Never Mormon listener here... I'll say, I love Mormon Stories because it's not just Mormon stories, it's human stories. I love the in depth, long form interviews. And even though I may not connect to all experiences, I think you might be surprised at how much people connect to some of these themes as just a part of general culture and/or other religions.
Yes! I'm also a never Mormon! I knew a Mormon kid growing up, and then a friend dated more than one Mormon/ex-Mormon. It gave me a peek into that world, and I had some idea of it being a bit culty, but I was missing a lot of the culture and doctrine. The long format interviews are really great to listen to while I'm working on something else, and even though I've never been a member of a high demand religion, I can always find something to relate to. In particular, the experience of finding or finally understanding a huge part of your identity as an adult, having revelations about who you are at your core that is at odds with what you maybe always believed, for me, is really easy to relate to
I'm never-mo as well, and I've got to say that even the parts I don't relate to, I still find very valuable to listen to! It means that I'm learning something new, and gaining understanding for issues that are relevant to other people, since we're all in this together after all, and benefit from understanding each other better and without prejudice.
I feel like a can related even by not being a Mormon, but coming from another religious background. Each episode to me is like a therapy session. I watched many episodes, it is rare to me not to like one, but I did. Didn’t like the person, their attitude. The best episodes in my opinion are the ones involving gays or lesbians. I cried in so many that I can’t count. I watched some of those episodes more than once. We must to learn to love people, we must to love people, period.
"Germans don`t really smile", as a German, this is really funny to hear lol Thanks to you three for doing this interview! I`ve been dying to hear someone talk about their mission in Germany, as i always thought that that must be a really really frustrating mission. People here generally mind their own business and hate getting preached to on the streets. I think that is why, the first time i heard of this concept called "going on a mission" i thought that that was such a strange thing. The way i grew up, if you`re interested in a religion or faith you go and seek it out and look for ways to learn more, but never the other way around. Going from "door to door" was growing up only something i connected with the Jehova Witnesses, which i learnt early on from people around me (and was even hinted at in school) is a cult. The way Hayley describes how the missionaries were mostly talking to and baptizing immigrants or refugees almost sounds a little bit predatory, as these people are in huge transitional phases of their lives and thus might be more vulnerable and influenceable. I personally have zero connections to Mormonism (apart from the fact that i have been watching Mormon Stories for years haha), but fun fact, i live in Munich, and every year, that i go to the Oktoberfest, on the walk from a nearby subway station to the Oktoberfest, i walk past a LDS church building. The only reason i noticed it the first time i went to the Oktoberfest is bc it looks so different from all the other houses on that street lol, i was really surprised to see it there
I am also german and not mormon and I had the exact same thought about missionaries teaching refugees. I have to say I was kind of shocked. Especially with them beeing so shut out from a lot of communities because a lot of people have a lot of prejudice and than having these missionaries swoop in. Feels really wrong from my perspective...
The church actually tells missionaries to look for vulnerable people. Someone going through a rough time, financial difficulties, relationship problems, addiction, death in the family, or other forms of trauma. They do this because damaged individuals are more likely to hang on their every word.
John, I want to thank you and ALL of your guests. You all are incredibly vulnerable and expose your truths. I’m a Never Mormon, but I had a good friend that was Mormon that committed suicide. The church made him feel so little while he was on a mission trip. It devastated me, but listening to your podcast has shed a light on his life and the torture he went through. Thank you
I ran into listening to this just as I have been served divorce papers from my wife of 15 years. I Really appreciate the insight on your perspective as I have a 13 year old son. I had a traumatic 2 year mission experience in Mexico 20 years ago. That contributed to me leaning on pills to address the reoccurring nightmares & anxiety disorder. I’ve attended the dozens of church 12 steps meetings, rehab, marriage counseling, therapy for years to save my marriage. But my wife leaned harder and harder on church based guidance to oust me as a husband, father, breadwinning working man. The years of doctrinal based shaming and leveling insurmountable judgement left me mentally/physically shattered. I don’t expect to find solutions or convenient excuses within Mormon stories. But it’s been good to hear the positive side of your post divorce life.
Also a never-Mormon listener/subscriber. John, I'm compelled to tell you that I have the utmost admiration and respect for all that you are and all you have done and continue to do. Thank you so much. I absolutely love Mormon Stories, all its content, guests, co-hosts and you!
Telling my young women’s leader about my exciting first kiss and her sending me to meet alone with the bishop at 14 was my first step in leaving the church. So many priorities are screwed up. I couldn’t go to the temple or the dances. Meanwhile my friend’s mormon dad tried to kiss my neck and when I went to the bishop they swept it under the rug and shamed me. With my parent’s addiction and the fact that the church literally bought the bed I sleep in, I really wished for a more loving church and all I got was shame and embarrassment. I relate to this one…. Even as a 43 year old.
It took about a year more to be done completely. It took several more years to wade through the teachings and determine what was true. Leaving as a teenager is a lonely process. Now at 43. I am firm in my belief in Jesus as nondenominational Christian . But even now the habits ingrained in me as a kid are there. As for the neck kissing pervert. My bishop was a coward but my mother was not. She went up to man, leaned in, dug her long thick nails in his shoulder and said “you ever go anywhere near my daughter again I will hurt you.” She did this quietly with a smile. The man never looked at me and his daughters didn’t either again. There are many stories that I am sure we all have. Long story short my journey was trauma filled and becoming an adult without Mormons was also hard.
I'm a never mormon, but I'm very familiar with mormon beliefs and culture because I grew up in southern Idaho which has a large mormon popultion. I enjoy listening to post mormon podcasts because it validates so much of what I have seen and taken issue with.
Please get Alyssa on from Married at First Sight Australia! She is from the U.S., living in Australia and was raised LDS. Her (and her family I believe) left the church when her dad came out as gay. She was just on the latest season of Australia’s most popular reality show and her past with Mormonism was part of her story, and she stands strongly with her dad outside of the church now. I think that would be a really interesting episode that lots of people would be interested in! I suggested it to her today and she replied saying she would be interested!!
Never been mormon, but I love your storytelling , and learning more and more about Mormon religion and lifestyle. I started looking at Mormon vloggers years ago, and then to learn everything that they do not tell you as vloggers is crazy much.🙈 I love MSP , looking forward to every episode. Love from Norway ❤️🇸🇯
It’s funny how people think that Mormons are goofy- yet, most of what we see on the surface is the tip of the ice berg Mormonism. Most Mormons don’t even know how crazy Mormonism is
I'm German and served my Mission in the England London Mission from 2005 to 2007. I was a convert at age 18 and 23 when i started my Mission. With 37 i resigned.
My patriarchal blessing never said I'd be a mother. It did say I was going to be 'a leader of the people'. I remember my mom being so upset because she knew I'd never have children, but so excited because she thought for sure I was going to be a great leader in the church. 😂 Here I am, a mother of 2 and a leader to no one.
Good for you. You are the leader of your life. Not some rich old white men who have no idea what life is for us the commons, the sheep so to speak. They always gotta compare us to some wild animal. The fish, the sheep, the heard of (insert animal), the flock of (insert bird) yuck. Happy leading mama❤
My friends wife said that she would be a great mother here on earth. With many children. Medically she can't have children now at 48 her and my friend left the church because of all the lying by the leaders.
If you have two children and you are teaching them Christian morals then your patriarchal blessing has come to pass as you are leading them in righteousness.❤
Thanks Hayley! I identify a lot with your point of view growing up. Thanks John for accepting a paycheck. Mormons especially don't know how to accept compensation for what they are worth (it's a blessing and a curse). I continually donate to this podcast because I believe in the Mormon Stories mission and appreciate your approach. Thanks for giving us crazy mormons a platform to speak and to listen.
That was a great episode. I’m a never Mormon who just loves listening to religious and cult stories. I did grow up Christian and have a hard time not judging people who believe in all of this and don’t open their eyes but I try to keep at at bay 😭😭 I’m agnostic and have been since I left the church in high school.
Haley is such a courageous young person. It was such a pleasure to listen to her story. I was much inspired by her. Your 'being called' to do the podcast - it is so important for others to hear you.
John Dehlin u are so awesome and humble and willing to promote others and other podcasts! U are a legend!!! I am a never-mo but grew up in the Deep South as an atheist….so I connect in the intellectual discussions on religion and how and why religion was created!
the dichotomy she talks about of being a perfectionist and wanting praise but also pushing back and not really buying it is so real. they dont sound like characteristics that could present at the same time but they totally can and do. its a really confusing and stressful state to be in and try to process. especially as a teen i remember trying to express how i felt but then feeling so guilty because of the negative attention i would get which eventually led to feeling shame for who i was and the way i saw the world. it took me a while to really feel like i could express myself authentically because of the trauma of repeatedly being told i was in the wrong for feeling the way i felt or doing things the way i did. its still something im trying to unpack now
I remember many times when total strangers, usually women, would come up to me in places like Walmart and adjust my garment sleeves or collar if they were showing even slightly. I didn’t even know these older women and it was very awkward and uncomfortable, especially as I was struggling to raise 5 children, manage my own ADHD and now some stranger would just tell me I was dressing inappropriately. This happened when I lived in Logan, Utah in the 2000s. I saw men’s garment bottoms showing out of the bottom of their shorts and top of their shirts, no one ever corrected those men. What is wrong with the Mormon culture? This is only one of many awkward things I experienced, and now looking back so inappropriate. Now my teenager girls are dealing with these things. I don’t handle that stuff at all like that.
This really speaks to how Mormonism teaches its members that their bodies are not their own. I’m so sorry this happened to you and I’ve had similar experiences. Thank you for sharing ❤
Although I’ve never been a Mormon, I was part of a fundamentalist evangelical Christian tradition for years. So I usually find something relatable in most episodes. I also have some Masonic ties, so I find your church rituals utterly fascinating. I think the pandemic gave us all the chance to reflect on our spiritual beliefs and see the flaws and harm being done. I am amazed by the articulate strong young women you have interviewed over the last few years. I will continue to tune in.
Grandpa Warner isn't thrilled, but Grandpa Walker is right, she is bad-ass. Independence of thought is a HUGE threat to a cult! And an amazing thing for an individual.
Thank you Hayley for telling your story. A lot of this resonated with me, as someone who stopped going to church a few years ago. Growing up in the church, we just are taught to believe from the time we were born. What you said about deconstructing the church led you to begin deconstructing Christ hit home. I've had friends ask me to their churches and I've tried to get them to understand that and they just don't get it.
I was Mormon for two years. I can tell you a major reason why never-Mormons watch is because they feel the need to make sure they don’t get n a cult, like what signs to look for. We can see this most clearly through ex Mormon’s stories. My favorite two podcast topics are ex Mormons and ex Scientologists.
I think most people's ego (or maybe just my own ) doesn't allow them to think they could get involved in a cult. But from a more detached perspective I like understanding how the mind control works.
Granted, we all think getting into a cult will never happen to me as a person . I will see it and run. But I think the person who is doing the cult, like Jim Jones, are master manipulators and know how to work the system. He made, initially everything about community and togetherness and it worked. Obviously, later when it became obvious people needed to get out, look what happened the kool-aid episode. There is never a sign out that says - beware this group is a cult. We all need to be aware of our surroundings.
Growing up in a church I would not have considered it a cult. As an adult I think all religions are cultist. I’m glad I’m not part of a religion anymore.
I am never Mormon. Very fascinated about Mormonism. As a Non Orthodox Jew and a person who has have never been a gentile any other place on earth, I can see trauma suffered by many. I think these podcasts are valuable. This has been a learning experience.
Thank you for sharing your comment. If you don't mind, I would like to share with you. I served an LDS mission in Japan and had a wonderful opportunity to exchange teachings with Buddhist Priests in two areas that I became good friends with. They taught me that, Buddhism addresses the issue of suffering head-on and offers various teachings and practices to understand and transcend it. The core teachings of Buddhism revolve around the Four Noble Truths, which provide a framework for understanding suffering and its cessation: The Truth of Suffering (Dukkha): Buddhism acknowledges that suffering is an inherent part of life. It encompasses not only physical pain but also mental and emotional dissatisfaction and the unsatisfactory nature of existence itself. The Origin of Suffering (Samudaya): Buddhism teaches that the root cause of suffering is attachment and craving (Tanha). It is the desire for things to be different from how they are, clinging to transient experiences, and the ego's illusion of a separate self. The Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha): Buddhism holds that the cessation of suffering is possible by eliminating attachment and craving. This state is known as Nirvana or liberation, characterized by freedom from suffering, inner peace, and ultimate enlightenment. The Path to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga): Buddhism offers the Noble Eightfold Path as a guide to overcome suffering. It consists of ethical conduct (Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood), mental discipline (Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration), and wisdom (Right Understanding, Right Thought). My friends taught me that, Buddhism encourages individuals to directly confront and investigate suffering through mindful awareness and introspection. Rather than avoiding or denying suffering. They taught me that practitioners are encouraged to develop insight into its nature and causes. This can be done through practices such as mindfulness meditation, contemplation of the impermanence of all phenomena, and developing compassion and loving-kindness towards oneself and others; including some times tough love. Additionally, Buddhism emphasizes the importance of accepting the reality of suffering and developing a compassionate response to alleviate it. This involves cultivating empathy, practicing generosity, and engaging in acts of service and kindness towards others. Overall, Buddhism offers a comprehensive approach to understanding and addressing suffering head-on by investigating its root causes, cultivating wisdom and compassion, and following a path that leads to the cessation of suffering. I was able to share similar knowledge and expeirnces and practices that I learned from my parents who both worked outside the home. They worked as professors at the UofU. They had 9-kids and raised us all with similar values as the single Buddist priests were teaching. I shared with them that I had the best examples in the world. While they weren’t perfect by all means, they always strived for what they believed in, and they along with the teachings of Jesus Christ and my love for knowledge is why I served a mission. I took the approach when I was out there to learn from others which then gave me hundreds of opportunities to teach the pieces they were interested in. My mission president said, “love the Japanese people. Go make friends with them. Learn from them. In turn you will be blessed to share your love of the Gosepl with them as well”. This couldn’t be more true and has been true in my life as a whole. If I hadn't chosen to serve, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make these friends and learn something and share something with them.
I'm an English major, Protestant, never mo who somehow became interested in Mormonism and its culture this year, so it was funny you all talked about that at the end of the show. Learning it all is very much like reading a fascinating, odd, yet often familiar story. Also loved The Things They Carried, but actually in college loved all the Victorian literature, so I'm a little different than you 😂 I hadn't studied Brit Lit in high school and loved it in college. I'm also a mom of young kids and worked part-time for 5 years with little kids until recently and being a mom is my only job right now. It's super tough when as a woman wanting to do all the things and knowing that's not possible, at least for me. You're amazing and you'll figure it out. We women are very giving. Boundaries are hard. Just fyi, the NT wasn't written hundreds of years after Jesus and the book Zealot was criticized a lot by non-Christian and Christian scholars. Last thing - before Hayley said she wanted to be a writer I was thinking that she should write. Her quirky humor came out a bit during the show - I think she'd be a tremendous author.
The earliest written parts of the NT were from at least a hundred years after the death of Jesus, and many were written two hundred years after, both long after everyone who knew him was dead. It was preserved in oral culture before someone wrote it down. Reference to Zealot or not, these are facts the majority of biblical scholars agree on.
@@katieramos5868 can you share your source? Scholars say the gospels were written 40-70 years after Jesus' death. The dating seems to be based on the gospels occurring after the destruction of the temple (otherwise they would be prophetic) and Mark occuring first. But if Mark is a speech that referenced Matthew and Luke and Jesus was a prophet they can be dated earlier. Scholars date Paul's letters to 20-30 years from Jesus death and he quotes hymns and creeds established before that. Look into 1 Corinthians 15.
I’ve never been a Mormon but grew up in Lutheran fundamentalism, this podcast has been really amazing to listen to. I’m always surprised to hear the similarities and differences every episode, (and I loved hearing you get excited about her grandfather)
I served in the Berlin Mission as well with Zwickau being one of my areas in 2006. Though it wasn’t my first area, I remember having very similar struggles at the beginning of my mission: jet-lagged far too long, trying to be obedient, being scared/depressed when success was scarce. It was very interesting how many things I could relate to during the interview, specifically about the mission. Not surprising to learn that “the work” hasn’t changed at all. No one wanted to listen to me, either. Though, sisters always seemed to have more success than elders. When you mentioned that it felt like a game, that is spot on. Being on a mission in Germany became a game where I wasn’t in real life and my objective was to convert people. I couldn’t grasp that they had real lives and real problems that I couldn’t fix with missionary work. I had a very hard time trying to figure out why our finding strategies weren’t working. It was miserable. I didn’t enjoy trying to do missionary work but I loved being in Germany. I’m sorry for the difficult parts of your mission because I experienced them to a certain extent as well.
I was gardening wearing my headset half off and then my Mormon neighbor struck up a conversation with me, normally longer but left in a hurry. They are Utah devout married in the temple Mormans... I wonder if they recognized John's voice? I guess time will tell 😅
I love that I get asked by Mormons if I listen to Mormon Stories, especially after the billboards were up. I love to say OH YOU BET I DO! Then they change the subject 😊
No man has any right to criticize or shame a female’s choice of clothing. Plain and simple. What an awful thing to do to young teen. God is weeping over the cult of Mormon. 💔🙏💔
I had a harder time relating to this one because she's so much younger than me and didnt live her adult life in the church, and leave after she had already raised kids to believe it. She has the rest of her life ahead of her to live still. Many of us gave our whole adult (and childhood) lives and our childrens lives to the church. Its just a whole different level. I wish her the best though and am happy for her. It will be interesting to see where she is in 20 years.
I left the church at 21, when I moved out of my parents house. Now I’m 32 and I have 2 kids and really don’t know if I believe in god or not. I find I crazy the fact that I grew up going to the church 2-3 times a week and how my kids don’t even know who God and Jesus are 🤣🙈
Having been an expo for 40 years-fairly isolated from friends and family-your podcasts have been so comforting, validating and mental lifesaver. You may want to explore Tokyo South Mission under Delbert Groberg-that started my exmo journey-
We were made to feel like we hadn't caught the vision yet by Kikuchi and that we needed to emulate Tokyo South's "success" during the Groberg years. Some in our mission tried it and it was a mess for the rest of us to try and clean things up afterwards.
I am so encouraged that those who have been influenced by the LDS doctrine are beginning to look at the truth. Only truth will withstand the test of time. We can be so fooled by the emotions we experience in the name of religion. Stay true to your conscience.
The stories about the holy ghost being what you now recognize as religious anxiety, is SO identifiable. I am now diagnosed with OCD since my 20s, but left the church at 18. I was OBSESSIVE (literally) with prayer and "promptings". I prayed very specifically for certain things, with the fear that if I didn't, the bad thing would happen. I prayed before every bite of food, before every car ride/drive, beginning the school day, trying something for the first time, literally *anything*. Any time I felt the "holy ghost" (anxiety and panic) I was praying constantly. Mostly mentally, but definitely also out loud.
I’m a member of the church and am very open about people’s experiences - so thank you Hayley for sharing and being willing to do so! I’ve been listening to a few podcasts here and there to understand people’s stories because you can’t just put people in a box to judge how and why they left their faith. For those who have gone through this experience and maybe even John can comment as well, how do people reconcile their relationship with God and Jesus the Christ after losing the perspective that they once had concerning deity? Do most people try to keep that relationship but change the way they view it? Or do most people abandon it altogether? For context, I believe that anyone praying to God is praying to the same God that I pray to but potentially with a different understanding of His nature. So, I would tend to believe this belief is carried on by keeping the relationship, but I could be wrong.
I've left but still believe in God, less sure about Jesus. I've gravitated towards Buddhism. I know a lot of people that have left and I'd say 85% still at least believe in God.
I’m actually still an active member, but non-believing, or PIMO (physically in, mentally out) as I’ve found many call it. Basically, church culture is far to strong and ingrained in the area and family, making it far to disruptive to try and actually leave. My issue is that I’ve simply never had any personal experience that I could identify as a spiritual witness. And believe me, I’ve tried, for decades. I’ve done all the right things (activity, prayer, scriptures, tithing, mission, temple marriage, callings). I’ve stayed worthy (never any alcohol, smoking, drugs) and my wife is literally the only girl I’ve ever kissed, so even chastity rules have been followed pretty well! And I’ve been pretty sincere in asking and basically living like I believe, but still nothing. So recently I’ve had to challenge myself and see what the deal is. I thought I would start with the safe issue and see about why I should believe in god in the first place. Laying out my thoughts and experiences, as well as looking at debates on the existence of a god, I quickly found that I really had no good reason to believe. After that it wasn’t too hard to unravel the poor truth claims of the church and find that they were far more explainable from a man made explanation than a god or faith based reasoning. Ultimately, why shouldn’t I have received some type of confirmation if there really was a god?
In the US, there are basically two trends: one is to join a mainstream Christian church, often in the he evangelical spectrum. See e.g. the Tanners. The second trend is to continue deconstructing not only Mormonism, but also Christianity, and ending up with a secular worldview.
i think it definitely depends on the individual. in my experience with unpacking my spirituality the way ive reconciled my relationship with god is by defining what god means to me and being okay with it not necessarily aligning with the god i was taught of growing up. to me its more about my personal relationship with god and who i feel god is. i do think its interesting to think about my upbringing and how it could and more than likely influences the way i view my spirituality now even as i distance myself from the church as an organization. i still feel a connection to the spiritual side of myself even though i dont align with the organization in many ways.
I am German and am smiling all the time and many people here find that reallly weird😂. So you are right, to smile on the street with people you don't know isn't common here😂.
That’s how it is in the PNW/Seattle area. Some parts of the USA have very friendly, genuine people…some have the fake friendly…some have the cold & unfriendly. I’m not sure Germans fit any of these categories. They are blunt & I love that. I think that’s more authentic.
never Mormon here- I just adore your podcast and the guests you bring on. Hearing her talk it’s crazy to me how we can all have such individual, nuanced upbringings yet have similar overarching experiences. Like talking about confusing anxiety for the Holy Ghost, or her feeling conflicted about perfectionism in the pursuit of praise in the midst of being critiqued for when she would exercise her agency (and the entailing shame). I wish we could all talk together in person and give each other a bunch of verbal love / retroactively hug ourselves. She seems like a fantastic lady and I thank her for sharing, and you guys for platforming who you do, how you do. I also really enjoyed the cohost and his insightful questions. Great episode!
I know exactly what she's saying. I felt exactly the same way, I got on that marriage train and didn't know how to get off. Unfortunately, I knew it was the wrong thing, I just didn't know how to stop the train 😔.
Hayley’s thoughts about going home early from her mission not being an option, is how I felt about leaving a temple marriage. I suffered 16 years and my children were affected/damaged because I didn’t think I could leave!!! I used to hope he would get into a bad car accident & die. That’s a very dark place to be. Of course it feels embarrassing to say that out loud, but unless you’ve been under all the pressure & the power of the belief system, & in a terrible situation, you may not understand. My children & I went through so much just to get out of that. He stalked me for 5 years after & bought me a grave too (after I left him). I was lucky to get out alive. I had to discover the truth about the “church” & resign, before I could leave him. That’s how much the “church” had a hold over me.
Oh gosh, I just want to give you the biggest hug! My mother was in the exact same situation, although she got out of it when my father had a heart attack on a river rafting tour. Unfortunately, the church still has a hold on her, and I desperately want her to wake up and see the truth about this 200-year scam that's making her miserable!
I just want to say I can resonate with Hayley on so much of her story just as a boy instead of a girl. I am also the same age as Hayley and I left the church when I was 19 due to extreme anxiety/pressure to serve a mission. It caused so many problems between my family and I which they do not understand to this day. Thank you for sharing your story Hayley, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. I’ve recently stumbled upon this podcast due to the Ruby Franke/Jodi Hilderbrandt story and I can’t believe I didn’t know about this podcast until now. I am in complete shock with how much I didn’t realize growing up and how normal I thought so much was because I didn’t know anything otherwise. Thank you John for your incredible work, it has offered me a completely different perspective and I am in many ways disappointed I didn’t understand all this years ago. Your personal story coupled with your tone and respectful way of speaking on church issues, I really respect what you do. I have been binge watching episodes on UA-cam while I’m not busy with law school.
Loving how John's talking $$$ at the end of the video loud and clear. People, take note!! 😁 I love Hayley's vibe!! She comes across sweet, but is more than ready to have her say. 💕
I did the Church thing. I had a very successful mission. I was the "top producer" during the time I was in the country I served in. I was told that years later when I bumped into my Mission President. I got back, I went to BYU, ,I tried to get married, but local UT families didn't want somebody who wasn't of "good Mormon stock" or a prominent family to marry into theirs. I got my degree, I left, started a very successful career and went out one night to a restaurant near my home, and met my wife. One date and we knew it was the right thing. Not a member, I told my Bishop and he recommended against it. I said sorry love conquers all. Now we have been together for 37 years and all is well. There have been ups and downs. I have still been active in Church now and again, but now it's so tiring to try to ask why some of the members are so political. Why are they haters? Why are they hypocrites? I have some friends who have moved way up in the Church and I know them for decades. They haven't changed but moved up because of becoming extremely wealthy. I can't see any other reason, as they did not live the commandments of the Church. Maybe they suddenly repented but I don't think so. You have cash, you are a major success, you move up the hierarchy. That's how I see things. And a lot of my Church friends have left and are leaving after spending their whole lives in the Church.
Thank you for sharing your heartfelt story and expressing your feelings about your experiences with the Church. It's clear that your journey has been filled with both triumphs and challenges, and I appreciate your openness in discussing them. It's unfortunate to hear that you faced difficulties when it came to finding acceptance within the local Utah Mormon community when you were looking to get married. It can be disheartening when people prioritize social status or lineage over genuine connections and love. I had just the opposite experience as you being from pioneer stock and ultimately rejected after 3 kids because my ex-wife decided to leave the church of who wasn't of pioneer stock. However, it's inspiring to learn that you found your soulmate and have been happily together for 37 years. Love truly knows no boundaries, and your decision to follow your heart was a testament to the power of love in your life. Your observations about some members of the Church being political, hateful, or hypocritical are valid concerns and is true in some maybe even many cases. It can be confusing and frustrating to witness such behavior, especially when it seems contradictory to the principles and teachings of the faith. It's essential to remember that individuals within any organization, including religious ones, can have diverse beliefs, opinions, and attitudes. Unfortunately, some people may use their positions or wealth for personal gain rather than living according to the values they profess. It's understandable that these experiences have left you questioning certain aspects of the Church and its members. It's important to note that not everyone within the Church shares the same views or acts in the same way. While some individuals may disappoint or confuse us, there are also many who strive to live their faith sincerely and make a positive difference in their communities. If you find the current state of the Church tiring or disheartening, it may be helpful to seek out like-minded individuals or communities within the Church who share your values and concerns. Connecting with those who approach their faith with sincerity, kindness, and humility can provide a sense of support and belonging. Ultimately, your spiritual journey is deeply personal, and it's important to follow the path that feels right for you. Your commitment to love, despite the obstacles you faced, is a beautiful testament to the power of compassion and understanding. May you continue to find peace and fulfillment in your own way, wherever your path leads you.
Hi John, Margie (I hope I spelled that correctly! Lol), and co-hosts..I just want to say that I just recently started watching Mormon Stories (the past month or so) and am so impressed and glad for all of you and your guests who have seen the light and left "the church" aka cult. I have always wondered how so many seemingly smart people have been fooled for so many years. I'm a Christian and since young adulthood when I was able to really make adult decisions for myself I recognized Mormonism as being a cult and have been flabbergasted that so many people buy into the crazy antics that Mormonism puts on it's members, and this is before just finding out about the temple craziness! My worst thoughts about this cult were validated since hearing all of the wonderful stories on your podcast. It's very very sad to me and my heart often breaks hearing the hurt and shame that all of you have experienced but the healing and eventual happiness that I have seen is so heart-warming and touching that I continue watching you every day. I do want to say that I'm sad that Christianity hasn't gotten a very good wrap on your show and I have heard some things that aren't necessarily 100% truthful. I'm not a church going person and don't read my Bible hardly ever, nor do I pray very often because I'm at a very dark place in my life, but I do know that Jesus loves me and every single person on this earth no matter where they are in their life or faith and the fact that my and everyone else's salvation is guaranteed if they do what the Bible tells us to do in order to receive salvation, gives me a comfort that I treasure. I do pray that you and everyone else in the world will read a modern translation of the Bible and find the simple truths for themselves so they may find the comfort that this forgiven sinner found. If I may direct you to Tiff Shuttle- worth, on UA-cam, I think he is a good place to start finding simple Bible truths. In the meantime congratulations for finding freedom from the richest cult on the planet ( lol....I don't know this to be a fact, but from what has been disclosed lately I feel confident in assuming this!) Thanks again for your faithful and taxing work! Kelli (ps I'm around your age John and a never Mormon just to give you an idea of my age group)(don't know exactly why I think that's important!?)
Your almost to the point. I’m someone who has completely deconstructed from Christianity and am able to see the parallels of control in all religion. Keep learning about what you believe is the “truth”. Hopefully you get there one day and realize that you in fact control your own “light”.
“I was just used to being in some amount of pain” is like, welcome to being a woman :( it’s so unfortunate. I’m so so sorry you had to go through that.
I served a mission in the Frankfurt Germany Mission (2006-2008). Thank you for sharing your experiences. I agree with your analysis. It is difficult. A lot of Germans, where I was, thought that we were Amish. I am sorry to hear that it caused you mental distress. It is the land of poets and thinkers, and there is nothing about the gospel that truly interests them.
Agreed. I was in the Hamburg mission from 2008-2010 (I left at the same time the mission closed and was split between the Frankfurt and Berlin missions).
@@charlesmendeley9823 What do you mean? Do you mean people who were Amish and get baptized in the Mormon Church? The Amish are not weird. They live in an oppressively strict community under a religious theocracy. What is cool about that? Also, in Germany, some people genuinely thought that we were the authentic Amish. Some literally believed that we lived without electricity. They did not realize that we were missionaries of the Mormon Church until we told them. Then that usually started a conversation about Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses because again they did not know what the Mormon Church really was. This was not some great contacting and missionary opportunity because once we would tell an investigator about the First Vision and the Book of Mormon that was usually the last time we ever saw that person.
I just hate that its so easy for people in the church to invalidate these kinds of feelings. When she talked about her anxiety all I could think was "Well they'll just write her off as crazy" and not realize the real issues caused by ideologies in the church or its "culture"
I love and appreciate this podcast. I was raised in organized/fundamentalist religion and relate to many of the stories shared. I learned valuable insights. She mentioned the sugar addict in the AA meeting with her dad and it was discounted by everyone. I may have misunderstood the response. Perhaps the response was more in line w mormon practices/responses and not so much towards the actual addiction. With the knowledge that I may have misunderstood the responses, I want to share sugar addiction is real. I have sugar addiction (sugar free for over a yr now) and it negatively impacted my life in many ways. Further, there are studies that show, for some(just as w drugs), sugar stimulates the same parts of the brain as drugs/alcohol. Similiar to drugs/alcohol, sugar addiction also has adverse affects, sometimes deadly, on not only one's health but also can negatively impact family dynamics and other relationships. The behaviors of a sugar addict very much so align with that of any other addict, so much so that there are sugar/food addiction groups and rehabs that follow the same big book (12steps).
As a retired policewomen in the UK I have always had an issue where the Bishop interviews underage teens, particularly when it is a chastity/sexual matter. I find this totally inappropriate behaviour. I I don’t buy into the Bishop representing God thinking. In law when interviewing an underage teen a second person must be present. This is a protection for both the interviewer and the interviewee. Some Bishops make young women feel dirty or less of a person - appalling to do this to someone at a vulnerable age.
I grew up Jehovah’s Witness. It’s so scary how similar all of this is. You could literally pull out the Mormon "buzz words" and put Jehovah’s Witness "buzz words" in and they're sooo creepily similar. I they have roots that are the same, but even evolving so similar is nuts.
It's interesting to learn about missions because in a town where I live in Croatia, there would be posters inviting people to practise English with native American speakers, which I was very wary of, but when I see Mormons in pairs, they are just very polite, well dressed kids. But those English lessons always sounded like a ruse.
Never Mormon listener/watcher from Germany (living in Zwickau, the small town in eastern Germany where Hayley served part of her mission) here. I found this channel several years ago as I was gathering information about the LDS. The more I learned, the whole thing seemed quite odd to me - how can grown, intelligent people believe in such fairytales? Anyhow, I kept watching these stories, especially the ones with missionaries involved as I happened to get to know two of them while dealing with genealogy. (The ward here in Zwickau has or used to have a kind of archive with microfilms from different churches in my area). I think this must have been around 2017, 2018. They were super sweet, supported me in my strive to find my ancestors and actually never tried to proselytize me, share the gospel or teach me anything. We briefly talked about religion and faith in general and I think I made it clear from the beginning that never in my wildest dreams I would ever join this "club" as I consider myself an atheist. They invited me to some of the gatherings of their ward here in Zwickau (like a women's circle) and I actually attended one of them. Nice afternoon, everyone was welcoming but I never went back. They contacted me using WhatsApp but were never intrusive and stopped writing at all when I didn't answer anymore. Fun fact - the building in Zwickau where the missionaries (or at least some of the female missionaries) live/used to live is right across the street from one of my towns most famous ice cream parlors. So it's relatable to find some comfort there when times were hard for Hayley.
Nice to hear even females feel that way on a mission. I remember sitting in my first area in Brazil thinking FML… I’m stuck in this for two years. Going home isn’t an option. I have PTSD and nightmares of having to go back out again… it’s been almost 20 years since I served, And 14 years inactive.
I think I've figured out why they keep the missionaries so locked down. If they actually interacted with the cultures in a free way there would probably be a better chance of them being converted out of Mormonism than them converting people to mormonism.
@@jeffk464 it’s solely about output. If you were able to do literally anything other than missionary work, we’d have done it. They only get you for 2 years, so gotta juice every minute to get those baptisms. I remember mission gossip going around that when my mission president first got there he lead by “the spirit” letting missionaries do their thing. When baptism numbers dipped, he got destroyed by the area authority and shamed. He was only about numbers after that. Was a big salesman role after that. How to get people to listen, then baptized. I remember even listening to trainings on how to challenge investigators go get baptized in the first discussion. What a sales pitch
@jeffk464 yup....I think it was stated on Mormon Stories that a leader that left the church acknowledged that they are area in most areas the mission is more about it reinforcing being a TBM for the missionary rather than actually converting people
So interesting to hear you discuss your never Mormon listeners. For me it started with an ex-fundamentalist evangelical person’s UA-cam channel. Then Leah Rimini did that series on Scientology. I found Mormon Stories when you were interviewing people from a number of different high demand religions. My interest is in trying to get an understanding of why people would embrace authoritarianism (especially in the form of Christian nationalism) so wholeheartedly. Then I found that the stories were giving me hope that even if people have been indoctrinated since birth they can still want to get out. I love hearing how aware they have become about privilege. All of this shows me that the human heart leans towards freedom and authenticity no matter how much groups will use fear to quell those desires.
I am a rebel Mormon. I converted at age 50 and have ALWAYS had the attitude that I will wear whatever I please. And NO youth should be alone in a closed room with a bishop!!
What a great interview! Thoroughly enjoyed Hailey’s entire story. I loved hearing about both of your perspectives on never-Mormons as one over here 🙋🏼♀️ who has been interested in Mormon culture and history for probably 10 years now 😱 It blew my mind when I discovered mormons aren’t FLDS- or Amish-looking and pass as “normal Americans”. I’d been to salt lake as a teen and thought “wow I didn’t even see one Mormon there!” 😂 So many of my family and friends have also had the same realization and we talk about it casually and on the reg.
I'm only 10 minuets in and just realized this is a 4 hour episode! I love listening to these at work & this one will get me all the way through my morning :)
What a highly intelligent, energetic and self aware young woman. Her response to John when he brought up how traumatic speaking as an ex-mormon is, was mature. Let the younger generation have their own response, traumatic or joyful. They have plenty of time to experience the negatives, and in fact, Hayley shows she is very aware of the negatives, and gives much thought all the time about how to respond. Sometimes John, it seems like your personal therapeutic needs leak out and are put on your guests - understandable, but be careful.
I feel like often times he tries to speak for everyone though. It is scary to speak up as a non Mormon or ex Mormon. It’s been hard navigating my own life knowing my in laws think that I am sewing seeds of doubt, or speaking for satan. That I’ll never be truly happy and they should never take council from me. The church has done a really good job at taking the power from anyone who wants to speak up. I also feel like the church culture has changed a lot in the last 20 years. The younger generation has access to the internet and podcasts. You’re able to kind of reach a larger audience and hide behind a screen. I’m happy they are able to do so, but in the past it was oh you just have to say it to peoples face. And that’s much harder to do. So I think it’s less trauma leaking, but more the entire dynamic of speaking up as a non member has changed.
@@ristopherobbins yes, it's very scary. As a young mother, I chose to leave my husband and his family, who were not Mormon, but were very toxic for me and my children. I instinctively knew I would have to go "non- contact" with every in-law family member to protect myself. Unfortunately they took it out on our three young children, who they still saw, and who were punished emotionally and mentally for my "transgressions." I was unable to protect them.
@@argosz8046 hopefully you were able to educate them at the very least. Give them the tools and history. That’s so messed up. I’m so sorry you went through that.
@@ristopherobbins Thank you. I turn 68 yo tomorrow, and my eldest daughter turns 50 yo in December. Two weeks ago was the first time she allowed me the opportunity to voice my regret that I couldn't protect her when she was a child. She still seeks out their toxic relationships, despite their cruelty she still wants their approval, and still sees any comment from me as critical. I believe bitterness is a wasted emotion left over from anger, but it makes me very sad. There is a glimmer of hope for some small amount of healing between us as I am quite unwell.
I served a mission in the Netherlands between 91-93 and probably had a very similar experience as Hayley’s in Germany. Needless to say, I left the church a year after I came home.
What comes to my mind with these bishops humiliating sexual transgressions is that they haven’t learned from the Savior. His compelling discussion with the woman at the well. His compassion for the woman caught in the very act of adultery. These leaders need to understand the teachings of Jesus Christ. Whatever there calling. Bishop Prophets etc.
Mission at 1:43. Some part of Germany is part of something called the Bavarian Mission. This comprises German speaking parts of the countries of Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and France. Missionaries have little success often baptizing no people in the two year mission period. But they do learn several dialects of German.
I think the success is equally bad in all three German missions. They can barely replace the people leaving. They shut down the Facebook English class due to lack of attendance, and their portal chat is not staffed, so you basically get no response. 😂
"leaning 3 different German accents" is quite generous for the low level of language comprehension expected upon arrival and with so repetitive tasks/limited engagement Best luck to anyone trying
Patriarchal blessings at 1:30:00. The blessing is based usually on a short interview with the person. That is why they are short. I was told mine in very long compared to other blessings. Most of what's in there came true. But these were because I worked toward those goals and followed through. I think some patriarchs do a better job with the whole process than others do.
Married in five months at 1:59:27. I knew someone who met his wife at the temple. She was a RM and temple worker. They were engaged in six weeks and married/sealed six weeks after that. They have been married for 8 years and have three kids.
We had a family member that was told, on their mission, that they weren't there to bring people to Christ. They were told they were only there to baptize. They were also told non members couldn't know Christ until they were baptized. Other missionaries told them that every missionary had depression and they had to just get over it. No support or help was provided.
So just so you know. At one point where you are questioning what happens if. On my mission in Uganda the following happened. UNESCO heritage site in my area burned down. - the outcome of which was while we were having district meeting the next day we had to lock the compound gates as protestors with guns were parading down the street. We called assistants and they had no clue, were president is travelling ect. End of story we got 3 days waiting in our apartment to allow the situation to calm down. We had terrorist action at a bunch of locations in town - bombs, we ended up spending another 2-3 days in residence. So unless the terrorist action was a start of war, you would have just been sent to your room to wait for it to be safe.
Oh man, some parts about confessing to the bishop are so relatable to me as a Catholic. In Catholic confession, lying about or even deciding not to confess a sin you knew you committed is actually another sin.
I am also Catholic (cradle Catholic) and worked in the church for 15 years in youth ministry. Parts of this were so triggering to me especially revolving around purity culture and confessing my "sins" to someone else.
@@hopejeffcoat1819 Yes! I am also a cradle Catholic and grew up in very conservative, fundamentalist circles. I am still unpacking some purity culture myths many years later!
Yepp shamed for my shirt choice the first time i visited my now ex-husband's church... i was 19 in bible college, and the worship leader yelled at me for trying to distract her husband.... the devastation i felt is beyond words.
I reluctantly allowed myself to be Baptized and Confirmed after over TWO Years of Love Bombing and 6 sets of Missionaries sent to my door various Mormons repeatedly asking me "how they could help"? And telling me they believed "Heavenly Father had sent me"iafter which I submitted my documents pertaining to a legal situation I had been struggling with. The Church Completely Iced me Out and Turned it's Back on me. I was Never told why or even given a face to face interview. Ouch ! Not Churchly and Definitely Not Godly !
I'm a non-mormon, married to an ex-mormon... living in Utah--got married and had my kid. In hopes to learn about the meanings behind my unexplained verbage like holy ghost, "obedience", why ppl get emotional during certain times -blah blah via--I basically had mormon missionaries come to my door--*new mom, feel alone, etc* --learning through this podcast and zelph on the shelf has taught me WAY more...about mormonsim of course--in a much more honest & in depth way! I feel a different level of security in myself, around my -very active in laws and around my neighbors --i wish i had found MS and ZOTS when I first moved here...bc being the major culture here --i DID feel the odd pressure to adapt or try to not offend them -- which backfired--for years-- causing anxiety etc.. My goal one day is to simply have a drink -coffee or alchoholic drink--at a restaurant with my in laws. Sounds so simple but would be monumental.🎉
Fascinating. I was a Timpview Thunderchicken too. I wonder if I knew any of these rebels back then. It's true, everybody's parents were BYU professors to some extent. Great dive into the history.
I grew up in a family who was religious but didn’t go to church much. I also had to go through similar sense of I have to be “good” to have a good life. It took me a long process what is a healthy relationship with my creator. It is ongoing. So much nonsense.
Hi John! I'm trying to see if you or John Larson would please do an episode about the excommunication of "Annalee Skarin". She wrote an amazing book called "Ye Are Gods" and they excommunicated her for it! Luckily for all of us she continued to write, and has written LOTS of amazing books since then FULL of TRUTH! Nobody has ever talked about her, and that is why I'm requesting. It will blow your mind if you look into it! 😉
Love this young woman’s story 😊💕 On an unrelated note, it seems a lot of Mormons pronounce g’s as hard. Sing isn’t sing it’s sinG. Is this a cultural thing or region specific? Idk, it’s something that stands out to me and I was just curious
Wow I relate so much to your story, we went through a lot of very similar experiences. You’re just three ish years older than me, if we were the same age we probably would have been in the English program together too!
Often a story makes national news over some school in Utah not letting girls in prom cause their dresses are not garment covering, though they don’t wear garments yet in high school.
Wow, I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, but my ears perked up at the AA references. I was in a relationship, then married to an alcoholic. He went to AA and I was in Alanon. The marriage lasted 15 years, I ended it because of domestic abuse. But what really caught my ear was the off hand comment about sugar addiction. Hey y’all, it is REAL. I have struggled with sugar addiction since my early teenage years. I’m not really onboard with calling it a disease, but it is very real. (Ok, now I’ll shut up and watch the rest of the podcast!)
I grew up in the heart of LDS land. Central Utah. Went to Korea. One day I met an old Buddhist Monk who listened to all my teachings and I listened to his. At the end, I had a lot of questions. I met with him once a week for several months. This man had nothing but an old shack, a hot plate and he cooked my homemade noodles every time. When I cam home, I had so so many questions and read hundreds of books. I became an atheist by the time I was 25. I have no ill will towards the LDS. My oldest son went to Hungary and he became an atheist by the time he was 28. but he keeps it quiet. My second son (both are physicians) is married to a super mormon wife who drags him to church and he basically plays the role. But I know he's not happy, just like I was.
I am a never Morman but find these podcasts fascinating ❤ Thank You team for doing what you do. I find myself wondering if there will be churches in a 100 yrs, especially if we meet beings from other planets.
I wish Haley had spoken more in depth about her reasons for decontructing gender roles in her marriage. I understand that they want to change how they navigate who does what. What I don't understand from her responses is why that is necessary. What isn't working in their following the traditional gender roles they were taught? I am not suggesting there are not problems with rigid adherence to traditional gender roles, but I did not hear what the central motivation is for changing how they navigate the daily tasks that she and her husband have to perform. What's not working in what they are doing and is a complete decontruction and role reversal (?) necessary to succeed in their marriage? I waa raised in a Roman Catholic home where traditional gender roles was the rule but not rigidly so. I am still a Christian who adheres to traditional gender roles but with flexibility. As a never Mormom, perhaps I don't understand the rigidity of Mormon doctrine on marriage and family life. Anyway, I'm trying to understand since I've never seen mormonism lived out up close. I was raised with some messed up practices by failure of my parents to speak more than superficially about the christian faith and what it means. The only day to day practice of faith was saying grace before we ate. Although we went to mass every Sunday, we never discussed what was preached or taught. My parents did teach us the 10 commanments and we were severly punished for breaking them, but faith wasnt a positive value as much as it was a "thou shalt not . . . " proclamation of rules that got you in trouble if you broke them. And unfortunately, that had almost everything to do with my parents and not with Jesus and the gospel.
Your experience with the bishop regarding wearing a bikini has me fuming! As a father of 3 daughters it angers me that the bishop wouldn’t talk to your parents and make it a matter for your parents to address. How dare he pull you into his office and humiliate you like that. He was way inappropriate. 😡
Speaking as a non Mormon, I watch, because there has always been a secret about the practices for so many years. I have always thought at any religion with secrets as a cult.
Never a Mormon, here. Really interesting show. Ty. I’ll check out the podcast. Speaking of protecting abusers, didn’t AZ’s Supreme Court just legally relieved the “Church” & its affiliates, from mandated reporting laws. Insane. They are now legally (and financially) exempt from mandated SA reporting requirements.
At 1:55:20. Many missionaries feel this way. They are told to use old techniques from the 80s and 90s and use them today in 2023. Covid forced some of those tactics to go online instead in 2020-2022. But they are back to live in person teaching. The success rates in the 80s and 90s were much higher in Canada. We had 75 convert baptisms in 1999 and 64 in 2000 in my branch. We also had three companionships in the ward (6 elders). Members gave a lot of referrals which they no longer do. This eventually led to ward status. Those old techniques including member exchanges worked back then. We also had some success reactivating inactive members from less than a two year period of inactivity. That same ward today baptizes less than 10 people a year. People are not interested in the LDS church (or any other church) anymore.
Quick marriages at 2:01:42. It seems crazy to the outside world to meet and marry in five months. But for decades missionaries have been told by mission presidents and stake presidents to marry as quickly as possible. The period traditionally has been within one year of returning home. And ideally both the husband and wife are expected to be virgins on their wedding night and have a temple sealing.
About the Bible though (NOT to be confused with the book of mormon): "The four canonical gospels-Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John-were all composed within the Roman Empire between 70 and 110 CE (± five to ten years) as biographies of Jesus of Nazareth, written about a generation after the crucifixion of Jesus (ca. 30 CE)" -Source: Columbia University of New York website (and many more reputable sources and historians say the same: the Bible is more historically accurate than the great majority of ancient litterature...it has not been falcified with time and it WAS NOT written hundreds of years later.
Never Mormon listener here... I'll say, I love Mormon Stories because it's not just Mormon stories, it's human stories. I love the in depth, long form interviews. And even though I may not connect to all experiences, I think you might be surprised at how much people connect to some of these themes as just a part of general culture and/or other religions.
Yes! I'm also a never Mormon! I knew a Mormon kid growing up, and then a friend dated more than one Mormon/ex-Mormon. It gave me a peek into that world, and I had some idea of it being a bit culty, but I was missing a lot of the culture and doctrine. The long format interviews are really great to listen to while I'm working on something else, and even though I've never been a member of a high demand religion, I can always find something to relate to. In particular, the experience of finding or finally understanding a huge part of your identity as an adult, having revelations about who you are at your core that is at odds with what you maybe always believed, for me, is really easy to relate to
@@phoenixflamefeather😅pl⁹0p😅⁹p😊😊😊
I'm never-mo as well, and I've got to say that even the parts I don't relate to, I still find very valuable to listen to! It means that I'm learning something new, and gaining understanding for issues that are relevant to other people, since we're all in this together after all, and benefit from understanding each other better and without prejudice.
I feel like a can related even by not being a Mormon, but coming from another religious background. Each episode to me is like a therapy session. I watched many episodes, it is rare to me not to like one, but I did. Didn’t like the person, their attitude. The best episodes in my opinion are the ones involving gays or lesbians. I cried in so many that I can’t count. I watched some of those episodes more than once. We must to learn to love people, we must to love people, period.
Yes!
"Germans don`t really smile", as a German, this is really funny to hear lol
Thanks to you three for doing this interview! I`ve been dying to hear someone talk about their mission in Germany, as i always thought that that must be a really really frustrating mission. People here generally mind their own business and hate getting preached to on the streets. I think that is why, the first time i heard of this concept called "going on a mission" i thought that that was such a strange thing. The way i grew up, if you`re interested in a religion or faith you go and seek it out and look for ways to learn more, but never the other way around. Going from "door to door" was growing up only something i connected with the Jehova Witnesses, which i learnt early on from people around me (and was even hinted at in school) is a cult.
The way Hayley describes how the missionaries were mostly talking to and baptizing immigrants or refugees almost sounds a little bit predatory, as these people are in huge transitional phases of their lives and thus might be more vulnerable and influenceable.
I personally have zero connections to Mormonism (apart from the fact that i have been watching Mormon Stories for years haha), but fun fact, i live in Munich, and every year, that i go to the Oktoberfest, on the walk from a nearby subway station to the Oktoberfest, i walk past a LDS church building. The only reason i noticed it the first time i went to the Oktoberfest is bc it looks so different from all the other houses on that street lol, i was really surprised to see it there
I am also german and not mormon and I had the exact same thought about missionaries teaching refugees. I have to say I was kind of shocked. Especially with them beeing so shut out from a lot of communities because a lot of people have a lot of prejudice and than having these missionaries swoop in. Feels really wrong from my perspective...
@@noran5812 100%
The church actually tells missionaries to look for vulnerable people. Someone going through a rough time, financial difficulties, relationship problems, addiction, death in the family, or other forms of trauma. They do this because damaged individuals are more likely to hang on their every word.
@Julia-co2sl I'm from Munich as well and have been watching Mormon Stories for years :) Totally have to google where the lds building is :)
My great grandfather mother and grandma are German they never smiled. Now I get it.
John, I want to thank you and ALL of your guests. You all are incredibly vulnerable and expose your truths. I’m a Never Mormon, but I had a good friend that was Mormon that committed suicide. The church made him feel so little while he was on a mission trip. It devastated me, but listening to your podcast has shed a light on his life and the torture he went through. Thank you
I ran into listening to this just as I have been served divorce papers from my wife of 15 years. I Really appreciate the insight on your perspective as I have a 13 year old son.
I had a traumatic 2 year mission experience in Mexico 20 years ago. That contributed to me leaning on pills to address the reoccurring nightmares & anxiety disorder.
I’ve attended the dozens of church 12 steps meetings, rehab, marriage counseling, therapy for years to save my marriage. But my wife leaned harder and harder on church based guidance to oust me as a husband, father, breadwinning working man. The years of doctrinal based shaming and leveling insurmountable judgement left me mentally/physically shattered. I don’t expect to find solutions or convenient excuses within Mormon stories. But it’s been good to hear the positive side of your post divorce life.
Hang in there. Divorce absolutely stinks but it gets better on the other side.
I feel your pain & your frustration. I wish you all the luck in the World.
That sucks! I hope you keep moving forward and it sucks less! Rooting for you!
I'm so sorry for what you are going thru. ❤
You matter. Don’t forget that.
Also a never-Mormon listener/subscriber. John, I'm compelled to tell you that I have the utmost admiration and respect for all that you are and all you have done and continue to do. Thank you so much. I absolutely love Mormon Stories, all its content, guests, co-hosts and you!
Telling my young women’s leader about my exciting first kiss and her sending me to meet alone with the bishop at 14 was my first step in leaving the church. So many priorities are screwed up. I couldn’t go to the temple or the dances. Meanwhile my friend’s mormon dad tried to kiss my neck and when I went to the bishop they swept it under the rug and shamed me. With my parent’s addiction and the fact that the church literally bought the bed I sleep in, I really wished for a more loving church and all I got was shame and embarrassment. I relate to this one…. Even as a 43 year old.
It took about a year more to be done completely. It took several more years to wade through the teachings and determine what was true. Leaving as a teenager is a lonely process. Now at 43. I am firm in my belief in Jesus as nondenominational Christian . But even now the habits ingrained in me as a kid are there.
As for the neck kissing pervert. My bishop was a coward but my mother was not. She went up to man, leaned in, dug her long thick nails in his shoulder and said “you ever go anywhere near my daughter again I will hurt you.” She did this quietly with a smile. The man never looked at me and his daughters didn’t either again.
There are many stories that I am sure we all have. Long story short my journey was trauma filled and becoming an adult without Mormons was also hard.
So sorry. 😞😞 I'm glad you found your way out.
@@crystallawson6992Yay for your Mom!
@@jacobsamuelson3181 ok confused 🤔😕 message here.. She's in the Cult or out?
@@crystallawson6992 3 cheers for your mom!
I'm a never mormon, but I'm very familiar with mormon beliefs and culture because I grew up in southern Idaho which has a large mormon popultion. I enjoy listening to post mormon podcasts because it validates so much of what I have seen and taken issue with.
Please get Alyssa on from Married at First Sight Australia! She is from the U.S., living in Australia and was raised LDS. Her (and her family I believe) left the church when her dad came out as gay. She was just on the latest season of Australia’s most popular reality show and her past with Mormonism was part of her story, and she stands strongly with her dad outside of the church now. I think that would be a really interesting episode that lots of people would be interested in! I suggested it to her today and she replied saying she would be interested!!
Never been mormon, but I love your storytelling , and learning more and more about Mormon religion and lifestyle. I started looking at Mormon vloggers years ago, and then to learn everything that they do not tell you as vloggers is crazy much.🙈 I love MSP , looking forward to every episode.
Love from Norway ❤️🇸🇯
It’s funny how people think that Mormons are goofy- yet, most of what we see on the surface is the tip of the ice berg Mormonism. Most Mormons don’t even know how crazy Mormonism is
I'm German and served my Mission in the England London Mission from 2005 to 2007. I was a convert at age 18 and 23 when i started my Mission. With 37 i resigned.
wow, it took you some time...
My patriarchal blessing never said I'd be a mother. It did say I was going to be 'a leader of the people'. I remember my mom being so upset because she knew I'd never have children, but so excited because she thought for sure I was going to be a great leader in the church. 😂 Here I am, a mother of 2 and a leader to no one.
You're a leader to your 2 children! ♥
@davewilkins72 That's exactly what I thought. So much better to lead two beautiful children than anyone in the LDS "Church."
Good for you. You are the leader of your life. Not some rich old white men who have no idea what life is for us the commons, the sheep so to speak.
They always gotta compare us to some wild animal. The fish, the sheep, the heard of (insert animal), the flock of (insert bird) yuck.
Happy leading mama❤
My friends wife said that she would be a great mother here on earth. With many children. Medically she can't have children now at 48 her and my friend left the church because of all the lying by the leaders.
If you have two children and you are teaching them Christian morals then your patriarchal blessing has come to pass as you are leading them in righteousness.❤
Thanks Hayley! I identify a lot with your point of view growing up. Thanks John for accepting a paycheck. Mormons especially don't know how to accept compensation for what they are worth (it's a blessing and a curse). I continually donate to this podcast because I believe in the Mormon Stories mission and appreciate your approach. Thanks for giving us crazy mormons a platform to speak and to listen.
That was a great episode. I’m a never Mormon who just loves listening to religious and cult stories. I did grow up Christian and have a hard time not judging people who believe in all of this and don’t open their eyes but I try to keep at at bay 😭😭 I’m agnostic and have been since I left the church in high school.
Haley is such a courageous young person. It was such a pleasure to listen to her story. I was much inspired by her.
Your 'being called' to do the podcast - it is so important for others to hear you.
John Dehlin u are so awesome and humble and willing to promote others and other podcasts! U are a legend!!! I am a never-mo but grew up in the Deep South as an atheist….so I connect in the intellectual discussions on religion and how and why religion was created!
the dichotomy she talks about of being a perfectionist and wanting praise but also pushing back and not really buying it is so real. they dont sound like characteristics that could present at the same time but they totally can and do. its a really confusing and stressful state to be in and try to process. especially as a teen i remember trying to express how i felt but then feeling so guilty because of the negative attention i would get which eventually led to feeling shame for who i was and the way i saw the world. it took me a while to really feel like i could express myself authentically because of the trauma of repeatedly being told i was in the wrong for feeling the way i felt or doing things the way i did. its still something im trying to unpack now
I remember many times when total strangers, usually women, would come up to me in places like Walmart and adjust my garment sleeves or collar if they were showing even slightly. I didn’t even know these older women and it was very awkward and uncomfortable, especially as I was struggling to raise 5 children, manage my own ADHD and now some stranger would just tell me I was dressing inappropriately. This happened when I lived in Logan, Utah in the 2000s. I saw men’s garment bottoms showing out of the bottom of their shorts and top of their shirts, no one ever corrected those men. What is wrong with the Mormon culture? This is only one of many awkward things I experienced, and now looking back so inappropriate. Now my teenager girls are dealing with these things. I don’t handle that stuff at all like that.
This really speaks to how Mormonism teaches its members that their bodies are not their own. I’m so sorry this happened to you and I’ve had similar experiences. Thank you for sharing ❤
@@BrandNewEyes03 thank you ☺️ for responding to my post, it feels good to know it wasn’t just me.
Although I’ve never been a Mormon, I was part of a fundamentalist evangelical Christian tradition for years. So I usually find something relatable in most episodes. I also have some Masonic ties, so I find your church rituals utterly fascinating. I think the pandemic gave us all the chance to reflect on our spiritual beliefs and see the flaws and harm being done. I am amazed by the articulate strong young women you have interviewed over the last few years. I will continue to tune in.
John’s reaction to her grandpa was adorable
Utterly! I’m looking forward to the grandfather hearing it!
Grandpa Warner isn't thrilled, but Grandpa Walker is right, she is bad-ass. Independence of thought is a HUGE threat to a cult! And an amazing thing for an individual.
John some days act like a kid, hahaha, I love him and of course when his wife is part, such a intelligent and caring woman.
I graduated in 2013 too, cool to listen to someone whose timeline lines up with me a bit!
Thank you Hayley for telling your story. A lot of this resonated with me, as someone who stopped going to church a few years ago. Growing up in the church, we just are taught to believe from the time we were born. What you said about deconstructing the church led you to begin deconstructing Christ hit home. I've had friends ask me to their churches and I've tried to get them to understand that and they just don't get it.
I was Mormon for two years. I can tell you a major reason why never-Mormons watch is because they feel the need to make sure they don’t get n a cult, like what signs to look for. We can see this most clearly through ex Mormon’s stories. My favorite two podcast topics are ex Mormons and ex Scientologists.
I think most people's ego (or maybe just my own ) doesn't allow them to think they could get involved in a cult. But from a more detached perspective I like understanding how the mind control works.
Granted, we all think getting into a cult will never happen to me as a person . I will see it and run. But I think the person who is doing the cult, like Jim Jones, are master manipulators and know how to work the system. He made, initially everything about community and togetherness and it worked. Obviously, later when it became obvious people needed to get out, look what happened the kool-aid episode. There is never a sign out that says - beware this group is a cult. We all need to be aware of our surroundings.
Growing up in a church I would not have considered it a cult. As an adult I think all religions are cultist. I’m glad I’m not part of a religion anymore.
I am never Mormon. Very fascinated about Mormonism. As a Non Orthodox Jew and a person who has have never been a gentile any other place on earth, I can see trauma suffered by many. I think these podcasts are valuable. This has been a learning experience.
Thank you for sharing your comment. If you don't mind, I would like to share with you. I served an LDS mission in Japan and had a wonderful opportunity to exchange teachings with Buddhist Priests in two areas that I became good friends with. They taught me that, Buddhism addresses the issue of suffering head-on and offers various teachings and practices to understand and transcend it. The core teachings of Buddhism revolve around the Four Noble Truths, which provide a framework for understanding suffering and its cessation:
The Truth of Suffering (Dukkha): Buddhism acknowledges that suffering is an inherent part of life. It encompasses not only physical pain but also mental and emotional dissatisfaction and the unsatisfactory nature of existence itself.
The Origin of Suffering (Samudaya): Buddhism teaches that the root cause of suffering is attachment and craving (Tanha). It is the desire for things to be different from how they are, clinging to transient experiences, and the ego's illusion of a separate self.
The Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha): Buddhism holds that the cessation of suffering is possible by eliminating attachment and craving. This state is known as Nirvana or liberation, characterized by freedom from suffering, inner peace, and ultimate enlightenment.
The Path to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga): Buddhism offers the Noble Eightfold Path as a guide to overcome suffering. It consists of ethical conduct (Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood), mental discipline (Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration), and wisdom (Right Understanding, Right Thought).
My friends taught me that, Buddhism encourages individuals to directly confront and investigate suffering through mindful awareness and introspection. Rather than avoiding or denying suffering. They taught me that practitioners are encouraged to develop insight into its nature and causes. This can be done through practices such as mindfulness meditation, contemplation of the impermanence of all phenomena, and developing compassion and loving-kindness towards oneself and others; including some times tough love.
Additionally, Buddhism emphasizes the importance of accepting the reality of suffering and developing a compassionate response to alleviate it. This involves cultivating empathy, practicing generosity, and engaging in acts of service and kindness towards others.
Overall, Buddhism offers a comprehensive approach to understanding and addressing suffering head-on by investigating its root causes, cultivating wisdom and compassion, and following a path that leads to the cessation of suffering.
I was able to share similar knowledge and expeirnces and practices that I learned from my parents who both worked outside the home. They worked as professors at the UofU. They had 9-kids and raised us all with similar values as the single Buddist priests were teaching. I shared with them that I had the best examples in the world. While they weren’t perfect by all means, they always strived for what they believed in, and they along with the teachings of Jesus Christ and my love for knowledge is why I served a mission. I took the approach when I was out there to learn from others which then gave me hundreds of opportunities to teach the pieces they were interested in. My mission president said, “love the Japanese people. Go make friends with them. Learn from them. In turn you will be blessed to share your love of the Gosepl with them as well”. This couldn’t be more true and has been true in my life as a whole. If I hadn't chosen to serve, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make these friends and learn something and share something with them.
i just started listening to her podcast last week and i absolutely love it!! looking forward to this episode :) from a dutch never-mo
THAT’s what I am - a Never-Mo !
Thanks
I'm an English major, Protestant, never mo who somehow became interested in Mormonism and its culture this year, so it was funny you all talked about that at the end of the show. Learning it all is very much like reading a fascinating, odd, yet often familiar story.
Also loved The Things They Carried, but actually in college loved all the Victorian literature, so I'm a little different than you 😂 I hadn't studied Brit Lit in high school and loved it in college. I'm also a mom of young kids and worked part-time for 5 years with little kids until recently and being a mom is my only job right now. It's super tough when as a woman wanting to do all the things and knowing that's not possible, at least for me. You're amazing and you'll figure it out. We women are very giving. Boundaries are hard.
Just fyi, the NT wasn't written hundreds of years after Jesus and the book Zealot was criticized a lot by non-Christian and Christian scholars.
Last thing - before Hayley said she wanted to be a writer I was thinking that she should write. Her quirky humor came out a bit during the show - I think she'd be a tremendous author.
The earliest written parts of the NT were from at least a hundred years after the death of Jesus, and many were written two hundred years after, both long after everyone who knew him was dead. It was preserved in oral culture before someone wrote it down. Reference to Zealot or not, these are facts the majority of biblical scholars agree on.
@@katieramos5868 can you share your source? Scholars say the gospels were written 40-70 years after Jesus' death. The dating seems to be based on the gospels occurring after the destruction of the temple (otherwise they would be prophetic) and Mark occuring first. But if Mark is a speech that referenced Matthew and Luke and Jesus was a prophet they can be dated earlier. Scholars date Paul's letters to 20-30 years from Jesus death and he quotes hymns and creeds established before that. Look into 1 Corinthians 15.
I’ve never been a Mormon but grew up in Lutheran fundamentalism, this podcast has been really amazing to listen to. I’m always surprised to hear the similarities and differences every episode, (and I loved hearing you get excited about her grandfather)
i am a never morman and i just find learning about different religions so fascinating! every guest you have has a great story to tell!❤
Fellow Timpview graduate here, I resonated with so many of your comments. Provo is a strange place.
Hayley is such a good speaker. Very easy to listen to!
I served in the Berlin Mission as well with Zwickau being one of my areas in 2006. Though it wasn’t my first area, I remember having very similar struggles at the beginning of my mission: jet-lagged far too long, trying to be obedient, being scared/depressed when success was scarce.
It was very interesting how many things I could relate to during the interview, specifically about the mission. Not surprising to learn that “the work” hasn’t changed at all. No one wanted to listen to me, either. Though, sisters always seemed to have more success than elders.
When you mentioned that it felt like a game, that is spot on. Being on a mission in Germany became a game where I wasn’t in real life and my objective was to convert people. I couldn’t grasp that they had real lives and real problems that I couldn’t fix with missionary work. I had a very hard time trying to figure out why our finding strategies weren’t working. It was miserable.
I didn’t enjoy trying to do missionary work but I loved being in Germany. I’m sorry for the difficult parts of your mission because I experienced them to a certain extent as well.
As a German, I'd be plenty happy to see Ex missionaries stay like Ex military choice to remain outside of the USA
I was gardening wearing my headset half off and then my Mormon neighbor struck up a conversation with me, normally longer but left in a hurry. They are Utah devout married in the temple Mormans... I wonder if they recognized John's voice? I guess time will tell 😅
I love that
I get asked by Mormons if I listen to Mormon Stories, especially after the billboards were up. I love to say OH YOU BET I DO! Then they change the subject 😊
@@cg8012it would be like coming out of the closet for them. To live their life on their own terms.
No man has any right to criticize or shame a female’s choice of clothing. Plain and simple. What an awful thing to do to young teen. God is weeping over the cult of Mormon. 💔🙏💔
I had a harder time relating to this one because she's so much younger than me and didnt live her adult life in the church, and leave after she had already raised kids to believe it. She has the rest of her life ahead of her to live still. Many of us gave our whole adult (and childhood) lives and our childrens lives to the church. Its just a whole different level. I wish her the best though and am happy for her. It will be interesting to see where she is in 20 years.
I left the church at 21, when I moved out of my parents house. Now I’m 32 and I have 2 kids and really don’t know if I believe in god or not. I find I crazy the fact that I grew up going to the church 2-3 times a week and how my kids don’t even know who God and Jesus are 🤣🙈
Having been an expo for 40 years-fairly isolated from friends and family-your podcasts have been so comforting, validating and mental lifesaver. You may want to explore Tokyo South Mission under Delbert Groberg-that started my exmo journey-
We were made to feel like we hadn't caught the vision yet by Kikuchi and that we needed to emulate Tokyo South's "success" during the Groberg years. Some in our mission tried it and it was a mess for the rest of us to try and clean things up afterwards.
Dude time to let go… People seem to be able to leave but can’t let go.
I am so encouraged that those who have been influenced by the LDS doctrine are beginning to look at the truth. Only truth will withstand the test of time. We can be so fooled by the emotions we experience in the name of religion. Stay true to your conscience.
The stories about the holy ghost being what you now recognize as religious anxiety, is SO identifiable. I am now diagnosed with OCD since my 20s, but left the church at 18. I was OBSESSIVE (literally) with prayer and "promptings". I prayed very specifically for certain things, with the fear that if I didn't, the bad thing would happen. I prayed before every bite of food, before every car ride/drive, beginning the school day, trying something for the first time, literally *anything*. Any time I felt the "holy ghost" (anxiety and panic) I was praying constantly. Mostly mentally, but definitely also out loud.
I was about to look for a comment about this. From a psychological perspective, OCD is the first thing that I would assess for.
🎉 11:20
I’m a member of the church and am very open about people’s experiences - so thank you Hayley for sharing and being willing to do so! I’ve been listening to a few podcasts here and there to understand people’s stories because you can’t just put people in a box to judge how and why they left their faith. For those who have gone through this experience and maybe even John can comment as well, how do people reconcile their relationship with God and Jesus the Christ after losing the perspective that they once had concerning deity? Do most people try to keep that relationship but change the way they view it? Or do most people abandon it altogether? For context, I believe that anyone praying to God is praying to the same God that I pray to but potentially with a different understanding of His nature. So, I would tend to believe this belief is carried on by keeping the relationship, but I could be wrong.
I've left but still believe in God, less sure about Jesus. I've gravitated towards Buddhism. I know a lot of people that have left and I'd say 85% still at least believe in God.
I’m actually still an active member, but non-believing, or PIMO (physically in, mentally out) as I’ve found many call it. Basically, church culture is far to strong and ingrained in the area and family, making it far to disruptive to try and actually leave. My issue is that I’ve simply never had any personal experience that I could identify as a spiritual witness. And believe me, I’ve tried, for decades. I’ve done all the right things (activity, prayer, scriptures, tithing, mission, temple marriage, callings). I’ve stayed worthy (never any alcohol, smoking, drugs) and my wife is literally the only girl I’ve ever kissed, so even chastity rules have been followed pretty well! And I’ve been pretty sincere in asking and basically living like I believe, but still nothing. So recently I’ve had to challenge myself and see what the deal is. I thought I would start with the safe issue and see about why I should believe in god in the first place. Laying out my thoughts and experiences, as well as looking at debates on the existence of a god, I quickly found that I really had no good reason to believe. After that it wasn’t too hard to unravel the poor truth claims of the church and find that they were far more explainable from a man made explanation than a god or faith based reasoning. Ultimately, why shouldn’t I have received some type of confirmation if there really was a god?
In the US, there are basically two trends: one is to join a mainstream Christian church, often in the he evangelical spectrum. See e.g. the Tanners. The second trend is to continue deconstructing not only Mormonism, but also Christianity, and ending up with a secular worldview.
i think it definitely depends on the individual. in my experience with unpacking my spirituality the way ive reconciled my relationship with god is by defining what god means to me and being okay with it not necessarily aligning with the god i was taught of growing up. to me its more about my personal relationship with god and who i feel god is. i do think its interesting to think about my upbringing and how it could and more than likely influences the way i view my spirituality now even as i distance myself from the church as an organization. i still feel a connection to the spiritual side of myself even though i dont align with the organization in many ways.
I left a year ago yet I’ve always believed in God/Creator. I’ve since joined Islam ☪️
I am German and am smiling all the time and many people here find that reallly weird😂. So you are right, to smile on the street with people you don't know isn't common here😂.
That’s how it is in the PNW/Seattle area. Some parts of the USA have very friendly, genuine people…some have the fake friendly…some have the cold & unfriendly.
I’m not sure Germans fit any of these categories. They are blunt & I love that. I think that’s more authentic.
@@aliciamarie9704I live in the south (USA). I'm very friendly but also very blunt 😆
@@dianasimplifies ahh! Then you are my favorite type!
There was no chance of converting Germans to Mormonism.
I wouldn't describe Germans as mean people. It's just, unlike Utah Mormons, they don't go out of their way to be friendly and smiley. Lol
never Mormon here- I just adore your podcast and the guests you bring on. Hearing her talk it’s crazy to me how we can all have such individual, nuanced upbringings yet have similar overarching experiences. Like talking about confusing anxiety for the Holy Ghost, or her feeling conflicted about perfectionism in the pursuit of praise in the midst of being critiqued for when she would exercise her agency (and the entailing shame). I wish we could all talk together in person and give each other a bunch of verbal love / retroactively hug ourselves. She seems like a fantastic lady and I thank her for sharing, and you guys for platforming who you do, how you do. I also really enjoyed the cohost and his insightful questions. Great episode!
I know exactly what she's saying. I felt exactly the same way, I got on that marriage train and didn't know how to get off. Unfortunately, I knew it was the wrong thing, I just didn't know how to stop the train 😔.
Hayley’s thoughts about going home early from her mission not being an option, is how I felt about leaving a temple marriage. I suffered 16 years and my children were affected/damaged because I didn’t think I could leave!!! I used to hope he would get into a bad car accident & die. That’s a very dark place to be. Of course it feels embarrassing to say that out loud, but unless you’ve been under all the pressure & the power of the belief system, & in a terrible situation, you may not understand. My children & I went through so much just to get out of that. He stalked me for 5 years after & bought me a grave too (after I left him). I was lucky to get out alive. I had to discover the truth about the “church” & resign, before I could leave him. That’s how much the “church” had a hold over me.
Oh gosh, I just want to give you the biggest hug!
My mother was in the exact same situation, although she got out of it when my father had a heart attack on a river rafting tour.
Unfortunately, the church still has a hold on her, and I desperately want her to wake up and see the truth about this 200-year scam that's making her miserable!
@@rebeccacall7348why you'll never get me river rafting!! Jkjk
I just want to say I can resonate with Hayley on so much of her story just as a boy instead of a girl. I am also the same age as Hayley and I left the church when I was 19 due to extreme anxiety/pressure to serve a mission. It caused so many problems between my family and I which they do not understand to this day. Thank you for sharing your story Hayley, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.
I’ve recently stumbled upon this podcast due to the Ruby Franke/Jodi Hilderbrandt story and I can’t believe I didn’t know about this podcast until now. I am in complete shock with how much I didn’t realize growing up and how normal I thought so much was because I didn’t know anything otherwise.
Thank you John for your incredible work, it has offered me a completely different perspective and I am in many ways disappointed I didn’t understand all this years ago. Your personal story coupled with your tone and respectful way of speaking on church issues, I really respect what you do. I have been binge watching episodes on UA-cam while I’m not busy with law school.
Loving how John's talking $$$ at the end of the video loud and clear. People, take note!! 😁
I love Hayley's vibe!! She comes across sweet, but is more than ready to have her say. 💕
I did the Church thing. I had a very successful mission. I was the "top producer" during the time I was in the country I served in. I was told that years later when I bumped into my Mission President. I got back, I went to BYU, ,I tried to get married, but local UT families didn't want somebody who wasn't of "good Mormon stock" or a prominent family to marry into theirs. I got my degree, I left, started a very successful career and went out one night to a restaurant near my home, and met my wife. One date and we knew it was the right thing. Not a member, I told my Bishop and he recommended against it. I said sorry love conquers all. Now we have been together for 37 years and all is well. There have been ups and downs. I have still been active in Church now and again, but now it's so tiring to try to ask why some of the members are so political. Why are they haters? Why are they hypocrites? I have some friends who have moved way up in the Church and I know them for decades. They haven't changed but moved up because of becoming extremely wealthy. I can't see any other reason, as they did not live the commandments of the Church. Maybe they suddenly repented but I don't think so. You have cash, you are a major success, you move up the hierarchy. That's how I see things. And a lot of my Church friends have left and are leaving after spending their whole lives in the Church.
Thank you for sharing your heartfelt story and expressing your feelings about your experiences with the Church. It's clear that your journey has been filled with both triumphs and challenges, and I appreciate your openness in discussing them.
It's unfortunate to hear that you faced difficulties when it came to finding acceptance within the local Utah Mormon community when you were looking to get married. It can be disheartening when people prioritize social status or lineage over genuine connections and love. I had just the opposite experience as you being from pioneer stock and ultimately rejected after 3 kids because my ex-wife decided to leave the church of who wasn't of pioneer stock. However, it's inspiring to learn that you found your soulmate and have been happily together for 37 years. Love truly knows no boundaries, and your decision to follow your heart was a testament to the power of love in your life.
Your observations about some members of the Church being political, hateful, or hypocritical are valid concerns and is true in some maybe even many cases. It can be confusing and frustrating to witness such behavior, especially when it seems contradictory to the principles and teachings of the faith. It's essential to remember that individuals within any organization, including religious ones, can have diverse beliefs, opinions, and attitudes. Unfortunately, some people may use their positions or wealth for personal gain rather than living according to the values they profess.
It's understandable that these experiences have left you questioning certain aspects of the Church and its members. It's important to note that not everyone within the Church shares the same views or acts in the same way. While some individuals may disappoint or confuse us, there are also many who strive to live their faith sincerely and make a positive difference in their communities.
If you find the current state of the Church tiring or disheartening, it may be helpful to seek out like-minded individuals or communities within the Church who share your values and concerns. Connecting with those who approach their faith with sincerity, kindness, and humility can provide a sense of support and belonging.
Ultimately, your spiritual journey is deeply personal, and it's important to follow the path that feels right for you. Your commitment to love, despite the obstacles you faced, is a beautiful testament to the power of compassion and understanding. May you continue to find peace and fulfillment in your own way, wherever your path leads you.
@@waynecroft4877was this written by mormon-gpt?
Hi John, Margie (I hope I spelled that correctly! Lol), and co-hosts..I just want to say that I just recently started watching Mormon Stories (the past month or so) and am so impressed and glad for all of you and your guests who have seen the light and left "the church" aka cult. I have always wondered how so many seemingly smart people have been fooled for so many years. I'm a Christian and since young adulthood when I was able to really make adult decisions for myself I recognized Mormonism as being a cult and have been flabbergasted that so many people buy into the crazy antics that Mormonism puts on it's members, and this is before just finding out about the temple craziness! My worst thoughts about this cult were validated since hearing all of the wonderful stories on your podcast. It's very very sad to me and my heart often breaks hearing the hurt and shame that all of you have experienced but the healing and eventual happiness that I have seen is so heart-warming and touching that I continue watching you every day. I do want to say that I'm sad that Christianity hasn't gotten a very good wrap on your show and I have heard some things that aren't necessarily 100% truthful. I'm not a church going person and don't read my Bible hardly ever, nor do I pray very often because I'm at a very dark place in my life, but I do know that Jesus loves me and every single person on this earth no matter where they are in their life or faith and the fact that my and everyone else's salvation is guaranteed if they do what the Bible tells us to do in order to receive salvation, gives me a comfort that I treasure. I do pray that you and everyone else in the world will read a modern translation of the Bible and find the simple truths for themselves so they may find the comfort that this forgiven sinner found. If I may direct you to Tiff Shuttle- worth, on UA-cam, I think he is a good place to start finding simple Bible truths. In the meantime congratulations for finding freedom from the richest cult on the planet ( lol....I don't know this to be a fact, but from what has been disclosed lately I feel confident in assuming this!) Thanks again for your faithful and taxing work! Kelli (ps I'm around your age John and a never Mormon just to give you an idea of my age group)(don't know exactly why I think that's important!?)
Your almost to the point. I’m someone who has completely deconstructed from Christianity and am able to see the parallels of control in all religion. Keep learning about what you believe is the “truth”. Hopefully you get there one day and realize that you in fact control your own “light”.
“I was just used to being in some amount of pain” is like, welcome to being a woman :( it’s so unfortunate. I’m so so sorry you had to go through that.
I served a mission in the Frankfurt Germany Mission (2006-2008). Thank you for sharing your experiences. I agree with your analysis. It is difficult. A lot of Germans, where I was, thought that we were Amish. I am sorry to hear that it caused you mental distress. It is the land of poets and thinkers, and there is nothing about the gospel that truly interests them.
Agreed. I was in the Hamburg mission from 2008-2010 (I left at the same time the mission closed and was split between the Frankfurt and Berlin missions).
Secularism is high in many European countries. There are few baptisms now in those missions.
The Amish are even weirder and thus cooler than the Mormons. BTW, there are Latter Day Saint Amish. That must be ultra crazy.
@@charlesmendeley9823 What do you mean? Do you mean people who were Amish and get baptized in the Mormon Church? The Amish are not weird. They live in an oppressively strict community under a religious theocracy. What is cool about that? Also, in Germany, some people genuinely thought that we were the authentic Amish. Some literally believed that we lived without electricity. They did not realize that we were missionaries of the Mormon Church until we told them. Then that usually started a conversation about Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses because again they did not know what the Mormon Church really was. This was not some great contacting and missionary opportunity because once we would tell an investigator about the First Vision and the Book of Mormon that was usually the last time we ever saw that person.
I just hate that its so easy for people in the church to invalidate these kinds of feelings. When she talked about her anxiety all I could think was "Well they'll just write her off as crazy" and not realize the real issues caused by ideologies in the church or its "culture"
I love and appreciate this podcast. I was raised in organized/fundamentalist religion and relate to many of the stories shared. I learned valuable insights.
She mentioned the sugar addict in the AA meeting with her dad and it was discounted by everyone. I may have misunderstood the response. Perhaps the response was more in line w mormon practices/responses and not so much towards the actual addiction.
With the knowledge that I may have misunderstood the responses, I want to share sugar addiction is real. I have sugar addiction (sugar free for over a yr now) and it negatively impacted my life in many ways. Further, there are studies that show, for some(just as w drugs), sugar stimulates the same parts of the brain as drugs/alcohol. Similiar to drugs/alcohol, sugar addiction also has adverse affects, sometimes deadly, on not only one's health but also can negatively impact family dynamics and other relationships. The behaviors of a sugar addict very much so align with that of any other addict, so much so that there are sugar/food addiction groups and rehabs that follow the same big book (12steps).
As a retired policewomen in the UK I have always had an issue where the Bishop interviews underage teens, particularly when it is a chastity/sexual matter. I find this totally inappropriate behaviour. I I don’t buy into the Bishop representing God thinking. In law when interviewing an underage teen a second person must be present. This is a protection for both the interviewer and the interviewee.
Some Bishops make young women feel dirty or less of a person - appalling to do this to someone at a vulnerable age.
I grew up Jehovah’s Witness. It’s so scary how similar all of this is. You could literally pull out the Mormon "buzz words" and put Jehovah’s Witness "buzz words" in and they're sooo creepily similar. I they have roots that are the same, but even evolving so similar is nuts.
It's interesting to learn about missions because in a town where I live in Croatia, there would be posters inviting people to practise English with native American speakers, which I was very wary of, but when I see Mormons in pairs, they are just very polite, well dressed kids. But those English lessons always sounded like a ruse.
Yeah, that's how they get in contact with people in Italy as well. I reall? don't like all this missionary stuff and am sorry for their "victims".
Never Mormon listener/watcher from Germany (living in Zwickau, the small town in eastern Germany where Hayley served part of her mission) here.
I found this channel several years ago as I was gathering information about the LDS. The more I learned, the whole thing seemed quite odd to me - how can grown, intelligent people believe in such fairytales?
Anyhow, I kept watching these stories, especially the ones with missionaries involved as I happened to get to know two of them while dealing with genealogy. (The ward here in Zwickau has or used to have a kind of archive with microfilms from different churches in my area). I think this must have been around 2017, 2018. They were super sweet, supported me in my strive to find my ancestors and actually never tried to proselytize me, share the gospel or teach me anything. We briefly talked about religion and faith in general and I think I made it clear from the beginning that never in my wildest dreams I would ever join this "club" as I consider myself an atheist.
They invited me to some of the gatherings of their ward here in Zwickau (like a women's circle) and I actually attended one of them. Nice afternoon, everyone was welcoming but I never went back. They contacted me using WhatsApp but were never intrusive and stopped writing at all when I didn't answer anymore.
Fun fact - the building in Zwickau where the missionaries (or at least some of the female missionaries) live/used to live is right across the street from one of my towns most famous ice cream parlors. So it's relatable to find some comfort there when times were hard for Hayley.
Nice to hear even females feel that way on a mission. I remember sitting in my first area in Brazil thinking FML… I’m stuck in this for two years. Going home isn’t an option. I have PTSD and nightmares of having to go back out again… it’s been almost 20 years since I served, And 14 years inactive.
so sad. I was a member for 9 years. Was tired of guilt and judgement.
I think I've figured out why they keep the missionaries so locked down. If they actually interacted with the cultures in a free way there would probably be a better chance of them being converted out of Mormonism than them converting people to mormonism.
@@jeffk464 it’s solely about output. If you were able to do literally anything other than missionary work, we’d have done it. They only get you for 2 years, so gotta juice every minute to get those baptisms. I remember mission gossip going around that when my mission president first got there he lead by “the spirit” letting missionaries do their thing. When baptism numbers dipped, he got destroyed by the area authority and shamed. He was only about numbers after that. Was a big salesman role after that. How to get people to listen, then baptized. I remember even listening to trainings on how to challenge investigators go get baptized in the first discussion. What a sales pitch
@jeffk464 yup....I think it was stated on Mormon Stories that a leader that left the church acknowledged that they are area in most areas the mission is more about it reinforcing being a TBM for the missionary rather than actually converting people
You lost me at “I had no idea women also develop trauma from traumatic events.” Ofc it also negatively impacts women.
So interesting to hear you discuss your never Mormon listeners. For me it started with an ex-fundamentalist evangelical person’s UA-cam channel. Then Leah Rimini did that series on Scientology. I found Mormon Stories when you were interviewing people from a number of different high demand religions. My interest is in trying to get an understanding of why people would embrace authoritarianism (especially in the form of Christian nationalism) so wholeheartedly. Then I found that the stories were giving me hope that even if people have been indoctrinated since birth they can still want to get out. I love hearing how aware they have become about privilege. All of this shows me that the human heart leans towards freedom and authenticity no matter how much groups will use fear to quell those desires.
I am a rebel Mormon. I converted at age 50 and have ALWAYS had the attitude that I will wear whatever I please. And NO youth should be alone in a closed room with a bishop!!
In most communities a middle aged man grilling a teenage girl on her sexuality and what she's wearing would be arrested.
Another person with vaginismus 💞 always appreciate people speaking about that! 👏🏼 thank you
John's heart to help her at the end is amazing!! Thank you, John, for all you do.
What a great interview! Thoroughly enjoyed Hailey’s entire story. I loved hearing about both of your perspectives on never-Mormons as one over here 🙋🏼♀️ who has been interested in Mormon culture and history for probably 10 years now 😱 It blew my mind when I discovered mormons aren’t FLDS- or Amish-looking and pass as “normal Americans”. I’d been to salt lake as a teen and thought “wow I didn’t even see one Mormon there!” 😂 So many of my family and friends have also had the same realization and we talk about it casually and on the reg.
Also the book of Isaiah is soo important to the human experience. ❤ they are my favorite books in the bible, outside the Gospel 😊
I'm only 10 minuets in and just realized this is a 4 hour episode! I love listening to these at work & this one will get me all the way through my morning :)
What a highly intelligent, energetic and self aware young woman. Her response to John when he brought up how traumatic speaking as an ex-mormon is, was mature. Let the younger generation have their own response, traumatic or joyful. They have plenty of time to experience the negatives, and in fact, Hayley shows she is very aware of the negatives, and gives much thought all the time about how to respond. Sometimes John, it seems like your personal therapeutic needs leak out and are put on your guests - understandable, but be careful.
I fully agree. I made a similar comment. Trauma leaking a lot. Take care of yourself
I feel like often times he tries to speak for everyone though. It is scary to speak up as a non Mormon or ex Mormon. It’s been hard navigating my own life knowing my in laws think that I am sewing seeds of doubt, or speaking for satan. That I’ll never be truly happy and they should never take council from me. The church has done a really good job at taking the power from anyone who wants to speak up.
I also feel like the church culture has changed a lot in the last 20 years. The younger generation has access to the internet and podcasts. You’re able to kind of reach a larger audience and hide behind a screen. I’m happy they are able to do so, but in the past it was oh you just have to say it to peoples face. And that’s much harder to do.
So I think it’s less trauma leaking, but more the entire dynamic of speaking up as a non member has changed.
@@ristopherobbins yes, it's very scary. As a young mother, I chose to leave my husband and his family, who were not Mormon, but were very toxic for me and my children. I instinctively knew I would have to go "non- contact" with every in-law family member to protect myself. Unfortunately they took it out on our three young children, who they still saw, and who were punished emotionally and mentally for my "transgressions." I was unable to protect them.
@@argosz8046 hopefully you were able to educate them at the very least. Give them the tools and history. That’s so messed up. I’m so sorry you went through that.
@@ristopherobbins Thank you. I turn 68 yo tomorrow, and my eldest daughter turns 50 yo in December. Two weeks ago was the first time she allowed me the opportunity to voice my regret that I couldn't protect her when she was a child. She still seeks out their toxic relationships, despite their cruelty she still wants their approval, and still sees any comment from me as critical. I believe bitterness is a wasted emotion left over from anger, but it makes me very sad. There is a glimmer of hope for some small amount of healing between us as I am quite unwell.
I served a mission in the Netherlands between 91-93 and probably had a very similar experience as Hayley’s in Germany. Needless to say, I left the church a year after I came home.
Girlscamp podcast listener here, love this!
Her feelings of her Dads addiction were deeply impactful to me. Thank you. Signed, a never Mormon but with extended Mormon family
What comes to my mind with these bishops humiliating sexual transgressions is that they haven’t learned from the Savior. His compelling discussion with the woman at the well. His compassion for the woman caught in the very act of adultery. These leaders need to understand the teachings of Jesus Christ. Whatever there calling. Bishop Prophets etc.
Steve Walker, Eugene England, and Richard Cracroft were huge influences in my BYU Education. So fun to hear them mentioned. ❤️
Mission at 1:43. Some part of Germany is part of something called the Bavarian Mission. This comprises German speaking parts of the countries of Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and France. Missionaries have little success often baptizing no people in the two year mission period. But they do learn several dialects of German.
I think the success is equally bad in all three German missions. They can barely replace the people leaving. They shut down the Facebook English class due to lack of attendance, and their portal chat is not staffed, so you basically get no response. 😂
"leaning 3 different German accents" is quite generous for the low level of language comprehension expected upon arrival and with so repetitive tasks/limited engagement
Best luck to anyone trying
Patriarchal blessings at 1:30:00. The blessing is based usually on a short interview with the person. That is why they are short. I was told mine in very long compared to other blessings. Most of what's in there came true. But these were because I worked toward those goals and followed through. I think some patriarchs do a better job with the whole process than others do.
Married in five months at 1:59:27. I knew someone who met his wife at the temple. She was a RM and temple worker. They were engaged in six weeks and married/sealed six weeks after that. They have been married for 8 years and have three kids.
We had a family member that was told, on their mission, that they weren't there to bring people to Christ. They were told they were only there to baptize. They were also told non members couldn't know Christ until they were baptized. Other missionaries told them that every missionary had depression and they had to just get over it. No support or help was provided.
So just so you know.
At one point where you are questioning what happens if.
On my mission in Uganda the following happened.
UNESCO heritage site in my area burned down. - the outcome of which was while we were having district meeting the next day we had to lock the compound gates as protestors with guns were parading down the street. We called assistants and they had no clue, were president is travelling ect. End of story we got 3 days waiting in our apartment to allow the situation to calm down.
We had terrorist action at a bunch of locations in town - bombs, we ended up spending another 2-3 days in residence.
So unless the terrorist action was a start of war, you would have just been sent to your room to wait for it to be safe.
That is awful!
Oh man, some parts about confessing to the bishop are so relatable to me as a Catholic. In Catholic confession, lying about or even deciding not to confess a sin you knew you committed is actually another sin.
I am also Catholic (cradle Catholic) and worked in the church for 15 years in youth ministry. Parts of this were so triggering to me especially revolving around purity culture and confessing my "sins" to someone else.
@@hopejeffcoat1819 Yes! I am also a cradle Catholic and grew up in very conservative, fundamentalist circles. I am still unpacking some purity culture myths many years later!
I can relate to her infertility journey, it’s sooo much like mine and her religious issues with it. I felt the same way
Yepp shamed for my shirt choice the first time i visited my now ex-husband's church... i was 19 in bible college, and the worship leader yelled at me for trying to distract her husband.... the devastation i felt is beyond words.
Thank you so much for sharing your story! So much of your story resonated with me.
I reluctantly allowed myself to be Baptized and Confirmed after over TWO Years of Love Bombing and 6 sets of Missionaries sent to my door various Mormons repeatedly asking me "how they could help"? And telling me they believed "Heavenly Father had sent me"iafter which I submitted my documents pertaining to a legal situation I had been struggling with. The Church Completely Iced me Out and Turned it's Back on me. I was Never told why or even given a face to face interview. Ouch ! Not Churchly and Definitely Not Godly !
I'm a non-mormon, married to an ex-mormon... living in Utah--got married and had my kid.
In hopes to learn about the meanings behind my unexplained verbage like holy ghost, "obedience", why ppl get emotional during certain times -blah blah via--I basically had mormon missionaries come to my door--*new mom, feel alone, etc* --learning through this podcast and zelph on the shelf has taught me WAY more...about mormonsim of course--in a much more honest & in depth way! I feel a different level of security in myself, around my -very active in laws and around my neighbors --i wish i had found MS and ZOTS when I first moved here...bc being the major culture here --i DID feel the odd pressure to adapt or try to not offend them -- which backfired--for years-- causing anxiety etc..
My goal one day is to simply have a drink -coffee or alchoholic drink--at a restaurant with my in laws. Sounds so simple but would be monumental.🎉
Kurt Vonnegut one of her favorite authors - nice. I plowed through all of his books when I was in high school and college.
❤️ this! 😂
@@cinnamondan4984not "Cat Vonnegut"? 😅 Or Kurt Vonnecat?
Fascinating. I was a Timpview Thunderchicken too. I wonder if I knew any of these rebels back then. It's true, everybody's parents were BYU professors to some extent. Great dive into the history.
I grew up in a family who was religious but didn’t go to church much. I also had to go through similar sense of I have to be “good” to have a good life. It took me a long process what is a healthy relationship with my creator. It is ongoing. So much nonsense.
Hi John! I'm trying to see if you or John Larson would please do an episode about the excommunication of "Annalee Skarin". She wrote an amazing book called "Ye Are Gods" and they excommunicated her for it! Luckily for all of us she continued to write, and has written LOTS of amazing books since then FULL of TRUTH! Nobody has ever talked about her, and that is why I'm requesting. It will blow your mind if you look into it! 😉
That’s perfect: ‘the bubble is real.’
I love children, but I am so glad I am not a parent right now, with college, acting & bucket list goals, I'm very greatful for the freedom I have
Love this young woman’s story 😊💕
On an unrelated note, it seems a lot of Mormons pronounce g’s as hard. Sing isn’t sing it’s sinG. Is this a cultural thing or region specific? Idk, it’s something that stands out to me and I was just curious
I've noticed that too, watching videos abt the lds fundamentalists in Utah & arizona
Wow I relate so much to your story, we went through a lot of very similar experiences. You’re just three ish years older than me, if we were the same age we probably would have been in the English program together too!
Often a story makes national news over some school in Utah not letting girls in prom cause their dresses are not garment covering, though they don’t wear garments yet in high school.
Hannah did interview on Growing up in Polygamy
Wow, I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, but my ears perked up at the AA references. I was in a relationship, then married to an alcoholic. He went to AA and I was in Alanon. The marriage lasted 15 years, I ended it because of domestic abuse. But what really caught my ear was the off hand comment about sugar addiction. Hey y’all, it is REAL. I have struggled with sugar addiction since my early teenage years. I’m not really onboard with calling it a disease, but it is very real. (Ok, now I’ll shut up and watch the rest of the podcast!)
Hayley is just great at these pithy quips: “The Church was true; the sky was blue,” “I didn’t even think to think about it.”
I grew up in the heart of LDS land. Central Utah. Went to Korea. One day I met an old Buddhist Monk who listened to all my teachings and I listened to his. At the end, I had a lot of questions. I met with him once a week for several months. This man had nothing but an old shack, a hot plate and he cooked my homemade noodles every time. When I cam home, I had so so many questions and read hundreds of books. I became an atheist by the time I was 25. I have no ill will towards the LDS. My oldest son went to Hungary and he became an atheist by the time he was 28. but he keeps it quiet. My second son (both are physicians) is married to a super mormon wife who drags him to church and he basically plays the role. But I know he's not happy, just like I was.
I am a never Morman but find these podcasts fascinating ❤ Thank You team for doing what you do. I find myself wondering if there will be churches in a 100 yrs, especially if we meet beings from other planets.
I wish Haley had spoken more in depth about her reasons for decontructing gender roles in her marriage. I understand that they want to change how they navigate who does what. What I don't understand from her responses is why that is necessary. What isn't working in their following the traditional gender roles they were taught? I am not suggesting there are not problems with rigid adherence to traditional gender roles, but I did not hear what the central motivation is for changing how they navigate the daily tasks that she and her husband have to perform. What's not working in what they are doing and is a complete decontruction and role reversal (?) necessary to succeed in their marriage?
I waa raised in a Roman Catholic home where traditional gender roles was the rule but not rigidly so. I am still a Christian who adheres to traditional gender roles but with flexibility. As a never Mormom, perhaps I don't understand the rigidity of Mormon doctrine on marriage and family life.
Anyway, I'm trying to understand since I've never seen mormonism lived out up close. I was raised with some messed up practices by failure of my parents to speak more than superficially about the christian faith and what it means. The only day to day practice of faith was saying grace before we ate. Although we went to mass every Sunday, we never discussed what was preached or taught. My parents did teach us the 10 commanments and we were severly punished for breaking them, but faith wasnt a positive value as much as it was a "thou shalt not . . . " proclamation of rules that got you in trouble if you broke them. And unfortunately, that had almost everything to do with my parents and not with Jesus and the gospel.
It’s on her TikTok
She clearly wants to work outside the home and not be in the traditional gender roles
Your experience with the bishop regarding wearing a bikini has me fuming! As a father of 3 daughters it angers me that the bishop wouldn’t talk to your parents and make it a matter for your parents to address. How dare he pull you into his office and humiliate you like that. He was way inappropriate. 😡
Speaking as a non Mormon, I watch, because there has always been a secret about the practices for so many years. I have always thought at any religion with secrets as a cult.
Never a Mormon, here.
Really interesting show. Ty.
I’ll check out the podcast.
Speaking of protecting abusers, didn’t AZ’s Supreme Court just legally relieved the “Church” & its affiliates, from mandated reporting laws. Insane.
They are now legally (and financially) exempt from mandated SA reporting requirements.
At 1:55:20. Many missionaries feel this way. They are told to use old techniques from the 80s and 90s and use them today in 2023. Covid forced some of those tactics to go online instead in 2020-2022. But they are back to live in person teaching. The success rates in the 80s and 90s were much higher in Canada. We had 75 convert baptisms in 1999 and 64 in 2000 in my branch. We also had three companionships in the ward (6 elders). Members gave a lot of referrals which they no longer do. This eventually led to ward status. Those old techniques including member exchanges worked back then. We also had some success reactivating inactive members from less than a two year period of inactivity. That same ward today baptizes less than 10 people a year. People are not interested in the LDS church (or any other church) anymore.
Quick marriages at 2:01:42. It seems crazy to the outside world to meet and marry in five months. But for decades missionaries have been told by mission presidents and stake presidents to marry as quickly as possible. The period traditionally has been within one year of returning home. And ideally both the husband and wife are expected to be virgins on their wedding night and have a temple sealing.
About the Bible though (NOT to be confused with the book of mormon):
"The four canonical gospels-Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John-were all composed within the Roman Empire between 70 and 110 CE (± five to ten years) as biographies of Jesus of Nazareth, written about a generation after the crucifixion of Jesus (ca. 30 CE)"
-Source: Columbia University of New York website (and many more reputable sources and historians say the same: the Bible is more historically accurate than the great majority of ancient litterature...it has not been falcified with time and it WAS NOT written hundreds of years later.
God forbid we fight back against religious preaching! You go girl!! Sing it!