and has a bad rep in China because he is establishing MMA (western sport) as far superiour than kung fu, therefore invalidating and putting down chinsese identity and traditions (in the governments eyes).
At the end of the day you have to see past the political aspect of things and just accept that some shit is more effective than others. MMA is simply more effective than Kung Fu. If your school teaches "real kung fu" thats cool but thats the exeption not the norm. With all the video evidence of Wing Chun and Kung Fu masters getting beat up it would be oblivious to think its not because of the style and purely because of weight advantage and such. (Xu isnt the only one exposing these frauds)
Furthermore, if you know how to fight or even have a funktioning brain, you can see that these so called masters never been in a fight before (so its def not about weight) cause you can see their panic and stiffness
@@bruhmiyamoto9685 "effective" at what? Certainly, MMA fighters seem to be more "effective" at one-on-one, unarmed combat. But comparing MMA to Kung Fu is, first of all, using labels which are ridiculous on their face. Kung Fu is 400+ styles of martial arts! MMA isn't even a martial art, it is a rule-set that martial artists can fight under. I don't even think you realize how little sense you are making.
@@jasonjean2901 Yeah I agree with you, Kung Fu does have a lot of styles. And yeah MMA is a COMBAT SPORT. Nonetheless the point still stands: MMA guys can fight, while the majority of Kung Fu guys cant (exept were talking Sanda)
Also I dont get why ur highlighting the unarmed one on one combat part. In what world is any Kung Fu style proficent in dealing with multiple attackers (possibly armed) if the same style cant even hold their own one on one?
@@bruhmiyamoto9685 Actually, I was emphasizing the "hand-to-hand" more so than the "one-on-one" aspect to it. Most Kung Fu styles train a lot with weapons, that matters, as you get good at what you train for. Additionally, BJJ generally blows at fighting multiple attackers. If you're first instinctual reaction is to pull-guard and drag one opponent to the ground then his buddies will beat the shit out of you. Also, the statement "MMA guys can fight" is ridiculous. Maybe you haven't watched enough low-level MMA fights, but there are lots who can't fight. Lastly, there are whole academies made in the 1900s by Kung Fu fighters who would regularly beat the crap out of western wrestlers, boxers, and kickboxers, such as Huo Yuanjia. To have such ignorant people, who obviously know nothing of Chinese history or even modern-day Kung Fu history, that claim, as Xu Xiaodong does, that Sanda is the only "legit" martial art simply shows your ignorance.
I agree with you 100%. I also liked when you talked about people saying you're a traitor just because you want to train somewhere else to try it out. My Master never made me feel that way, but I've had experience with that with some of the other instructors, but never really paid it any mind.
I only train at mma gyms, and the immense contrast in quailty is astounding. I catergorize them first as "Hobbie gyms" and "Fighter gyms". If a hobbie gym, then idc I just stay away. If a fighter gym, then I look to see how the integrate different styles for mma and if they are a "rough me up" gym, which is a gym where the coaches usually allow people to hit each other alot. I stay away from gyms where the different styles (Kickboxing, boxing, jiu jitsu etc) are taught in a way that makes them impossible to integrate, and i stay away from "rough me up gyms" for my health, but shit, it's fun to go there once in a while.
I am so glad you defended that profit is not bad. Already a huge fan. Cheers from Brazil.
Agree with you about the western world bit. Trained TKD for 10 years before joining the AF. Full contact, headhunting TKD. Yes, TKD is limited form of martial arts and I have since moved on to Kickboxing, BJJ and MMA training. Long story short, my first base was South Korea and the school right off base promised a black belt in a year and made you pay for everything (bi-weekly stripe tests 25 dollars, nearly monthly belts tests 50 dollars). The school was all little korean children and old military members. Smh.
Edit: not one of these people at this gym could throw a legit technique. I trained for a month there and was luck enough to already have a black belt, but the instructor was pressuring me to take the 2nd dan test ($300).
Black belt in a year?! That’s weird sounds like cobra kai lol
@@alanvalencia8585 worse. At least Kobra kai would spar and hit one another. This place was a damn shame.
The Shaolin Temple itself would probably fit some of those criteria. I have in mind specially unsafe practicing conditions
I love your honesty about yourself and your resume... still pretty impressive my friend!!!!!
I went to the school of a student of George Dillman. That being said we sparred, grappled, did kata, and did technique a lot. We never really tried any of that chi crap. When Dillman came for a group of us blackbelt testing he tried pulling a line of like 40-50 of us. We were all lined up with about a foot between each person and the person in front of them. I was very skeptical and resisted getting pulled down. The person behind me was pulling on my shoulders and about 20 people behind him were pulling him. I'm 99% sure I was just physically pulled down by the dude behind me.
Awesome, very accurate. Thank you!
Keep it up mate, your work is very important exposing these frauds, it’s abuse what they do and they should be exposed for taking advantage of ignorance.
My school is Im pretty sure run by volunteer work, we rent out a town center, they don't charge for testing or belts, and the fees are really good. I'm pretty happy about it
I like all your videos but especially this last one. Thanks again for all you do.
I think you missed one. I'd add "Unqualified instructors". There was a school opened up near me a few months ago that offered accelerated instructor training. You could get your black belt, be certified to teach, and open your own school with just 6 weeks of training. No matter what martial art you're teaching, no matter the goals of your students are, 6 weeks is not enough training to be able to teach anything, let alone martial arts.
I'm thankful I just had a boxing bag as a kid and learned to hit bullies in certain painful spots instead of joining a McDojo.
I was definitely in more than one McDojos. But, they did teach me some basic moves. The moves are useful for flexibility and stability. And no, I cannot fight myself out of a wet paper bag.
Love this break down, thankyou for sharing and inspiring us all to train hard and smart
I think when the definition was speaking of working for profit in a bad way, it was referring to how you structure your lessons and operate your business. BJJ is a good example of that. The way if teaching BJJ is so very inefficient and unproductive to the point that I think it is done that way deliberately. The longer it takes to learn, the longer you will be there learning and therefore paying.
Amen to all of that, keep up the good work!
I personally don’t like doing contracts for martial arts because what happens if I just don’t like you after I sign up. Or I find out it’s a Mcdojo
That’s the reason to do research, try different facilities and know what your goals are you’re looking to achieve. Always schools that don’t do contracts out there though 🤷🏻♂️
Another great video. Thanks for exposing these foolish people!
Thank you for posting such a video. Keep up the great work!
6. The instructor's answer on how to deal with multiple opponents or an armed opponent isn't "run away as fast as possible".
Some people will call schools McDojo simply because they do an attendance based belt/stripe raking system. What they may not understand is that large schools with many students may not have the time or resources to test all students for belts and stripes. I personally think that this is ok, but I do like testing for full belts and the stripes can be attendance based. But even if, say in BJJ, you are more or less guaranteed a blue belt after a year so long as you attend x number of classes, that doesn't make the school McDojo necessarily.
I left a place which slowly became a McDojo.
The last two things that did it for me - charging money for sparring classes and not holding any other sparring classes + advertising themselves as BJJ/MMA, when they weren't even holding those classes.
That was it for me.
I also think the practice of as you go up in rank the academy costs go up is a mcdojo practice. It makes it so they have an incentive to promote you without you actually being ready. My daughter attended a teakwondo school that did that. She studied and practiced hard to get her black belt and got it but the kids that got promoted with her couldn't even do the forms. They coached them through the whole test.
This was a really good video actually!! Super informative!
Very good video, as always!
Awesome channel, subbed. Thanks for letting us know bout #1 a lot of youtube won't allow that anymore. Only other tip: if your instructor's nose doesn't look like it's been broken 5x, move on.
"there are a lot of people who can kick my ass and I don't give a shit" amen brother, I say the same thing when someone asks me my credentials. (You earned a new subscriber btw with your humbleness)
Damn, that Loren Copp one really ticks me off. That patch identifies him as part of the Shorin-Kan, a legitimate Shorin-Ryu system that can trace it's lineage hundreds of years through all the big name old-time masters - Chibana, Itosou, Matsumura, Sakugawa. I know, because I trained in this system for over 10 years and have a 2nd degree black belt in their karate and a 1st in their kobudo system. I never heard of this dude (different part of the country), but it really REALLY pisses me off that he'd not only abuse minors, but abuse a legit martial art in the process.
Great points. I have people who I have had these discussions with when they considered all TKD and most karate mcdojo’s. Especially the ones with stars on the gi, stripes and different color Gi’s. I have said many of the things you did. Some people want to learn weapons, Kata demos, meditation etc. it’s what they want so as long as the school isn’t misrepresenting what they teach and you know what you’re getting into, it’s your choice. Many styles from Japan that don’t have kyu’s will let you test for a blackbelt in a year to two. The difference is, they don’t consider you a “real” black belt until you’re a Sandan (3rd dan). I got my ass kicked training and sparring in my 20s. Now in my 50s, having several prior concussions and with many back injuries, I don’t want to be punched in the head too much any more lol.
Love this haha
Sup mr popo
I had chronic illness so I was unable to try martial arts, but I sort of figured there was something weird about small children I grew up with comparing belt colors to argue over who was "tougher"
I love my martial art, there’s no actual fighting, and it leans heavily into the art side. Its called Iaido, and its just practicing kata with a katana. I love it, it teaches me focus, and I’m getting strong. I’m fully aware I could never use it to fight
Been to several schools over the course of life. One of them it just felt like everything about the business was set up to nickel-and-dime me out of more money. Monthly fees, oh you need to buy special equipment from us, you need to get this patch sewn on your uniform and must do it through us, testing fee, tournament fee, special seminar fee, t shirt fee, etc. I think instructors have every right to get paid and be successful. But it can get to a point where students start to feel scammed. School I'm at now, I think I actually pay more total, but the costs are upfront and the instructor focuses on teaching instead of constantly hitting me up for money.
I think i was blessed with ALL the MA experiences i have endured. Not random beatings. No trash talk (of course some friendly stuff- nothing hard core. In fact- if it was say a professional tournament- my coach would try and send a team to compete. No discouraging. My master would bring in all sorts of instructors. All sorts of MA.
Take what works. Discard those which do not.). Just respect for others and a drive to make myself better.
Great video. Thanks for always keeping things real.
Thank you for this. I made a comment on Sensai Seth's latest video (his reaction to a show on fake black belts) and got roasted when I said I earned a black belt in a little over 2 years. They assume that my school is fraud, calling it a McDojo and it really caught me off guard because I'd never heard this term but I understood the implication and I know it's not true. I get it though some schools are more technical, some schools requirements are higher and it's harder to get to the level of black belt. Before I started I let my kids take martial arts classes for 6 months to be sure that one, they wanted to do it and liked and two, to see if the instructors and masters seemed legit. After six months of watching them the little kid in me wanted to step in and start the journey with my kids. We are a small school and small association within the greater Taekwondo community but we are not taking advantage of people or their time. We are middle American small town rural USA every day average folks. I love my martial arts family and I love that we have this and wish to keep it going and learn/teach as long as I'm able. Our founder is even still alive at 91 years old. He's teachings are rooted in martial arts and it's such an honor to have this community that he started. When I got my black belt, or any other person that I saw get their black belts there's one thing that ranking master said that I'll never forget, "this is just the beginning." I've just now scratched the surface of what I'm going to learn, all the while being a senior student in my school teaching those that want to learn, that alone is worth it.
And just to add I'm not going around trying to compare myself to others, or other schools or teachings. That's not the point of getting into martial arts. As you said people quit martial arts every day and won't stick with it. I've known some that get their black and belt and that's all they want. Good on them. If you have good instructors and masters it makes it a little easier to stick with it. I love learning from my instructors and when I get a chance I love to go have class with my master because of the wealth of knowledge and detailed instructing they give because they've been doing it for so long. I like how you said that you are mediocre. I played soccer for years and played on some good teams and some really bad teams. I played at a mediocre DII school in every sense of the word, never had a winning season in the 4 years I played but it was still fun. You'll get out of it what you put in just like any other sport. I could talk about this for days:) Take care, God bless.
"Super mediocre" should be on a t-shirt next to "Worlds OK-est grappler!"
The cash for belts thing that I have seen at one place I knew (closed now because was about 20 years back) really classed it as a McDojo. While it was possible to learn only some “students” were really focused on or trained -and you could tell them with a picture. As long as you paid though you got your black belt. (Just my experience worth the paper it is written on)
PAI'S TKD ANYWHERE IN NY STATE! AT AGE 18 I FOUGHT A "SECOND DEGREE INSTRUCTOR" TWICE IN ONE NIGHT AND HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY "UNDEFEATED" AND WAS ALSO ABOUT FIFTEEN YEARS MY SENIOR.
Just to give everyone a reality check; I have been a practitioner of Iaido since I was 16. It took me 5 years to reach 1st Dan; another 10 years to earn 2nd Dan. I became 3rd Dan when I was 38. I have never worn a 'belt.'
Real mastery of martial arts takes a lifetime, and is never complete. It's not about wearing a belt or being cool; its about learning and bettering yourself.
Bros the ultimate otaku
The only things I've seen sticks used for in martial arts training is either weapons training, demonstrations (where people actually do get hit, but not by anything resembling the logs in this video) and physical conditioning, with things like rolling a stick over the shins.
I very much agree with your position that cost is a matter of perspective.
With anyone’s position. What’s expensive to one person is not to another.
Me: unplugs my headphones
My Phone: "THE F8RST RULE IS PEDOPHILES!"
My Fiance: "What the hell are you watching?!"
A brown belt in tkd (ata) in my town (4800 peeps) founded his own school and gave himself a black belt. Called his school (his name) Karate. His school lasted over a decade before he got outed as a brown belt. Ah, the eighties without internet.
A red flag for me is attendance based ranking.
I don’t have a problem with a minimum attendance before being eligible for a given rank, provided it’s reasonable. I mean schools that allow students to earn rank just by attending.
Rank should be earned by demonstrating improved technique that correlates with a defined curriculum.
You mentioned schools not wanting people to train at other schools. I've been out of the dojo sitting for a long time and about two years ago I started calling around to schools that have similar systems that I trained in. All but one of them said" we prefer a blank slate." Or something to that effect. All but one said no to the question of an open door policy ( for those who don't know, that means letting people from other schools come in and see what your school is about). School's not allowing cross training is a big red flag for me!
If anyone wants to hear it I can go into detail about how my instructors open door policy benefited me greatly. For now I think my comment has been long enough.