Another good tempering method is to dip the cold spring in the oil then put it in a flame until the oil is jut on the point of completely burning off, remove from the heat and quench....test with a file..... depending on the steel is can take two or three treatments to get the temper just right (barely fileable)..... It's an old Blacksmith's/Engineer's trick and it works very well.... Ir's a quick and dirty version of the oily sawdust trick another commenter here suggested...and that works brilliantly too. Oh...a good source of steel for thin springs is old handsaw blades... the hefty ones I cut from truck springs that I have been given over the years.....Usually one can machine in the basics like knobs and retaining dowels etc. on the mill with a carbide cutter the slice off the parent material with a cutting wheel.. Just needs a file up to specs, heat and bend to contour, harden and temper.... piece of cake.... I get to make quite a few springs as many will not tackle the task..... Most coil springs can be cold wound from piano wire using the lathe to get the pitch right (or for really little ones by hand if you have a good 'eye'...... No need to heat treat these usually, the wire is very springy and stays that way after winding. You can re-temper if needed though, to push the rate up a bit...your lead pot is your friend for these... Give it a go y'all.... you'll get it wrong once or twice, as there's a bit of a knack in it, but it's good to know that those unobtainable springs can be easily made with relatively little effort, although a complex "V" spring with location dowels and a split stirrup hook on the business end does take a bit of shaping..... diamond burrs in your Dremel are your friends here. It's a good idea to have an anvil of some sort for the bigger springs as you must make sure that at the apex of the "V" the branches are in contact with each other.... it will break if you don't... Anvils are expensive so a bit of old railway line works a treat if you don't have an anvil. I have both and use the railway line quite often as it's a LOT more portable!. If you do much of this kind of work a small gas forge is great.... you can make a tiny one from scraps and a bit of ceramic wool insulation and power it with a propane torch. Your client might go a little pale at the price but your time and skill are valuable, and we can't compete on time with a huge machine that makes dozens every hour. A complex spring can take a couple of hours or more to get right and fit, and that's going to cost more than $20.... LOL... Gosh that turned out 5 times longer than I intended..... sorry... :-)
I'm the same way lol. Hey what I don't get is why dip it into oil after it's hot? Gear oil? I just don't get the difference between dipping it in oil vs water
@@jacksonterrance8833 Oil is a more forgiving quench media than water which is much harsher. Some steels prefer oil and some prefer water. If you aren't sure what type of steel you have oil is the safer bet. Some steel will crack if quenched in water.
The way I draw back springs after hardening is very simple and fool proof. Make a pile of sawdust on a brick or steel table pour enough motor oil in the sawdust to saturate it. Lay the spring in the pile and set it on fire. When the fire burns out and it cools down the spring will be perfect. You can test by clamping spring in the vise and measure set. Great video!!
Great demonstration! I've read the procedure many times, but there's nothing like watching it being done while it's explained step by step. Thanks for the great video!
I like the pot method of tempering. I temper a lot of small pieces, and that never occurred to me. I am a slow study, but I do learn, especially if there are pictures. Hehe!
You're very welcome, Balazs! By the way, I really enjoy your channel. You're making some of the best firearms content on UA-cam. Keep up the good work.
This falls right in with me making replacement springs for the Uberti model '73 44wcf, Uberti '73 cattleman 44wcf and the Pietta Remington New Model Army that I have. Thank you my friend for sharing this great video.
@@thecinnabar8442 it sure is my friend! With this younger generation up and coming and older generations passing that art is definitely dying off a little as each day passes. I have been trying for several years now to get the younger generation interested in these parts but it seems as though they would rather sit in the A/C and play video games. If we cannot get them interested and learn, when we "our generation" passes it will be gone
Outstanding video! The camera setup and sound quality made the tutorial easy to follow. The detailed approach really helped me understand the process. Thank you.
Hi Mark, the camp is a great idea. Beef, Winchester rifles and the compound fit perfectly together. I am sure that this concept will work. Greetings from Germany....
Hello Cinnabar, You Sir, truly know your subject. And thank you for demonstrating the process and equally the reasoning behind it. Love your shop. Thanks again......Doc
What a fantastic video. I'm in the process of learning how to make some very simple torsional springs and this was so helpful in understanding how quenching and tempering work.
I enjoyed that very much. I never thought about using a casting pot to do the heat treat. Great idea and affordable. The heat treat oven I have on my bucket list is well over $1000, but this would be great for tempering and ensure an even temperature throughout the piece. Thanks for sharing.
You bet. Glad it was helpful! I actually picked up a ceramic kiln at a yard sale for $100 and bought a digital controller for it. Now if I can just find the time to get it all wired in an operating. I plan to use it for a color case hardening kiln as well.
@@thecinnabar8442 Great find, not too many deal like that up in my neck of the woods. Everyone attaches "Vintage" or "Collectable" to the name of the items to justify adding another zero to the price. Always looking though.
Thanks. I've also got a rifle pulled from a house/shop fire. And the springs for a ZKW 465 are not just hard to find, they're impossible. So I have to get creative.
Mark, I suspect some my main springs in my Race SAAs have got fatigued. I thin them to run on a knife edge of lightness and still being able to bust the primers to do my trick shooting for my YT videos. After 1000-2000 or so fanning strokes I start getting inconsistent ignition. I replaced firing pins and checked protrusion but still have a problem so I think the springs just get enough fatigue to not quite have the power they did before. Can I re-tension them using this method? Do I heat treat and temper or just temper? Can I a casting pot with bullet lead in it at 600 degrees? Thanks TUCO
Good question. You could reharden and retemper your springs, but I think you'd be better off to replace them. SAA mainsprings are readily available and inexpensive. I typically only heat treat and temper springs that I have to make or when trying to save springs that aren't available elsewhere. Heat treating and tempering is a tough process to get just right. If you don't, spring life is very short.
To grind a uniform thickness, it can be ground on a surface grinder. Shaping springs is done by hand on a belt grinder and then polished with fine abrasive paper and polished on a buffing wheel.
I just bought a post 64 model 94 that looks like the trigger stop mechanism is missing or the spring is broken. Doing some homework if I need to make some parts. Thanks Cinnabar.
will this also work on a small coil torsion spring? i can not find a replacement spring for a project i'm working on,,, spring seems to be ok, just lost its spring tension thank you for posting this video, very informative
Yes, it should if the spring has been heated and lost it's temper. It's difficult to get an even heat on a coil spring and you have to be careful to not get it too hot and melt a portion of it. Many times a coil spring has just been over-compressed and is now too short. If that's the case, you may just need to stretch the spring back to its original length.
@@thecinnabar8442 thank you for getting back to me,,, i experimented and ""over torqued "" the spring and time will tell, but it seems to have plenty of spring now,,, i make custom knives, and make slip joints, and deal with the backspring in those, but have not been able to find info on the little coil springs,,, your post and reply is just what i needed
What a great video on this subject. Thank you! Is the WD40 only to prevent rust? Is it the best stuff you have found for this task or can other products work?
When removing parts from either caustic or niter bluing salts, WD40 is excellent for killing the bluing process and keeping the part from continuing to rust. It's not a good gun oil, though, so it needs to be cleaned off and a good gun oil applied afterward.
So with re heat treating regular springs as well its the same and the same as doing knives and stuff heat. Quench and then temper in an oven or something.... what temp do you temper at?
I got a sears 6c Canadian 22 rifle, I need a extractor that is made of spring steel, can you make them or where could I buy one, I try to make one but is not working out.
Great video.... I am need of heat treatment and tempering of a Sear spring for a Radom VIS. Is this something I can have you do..... do you offer this service sir ?
Any local gunsmith should be able to do this for you. If you can't find a local smith, send me a note at: cinnabargunworks@gmail.com and I'll help you out.
I don't on thin springs because they cool so fast. I quench immediately after I see the color I'm looking for. It's well past the magnetic or austenitic range.
It takes a trained eye to decipher the subtle differences in color when heating metals, but it's absolutely critical. If you're unable to distinguish those slight differences, this process probably isn't for you. The red colors start at 1,200 degrees and orange is at 1,700 and too hot for this process. No need to get emotionally triggered over it, just practice until you can see the differences as you heat the metal.
Another good tempering method is to dip the cold spring in the oil then put it in a flame until the oil is jut on the point of completely burning off, remove from the heat and quench....test with a file..... depending on the steel is can take two or three treatments to get the temper just right (barely fileable)..... It's an old Blacksmith's/Engineer's trick and it works very well.... Ir's a quick and dirty version of the oily sawdust trick another commenter here suggested...and that works brilliantly too.
Oh...a good source of steel for thin springs is old handsaw blades... the hefty ones I cut from truck springs that I have been given over the years.....Usually one can machine in the basics like knobs and retaining dowels etc. on the mill with a carbide cutter the slice off the parent material with a cutting wheel.. Just needs a file up to specs, heat and bend to contour, harden and temper.... piece of cake.... I get to make quite a few springs as many will not tackle the task..... Most coil springs can be cold wound from piano wire using the lathe to get the pitch right (or for really little ones by hand if you have a good 'eye'...... No need to heat treat these usually, the wire is very springy and stays that way after winding. You can re-temper if needed though, to push the rate up a bit...your lead pot is your friend for these...
Give it a go y'all.... you'll get it wrong once or twice, as there's a bit of a knack in it, but it's good to know that those unobtainable springs can be easily made with relatively little effort, although a complex "V" spring with location dowels and a split stirrup hook on the business end does take a bit of shaping..... diamond burrs in your Dremel are your friends here.
It's a good idea to have an anvil of some sort for the bigger springs as you must make sure that at the apex of the "V" the branches are in contact with each other.... it will break if you don't... Anvils are expensive so a bit of old railway line works a treat if you don't have an anvil. I have both and use the railway line quite often as it's a LOT more portable!. If you do much of this kind of work a small gas forge is great.... you can make a tiny one from scraps and a bit of ceramic wool insulation and power it with a propane torch.
Your client might go a little pale at the price but your time and skill are valuable, and we can't compete on time with a huge machine that makes dozens every hour.
A complex spring can take a couple of hours or more to get right and fit, and that's going to cost more than $20.... LOL...
Gosh that turned out 5 times longer than I intended..... sorry... :-)
Great tip! Thanks Kathryn
I'm the same way lol. Hey what I don't get is why dip it into oil after it's hot? Gear oil? I just don't get the difference between dipping it in oil vs water
@@jacksonterrance8833 Oil is a more forgiving quench media than water which is much harsher. Some steels prefer oil and some prefer water. If you aren't sure what type of steel you have oil is the safer bet. Some steel will crack if quenched in water.
The way I draw back springs after hardening is very simple and fool proof.
Make a pile of sawdust on a brick or steel table pour enough motor oil in the sawdust to saturate it. Lay the spring in the pile and set it on fire. When the fire burns out and it cools down the spring will be perfect. You can test by clamping spring in the vise and measure set.
Great video!!
Thanks for the tip, Darrell.
So that gives the spring it's elasticity and changes it from brittle to elastic??? And it's blur after?
❤ it.
Great demonstration! I've read the procedure many times, but there's nothing like watching it being done while it's explained step by step. Thanks for the great video!
You're very welcome! Glad it was helpful.
I like the pot method of tempering. I temper a lot of small pieces, and that never occurred to me. I am a slow study, but I do learn, especially if there are pictures. Hehe!
Needing an unobtainium spring for a 1972 Chevy vega drum brake adjuster, I watched your video.
What a great tutorial! Perfectly clear instruction and camera work. Thank you, thank you so much.
You're very welcome!
Thanks for the tutorial! I made an excellent leaf spring for a powder flask.
You're very welcome, Balazs! By the way, I really enjoy your channel. You're making some of the best firearms content on UA-cam. Keep up the good work.
This falls right in with me making replacement springs for the
Uberti model '73 44wcf,
Uberti '73 cattleman 44wcf and the Pietta Remington New Model Army that I have.
Thank you my friend for sharing this great video.
Thanks Rodney! Good luck with the spring making. It's becoming something of a lost art.
@@thecinnabar8442 it sure is my friend!
With this younger generation up and coming and older generations passing that art is definitely dying off a little as each day passes.
I have been trying for several years now to get the younger generation interested in these parts but it seems as though they would rather sit in the A/C and play video games. If we cannot get them interested and learn, when we "our generation" passes it will be gone
Outstanding video! The camera setup and sound quality made the tutorial easy to follow. The detailed approach really helped me understand the process. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.
Got a couple73s with set triggers. Wish my 76s had set triggers. They are so nice when they are right.
Thank you! It’s always great to see a man who is a master manipulator of metals. Great show, Pard.
You're welcome!
Loving your channel more with each video. You sir absolutely have a wealth of knowledge that makes me a little envious!
Thanks a bunch, Chris!
Another great video with need to know information about springs even a gunsmith let slide. Had to pull out a parts box to look for that spring.
Thanks Frank!
Hi Mark, the camp is a great idea.
Beef, Winchester rifles and the compound fit perfectly together.
I am sure that this concept will work.
Greetings from Germany....
Thanks for your feedback, Matthias!
Hello Cinnabar, You Sir, truly know your subject. And thank you for demonstrating the process and equally the reasoning behind it. Love your shop. Thanks again......Doc
You're very welcome, Doc! I'm grad it was helpful.
Great video, that’s going to come in very handy, thank you very much. Take care.
Thanks, Ken. Glad you found it helpful
God Bless you Sir for Sharing your Skill. Excellent Presentation.
What a fantastic video. I'm in the process of learning how to make some very simple torsional springs and this was so helpful in understanding how quenching and tempering work.
Glad it was helpful!
Very well done, I have some spring work to do on a Flint lock !
Glad it helped. Good luck with your project!
I enjoyed that very much. I never thought about using a casting pot to do the heat treat. Great idea and affordable. The heat treat oven I have on my bucket list is well over $1000, but this would be great for tempering and ensure an even temperature throughout the piece. Thanks for sharing.
You bet. Glad it was helpful! I actually picked up a ceramic kiln at a yard sale for $100 and bought a digital controller for it. Now if I can just find the time to get it all wired in an operating. I plan to use it for a color case hardening kiln as well.
@@thecinnabar8442 Great find, not too many deal like that up in my neck of the woods. Everyone attaches "Vintage" or "Collectable" to the name of the items to justify adding another zero to the price. Always looking though.
Excellent video as always Mark. Appreciated
Thanks Rick!
Well done Mark, interesting stuff.
Thanks Mark!
Really enjoyed this Mark. Great stuff. Keep it coming.
Thanks, will do!
great presentation, thank you
You're very welcome!
Thanks. I've also got a rifle pulled from a house/shop fire. And the springs for a ZKW 465 are not just hard to find, they're impossible. So I have to get creative.
Great tutorial. Thanks a lot sir!
very good knowledge to have. good video
interesting and well presented. Thankyou
You're very welcome!
We need shop classes again!
Mark,
I suspect some my main springs in my Race SAAs have got fatigued. I thin them to run on a knife edge of lightness and still being able to bust the primers to do my trick shooting for my YT videos. After 1000-2000 or so fanning strokes I start getting inconsistent ignition. I replaced firing pins and checked protrusion but still have a problem so I think the springs just get enough fatigue to not quite have the power they did before. Can I re-tension them using this method? Do I heat treat and temper or just temper? Can I a casting pot with bullet lead in it at 600 degrees? Thanks TUCO
Good question. You could reharden and retemper your springs, but I think you'd be better off to replace them. SAA mainsprings are readily available and inexpensive. I typically only heat treat and temper springs that I have to make or when trying to save springs that aren't available elsewhere. Heat treating and tempering is a tough process to get just right. If you don't, spring life is very short.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thanks for the answer. 🙂
Thanks sir I want to know how surface grinding is done to flat sheet of spring steel
To grind a uniform thickness, it can be ground on a surface grinder. Shaping springs is done by hand on a belt grinder and then polished with fine abrasive paper and polished on a buffing wheel.
I just bought a post 64 model 94 that looks like the trigger stop mechanism is missing or the spring is broken. Doing some homework if I need to make some parts. Thanks Cinnabar.
will this also work on a small coil torsion spring? i can not find a replacement spring for
a project i'm working on,,, spring seems to be ok, just lost its spring tension
thank you for posting this video, very informative
Yes, it should if the spring has been heated and lost it's temper. It's difficult to get an even heat on a coil spring and you have to be careful to not get it too hot and melt a portion of it. Many times a coil spring has just been over-compressed and is now too short. If that's the case, you may just need to stretch the spring back to its original length.
@@thecinnabar8442 thank you for getting back to me,,, i experimented and ""over torqued "" the spring and time will tell, but it seems to have plenty of spring now,,, i make custom knives, and make slip joints, and deal with the backspring in those, but have not been able to find info on the little coil springs,,, your post and reply is just what i needed
Thank you sir I learned a lot form that tutorial , I have one question did you quench in water or oil ?
You're very welcome, Reg! I quenched in ATF. Most spring steel used in old guns is oil hardening.
Thanks
What a great video on this subject. Thank you!
Is the WD40 only to prevent rust? Is it the best stuff you have found for this task or can other products work?
When removing parts from either caustic or niter bluing salts, WD40 is excellent for killing the bluing process and keeping the part from continuing to rust. It's not a good gun oil, though, so it needs to be cleaned off and a good gun oil applied afterward.
@@thecinnabar8442 Understood, thanks very much for the reply!
So with re heat treating regular springs as well its the same and the same as doing knives and stuff heat. Quench and then temper in an oven or something.... what temp do you temper at?
As a general rule, flat springs should be tempered to about 600-650 degrees F. If you're flame tempering to a color, shoot for a dark blue.
thank you sir
What fluids do you dip the metal in right after heating to make it hard
Water or oil...oil is safer because some types of steel will crack if water quenched.
I got a sears 6c Canadian 22 rifle, I need a extractor that is made of spring steel, can you make them or where could I buy one, I try to make one but is not working out.
Hi, what do you have in the casting pot (aside from the salt)? It is hydronic fluid?
I have nitre bluing salts in the casting pot for tempering and ATF in the can for quenching.
You used the bluing salts in a casting pot with lead as your heat medium?
Just the salts. Lead can be used as the medium if you prefer.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thanks
Great video.... I am need of heat treatment and tempering of a Sear spring for a Radom VIS. Is this something I can have you do..... do you offer this service sir ?
Any local gunsmith should be able to do this for you. If you can't find a local smith, send me a note at: cinnabargunworks@gmail.com and I'll help you out.
I have a 1915 model Winchester 22 pump action.can you retemper my spring and what would you charge for the service
Ordering a replacement spring would be a much better option.
Do you try quenching readiness with magnet?
I don't on thin springs because they cool so fast. I quench immediately after I see the color I'm looking for. It's well past the magnetic or austenitic range.
Gi can't afford to buy anything to do it but I might can afford you to fix my problem
I temper springs to blue colour
Then you're doing it right.
You need to give it a little O2 B4 you light it, to avoid all those black smokey things that you'll wind up breathing in........Z
Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure to keep that in mind. 😉
Y gloves on your hands and in pocket
Ha! I nearly always carry work gloves in my pocket, but slip on leather gloves when welding or heat treating. Thanks for watching
Good video, but it drives me mad, everyone says "Cherry red" ... have they never seen a cherry?
That colour is more a orange.
It takes a trained eye to decipher the subtle differences in color when heating metals, but it's absolutely critical. If you're unable to distinguish those slight differences, this process probably isn't for you. The red colors start at 1,200 degrees and orange is at 1,700 and too hot for this process. No need to get emotionally triggered over it, just practice until you can see the differences as you heat the metal.
Thanks