Jesus as a Serpent? How to Find Jesus in the Old Testament part 3
Вставка
- Опубліковано 18 жов 2024
- How is the bronze serpent a type of Christ? Jesus said, “as moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so the Son of Man must be lifted up”. We can learn how to see types of Christ when we see that Jesus is not only giving us an analogy but wonderful insights into how we can discover types of Christ in the Old Testament. This is part 3 in the long series on Jesus in the OT, watch the whole series to learn all the principles of how to find Jesus in the OT.
Link to this series playlist: • How to Find Jesus in t...
Your excitement for scripture is contagious. ☺️
I just recently got back into following Christ. Had a rough couple of years outside of the word of God and he has led me back. Thank you for your teachings! Keep up the good work. God bless you!
Mike, I just want to say that your channel is such a tremendous blessing to me and is by far my favorite channel. The way you teach is amazing and I love that you back it up with Scripture. I learn a lot from your channel and watch every video that you do and have watched many of them more than once. Thank you so much for taking the time to do these videos and for sharing your gift of teaching with the rest of us. Thank you very much! God Bless you...I enjoyed this video.
Completely agree!
Mike just gets it...the theology is right, the delivery is right (including moments of appropriate humor), and the priority is right (with a focus on Jesus and how He came to save all of us)!
Mike, I am going through your series of Christ in the Old Testament and it has opened my eyes to a deeper meaning of scripture. I just finished #3. I believe God has given you the Spirit of knowledge. Thank you for these teachings. God bless.
Snake venom is used to make antivenom. So the same thing that can kill you can also heal you when properly used. Jesus's blood is the substance that can kill sin and at the same time heal the sinner who comes to him.
Also, the letter Shin in Hebrew represents both a set of teeth (of a serpent) as well as Fire. Both consume (a mouth consumes, fire consumes). Also, to the wicked, the fire burns and destroys, but to the righteous, the same fire purifies and sanctifies. The very "fiery" concept consumes the evil out of us, but if we are Holy and Humble and Justified, also leaves a remainder behind which is pure and clean before God, allowing us to enter His presence.
might be that fiery = fire = purifying fire/ hellfire = wrath/ death for the unbelievers, life/ salvation for those who take their eyes on the fiery serpent/ Jesus,
just like your picture of venom killing and it's healing, fire that purify gems/ refine gold or silver and burns hay or wood
I've just been preparing a sermon on this topic having made that same connection, guess we think alike.
Hello Mike, I've been following along in my Bible and writing lots of notes! A few Sundays ago, my pastor, who's also named Mike, made a brief fleeting statement about Jesus being the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. This TOTALLY caught my attention! Then one of the women at church told me about Christophanies, and that's all it took for me! I was off and running! God has blessed and anointed you with an extraordinary gift of teaching. I will read the Bible in a new light, not in the old way that I used to read it. God bless you!🕊🙏😊
Your series is becoming a one of my favorites to follow, Mike keep up the wonderful teaching, God Bless:)
Thanks brother!
Hello Mike! Is there a way to contact you?
I just have to say, after years of watching you.. Your childlike love and affection for our Messiah is so refreshing and joyful. Thank you for sharing with us. God is truly using you to bless many hearts. I love this series. I keep watching it when I am in the ruts in my walk and it always helps reignite passion within my own heart. It's so good. God bless you and your family always.
Truly one of the finest expositions on the reciprocation by Christ for the sake of mankind through the gift of his immeasurable suffering on our behalf. Thank you for showing even further foreshadowing of his redemptive work throughout the Tanakh. I pray that the Holy Spirit continue to bless you with his Spirit of Discernment and gift for teaching.
God gave you a gift... wow. Every time I watch one of your lessons my heart is filled with thankfulness and joy towards our Savior Jesus. Your lessons never get old, I could listen literally all day and be upset when it was time to finish. :) I forwarded some of your videos to a friend who's witnessing to a Jewish lady who is a non-believer. I pray it touches her as it has touched me.
I love this series so much. The way the OT and NT is just a way to show how Briliant God is.
“How stinking amazing the Bible is!” Truer words have never been spoken. From just studying it for a few short month I too am blown away by the genius of it. I don’t have the words do describe it except to say no one could have written or inspired those to write it but God. Truly a gift to humanity.
I think I’m just gonna copy and paste “ this is fantastic I’m so so excited “ on every video you’ve made my friend lol ..........god bless you
Mike, may I make a small observation? I perceive God has blessed you with an understanding of His scriptures and His character as a modern day teacher as few I've had the pleasure to come across in my lifetime, in my 68 + years on this earth. I enjoy studying with you.
LOVE this series so much thank you for what you do - your love of Jesus shines bright my friend 💜
I am so excited about this series. I am really appreciating how you teach. I am learning about Jesus first and foremost. I am also learning how to think differently in terms of the physical, tangible action of studying the word. Learning about typology, theology, hermeneutics and so much more including humor, manatacos. I would say I am getting more meat out of my daily reading(chronologically in a year)and find myself more hungry for the word. I am implementing this series into my weekly study habits, re watch at least once, take notes and apply. Thank you for your work and the teams work.
Good morning Mike, this teaching of the Old Testament, a fore shadow of the Truth to come is amazing! In my own mind I see and understand this. As Adam was created, so God has always been with man. Then Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob. Now with Joseph in Egypt, I see God wanted to take His chosen people from them, out from the heathens, so God was with them in their travel to the Promised Land all the way. God has always been with the Kings, the Prophets and then Jesus, the Christ. I see the Serpent on the pole, when the people looked at the Pole, the same way we look at Jesus on the cross, we are healed and saved from death. It is a comparison, It is not an idle as God Himself told Moses to do this. God would never instruct to make idols! He knows what we are like, He made us, He understands us, all our fault and weaknesses. Have a great blessed day.
Why would a compassionate and loving God choose a people?
This channel is such a blessing in my life. My go to UA-cam pastor is Mike, thank you for all the hardwork put into this study. May God bless you and your Ministry 🙏🏽 ❤
This is great. I just watched The Chosen episode that has this conversation with Nicodemus (season 1, ep. 7). Had me choked up!
In Exodus, these were bronze desert adders - very nasty. Being bit by one made you feel like you were on fire, thus the "fiery serpent".
Yes brother yessss! I love how excited you get about the Scriptures! I'm a book nerd and I used to read Harry Potter and Lord of the rings and all those things growing up and I used to think the Bible was boring. As I got older though I finally realized this is THE BOOK. It is amazing. Thanks again for your enthusiasm I am loving this study and love your fire for the Word.
Love this series! I can see your love for God and His word as you teach us how to find Jesus in the OT; your excitement for this makes me excited Thank you !
A white man can’t teach the black man’s Bible history ..The Bible is talking about a nation of people
@Rosie Robinson Your Theology will not withstand Biblical Scholastic Peer review. Don't project your own personal racial prejudices onto others.
Thank you so much for this series Mike. I'm just getting into it but am learning so much. God bless.
*I love these currently going through the entire play list with my BLB app.*
l like your stuff Mike! You are a good preacher! :D _ALL GLORY_ goes to our KING! ~ Vancouver BC
it is neat, when God pulls the veil off....probably one of the most profound statement, in the field of Bible studies...
This was such a blessing to me because I have yet to be able to discern this and it always left me a bit confused. God bless you brother Mike!!!
Just came back to this again and didn’t remember which sermon you did the mr. miyagi explanation on the Old Testament. You’re my favorite bible teacher! In-depth explanation with details like the hanging being after the stoning and delivered in a humble and straightforward way.
Praying for my own 🤓 Biblethinker husband to come soon!
Loved your video on what we all get wrong about morality. Needs to get shared more.
Wow! Beautifully done Thank you. May God continue to bless you in sharing His Word. 🙌
This is feeding my soul. Thank you brother
Great job on this, Bro Mike, it's so exciting to see all thru the word for hundreds of years pictures, types and shadows of Jesus woven throughout so many prophesies that have all been fulfilled in Him!
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Corinthians 5:21. ✌️
Lol, "wax on, wax off"....
"paint the fence" & "sand the floor"! 😎
When I saw Jesus in the book of Psalms, especially what he would do with nature: calming down storms etc, I was a bit confused, and I asked myself if Jesus was really the Son of God or some kind of guy who read the scriptures and acted them out. Soon following, I found studies on Jesus in the scriptures, and I was settled. Blessings to you.
I'm so glad that these have been getting uploaded really quickly
I love these videos and i feel the excitement in You. The only thing is i wish they were longer ❤️
Thank you so much for your solid teaching!
thank you so much pastor mike.i will attempt to watch every video you have on your channel
This is what I thought this passage could also refer to:
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." (Cf. Deut. 21:23)
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
One of these days I’ll learn to watch the entire video before commenting. Lol! Still, it’s good to see we’re on the same page!
Awesome teaching mike
Iam learning a lot from your teachings brother. Tq. God bless you.
LOL! Thanks for clarifying about the snake not representing satan. Ive wanted a snake my whole life and the only reason my family wouldn’t allow me to get one is because they think all snakes are cursed animals and they are all demonic. Now other pastor has truly clarified on this, thanks for that Pastor Mike 🤗
I have nothing against snakes, but i think they might not b safe as a pet. I have heard of people kill by their own snakes. It will help to study about how snakes relate to humans. Maybe they r not like a dog, who express emotions. In order to handle snakes i think its best to be knowledgeable. getting education otherwise it might not be the best decision to get one.
@@Iris.2024 I can’t believe I’m replying to this lol, but actually you can have lots of different kinds of snakes, a lot of them are quite friendly! My favorite is the ball python, which is actually more docile than a puppy!
You are also confusing Satan with lucifer. Satan is part of the sons of God order.
Isn't the Serpent Satan in Genesis? So now all of a sudden he's not? So Moses believed Satan could heal people??? 😂 What a load of rubbish!
@@Peekaboo-Kitty InspiringPhilosophy has a video on this the serpent is a seraphim in Genesis
Excellent!!! This is One of My Favorite Sermons!
"The Reality." Yes, yes, yes! HE is The Reality. :-)
You remind me a little of another of my favorite Bible teachers, Chuck Missler, that passed away in 2018. His teachings are very in-depth and filled with background information. You are cut from the same cloth. I try to be myself.
It's a good cloth to be cut from. ;-)
GLORY TO THE LAMB WHO IS WORTHY!
Love your teaching Mike. God bless 🤗
*I don’t want to reach but the Manna that was given to the Children of Israel and they complained and rejected it in some ways, reminds me of the rejection of the true bread of life. That life would be given to them and they would reject or misuse it’s purpose. Just a thought.*
Love your work. Good show mate. Can't wait to hear more!! God bless!
I just read an article from Mike Heiser on Logos that talked about the ancient perspective on snakes, especially people who just came out of Egypt.
Dr. Michael Heiser has plenty of instruction on UA-cam and has written some great books. The Unseen Realm, Reversing Hermon.
Thank you! Such a blessing!
Mr. Winger. I love your content! But UA-cam is a very inconvenient format for me. I tend to listen to most of my theological teachings on donwloaded podcast format in the car on my daily commute.
Could you please upload all your audio to podcast format.
It would make you content much more accessible and extend your reach dramatically!
I do have a podcast. It is “Bible Thinker” . We continue to upload new (and old) content to the podcast and hope to get everything on there eventually.
There is now a Bible Thinker app
Mike, thank you so much for this.
Thanks, Mike, for this series. Very good. All you do is much appreciated by my wife and myself. We serve the Lord in West Africa. I shepherd a small village church, preaching in another language. Love to hear your clear teaching in OUR heart language. Some of it makes its way into my messages. By the way, assuming you wanted to depict a deadly snake for the thumbnail, I thought I'd let you know that the snake depicted is not the poisonous but rarely fatal coral snake (which is only found in North America), but rather a mountain king snake (also only found in North America), which is harmless to humans. 😀
This series is soo good!
Thanks Pastor Mike
Lifted up as a Flag of Love. 🙌
I love this ministry! I dont understand sometimes comments against prosperity preachers. When God is a God of prosperity, advancement and progress. Poverty is a curse. I pray if God needs to enlighten you in this theme, to be so.
This ministry is a blessing!
Where does the Bible say that poverty is a curse?
It could be putting worldly riches above your relationship with God. " Where your treasure is, that is where your heart is.".
Thank you so much God bless you
Thanks sir loved it!
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. "
-2 Corinthians 5.21
I know it's been a couple years :)
For a song form of this story, check out Michael Card's "Lift Up the Suffering Symbol." Great song.
Thank you for posting this, I looked up the song and love it! God bless you 🕊
Thank you pastor Mike . Is it possible that the Lord is telling us of the simplicity of salvation? Trusting and obeying him is as simple as looking up to bronze serpent to gain salvation.
Repentance
Wow, SO INTERESTING.
I think that the point about not making new theology from the shadows is a really good point.
Thank you ❤
God bless you, good work as always.
Hi Mike,
Do you think its reasonable to go a little further with the bronze serpent passage and say that the Israelites had to "believe" the serpent will save instead of just merely looking at it?
Nice series by the way!
- Koon Han
Exactly.
I think it’s interesting that the people asked Moses to pray for the snakes to be removed but God did not remove them but instead made a way of escape.
They only had to look at it. They had no faith in GOD. These were the same people prophesied would never cross into the promised land. It saved them from the bite, but they gained nothing everlasting. Only the children 20yo or younger crossed into the promised land. The snake happened in the last year of the 40 years in the wilderness. They survived a snakebite to shortly die thereafter. Those who had never grumbled at GOD or worshipped golden calves were the only ones who crossed over - the children . Just like the medical two snakes on the pole now of science hiding behind medicine, it may help you today to run to the image, but nothing everlasting is gained from it. Too many are trusting medicine instead of GOD with the plagues around. Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Psalms 91:3For He will save you from the trap of the fowler,
And from the deadly pestilence.
4He will cover you and completely protect you with His pinions,
And under His wings you will find refuge;
His faithfulness is a shield and a wall.
5You will not be afraid of the terror of night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6Nor of the pestilence that stalks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction (sudden death) that lays waste at noon.
Hello why am I the only one to say the king has no clothes and ask why didn't he mention that It was used as a symbol from God to heal the people! Also the International symbol In medicine to represent healing! Telling the people If you want to be healed you better look to be healed.Its Gods way or the high way ,not your way If you want to be healed by faith.
thank you
Amen..Thank You
I wish you would analyse the typology of the bread and the fish in John 6 and John 21. Good luck!
Love you brother from Wichita ks.
great work Mike. God bless #onebody
I appreciate the Back to the Future reference 👌
Stinking amazing lol so true 🦋🌷🙏🏼💜🙏🏼🌷🦋 thanks Mike
This was very beneficial
I think you should definitely keep the Karate Kid analogy lol 25:27
Teach us!
(Catching up on this older series.)
The portion about the snake lifted up was so fascinating! I always wondered about that. The portion on that gave me some more clarity.
Your love for and wonder at God's Word is also lovely, and encouraging to see. That's how we should all be! God's Word is amazing, in all the connections between the books that we find and in all the way it shows us Jesus. May He have mercy on us if we ever start being bored with such study!
I am loving this series! So, from the future... THANK YOU Pastor Mike!!!
Bless you man..! 💓
John 3:14
Numbers 21:4
2 Kings 18:4
John 3:13
John 8:28
John 12:31
John 18:32
Isaiah 52:13
Galatians 3:13
Deuteronomy 21:22
2 Corinthians 5:21
Colossians 2:14
Matthew 12:40
Luke 11:30
🙌
Great message
Caleb Gibson Let me tell you lady the Bible is not about you white people go to Deuteronomy 13:4-6 And you’re people are call Esau Matter fact read all Deuteronomy..
@Rosie Robinson racial prejudice is certainly not Christian, so try not to inflict yours onto others.
Rosie Robinson, your ugly prejudice has totally perverted and polluted the whole beautiful point of what Mike Winger is teaching about. This should be about unity, not division. I don't care WHAT color you are. If any living breathing human life form came across like you have, I'd be telling them the SAME thing. I'll be praying for you.🙏
Love it!
Thanks, by knowing the Lord Jesus fully helps strengthen my walk with the Lord. Knowing the Lord Jesus is the most important! This is the way to build the relationship with the Lord. If you want to know a person intimately, we have to talk and listen to that person, rest and work with that person. It is so, too, if we want to have an intimate relationship with Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.
Thank you for your interpretations Mike. You can find some synergy with ex-archbishop Paul Wallis available on Y.T
Hi, I was wondering where I can find you talking about moses and the rock?
The key word is "as" from John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" "as" draws in the context of dead man walking who are told to look at the serpent and live. The implementation is, the people on the ground look at what bit them.
When we look at Jesus on the cross we see the totality of the cross.... we see the love of the father, who gave his only begotten son AND we see the actions of everyone on the ground.... we see the friand that betrayed his friend.... we see the lying, we see the people that knew the truth but went alone with the crowd...we see the ones that sought to make Jesus doubt who he was... the scoffing... the iniquity and the sins and we see Jesus becoming sin.... we are literally looking at what bit us.
What bit you? Were you abused to the point that you lost track of who you are?....look to the cross! Did you lie? Did you betray what is good and true? Did you ridicule? Were you cruel? Did greed, anger, bitterness, lust, laziness, or one of a billion things corrupt you? Did your iniquities bind you, blind you, mock you and is it now dragging you to your death? Have you quit the same sin tenthousand times?Look to Jesus and be saved!
He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities!
Amen. Those same people looking at the snake as was prophesied did not gain admittance into the promised land for only the children (20yo and younger) who did not worship the golden calf were allowed to cross the river. Looking at the snake only spared them a short time as this incident with the snakes happened within the last year before crossing into the promised land. They did not know GOD personally and placed their faith in healing in a graven image. Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Having all faith in the two snakes on the pole of the medical field with science hiding behind it may save a life in present day, but it will not give them entry to the promised land, in fact far from it.
30:07 min "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." ~ Archimedes, Greek mathematician, 3rd century BC.
The bronze idol of brass! Hilarious 😂
Being satisfied with what scripture says and reveals is sort of like being satisfied with the manna
Im very interested in this story in particular because it seems to me this story is about Christ being the remedy to the suffering of gods people, what he wanted them to focus on while they went through their troubles, and also that the serpant represented the human and Christ came in human form. Im not sure what else I am missing.
Mike, stop, darnnit! I gotta get sleep. 🤣
I know. Just caught up in his Mark series, over 60 hours. I can’t even guess as to the time he devotes to prepare.
Oh my goodness... at 23.45 you mention "Karate Kid"; a, watching "Cobra Kai" September 2020, the continuation of Karate Kid where the two protagonists are adults reliving the past... so funny that you mentioned this 2 years ago and this is current.
Yes bro. It is Jesus.
Mike, I like your term "Conceptual Typology" in the 23rd minute. it is true that the OT pictures of Christ connect to NT reality. I think that is why Jesus brought up what is arguably a relatively short and obscure story as the one thing to present to Nicodemus about being an true teacher of Israel. The reason for John 3:16 is what John 3:14 depicts. The parallel to Israel's condition and the general human condition is remarkable. The people are all literally dying from snake bites and the serpent in the garden's lie from its mouth is what is killing all of humanity. You can see why Jesus brings it up in light of this most notorious Bible verse, John 3:16. Jesus is about to undo this situation. And it is true that He died for our sins on the cross, but I think He did so much more like give us a way of seeing Him in OT stories that brings inner transformation. Again, put it in the context of the cross. How did Jesus defeat that serpent? Jesus Who knew no sin, became sin 2Co 5:21. The devil had no foothold - no claim in Him per John 14:30. So, Jesus kills death with death by being that man of rest on the cross. You know the story from Exodus 17 - Moses with the hands of faith with the Judean leader on the right and the priestly leader on the left and sitting there using no human-Adam strength. The devil had no "Adam-place" in Jesus. There was nothing for the devil's lie to grab on to in Jesus. And Jesus stayed there loving and forgiving everyone. They tried to get Him to react - lash back like a viper. But He just gave Himself away and crushed death by dying. And this - if seen by hearts by the Holy Spirit - transforms. That is why when the people looked at the serpent on the pole, they were instantly healed. One had immobilized the poison! All they needed to do was behold the one who immobilized what all the other slithering vipers were doing. What a power statement of Who Jesus is! Yes, the best stuff comes from "Conceptual Typology!" Thanks for making Jesus known!
I am only 30 mins in, but I am thinking about when Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees a brood of vipers because they cared more about man-made laws and adherence to those laws more than the state of the heart. Jesus came to dispel those and to usher in a new era where he was the Truth. I apologize if you cover this before I finish watching the rest.
ok, i love your channel, but you just said 'jonah may have died in the fish'... how on earth do you arrive at that conclusion when the story continues afterwards?
Like Christ 3 days in the tomv, Jonah was 3 days in the whale. Death brought forth life.
Hello pastor what free online Bible class that I can take?
In Genesis 3 the Serpent (Satan incarnate) tempts mankind into disobedience, sin and death...In contrast, the biblical scripture regarding the lifted bronze serpent, being looked upon, brings forgiveness and salvation of earthly life and serves as a prelude to a lifted Jesus providing mankind salvation through repentance faith and obedience...How wonderful that God takes the serpent and repurposes it from offering damnation to salvation!!
Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. - Archimedes
you helped bring me back to faith, but i want to be catholic, not protestant as i once was. i truly believe they are the one church.
I’m so happy to hear that I helped bring you back to faith!! It’s an honor! I can understand the natural pull toward what you experienced within Catholicism and if I can make a suggestion I would ask that you consider watching my series on Catholicism. It’s definitely not an attack on Catholic people but it does raise issues that I think are important to think about. ua-cam.com/play/PLZ3iRMLYFlHvsToYQdfDkiDE6dPkouIv3.html
ive seen all your videos on them, and then i confronted them about these issues, i wanted to prove them wrong and youre videos inspired me to do that. but they sat down and explained how you misrepresented them. they told me how the pope is actually only infallible when speaking ex cathedra, and doesnt create new doctrines when he speaks in this way but confirms an interpretation or a oral tradition. the pope has also only spoken in ex cathedra seven times in 2000 years. they told me the historic facts like how we came to the biblical cannon of the NT, there were 100s of books but the catholics chose which ones we read, if we have faith in the selection we must agree the church that selected it has atleast some power
I am trying to understand you carefully but it seems to me that you may have missed the point of some of what I shared. The issue of when the pope is infallibly speaking seems unrelated to my content or reasons for rejecting some Catholic teachings. As far as how we got the Bible I have some videos on that as well, but it should be noted that the story you were told is rather different than the actual history of the New Testament. Anyhow, I am sensitive to how heavy and important this issue is and I don’t want to try to overstep so let me just say a bit more and I’ll leave you with what content I have produced online (because I really do think it stands up under scrutiny). Here’s my last thought... I have been accused of misrepresenting Catholicism in the following blog and I responded to this in the comments of that same blog. I think you will find that accusations of misrepresentation are simply untrue and an unfair and unwise way of ignoring my points. Here’s a link to the blog where me and a Catholic defender went back and forth (please see the comments I left at the end). This should give you a good example of how the challenge, “Mike misrepresented Catholicism” doesn’t hold up. phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2016/02/when-youtubers-misrepresent-catholic.html?m=1
i wasnt saying you spoke on papapl infallability, just sayinmg they educated me on it
Dave unbelievable I was wondering if they shared the scripture that supports the infallibility of the pope?
GOOOD STUFFF!!!
Oh, and um...sorry for shouting.
Archimedes said, "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." ✌️
Something that I think is overlooked is in Deuteronomy passages like Mike quoted around 21:00, as if speaks of the inheritance God is giving the people, and the word inheritance is used multiple times. Well, you normally only inherit something when the original owner dies, so even that being repeated is a prophecy of the death of God. I brought this up to one of my pastors a few years ago and he just kinds nodded his head 'yep that's true' I thoguht the Holy Spirit mgiht have revealed something new to me, but nope it is well known by pastors but no so much by lay folk.