When the Turn Gets too Long
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- #mtg #thetrinketmage #trinketmage
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Love silly synergy cards that do random stuff! So for me a long turn is fun to watch!
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/ @massobeats - Ігри
That's exactly why Rule of Law and Deafening Silence are my white staples.
Archon of Emeria!
I love those cards
As a storm player I hate these cards
We do the "I'm going to crack this fetch, grab X, pass the turn" thing a lot, just so they don't have to wait for us to fetch/shuffle.
We've also had a person playing Nekusar, and his turns would easily take 5-10 minutes. One time we even played a game of standard on the side while waiting for his turn to finish 🙄
1:35 woah woah woah crab rave is a very ALLOWED playstyle. crab rave as long as you want prince, you earned that combo
Average ad nauseum player pov
I also agree your opinion on turns. The 5 mana explore is a joke in my group. Whenever someoe. Takes a turn with no board improvement.
theres a player at my lgs infamous for these. they run a bant infinite turns combo deck, but more often than anyone would like they take a bunch of time and spend a bunch of mana to explore
My solution is something that comes with time; Understanding your deck's lines to reaching its wins.
I can go from casually having fun to being hyper-focused on what I'm doing the moment I start doing tons of things and feeling like I'm not doing anything progressive.
I love it when people get up to read Safe Haven on my board when they see me for the third time killing my own unit. I love creature heavy decks so when I hit this and each time I see someone about to trade out or spot remove a creature of mine. Paying 2 is not a scary amount of mana to put them into your back pocket to surprise the table. It keeps the group on their toes and they never know when I will bring my giant creatures out of my hidey hole. Definitely a pet card + its a land so unless people have permanent removal it's pretty safe.
My playgroup loves long turns. We're all big fans of storm as a mechanic and always ready to take big explosive plays for ourselves or for opponents. Impressive boardstate after 20-min turn with a lot of discussions, interaction and thoughts about searching ways to win is an ordinary gameplan. I don't understand why for someone this can be boring. You carefully look at every trigger and action of your opponent in his (probably) final moves, look for ways to hinder him, rejoice if he managed to win coolly through some difficult (or even risky) line or if you were able to find an unexpected window for interaction - there is simply no place for boredom!
I love storm as well! And classic manual storm is just so fun!
I think the issue is when nobody has interaction. You feel like a spectator, not a participant. This is especially true if the comboing player ends their long turn without achieving anything.
@@benjaminloyd6056 I don't think this is a big problem, because being a spectator is also quite interesting. You follow opponent’s every move as if it were your own, watch for mistakes, think whether he/she can win now or not, notice interesting decisions. The game does not end after your turn, even if you have no interaction. Personally, I have respect for cool tech decks that can also win sometimes and the ability to fizzle sometimes only helps you focus, because there is always hope that on your turn you might have an opportunity to win if, for example, the comboing player didn't calculate his/her mana right. With more deterministic wincons there is no hope, so they are less interesting to watch. But this is all in my opinion, of course.
@@alekspanferov8599 fair enough. I really like playing against unusual decks, like shrine enchantments or burn. But I have an impatient streak and mostly play Voltron. Perhaps I don't appreciate the combo deck mindset.
My number 1 piece advice for any player, new or old, is to run more interaction. Counterspell is one of the most fun cards in the game because it makes you invested in other players turns and it creates tension for them on their turns. Something as simple as 2 open blue mana and one card in hand can completely change the way people play. If you've never held up mana for a counterspell and waited tentatively for your opponent to drop their bomb then I don't feel like you've really played magic. Or at least have experienced the best part of it in my opinion. I often see new players wondering "what am I supposed to do, just watch?" when its not their turn. Running interaction not only stops opponents from running away with the game but it also gives you something to do and consider while other people are going.
I had an Estrid deck that was notorious for taking long turns just spinning its wheels without winning, and honestly, the solution was just take the deck apart. Sometime it’s better to just put the deck concept on the backburner if it tends to take long turns. You control the cards you play, after all.
Thats why i changed my estrid deck to a tuvasa deck back in 2018/2019.
I had a friend in our playgroup that didnt had a deck back then, so he usually played with my decks (at time i had ur-dragon, estrid, niv-mizzet and o-kagachi). Whenever he played with estrid the games would take FOREVER, like 2+ hours games, and ppl were starting to get bored and angry at the format bc games took too long. So i changed the deck a bit... and yes, said friend was a really slow player, so it was a slow deck + slow player combo
You said it right there alot of these problems easily fixed by better threat assessment. Like yea sure that Yawgmoth is strong but he has no creatures or mana meanwhile chef boy r d over there cooking up 3 lands a turn and all you need to do to stop it is kill 1 creature but nah its just lands and Yawgmoth is scary leads to those boards where they now have twenty mana and can cast nyxbloom Vorinclex and when they finally drop the craterhoof your like how did we get here typical commander table x.x
The korvold player at our table always keeps him as a blocker .... this somehow makes a very fair korvold deck but it still takes ages
Scoop to lose and start a new game is always an option after a few minutes
This is probably why so many of decks go into drain win cons. If I’m drawing 20 cards a turn and making way too much mana in my Aristocrat decks they’re probably getting pinged by blood artist effects while it happens. My token decks will be hitting people with impact tremors or my artifact decks will ping with reckless fire weaver. It helps make “winning” become “a win” if they aren’t ready to interact.
Tetzin can get long turns because of the insane value from itself and some dual artifacts. It pops off if it flips one of the lands that tap for mana equal to artifacts, life, or cards in grave. Problem comes in Tetzin's mill 3. Sometimes it'll be a quick turn of playing a few cards, other times it'll be a longer turn prepping to one shotting a player and prepping to repeat the process
I have a Yidris storm deck that combos out with things like Bolas Citadel/Top, Song of Creation, Wastenot/wheels etc and the turn can take so long I end up feeling BAD that I havent found the win yet. This has lead to many DE-powering revisions but I still dont play it nearly as much as I want to just because my playgroup always complains if I have a turn longer than 3 mins. Feelsbadman
That’s lame cause that deck sounds like it feels awesome when it pops off!
I also play yidris myself. I have gone thru both a storm and cascade build but now i just play big dumb spells and beatdown my opps with. Avenger of zendikar, etali primal conquerer, pathbreaker ibex, moraug fury of akoum, consuming abberation all end games especially with a whispersilk cloak or embercleave. Keeper of secrets and passionate archaeologist are still my backup wincons thru burn. I try and cascade as fast as i can then sit on a big threat until my opponents remove it and my opponents usually scoop if they see apex devastator, emergent ultimatum. Having ways to cascade precombat main phase with dark apostle or sunbirds invocation can help push for game faster if i cheat out big spells with a creative technique or unexpected results then build a huge board out of nowhere with a maelstorm wanderer or temur ascendancy on board for haste and a massive swing. Once im out of gas i can often overload a mizzix mastery and do it all over again as well as cast my suspend spells from grave.
I started gold fishing recently because of your video because i realized I really had no idea what I was supposed to do when I was the one winning. Often times I play catch-up (which I do pretty well too), but once I'm in that leading position, I get greedy instead of playing smart. I play dimir/graveyard, so instead of saving counters/protection, in games I used to waste these on becoming a bigger threat. This made me a target instantly halfway through the game and I'd get curb stomped into submission.
Now I've realized to take it slower, and take advantage of the lull and player decks winding down, paying more attention to handsize than anything.
When in front, prioritize holding onto the protection vs threats since I'm already winning (winning more ≠ winning).
Narset turns has been one of my favorite decks for years, while I agree with your assessment of player removal being the answer during the game it’s important knowing when to play narset and when to play something else is extremely important.
TLDR: Don’t be a dick.
My playgroup solved this by swapping decks. If I want to play my buddies cool deck that did a cool thing, I’ll ask to play it and the answer is almost universally yes, and vice versa. Playing the things you lost too to understand them better helps with reducing salt as well, so it’s a win/win.
I like the idea to just attack the playa or to get teammate and See whats UP to or happenning and treat the threat
My buddy plays Masters preCon with the Planewalkers... Bruh, those games go for like 2 hours just with him popping off. I'm literally just there watching him do things. Hell, i lose complete track of what's going on. Meanwhile I'm here with blame game just drawing, putting down creature, then pass lol.
Am I a masochist or a sadist if I enjoy casting a Force of Despair against decks that pop off like this?
That makes you a person who loves to have people fall into your trap
Five or six years ago (dear God) I came across an issue exactly how you described in the beginning.
I was in a four or five player game at a buddy's house and there was one particular guy in the group that everybody was starting to not get along with. For some weird reason I was considered the spiky player of the group, so this guy had a lot of spite towards me. So he plays this innala turns style deck, combos off, takes a 40 minute long sequence, only kills me in the process only to lose like three turns later to some janky stompy deck
Thankfully I was able to stomp him for the next four games after that with odric lunarch Marshal of all things, but it still stings to this day that i endured that
Somebody resolves mneomic deluge on time stretch, JUST SURRENDER. You have already lost. If they cannot kill you in 6 free turns they are utterly incompetent and the game isn't worth finishing.
thanks dunkey
Yahoooo
LOL I read the title, thought about how the last match i had ran into this problem bc of Narset, and then i saw the thumbnail 💀😂 why is it always the Narset mfs
Did the Narset deck win?
@@thetrinketmage Ohhh boy you betcha 💀 I was playing Shelob w plenty of bite spells, I just milled through the one I needed bc of rads lol. Even I agree with you ENTIRELY. As an intensely "casual" player, I know we prefer to not go after commanders or play removal, but unless you want to play 4-man solitaire, you gotta have that interaction and realization that other decks can (and will) absolutely go off if you don't place removal in your decks.
If its the 1st time seeing a pop off im interested. Its of its the 3rd time i get like eh can the turn be over yet. I just ask are we dead yet? We shortcut at much as possible. But non deterministic things take longer cause no one knows if its happening.i pay attention yo cards that sound like it could be important.
I even do this from time to time. Taking the long turns becauce i tunnel vision a specific line and over think when a sinpliee thing has appeared
I think the biggest issue these days is *every* deck needs preventative measures, and unless you stack way more slots of removal than you *really* should its unreasonable to expect tohave all the answers. If you're facing down an enchantments deck, a simic value pile, and some artifact combo list you're a bit more screwed over than if you were fighting a few upgraded precons from a year or two ago.
Every deck takes those 5-10 minute long turns now, to the point where it feels discouraging for your chances if you are doing less game actions, even if those actions are more impactful. Combo reigned supreme for so long the synergy "meta" swung things in the complete opposite direction towards favoring pure amount of game actions.
I am currently running an Omnath deck on mtga and my most common win con is the game braking and the opponent quits 🤷♂️
I don’t play on arena how often does it break down?
Not often , only when there are like 300+ triggers . (Scute swarm+ brood alter , scapeshift and alike ) most I’ve had was 1400 scutes entering and it didn’t compute. Once there is enough Omnath tokens to do lethal boardwipes don’t matter
I don’t care how long I take unless I know I wanna play another game. And I don’t feel bad when I do bc everyone proxies fast mana and $300 cards
How does narset get stopped by a 4/4 when she has first strike?
She is a 3/2 so even with first strike it won’t kill the 4/4 and then she dies in combat
“No one is losing” except for everyone who’s waiting for your pointless turn to end.
I just play quickly, responsibly, have a combo line, and goldfish enough to be familiar with lines.
but just play more interaction!
Yup!
The best way to make turns last even longer.
@@andrewspears8891 not necessarily, some interaction speeds up their turns by making it shorter (i.e. countering timewarp)
Blink effects are great, blink decks suuuuuuck
you can also get away woth a surprising amount of stuff by introducing things into the game that people find fun.
ive got an izzet dragons deck that gets stupid amounts of mana and draw far too easily, and gets to play all those big scary dragons youre thinking about
the feedback i get is that its fun to play against, even if it dominates from the start. I run all the funsies stuff, coveted jewel, monarch, initiative (far too good in 1v1, great fun in 4p when not combo abusedk) and some other cards that are silly or interact weirdly or whatever.
knowing how to play the archenemy is also a good skill to habe, you'll find yourself, amd your opponents, having more fun. accept that youll get an unbalanced amount of removal targetting your stuff, accept that itll become a "everyone kills Aedi or Aedi kills us" when its a reasonable view, dont pull any BS whining "oh but ik low on X or Y" "i didnt attack you" or whatever, take your lumps, play properly, amd when its time to emd the game, do so quickly so everyone can shuffle up for another game. And when that game is over, lose well, win humbly, and offer to change deck. if you did it well, youll usually get either a "no, im going to beat that f-ing thing this time", or "yeah, maybe pull it out another time, but tonight i want to do "
Honestly just have a way to end the game. Don’t just have value and value and value without a win con
This is why combos are really nice sometimes
This is why whenever I build a new Commander Deck, I always start at the end and pick my win-cons first. It is the first thing I do after choosing my Commander.
I personally believe that Mind's Desire should be done "properly", as in, shuffle after each resolution. The reason is that the number of cards still in the deck will statistically affect which card is revealed. This could make or break the game for a different player, depending on what comes. If player 3 should've won by me doing all of the resolutions, but my actions of shortening my turns causes player 4 to win, I don't feel right about that.
mathematically, they are identical
@@electra_ While I do see your point, there were times when my next card would have been a Steel Hellkite, but with the shuffle, I instead got a mana rock. Maybe it's the same if the storm counts go high enough.
@@benjackson4438 no, its just the same.
If you pick 2 cards from the deck without shuffling, those 2 cards are independent apart from being not the same card.
and shuffling in between doesnt make it more consistent what youll get
Shuffling will change what card is on top. but it won't change the probabilities. There is no advantage or disadvantage that it gives you , at every step your top card will be totally random.
Its like if you rolled a die to pick a random number and someone told you that instead you should shuffle a deck of 6 number cards and pick one of those. They do the same thing. Just pick which one is more convenient.
@@benjackson4438 Sorry to revive this but what is your point? "there were times when my next card would have been a Steel Hellkite, but with the shuffle, I instead got a mana rock" you said. Well, the opposite is also true. There will be times when the next card would have been a mana rock, but with the shuffle, you got a Steel Hellkite".
I just want to understand why you think shuffling from a random card to another random card is detrimental?
@gnogara That's ok. Discussions are how we come to understand each other's viewpoints. Strictly mathematically, the next card may not matter. Mechanically, however, it can determine if one player gets ahead of the others, falls behind them, or now becomes "archenemy." A Llanowar Elves as the resulting spell is no reason to worry (most of the time). Getting out Felidar Sovereign while that player is at 40 or more life is now cause for everyone else to turn on them (it's a win condition on the board that will end the game on their next upkeep). Aetherflux Reservoir is another "We must deal with this card, or we WILL lose the game." Is that a better illustration?
I see that you're a cEDH player.
If someone takes me out in a casual pod and I need to sit there for 40+mins, I'd rather not play with those people again. Taking someone out in cedh is socially way more acceptable (and games don't go as long)
There are almost 0 cEDH decks that take long turns like this. Since most use an A+B combo when they go for it the game ends
Cedh decks usually end games quickly, long turns usually happen with unique decks with weird game plans that usually won't consistently perform well
@@thetrinketmagewhat about anje madness? gitrog monster?
@@hoffedemann5370 Anje is not considered a viable cEDH deck these days. And the frog is only theoretically not a deterministic loop. So you can just scoop to the combo
@@thetrinketmage we haven't disagreed at all. cedh combos are fast, but kicking someone out early in a casual pod still feels like a waste of time for them since they need to wait so long for the game to end
I generally agree with this. HOWEVER, if you're going to put extra turn spells in your deck, the onus is on you to make those extra turns fast, especially if you're not a combat deck. Every time a player gets multiple extra turns and *doesn't* win and also spends most of those turns humming and hawing, a random puppy gets kicked. Though of course, this is solved by goldfishing more