Thank you Vasi for making the distinction between "fast fashion" being appropriate for survival at low income levels, yet being the very wasteful novelty it is by those with disposable incomes.
The Thing IS though, especially If you are Low income, you benifits from a slow fashion approach, being willing to wear secondhand, able to mend a few things, keeping an eyes out for Things that are sturdy and easy to mend . . .but yeah, ITS a massiv difference whatever you Chose to buy all plastic, when you can effort Natural Fiber, or If ITS your only Option!!!
holly molly i was flippin pulled in and watched it all the way to the end almost not doing anything (i hoped for it to be another generic pod on yt that i can plug in and do my shit, homework, whatever but that..) that was so captivating thank you so much for being such a nice host and for choosing such a magnificent lady to come over to your show that was truly amazing time for me🔥🔥
I always equate corsets to boots. Imagine you are an actor on your first day in costume. You are given a brand new pair of knee-high leather boots. You aren’t allowed to wear anything under them - they’re against your bare skin. Someone has laced them up far too tightly (because they think that’s how it’s done), and the darn things didn’t even fit your feet in the first place. And you wear them all day. Of course they hurt! But it would be ridiculous to suggest that everyone who wears knee high boots was / is torturing and maiming themselves.
@@lilyn7497 I think the point is that on movie sets they often are which is part of why we should believe actresses who say they hurt but not villianize corsets collectively because of it...
Hallo Steve! I come from your woodworking channel and I've absolutely loved your initiative to celebrate creativity in its many forms. Thanks for spreading the creative culture.
You know, I miss the old Ste... hang on, no I don't :P I'm not sure you'd have found enough interesting woodworkers with different points of view to fill 84 episodes of the WTS with such varied and broadly reaching content. This has certainly evolved into a whole other podcast and is much better for it.
Nothing says privilege like “living intentionally.” A lot of people don’t have much of a choice in how they live, what items they can have access to and how they think about where things come from. And nothing says romanticizing history like saying corsets aren’t a big deal for you so they weren’t a big deal for women who were socially forced to wear them tight enough to cause their ribs to indent their organs. I’m sure there are examples of women who wore corsets because they wanted to but that doesn’t erase the examples of women who were forced and who were permanently damaged because of them. There are historical examples of that happening. I’m unsure as to why people currently like to romanticize history and call it creativity.
Nothing says privileged enough to BE angry at fictional points as doing literally no research and being angry on behalf of Others, WHO would in No way agree with you. Corsets where Not some partriarchial tortured Instrument, they where developed for bust Support and quite convinient they also provide back Support which helped with physically demanding Jobs AS well AS making wearing heavy Petticoats way more comfortable, so one could layer and stay nice and warm in Winter making IT possible to Just wear the lighter ones ontop of eachother instead of one designated Winter one that would BE to warm in the Other seasons. . . . Pretty much No one tight laced and even then you would only in the Most extreme cases have any medical issues!!! I worked a physically demanding Job in a tightlaced corsets and IT was a Relief!!! Having the audacity to speak with authority of Something you have No clue about . . . . AS you missed, she absolutely aknowlages, that IT IS a privilege, that she has AS much choice AS she has and that there IS a strong differences between buying what you can effort and Just Always wanting the newest Trend Not caring for IT a day after, cause she can differentiate AS you apparently can Not. And I have to disagree with you! Even and especially If you do Not have AS much Money you can absolutely BE aware of the Problem of fast Fashion and Go against IT. Buying second Hand, mending all Things one does If one does Not have the disposable income to buy a new Thing every week are all slow Fashion. Chosing to buy Something from Primark that will desintegrate after two rounds of washing, or giving a to small on a Family member or friend piece a new life, what do you think IS cheaper?! Yeah Not everyone has the Same choices and opportunities, but I never heared Something AS arrogant, AS buying new Things all the time IS needed for poor people . . . . . How IS IT romantisising the past to BE aware enough to See, where our ingenuity did Not Bring benifits? ITS Not romantisising the present to aknowlage the benifits of modern medicine after all!!! Modern clothes have so many Problems, modern washing Machines are extreamly unhygenic, those ore Not romantic fantasies, those are plain facts. Living intentionaly IS also Not waisting Money on expensive importend foods, a sensible Thing to do, especially If you got Money struggles, questioning socially ingraved Habits to find a more sensible and effortable solutions, very often IT IS a Lack of privilage that gets one to think of that!!!
I didn't say I was angry, but thanks for telling me how I feel. I am merely positing a challenge to an oft unchallenged romantic view of the past. Though I have never worn a corset, being a man doesn't make me unable to conduct historical research. Yes, corsets did provide support. But if one looks at the historical documents and academic sources, corsets existed long before they became popular during the middle of the 18th century. A main reason they became popular during the industrial age was fashion. As Kortsch notes in Dress Culture in Late Victorian Women’s Fiction: Literacy, Textiles, and Activism, "corsets fashioned a figure that embodied social etiquette and class status. More than any other garment, the corset guaranteed a woman’s respectability, and it became a mandatory article of dress for women of all classes.” Further, "Any woman of a certain class who appeared in public without stays was subject to scandal and scrutiny (Summers 2001; Kortsch 2009). It was a bodily object of medical and moral necessity, as it not only shaped an ideal body, but affected movement (Shapiro 2010: 8). However, corsets were also seen as creating sexual desire, as it emphasized a woman’s figure." This material is from, Bodily Objects by Diana DiPaolo Loren. So, yes, other women from lower classes may have worn them for support, but seemingly more for fashion and social purpose than for practical ones. Also, there are many examples of tightlacing, so unless you personally wore an 18th century corset as tightly as was seen in advertisements of the period, you probably haven't experienced the same health problems, but that doesn't mean they didn't cause problems in earlier periods. As for the privilege argument. I agree with you that modern clothes have many problems. But that doesn't mean everyone can afford to buy expensive locally source, organically grown, B Corp certified clothing. Repairing clothing, fine. Thrift stores, fine. I'm not arguing against that. I just think we shouldn't be so quick to expect that everyone can or should do the same just because we are in a position to be able to do so.
Advertisements don’t reflect the reality is exactly the point. Women saw (and see modern equivalents) as the ideal. Often touted by celebrities, things like arsenic wafers, and tiny waists were seen as the ideal. I’m not making this up. There are sources.
Hey there! I do certainly have many privileges now, but I’m an indigenous woman and grew up lower income, so the reason I’ve thought about many of these topics so in-depth is because of growing up less privileged. Some of the most important life conversations and intentional living practices I’ve learned were actually from people of my own indigenous group who are very low income who often have to rely on living off the land for survival. My grandmother for instance was incredibly poor for most of her life (struggling to buy shoes even) and yet she sewed a lot of her own clothes and grew a lot of her own food. She may not have called it “hand sewn” and “organic” but that’s what it all was. There was no other choice for it to be anything else. I’ve had to work very hard in my life to get the privileges I have today and I am grateful for them every day. Regarding conversations around corsetry, as another commenter stated, there are a lot of issues with the primary sources you reference and fashion historians have spoken quite extensively about issues with the way the demonisation of corsetry of the past is presented. Even photos and advertisements are altered at that time by drawing on the print to make waists look smaller etc (kind of like a historical equivalent of photoshop). I would just highly recommend expanding your research on the topic and also looking to other experts (especially women) who are fashion historians, and not just historians in general, because they tend to give a much more well rounded perspective on historical corsetry. Not to mention, the working class are really left out in the sources you reference, as is often the case with historical research on corsetry, so that may be something for you to explore more as well. Wishing you a nice day! ☺️
@@VBirchwood I always find it comical on social media posts whenever someone makes a post without sources but makes factual assertions, the post it taken as the gospel, but when someone tries to support their sources, the response is "oh those aren't the ones," or "you should find more." Since I'm not touting corsets in my social media, I'm not sure why you think it's my job to counter the "demonization" of corsets. I understand how historical things are viewed can change. But touting corsets from a modern perspective does simply not erase or change the well documented examples of the past. Thanks for explaining where your privilege comes from. Mayble lead with that in your next chat to a woodworker podcaster guy.
Thank you Vasi for making the distinction between "fast fashion" being appropriate for survival at low income levels, yet being the very wasteful novelty it is by those with disposable incomes.
The Thing IS though, especially If you are Low income, you benifits from a slow fashion approach, being willing to wear secondhand, able to mend a few things, keeping an eyes out for Things that are sturdy and easy to mend . . .but yeah, ITS a massiv difference whatever you Chose to buy all plastic, when you can effort Natural Fiber, or If ITS your only Option!!!
. . . and the plants never stop sprouting up from the gaps in the concrete. Nature is thankfully a persistent force.
holly molly i was flippin pulled in and watched it all the way to the end almost not doing anything (i hoped for it to be another generic pod on yt that i can plug in and do my shit, homework, whatever but that..)
that was so captivating
thank you so much for being such a nice host
and for choosing such a magnificent lady to come over to your show
that was truly amazing time for me🔥🔥
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that. 😊
A wonderful, wonderful interview! You two are lovely, thoughtful, natural conversationalists together.
Thank you! Vasi is so fun to talk to! 😊
I could answer the question in the title with just one word.
Yes
I always equate corsets to boots. Imagine you are an actor on your first day in costume. You are given a brand new pair of knee-high leather boots. You aren’t allowed to wear anything under them - they’re against your bare skin. Someone has laced them up far too tightly (because they think that’s how it’s done), and the darn things didn’t even fit your feet in the first place. And you wear them all day. Of course they hurt! But it would be ridiculous to suggest that everyone who wears knee high boots was / is torturing and maiming themselves.
But corsets weren't on bare skin 😉
@@lilyn7497 I think the point is that on movie sets they often are which is part of why we should believe actresses who say they hurt but not villianize corsets collectively because of it...
@@lilyn7497 For many actresses, they were! We constantly see corsets with no chemise in period dramas.
Hallo Steve! I come from your woodworking channel and I've absolutely loved your initiative to celebrate creativity in its many forms.
Thanks for spreading the creative culture.
Thank you so much! I'm learning so much from so many interesting people!
Such a fantastic video thank you
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching!
Great conversation! I'm a huge Ask a Mortician fan too.
Yes! Caitlin is so interesting!
Answer is yes...which would have saved you time if you still didn't need to watch this, because it's fascinating.
You know, I miss the old Ste... hang on, no I don't :P I'm not sure you'd have found enough interesting woodworkers with different points of view to fill 84 episodes of the WTS with such varied and broadly reaching content. This has certainly evolved into a whole other podcast and is much better for it.
Thank you! I love doing this show and it's fun to see what directions it decides to go. 👍
Nothing says privilege like “living intentionally.” A lot of people don’t have much of a choice in how they live, what items they can have access to and how they think about where things come from. And nothing says romanticizing history like saying corsets aren’t a big deal for you so they weren’t a big deal for women who were socially forced to wear them tight enough to cause their ribs to indent their organs. I’m sure there are examples of women who wore corsets because they wanted to but that doesn’t erase the examples of women who were forced and who were permanently damaged because of them. There are historical examples of that happening. I’m unsure as to why people currently like to romanticize history and call it creativity.
Nothing says privileged enough to BE angry at fictional points as doing literally no research and being angry on behalf of Others, WHO would in No way agree with you.
Corsets where Not some partriarchial tortured Instrument, they where developed for bust Support and quite convinient they also provide back Support which helped with physically demanding Jobs AS well AS making wearing heavy Petticoats way more comfortable, so one could layer and stay nice and warm in Winter making IT possible to Just wear the lighter ones ontop of eachother instead of one designated Winter one that would BE to warm in the Other seasons. . . .
Pretty much No one tight laced and even then you would only in the Most extreme cases have any medical issues!!! I worked a physically demanding Job in a tightlaced corsets and IT was a Relief!!!
Having the audacity to speak with authority of Something you have No clue about . . . .
AS you missed, she absolutely aknowlages, that IT IS a privilege, that she has AS much choice AS she has and that there IS a strong differences between buying what you can effort and Just Always wanting the newest Trend Not caring for IT a day after, cause she can differentiate AS you apparently can Not.
And I have to disagree with you! Even and especially If you do Not have AS much Money you can absolutely BE aware of the Problem of fast Fashion and Go against IT. Buying second Hand, mending all Things one does If one does Not have the disposable income to buy a new Thing every week are all slow Fashion.
Chosing to buy Something from Primark that will desintegrate after two rounds of washing, or giving a to small on a Family member or friend piece a new life, what do you think IS cheaper?!
Yeah Not everyone has the Same choices and opportunities, but I never heared Something AS arrogant, AS buying new Things all the time IS needed for poor people . . . . .
How IS IT romantisising the past to BE aware enough to See, where our ingenuity did Not Bring benifits? ITS Not romantisising the present to aknowlage the benifits of modern medicine after all!!!
Modern clothes have so many Problems, modern washing Machines are extreamly unhygenic, those ore Not romantic fantasies, those are plain facts.
Living intentionaly IS also Not waisting Money on expensive importend foods, a sensible Thing to do, especially If you got Money struggles, questioning socially ingraved Habits to find a more sensible and effortable solutions, very often IT IS a Lack of privilage that gets one to think of that!!!
I didn't say I was angry, but thanks for telling me how I feel. I am merely positing a challenge to an oft unchallenged romantic view of the past. Though I have never worn a corset, being a man doesn't make me unable to conduct historical research. Yes, corsets did provide support. But if one looks at the historical documents and academic sources, corsets existed long before they became popular during the middle of the 18th century. A main reason they became popular during the industrial age was fashion. As Kortsch notes in Dress Culture in Late Victorian Women’s Fiction: Literacy, Textiles, and Activism, "corsets fashioned a figure that embodied social etiquette and class status. More than any other garment, the corset guaranteed a woman’s respectability, and it became a mandatory article of dress for women of all classes.” Further, "Any woman of a certain class who appeared in public without stays was subject to scandal and scrutiny (Summers 2001; Kortsch 2009). It was a bodily object of medical and moral necessity, as it not only shaped an ideal body, but affected movement (Shapiro 2010: 8). However, corsets were also seen as creating sexual desire, as it emphasized a woman’s figure." This material is from, Bodily Objects by Diana DiPaolo Loren. So, yes, other women from lower classes may have worn them for support, but seemingly more for fashion and social purpose than for practical ones. Also, there are many examples of tightlacing, so unless you personally wore an 18th century corset as tightly as was seen in advertisements of the period, you probably haven't experienced the same health problems, but that doesn't mean they didn't cause problems in earlier periods.
As for the privilege argument. I agree with you that modern clothes have many problems. But that doesn't mean everyone can afford to buy expensive locally source, organically grown, B Corp certified clothing. Repairing clothing, fine. Thrift stores, fine. I'm not arguing against that. I just think we shouldn't be so quick to expect that everyone can or should do the same just because we are in a position to be able to do so.
Advertisements don’t reflect the reality is exactly the point. Women saw (and see modern equivalents) as the ideal. Often touted by celebrities, things like arsenic wafers, and tiny waists were seen as the ideal. I’m not making this up. There are sources.
Hey there! I do certainly have many privileges now, but I’m an indigenous woman and grew up lower income, so the reason I’ve thought about many of these topics so in-depth is because of growing up less privileged. Some of the most important life conversations and intentional living practices I’ve learned were actually from people of my own indigenous group who are very low income who often have to rely on living off the land for survival. My grandmother for instance was incredibly poor for most of her life (struggling to buy shoes even) and yet she sewed a lot of her own clothes and grew a lot of her own food. She may not have called it “hand sewn” and “organic” but that’s what it all was. There was no other choice for it to be anything else. I’ve had to work very hard in my life to get the privileges I have today and I am grateful for them every day.
Regarding conversations around corsetry, as another commenter stated, there are a lot of issues with the primary sources you reference and fashion historians have spoken quite extensively about issues with the way the demonisation of corsetry of the past is presented. Even photos and advertisements are altered at that time by drawing on the print to make waists look smaller etc (kind of like a historical equivalent of photoshop). I would just highly recommend expanding your research on the topic and also looking to other experts (especially women) who are fashion historians, and not just historians in general, because they tend to give a much more well rounded perspective on historical corsetry. Not to mention, the working class are really left out in the sources you reference, as is often the case with historical research on corsetry, so that may be something for you to explore more as well. Wishing you a nice day! ☺️
@@VBirchwood I always find it comical on social media posts whenever someone makes a post without sources but makes factual assertions, the post it taken as the gospel, but when someone tries to support their sources, the response is "oh those aren't the ones," or "you should find more." Since I'm not touting corsets in my social media, I'm not sure why you think it's my job to counter the "demonization" of corsets. I understand how historical things are viewed can change. But touting corsets from a modern perspective does simply not erase or change the well documented examples of the past. Thanks for explaining where your privilege comes from. Mayble lead with that in your next chat to a woodworker podcaster guy.