I think it all clicked for me at the fishemen's society quest. How clear it all was when I realized one of the longest puzzles in the whole game which span a characters from all over the game is a puzzle about crafting an engaging story, with said characters explaining to you that just telling a story isn't enough, but how you craft it. I also noticed how the story itself was an event from Tales, which Ron gave creative input to. Fitting for a puzzle about telling a story, hearing feedback, and adapting It for the people's enjoyment. I have always struggled with Monkey Island. I love the franchise and has ever since I was a young lad. the first one I played was funny enough MI2 on a pirated (heh) copy on my dad's ol computer, with the first played soon after and brought legitimately after seeing it at a store. As such, growing up and understanding the implications of the franchise always divided my brain: One part of me admires what ron tried to do and say while the other still felt hurt about the idea the ending making it feel like there was no worth on the characters. I feel this game does what rarely any game of it kind does and what, when you think about it, storytelling is all about: COMPROMISE The ending, the talk with mini guybrush and Elaine at the end all add to what makes the ending so great: It allows ANYONE to craft their own canon and legitalizes any future MI game to still work in either narrative. Are any future instalments just more stories Guybrush the theme park flooring inspector is telling to his family? Yes. Are they new events in the wacky magical piraty world Guybrush lives in, with the theme park is just another of Stan's schemes using Guybrush's adventures as a way to make profit? ALSO Yes. It can be molded in any way you want and I feel that's a beautiful thing. Monkey Island is about Stories, and the ways we interact with them be them real or fantasy
Great comment. That last paragraph really feels like the key, storytelling is and always has been in our own hands, and no game has epitomized that more from the very first sequel than Monkey Island
Great take. While reading it, I realized I have fewer problems with the "it's a kid's fantasy" storyline than I thought I had. Because, when I was a kid, I built these Lego cities with loads of characters. And every friend had their own character and over the months we'd have great adventures. Those were all made up and the characters weren't real. But that doesn't matter. That meant something to us and to me. I still remember some of them. It was just playing on the one hand, but on the other hand it was great and meaningful. The same can be said for MI2. While the "it isn't real" narrative may be pityful for all those pirates, it's kind of heartwarming to think about this kid that had unstrained, almost naive, but great meaningful fun.
Oh hey, it's me at 35:44 for a split second. I stand by what I said, and I genuinely hope to see more adventures of Guybrush Threepwood in the future. Return is exactly what we needed, even if we refuse to accept it.
I don’t know why people were so hung up about the ending not revealing what the secret was. I mean, it’s pretty obvious what it is when you think about it. It’s the three-headed monkey. Duh.
The fact this video only has a few thousand likes is absurd. B-mask is genuinely one of the best creative people on this website, and he deserves way more recognition.
I just watched a 44 minute video on a subject I know nothing about and care even less about and throughly enjoyed it. Not only do I enjoy your videos on subjects I care about like Frasier and the Fantastic Four but even subjects I don't care about, and hate when I have to hit the pause button because something else is demanding my attention. And I'm someone that has trouble focusing on videos that are 20 minutes long.
I agree with you a lot. I enjoyed Return and I'm very happy it got made. Maybe the ending was a little disappointing in terms of not paying out the in-story stuff yet again, but I also really liked the meta-commentary of it all while viewing the game in a meta sense, and you really do get so many clues throughout the game not to take it at face value. I guess before I played it, I had been hoping for another game that would stick to in-universe and take itself seriously, but after playing Thimbleweed Park, and now this, I get it. This is Ron Gilbert and this is what he does. He's not a corporation trying to make something blandly appealing to the widest audience possible, he's part of a creative team consisting of human beings with creative vision and preferences. They have every right to make this game they way they wanted to make it, as a commentary on the journey of the whole game series, and they ended up making a nostalgic and touching experience that celebrates the act of telling stories and indulging in playful fantasy, constantly recalling to me why I've loved this series since I was a kid playing Secret of Monkey of Island on my dad's Amiga.
I really do wonder about the "Ron sucks at writing endings" people. Do they think he was just like writing the story linearly, got to writing an ending and thought "ok I know I've been building all these threads up but I'm going to throw them all away now" like did we play the same game? The Monkey Island I played was an extremely contrived set of fun, entertaining set pieces with interactivity but always the unbreaking knowledge that everything about what you're experiencing was meticulously planned. They're not immersive narrative experiences, they are, by design, like theme park rides! It's a commentary on and a response to the genre itself and the ending of MI2 was a way to bring that into stark relief. It didn't make the games feel hollow, it's what made them interesting and memorable. What actually always felt really fucking hollow and meaningless to me was the wedding ending of Curse. That locked that game in as just a series of meaningless fun set pieces with absolutely nothing to say, and the set pieces were fun but that's not something that stays with you and encourages you to think deeply about what you've just experienced, look at things differently on replay etc the way the first two games did.
Sometimes art expression is going to rub people the wrong way not because of anything intentionally offensive, but just from the creative functional choices made. This game’s response was an example of this and its message was also about that.
I think the _best_ thing about Return was the ending, specifically the last moments. Guybrush, sitting on the bench, appreciating a simple, pure moment. I've grown up playing Monkey Island, like most of us have. Secret was actually my first game (not my first Monkey Island game, my _first_ game). I've not just grown up playing Monkey Island, I've grown up _since_ playing it. I'm 36 now, and that little moment, when Guybrush sits on the park bench, I _never_ would have appreciated that as a kid, not even in my 20s, but in my 30s, that one little moment of peace was the perfect reward for playing the game. He's not racing off to the next adventure, immediately, just taking in that moment. The whole game is very much a "no man can step in the same river twice" kind of story. The start, explicitly everything having changed over the years, the familiar with unfamiliar elements, and the ending, turning out all the lights and leaving the park, showing you see the past differently now to how you saw it in the moment. I think the people who hate the ending are mostly people who haven't yet had this feeling in their own lives, or who might have, and _strongly_ rejected it when they felt it. I don't want to talk down to them and say they don't understand, or they need to grow up, I just want to say to them that maybe they should revisit the game in a few years.
Hi, member of the non-vocal majority here. I wish more people experienced Return To Monkey Island on it's own terms. When I look at the initial hatred at the game's art-style, and the hatred towards it's ending, I can't help but feel these are opinions stemming from people having set-in-stone expectations that were not being met. I admit, when I first played Return To Monkey Island and I got the T-Shirt, I had a chuckle but ultimately I felt let down. There was a period of time before the game was over where I just felt nothing. Then came the scene afterward where adult Guybrush had the option to say that the secret isn't definitive, it changes with time and with who is telling the story. That line - plus the bonus Ron & Dave letter at the end of the scrapbook - got me to rethink my time with Return. I had fun with Return... I engaged with it's puzzles, I laughed lots, I got giddy with excitement when I saw old faces return, and I eventually realised... the destination may not have been great, but the journey REALLY was great. That realisation just devastated me... I was touched soo deeply that I genuinely sobbed - happily - over Return's ending (and I look back on it fondly), because it didn't matter... all that mattered was being able to spend more time in this wonderful fictional universe, engaging with it's world and it's characters, just one more time.
You know, I think this game's meaning hit home a little late but as someone who wants to tell stories, the ending note spoke more to me than pretty much anything else I've ever seen in a game. That for me was the real secret. But that said, I burst out laughing wholeheartedly that the only thing in that chest was a shirt. Also, I was a bit like "What the f***, Guybrush?" becasue of what he did in the pursuit of the secret. It's also kept me excited to tell my own stories, in my own ways. PS: I think I haven't ever quoted a film scene as consistently as that fish people bit in PotC 3.
Great video, I guess a lot of us who appreciated Return had a similar experience to the one you describe, loving the game as a kid, having a hard time letting go because of how much it touched us and influenced our personalities and lives. Return doesn't say "games are meaningless, grow up", it says "The meaning of games (and fiction in general) is what YOU take away." In my ending of choice, while the Monkey Island world is not real, Elaine and his kid ARE. They are the most important people in his life, he shares his hobby with them and they love him and share some of the excitement, despite not being into it AS much. And it seems that Guybrush internalized throughout Return, that this is fine. The Monkey Island games are not real and can't possibly be. But the people who made them, played them, discussed them endlessly and found each other through them, ARE.
I noticed that you included a clip from Toonstruck (1996). That game feels more relevant now than ever with the current state the animation industry is in. 🙂
Now... I'm sort of a different mind about this. I do, in fact, love Ron Gilbert's versions of Monkey Island... but I don't disagree with Yahtzee. The ending is HILARIOUS to me. And I don't even discount Gilbert's message here--I understood EXACTLY what he was saying the entire way there. Of COURSE the MEANING of the ending is about how unsatisfying a specific answer would be. Of COURSE his vision for the games was about the facade of piracy, its literal theme park re-interpretation, rather than anything vaguely resembling reality. But the presentation is giving the audience the ending of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. No matter how many times you say "We can't possibly come up with a satisfying conclusion to this" it does not make up for the lack of a satisfying conclusion. It is an appropriate THEMATIC end to the story, but not to the plot or the characters. So you can either take that in humor, the end of a farcical anti-plot where the lack of conclusion is a prank played on the audience and therefore the entire joke (which I do) or you can feel blue-balled by the lack of a conclusion, which a lot of other people do. I get it. The thematic throughline that gave vision to the work is important. But if it WASN'T meant as a screw-you to the audience, then that belies a misunderstanding of story presentation--which I feel like a lot of avant garde art misunderstands as well. Stories are not their theme. They're an experience. And the experience that Ron Gilbert has crafted is to blue-ball the audience. *Which is funny.* And probably infuriating.
People keep saying there was no conclusion to the character arcs or that there were dangling threads- but the arc for everyone is the discovery of the secret. Everyone who chases it becomes inanimate but Guybrush gains control of his narrative. Don't know what bizarre intrigues people have told themselves were set up outside that because the entire thing pays it off perfectly, and I left incredibly damn satisfied.
Yeah, was also satisfied with the story and thematic wrapup. I didn't need another LeChuck boss fight, but I admit I would've loved another surrealist crescendo of anachronistic clues as we breach the reality chrysalis ala MI2. But the tonal smash cut as you enter the Melee Island alley is also very effective and probably a better fit for this story.
I really, *really* hate that take Yahtzee had over the ending (the whole "not caring" wording hitting a bit of a raw nerve with me), but I heavily respect the decision to at least see where he was coming from even if you disagreed too. The effort to bring up previous context is commendable.
Personally even when I got to the end I was telling my friends "It is a good game that has An Ending." I got what it was going for but I just wasn't into it, was never that deep into adventure games or Monkey Island admittedly. I never joined any of the hate mobs on the game and I always thought that was the worst of fandom as a force, that overpossesiveness for lack of a better term. But even when I quietly preordered and played it for myself I was underwhelmed by the conclusion made by the metanarrative. But your retrospective and framing of it does make me feel more affectionately whelmed by the ending. May as well bring some cursed, only somewhat-related topics up too. The feelings I had while playing Return and the way you put a lot of what I felt into words made it feel clear to me. Return to Monkey Island achieved what Homestuck''s Epilogues had tried to pull off (in its much bleaker manner), and without a genuine undercurrent of worry that the writers might honestly not like the series or the people still engaging with it. Especially with the "Canon belongs to YOU" angle. If some Monkey Island fans felt that a nice little game like Return was mean or calling them out with THAT ending, with the series being what it was, they might genuinely have a stroke from what a hypothetical "combative" author could do. The fact Return garnered a very similar form of negative response from a contingent of fans, up to and including rejection of the meta-narrative from the original work out of frustration, is really interesting to me. Even when the story does offer sticking with things being exactly as they appear as an option, people got mad. Do modern fandoms in general just end up having this kind of reaction to being told the specifics of what is or isn't "canon" in a long story does not really matter, and the work is whatever you want/need of it? I wonder if Homestuck Beyond Canon will end up in a similar place to Return to Monkey Island, both in terms the story feel and negative fan reaction, now that it's back to being updated and sticking with the myriad of Events that came before. Because as I keep up with the updates and reflect on a lot of my still-negative feelings for many of those Events, and more positive thoughts on how the team is progressing them, I always did kind of like the overall meta message. Especially so now with Andrew Hussie staying more in the background, giving commercial licenses to big HS fan projects like Vast Error so they can make more of a living from their work. That makes it feel like the door is open not just in fan imagination, but in real life with real progress being made to open it up a bit. But I dunno I'm rambling now.
I don't have any horse in the race for Homestuck, or Monkey Island. I'm not really familiar with them(besides watching B-Mask's videos), and don't know how I would feel about the different games and reveals, so don't take this as a commentary about either. But in a general sense: Some people just can't stand in-your face meta elements. The context matters, obviously. Personally I never minded a bit of fun with Fission Mailed, tutorial prompts talking about buttons or game mechanics, or Psycho Mantis reading your memory card in the Metal Gear Solid series. But on the other hand, I had zero patience for the in-game excuses in MGS2 for repeating elements, and in my opinion, doing them way worse than in MGS1. The actual theme of the game, the message, is quite positive. But what I _wanted_ was an exciting and funny spy story full of engaging characters which used the familiar framework I liked but took it to somewhere new. What I didn't want was some meta, knowing continuation that focused a lot on the player and didn't provide a meaningful change to the setting or resolve its plotline, and failed to have characters that at all endeared themselves to me. That feeling might be familiar to some Monkey Island or Homestuck fans. Kojima made Metal Gear Solid 3 afterwards, so there's no hard feelings from me, that's exactly the game I wanted. But my point is, for some players it doesn't matter at all what sort of point you're making by going meta, 'cause you already lost them by going in that direction to start with. What I wanted wasn't for the story of MGS2 for example to provide a more flattering portrait of the player. What I wanted was for the story to in no way acknowledge that I, or some larger "fandom" I guess I'm a part of, even exist to start with. It's not something I think is interesting or fun as anything more than a little joke. Even if what the message is saying is entirely validating, like, "whatever you think is best is what's right", it's frustrating to people with this mindset, 'cause what I think is best is _not_ doing this meta stuff. To be clear, this doesn't mean I inherently reject the message being presented(it depends, obviously), or that I don't get them(though admittedly, this also depends). I just think a meta way of presenting those ideas is annoying. For example, I already know that whatever piece of fiction is a piece of fiction, and can be engaging and worthwhile even though it is not real. If the characters in a game interrupt the story tell me that, I'd sit there thinking, yeah? So what? That's obvious, isn't it? Can we get on with the piece of fiction I was engaged with again? To me, pointing out the artificiality or stepping outside the story in that way to tell me something usually feels tedious, especially when it's something super obvious you're laying out. I don't think it's too hard to grapple with, I think it's boring, and any additional points the dev wants to make isn't coming across in a favorable light. Even though the writer is talking more directly to me, it makes me actively disinterested in what they have to say. I can only speak for myself, and I've never sent any hate to Kojima or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if other people dislike this sort of stuff for similar reasons. The fact that it's meta at all is way more damning than anything being said.
@@Kriss_ch. I will say I think MGS2 is kind of a masterpiece. If we always gave in to what players wanted I don't think we'd have half of the most interesting games out there- or that I would ask questions of myself and where I stand as a human being outside of the game itself, which is an inherently powerful thing to achieve. People who complain ironically have more than their share of what they prefer to fall back on- so I will always argue the case for the opposite with those who feel the opposite given the chance.
@@BMaskThat's fair. Even if I get frustrated sometimes and can't quite change my own perspective on those things, I can at least appreciate that for other people they get meaning like that out of it. And I think the way you ask yourself those questions and the meaning you take from it, is at least part of what keeps me coming back to watch your videos. If I was making an MGS2 video, it'd just be a takedown of parts that annoyed me. But if it was you, you would really take those ideas they presented and run with them to the conclusion you came to, and it would be much more interesting as a result. In that roundabout way, I'm also getting enjoyment out of MGS2 through the medium of others. To bring it back to this video, Yahtzee's review is fun and all(and I agree he's got plenty of good points), but I definitely get the sense you're the one seeing the bigger picture, and this video will stick with me a lot longer than his did.
While I still haven’t played Return to Monkey Island, watching this video makes me want to go and play through, not just return, but the whole Monkey Island franchise. Well done B-Mask.
When my friend got the first Monkey Island game on his Commodore Amiga, we couldn't get enough of it. The jokes were hilarious, the puzzles often left you wanting to shout out "NOW YOU'RE JUST TAKING THE PISS". But none of that mattered, its cute animation and seriously addictive story made it our favourite game. (After the 89 Batman anyway.)
Wonderful video! Something entirely not important to but inaccurate is that you would not have smelled chlorine on pirates at disney, be because Disney uses Bromine instead of chlorine!
B-Mask, have you played The Cave? This game is another piece of the Ron's Monkey puzzle. There are 9 characters (the Time Traveler, the Scientist, the Hilly-Billy, etc.) who explore a mysterious Cave, looking for something dear to them. And to get that object of desire, they are ready to do the nastiest things, including killing other people. Guybrush could very well be a characters from "The Cave" (The Pirate), with the Secret as its object of desire (or Big Whoop in Monkey 2). You can also draw some parallels to the Thimbleweed characters... to a certaint extent (that would be spoiler territory for The Cave!). In general, Ron's games have that feeling of visiting places that may not be real, of a collapsing reality. This was missing in MI3 and MI4, and in my opinion those games -- while good, especially MI3 -- betrayed a bit of the essence of Monkey Island. Tales had a different approach, as Grossman also says in the letter. The core of the game is the trust between the characters and how it evolved. It's true that Return opens the door to many more stories, but in my opinion telling a new traditional MI... doesn't make much sense now. You can do it, but it doesn't make sense. IMHO, they should change narrator and point of view get Morgan back, and try graphic adventures based on building trust and empathy. That would be something Guybrush didn't do, and couldn't do (ofc, Guybrush could still be a key NPC).
B-Mask, your videos are awesome. I have an enormous amount of respect for you, even if I don’t agree with you, never have you come across as somebody who demands the audience agree with you, just that they understand why you feel the way you do. Keep it up.
I'm going to try and make this as short as possible. I went to disney last week and the first ride at magic kingdom I did was pirates. First time in 10 years since the last time I rode it and had a good time just like the first time I rode it, much like my experience with the first monkey island. Anyway I'm of the camp that I didn't need monkey island to be this perfect pirate world with no modern things like sodas and t shirts. I just want it to be the world i thought it always was. "What if a world of pirates ran like a theme park?" But instead it's a real theme park that is also just a story being told that also knows it's in a video game.
I think those people who were so vitriolic toward you and Ron Gilbert are simply, tragically uncurious. It's sad and I question why they care so much about Monkey Island when they clearly can't think very deeply about anything.
I remember reading those comments on the last video and was taken aback by the negativity. I started playing the first two games because of your video and enjoyed the experience. I am definitely tainted by your video into believing the park ending but whatever I guess. I can at the very least say I enjoyed the game more with that context.
I'm particularly not a fan of "the ending is whatever you want it to be endings" as I think that speaks to the creator lacking intention. I think the creator needs to have a canon ending in mind, even if the viewer can have their own interpretation of the story. In the case of Monkey Island, I think a part of the frustration people have with the meta ending is that we have a little bit of an over saturation of postmodern media now and a straight forward pirate adventure would actually be refreshing.
The creators intentions are myriad within the game- and in this video. Regardless of what other post modern works are out there, I still think it's an intention worth pursuing.
@@BMask I think you illustrated the creators vision convincingly, for me personally at least, and with remarkable good will. I didn't know people felt so strongly against the theme park ending. And while I personally am a little tired of meta narratives, my favorite piece of fiction is Evangelion so I recognise that they are valuable and engaging. I find it refreshing that when responding to those comments in the video you did it without vitriol or being performatively angry. Something I wish we could have more in the media critique/analysis sphere is some class. Thanks for another great video, cheers!
every time yahtzee shows up in a video essay by someone i admire they're having the dumbest possible take…is that representative of what they make or just a sad coincidence
Guybrush: "a man, in a park, telling stories". You could of simply made him own the park after he grew up in it, all the game in-park films as he struggles with meaning
I think there is an uncanny similarity between the reception of Return and that of the Scott Pilgrim animated series. I feel like the creators of these projects have grown and evolved as people, and that their maturity shines through their latest work. I get the impression that the old fans who hate the new stuff are stuck in a rut, looking for a nostagia hit strong enough to time travel.
I don't think the Scott Pilgrim comparison is fair when that adaptation was basically just a nostalgia trip for the movies anyway and a weaker more confused narrative overall that rushed Ramona's development because they wanted to copy FF7Remake. If these creators have truly evolved from their work, they really should just move on instead of manipulating people into thinking they're getting one product and then receiving another. That applies to more these retroactive remakes that meddle with the OG rather than moving on and truly creating something new rather than Return but you get the point
The only thing i did not enjoy that much in this game was the puzzle design, especially collecrion the stuff to open the Secret chest. I mean, it would be great i the keys were... Like not keys :p idk, some magis items to break the magic barrier or something.
eaaaah Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
I grew up with the original MI titles and other Lucasfilm games, and I'm sad that RtMI turned out the way it did. For me, it kinda butchered all that Monkey Island ever was, by forcing so many of the memories into cheap jokes and illogical puzzles, stuck onto a weak storyline with duct tape. The humor doesn't come from the situation naturally, it tries to siphon off the old games because it can't or doesn't want to deliver anything new, probably out of fear of retconning too much. Also the weird anachronism of making it look a low-poly "retro" game, when each of the original titles were more or less at the current technology level of the time they were released. They are old and retro now, but they weren't at their time. A real sequel would have rather been done in 2020 tech, think Senuas Sacrifice style, just with less FPS combat and more insults.
@@WooShell Then I think that's another mischaracterisation in light of what's been offered. You know there's no fear of invalidating anything because as far as they're concerned there is no canon- it's all fluid. To be afraid of it would be to not return to make a game at all.
@@BMaskIf that's not what the devs intended, it ought to be. Hey while I've got your attention, thought I'd throw in my two cents: I agree you presented a good case for why LeFlay could have worked well in the story. Seemed you were implying her as one of the new Pirate Leaders? Wanted to say, I think I get where the creatives were coming from; that this new generation has no connection to Guybrush, no familiarity, and helps solidify that tone that the world is moving on without him. You'd sacrifice some of that with old faces - though, yeah, we could have used a little more time to get to know these new guys...
Oh absolutely, like I said in the video I'm equally conflicted by whether or not it's better or worse than what they decided on as it stands. I guess ultimately as long as we connect her to the girl in the game's intro the overall intention still works!
eaaaah Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
I love how we are getting a return of point and clicks in recent years with the Sam and Max remasters, Putt Putt on Switch, Grim Fandango on Switch, and now Monkey Island returning
feel like it’s also important to give a shout out to the indie ones as well. Seeing people like Jacksepticeye playing There Is No Game Wrong Dimension legit made me super happy for reasons outside of a big guy playing a game I like
I'm glad that you went into what LeChuck represents and the dark ways in which he reflects Guybrush, which I feel have gone a little under-analyzed. The game frequently points out how deluded and shallow his feelings about Elaine and The Secret are, and when you combine this with the lines that are frequently drawn between him and Guybrush it makes an interesting point about both characters. While LeChuck and Guybrush are both obsessive, destructive, and delusional (Flambe nailed it when he said "You two deserve each other"), Guybrush never lost his love of the fantasy. Guybrush wants to find The Secret because he wants to find a place in the world again, while LeChuck wants to find it because he thinks that it will arbitrarily get him what he wants. To LeChuck, Elaine and The Secret are only a means to a selfish end. This is why Guybrush gets to pass on the fantasy of Monkey Island to his son, while LeChuck is last seen either fighting Lila for The Secret in Hell forever or as a dilapidated animatronic doing the same motions over and over again.
So I've never played the Monkey Island games, but I *have* played the Danganronpa ones, and lemme tell you, this is a VERY familiar reaction from a subsection of fans about a very very similar thing lmao. Love your videos man, keep up the good work!
I just like the idea of monkey island being a funny story that Guybrush tells his kids even if they are inconsistent stories and having fun doing so it’s about a park worker who got so sucked into his job and loved every moment of it he got lost into the fictional side
It reminds me a lot of (SPOILER) Orion and The Dark. What starts as a goofy story about learning not to be scared of the dark turns into a father bonding with his daughter through stories, helping her overcome her own fears and creating something deeper and more meaningful together that is carried through to future generations.
I was about to write a LONG essay post on this, but I think this'll sum up my thoughts a bit more succinctly: If MI1 is about being on the ride, and MI2 is about getting off the ride and seeing the animatronics, Return is about giving back in to the fantasy and craftsmanship of the ride. And given what Ron wrote and what his vision for what MI3 would've been was...yeah that seems about right. Especially for a LucasArts title. Like any theme park ride, things change over time and new people take over. I don't really see this as Ron being pretentious or glibbing people over getting too meta; it's too genuine and too understanding of what came before to take it that way, at least for me personally. It feels less like Ron and David abandoned plot threads from other games in favor of telling those stories, more like they aren't their stories to tell. ...Whether or not that was executed well is another story, but regardless: It's not their ride anymore. They'll always have final say because they made it, but it's not theirs anymore. But so long as the core of the ride stays the same, I'm kind of okay with that. Hell, if nothing else, the fact that you not only unintentionally lived what Ron was probably experiencing/writing himself over the years, but to have it pretty much confirmed by the man himself, if not emblematic of the point he was making, has to feel at least somewhat cathartic. EDIT: Also these games are just super cozy at heart. That's really the core: so long as IT has fun, I'll have fun. Again, kinda like a real theme park lol
There was always something underlining about the series to me that I couldn't ever put the finger on it, specially when listening the main theme song. Then, watching your video, it clicked me in the outro: this cozy, comfortable feeling of fantasy and joy, this storytelling experience to share your thoughts -- both the wonder and the snarky -- shared among people. Sure, not everything is perfect, executed well or hit with everyone, but it is always a fun ride that stays with you and always brings new experiences in each revisit. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
This was the most artistically honest game I’ve ever seen. But I suppose the full picture can only be appreciated if you’re truly invested in the franchise as a whole and treat games as art rather than just products. The hate comments really made my blood boil lmao Good job as always!
I cannot believe it took me a month to actually come around and watch this video. I was really worried about Return because I didn't know where it was going to go, especially with the new art-style I did not anticipated, but I trusted Ron because I love all his games and I always felt he, and Dave and Tim, were the only ones to really get to the essence of Monkey Island and I sure wasn't disappointed. When I started the game the art-style just clicked to me. I don't no why I was ambivalent about it before, maybe it's just that I was surprise because I didn't anticipated this direction at all. The endings feels like it is the only ending that can fit, brilliantly bringing together all the elements of this game and the previous games as well together. To be honest, Revenge is still my favourite but I love this game, more than I thought I would, and I am actually not bothered by most of the things you mentioned you didn't like about the game. The only complaint is that the hard mod is not as hard as I wish it was. The thing that upset me the most is how the terrible reaction to the game effected Ron and spoiled his enjoyment sharing it, and for me it also ruined the enjoyment of his blog with now comments turned off and it seems he rarely if ever post there again. I don't blame him at all, and how it effected him is much worse, but I really resent that this isle of joy I had on the internet will never be the same any more because some people don't know how to react to things they didn't like. This comment is longer than I expected, but I have a lot of feelings about Monkey Island and this video caused them to resurface.
@@BMask Whilst I wasn't a fan of the game as a whole (not just the ending) I appreciated that it tried to do something different but I felt like it was so heavy handed with the meta commentary that it just took me out of it
Seeing some of the comments you put in the video is a shame. I think there's such a good conversation to be had about this game but it always turns into an argument. Kudos on the vid I enjoyed it
Twin Peaks and Lynch. Metal Gear and Kojima. No More Heroes and SUDA51. Monkey Island with Gilbert. When the originals take charge of a project that was always their own, it always leads to a different feel and uniqueness. While they can often be imitated by others, they can never be duplicated and Monkey with Ron back in the chair, just has that feel of 1 and 2.
Also it can not be understated how much that last letter when you finish the game feels like the most warm hug ever to the player the fans. Comes out from the screen and touches our souls.
@@zenithquasar9623 I felt the other way around. I won't make a long essay to explain myself since I feel B-Mask did it amazingly not only in this video. So I will try to digest the strong points of what I feelt was a warming message to us loaded with affection and sincerity: 1- The game started as a fun idea that was really just trying (and achieved) to emulate adventure. 2- Success meant that the expectations grew bigger and bigger and people started fan theorizing and creating their own tall tales (a good storyteller knows this is an intended effect showing you got the attention you searched). 3- All is embraced, all is allowed, there is not an end to Gaybrush's adventures, but the curse long overdue chaining him to become a souless mockery of his starting point is lifted. He can now be free from its origin and pursue other treasures. After all. That was his original goal: to be a pirate and live the adventure. All this is also tangled with the realization of how time passed and its effect on every person, be them players or the creators.
I had a thought while watching this, about the nature of stories and life and all that... My dad died in 2012 and growing up we (me my dad my sibling my mom) would play these games together, sitting around the computer calling out ideas. My experiences with those stories from the first 4 games are also experiences with my dad. And no matter what comes next in this series, i will always replay those older ones (not 4, i did not like how you controlled guybrush) and remember sharing time with my dad. Playing return and having those precious games recontextualized as stories a dad was telling his kid really hit me in that regard. And any bew MI game, I will play it and will still akways be connected to my father because of thise games, the stories, the experiences, that led to the current game. I don't have an elegant way to tie that to anything about the secret or metafiction or anything like that, but this just starting running through my mind. Great analysis!
While I appreciated what Ron and co were trying to say, I am one of those fans I guess who was more enthralled with the pirate theme escape fantasy with unique humour than the actual metanarrative behind all of this. The part that gave joy to me about these games was the fantasy, not the behind the scenes bits. And as an adult, already struggling with everything that's giving me joy being tinged with some undercurrent of sadness makes it harder to swallow this one ended this way. That's just too depressing for me. I want the fantasy, I want the safety and joy of the lie.
Here's the tough thing to hear- we can't change that it is what it is, and what it came from. Sometimes we have to be confronted with the truth- but the game asks, even knowing that, can you still accept the story? Can you still enjoy the journey you went on and the games you loved regardless of the secret finally being revealed? They want you to have the fantasy- they just want it to be *your* fantasy, rather than the one they initially thought of. It's going to be hard to swallow, but it's all the more worthwhile for doing so.
@@CaveWaverider There should have been a clear choice before we opened that last door to town. If we really wanted to open the door and find out the secret but die in the process, or go back to live forever in monkey island with Elaine as a pirate (something like that)
A bit surprised you didn't bring up The Cave in any way. Another game by Ron that was also about characters chasing after something they longed for in hopes that they'll get what they want in the end-- something that felt reflective of what Guybrush was going through both in Return and Revenge(Return and Cave even end the same way). I know it wasn't exactly a perfect 10, but given it was an idea that Ron had long before Monkey Island, I felt it odd there wasn't any passing mention towards it. Otherwise, another stellar video as always.
Thanks Fez! The main reason was because I felt the Cave kinda fumbled it's message by giving a binary good or bad ending, neither of which really felt like they matched with the actions of the actual stages which were also fairly predictable in their narratives. I love the idea of the game and some of the stuff it was doing otherwise, but I think thimbleweed, 2 and return better built to the point I wanted to make, and decided to make them the focus of the final section.
The idea of Guybrush being the floor inspector of a pirate themed amusement park puts the goofiest grin on my face. To me one of the strengths of adventure games is anyone can be an adventure game protagonist. One of the most iconic adventure game protagonists of all time being something so specific and silly just feels right.
Monkey Island is what you want it to be. It definitely means a lot of things for different people. I personally do view the whole theme park thing as one of Guybrush's flights of fancy (and he has plenty of them), and the secret being "I Found the Secret of Monkey Island and all I got was this stupid t-shirt" being a perfect "full circle" as it were. I much prefer to think of him and Elaine (and Guybrush Jr.) off exploring the high seas, rather than Guybrush just going off and selling fine leather jackets. It can ALSO be an allegory at the same time though.
You touch on the point yourself, but what I loved most about the game was that it really includes Curse, Escape and Tales as legitimate entries in the series, whilst also giving us a pretty clear portrait of what Ron's third game was originally conceived as. It would have been so easy to portray games 3, 4 and 5 as 'what ifs' that 'didn't really happen' and say "Here's what REALLY happened". In fact, I think I might like those games MORE in retrospect now that they sit more comfortably alongside Ron's entries.
I have to say I was initially a bit disappointed by the ending of Return, but have come around to it later on. I don't think it could had been done any other way.
One of your finest videos yet, B-Mask. Admittedly, my knowledge of the Monkey Island series really only extends to your videos and, funnily enough, Yahtzee's reviews. I saw his review of Return to Monkey Island and got the general gist of the ending being "There is no real secret to Monkey Island. Move on and focus on something else." While I didn't take it as anything mean-spirited by the creators of the game, I was kind of disappointed that the ending seemed to be a shrug and an, "Ah, well it didn't really matter." But, watching your video, I can appreciate the more wholesome and inspiring meaning of the ending. It's not a shrug that it didn't matter, it's a nodding acceptance that it all mattered in a way. The new Monkey Island games outside of Gilbert's original vision, as well as the interpretations of the players that played the games. It's not cynical, but a beautiful reflection on how stories change over time and that there is value to open interpretations to stories, rather than definite truths. What we bring to and read into a story is just as valuable as what the creators originally intended. Thank you for showing me that through such a sharply-written video. I may need to actually play through these games myself when I can.
some people just don't like being played tricks on. Ron Gilbert was quoted stating that Monkey Island being a theme park was NOT its secret. This was a reason for the big buildup to a 'proper' MI3 by Ron, after all (not knocking Curse, it was a great game).
Yo B I am deeply appreciative of this video. I have a lot of thoughts that I would struggle to put into words, and a lot of it has already been put into better words by you or by Ron or by the No Clip documentary. I think my favorite line in this video is "how something that isn't real can still matter". I feel like that's truly the heart of a lot of the controversy behind this series, it can really suck to get to the end of the roller coaster and have to get off and admit that wasn't a "real" adventure. I think from the beginning that's what this has been about, but it's also been about storytelling and how you can have an idea but that doesn't mean every thought and decision you have will reflect that, because it's just people telling a story and people change and grow and contradict their own thoughts and beliefs. I hope a lot of people resonate with this video in the way I did. In the same way we resonate with the games in the series, whether or not they're "cannon" or made by Ron. I also strongly recommend the No Clip documentary on the series because it was really cool and impactful to have the entire story told with the people who started it all, glad it did come out before this so you could have that resource.
I'm so glad you liked it! I felt there were a lot of people out there who felt this way but weirdly didn't have a video of their own vocalising those thoughts. Really wanted to correct that, and excellent comments like this are still giving me more to think about, even after having made my own decisions on what I felt it was saying.
The real secret of monkey island -was the friends we made along the way.- is a franchise's eternal struggle with the average joe's media literacy. I may have some conflicting feelings about the whole theme park angle, at least, how 2 originally presented it. But I'm not about to claim a weird superiority against it, or be about to say it came out of nowhere at all. Sometimes a piece of media is best experienced with your eyes _actually_ open.
The series retconned it once, and Ron Gilbert also basically lied about it as well, but I think after all this time people should have been able to see through him on that point. I guess I've seen a lot of fans of various media cling obliviously to the creator's words and ignore the textual evidence in front of them and it's always a trap, though they don't always turn on the creator, sometimes the fans just keep finding new interpretations that keep letting the creator be right.
Yeah, his RMI review is the most headass take I can remember seeing from him in 16 years of watching lol. It's fine to hate the game or its story for a lot of reasons, but the idea that Gilbert and Grossman hate these characters and hate you for caring about them is objectively ridiculous
Last year I went to experience the entire Monkey Island series just to play this last one, I’ve always loved Lucasgilm games, and Monkey was one series I never played, so I went to change that, and oh boy, what a journey, it was one of my favorite experiences of all time, I had so much fun, the dialogs were so intelligent, they were so funny, but that ending, it felt so cool, like I was literally crying, cause this was my journey, like I truly remembered all this experiences, all the time that I played, and was one of the happiest moments I’ve had playing any video game, it felt personal, I really enjoyed what Ron Gilbert brought, cause it was like the Ultimate Monkey Island experience, I fell in love with the series, I even wrote to all the team to express my gratitude, cause it felt to me like ir was made with heart, that was for me the truly experience about the secret, cause the intention about the series was never to found the treasure, wherever that was, but also never let you with anything to hold on if you really wanted to know the secret, so it was brilliantly executed, this are marvelous games, and I’m glad to been alive just to experience this games over and over again. PS: Look behind you! A tree headed monkey!!!!!
An excellent video essay! I was waiting so much for this video! I completely agree with you about the meaning of RTMI! I see it in the exactly same way! RtMI is a game about the art of storytelling. Sure, Ron explained the ending of MI2 and revealed his original Secret, but he also brought all the Monkey Island games closer together. Guybrush is an unreliable narrator, so he might have even spiced up his story by adding the Giant Monkey Robot and Herman Toothroot revelation. If the stories are fictional then Guybrush or Boybrush might have tweaked them in any different way - adding elements or discarding them later... But then again, we can't be completely sure if all of the Monkey Island stories were fictional or not. In the end, it's up to the player to decide how to interpret things... We have seen the Secret change in subsequent Monkey Island games, and RtMI says that it is perfectly ok for the stories to change over time. RtMI provides a certain closure for the fans, but at the same time, it leaves the door open for future creators with their own stories to be told... So yeah, thank you for the amazing video essay! You've just inspired me to replay RtMI again!
I absolutely loved the style of the game but I thought dialogue/writing wasn't as sharp as expected from Gilbert and Grosman. I wonder why that is. And, I never once wondered what the "Secret" was. I always thought that was part of the joke of the original. Never knew people were obsessed about an answer lol.
I'm 49 now - played the original game when I was 15 when I played The Secret of Monkey Island, gathered around my A500 with my 3 best friends trying to work all the puzzles out - it took us quite a few weekends to get through it. By the time M2 came out I was 17, this time we gathered around my friends 386, and being a little bit older and wiser, it didn't take us so long to finish it - we were all quite puzzled by the ending at the time, and spent many hours discussing it and piecing together all the clues from both M1 and M2 - none of us hated it, we all thought it was clever and funny - but meta endings weren't very common in the early 90's - now every franchise seems to do it constantly. It was undoubtedly a game that in some way changed all 4 of us in the way only really good art can - and we would often talk about it years later. I missed the following games - I had followed R+Ds advise from the end of M2 by that point and started talking to girls and lost interest in gaming. In 2022 I heard about Return, and was mildly interested, but just too busy with life to play games - so it wasn't until early last month, realizing I was on the verge of burning out, I decided I needed to do something fun that I hadn't tried in years - and picked up this game. I loved every minute of it - no doubt a big part of it was the nostalgia - but I honestly think it was very much up to the standards of Monkey 2. Agree I found the puzzles very easy even on the difficult level - I finished the game in 3 sessions, probably no more than 6 hours - not including replays to try out the different endings and dialogue options etc. - but it was genuinely fun and touching, and made me think - just like the first two games.
Great video about your journey with this series, Ron's journey, and well pretty much everyone's at this point. You're great at setting out the different perspectives and not excluding people from the story, but instead observing over the bigger picture. Amazing stuff.
Great video like last time. I wasnt happy with this title, I kinda knew I wouldnt from the trailers, but I appreciate that he got to make the game he wanted to after all these years. Its not like we didnt get another Monkey Island game instead, the IP was beyond dormant. So hey, good for him. You actually blocked me on Twitter because we got into a debate about this game which is a shame lol Will keep watching your vids, youre one of the better active VEs on YT right now.
Thanks, I think part of that was that I realised it would be impossible to keep up a debate I knew I could never divulge the full thoughts on that I'd plan to get to in a video, with plans to do that as soon as possible. But then the days turned into weeks, weeks into months etc etc... however that debate went down, I hope this serves my feelings better.
@@BMask No hard feelings, you were def getting a lot of tweets on it at the time. Like I said the games still not for me but appreciate it more now thanks to this Great vid, looking forward to the next comic one!
You get emotional answers from people that love the game as they remember it. A computer game (back then) never changed. Only our perception and context does. It can hurt to see them in a new light with new information one learns. Then there can be a feeling of loss and tragic. Some people can not accept their growth and wisdom, so they start fighting the change, fight try to fight the influence that changes them. It is tragic but reasonable. Right now i shed a few tears over something i have lost without the ability to name it. Great video, thank you.
FISH PEOPLE
ITS NOT FRIDAY YET SHUSH
@@ImortalZeus13 this is sending me
Those damn Innsmouthers!
Fish People
I think it all clicked for me at the fishemen's society quest. How clear it all was when I realized one of the longest puzzles in the whole game which span a characters from all over the game is a puzzle about crafting an engaging story, with said characters explaining to you that just telling a story isn't enough, but how you craft it. I also noticed how the story itself was an event from Tales, which Ron gave creative input to. Fitting for a puzzle about telling a story, hearing feedback, and adapting It for the people's enjoyment.
I have always struggled with Monkey Island. I love the franchise and has ever since I was a young lad. the first one I played was funny enough MI2 on a pirated (heh) copy on my dad's ol computer, with the first played soon after and brought legitimately after seeing it at a store. As such, growing up and understanding the implications of the franchise always divided my brain: One part of me admires what ron tried to do and say while the other still felt hurt about the idea the ending making it feel like there was no worth on the characters. I feel this game does what rarely any game of it kind does and what, when you think about it, storytelling is all about: COMPROMISE
The ending, the talk with mini guybrush and Elaine at the end all add to what makes the ending so great: It allows ANYONE to craft their own canon and legitalizes any future MI game to still work in either narrative. Are any future instalments just more stories Guybrush the theme park flooring inspector is telling to his family? Yes. Are they new events in the wacky magical piraty world Guybrush lives in, with the theme park is just another of Stan's schemes using Guybrush's adventures as a way to make profit? ALSO Yes. It can be molded in any way you want and I feel that's a beautiful thing. Monkey Island is about Stories, and the ways we interact with them be them real or fantasy
Great comment. That last paragraph really feels like the key, storytelling is and always has been in our own hands, and no game has epitomized that more from the very first sequel than Monkey Island
Great take. While reading it, I realized I have fewer problems with the "it's a kid's fantasy" storyline than I thought I had. Because, when I was a kid, I built these Lego cities with loads of characters. And every friend had their own character and over the months we'd have great adventures. Those were all made up and the characters weren't real. But that doesn't matter. That meant something to us and to me. I still remember some of them. It was just playing on the one hand, but on the other hand it was great and meaningful. The same can be said for MI2. While the "it isn't real" narrative may be pityful for all those pirates, it's kind of heartwarming to think about this kid that had unstrained, almost naive, but great meaningful fun.
Oh hey, it's me at 35:44 for a split second.
I stand by what I said, and I genuinely hope to see more adventures of Guybrush Threepwood in the future. Return is exactly what we needed, even if we refuse to accept it.
I don’t know why people were so hung up about the ending not revealing what the secret was. I mean, it’s pretty obvious what it is when you think about it.
It’s the three-headed monkey. Duh.
Someone pointed out to me a few years back the 'freak' enclosure in big whoop.
You might be more right than you know.
after watching the video i now understand.
I've been re-binging your videos *again.* I get home and you hit us with this? Time to find some snacks and get comfortable!
B Mask has some of the most rewatchable content on youtube
@@maxcasteel2141 yeah, definitely. And so super comfy too.
The fact this video only has a few thousand likes is absurd.
B-mask is genuinely one of the best creative people on this website, and he deserves way more recognition.
I'm a minute in, I'm electrified by that intro and so excited to watch this. Let me buy and finish the game and I'll be back
Fancy seeing you here
Ayy shoutout to OneShortEye!
I owe him a lot for putting my words right next to Ron Gilbert. Absolutely gobsmacking moment.
I just watched a 44 minute video on a subject I know nothing about and care even less about and throughly enjoyed it. Not only do I enjoy your videos on subjects I care about like Frasier and the Fantastic Four but even subjects I don't care about, and hate when I have to hit the pause button because something else is demanding my attention. And I'm someone that has trouble focusing on videos that are 20 minutes long.
Time to start up Return again and try another couple of ending variants.
Don't worry Bmask, as someone who likes fighting games I'm accostumed to be on the bad side of Yathzee's opinions, you get used to it.
It's all good, still think he's got his moments
Monkey Island taught me a very valuable lesson.
Never pay more than twenty dollars for a video game.
It really feels like 80% of the time people are mad at art it’s because, deep down, they don’t fully understand it
I agree with you a lot. I enjoyed Return and I'm very happy it got made. Maybe the ending was a little disappointing in terms of not paying out the in-story stuff yet again, but I also really liked the meta-commentary of it all while viewing the game in a meta sense, and you really do get so many clues throughout the game not to take it at face value. I guess before I played it, I had been hoping for another game that would stick to in-universe and take itself seriously, but after playing Thimbleweed Park, and now this, I get it. This is Ron Gilbert and this is what he does. He's not a corporation trying to make something blandly appealing to the widest audience possible, he's part of a creative team consisting of human beings with creative vision and preferences. They have every right to make this game they way they wanted to make it, as a commentary on the journey of the whole game series, and they ended up making a nostalgic and touching experience that celebrates the act of telling stories and indulging in playful fantasy, constantly recalling to me why I've loved this series since I was a kid playing Secret of Monkey of Island on my dad's Amiga.
I really do wonder about the "Ron sucks at writing endings" people. Do they think he was just like writing the story linearly, got to writing an ending and thought "ok I know I've been building all these threads up but I'm going to throw them all away now" like did we play the same game? The Monkey Island I played was an extremely contrived set of fun, entertaining set pieces with interactivity but always the unbreaking knowledge that everything about what you're experiencing was meticulously planned. They're not immersive narrative experiences, they are, by design, like theme park rides! It's a commentary on and a response to the genre itself and the ending of MI2 was a way to bring that into stark relief. It didn't make the games feel hollow, it's what made them interesting and memorable. What actually always felt really fucking hollow and meaningless to me was the wedding ending of Curse. That locked that game in as just a series of meaningless fun set pieces with absolutely nothing to say, and the set pieces were fun but that's not something that stays with you and encourages you to think deeply about what you've just experienced, look at things differently on replay etc the way the first two games did.
Sometimes art expression is going to rub people the wrong way not because of anything intentionally offensive, but just from the creative functional choices made.
This game’s response was an example of this and its message was also about that.
I think the _best_ thing about Return was the ending, specifically the last moments. Guybrush, sitting on the bench, appreciating a simple, pure moment. I've grown up playing Monkey Island, like most of us have. Secret was actually my first game (not my first Monkey Island game, my _first_ game). I've not just grown up playing Monkey Island, I've grown up _since_ playing it. I'm 36 now, and that little moment, when Guybrush sits on the park bench, I _never_ would have appreciated that as a kid, not even in my 20s, but in my 30s, that one little moment of peace was the perfect reward for playing the game. He's not racing off to the next adventure, immediately, just taking in that moment.
The whole game is very much a "no man can step in the same river twice" kind of story. The start, explicitly everything having changed over the years, the familiar with unfamiliar elements, and the ending, turning out all the lights and leaving the park, showing you see the past differently now to how you saw it in the moment.
I think the people who hate the ending are mostly people who haven't yet had this feeling in their own lives, or who might have, and _strongly_ rejected it when they felt it. I don't want to talk down to them and say they don't understand, or they need to grow up, I just want to say to them that maybe they should revisit the game in a few years.
Hi, member of the non-vocal majority here.
I wish more people experienced Return To Monkey Island on it's own terms. When I look at the initial hatred at the game's art-style, and the hatred towards it's ending, I can't help but feel these are opinions stemming from people having set-in-stone expectations that were not being met.
I admit, when I first played Return To Monkey Island and I got the T-Shirt, I had a chuckle but ultimately I felt let down. There was a period of time before the game was over where I just felt nothing.
Then came the scene afterward where adult Guybrush had the option to say that the secret isn't definitive, it changes with time and with who is telling the story. That line - plus the bonus Ron & Dave letter at the end of the scrapbook - got me to rethink my time with Return.
I had fun with Return... I engaged with it's puzzles, I laughed lots, I got giddy with excitement when I saw old faces return, and I eventually realised... the destination may not have been great, but the journey REALLY was great.
That realisation just devastated me... I was touched soo deeply that I genuinely sobbed - happily - over Return's ending (and I look back on it fondly), because it didn't matter... all that mattered was being able to spend more time in this wonderful fictional universe, engaging with it's world and it's characters, just one more time.
I feel like they could have done nothing else because expectations rose so high over the years.
You know, I think this game's meaning hit home a little late but as someone who wants to tell stories, the ending note spoke more to me than pretty much anything else I've ever seen in a game. That for me was the real secret. But that said, I burst out laughing wholeheartedly that the only thing in that chest was a shirt. Also, I was a bit like "What the f***, Guybrush?" becasue of what he did in the pursuit of the secret. It's also kept me excited to tell my own stories, in my own ways.
PS: I think I haven't ever quoted a film scene as consistently as that fish people bit in PotC 3.
Great video, I guess a lot of us who appreciated Return had a similar experience to the one you describe, loving the game as a kid, having a hard time letting go because of how much it touched us and influenced our personalities and lives. Return doesn't say "games are meaningless, grow up", it says "The meaning of games (and fiction in general) is what YOU take away."
In my ending of choice, while the Monkey Island world is not real, Elaine and his kid ARE. They are the most important people in his life, he shares his hobby with them and they love him and share some of the excitement, despite not being into it AS much. And it seems that Guybrush internalized throughout Return, that this is fine.
The Monkey Island games are not real and can't possibly be. But the people who made them, played them, discussed them endlessly and found each other through them, ARE.
I noticed that you included a clip from Toonstruck (1996). That game feels more relevant now than ever with the current state the animation industry is in. 🙂
Now... I'm sort of a different mind about this. I do, in fact, love Ron Gilbert's versions of Monkey Island... but I don't disagree with Yahtzee. The ending is HILARIOUS to me. And I don't even discount Gilbert's message here--I understood EXACTLY what he was saying the entire way there. Of COURSE the MEANING of the ending is about how unsatisfying a specific answer would be. Of COURSE his vision for the games was about the facade of piracy, its literal theme park re-interpretation, rather than anything vaguely resembling reality.
But the presentation is giving the audience the ending of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. No matter how many times you say "We can't possibly come up with a satisfying conclusion to this" it does not make up for the lack of a satisfying conclusion. It is an appropriate THEMATIC end to the story, but not to the plot or the characters. So you can either take that in humor, the end of a farcical anti-plot where the lack of conclusion is a prank played on the audience and therefore the entire joke (which I do) or you can feel blue-balled by the lack of a conclusion, which a lot of other people do.
I get it. The thematic throughline that gave vision to the work is important. But if it WASN'T meant as a screw-you to the audience, then that belies a misunderstanding of story presentation--which I feel like a lot of avant garde art misunderstands as well. Stories are not their theme. They're an experience. And the experience that Ron Gilbert has crafted is to blue-ball the audience. *Which is funny.* And probably infuriating.
People keep saying there was no conclusion to the character arcs or that there were dangling threads- but the arc for everyone is the discovery of the secret. Everyone who chases it becomes inanimate but Guybrush gains control of his narrative. Don't know what bizarre intrigues people have told themselves were set up outside that because the entire thing pays it off perfectly, and I left incredibly damn satisfied.
Yeah, was also satisfied with the story and thematic wrapup. I didn't need another LeChuck boss fight, but I admit I would've loved another surrealist crescendo of anachronistic clues as we breach the reality chrysalis ala MI2. But the tonal smash cut as you enter the Melee Island alley is also very effective and probably a better fit for this story.
This was moving. Good work boss man
I really, *really* hate that take Yahtzee had over the ending (the whole "not caring" wording hitting a bit of a raw nerve with me), but I heavily respect the decision to at least see where he was coming from even if you disagreed too. The effort to bring up previous context is commendable.
A NEW BMASK VIDEO!?!?
YEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!
nothing makes The Gamers angrier than things like subtext and metaphor
Great vid though I feel I should point out that Zero Punctuation is still *technically* going just under a different name and channel.
Second Wind, right? I'm glad, was rough the way that all went down.
Yep!
The wait for this one was so worth it, bravo B.
Been eagerly anticipating this and it turned out fantastic! Great job!!
Personally even when I got to the end I was telling my friends "It is a good game that has An Ending." I got what it was going for but I just wasn't into it, was never that deep into adventure games or Monkey Island admittedly. I never joined any of the hate mobs on the game and I always thought that was the worst of fandom as a force, that overpossesiveness for lack of a better term. But even when I quietly preordered and played it for myself I was underwhelmed by the conclusion made by the metanarrative. But your retrospective and framing of it does make me feel more affectionately whelmed by the ending. May as well bring some cursed, only somewhat-related topics up too. The feelings I had while playing Return and the way you put a lot of what I felt into words made it feel clear to me.
Return to Monkey Island achieved what Homestuck''s Epilogues had tried to pull off (in its much bleaker manner), and without a genuine undercurrent of worry that the writers might honestly not like the series or the people still engaging with it. Especially with the "Canon belongs to YOU" angle. If some Monkey Island fans felt that a nice little game like Return was mean or calling them out with THAT ending, with the series being what it was, they might genuinely have a stroke from what a hypothetical "combative" author could do. The fact Return garnered a very similar form of negative response from a contingent of fans, up to and including rejection of the meta-narrative from the original work out of frustration, is really interesting to me. Even when the story does offer sticking with things being exactly as they appear as an option, people got mad.
Do modern fandoms in general just end up having this kind of reaction to being told the specifics of what is or isn't "canon" in a long story does not really matter, and the work is whatever you want/need of it? I wonder if Homestuck Beyond Canon will end up in a similar place to Return to Monkey Island, both in terms the story feel and negative fan reaction, now that it's back to being updated and sticking with the myriad of Events that came before. Because as I keep up with the updates and reflect on a lot of my still-negative feelings for many of those Events, and more positive thoughts on how the team is progressing them, I always did kind of like the overall meta message. Especially so now with Andrew Hussie staying more in the background, giving commercial licenses to big HS fan projects like Vast Error so they can make more of a living from their work. That makes it feel like the door is open not just in fan imagination, but in real life with real progress being made to open it up a bit. But I dunno I'm rambling now.
I don't have any horse in the race for Homestuck, or Monkey Island. I'm not really familiar with them(besides watching B-Mask's videos), and don't know how I would feel about the different games and reveals, so don't take this as a commentary about either. But in a general sense: Some people just can't stand in-your face meta elements. The context matters, obviously. Personally I never minded a bit of fun with Fission Mailed, tutorial prompts talking about buttons or game mechanics, or Psycho Mantis reading your memory card in the Metal Gear Solid series. But on the other hand, I had zero patience for the in-game excuses in MGS2 for repeating elements, and in my opinion, doing them way worse than in MGS1. The actual theme of the game, the message, is quite positive. But what I _wanted_ was an exciting and funny spy story full of engaging characters which used the familiar framework I liked but took it to somewhere new. What I didn't want was some meta, knowing continuation that focused a lot on the player and didn't provide a meaningful change to the setting or resolve its plotline, and failed to have characters that at all endeared themselves to me. That feeling might be familiar to some Monkey Island or Homestuck fans.
Kojima made Metal Gear Solid 3 afterwards, so there's no hard feelings from me, that's exactly the game I wanted. But my point is, for some players it doesn't matter at all what sort of point you're making by going meta, 'cause you already lost them by going in that direction to start with. What I wanted wasn't for the story of MGS2 for example to provide a more flattering portrait of the player. What I wanted was for the story to in no way acknowledge that I, or some larger "fandom" I guess I'm a part of, even exist to start with. It's not something I think is interesting or fun as anything more than a little joke. Even if what the message is saying is entirely validating, like, "whatever you think is best is what's right", it's frustrating to people with this mindset, 'cause what I think is best is _not_ doing this meta stuff.
To be clear, this doesn't mean I inherently reject the message being presented(it depends, obviously), or that I don't get them(though admittedly, this also depends). I just think a meta way of presenting those ideas is annoying. For example, I already know that whatever piece of fiction is a piece of fiction, and can be engaging and worthwhile even though it is not real. If the characters in a game interrupt the story tell me that, I'd sit there thinking, yeah? So what? That's obvious, isn't it? Can we get on with the piece of fiction I was engaged with again? To me, pointing out the artificiality or stepping outside the story in that way to tell me something usually feels tedious, especially when it's something super obvious you're laying out. I don't think it's too hard to grapple with, I think it's boring, and any additional points the dev wants to make isn't coming across in a favorable light. Even though the writer is talking more directly to me, it makes me actively disinterested in what they have to say.
I can only speak for myself, and I've never sent any hate to Kojima or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if other people dislike this sort of stuff for similar reasons. The fact that it's meta at all is way more damning than anything being said.
@@Kriss_ch. I will say I think MGS2 is kind of a masterpiece. If we always gave in to what players wanted I don't think we'd have half of the most interesting games out there- or that I would ask questions of myself and where I stand as a human being outside of the game itself, which is an inherently powerful thing to achieve. People who complain ironically have more than their share of what they prefer to fall back on- so I will always argue the case for the opposite with those who feel the opposite given the chance.
@@BMaskThat's fair. Even if I get frustrated sometimes and can't quite change my own perspective on those things, I can at least appreciate that for other people they get meaning like that out of it. And I think the way you ask yourself those questions and the meaning you take from it, is at least part of what keeps me coming back to watch your videos. If I was making an MGS2 video, it'd just be a takedown of parts that annoyed me. But if it was you, you would really take those ideas they presented and run with them to the conclusion you came to, and it would be much more interesting as a result. In that roundabout way, I'm also getting enjoyment out of MGS2 through the medium of others. To bring it back to this video, Yahtzee's review is fun and all(and I agree he's got plenty of good points), but I definitely get the sense you're the one seeing the bigger picture, and this video will stick with me a lot longer than his did.
While I still haven’t played Return to Monkey Island, watching this video makes me want to go and play through, not just return, but the whole Monkey Island franchise. Well done B-Mask.
thank you for dropping this the day before final fantasy 7 rebirth so i have something to help pass the time waiting for it to unlock on my ps5
Shish people Sunday!
Yahtzee is still doing his thing. The show is now called Fully Ramblomatic on Second Wind, because of a mass exodus of talent from The Escapist.
When my friend got the first Monkey Island game on his Commodore Amiga, we couldn't get enough of it. The jokes were hilarious, the puzzles often left you wanting to shout out "NOW YOU'RE JUST TAKING THE PISS". But none of that mattered, its cute animation and seriously addictive story made it our favourite game. (After the 89 Batman anyway.)
Great video! Monkey Island means so much to me, and it really pains me seeing all the negativity regarding Ron and the ending (and the art style too).
Wonderful video! Something entirely not important to but inaccurate is that you would not have smelled chlorine on pirates at disney, be because Disney uses Bromine instead of chlorine!
Thanks, and appreciate the correction- you'd think of everything else I checked I could've checked this too!
B-Mask, have you played The Cave? This game is another piece of the Ron's Monkey puzzle. There are 9 characters (the Time Traveler, the Scientist, the Hilly-Billy, etc.) who explore a mysterious Cave, looking for something dear to them. And to get that object of desire, they are ready to do the nastiest things, including killing other people. Guybrush could very well be a characters from "The Cave" (The Pirate), with the Secret as its object of desire (or Big Whoop in Monkey 2). You can also draw some parallels to the Thimbleweed characters... to a certaint extent (that would be spoiler territory for The Cave!).
In general, Ron's games have that feeling of visiting places that may not be real, of a collapsing reality. This was missing in MI3 and MI4, and in my opinion those games -- while good, especially MI3 -- betrayed a bit of the essence of Monkey Island.
Tales had a different approach, as Grossman also says in the letter. The core of the game is the trust between the characters and how it evolved. It's true that Return opens the door to many more stories, but in my opinion telling a new traditional MI... doesn't make much sense now. You can do it, but it doesn't make sense. IMHO, they should change narrator and point of view get Morgan back, and try graphic adventures based on building trust and empathy. That would be something Guybrush didn't do, and couldn't do (ofc, Guybrush could still be a key NPC).
B-Mask, your videos are awesome. I have an enormous amount of respect for you, even if I don’t agree with you, never have you come across as somebody who demands the audience agree with you, just that they understand why you feel the way you do. Keep it up.
I love how the youtube ecosystem resulted in Ron Gilbert being asked about your theory!
Thanks for not (re)using the screenshot of me saying Ron was full of shit. I shouldn't have said that.
I'm going to try and make this as short as possible.
I went to disney last week and the first ride at magic kingdom I did was pirates. First time in 10 years since the last time I rode it and had a good time just like the first time I rode it, much like my experience with the first monkey island.
Anyway I'm of the camp that I didn't need monkey island to be this perfect pirate world with no modern things like sodas and t shirts. I just want it to be the world i thought it always was.
"What if a world of pirates ran like a theme park?"
But instead it's a real theme park that is also just a story being told that also knows it's in a video game.
I think those people who were so vitriolic toward you and Ron Gilbert are simply, tragically uncurious. It's sad and I question why they care so much about Monkey Island when they clearly can't think very deeply about anything.
In a way the secret is a portal to hell, and Stan is there.
I remember reading those comments on the last video and was taken aback by the negativity. I started playing the first two games because of your video and enjoyed the experience. I am definitely tainted by your video into believing the park ending but whatever I guess. I can at the very least say I enjoyed the game more with that context.
great friggin vid
i love u man
I'm particularly not a fan of "the ending is whatever you want it to be endings" as I think that speaks to the creator lacking intention. I think the creator needs to have a canon ending in mind, even if the viewer can have their own interpretation of the story. In the case of Monkey Island, I think a part of the frustration people have with the meta ending is that we have a little bit of an over saturation of postmodern media now and a straight forward pirate adventure would actually be refreshing.
The creators intentions are myriad within the game- and in this video. Regardless of what other post modern works are out there, I still think it's an intention worth pursuing.
@@BMask I think you illustrated the creators vision convincingly, for me personally at least, and with remarkable good will. I didn't know people felt so strongly against the theme park ending. And while I personally am a little tired of meta narratives, my favorite piece of fiction is Evangelion so I recognise that they are valuable and engaging.
I find it refreshing that when responding to those comments in the video you did it without vitriol or being performatively angry. Something I wish we could have more in the media critique/analysis sphere is some class.
Thanks for another great video, cheers!
every time yahtzee shows up in a video essay by someone i admire they're having the dumbest possible take…is that representative of what they make or just a sad coincidence
Guybrush: "a man, in a park, telling stories". You could of simply made him own the park after he grew up in it, all the game in-park films as he struggles with meaning
Thank you! I’m so excited. I was as hyped for this video as I was for the game. ❤
And I’m in the video, again. Wow. So grateful. ❤ Thanks for your hard work. Your analysis are always top-notch.
@@joemonsters Thank you! Pleasure to have included you in the screenshots.
Pirates of the Caribbean video essay when? Seriously though, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the series. This was a great video.
I think there is an uncanny similarity between the reception of Return and that of the Scott Pilgrim animated series. I feel like the creators of these projects have grown and evolved as people, and that their maturity shines through their latest work.
I get the impression that the old fans who hate the new stuff are stuck in a rut, looking for a nostagia hit strong enough to time travel.
I don't think the Scott Pilgrim comparison is fair when that adaptation was basically just a nostalgia trip for the movies anyway and a weaker more confused narrative overall that rushed Ramona's development because they wanted to copy FF7Remake.
If these creators have truly evolved from their work, they really should just move on instead of manipulating people into thinking they're getting one product and then receiving another.
That applies to more these retroactive remakes that meddle with the OG rather than moving on and truly creating something new rather than Return but you get the point
fish people
The only thing i did not enjoy that much in this game was the puzzle design, especially collecrion the stuff to open the Secret chest. I mean, it would be great i the keys were... Like not keys :p idk, some magis items to break the magic barrier or something.
eaaaah
Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube
Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good
Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube
Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
Oh, Doobus...
I grew up with the original MI titles and other Lucasfilm games, and I'm sad that RtMI turned out the way it did. For me, it kinda butchered all that Monkey Island ever was, by forcing so many of the memories into cheap jokes and illogical puzzles, stuck onto a weak storyline with duct tape. The humor doesn't come from the situation naturally, it tries to siphon off the old games because it can't or doesn't want to deliver anything new, probably out of fear of retconning too much.
Also the weird anachronism of making it look a low-poly "retro" game, when each of the original titles were more or less at the current technology level of the time they were released. They are old and retro now, but they weren't at their time. A real sequel would have rather been done in 2020 tech, think Senuas Sacrifice style, just with less FPS combat and more insults.
'Probably for fear of retconning too much' I'm curious as to if you left this comment before or after you watched the video.
@@BMask I was about 3/4 through the video when I started typing, and sent it as the video ended.
@@WooShell Then I think that's another mischaracterisation in light of what's been offered. You know there's no fear of invalidating anything because as far as they're concerned there is no canon- it's all fluid. To be afraid of it would be to not return to make a game at all.
Yeah well... you fight like a dairy farmer!
Arguably, the new transformation of LeChuck here is "cardboard cutout".
hey that works
@@BMaskIf that's not what the devs intended, it ought to be.
Hey while I've got your attention, thought I'd throw in my two cents: I agree you presented a good case for why LeFlay could have worked well in the story. Seemed you were implying her as one of the new Pirate Leaders? Wanted to say, I think I get where the creatives were coming from; that this new generation has no connection to Guybrush, no familiarity, and helps solidify that tone that the world is moving on without him. You'd sacrifice some of that with old faces - though, yeah, we could have used a little more time to get to know these new guys...
Oh absolutely, like I said in the video I'm equally conflicted by whether or not it's better or worse than what they decided on as it stands. I guess ultimately as long as we connect her to the girl in the game's intro the overall intention still works!
@@BMaskRoger roger. Thanks again for the video! Can't wait for the next one!
eaaaah
Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube
Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good
Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube
Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
I love how we are getting a return of point and clicks in recent years with the Sam and Max remasters, Putt Putt on Switch, Grim Fandango on Switch, and now Monkey Island returning
feel like it’s also important to give a shout out to the indie ones as well. Seeing people like Jacksepticeye playing There Is No Game Wrong Dimension legit made me super happy for reasons outside of a big guy playing a game I like
I'm glad that you went into what LeChuck represents and the dark ways in which he reflects Guybrush, which I feel have gone a little under-analyzed. The game frequently points out how deluded and shallow his feelings about Elaine and The Secret are, and when you combine this with the lines that are frequently drawn between him and Guybrush it makes an interesting point about both characters. While LeChuck and Guybrush are both obsessive, destructive, and delusional (Flambe nailed it when he said "You two deserve each other"), Guybrush never lost his love of the fantasy. Guybrush wants to find The Secret because he wants to find a place in the world again, while LeChuck wants to find it because he thinks that it will arbitrarily get him what he wants. To LeChuck, Elaine and The Secret are only a means to a selfish end. This is why Guybrush gets to pass on the fantasy of Monkey Island to his son, while LeChuck is last seen either fighting Lila for The Secret in Hell forever or as a dilapidated animatronic doing the same motions over and over again.
In my mind, there was never a single doubt about what the secret was...
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FISH PEOPLE
So I've never played the Monkey Island games, but I *have* played the Danganronpa ones, and lemme tell you, this is a VERY familiar reaction from a subsection of fans about a very very similar thing lmao.
Love your videos man, keep up the good work!
Monkey Island 4 or 5 was unplayable and the whole game ground to halt with the coconut game.
I just like the idea of monkey island being a funny story that Guybrush tells his kids even if they are inconsistent stories and having fun doing so it’s about a park worker who got so sucked into his job and loved every moment of it he got lost into the fictional side
It reminds me a lot of (SPOILER)
Orion and The Dark. What starts as a goofy story about learning not to be scared of the dark turns into a father bonding with his daughter through stories, helping her overcome her own fears and creating something deeper and more meaningful together that is carried through to future generations.
Crazy that in the end b-mask revealed he was a themepark all along.
I was about to write a LONG essay post on this, but I think this'll sum up my thoughts a bit more succinctly:
If MI1 is about being on the ride, and MI2 is about getting off the ride and seeing the animatronics, Return is about giving back in to the fantasy and craftsmanship of the ride.
And given what Ron wrote and what his vision for what MI3 would've been was...yeah that seems about right.
Especially for a LucasArts title. Like any theme park ride, things change over time and new people take over. I don't really see this as Ron being pretentious or glibbing people over getting too meta; it's too genuine and too understanding of what came before to take it that way, at least for me personally. It feels less like Ron and David abandoned plot threads from other games in favor of telling those stories, more like they aren't their stories to tell. ...Whether or not that was executed well is another story, but regardless:
It's not their ride anymore. They'll always have final say because they made it, but it's not theirs anymore. But so long as the core of the ride stays the same, I'm kind of okay with that. Hell, if nothing else, the fact that you not only unintentionally lived what Ron was probably experiencing/writing himself over the years, but to have it pretty much confirmed by the man himself, if not emblematic of the point he was making, has to feel at least somewhat cathartic.
EDIT: Also these games are just super cozy at heart. That's really the core: so long as IT has fun, I'll have fun. Again, kinda like a real theme park lol
There was always something underlining about the series to me that I couldn't ever put the finger on it, specially when listening the main theme song. Then, watching your video, it clicked me in the outro: this cozy, comfortable feeling of fantasy and joy, this storytelling experience to share your thoughts -- both the wonder and the snarky -- shared among people. Sure, not everything is perfect, executed well or hit with everyone, but it is always a fun ride that stays with you and always brings new experiences in each revisit.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
This was the most artistically honest game I’ve ever seen. But I suppose the full picture can only be appreciated if you’re truly invested in the franchise as a whole and treat games as art rather than just products. The hate comments really made my blood boil lmao
Good job as always!
I cannot believe it took me a month to actually come around and watch this video.
I was really worried about Return because I didn't know where it was going to go, especially with the new art-style I did not anticipated, but I trusted Ron because I love all his games and I always felt he, and Dave and Tim, were the only ones to really get to the essence of Monkey Island and I sure wasn't disappointed. When I started the game the art-style just clicked to me. I don't no why I was ambivalent about it before, maybe it's just that I was surprise because I didn't anticipated this direction at all.
The endings feels like it is the only ending that can fit, brilliantly bringing together all the elements of this game and the previous games as well together.
To be honest, Revenge is still my favourite but I love this game, more than I thought I would, and I am actually not bothered by most of the things you mentioned you didn't like about the game. The only complaint is that the hard mod is not as hard as I wish it was.
The thing that upset me the most is how the terrible reaction to the game effected Ron and spoiled his enjoyment sharing it, and for me it also ruined the enjoyment of his blog with now comments turned off and it seems he rarely if ever post there again. I don't blame him at all, and how it effected him is much worse, but I really resent that this isle of joy I had on the internet will never be the same any more because some people don't know how to react to things they didn't like.
This comment is longer than I expected, but I have a lot of feelings about Monkey Island and this video caused them to resurface.
I thought all of this was exceedingly obvious that's what the game was about. The ending basically spells it out for you.
So did I!
@@BMask Whilst I wasn't a fan of the game as a whole (not just the ending) I appreciated that it tried to do something different but I felt like it was so heavy handed with the meta commentary that it just took me out of it
Seeing some of the comments you put in the video is a shame. I think there's such a good conversation to be had about this game but it always turns into an argument. Kudos on the vid I enjoyed it
Twin Peaks and Lynch.
Metal Gear and Kojima.
No More Heroes and SUDA51.
Monkey Island with Gilbert.
When the originals take charge of a project that was always their own, it always leads to a different feel and uniqueness. While they can often be imitated by others, they can never be duplicated and Monkey with Ron back in the chair, just has that feel of 1 and 2.
It really doesn't have the feel, other than all the references to the old games.
Also it can not be understated how much that last letter when you finish the game feels like the most warm hug ever to the player the fans. Comes out from the screen and touches our souls.
@@zenithquasar9623 I felt the other way around. I won't make a long essay to explain myself since I feel B-Mask did it amazingly not only in this video. So I will try to digest the strong points of what I feelt was a warming message to us loaded with affection and sincerity:
1- The game started as a fun idea that was really just trying (and achieved) to emulate adventure.
2- Success meant that the expectations grew bigger and bigger and people started fan theorizing and creating their own tall tales (a good storyteller knows this is an intended effect showing you got the attention you searched).
3- All is embraced, all is allowed, there is not an end to Gaybrush's adventures, but the curse long overdue chaining him to become a souless mockery of his starting point is lifted. He can now be free from its origin and pursue other treasures. After all. That was his original goal: to be a pirate and live the adventure. All this is also tangled with the realization of how time passed and its effect on every person, be them players or the creators.
I had a thought while watching this, about the nature of stories and life and all that...
My dad died in 2012 and growing up we (me my dad my sibling my mom) would play these games together, sitting around the computer calling out ideas.
My experiences with those stories from the first 4 games are also experiences with my dad. And no matter what comes next in this series, i will always replay those older ones (not 4, i did not like how you controlled guybrush) and remember sharing time with my dad. Playing return and having those precious games recontextualized as stories a dad was telling his kid really hit me in that regard. And any bew MI game, I will play it and will still akways be connected to my father because of thise games, the stories, the experiences, that led to the current game.
I don't have an elegant way to tie that to anything about the secret or metafiction or anything like that, but this just starting running through my mind.
Great analysis!
I feel this is very elegantly put- and certainly meaningful to what I think the game does best. Thank you for sharing.
While I appreciated what Ron and co were trying to say, I am one of those fans I guess who was more enthralled with the pirate theme escape fantasy with unique humour than the actual metanarrative behind all of this. The part that gave joy to me about these games was the fantasy, not the behind the scenes bits. And as an adult, already struggling with everything that's giving me joy being tinged with some undercurrent of sadness makes it harder to swallow this one ended this way. That's just too depressing for me. I want the fantasy, I want the safety and joy of the lie.
Here's the tough thing to hear- we can't change that it is what it is, and what it came from. Sometimes we have to be confronted with the truth- but the game asks, even knowing that, can you still accept the story? Can you still enjoy the journey you went on and the games you loved regardless of the secret finally being revealed? They want you to have the fantasy- they just want it to be *your* fantasy, rather than the one they initially thought of. It's going to be hard to swallow, but it's all the more worthwhile for doing so.
And that's why there is the ending where you say screw it to the meta stuff and embrace the fantasy.
@@CaveWaverider There should have been a clear choice before we opened that last door to town. If we really wanted to open the door and find out the secret but die in the process, or go back to live forever in monkey island with Elaine as a pirate (something like that)
A bit surprised you didn't bring up The Cave in any way. Another game by Ron that was also about characters chasing after something they longed for in hopes that they'll get what they want in the end-- something that felt reflective of what Guybrush was going through both in Return and Revenge(Return and Cave even end the same way). I know it wasn't exactly a perfect 10, but given it was an idea that Ron had long before Monkey Island, I felt it odd there wasn't any passing mention towards it.
Otherwise, another stellar video as always.
Thanks Fez! The main reason was because I felt the Cave kinda fumbled it's message by giving a binary good or bad ending, neither of which really felt like they matched with the actions of the actual stages which were also fairly predictable in their narratives. I love the idea of the game and some of the stuff it was doing otherwise, but I think thimbleweed, 2 and return better built to the point I wanted to make, and decided to make them the focus of the final section.
The idea of Guybrush being the floor inspector of a pirate themed amusement park puts the goofiest grin on my face. To me one of the strengths of adventure games is anyone can be an adventure game protagonist. One of the most iconic adventure game protagonists of all time being something so specific and silly just feels right.
Yes, the analysis of RtMI is nice.
But the reveal of where FISH PEOPLE came from makes this entire video.
Monkey Island is what you want it to be. It definitely means a lot of things for different people. I personally do view the whole theme park thing as one of Guybrush's flights of fancy (and he has plenty of them), and the secret being "I Found the Secret of Monkey Island and all I got was this stupid t-shirt" being a perfect "full circle" as it were. I much prefer to think of him and Elaine (and Guybrush Jr.) off exploring the high seas, rather than Guybrush just going off and selling fine leather jackets. It can ALSO be an allegory at the same time though.
Oh my god I completely agree JB Blanc would’ve been a PERFECT LeChuck replacement. I felt the same when I played this the first time
You touch on the point yourself, but what I loved most about the game was that it really includes Curse, Escape and Tales as legitimate entries in the series, whilst also giving us a pretty clear portrait of what Ron's third game was originally conceived as.
It would have been so easy to portray games 3, 4 and 5 as 'what ifs' that 'didn't really happen' and say "Here's what REALLY happened". In fact, I think I might like those games MORE in retrospect now that they sit more comfortably alongside Ron's entries.
I have to say I was initially a bit disappointed by the ending of Return, but have come around to it later on. I don't think it could had been done any other way.
One of your finest videos yet, B-Mask. Admittedly, my knowledge of the Monkey Island series really only extends to your videos and, funnily enough, Yahtzee's reviews. I saw his review of Return to Monkey Island and got the general gist of the ending being "There is no real secret to Monkey Island. Move on and focus on something else." While I didn't take it as anything mean-spirited by the creators of the game, I was kind of disappointed that the ending seemed to be a shrug and an, "Ah, well it didn't really matter." But, watching your video, I can appreciate the more wholesome and inspiring meaning of the ending. It's not a shrug that it didn't matter, it's a nodding acceptance that it all mattered in a way. The new Monkey Island games outside of Gilbert's original vision, as well as the interpretations of the players that played the games. It's not cynical, but a beautiful reflection on how stories change over time and that there is value to open interpretations to stories, rather than definite truths. What we bring to and read into a story is just as valuable as what the creators originally intended. Thank you for showing me that through such a sharply-written video. I may need to actually play through these games myself when I can.
The negative reactions to this game are kinda poetic. Some people just want to hold on to the fantasy and stay on the ride forever.
some people just don't like being played tricks on. Ron Gilbert was quoted stating that Monkey Island being a theme park was NOT its secret. This was a reason for the big buildup to a 'proper' MI3 by Ron, after all (not knocking Curse, it was a great game).
Yo B I am deeply appreciative of this video. I have a lot of thoughts that I would struggle to put into words, and a lot of it has already been put into better words by you or by Ron or by the No Clip documentary. I think my favorite line in this video is "how something that isn't real can still matter". I feel like that's truly the heart of a lot of the controversy behind this series, it can really suck to get to the end of the roller coaster and have to get off and admit that wasn't a "real" adventure. I think from the beginning that's what this has been about, but it's also been about storytelling and how you can have an idea but that doesn't mean every thought and decision you have will reflect that, because it's just people telling a story and people change and grow and contradict their own thoughts and beliefs. I hope a lot of people resonate with this video in the way I did. In the same way we resonate with the games in the series, whether or not they're "cannon" or made by Ron. I also strongly recommend the No Clip documentary on the series because it was really cool and impactful to have the entire story told with the people who started it all, glad it did come out before this so you could have that resource.
I'm so glad you liked it! I felt there were a lot of people out there who felt this way but weirdly didn't have a video of their own vocalising those thoughts. Really wanted to correct that, and excellent comments like this are still giving me more to think about, even after having made my own decisions on what I felt it was saying.
The real secret of monkey island -was the friends we made along the way.- is a franchise's eternal struggle with the average joe's media literacy.
I may have some conflicting feelings about the whole theme park angle, at least, how 2 originally presented it. But I'm not about to claim a weird superiority against it, or be about to say it came out of nowhere at all.
Sometimes a piece of media is best experienced with your eyes _actually_ open.
The series retconned it once, and Ron Gilbert also basically lied about it as well, but I think after all this time people should have been able to see through him on that point. I guess I've seen a lot of fans of various media cling obliviously to the creator's words and ignore the textual evidence in front of them and it's always a trap, though they don't always turn on the creator, sometimes the fans just keep finding new interpretations that keep letting the creator be right.
Another. B-MASK. BANGER.
I swear you're one of the most underrated youtubers.
I liked the video!
Sorry I don't have anything more clever to say aha
❤
B-Mask back at it again with the Monkey Island, this'll be good!
Glad to have yet another example of Yahtzee being way too cynical for his own good lmao
Yeah, his RMI review is the most headass take I can remember seeing from him in 16 years of watching lol. It's fine to hate the game or its story for a lot of reasons, but the idea that Gilbert and Grossman hate these characters and hate you for caring about them is objectively ridiculous
Last year I went to experience the entire Monkey Island series just to play this last one, I’ve always loved Lucasgilm games, and Monkey was one series I never played, so I went to change that, and oh boy, what a journey, it was one of my favorite experiences of all time, I had so much fun, the dialogs were so intelligent, they were so funny, but that ending, it felt so cool, like I was literally crying, cause this was my journey, like I truly remembered all this experiences, all the time that I played, and was one of the happiest moments I’ve had playing any video game, it felt personal, I really enjoyed what Ron Gilbert brought, cause it was like the Ultimate Monkey Island experience, I fell in love with the series, I even wrote to all the team to express my gratitude, cause it felt to me like ir was made with heart, that was for me the truly experience about the secret, cause the intention about the series was never to found the treasure, wherever that was, but also never let you with anything to hold on if you really wanted to know the secret, so it was brilliantly executed, this are marvelous games, and I’m glad to been alive just to experience this games over and over again.
PS: Look behind you! A tree headed monkey!!!!!
An excellent video essay! I was waiting so much for this video! I completely agree with you about the meaning of RTMI! I see it in the exactly same way! RtMI is a game about the art of storytelling. Sure, Ron explained the ending of MI2 and revealed his original Secret, but he also brought all the Monkey Island games closer together. Guybrush is an unreliable narrator, so he might have even spiced up his story by adding the Giant Monkey Robot and Herman Toothroot revelation. If the stories are fictional then Guybrush or Boybrush might have tweaked them in any different way - adding elements or discarding them later... But then again, we can't be completely sure if all of the Monkey Island stories were fictional or not. In the end, it's up to the player to decide how to interpret things... We have seen the Secret change in subsequent Monkey Island games, and RtMI says that it is perfectly ok for the stories to change over time. RtMI provides a certain closure for the fans, but at the same time, it leaves the door open for future creators with their own stories to be told... So yeah, thank you for the amazing video essay! You've just inspired me to replay RtMI again!
I absolutely loved the style of the game but I thought dialogue/writing wasn't as sharp as expected from Gilbert and Grosman. I wonder why that is. And, I never once wondered what the "Secret" was. I always thought that was part of the joke of the original. Never knew people were obsessed about an answer lol.
Yay, I've been waiting to hear your take on this game since it came out! Also, 28:20, wasn't expecting to see my own quote here!
I'm 49 now - played the original game when I was 15 when I played The Secret of Monkey Island, gathered around my A500 with my 3 best friends trying to work all the puzzles out - it took us quite a few weekends to get through it. By the time M2 came out I was 17, this time we gathered around my friends 386, and being a little bit older and wiser, it didn't take us so long to finish it - we were all quite puzzled by the ending at the time, and spent many hours discussing it and piecing together all the clues from both M1 and M2 - none of us hated it, we all thought it was clever and funny - but meta endings weren't very common in the early 90's - now every franchise seems to do it constantly. It was undoubtedly a game that in some way changed all 4 of us in the way only really good art can - and we would often talk about it years later.
I missed the following games - I had followed R+Ds advise from the end of M2 by that point and started talking to girls and lost interest in gaming.
In 2022 I heard about Return, and was mildly interested, but just too busy with life to play games - so it wasn't until early last month, realizing I was on the verge of burning out, I decided I needed to do something fun that I hadn't tried in years - and picked up this game.
I loved every minute of it - no doubt a big part of it was the nostalgia - but I honestly think it was very much up to the standards of Monkey 2. Agree I found the puzzles very easy even on the difficult level - I finished the game in 3 sessions, probably no more than 6 hours - not including replays to try out the different endings and dialogue options etc. - but it was genuinely fun and touching, and made me think - just like the first two games.
Great video about your journey with this series, Ron's journey, and well pretty much everyone's at this point. You're great at setting out the different perspectives and not excluding people from the story, but instead observing over the bigger picture. Amazing stuff.
Great video like last time. I wasnt happy with this title, I kinda knew I wouldnt from the trailers, but I appreciate that he got to make the game he wanted to after all these years. Its not like we didnt get another Monkey Island game instead, the IP was beyond dormant. So hey, good for him.
You actually blocked me on Twitter because we got into a debate about this game which is a shame lol Will keep watching your vids, youre one of the better active VEs on YT right now.
Thanks, I think part of that was that I realised it would be impossible to keep up a debate I knew I could never divulge the full thoughts on that I'd plan to get to in a video, with plans to do that as soon as possible. But then the days turned into weeks, weeks into months etc etc... however that debate went down, I hope this serves my feelings better.
@@BMask No hard feelings, you were def getting a lot of tweets on it at the time. Like I said the games still not for me but appreciate it more now thanks to this
Great vid, looking forward to the next comic one!
You get emotional answers from people that love the game as they remember it. A computer game (back then) never changed. Only our perception and context does. It can hurt to see them in a new light with new information one learns. Then there can be a feeling of loss and tragic. Some people can not accept their growth and wisdom, so they start fighting the change, fight try to fight the influence that changes them. It is tragic but reasonable. Right now i shed a few tears over something i have lost without the ability to name it.
Great video, thank you.
Those trivia cards get MEAN sometimes. My Mum and I kept failing them despite her being an expert on 1-3 and me being an expert on 3-5.
The lechuck form one actually stumped me for a while. I forgot about the one that was just a piece of dialogue!