Honestly, I could listen to Galu answering Jess's questions with regards to Lord of the Rings all day. Enjoying this new style of content for the channel!
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Thank you! I'll do better to be a bit more animated in future editions. 😀
Enjoying this tremedously! I think having both of you on is working well - the conversational format makes it feel like a nice, nerdy chat with friends.
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Thank you very much! I know Jess is loving it. I have enjoyed it more than I thought I would!
13:20 I'd also imagine that Jackson wanted to build up the threat of a fully-powered Sauron who has the ring. For most audience members they wouldn't really understand why you-cannot-let-Sauron-have-the-ring-ever if all it takes to "defeat" him is a couple of particularly skilled warriors. You'd then need to explain how the ring isn't just about Sauron's personal combat prowess; which would drag down the prologue and probably overwhelm people with information in an already information-dense few minutes. The way the prologue goes, the implication is that Sauron can personally destroy armies when he has the ring, and that he was only defeated previously by miraculous circumstance (and a bit of hubris). Which isn't really the whole story, but it's enough to establish stakes for the average moviegoer.
No Erendil, but one Elendil and one Eärendil, who is included in the same family tree after all. I did find it odd how the court of Númenor treated Elendil and Isildur on the show. "Oh you are some upstart from the west?" As opposed to one of the chief vassals of the realm who would be recognisable to everyone
Very much enjoyed this discussion. A comment on the "don't go west" that Elendil was talking about to Isildur, i think that was meant as "Don't worry about the west, there is nothing there for us" aka. stay faithful, don't be tempted.
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Hadn't thought of it like that. So Isildur is thinking "why don't we sail to Valinor" and Elendil is setting him straight. I like it. 👍
8:00 Technically, many of the Gondorian (and Amrothian) nobles lived beyond 100, because their bloodlines were somewhat purer. But yeah, there's a lot of sneaky eugenics in Tolkien's works.
Thank you both. I also want to avoid the drama and carnage which has surrounded this show. Thanks for helping us to understand the lore vs the show. I am a 50+ year fan of JRRT and just want to enjoy this series despite the obvious limitations of clearance and lack of cannon on this time period.
It's nice to see you trying to make sense out of what little the show gives us in terms of lore. Such a shame Amazon wasn't given the rights to the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, it feels like that has already created more questions and problems than is necessary and good for the story
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Completely agree. There is an awesome story to be told here but they don't have the right to 90% of it. It would be like making a story about Jesus but you only have rights to his birth and death so you have to make up the 30 years in between.
Totally agree with you about the whole "what I like/didn't like" aspect of the show. Really love the set up about the whole lore aspect. I'm having a bit of an internal ongoing bet with which (if any) characters will become the Ringwraiths or even the witch king
Good to discuss the "evil" of Morgoth. Tolkien's cosmology is really interesting. But I think you do Morgoth a bit of an injustice. Perhaps I'm off, but I always interpreted Morgoth as a sort of classical resentful son archetype. All the Ainur were created by Eru Illuvatar and imbued with power, seemingly under the assumption that they would cooperate to express their power in the creation of a world that would satisfy Eru. Essentially, they are subsequent and subservient to Eru. And the greatest tool of creation, the so-called "secret fire" that gives souls and imbues "true" life is withheld from them. So, I have always read Morgoth, being described as one who is smarter, stronger, more powerful than the other Valar, as an individual that wants to distinguish himself from his creator. He wants to create something for himself and resents being forced to be a part of something else. But because he can't do that, not really, his only recourse is cruel mockery and destruction. Tolkien is never simple with the way his characters fall. As you point out, Sauron wanted to create order for good, but resorted to domination when it proved too difficult to achieve that in other ways. And Saruman was given the task of opposing Sauron, and fell because he decided the best way to do that was to join him, betray him, and take his place because he would be a preferable alternative to Sauron. I think it would be a shame to give Morgoth less motivational depth.
Just wanted to say thank you for both for doing this new series and for all the work and content you’ve provided of the years! 1.) As huge fan of your channel for its lore coverage and explanations, it’s exciting to see at least some of your thoughts and perspectives are on Amazon’s take on things, however… 2.) I am also very glad you’re taking a very neutral approach to this. As much as I’d love to hear your full thoughts and feelings on everything, please continue to keep it in the format or neither praise nor complaint. Especially since, like you said, it’s just more fun to generally discuss Lengendarium stuff and see you take advantage of this opportunity to do so. 3.) After years leaning on the knowledge you’ve imparted through your older videos, I feel hard pressed more than ever to get off my backside to read the all the additional works (Silmarillion, Fall of Gondolin, etc) to better my understanding and working memory on these fantastic stories. Thank you so so much again for everything!
Good content, Galu! Just saying somethings here, I really agree with you about that, Isildur is not one of the main lords in Númenor? In the book he was even one of the top members at Tar-Palantír's council. Even Ar-Pharazôn kept him at the council for a while (at least untill Sauron arrived...). Andünie is spoken at the series (at least indirectly because of the all coyprights thing) when Elendil or Isildur (now I don't remember) are talking about Anarion being at the west (a lot of people forgot that Anarion is on the series). I guess the series changed all of it to make the "secrecy" thing about the faithfull at Númenor more emotional attached for the audience, but in the lore it wasn't so secret at all, for example, Ar-Pharazôn sent the faithfull at island of Númenor to Rómenna as exiles (and of course, most of them came from Andünie), and many númenorian colonies, mostly those to the north, were majorily inhabited by the faithful (just like Dol-Amroth, Pelargir, and problably Lond Daer and Tharbad).
I do believe people of Gondor to be slightly longer lived than the average middle-man. Faramir grew to be 120 for instance. That might still be more against the current though, so I guess it is fair to say the average Gondorian has a similar lifespan to other humans.
Absolutely spectacular video, I love the editing and how you use shading on the middle earth map to focus on stuff you're talking about, for instance the mountains of mordor.
On pronunciation: according to the appendices, stress works like this: In all two-syllable words it falls on the first syllable (VAlar, GONdor, ROhan, MAiar, …), and in all other words it falls on the third-to-last syllable (so it‘s eRESsëa, Orome, VAlinor, …) _except_ when the second-to-last syllable contains a consonant cluster or accented vowel in which case _it_ gets the stress (so it‘s eLENdil, aMANdil, braGOLlach, etc). It should be noted that Tolkien himself isn‘t super consistent though. Some rhymes for example don‘t make sense with narGOTHrond, and I think there are a few more instances of this. Also, I really like the way you're covering the show. None of the bs drama, just having fun talking Tolkien. That's what we _ought_ to be here for, anyway.
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I know of the stress rules I just have never been very good of applying them! Thank you nevertheless! I always find it hilarious when super fans call out incorrect pronunciation when we have a documented interview with Tolkien where he repeatedly mispronounces Sauron as sore-ron. If the creator himself doesn't stick to his own rules, what hope do we all have!
@ I can totally see myself sitting in Tolkien's garage trying to have a conversation and we're just constantly correcting each other's pronunciation :D T'is the burden of being a pedant.
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@@ciryatar Here here! I used to be much more pedantic with the pronunciation when I was younger. Then time passed and I myself forgot the rules very quickly when I stopped actively trying to learn it and now I realise it is a fool's game to try and be correct 100% of the time. Still, there are the odd words, like Eressea, that make me just think "I should just bloody look up how to say it!", for that, I thank you for setting me straight finally!
The reason Aragorn finds a seedling was because the Gondorians deliberately planted fruits from the White Tree in case it died. The one in the War of the Ring is actually the third of Gondor. As for Morgoth, he went from 'I want to rule' to 'if I can't have it, nobody can' pretty early on. If he had won, everyone and everything would have been destroyed. He is undeniably, unmitigatedly evil, even if his fall can be understood.
Really enjoyed this video, thanks for doing it. Just to add a bit more to the question of Elendil's family's importance, they are direct descendents of Elros the first Numenorean king. If I remember correctly the 4th king of Numenor's oldest child was a woman, Silmarien, but at the time it was the oldest male child who became King. So her family was basically the realms second royal house and were given the title of Lord of Andunie. They were given the sceptre of Annuminas which would later be held by the Kings of Arnor, the sword Narsil which cut the ring from Sauron and was later reforged into Aragorn's sword Anduril, and the ring of Barahir which Aragorn wore that marked him as the heir to the Gondorian/Arnorien thrones.
There's an excellente dialogue where Faramir explains how the gondorians are no longer like the Edain, they are now men of the twilight (this in relation with the Rohirrim and the mingling of the 2 peoples).
Honestly I am not watching the series nor do I intend to, but I do enjoy listening to you two explaining the lore, it is a good format. Looking forward to future explain videos.
Love your lore stuff man. I’ve watched your LotR Lore playlist in its entirety multiple times. I’m still not sure about this show. I’ll obviously watch it, but it’s disappointing that the Silmarillion rights were not obtained before giving this show the ‘go ahead’.
It seems the current Tolkien estate has zero interest in selling the rights to the Silmarillion. Half a billion dollars didn't persuade them. Maybe one day.
Really enjoying this new content! It's really interesting seeing the questions Jess has raised that you can take for granted knowing some of the history. Great idea keeping it lore based as well
While what Galu said about the Gondorians is true, they still lived longer than any other Middle men or North men because of their Numenorian blood (even if it was fading). Faramir lived up to 120 years if im not mistaken, while Bard the bowman died in his 30ies
Liking the video podcasts. 👍 Your middle earth lore vids are the best! I like that you're not getting political, there's enough of that on youtube. I'm just here for the escapism and lore dives.
Enjoying the discussion on the series so far! Would be great to have a retrospective discussion of season 1 as a whole after it wraps up with some likes/dislikes and speculation on where various things might go in later seasons e.g. I can see several characters being introduced later on (Glorfindel, Celeborn, Amandil & Anarion, second Blue Wizard - if that is the Stranger's true identity) that Amazon probably didn't want to introduce so many at once for the average watcher.
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We will see what kind of traction these lore based discussions get and take a view. I am hesitant to talk about the show as a show (rather than just talking about "what really happened") because I can't be bothered with the vitriol that comes with that. :-P Maybe when I was younger I would've have ploughed through but I seek a nice relaxing mid-life period if possible!
Great video guys. Would be great to see Halbrand get a story arch where he gets turned by Sauron into the Witch-king. Thanks Jess for persuading Galu to do these vids, very insightful.
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I like the theory that he is going to become the King of the Dead. The Witch-king was said to be a pure blooded Numenorean so Halbrand becoming the WK would be against the story. It is amazon's story though so they might change it.
@ I didn't think about The King of the Dead and that's an excellent theory. Fits his reverse Aragorn vibe quite well. Quick point of lore since I looked it up while watching the show: The Witch King isn't explicitly named as a Numenorean, it seems he is just generally assumed to be one of the three Numenoreans numbered among the Nazgul. Really enjoying the discussion of lore on the show minus the usual vitriol.
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@@Esquarious Indeed, the community is sort of in silent agreement that the WK is a Numenorean but you are correct, he is never stated to outright be one, I should amend my earlier comment.
Another critic. The series condensed two timelines into one, the first one during the forging of the Rings of Power (and The One) during Queen/Tar Telperiën's reign and another one, the late Tar-Palantír's reign, and Tar-Míriel and then Ar-Pharazôn, the last king of Númenor. However, some aspects that were presented at these two timelines weren't included (at least yet), both in the timeline of the Queen/Tar Telperiën, and the King/Tar Minastir after her (his aunt), Númenor already had a bunch of colonies at the Middle-Earth western coast. Umbar was already there, being the biggest one, Lond Daer and Tharbad were the first two colonies founded by King/Tar Aldarion centuries before Telperiën. But in the series it seems like Númenor is completely isolated from the world, you know, they don't know nothing (even by having a bunch of Palantíri) about Halbrand, or the Elves (okay, they already hate them, but for God sake, even Galadriel don't know nothing about them at all?). I don't know, it seems like the show is making an allegory of nowadays UK after the Brexit, or something like that, but Númenor during that time was at the peak of its power, and even during Tar-Telperiën's reign they were already presented at the Middle-Earth and weren't isolated from the continent at all.
24:00 Actually, the mountains of Mordor kind of resemble Indonesia and the Philippines if you look at the map upside down (with the Great Dividing Range in Australia as the Misty Mountains, and the Papuan mountains as Ered Nimrais). - Adûnâi
Question.. the scene with the puppeteer looks like a foreshadowing of an event to come, is there such an event? Galadriel and Tal-Miriel fighting together?
I have never read any of the books, but thanks to your lore videos, i find myself knowing more than I thought I did. I now consider myself an expert in the uninitiated.
I believe a slight correction is in order for Morgoth. My recollection is that he was most like Eru (where all the other Ainur represented only aspects of the One). But he could not create of his own will, and being most like iluvatar, this caused incredible frustration at his limitations, and jealously regarding the creations of others who were content to make their own works, understanding that Iluvatar worked through them. This caused him to manifest discord in the music of the Ainur, and work to destroy, steal, and mock their creations in Middle Earth.
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I didnt want to get into the real nitty gritty for what is supposed to be a brief introduction to characters. You will likely find many "corrections". It is intended to be an "explain like I'm five" introduction. Not a 2 hour long discussion of every character. Corey Olsen does that well enough without needing me to!
I have a question which perhaps you could shed some light on. Galu has said before that there are no hobbits in the second age, and that their presence in the show is purely an Amazon decision. But wouldn't they have been present prior to the Third Age. Didn't Eru create them at the beginning of time? We could just assume that prior to the Third Age, they were of no consequence and therefore never mentioned in any of the great tales.
Good video! I have a question about the animal the orcs use against the captured elves - it's clearly a very stylised beast with weird bug-eyes and an unusually ferocious look about it. Based on the lore is this supposed to be a 'regular' wolf/dog and it was the creators' choice to render it in this more stylised way, or is it a specific fantasy wolf/dog thing which exists in the LotR universe?
It's supposed to be a warg. Wargs are large, evil wolves that have their own language (at least some of them, during the time of The Hobbit) and often work together with orcs.
In films the orcs are seen in different colours in the films is there a distinct reason why they are different in the show ? Or are they like the early version of them?
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No lore reason behind it, just artistic licence on the part of the creators.
@ o I see thanks for answering my question! I hope you have a nice day! I truly appreciate your videos they are great fun to listen to and watch all the many years I have been a fan
To add some more lore info to Galu's comment: the way Jackson and Amazon presented orcs isn't really in line with Tolkien to begin with. According to his descriptions they should be broad, squat, and flat-nosed, with "sallow" skin. I.e. picture super beautiful elves, cripple their posture, make them broad and ugly, and give them an unhealthy skin tone and ya got yerself some orcs. The unfortunate implication alongside this though is the fact that Tolkien qualified this description by saying that they look like perversions of the "(to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". He wasn't a racist (quite explicitly so), and I see this mostly as a mixture of ignorance and carelessness (which isn't great, to be clear, even in some random letter), but it's obvious why even hinting in that direction would be quite problematic. So Jackson went with his own look, which IMO is quite superb. But it's not what Tolkien describes, so any deviations from that look by Amazon can also not be explained with Tolkien lore.
The ban of the Valar was a necessity. Sauron wrought Numenor's doom no matter what happened even if Eru had not acted. They fight the forces of Valinor and lose and it's over. But emerging as victors would not have removed Eru's themes in the Ainulindale and "the doom of men" to depart the circles of the world. At some point the Numeorean victors expecting to live forever in Valinor would not be able to stop their spirits departure and the place eventually being inhabited by animated zombies in effect, which Melkor would probably say, aren't you one of mine and for certain wide open to possession by powerful "houseless" spirits. Bilbo and Frodo were granted a very special grace for such mortal beings.
An actual correction. You had to tiptoe a bit around the eugenics part of Dunedain blood and how Gondor mixed their blood and lost their longevity, but it isn’t actually true. It is brought up in universe as a theory with the whole Kinstrife civil war in Gondor, but intermarriage with other men isn’t actually shown at all to cause the degradation of their long lives. It is feared too, but the truth is that it is just the dark deeds. So there are ideas of eugenics proposed, but Tolkien actually makes sure to slap them down.
the grace is preserved in blood, but turning away from it robs it forever, case in point those most corrupted, the dark numenorians lost most of their might and majesty real quick, compared to the faithful
Interesting your point about 'he isn't evil, he just wants things.' I think thats how most evil happens tbh - entitlement. i just want this land, i just want this wealth, and all the death and destruction and slavery is ancillary to me getting it
I think the Peter jackson film did film Gil Galad's death, and more of Elendil, according to actors and some stills that exist showing it, but was cut for age ratings etc. Either way, I am excited to see Elendil develop through this show now to that point, and these videos are very helpful :)
Fantastic content, and always has been! One question, perhaps for discussion on the next episode, if I may - concerning the story that is building around Arondir and Theo. There seems to be a growing number of parallels between the two, and of Turin and Beleg, as if to be a subtle nod to content outside of Amazon’s reach. Do you think this may be the case? Would be very interested to hear your thoughts.
i thought the kings men and the faithfull started much after the creation of the rings.... but i guess the show must show it to us this way to make us familliar with elendil and his sons
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Yeah the show is condensing all of Numenor's 3000 years into just the shows runtime. I.E the life of just Elendil.
I was happy to see that they really played up the difference between Uruks and Orcs. These guys _really_ hate bright sunlight. In your opinion, are the elves... elvish enough? I know Legolas was overplayed, but the Elves really come off as humans. No otherworldly, mystic, supernatural air about them. 7 of the best Noldor against a snow troll? IDK...
Greetings from Poland. Few questions/thoughts about episode 4 you may use for new discussion. Warning about possible spoilers ;) Narsil was presented to us ;) lets see if they will keep the detail going appropriately. Someone noticed axe and shield of Tuor. Could you please remind a bit in next review who Tuor was? I am disappointed how they conduct time pacing in the show. This is very visible with Eregion and smith construction there - just in few days they managed to adavnce greatly entire new structure? Quite ridiculous. Numenor is going to challenge Sauron but... When rings will be made? If they will take Sauron hostage how he will create the rings? That is not connecting to any proper book/appendix chronology... What do you think? See you on Monday I hope :)
You're thinking of the House of Ulfang, though that may be one of the sons, with one of Uldor, Ulfast, and Ulwarth being the father. I could be wrong about the exact names though, as I'm doing it from memory.
My friend can you help answer this please! We have the moment in the show i am completley confused! We have Ost-in-Edhill and kingdom of Eregion at the same time we have Kings men in Numenor and Ar-Pharazon the golden and Elendil and i dont understand this at all. By SA 1699 all of Eriador fell under Sauron's control, Imladris was besieged, as were the Grey Havens and Lindon was cut off from Rivendell and Khazad-dûm. And Sauron was close to Lindon as well he conquer a lot of land and Elves are almost losing the war. But then Númenor arrived, sent by Tar-Minastir and commanded by Ciryatur, which landed in Lindon, at Tharbad on the Gwathló, and in the south near Pelargir. Sauron's forces were driven back from the Grey Havens, and retreating to the Gwathló found their way blocked by the second Númenórean army. But show showing to us only the time of Kings men Numenorians and they didint fight in the wars of Sauron and Elves and show put us in time where Numenorians banned Elves from Iland . So this that mean we will not see that fight. But Ost-in-Edhil is there and war will come so i am completley confused
Did the Silmarillion copyright stop them doing anything with the blue wizards. When this Amazon project was first mooted many assumed that they might be the focus.
Was Tar Palantir ever deposed in the way the show alludes to? Or did he die on the throne in Tolkien's writings? As a theory from me, I still think the show will depict the war of Sauron and the Elves with Numenor coming out of isolation to save the elves (if that was what you were lamenting about the show possibly not showing due to the skewed timelines) but this will be the last straw for Miriel who orders it and will make Pharazon king either by Elves snubbing Numenor in some way or purely the anger of the people geting involved in a war that they view does not concern them.
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The story in the lore would make excellent tele although it is very dark. Tar-Palantir dies of natural causes and Pharazon, who is Miriels cousin forces her to marry him and he surplants her as rightful ruler. She pretty much falls out of the story after that and she dies in the downfall. The forced marriage might be too dark for the show though.
Is the imrahil that isildur is with on the boat the same prince of Dol amroth or is it a different character completely?
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It is a different person. Not even amazon's time bending story can bring that Imrahil to Numenor. It is just there to show that Imrahil's name is not unique just like we have many people called the same name.
You should have Jess in each video, she adds a non ‘lore-mastermind’ like your fantastic brain displays that makes these extra enjoyable. Plus she’s your wife so why not. Haha.
I love how we have a "real fan" who represents the people invested in the lore and your "pretend fan" who doesnt care much about how they are stomping over lore but just wants to understand it a bit more and have some of their questions answered. It covers both sides of the discussion very well. Side note: I hate using "real fan" and "pretend fan" terminology but it makes it easier and we all know which means which so please dont attack me for those terms. Sadly it shows how divisive the show has become
ulfang betrayed the elves and humans of the Alliance of Maedhros, Bor stayed faithful, but I believe he and all his followers perished. Ulfang was “rewarded” with Hithlum.
At this point in the story, are the Numenorians at all concerned with Sauron's return? Or is that more a thing the elves concern themselves about? I ask this because I expect Galadriel is going to team up with the Faithful to hunt Sauron/bad guys, but I'm not sure to what extent she'll have to convince them of this threat or of Sauron's existence.
Early on, circa SA 883, Gil-galad writes a letter to warn the then King, Meneldur, of the return of evil. The Numenoreans begin to make a harbour in Middle-earth, called Lond Daer. Eventually, in SA 1700, they send a great fleet to help in the war of the Elves and Sauron. (Most of this is in Unfinished Tales, 'Aldarion and Erendis'.) At a guess Galadriel's visit is taking the place of Gil-galad's warning. Possibly the prophesy was about this, i.e. that an Elf coming to Numenor would portend the rise of Sauron.
What is it about Mordor that makes Sauron choose it as his 'base of operations'?
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How stupidly easy it is to defend because of its unnatural shape, mountain borders and the fact that every human east of Mordor is on Saurons side or under his control.
"Not really evil," just in direct opposition to the will of the Creator and convinced that his own way is the best. I expect we'll see a Paradise Lost-style novel soon! Haha.
I think Sauron is split into 3. I think that was the way he was hiding. The sword could be an artifact to fully recontruct him. They correspond to where the 3 Silmarils were lost. The Sea. Halbrand. The Earth. Adar. And the Sky. Stranger.
I know the channel is winding down, but I think there would be a substantial percentage of your audience who would quite enjoy watching you and Jess play games together. As a team, against each other, same computer, different computers with split screen videos, anything you like really. I know I'd watch it. Keep up the videos you two, really enjoying them, reminds me of me pausing the show to explain points to my other half!
Are they excluded from using Umbar, Harad and Rhun etc. Some of the characters would work better if they were a southern, more tropical population, elves, dwarves and hobbits from the south east. Does the Silmarillion copyright block that. I know that in the wars of the past some were taken or sold south by Morgoth and Sauron. That would make some of the depiction more viable.
Definitely it could have done so much better with more background lore to fill in and flesh out the world, but that’s no fault of the show considering they literally can’t haha. Still has been and alright watch
Very enjoyable, I don't enjoy the show due to its many flaws, but this content is quite good and an interesting way to approach the series. Subscribing.
Seems to me that it's way too early to condemn a show that is establishing a world and its characters. I quite like it as it is so far even though not much action is happening. I also really enjoyed the Fellowship of the Ring whereas a lot of people I've talked to think it was too boring. It's too soon to outright say the show is bad or good.
Exactly. Ultimately, as J.R.R. Tolkien wrote, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
Thanks for sharing your opinion, I agree. I think it is much too early to judge the entire concept on 3 episodes, I'm sure there will be excitement to come once the base has been established.
@@wintersnoob I mean, we just got introduced to Numenor last episode. Not everyone has read the books. Game of thrones started off slow as well. Like I said in my initial post, I like it already, so it can only get better once all the fun action begins. They're already on the right track by going back to what made LOTR great, and avoiding the tragedy that is The Hobbit (i.e., All CGI orcs). I'm optimistic.
They have a golden opportunity to make it so none of the characters are "obviously" Sauron. He can shape shift and hasn't been seen in hundreds of years anyway. I want him to be a totally insignificant character that you would never think is Sauron and them BOOM, it is him. Great opportunity for an amazing reveal. Adar is too obviously evil to be Sauron and it would be such a waste.
Tolkien devoted a large portion of his life to developing the mythical world of Middle Earth. He drew inspiration from his real life experiences of fighting in WWI, the close friendships he maintained through his love of literature even the love of his life, his wife Edith inspired the stories of Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen. During the making of the Lord of the Rings trilogy there were always copies of the books on set to be used as reference for the director and the actors, even to the last day of filming. Peter Jackson and almost everyone in a high level position had read the books, loved them and were very respectful of the canon and lore. The writing and dialogue in TROP is not anywhere near as interesting and at times is as they say, cringeworthy. There will always be an audience for bad television/cinema. Not everyone is able to appreciate a masterpiece. Many prefer a simple story with lots of violence and gratuitous sex and Hollywood is more than happy to oblige. TROP is bad storytelling with bad writing, way too much CGI, and way too little love of the lore. That a couple of 40 something producers would fail to understand the importance of canon and lore versus pc and wokeness doesn't surprise me at all, being offensive while feigning being offended is a characteristic of their generation. I had really hoped they would produce a show that, given the obscene budget, would have approached the quality of the books and the Peter Jackson trilogy. A lifetime to write the stories and a singularly epic success of turning them into cinema. That is why people who CAN appreciate a masterpiece love the books and trilogy and do not love TROP. We are not racists we are lovers of the lore. Have diversity in the casting, I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with are people who resemble Romans with pointed ears....with Elven warriors wearing slightly modified football helmets....with "Our hearts are bigger than our feet!" hardly quote-worthy....Ugh! I don't believe I can bear 5 more episodes so I'm cutting my losses and skipping the rest. I sincerely hope that someone in the future, who does love Middle Earth, will try again. These are stories that need to be seen as well as heard because they are singularly epic mythology!
@ No question. Or is making a statement in your comment section not allowed?
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@@paulr935 Well, I had hoped people who comment on the video might comment on the video and not the show - given that this is not a review nor a discussion of the shows quality; or otherwise. I didn't burden you with my opinion of the show, why must I be burdened with yours?
Honestly, I could listen to Galu answering Jess's questions with regards to Lord of the Rings all day. Enjoying this new style of content for the channel!
Thank you!
I'll do better to be a bit more animated in future editions. 😀
Yes now he won't leave us.
@ No need. You are fine.
Enjoying this tremedously! I think having both of you on is working well - the conversational format makes it feel like a nice, nerdy chat with friends.
Thank you very much! I know Jess is loving it. I have enjoyed it more than I thought I would!
@ well, she's the plucky rookie to your jaded veteran, with one day left on the force. It's a classic dynamic. :D
@@Soren015 Hahaha, seems like we just need our own TV show in the 80s and we've got it made!
If only we'd started doing this sooner!
13:20 I'd also imagine that Jackson wanted to build up the threat of a fully-powered Sauron who has the ring. For most audience members they wouldn't really understand why you-cannot-let-Sauron-have-the-ring-ever if all it takes to "defeat" him is a couple of particularly skilled warriors. You'd then need to explain how the ring isn't just about Sauron's personal combat prowess; which would drag down the prologue and probably overwhelm people with information in an already information-dense few minutes.
The way the prologue goes, the implication is that Sauron can personally destroy armies when he has the ring, and that he was only defeated previously by miraculous circumstance (and a bit of hubris). Which isn't really the whole story, but it's enough to establish stakes for the average moviegoer.
Fully agree. :-)
No Erendil, but one Elendil and one Eärendil, who is included in the same family tree after all.
I did find it odd how the court of Númenor treated Elendil and Isildur on the show. "Oh you are some upstart from the west?" As opposed to one of the chief vassals of the realm who would be recognisable to everyone
Numenorians wanted long lives, but the valar only gave them about tree fiddy. XD
Yeah, I head about dat Lossarnach monster!!
Very much enjoyed this discussion. A comment on the "don't go west" that Elendil was talking about to Isildur, i think that was meant as "Don't worry about the west, there is nothing there for us" aka. stay faithful, don't be tempted.
Hadn't thought of it like that. So Isildur is thinking "why don't we sail to Valinor" and Elendil is setting him straight. I like it. 👍
This format gives you a good excuse to extend your channels timeline. Very enjoyable and enlightening.
I would agree 😏 but we'll see on that front 🤞
Indeed I am enjoying these discussions. Mad props on the editing with highlights and stuff, it really elevates the whole thing.
8:00
Technically, many of the Gondorian (and Amrothian) nobles lived beyond 100, because their bloodlines were somewhat purer. But yeah, there's a lot of sneaky eugenics in Tolkien's works.
Thank you both. I also want to avoid the drama and carnage which has surrounded this show. Thanks for helping us to understand the lore vs the show. I am a 50+ year fan of JRRT and just want to enjoy this series despite the obvious limitations of clearance and lack of cannon on this time period.
So it is.
8:39 aww the pride on Jess's face correcting Galu! ;-)
It's nice to see you trying to make sense out of what little the show gives us in terms of lore.
Such a shame Amazon wasn't given the rights to the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, it feels like that has already created more questions and problems than is necessary and good for the story
Completely agree. There is an awesome story to be told here but they don't have the right to 90% of it.
It would be like making a story about Jesus but you only have rights to his birth and death so you have to make up the 30 years in between.
@ Which is kinda exactly what we only have in the bible if i remember correctly. 30 years or so that are not talked about:D
Totally agree with you about the whole "what I like/didn't like" aspect of the show. Really love the set up about the whole lore aspect.
I'm having a bit of an internal ongoing bet with which (if any) characters will become the Ringwraiths or even the witch king
Good to discuss the "evil" of Morgoth. Tolkien's cosmology is really interesting. But I think you do Morgoth a bit of an injustice.
Perhaps I'm off, but I always interpreted Morgoth as a sort of classical resentful son archetype. All the Ainur were created by Eru Illuvatar and imbued with power, seemingly under the assumption that they would cooperate to express their power in the creation of a world that would satisfy Eru. Essentially, they are subsequent and subservient to Eru. And the greatest tool of creation, the so-called "secret fire" that gives souls and imbues "true" life is withheld from them. So, I have always read Morgoth, being described as one who is smarter, stronger, more powerful than the other Valar, as an individual that wants to distinguish himself from his creator. He wants to create something for himself and resents being forced to be a part of something else. But because he can't do that, not really, his only recourse is cruel mockery and destruction.
Tolkien is never simple with the way his characters fall. As you point out, Sauron wanted to create order for good, but resorted to domination when it proved too difficult to achieve that in other ways. And Saruman was given the task of opposing Sauron, and fell because he decided the best way to do that was to join him, betray him, and take his place because he would be a preferable alternative to Sauron. I think it would be a shame to give Morgoth less motivational depth.
Beautifully said!
Just wanted to say thank you for both for doing this new series and for all the work and content you’ve provided of the years!
1.) As huge fan of your channel for its lore coverage and explanations, it’s exciting to see at least some of your thoughts and perspectives are on Amazon’s take on things, however…
2.) I am also very glad you’re taking a very neutral approach to this. As much as I’d love to hear your full thoughts and feelings on everything, please continue to keep it in the format or neither praise nor complaint. Especially since, like you said, it’s just more fun to generally discuss Lengendarium stuff and see you take advantage of this opportunity to do so.
3.) After years leaning on the knowledge you’ve imparted through your older videos, I feel hard pressed more than ever to get off my backside to read the all the additional works (Silmarillion, Fall of Gondolin, etc) to better my understanding and working memory on these fantastic stories.
Thank you so so much again for everything!
Man would I love to go to a pub with Galu and just talk lord of the rings. I can sit here and listen all day.
Good content, Galu! Just saying somethings here, I really agree with you about that, Isildur is not one of the main lords in Númenor? In the book he was even one of the top members at Tar-Palantír's council. Even Ar-Pharazôn kept him at the council for a while (at least untill Sauron arrived...).
Andünie is spoken at the series (at least indirectly because of the all coyprights thing) when Elendil or Isildur (now I don't remember) are talking about Anarion being at the west (a lot of people forgot that Anarion is on the series).
I guess the series changed all of it to make the "secrecy" thing about the faithfull at Númenor more emotional attached for the audience, but in the lore it wasn't so secret at all, for example, Ar-Pharazôn sent the faithfull at island of Númenor to Rómenna as exiles (and of course, most of them came from Andünie), and many númenorian colonies, mostly those to the north, were majorily inhabited by the faithful (just like Dol-Amroth, Pelargir, and problably Lond Daer and Tharbad).
I do believe people of Gondor to be slightly longer lived than the average middle-man. Faramir grew to be 120 for instance. That might still be more against the current though, so I guess it is fair to say the average Gondorian has a similar lifespan to other humans.
Absolutely spectacular video, I love the editing and how you use shading on the middle earth map to focus on stuff you're talking about, for instance the mountains of mordor.
Thanks 😊 still have a lot to learn with regards to smoothness of edits and just general skill 😁
On pronunciation: according to the appendices, stress works like this: In all two-syllable words it falls on the first syllable (VAlar, GONdor, ROhan, MAiar, …), and in all other words it falls on the third-to-last syllable (so it‘s eRESsëa, Orome, VAlinor, …) _except_ when the second-to-last syllable contains a consonant cluster or accented vowel in which case _it_ gets the stress (so it‘s eLENdil, aMANdil, braGOLlach, etc).
It should be noted that Tolkien himself isn‘t super consistent though. Some rhymes for example don‘t make sense with narGOTHrond, and I think there are a few more instances of this.
Also, I really like the way you're covering the show. None of the bs drama, just having fun talking Tolkien. That's what we _ought_ to be here for, anyway.
I know of the stress rules I just have never been very good of applying them! Thank you nevertheless!
I always find it hilarious when super fans call out incorrect pronunciation when we have a documented interview with Tolkien where he repeatedly mispronounces Sauron as sore-ron. If the creator himself doesn't stick to his own rules, what hope do we all have!
@ I can totally see myself sitting in Tolkien's garage trying to have a conversation and we're just constantly correcting each other's pronunciation :D
T'is the burden of being a pedant.
@@ciryatar Here here! I used to be much more pedantic with the pronunciation when I was younger. Then time passed and I myself forgot the rules very quickly when I stopped actively trying to learn it and now I realise it is a fool's game to try and be correct 100% of the time. Still, there are the odd words, like Eressea, that make me just think "I should just bloody look up how to say it!", for that, I thank you for setting me straight finally!
I much prefer the reviews and your lore discussions to the show itself 😆 keep it up!
The reason Aragorn finds a seedling was because the Gondorians deliberately planted fruits from the White Tree in case it died. The one in the War of the Ring is actually the third of Gondor. As for Morgoth, he went from 'I want to rule' to 'if I can't have it, nobody can' pretty early on. If he had won, everyone and everything would have been destroyed. He is undeniably, unmitigatedly evil, even if his fall can be understood.
Really enjoyed this video, thanks for doing it. Just to add a bit more to the question of Elendil's family's importance, they are direct descendents of Elros the first Numenorean king. If I remember correctly the 4th king of Numenor's oldest child was a woman, Silmarien, but at the time it was the oldest male child who became King. So her family was basically the realms second royal house and were given the title of Lord of Andunie.
They were given the sceptre of Annuminas which would later be held by the Kings of Arnor, the sword Narsil which cut the ring from Sauron and was later reforged into Aragorn's sword Anduril, and the ring of Barahir which Aragorn wore that marked him as the heir to the Gondorian/Arnorien thrones.
"We will just sleep with other Dunedain"
Sweet home Annúminas, where the bloodline is always pure...
There's an excellente dialogue where Faramir explains how the gondorians are no longer like the Edain, they are now men of the twilight (this in relation with the Rohirrim and the mingling of the 2 peoples).
Honestly I am not watching the series nor do I intend to, but I do enjoy listening to you two explaining the lore, it is a good format. Looking forward to future explain videos.
Well that's good to hear 😊 we'll keep them coming 👍
Love your lore stuff man. I’ve watched your LotR Lore playlist in its entirety multiple times.
I’m still not sure about this show. I’ll obviously watch it, but it’s disappointing that the Silmarillion rights were not obtained before giving this show the ‘go ahead’.
It seems the current Tolkien estate has zero interest in selling the rights to the Silmarillion. Half a billion dollars didn't persuade them. Maybe one day.
Hopefully there's no more Tolkien "adaptations" for a while...
Really enjoying this new content! It's really interesting seeing the questions Jess has raised that you can take for granted knowing some of the history.
Great idea keeping it lore based as well
While what Galu said about the Gondorians is true, they still lived longer than any other Middle men or North men because of their Numenorian blood (even if it was fading). Faramir lived up to 120 years if im not mistaken, while Bard the bowman died in his 30ies
true, pretty sure the higher longeivety is due to the teachings of Maiar, for example Eonwe
Liking the video podcasts. 👍
Your middle earth lore vids are the best!
I like that you're not getting political, there's enough of that on youtube. I'm just here for the escapism and lore dives.
Enjoying the discussion on the series so far! Would be great to have a retrospective discussion of season 1 as a whole after it wraps up with some likes/dislikes and speculation on where various things might go in later seasons e.g. I can see several characters being introduced later on (Glorfindel, Celeborn, Amandil & Anarion, second Blue Wizard - if that is the Stranger's true identity) that Amazon probably didn't want to introduce so many at once for the average watcher.
We will see what kind of traction these lore based discussions get and take a view. I am hesitant to talk about the show as a show (rather than just talking about "what really happened") because I can't be bothered with the vitriol that comes with that. :-P
Maybe when I was younger I would've have ploughed through but I seek a nice relaxing mid-life period if possible!
@ good idea, the entire kerfuffle on the web about the show and its utter failure is a little exhausting and also a little sad
Great video guys. Would be great to see Halbrand get a story arch where he gets turned by Sauron into the Witch-king. Thanks Jess for persuading Galu to do these vids, very insightful.
I like the theory that he is going to become the King of the Dead.
The Witch-king was said to be a pure blooded Numenorean so Halbrand becoming the WK would be against the story. It is amazon's story though so they might change it.
@ There are rumours that he is Sauron. He even says "looks can be deceiving" in one episode.
@ I didn't think about The King of the Dead and that's an excellent theory. Fits his reverse Aragorn vibe quite well.
Quick point of lore since I looked it up while watching the show: The Witch King isn't explicitly named as a Numenorean, it seems he is just generally assumed to be one of the three Numenoreans numbered among the Nazgul.
Really enjoying the discussion of lore on the show minus the usual vitriol.
@@Esquarious Indeed, the community is sort of in silent agreement that the WK is a Numenorean but you are correct, he is never stated to outright be one, I should amend my earlier comment.
@ Really like this theory, could tie in really well with Isildur's storyline.
We all need to thank Jess for bring us more content from Galu!
Loving this, thank you!
Don't take this wrong, but I am using this to fall asleep to. Thanks!
Thank you Jess and Galu for this series, I am finding myself learning forward wanting to know more.
Another critic. The series condensed two timelines into one, the first one during the forging of the Rings of Power (and The One) during Queen/Tar Telperiën's reign and another one, the late Tar-Palantír's reign, and Tar-Míriel and then Ar-Pharazôn, the last king of Númenor.
However, some aspects that were presented at these two timelines weren't included (at least yet), both in the timeline of the Queen/Tar Telperiën, and the King/Tar Minastir after her (his aunt), Númenor already had a bunch of colonies at the Middle-Earth western coast.
Umbar was already there, being the biggest one, Lond Daer and Tharbad were the first two colonies founded by King/Tar Aldarion centuries before Telperiën. But in the series it seems like Númenor is completely isolated from the world, you know, they don't know nothing (even by having a bunch of Palantíri) about Halbrand, or the Elves (okay, they already hate them, but for God sake, even Galadriel don't know nothing about them at all?).
I don't know, it seems like the show is making an allegory of nowadays UK after the Brexit, or something like that, but Númenor during that time was at the peak of its power, and even during Tar-Telperiën's reign they were already presented at the Middle-Earth and weren't isolated from the continent at all.
just glad to hear Galu talk lotr lore, love jess aswell!!
24:00 Actually, the mountains of Mordor kind of resemble Indonesia and the Philippines if you look at the map upside down (with the Great Dividing Range in Australia as the Misty Mountains, and the Papuan mountains as Ered Nimrais).
- Adûnâi
I'm going to get addicted to these videos
Question.. the scene with the puppeteer looks like a foreshadowing of an event to come, is there such an event? Galadriel and Tal-Miriel fighting together?
I have never read any of the books, but thanks to your lore videos, i find myself knowing more than I thought I did. I now consider myself an expert in the uninitiated.
LoL, no you're not.
I feel like the show is heavily overhated, its just nice having new high quality lord of the rings content again
I believe a slight correction is in order for Morgoth. My recollection is that he was most like Eru (where all the other Ainur represented only aspects of the One). But he could not create of his own will, and being most like iluvatar, this caused incredible frustration at his limitations, and jealously regarding the creations of others who were content to make their own works, understanding that Iluvatar worked through them.
This caused him to manifest discord in the music of the Ainur, and work to destroy, steal, and mock their creations in Middle Earth.
I didnt want to get into the real nitty gritty for what is supposed to be a brief introduction to characters. You will likely find many "corrections".
It is intended to be an "explain like I'm five" introduction. Not a 2 hour long discussion of every character. Corey Olsen does that well enough without needing me to!
@ Haha, got it. Does Corey Olsen have his own channel or is he a pedant in your comment section?
Damn, Galu's lady is a fox! I love these videos, the banter is hilarious.
Another great show ! , thank you ,voices of calm which others should pay attention too and copy .
All I am hearing from this is Galu is a Melkor sympathiser….. love these videos, bit of Galu back in my life!
I think I’m looking forward to these videos more than the actual show lol
Well that is quite the compliment! So pleased you're enjoying them. 😁
I have a question which perhaps you could shed some light on. Galu has said before that there are no hobbits in the second age, and that their presence in the show is purely an Amazon decision. But wouldn't they have been present prior to the Third Age. Didn't Eru create them at the beginning of time? We could just assume that prior to the Third Age, they were of no consequence and therefore never mentioned in any of the great tales.
Good video! I have a question about the animal the orcs use against the captured elves - it's clearly a very stylised beast with weird bug-eyes and an unusually ferocious look about it. Based on the lore is this supposed to be a 'regular' wolf/dog and it was the creators' choice to render it in this more stylised way, or is it a specific fantasy wolf/dog thing which exists in the LotR universe?
It's supposed to be a warg. Wargs are large, evil wolves that have their own language (at least some of them, during the time of The Hobbit) and often work together with orcs.
@@SNWWRNNG nice one - thanks!
I'm sure we can add this question to the next video 😁
It's still so weird to hear your voice and see a face at the same time.
Lovely to see you've branched out after DaC.
Aragorn also lives longer because he is of the royal lineage and the kings had longer life spans in general
In films the orcs are seen in different colours in the films is there a distinct reason why they are different in the show ? Or are they like the early version of them?
No lore reason behind it, just artistic licence on the part of the creators.
@ o I see thanks for answering my question! I hope you have a nice day!
I truly appreciate your videos they are great fun to listen to and watch all the many years I have been a fan
To add some more lore info to Galu's comment: the way Jackson and Amazon presented orcs isn't really in line with Tolkien to begin with. According to his descriptions they should be broad, squat, and flat-nosed, with "sallow" skin. I.e. picture super beautiful elves, cripple their posture, make them broad and ugly, and give them an unhealthy skin tone and ya got yerself some orcs.
The unfortunate implication alongside this though is the fact that Tolkien qualified this description by saying that they look like perversions of the "(to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". He wasn't a racist (quite explicitly so), and I see this mostly as a mixture of ignorance and carelessness (which isn't great, to be clear, even in some random letter), but it's obvious why even hinting in that direction would be quite problematic. So Jackson went with his own look, which IMO is quite superb. But it's not what Tolkien describes, so any deviations from that look by Amazon can also not be explained with Tolkien lore.
@@ciryatar o I see thank you for your contribution to my answer from Galu and explaining it in a simple way!
The ban of the Valar was a necessity. Sauron wrought Numenor's doom no matter what happened even if Eru had not acted. They fight the forces of Valinor and lose and it's over. But emerging as victors would not have removed Eru's themes in the Ainulindale and "the doom of men" to depart the circles of the world. At some point the Numeorean victors expecting to live forever in Valinor would not be able to stop their spirits departure and the place eventually being inhabited by animated zombies in effect, which Melkor would probably say, aren't you one of mine and for certain wide open to possession by powerful "houseless" spirits. Bilbo and Frodo were granted a very special grace for such mortal beings.
An actual correction. You had to tiptoe a bit around the eugenics part of Dunedain blood and how Gondor mixed their blood and lost their longevity, but it isn’t actually true.
It is brought up in universe as a theory with the whole Kinstrife civil war in Gondor, but intermarriage with other men isn’t actually shown at all to cause the degradation of their long lives. It is feared too, but the truth is that it is just the dark deeds. So there are ideas of eugenics proposed, but Tolkien actually makes sure to slap them down.
the grace is preserved in blood, but turning away from it robs it forever, case in point those most corrupted, the dark numenorians lost most of their might and majesty real quick, compared to the faithful
Interesting your point about 'he isn't evil, he just wants things.' I think thats how most evil happens tbh - entitlement. i just want this land, i just want this wealth, and all the death and destruction and slavery is ancillary to me getting it
Thanks for this channel guys! 😊
Really like these type of videos, keep them coming Galu and Jess 😀
I've read the possibility of Halbrand being the king of the dead, but I don't really know how that could be possible, still a cool speculation.
He is probably one Part of 3. Sauron hiding in a shattered state. Waiting for his reconstruction.
I think the Peter jackson film did film Gil Galad's death, and more of Elendil, according to actors and some stills that exist showing it, but was cut for age ratings etc. Either way, I am excited to see Elendil develop through this show now to that point, and these videos are very helpful :)
Fantastic content, and always has been!
One question, perhaps for discussion on the next episode, if I may - concerning the story that is building around Arondir and Theo. There seems to be a growing number of parallels between the two, and of Turin and Beleg, as if to be a subtle nod to content outside of Amazon’s reach. Do you think this may be the case? Would be very interested to hear your thoughts.
Considering Sauron is a shape shifter, and "the Stranger" arrived as a fireball, surely he is the strongest lore candidate for Sauron/Annatar
i thought the kings men and the faithfull started much after the creation of the rings.... but i guess the show must show it to us this way to make us familliar with elendil and his sons
Yeah the show is condensing all of Numenor's 3000 years into just the shows runtime. I.E the life of just Elendil.
I was happy to see that they really played up the difference between Uruks and Orcs. These guys _really_ hate bright sunlight. In your opinion, are the elves... elvish enough? I know Legolas was overplayed, but the Elves really come off as humans. No otherworldly, mystic, supernatural air about them. 7 of the best Noldor against a snow troll? IDK...
Greetings from Poland.
Few questions/thoughts about episode 4 you may use for new discussion.
Warning about possible spoilers ;)
Narsil was presented to us ;) lets see if they will keep the detail going appropriately.
Someone noticed axe and shield of Tuor. Could you please remind a bit in next review who Tuor was?
I am disappointed how they conduct time pacing in the show. This is very visible with Eregion and smith construction there - just in few days they managed to adavnce greatly entire new structure? Quite ridiculous.
Numenor is going to challenge Sauron but... When rings will be made? If they will take Sauron hostage how he will create the rings? That is not connecting to any proper book/appendix chronology... What do you think?
See you on Monday I hope :)
You're thinking of the House of Ulfang, though that may be one of the sons, with one of Uldor, Ulfast, and Ulwarth being the father. I could be wrong about the exact names though, as I'm doing it from memory.
My friend can you help answer this please! We have the moment in the show i am completley confused! We have Ost-in-Edhill and kingdom of Eregion at the same time we have Kings men in Numenor and Ar-Pharazon the golden and Elendil and i dont understand this at all. By SA 1699 all of Eriador fell under Sauron's control, Imladris was besieged, as were the Grey Havens and Lindon was cut off from Rivendell and Khazad-dûm. And Sauron was close to Lindon as well he conquer a lot of land and Elves are almost losing the war. But then Númenor arrived, sent by Tar-Minastir and commanded by Ciryatur, which landed in Lindon, at Tharbad on the Gwathló, and in the south near Pelargir. Sauron's forces were driven back from the Grey Havens, and retreating to the Gwathló found their way blocked by the second Númenórean army. But show showing to us only the time of Kings men Numenorians and they didint fight in the wars of Sauron and Elves and show put us in time where Numenorians banned Elves from Iland . So this that mean we will not see that fight. But Ost-in-Edhil is there and war will come so i am completley confused
Did the Silmarillion copyright stop them doing anything with the blue wizards. When this Amazon project was first mooted many assumed that they might be the focus.
Was Tar Palantir ever deposed in the way the show alludes to? Or did he die on the throne in Tolkien's writings?
As a theory from me, I still think the show will depict the war of Sauron and the Elves with Numenor coming out of isolation to save the elves (if that was what you were lamenting about the show possibly not showing due to the skewed timelines) but this will be the last straw for Miriel who orders it and will make Pharazon king either by Elves snubbing Numenor in some way or purely the anger of the people geting involved in a war that they view does not concern them.
The story in the lore would make excellent tele although it is very dark.
Tar-Palantir dies of natural causes and Pharazon, who is Miriels cousin forces her to marry him and he surplants her as rightful ruler. She pretty much falls out of the story after that and she dies in the downfall.
The forced marriage might be too dark for the show though.
Is the imrahil that isildur is with on the boat the same prince of Dol amroth or is it a different character completely?
It is a different person. Not even amazon's time bending story can bring that Imrahil to Numenor. It is just there to show that Imrahil's name is not unique just like we have many people called the same name.
This man just wins
Love the talk
Question/statement shouldn’t there be 9 human kingdoms in middle earth for the Nazgûl or is that never discussed?
The nazgul aren't said to all be explicitly kings. They are just great and powerful humans.
You should have Jess in each video, she adds a non ‘lore-mastermind’ like your fantastic brain displays that makes these extra enjoyable.
Plus she’s your wife so why not. Haha.
I love how we have a "real fan" who represents the people invested in the lore and your "pretend fan" who doesnt care much about how they are stomping over lore but just wants to understand it a bit more and have some of their questions answered. It covers both sides of the discussion very well.
Side note: I hate using "real fan" and "pretend fan" terminology but it makes it easier and we all know which means which so please dont attack me for those terms.
Sadly it shows how divisive the show has become
Hatekeepers suck harder than any black hole.
Did Tolkien write about guilds in Numenor such as were shown in the show, or is it a show thing? I actually thought it was kind of neat
Yes. The sixth King, Tar-Aldarion, founded a Guild of Venturers (voyagers) circa SA 750. Source: Unfinished Tales, 'Aldarion and Erendis'.
Very good, this. Any more?
We are planning to do them for every episode for at least this series so hopefully there will be many more 🙏
This will keep me going till DaC comes back
ulfang betrayed the elves and humans of the Alliance of Maedhros, Bor stayed faithful, but I believe he and all his followers perished. Ulfang was “rewarded” with Hithlum.
At this point in the story, are the Numenorians at all concerned with Sauron's return? Or is that more a thing the elves concern themselves about?
I ask this because I expect Galadriel is going to team up with the Faithful to hunt Sauron/bad guys, but I'm not sure to what extent she'll have to convince them of this threat or of Sauron's existence.
Early on, circa SA 883, Gil-galad writes a letter to warn the then King, Meneldur, of the return of evil. The Numenoreans begin to make a harbour in Middle-earth, called Lond Daer. Eventually, in SA 1700, they send a great fleet to help in the war of the Elves and Sauron. (Most of this is in Unfinished Tales, 'Aldarion and Erendis'.)
At a guess Galadriel's visit is taking the place of Gil-galad's warning. Possibly the prophesy was about this, i.e. that an Elf coming to Numenor would portend the rise of Sauron.
What is it about Mordor that makes Sauron choose it as his 'base of operations'?
How stupidly easy it is to defend because of its unnatural shape, mountain borders and the fact that every human east of Mordor is on Saurons side or under his control.
@ Also it has a volcano in it, which is compulsory for any evil lair.
@@cass7448 Ah yes of course, the "evil lair test". :P
Faramir lives for 120 years, so the line of stewards aren’t fully mixed with Middle Men.
We can live for 110 years. Argument based on anomaly is flawed.
Galu is a Melkor apologist 😂
"Not really evil," just in direct opposition to the will of the Creator and convinced that his own way is the best. I expect we'll see a Paradise Lost-style novel soon! Haha.
Too long in the 🦷 for all that bullshit! 🤣🤣 you the 🐐 bruh 👊🏼
I saw a theory that the man that fell from the sky is Sauron, what is your thought on that?
I am in the same school of thought. I feel confident that he will be Sauron and that they want us, desperately, to think it will be Gandalf.
I think Sauron is split into 3. I think that was the way he was hiding. The sword could be an artifact to fully recontruct him. They correspond to where the 3 Silmarils were lost. The Sea. Halbrand. The Earth. Adar. And the Sky. Stranger.
I know the channel is winding down, but I think there would be a substantial percentage of your audience who would quite enjoy watching you and Jess play games together. As a team, against each other, same computer, different computers with split screen videos, anything you like really. I know I'd watch it.
Keep up the videos you two, really enjoying them, reminds me of me pausing the show to explain points to my other half!
We actually used to do that on my channel 😂 they are rather old now but they're still up if you haven't watched them before.
If any questions come up that you think more people like your gf would want to know, please let us know 😊
Are they excluded from using Umbar, Harad and Rhun etc. Some of the characters would work better if they were a southern, more tropical population, elves, dwarves and hobbits from the south east. Does the Silmarillion copyright block that. I know that in the wars of the past some were taken or sold south by Morgoth and Sauron. That would make some of the depiction more viable.
Definitely it could have done so much better with more background lore to fill in and flesh out the world, but that’s no fault of the show considering they literally can’t haha. Still has been and alright watch
Very enjoyable, I don't enjoy the show due to its many flaws, but this content is quite good and an interesting way to approach the series. Subscribing.
I just hope Halbrand isn’t Sauron a lot of people are saying it is 😂
Same. I really hope we haven't met Sauron yet.
Probably its more complicated.
I'm so enjoying watching that show in a pirate site. No Amazon Prime for me. puh!
Seems to me that it's way too early to condemn a show that is establishing a world and its characters. I quite like it as it is so far even though not much action is happening. I also really enjoyed the Fellowship of the Ring whereas a lot of people I've talked to think it was too boring. It's too soon to outright say the show is bad or good.
Exactly. Ultimately, as J.R.R. Tolkien wrote, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
Thanks for sharing your opinion, I agree. I think it is much too early to judge the entire concept on 3 episodes, I'm sure there will be excitement to come once the base has been established.
What are you talking about? Three episodes is enough to judge a new series based on a powerful fantasy universe.
@@wintersnoob I mean, we just got introduced to Numenor last episode. Not everyone has read the books. Game of thrones started off slow as well. Like I said in my initial post, I like it already, so it can only get better once all the fun action begins. They're already on the right track by going back to what made LOTR great, and avoiding the tragedy that is The Hobbit (i.e., All CGI orcs). I'm optimistic.
@@wintersnoob Judgement is not ment for everyone.
Why do you hope Adar isn’t Sauron?
They have a golden opportunity to make it so none of the characters are "obviously" Sauron. He can shape shift and hasn't been seen in hundreds of years anyway. I want him to be a totally insignificant character that you would never think is Sauron and them BOOM, it is him. Great opportunity for an amazing reveal.
Adar is too obviously evil to be Sauron and it would be such a waste.
@ do you think it’s possible that Adar could be the obvious Sauron then we see him disguised as someone else as well?
Still no V5 😂
🤔
Spoil away .. lol
Tolkien devoted a large portion of his life to developing the mythical world of Middle Earth. He drew inspiration from his real life experiences of fighting in WWI, the close friendships he maintained through his love of literature even the love of his life, his wife Edith inspired the stories of Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen. During the making of the Lord of the Rings trilogy there were always copies of the books on set to be used as reference for the director and the actors, even to the last day of filming. Peter Jackson and almost everyone in a high level position had read the books, loved them and were very respectful of the canon and lore. The writing and dialogue in TROP is not anywhere near as interesting and at times is as they say, cringeworthy. There will always be an audience for bad television/cinema. Not everyone is able to appreciate a masterpiece. Many prefer a simple story with lots of violence and gratuitous sex and Hollywood is more than happy to oblige. TROP is bad storytelling with bad writing, way too much CGI, and way too little love of the lore. That a couple of 40 something producers would fail to understand the importance of canon and lore versus pc and wokeness doesn't surprise me at all, being offensive while feigning being offended is a characteristic of their generation. I had really hoped they would produce a show that, given the obscene budget, would have approached the quality of the books and the Peter Jackson trilogy. A lifetime to write the stories and a singularly epic success of turning them into cinema. That is why people who CAN appreciate a masterpiece love the books and trilogy and do not love TROP. We are not racists we are lovers of the lore. Have diversity in the casting, I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with are people who resemble Romans with pointed ears....with Elven warriors wearing slightly modified football helmets....with "Our hearts are bigger than our feet!" hardly quote-worthy....Ugh! I don't believe I can bear 5 more episodes so I'm cutting my losses and skipping the rest. I sincerely hope that someone in the future, who does love Middle Earth, will try again. These are stories that need to be seen as well as heard because they are singularly epic mythology!
And you did not understand a tiny bit of Tolkiens work.
My girlfriend would beat me if I talked to her in such a patronising tone. :p
Whatever you need to think to feel good about yourself.
My wife and I are very content after 14 years together. You do you.
Rings of Girl Power. Excluding that,its a really boring show.I thought season 1 of the Witcher series was boring, but this exceds that.
Discuss the show without praise or condemnation, typical LibDem voter!! Just kidding.
This show is just plain bad even trying to disconnect it from Tolkien it's just...bad. 0 redeeming qualities whatsoever.
What is your question?
@ No question. Or is making a statement in your comment section not allowed?
@@paulr935 Well, I had hoped people who comment on the video might comment on the video and not the show - given that this is not a review nor a discussion of the shows quality; or otherwise.
I didn't burden you with my opinion of the show, why must I be burdened with yours?
@ uhh...okay seeing as you're rather defensive and unpleasant I bid thee, fare thee well.
@@paulr935 He hit you like the Hammers of Gundabad.
I condemn this show