What do you think of this way of ending my videos? The point is to lay out an idea of how a religious opposition might dispute the arguments presented in this video. My hope is that it will make people reflect on the religious point of view and thereby make way for a more constructive and honest discussion.
Personally, I find it of no more instructive value than the normal apologetic nonsense that we'd get from an evangelical pastor. Sam already dismissed these responses out of hand so you cheapen his presentation by adding this attempted equivocation as an ending. It's nothing more than a word salad and fails to give a meaningful answer to the need for evidence. The ending changed my up-vote to a down-vote and I will remove this selection from my playlist directly.
Man made man, the truth is here now. That does not mean that God is not real, because he is , I'm going to explain. The most refreshing thing is never having to believe again. When you say you believe, you are simply saying, I don't know! I had the phenomena happen to me, that's how I know, and I am trying to come forward. I know all of existence, I know exactly what God is. Mankind is absolutely extinct. The beginning of time and the end of time has to be simultaneous. The truth is amazing!!! Ps I know the secret of the number 3, and a lot more. Noah, Now Our Answer is Here???
i think it is civilized, logical, intelligent.... certainly better than anything Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens and the like usually offer up. something i very rarely see from an online atheists and many IRL.
Why doesn't Sam Harris look to JEHOVAH 16 All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,+ for disciplining in righteousness,+ 17
@@JaguarBST Nonsense! No christian blames a Doctor who worked hard to save lives. Unless of what recently happend a chirurgeon removed the Wrong Organ, so the patient died.No matter Christian or Atheist, Yes that was the Doctor. It is good to know that our life is not in the hands of doctors, but of God our Lord's Hands
People who argue suffering is good are always people who are not suffering. To them suffering is an abstraction. Ask a person who lost their entire family in an earthquake if suffering is good.
Exactly. In the Genesis story, you should read it like this. God is mankinds creation. But mankind is corrupted, therefore God is too. That's why the Devil is in the details. And the greatest trick the Devil played on mankind, was convincing mankind that He is God, He is real, and that He needs to be worshipped as such.
@@mastpg Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Say, "Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector." And upon Allah let the believers rely. ....Glorious Qur'an....
@@fionagregory9147 😆😁"Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful....Say, "Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector." And upon Allah let the believers rely." Qur'an
The counter arguments at the end are ones that I have heard all my life and simply guess at the nature of god’s “mysteriousness.” This reflects the inability to reason by people who have been indoctrinated to be blind and unthinking.
The counterpoints don’t require a God. Anything we don’t understand is mysterious. If the “plan” is greater than we can comprehend then how are different religions so sure their god is both the right god and with the right plan? Plus If god grants us the freedom of choice then the right not to believe in god is also an acceptable outcome. Not only that but it’s probably the safest given the afterlife threat of making the wrong choice is. Almost a reversal of Pascals Wager. Frankly it’s disappointing how fearful people are of being in control of their own morals and how big the universe is.
Yes, there's also the small problem that these counterarguments invoke a Begging the Question fallacy in which the arguments depend on the existence of a god for which we have no evidence. But these counterarguments nevertheless feel somewhat persuasive. That's fine, but let's notice that they would be equally persuasive with the god premise and the faith premise removed. These premises are unhelpful to our investigation of the human condition, and they bring unwarranted supernatural baggage with them. We inevitably have to navigate the difficulties of suffering and injustice, of not having answers to existential questions, of the imperfect nature of ourselves and perhaps of reality as a whole. We can't do that by invoking authoritarianism. That's not taking responsibility for our own navigation but trading it away for magical thinking.
@@starfishsystemswell put. These counter arguments are just desperate tools used by people have been indoctrinated and have been told similar things repeatedly. They have become the security blanket for those that at some point or another begin to question their own religion. It’s really a byproduct of cognitive dissonance, and probably a very difficult one to overcome. Sadly, religious dogma has suppressed social progress in general. The fact that it’s still prevails to this day is a testament to the power of religious indoctrination.
The comments at the end are what Sam Harris says at the end of his speech. That when something bad happens then god is mysterious. It’s comical to see the weak arguments hypachristians have.
If a god existed, Why would a god care so much about peoples wishes and wants on a planet the size of an electron compared to the vastness of the Universe?
Would he want for anything? Does he have a brain reward system and frontal cortext such as humans have which would drive him to be social and make plans for the future and to be driven to do anything? Just more questions from questions. Begging the question. He simply doesn't exist.
Religion is like a 4;year old child that says they have an invisible friend. As the child ages, so does the invisible friend. It becomes more complex and stories are added to it to keep the maturing child engaged in the story. Over generations, those stories become accepted as true or factual when in reality theyre the invisible froend at its core.
Just remember, the Jews, who created the Torah (Old Testament) throughout history generally considered the stories as allegory. That may mean that they were not historically "factual" but the message they gave could still be "True." Literalism, that all of the Bible is factual, is a fairly recent creation. It took hold in America about 150ish years ago. It is the result of an authoritarian mindset.
Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace, 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics, 62% in Medicine, 54% in Economics and 49.5% of all Literature awards.
One very disturbing aspect of religion is the glee that (some) believers show at how non-believers are going to suffer eternally once they die. It reminds me of the movie Gladiator when the crowd cheers at the "sport" of people being slaughtered. Charming.
@jonnawyatt Making claims is so easy. It are Christians who provide most help and support in case of disasters. The Christian church was started immediately after the day of Pentecost Acts 2 in the year 30 - 31 AD A.D. 64. On July 19 that year a great fire engulfed much of Rome; Nero, managed to deflect blame to the Christians. Many Christians (perhaps including Peter) were seized, tortured, and done to death in the arena.
The counterpoints at the end were so destroyed by Sam that it was hard to not smile while listening. As long as religious people pass on their beliefs to their children, this form of mental illness will continue.
@@maxweinbach3996i don't know why this is so difficult for you. teaching anything other than truth and verifiable fact is destructive. like teaching that the myths you grew up with are true is destructive.
@@richardhedd3080 However, teaching verifiable truth doesn't translate to good. You need a balance with faith and hope. If not, then we can quickly draw conclusions about other people (and yourself) which can lead to bad outcomes.
I find the argument of the ignorance of God's way to operate really inconsistent. For one part, believers claim that we cannot know God's reasons for suffering, but then they claim to know what God wants and His desire on a variety of moral topics. They have no compelling proof that God is loving, but it is obvious that they start with the premise that He is and then adapt their explanations to that statement.
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Say, "Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector." And upon Allah let the believers rely.
@@EAGLE29-TIME I don't understand a single word, mate. What is a soul? What is Allah? How can we realiably know these exist? I don't want to be mistaken so I remain agnostic in topics of the universe we don't know yet. So should everyone.
@@nightmike7655 😀 If you believe you actually exists, you are real and the world is real, if you believe that then you cannot help but also believe that us and the worlds are all dependent entities. If it's dependent and made up of other incalculable contingent configurations (matter, space-time, forces of gravity....) then only a fool will say that dependent entities are not dependent on an independent agency i.e. your dependent existance is dependent upon your respected father, who is totally independent of you. Can we find him, inside the chambers of your heart, the alveoli in your lungs or in the nephrons in your kidneys?
@@EAGLE29-TIME First, as Feynman said, the easiest person to fool is yourself, so we shouldn't base reality on internal feelings. Second, I am myself contingent on the beginning of our universe. Thing is, if the Big Bang originated from a singularity, then the universe is not contingent on its past states. If it didn't originate from a singularity, it is self-contained and not dependant on anything else. You seem to believe to know the answer to the origin and nature of the universe, when you, or anyone else on Earth, clearly do not.
My favorite argument for the Bible is Christians claiming that slavery and misogyny and genocide were ok because the “times were different back then”. It is so sad and depressing to hear an adult say that with no comprehension of how illogical and incompatible that is with the belief of an all powerful and knowing deity. It is the apex of ignorance
@@maxweinbach3996 why do you keep going underneath comments trying to change the minds of unbelievers? You literally clicked on a video for atheists looking for ppl who don’t believe. STOP forcing your beliefs on OTHERS. Let us be FREE in peace man.
@@JamayaAmeliaMiaSolanaTob-pi9vn You can do whatever you want. Be an idiot if you want too. I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I didn't communicate my beliefs. Read, lol.
@@maxweinbach3996Calling the dude an idiot was uncalled for. Also Ephesians 6:5-8 and Colossians 3:22 are outright orders for slaves to obey their masters as sincerely as they obey the Lord. Misogyny please. Anyone who has read a total of one chapter in the bible can tell you it puts men above women. Women aren't allowed in pulpits, Women aren't allowed on altars, Women should be submissive and obey their husbands as they would God. Women can't do this or that. Pick up the scriptures and read them.
@@maxweinbach3996 one name. Joshua. Genocide right there. Specifically ordered by God. They weren't just supposed to go conquer a people and steal their land. Noooooo God ordered them to destroy and destroy completely. Hey want another example I'll give you two where God does the killing himself. First, you know that little world wide flood where only Noah and his family survived. Oh oh I remember when God sent his spirit during Passover to kill an entire nations first born sons.
If a god exists, and thats a big IF for me, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t care what you do with your private parts and who with. Nor does it care what time you turn the lights on or off or on what days. Nor does it care what you do and don’t eat. Nor does it care who’s president or who you voted for
Everything in this world is right there and couldn’t be more clear. We are no different than the trees or squirrels. We grew out of this world, webelong here, we will live and we will die. Our bodies will compost the earth, just like the tree and its leaves. That is it. We have created the concept of “me”, but I do not exist any more than if you started naming the trees in the forest. If you need “meaning”, then give it meaning if you choose, but that is personal and not applicable to another.
@rboland2173 If a god was mysterious and beyond human understanding. Then how do we know about all these different gods throughout history? Obviously someone can understand and if someone can understand. Then it's not beyond human understanding. Religion is the cancer of humanity!
@@maxweinbach3996 is gravity your god? The Egyptians Et al thought that the sun was a god; their thought didn’t create the sun but their thought definitely created a god out of it. Throw me a syllogism that gets at your rhetorical interrogative and I might listen more…
@@BOARMoto-bm2mh did I allude to that? “God” is a personal idea. Some believe God is a creator. Stars are responsible for almost all of the elements in the universe, from carbon in our backbone and the oxygen we breathe. Stars like the sun are “creators” so there’s no issue of a group of people want to warship it.
@@maxweinbach3996 How liberating the knowledge that one doesn’t ever own anything; that all conditioned things are impermanent; that there is no other world; that there’s not even this one.
- Look at all the good things here and there. Don't you understand they're good and a gift that might be from a god? + But if you look here or there you'll see cruelty and unfairness. - Oh, it's because god is mysterious 🤦🏻♂️
Noooo, don't look at these parts, look over there where your religious auntie prayed to find her car keys and got them back! Ignore the starving children. God will take care of it 😇 (This is sarcasm, not to be taken seriously)
@@mizuki3183 It's very difficult to take anything about religion seriously. It's like Flat Earth or YE Creationism, physics and philosophy for 3 year-olds
The suffering in the world is better explained by that we live in a natural environment where there is no god than if there is one. We humans are responsible for making the world a better place. No amount of prayer will stop suffering
@@TimothyWhimp That's the thing. We never will know what "God' is. However, that might be a good thing as discovering what we don't know is what we as humans do. The more we try to (and actually find) find answers, the more questions arise. With that, humans are unique that we believe and have faith, we make assumptions and theories. Perhaps that is critical factor to our success?
Belief in religion comes from the fear of death. The thought that at the end of life there is nothing else drives some to accept faith without evidence. Very sad really.
do you take meds and going to the hospital when you're sick? taking meds and going to the hospital are obvious attempts to Delay death you're obviously scared of death, by default
do you have descendants? by manufacturing descendants, people can keep their genetic information running in life that's another attempt to Delay death, the death of your genetic information everybody is scared of death by default actions speak louder than words
existence is rough. we are constantly dealing with loss, disease, conflict over finances/territory, poverty, starvation and a myriad of other issues....do we REALLY need to add IMAGINARY ones to our plate????
One day, long after I'm gone, my hope is that all religions, with beliefs of supernatural beings in charge of everything, will have withered away with the understanding that the notion of god or gods are simply figments of man's imagination and therefore are just fantasies.
Idk, I think the worst of religion is that it makes people force their views on others. as long as people just don't force their beliefs on others, as long as people just mind their own business, the world will be fine. Religion may be a bunch of nonsense, but as long as it helps people live good, content lives, and drives them to contribute to society in positive ways, religion isn't all simply terrible. i wish there was less religion but i also acknolwedge that religion is important in society. plus im a huge fan of mythology from different ancient cultures lol.
@@dbuc4671 The problem with this attitude is that rarely can the religious stop themselves from trying to "save" you and anyone else who doesn't believe as they do. They also tend to segregate themselves and their families from those who have different beliefs and teach their children those people are evil. I'm fine with them if they don't do that.
You remove religion and another form will take its place. Perhaps religion > Nationalism, racism. What brings groups together is exactly what breaks "man" apart.
Desperate Abrahamic religionists, when they go into their theodices, like at the end of the video, are like ostriches that dig a hole to hide their dangers, except here, they dig frenzily deeper yet, when confronted with reality. Classic.
The end of this video is the same bullshit that was handed to me by the school sisters of Notre Dame, and the Catholic Church. that was until I reached the age of reason. Now I am an atheist. I agree with the statement “Man came into existence, and man created gods.” 😺
Since you're so proud to be an atheist, I dare you to play the ouija board. By yourself, in a cemetery in the dead of night (that's 3am), and break all its rules. When you experience the supernatural, I hope you have the balls not to ask for help. In fact, I want to see you at the precipice of expiry to see if you still hold your beliefs firmly.
Using most religious/spiritual texts as soft allegorical/moral guides to living a "good" life is quite reasonable. Allowing your mind and agency to be taken over by dogma, doctrine and external guidance is evil. Nothing, in the end, is sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Too many people give that up willingly.
Agree! We are not animals. If all morality is based in religious dogma and only that. Then what a wonderful job it has done. Millions have been killed in the name of one god or another! Here's another one, be fruitfull and multiply! Now that there are over eight billion people on the planet. And birth control is still taboo, in most of societies. And religious doctrine. We are fruitfully sucking or planet dry. But, there's the mystery of gods plan. Crazy!
It depends on what kind of God you're referring to. This argument works only for God with certain attributes ascribed to it, which I'll get to eventually. With the exception of this specific kind of God, nothing in your argument indicates whether God exists or not. If God exists, it's logically possible for there to be any number of religions and gods created by mankind, even none at all. If God doesn't exist, it's also logically possible for there to be any number of religions and gods created by mankind, even none at all. There's no way to differentiate between gods existing and not existing merely on the basis of there being many religions and gods worshipped throughout the world. The only conclusion we can rationally arrive at is that there are many religions. Unless, however, there was God that wants us to know it exists, wants us to know what it's like, what it wants and so on, only then we would expect there to be just one, universal religion and that God's top priority would be to prove its existence to everyone and to communicate all the necessary information to us clearly, with no room for misunderstandings whatsoever. While this isn't what we observe in reality, it doesn't mean that some God cannot exist. We can, of course, determine which gods do exist and which ones do not, by listening to the claims of religious about certain characteristics of God they propose and see whether those characteristics are consistent with what we would expect to objectively observe in reality had this or that God existed. For example, Christians in general claim that their God wants to have a relationship with all of us. If that was true, we would expect this God to be like the one I described in previous paragraph, which isn't what we observe in reality and thus our expectations aren't met.
Personally, I think that if you want to bring up the opposing point of view, then it is best done by the person Sam is debating, for instance. I find that the change in format of the video, as well as the hypothetical response to be uncomfortable to follow. I thought the rest of the video was great. You carefully rated and edited some of Sam’s best points, and I applaud you. Keep it up!
I have been an Atheist as long as I can remember, but, as I am now old with Boot Hill writ large on my horizon, I thought of giving Religion another look. But when I looked back over my life and realized , that all the best folk that I had known, were either Atheists or kept there faith close to there chests and the worst, meanest bastards etc, were church goers and the most devout that I knew , was the worst of them all. So I closed the Bible and put it back on the shelf, along with the Brothers Grimm, Hans Cristian Anderson and Walt Disney etc. where it belongs.
The thing is, like Sam very aptly put it, "You can't believe in religion simply because of its utility". There are umpteen number of religions that are way better at morals than the Abrahamic three. Human goodness is innate, and we all can derive a framework and compile it as a religion. But, we are yet to prove the supernatural. God's will, God's plan, God this, God that. It's all simple unprovable. So, before talking about these humongous subjects about some big plan, we are yet to prove the existence of a planner i.e. God.
That's why modern religions are classified by anthropologists as 'salvation religions'. Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists accept and are indoctrinated to think there is something wrong with you and your natural state...but don't worry, believe in their dogma and you can be 'saved'. Cutting edge theological philosophy from 2000 years ago. Quite insidious.
@@moonshoes11 Are you asking why we use words to communicate? "God" is a word. Words are made up. Our understanding, just like words can change with time. Historically, "God" is situated into something we can't explain. We can't explain how the universe works, we understand that certain aspects obey certain laws, but we don't know why. "God" fills that gap. God is something that we will never know no matter how long we exist, no matter how much brain power goes into figuring out how things work.
No, I will not listen to another religious take on this. Religion has had long enough. I'm just thankful that I came across a debate a few years ago between some Islamic religious spokespersons or whatever they were, and Dr Lawrence Kraus.. It changed my life. Now I'm way into the cosmos and the micro. And I understand my close relationship with other living things on this earth. Understanding your origin is a pretty important thing to do as a human, my primate, you should give truth a shot at molding your life. You'll feel a hell of a lot better without all 'that'
I didn't believe in God when I tuned in to this, and now having heard it I can't believe that anyone does, if only we could end all religions what a far more peaceful world we would have. Trouble is the believers just will not be swayed they just can't listen to reason and that's the normal ones, on top of this we have the radicals, millions of them, I sadly do believe that we are all doomed but for different reasons.
So where are the people who died thousands of years ago? Are they in heaven and have to be resurrected again? Are they in hell and have to be resurrected again? What for? Have they not been judged already?
Great video. Sam Harris makes excellent points. To Sam Harris's point about god allowing those children to suffer and die before the age of five. And no god does not work in mysterious ways. I have a personal experience with that point in mind. I was born into a Christian home to missionary parents. I went to a private Christian school for 11 years. My father is an ordained minister. I have older siblings and one young sibling all of which are deeply religious, and the oldest sibling is part of a church that borders on cult-like thinking and belief. I do not believe in a god. I am an atheist. I have many reasons why I am an atheist but I will share one for now. I was born with a rare congenital anomaly in my spinal column and spinal cord. I developed this condition in my mother's womb. This congenital anomaly caused me so much pain and discomfort in my early 30s that major spinal surgery was required. My spinal cord was tethered at the base of my neck and tethered right at the small of my back. When I bent over my spinal and cord had no give or no ability to stretch with my movements. In the middle of my back the spinal cord was split in two by a bone-like bar, and in that space that was split grew a cyst the size of a baseball. The doctors tried to fix everything and unfortunately now I am slowly and painfully losing my ability to walk. My back is completely numb, my legs from my thighs down are painfully numb, think of when your foot or hand falls asleep and the painful pins a needles you feel as the blood rushes back to your foot or hand. Times that by 10 and that's my every day, every hour, minute, and second. It SUCKS! I've had the religious people in my life say there's a reason for your condition. "God works in mysterious ways." Then I have non-believers who ask if I'm mad at my situation. Am I mad at god. To the religious people I say what is mysterious about what God gave me in my mother's womb? Am I mad at my situation or mad at god? I'm not mad at my situation? No. Am I mad at god? No, because gods don't exist. This was a mutation that happen in my mother's womb. I've accepted my condition and I make sure I make each day worth it with my wife and kids. I don't take my ability to walk for granted because I know it will be lost at some point. My goal is to walk my daughter down the isle when she gets married. Brainwashing and indoctrination are extremely dangerous things that transpire in religion, especially Christianity. I ask people, believers, and non-believers, to read the bible cover to cover. Dig into the research of Christianity from all sides, read books from both sides, watch debates, and most importantly, QUESTION EVERYTHING!
Well, we don't have freewill for a starter. Not only do we not have it, I can't imagine a way in which we could. Everything depends upon something else until you end up back at the big bang. Why did you order Italian instead of Thai? Because of the big bang and the initial conditions that allowed for it. Although true, it seems to explain nothing yet it does. Without that, not this.
@@stevie68ahow can you say that ''all of this'' has always existed when we know for a matter of fact that the universe is expanding, so if you go back far enough you will always reach a point time where all of the matter in the universe is constrained to one singular point, thus the singularity and the big bang. Do you just not believe in science?
@radioactive1382 Big Bang is the beginning of our scientific understanding of the universe, not necessarily the actual beginning of the universe. "One of the common misconceptions about the Big Bang model is that it fully explains the origin of the universe. However, the Big Bang model does not describe how energy, time, and space were caused, but rather it describes the emergence of the present universe from an ultra-dense and high-temperature initial state." -Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.
Counter argument 1: Effectively "God works in mysterious ways..." Counter argument 2: A combination of "it's our fault, because of sin" and "god isn't powerful enough to just make good things. Can't be brave without fear, can't be happy without sadness..." "You just don't see their good side. Yes, they can be a bit violent sometimes and sometimes it's scary to go home, but they can be really lovely. Can't think of many examples, or any really, but I'm sure they love me." - A theist in a toxic relationship with their imaginary master.
The final two arguments at the end aren't necessary. This is not a news posting; you are not required to present opposing views. They cheapen the whole vid, and should be removed.
Most believers are afraid to really ask the questions and more afraid to be honest and answer! When I finally did it all became clear to me …either god doesnt care or he is not real!! Even the most wicked person would not wish such tragedy on any person yet alone your “child” in whom u love!! Is there anything YOUR child (who u love) could do for u to sentence them to be tortured forever!!!??? Once I honestly answered that …I was FREE 🙌🏾
If the witch doctor decides to perform a raindance after a long period of drought and it's starting to rain, the mythe stays alive. If not, the gods decided otherwise and the myth stays alive.
In regards to your final arguments. Harris addressed very clearly the incongruity of an all loving god and unbelievable human suffering and death. In regards to free will and suffering Harris also addressed this. If god is omnipotent then he already knows the suffering he allows. So god is either impotent or evil. That does not work with omnipotence and all love. A god who is all love would simply create an earth where humans live in paradise with no suffering. That’s 2 strikes. Try again.
Well said Sam Harris. Finally someone articulate enough, with a public platform, to state such a necessary truth (in which humanity desperately needs to hear) regarding the whole concept of religion in these modern times.
As to your counterpoints at the end of the video, if gods purposes are unknowable but good, what is the purpose of praying? Is it merely try to talk god out of taking this course or that, thinking you know better than god?
Man evolved with other mammals. We are all animal. Native Americans understood this and addressed other animals such as brother bear, brother horse, and so on. We are no better than animals and in some cases no smarter.
After a Christian upbringing I began to lose any faith in religion when I began to realise the intolerance that one religion has for another and that your choice is dependant upon where you were born. I now fail to see how any intelligent person can believe in any God. I appreciate how Sam harris, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have helped me to realise the truth.
I agree with you. I can’t understand how highly educated people can have these religious beliefs on ancient books. Justice’s on the US Supreme Court are going to interpret laws and make decisions based on their religious beliefs! How ridiculous is that?
Most people of faith deal with depression. They can pray for something better but deep psychological pain through their perspective seems strange when these people tend to know that death would spiritually put you in eternal happiness. Yet you can’t die by your own hand so you have to suffer through and wait it out. Or focus on being the best and happiest you can now. Because this life is the only one we get. And experiencing happiness through finite life is blissful.
Religious people are able to reconcile whatever they like, as they rely on magic and mysteriousness to explain anything difficult or contradictory. That is why debating religious people is a waste of time.
I reckon religion is based on fear and selfishness, the egomania of the religious is based on not wanting to cease to exist on death, an unspoken assumption that their boring, self-centred lives will continue drearily forever and ever - and it's somehow just for that to be so because of their grovelling to their chosen deity. Bonkers.
The ending counter-arguments tells me that god simply uses people as pawns; and that death and suffering is merely a tool to help others grow “spiritually”. It’s a slap in the face to tell someone hurting that it’s “god’s will”.
I get the reason for adding the ending as responses from the believer's side of things, but it holds no water. The various reasons given here why a believer will accept suffering and evil are simply a kind of rewording of the commonly heard: god works in mysterious ways! Actually, it should read: gods work in mysterious ways...because there are so many gods to choose from.
The issue with the free will argument is why does God get involved at all? Why do Christians believe in miracles if what happens in our lives are the results of the choices of ourselves and others? Why does God get credit for good fortune but times of sorrow are a result of luck or free will?
The idea that God granted us free will sounds all good. That is until you read countless events in the Bible where God takes away any such notion of free will over and over again.
Religion has convinced the world of the saddest story and worst concept ever imagined. God is not with you, he is removed from you. This is the root of all suffering. I would have rather have been left alone than to be ruled by fear and abandonment. This is why I’m free from religion and my morals are good.
Good for you. I think you'll like it. I read it 20 years ago when it first came out. I was impressed so much that I flew to New York to see Sam Give a talk. Since then I've been much more willing to tell people what I really think of their God.
Gotta love the argument of "god has a plan for all this suffering, but we don't know what it is". "So it's a gap in your knowledge" Ah but thats not a god of the gaps".
"God works in mysterious ways" is not an argument for god. It's an excuse people give for an absent, neglectful and uncaring god...aka a non-existent god.
The golden words I will remember - "Beliefs are not like clothing, comfort and utility and attractiveness cannot be our conscious criteria or adopting them. To believe a proposition, you have to believe that you have a good reason for believing it and the effect that this belief will have on your life cannot be among those reasons!" 😍
The fact that a god could give the evidence that would convince an atheist but yet has not or will not but will torture them forever for not believing is a god not worth worship and leaves most people superiorly moral than that god
I work in tech with some of the sharpest minds on the planet. Many of my colleagues hold PHDs and are way more intelligent than me. I cannot imagine why some of them would still continue to be religious. Many well educated people who understand evolution and the vastness of the universe know that their religion is wrong about the origin of the universe and mankind. Yet they cling on to their religion and worse, pass it on to their children.
This is interesting, “ the consequences of religious framework “ , The consequences are human suffering and religious domination over humans life , the future of humanity . 😮
Sam Harris presents sensible and common-sense arguments against the existence of "fairies at the bottom of the garden" (take your pick, 'cos there are many varieties) whereas the counter arguments are just a cop out based on wishful thinking and (flawed) mental gymnastics. Granted, there are many things we don't know about the mystery of existence, but to ascribe our existence to a supernatural entity that exists outside of time and space without even the slightest shred of evidence is incredibly lazy thinking and exhibits the tendency of mankind to opt for the easy answers and the "quick fix" to any issue which exists outside of the current scope of our knowledge and understanding. For us, we are born, we live and then we die. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to fear it. But fear it people do, as people have always done ... cue the imagination to invent ways for us to outlive the universe itself.
If your god's plan transcends human understanding, then the religious should shut up about it. If you believe god kills your child to make you suffer to "deepen your relationship with god", then you don't get to sneer at the unbelievers when they ask if you're crazy. It would be extra disturbing if you call yourself pro-life while believing that. Harris actually made a point about god setting up the Hindus for eternal damnation. There is no redemption through suffering for the damned.
What do you think of this way of ending my videos?
The point is to lay out an idea of how a religious opposition might dispute the arguments presented in this video.
My hope is that it will make people reflect on the religious point of view and thereby make way for a more constructive and honest discussion.
Personally, I find it of no more instructive value than the normal apologetic nonsense that we'd get from an evangelical pastor. Sam already dismissed these responses out of hand so you cheapen his presentation by adding this attempted equivocation as an ending. It's nothing more than a word salad and fails to give a meaningful answer to the need for evidence. The ending changed my up-vote to a down-vote and I will remove this selection from my playlist directly.
Man made man, the truth is here now. That does not mean that God is not real, because he is , I'm going to explain. The most refreshing thing is never having to believe again. When you say you believe, you are simply saying, I don't know! I had the phenomena happen to me, that's how I know, and I am trying to come forward. I know all of existence, I know exactly what God is. Mankind is absolutely extinct. The beginning of time and the end of time has to be simultaneous. The truth is amazing!!! Ps I know the secret of the number 3, and a lot more. Noah, Now Our Answer is Here???
i think it is civilized, logical, intelligent.... certainly better than anything Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens and the like usually offer up. something i very rarely see from an online atheists and many IRL.
Why doesn't Sam Harris look to JEHOVAH 16 All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,+ for disciplining in righteousness,+ 17
Sam Harris did a fine job and doesn't need your ridiculous add ons. Thanks, Sam. I love your books.
If someone dies from cancer, we say we just don't understand God's plan. If they live, we praise God for saving them. Pure blindness to reality.
If enough peopIe diee, it's because of the womennAndGays.
You might say that, us intelligent and understanding people don’t.
More unfair situation when doctors save a patient they thank god, if the patient die they blame the doctors.
It's so funny. We have tens of thousands of "experts" on God. Priests, Rabbis etc. They all "know" so much about him.
Just not his intentions. 😁
@@JaguarBST Nonsense! No christian blames a Doctor who worked hard to save lives. Unless of what recently happend a chirurgeon removed the Wrong Organ, so the patient died.No matter Christian or Atheist, Yes that was the Doctor. It is good to know that our life is not in the hands of doctors, but of God our Lord's Hands
People who argue suffering is good are always people who are not suffering. To them suffering is an abstraction. Ask a person who lost their entire family in an earthquake if suffering is good.
It's quite simple. God was created by mankind not the other way around
Certainly seems like the most likely explanation
Yes. And it was one of the biggest blunders committed by our forefathers. Isn't it?
Exactly. In the Genesis story, you should read it like this. God is mankinds creation. But mankind is corrupted, therefore God is too. That's why the Devil is in the details. And the greatest trick the Devil played on mankind, was convincing mankind that He is God, He is real, and that He needs to be worshipped as such.
Exactly, I know because I am him, I have more evidence than the world can imagine. When you say you believe you are simply saying I don't know!
Please watch to the end and then make your judgement
"Religion Poisons Everything" - Christopher Hitchens
"Sweat and sour is the best dipping sauce" - me
@@mastpg 💀
@@mastpg Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Say, "Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector." And upon Allah let the believers rely.
....Glorious Qur'an....
Quite right it does.
@@fionagregory9147 😆😁"Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful....Say, "Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector." And upon Allah let the believers rely." Qur'an
The counter arguments at the end are ones that I have heard all my life and simply guess at the nature of god’s “mysteriousness.” This reflects the inability to reason by people who have been indoctrinated to be blind and unthinking.
those arguments really enfuriate me. how delusional people can reach to be is astonishing to be honest
The counterpoints don’t require a God. Anything we don’t understand is mysterious. If the “plan” is greater than we can comprehend then how are different religions so sure their god is both the right god and with the right plan? Plus If god grants us the freedom of choice then the right not to believe in god is also an acceptable outcome. Not only that but it’s probably the safest given the afterlife threat of making the wrong choice is. Almost a reversal of Pascals Wager. Frankly it’s disappointing how fearful people are of being in control of their own morals and how big the universe is.
Yes, there's also the small problem that these counterarguments invoke a Begging the Question fallacy in which the arguments depend on the existence of a god for which we have no evidence.
But these counterarguments nevertheless feel somewhat persuasive. That's fine, but let's notice that they would be equally persuasive with the god premise and the faith premise removed. These premises are unhelpful to our investigation of the human condition, and they bring unwarranted supernatural baggage with them.
We inevitably have to navigate the difficulties of suffering and injustice, of not having answers to existential questions, of the imperfect nature of ourselves and perhaps of reality as a whole. We can't do that by invoking authoritarianism. That's not taking responsibility for our own navigation but trading it away for magical thinking.
@@starfishsystemswell put. These counter arguments are just desperate tools used by people have been indoctrinated and have been told similar things repeatedly. They have become the security blanket for those that at some point or another begin to question their own religion. It’s really a byproduct of cognitive dissonance, and probably a very difficult one to overcome.
Sadly, religious dogma has suppressed social progress in general. The fact that it’s still prevails to this day is a testament to the power of religious indoctrination.
The comments at the end are what Sam Harris says at the end of his speech. That when something bad happens then god is mysterious. It’s comical to see the weak arguments hypachristians have.
If a god existed, Why would a god care so much about peoples wishes and wants on a planet the size of an electron compared to the vastness of the Universe?
I don’t know, maybe god’s a pervert and prefers only watching certain acts of sex. 😂
Would he want for anything? Does he have a brain reward system and frontal cortext such as humans have which would drive him to be social and make plans for the future and to be driven to do anything? Just more questions from questions. Begging the question. He simply doesn't exist.
@@__-tz6xx
What is a he?
But Earth is enormous in comparison with an electron.
That's right. And despite being omnipotent, why did he gave them the free will at the first place?
Religion is like a 4;year old child that says they have an invisible friend. As the child ages, so does the invisible friend. It becomes more complex and stories are added to it to keep the maturing child engaged in the story. Over generations, those stories become accepted as true or factual when in reality theyre the invisible froend at its core.
Yes.
I agree. When I hear people debate religions, it sounds like a bunch of 3rd graders arguing about who gets to get into their treehouse.
Just remember, the Jews, who created the Torah (Old Testament) throughout history generally considered the stories as allegory. That may mean that they were not historically "factual" but the message they gave could still be "True." Literalism, that all of the Bible is factual, is a fairly recent creation. It took hold in America about 150ish years ago. It is the result of an authoritarian mindset.
Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace, 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics, 62% in Medicine, 54% in Economics and 49.5% of all Literature awards.
Well said.
One very disturbing aspect of religion is the glee that (some) believers show at how non-believers are going to suffer eternally once they die.
It reminds me of the movie Gladiator when the crowd cheers at the "sport" of people being slaughtered. Charming.
@jonnawyatt Making claims is so easy. It are Christians who provide most help and support in case of disasters. The Christian church was started immediately after the day of Pentecost Acts 2 in the year 30 - 31 AD A.D. 64. On July 19 that year a great fire engulfed much of Rome; Nero, managed to deflect blame to the Christians. Many Christians (perhaps including Peter) were seized, tortured, and done to death in the arena.
@@MariusVanWoerden humpty dumpty sat on a wall, humpty dumpty had a GREAT fall so we hear
@@nomorecrocs Of course that's all you have. One day you wil wish you were humpty dumpty..
@@MariusVanWoerden jack and jill went up the hill- to fetch a pail of water, jack fell down and broke his crown, jill came tumblin' after
The counterpoints at the end were so destroyed by Sam that it was hard to not smile while listening. As long as religious people pass on their beliefs to their children, this form of mental illness will continue.
What do you pass along then?
@@maxweinbach3996 definitely not mythology.
@@richardhedd3080 Then what?
@@maxweinbach3996i don't know why this is so difficult for you. teaching anything other than truth and verifiable fact is destructive. like teaching that the myths you grew up with are true is destructive.
@@richardhedd3080 However, teaching verifiable truth doesn't translate to good. You need a balance with faith and hope. If not, then we can quickly draw conclusions about other people (and yourself) which can lead to bad outcomes.
I find the argument of the ignorance of God's way to operate really inconsistent. For one part, believers claim that we cannot know God's reasons for suffering, but then they claim to know what God wants and His desire on a variety of moral topics. They have no compelling proof that God is loving, but it is obvious that they start with the premise that He is and then adapt their explanations to that statement.
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Say, "Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector." And upon Allah let the believers rely.
@@EAGLE29-TIME I don't understand a single word, mate. What is a soul? What is Allah? How can we realiably know these exist? I don't want to be mistaken so I remain agnostic in topics of the universe we don't know yet. So should everyone.
@@nightmike7655 😀 If you believe you actually exists, you are real and the world is real, if you believe that then you cannot help but also believe that us and the worlds are all dependent entities. If it's dependent and made up of other incalculable contingent configurations (matter, space-time, forces of gravity....) then only a fool will say that dependent entities are not dependent on an independent agency i.e. your dependent existance is dependent upon your respected father, who is totally independent of you. Can we find him, inside the chambers of your heart, the alveoli in your lungs or in the nephrons in your kidneys?
@@EAGLE29-TIME First, as Feynman said, the easiest person to fool is yourself, so we shouldn't base reality on internal feelings.
Second, I am myself contingent on the beginning of our universe. Thing is, if the Big Bang originated from a singularity, then the universe is not contingent on its past states. If it didn't originate from a singularity, it is self-contained and not dependant on anything else.
You seem to believe to know the answer to the origin and nature of the universe, when you, or anyone else on Earth, clearly do not.
@@nightmike7655 So the universe is dependent and it's dependent upon a singularity? What is singularity?
My favorite argument for the Bible is Christians claiming that slavery and misogyny and genocide were ok because the “times were different back then”. It is so sad and depressing to hear an adult say that with no comprehension of how illogical and incompatible that is with the belief of an all powerful and knowing deity. It is the apex of ignorance
Where does it state in the Bible that slavery and misogyny and genocide were ok
@@maxweinbach3996 why do you keep going underneath comments trying to change the minds of unbelievers? You literally clicked on a video for atheists looking for ppl who don’t believe. STOP forcing your beliefs on OTHERS. Let us be FREE in peace man.
@@JamayaAmeliaMiaSolanaTob-pi9vn You can do whatever you want. Be an idiot if you want too. I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I didn't communicate my beliefs. Read, lol.
@@maxweinbach3996Calling the dude an idiot was uncalled for.
Also Ephesians 6:5-8 and
Colossians 3:22 are outright orders for slaves to obey their masters as sincerely as they obey the Lord.
Misogyny please. Anyone who has read a total of one chapter in the bible can tell you it puts men above women. Women aren't allowed in pulpits, Women aren't allowed on altars, Women should be submissive and obey their husbands as they would God. Women can't do this or that. Pick up the scriptures and read them.
@@maxweinbach3996 one name. Joshua. Genocide right there. Specifically ordered by God. They weren't just supposed to go conquer a people and steal their land. Noooooo God ordered them to destroy and destroy completely.
Hey want another example I'll give you two where God does the killing himself. First, you know that little world wide flood where only Noah and his family survived.
Oh oh I remember when God sent his spirit during Passover to kill an entire nations first born sons.
If a god exists, and thats a big IF for me, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t care what you do with your private parts and who with. Nor does it care what time you turn the lights on or off or on what days. Nor does it care what you do and don’t eat. Nor does it care who’s president or who you voted for
At a more fundamental level, he won't give his creation the attribute of free will, if he is omnipotent i.e., all powerful.
Ho ho of course he cares about what you do with your private parts, that's why he is always watching!
Perhaps it is God's existence that you have the ability to care (or not), eat, or perform your daily routine?
@@maxweinbach3996 i have no reason to think that
@@Druid75 Open your mind
If a god has a larger divine plan that transcends human understanding. Then how can you tell someone about it? Are you not human?
Everything in this world is right there and couldn’t be more clear. We are no different than the trees or squirrels. We grew out of this world, webelong here, we will live and we will die. Our bodies will compost the earth, just like the tree and its leaves. That is it. We have created the concept of “me”, but I do not exist any more than if you started naming the trees in the forest. If you need “meaning”, then give it meaning if you choose, but that is personal and not applicable to another.
@rboland2173
If a god was mysterious and beyond human understanding. Then how do we know about all these different gods throughout history?
Obviously someone can understand and if someone can understand. Then it's not beyond human understanding.
Religion is the cancer of humanity!
“Thought created god and then thought worshiped the thought that it created.”
-Jiddu Krishnamurti
Love his work.
Did thought create our understanding of how gravity works?
@@maxweinbach3996 is gravity your god? The Egyptians Et al thought that the sun was a god; their thought didn’t create the sun but their thought definitely created a god out of it. Throw me a syllogism that gets at your rhetorical interrogative and I might listen more…
@@BOARMoto-bm2mh did I allude to that? “God” is a personal idea. Some believe God is a creator. Stars are responsible for almost all of the elements in the universe, from carbon in our backbone and the oxygen we breathe. Stars like the sun are “creators” so there’s no issue of a group of people want to warship it.
@@maxweinbach3996 How liberating the knowledge that one doesn’t ever own anything; that all conditioned things are impermanent; that there is no other world; that there’s not even this one.
- Look at all the good things here and there. Don't you understand they're good and a gift that might be from a god?
+ But if you look here or there you'll see cruelty and unfairness.
- Oh, it's because god is mysterious 🤦🏻♂️
Noooo, don't look at these parts, look over there where your religious auntie prayed to find her car keys and got them back! Ignore the starving children. God will take care of it 😇
(This is sarcasm, not to be taken seriously)
You are a mor*n!
@@mizuki3183 It's very difficult to take anything about religion seriously. It's like Flat Earth or YE Creationism, physics and philosophy for 3 year-olds
God is Santa Claus for frightened grown ups..
Assigning positive attributes to an entity, the existence of which cannot be validated in a rational, reasonable manner is a straw man argument.
No, it's a Begging the Question fallacy.
A Strawman fallacy is when you misrepresent your opponent's argument in order to make it easier to criticize.
The suffering in the world is better explained by that we live in a natural environment where there is no god than if there is one. We humans are responsible for making the world a better place. No amount of prayer will stop suffering
Perhaps the natural environment is God.
@@maxweinbach3996perhaps. How could you know though?
@@TimothyWhimp That's the thing. We never will know what "God' is. However, that might be a good thing as discovering what we don't know is what we as humans do. The more we try to (and actually find) find answers, the more questions arise. With that, humans are unique that we believe and have faith, we make assumptions and theories. Perhaps that is critical factor to our success?
@@maxweinbach3996 it’s possible and time will tell . I think you are right
Top notch Sam Harris at his best but, WARNING: presentation of delusional irrational illogical theodices at the end that ruins the video!
Belief in religion comes from the fear of death. The thought that at the end of life there is nothing else drives some to accept faith without evidence. Very sad really.
do you take meds and going to the hospital when you're sick?
taking meds and going to the hospital are obvious attempts to Delay death
you're obviously scared of death, by default
do you have descendants? by manufacturing descendants, people can keep their genetic information running in life
that's another attempt to Delay death, the death of your genetic information
everybody is scared of death by default
actions speak louder than words
Are you personally completely fine with there simply being absolutely nothing after you die, for eternity?
Seems very natural to fear the unknown but is it really unknown? What do you remember of anything before your birth? Same place.
@@dbuc4671 You will be dead but you won't know it so yes, completely fine.
existence is rough. we are constantly dealing with loss, disease, conflict over finances/territory, poverty, starvation and a myriad of other issues....do we REALLY need to add IMAGINARY ones to our plate????
One day, long after I'm gone, my hope is that all religions, with beliefs of supernatural beings in charge of everything, will have withered away with the understanding that the notion of god or gods are simply figments of man's imagination and therefore are just fantasies.
Idk, I think the worst of religion is that it makes people force their views on others. as long as people just don't force their beliefs on others, as long as people just mind their own business, the world will be fine. Religion may be a bunch of nonsense, but as long as it helps people live good, content lives, and drives them to contribute to society in positive ways, religion isn't all simply terrible. i wish there was less religion but i also acknolwedge that religion is important in society.
plus im a huge fan of mythology from different ancient cultures lol.
That's how I feel, too. Wish I would be around to see those days.
@@dbuc4671 The problem with this attitude is that rarely can the religious stop themselves from trying to "save" you and anyone else who doesn't believe as they do. They also tend to segregate themselves and their families from those who have different beliefs and teach their children those people are evil. I'm fine with them if they don't do that.
You remove religion and another form will take its place. Perhaps religion > Nationalism, racism. What brings groups together is exactly what breaks "man" apart.
You ruined the whole video by adding the crap at the end. If you listened to what Sam had to say, you would be asking these things
Desperate Abrahamic religionists, when they go into their theodices, like at the end of the video, are like ostriches that dig a hole to hide their dangers, except here, they dig frenzily deeper yet, when confronted with reality.
Classic.
The end of this video is the same bullshit that was handed to me by the school sisters of Notre Dame, and the Catholic Church. that was until I reached the age of reason. Now I am an atheist. I agree with the statement “Man came into existence, and man created gods.” 😺
Since you're so proud to be an atheist, I dare you to play the ouija board. By yourself, in a cemetery in the dead of night (that's 3am), and break all its rules. When you experience the supernatural, I hope you have the balls not to ask for help. In fact, I want to see you at the precipice of expiry to see if you still hold your beliefs firmly.
The counter argument at the end is classic rationalization of the evil of god.
Couldn't agree more!
Using most religious/spiritual texts as soft allegorical/moral guides to living a "good" life is quite reasonable.
Allowing your mind and agency to be taken over by dogma, doctrine and external guidance is evil.
Nothing, in the end, is sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Too many people give that up willingly.
Agree! We are not animals. If all morality is based in religious dogma and only that. Then what a wonderful job it has done. Millions have been killed in the name of one god or another! Here's another one, be fruitfull and multiply! Now that there are over eight billion people on the planet. And birth control is still taboo, in most of societies. And religious doctrine. We are fruitfully sucking or planet dry. But, there's the mystery of gods plan. Crazy!
Beautifully and convincingly argued Sam...
Mom: My child died from cancer.
God: Yep, I hope you learned a valuable lesson!
Mom: What lesson?
God: *crickets*
This started so good and then the guy that posted it started yapping
If God created mankind, then their would only be one religion, if mankind created God(s) their would be many religions.
Amen! That's it perfectly.
That's why we should convert every one into Christianity as fast as possible.
It depends on what kind of God you're referring to. This argument works only for God with certain attributes ascribed to it, which I'll get to eventually. With the exception of this specific kind of God, nothing in your argument indicates whether God exists or not.
If God exists, it's logically possible for there to be any number of religions and gods created by mankind, even none at all. If God doesn't exist, it's also logically possible for there to be any number of religions and gods created by mankind, even none at all. There's no way to differentiate between gods existing and not existing merely on the basis of there being many religions and gods worshipped throughout the world. The only conclusion we can rationally arrive at is that there are many religions.
Unless, however, there was God that wants us to know it exists, wants us to know what it's like, what it wants and so on, only then we would expect there to be just one, universal religion and that God's top priority would be to prove its existence to everyone and to communicate all the necessary information to us clearly, with no room for misunderstandings whatsoever. While this isn't what we observe in reality, it doesn't mean that some God cannot exist.
We can, of course, determine which gods do exist and which ones do not, by listening to the claims of religious about certain characteristics of God they propose and see whether those characteristics are consistent with what we would expect to objectively observe in reality had this or that God existed. For example, Christians in general claim that their God wants to have a relationship with all of us. If that was true, we would expect this God to be like the one I described in previous paragraph, which isn't what we observe in reality and thus our expectations aren't met.
Can't we just hear him talk without the annoying music? What, him speaking is not compelling enough?
Religious often use music to sway emotions.
Personally, I think that if you want to bring up the opposing point of view, then it is best done by the person Sam is debating, for instance. I find that the change in format of the video, as well as the hypothetical response to be uncomfortable to follow. I thought the rest of the video was great. You carefully rated and edited some of Sam’s best points, and I applaud you. Keep it up!
Well said.
the counter arguments at the end are nothing more than the usual bollocks used to patch over the gapping holes in religious doctrine
Yup
God was created by men who wanted to force their will on the masses by creating a higher authority.
God was created because of human insecurities.
I have been an Atheist as long as I can remember, but, as I am now old with Boot Hill writ large on my horizon, I thought of giving Religion another look. But when I looked back over my life and realized , that all the best folk that I had known, were either Atheists or kept there faith close to there chests and the worst, meanest bastards etc, were church goers and the most devout that I knew , was the worst of them all. So I closed the Bible and put it back on the shelf, along with the Brothers Grimm, Hans Cristian Anderson and Walt Disney etc. where it belongs.
The thing is, like Sam very aptly put it, "You can't believe in religion simply because of its utility". There are umpteen number of religions that are way better at morals than the Abrahamic three. Human goodness is innate, and we all can derive a framework and compile it as a religion. But, we are yet to prove the supernatural. God's will, God's plan, God this, God that. It's all simple unprovable. So, before talking about these humongous subjects about some big plan, we are yet to prove the existence of a planner i.e. God.
That's why modern religions are classified by anthropologists as 'salvation religions'. Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists accept and are indoctrinated to think there is something wrong with you and your natural state...but don't worry, believe in their dogma and you can be 'saved'.
Cutting edge theological philosophy from 2000 years ago. Quite insidious.
If God’s plan transcends your understanding, then you can’t argue for a good or moral God.
Maybe God isn't any of the above. What if God was the elementary fundamental laws of how the universe works?
@@maxweinbach3996
Why call that God? Does it have agency? Would it make choices, have plans, or make moral assessments?
@@moonshoes11 Are you asking why we use words to communicate? "God" is a word. Words are made up. Our understanding, just like words can change with time. Historically, "God" is situated into something we can't explain. We can't explain how the universe works, we understand that certain aspects obey certain laws, but we don't know why. "God" fills that gap. God is something that we will never know no matter how long we exist, no matter how much brain power goes into figuring out how things work.
No, I will not listen to another religious take on this. Religion has had long enough.
I'm just thankful that I came across a debate a few years ago between some Islamic religious spokespersons or whatever they were, and Dr Lawrence Kraus.. It changed my life. Now I'm way into the cosmos and the micro. And I understand my close relationship with other living things on this earth. Understanding your origin is a pretty important thing to do as a human, my primate, you should give truth a shot at molding your life. You'll feel a hell of a lot better without all 'that'
How much simpler and safer the world would be without religion.
I didn't believe in God when I tuned in to this, and now having heard it I can't believe that anyone does, if only we could end all religions what a far more peaceful world we would have. Trouble is the believers just will not be swayed they just can't listen to reason and that's the normal ones, on top of this we have the radicals, millions of them, I sadly do believe that we are all doomed but for different reasons.
So where are the people who died thousands of years ago?
Are they in heaven and have to be resurrected again?
Are they in hell and have to be resurrected again?
What for? Have they not been judged already?
Your comments on this video are unnecessary.
Great video. Sam Harris makes excellent points. To Sam Harris's point about god allowing those children to suffer and die before the age of five. And no god does not work in mysterious ways. I have a personal experience with that point in mind.
I was born into a Christian home to missionary parents. I went to a private Christian school for 11 years. My father is an ordained minister. I have older siblings and one young sibling all of which are deeply religious, and the oldest sibling is part of a church that borders on cult-like thinking and belief. I do not believe in a god. I am an atheist. I have many reasons why I am an atheist but I will share one for now.
I was born with a rare congenital anomaly in my spinal column and spinal cord. I developed this condition in my mother's womb. This congenital anomaly caused me so much pain and discomfort in my early 30s that major spinal surgery was required. My spinal cord was tethered at the base of my neck and tethered right at the small of my back. When I bent over my spinal and cord had no give or no ability to stretch with my movements. In the middle of my back the spinal cord was split in two by a bone-like bar, and in that space that was split grew a cyst the size of a baseball. The doctors tried to fix everything and unfortunately now I am slowly and painfully losing my ability to walk. My back is completely numb, my legs from my thighs down are painfully numb, think of when your foot or hand falls asleep and the painful pins a needles you feel as the blood rushes back to your foot or hand. Times that by 10 and that's my every day, every hour, minute, and second. It SUCKS!
I've had the religious people in my life say there's a reason for your condition. "God works in mysterious ways." Then I have non-believers who ask if I'm mad at my situation. Am I mad at god. To the religious people I say what is mysterious about what God gave me in my mother's womb? Am I mad at my situation or mad at god? I'm not mad at my situation? No. Am I mad at god? No, because gods don't exist. This was a mutation that happen in my mother's womb. I've accepted my condition and I make sure I make each day worth it with my wife and kids. I don't take my ability to walk for granted because I know it will be lost at some point. My goal is to walk my daughter down the isle when she gets married.
Brainwashing and indoctrination are extremely dangerous things that transpire in religion, especially Christianity. I ask people, believers, and non-believers, to read the bible cover to cover. Dig into the research of Christianity from all sides, read books from both sides, watch debates, and most importantly, QUESTION EVERYTHING!
Those final arguments from yourself, can be summed up by saying, “god works in mysterious ways” which is just nonsense.
I dont have a problem with religious people. My problem is with their fanatical behavior to prove that their religion is supreme.
Well, we don't have freewill for a starter. Not only do we not have it, I can't imagine a way in which we could. Everything depends upon something else until you end up back at the big bang. Why did you order Italian instead of Thai? Because of the big bang and the initial conditions that allowed for it. Although true, it seems to explain nothing yet it does. Without that, not this.
I don't go along with the "Big Bang", because I think all of this was always here.
@@stevie68ahow can you say that ''all of this'' has always existed when we know for a matter of fact that the universe is expanding, so if you go back far enough you will always reach a point time where all of the matter in the universe is constrained to one singular point, thus the singularity and the big bang. Do you just not believe in science?
@radioactive1382 Big Bang is the beginning of our scientific understanding of the universe, not necessarily the actual beginning of the universe.
"One of the common misconceptions about the Big Bang model is that it fully explains the origin of the universe. However, the Big Bang model does not describe how energy, time, and space were caused, but rather it describes the emergence of the present universe from an ultra-dense and high-temperature initial state."
-Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.
The counter-arguments at the end of the video merely illustrate that religion is a tool to justify anything, no matter how evil.
#FreedomFromYourReligion
Counter argument 1: Effectively "God works in mysterious ways..."
Counter argument 2: A combination of "it's our fault, because of sin" and "god isn't powerful enough to just make good things. Can't be brave without fear, can't be happy without sadness..."
"You just don't see their good side. Yes, they can be a bit violent sometimes and sometimes it's scary to go home, but they can be really lovely. Can't think of many examples, or any really, but I'm sure they love me." - A theist in a toxic relationship with their imaginary master.
Seriously? Interrupting Sam?
Now that’s what I call a sin.
The final two arguments at the end aren't necessary. This is not a news posting; you are not required to present opposing views. They cheapen the whole vid, and should be removed.
Most believers are afraid to really ask the questions and more afraid to be honest and answer! When I finally did it all became clear to me …either god doesnt care or he is not real!! Even the most wicked person would not wish such tragedy on any person yet alone your “child” in whom u love!! Is there anything YOUR child (who u love) could do for u to sentence them to be tortured forever!!!??? Once I honestly answered that …I was FREE 🙌🏾
If the witch doctor decides to perform a raindance after a long period of drought and it's starting to rain, the mythe stays alive. If not, the gods decided otherwise and the myth stays alive.
In regards to your final arguments. Harris addressed very clearly the incongruity of an all loving god and unbelievable human suffering and death. In regards to free will and suffering Harris also addressed this. If god is omnipotent then he already knows the suffering he allows. So god is either impotent or evil. That does not work with omnipotence and all love. A god who is all love would simply create an earth where humans live in paradise with no suffering. That’s 2 strikes. Try again.
Background music is spot on perfect to suit the mood and rhythm and content of the speaker. Very good.
The war god of Abraham creates humans, knowing in advance that most of them are going to hell for eternity...nice god ya got there believers.
Well said Sam Harris.
Finally someone articulate enough, with a public platform, to state such a necessary truth (in which humanity desperately needs to hear) regarding the whole concept of religion in these modern times.
Goku is closer to being real than God
There's no room for any religion in the modern world. Period!!!
As to your counterpoints at the end of the video, if gods purposes are unknowable but good, what is the purpose of praying? Is it merely try to talk god out of taking this course or that, thinking you know better than god?
I don’t mind that they believe in a god, but why must they try to make me believe it?
Without lies, yhwh dies.
Man evolved with other mammals. We are all animal. Native Americans understood this and addressed other animals such as brother bear, brother horse, and so on. We are no better than animals and in some cases no smarter.
On the first day man created God.
Nah, those concepts evolved over time.
@@moonshoes11 when I saw Trump I think I saw nail holes in his palms
@@michaeltodd9672
May I recommend sobriety?
Sam Harris is one of my favorite people and everything he said is true.
All so logical, thanks Sam.
Imagine my shock when this video was interrupted by an add, asking of me for a moment to pray with him.😂
My holy text is "Meditations", by Marcus Aurelius. We go to our local on Sunday. We worship our sushi chef. 🙏
After a Christian upbringing I began to lose any faith in religion when I began to realise the intolerance that one religion has for another and that your choice is dependant upon where you were born. I now fail to see how any intelligent person can believe in any God. I appreciate how Sam harris, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have helped me to realise the truth.
I agree with you. I can’t understand how highly educated people can have these religious beliefs on ancient books. Justice’s on the US Supreme Court are going to interpret laws and make decisions based on their religious beliefs! How ridiculous is that?
Most people of faith deal with depression. They can pray for something better but deep psychological pain through their perspective seems strange when these people tend to know that death would spiritually put you in eternal happiness. Yet you can’t die by your own hand so you have to suffer through and wait it out. Or focus on being the best and happiest you can now. Because this life is the only one we get. And experiencing happiness through finite life is blissful.
"Religion is like a blind man looking into a black room, searching for a black cat that isn't there, and finding it."
Religious people do not reconcile - they make excuses
Religious people are able to reconcile whatever they like, as they rely on magic and mysteriousness to explain anything difficult or contradictory. That is why debating religious people is a waste of time.
I reckon religion is based on fear and selfishness, the egomania of the religious is based on not wanting to cease to exist on death, an unspoken assumption that their boring, self-centred lives will continue drearily forever and ever - and it's somehow just for that to be so because of their grovelling to their chosen deity.
Bonkers.
The ending counter-arguments tells me that god simply uses people as pawns; and that death and suffering is merely a tool to help others grow “spiritually”. It’s a slap in the face to tell someone hurting that it’s “god’s will”.
I get the reason for adding the ending as responses from the believer's side of things, but it holds no water. The various reasons given here why a believer will accept suffering and evil are simply a kind of rewording of the commonly heard: god works in mysterious ways! Actually, it should read: gods work in mysterious ways...because there are so many gods to choose from.
Why the background music? It's so irritating.
My response to your response is. you were not listening to what Sam said!
Goodness of God..i’m suffering from chronicle pains from my 16th and i’m now 57
there was not one day without pain.
Where is his goodness ?
The issue with the free will argument is why does God get involved at all? Why do Christians believe in miracles if what happens in our lives are the results of the choices of ourselves and others? Why does God get credit for good fortune but times of sorrow are a result of luck or free will?
The guy at the end further proving Harris’ argument. Good grief
Who created God? Who created the creator of God .....
The idea that God granted us free will sounds all good. That is until you read countless events in the Bible where God takes away any such notion of free will over and over again.
Religion has convinced the world of the saddest story and worst concept ever imagined. God is not with you, he is removed from you. This is the root of all suffering.
I would have rather have been left alone than to be ruled by fear and abandonment.
This is why I’m free from religion and my morals are good.
Just ordered End of Faith by Harris last week. Going to read it soon, hope it'll be an intelligent book.
Good for you. I think you'll like it. I read it 20 years ago when it first came out. I was impressed so much that I flew to New York to see Sam Give a talk. Since then I've been much more willing to tell people what I really think of their God.
If there is a god, he must be a monster.
This man is the voice of reason.
Gotta love the argument of "god has a plan for all this suffering, but we don't know what it is".
"So it's a gap in your knowledge"
Ah but thats not a god of the gaps".
"God works in mysterious ways" is not an argument for god. It's an excuse people give for an absent, neglectful and uncaring god...aka a non-existent god.
There is no hate like christian love
The golden words I will remember - "Beliefs are not like clothing, comfort and utility and attractiveness cannot be our conscious criteria or adopting them. To believe a proposition, you have to believe that you have a good reason for believing it and the effect that this belief will have on your life cannot be among those reasons!" 😍
The fact that a god could give the evidence that would convince an atheist but yet has not or will not but will torture them forever for not believing is a god not worth worship and leaves most people superiorly moral than that god
I work in tech with some of the sharpest minds on the planet. Many of my colleagues hold PHDs and are way more intelligent than me. I cannot imagine why some of them would still continue to be religious. Many well educated people who understand evolution and the vastness of the universe know that their religion is wrong about the origin of the universe and mankind. Yet they cling on to their religion and worse, pass it on to their children.
Whether it's a comparably small evil, due to a larger plan, or a big evil, it's STILL EVIL. If God can do evil, he's not all good.
This is interesting,
“ the consequences of religious framework “ ,
The consequences are human suffering and religious domination over humans life , the future of humanity .
😮
All of the arguments for a good God fail to stand up to even the most rudimentary logic 😮
Sam Harris presents sensible and common-sense arguments against the existence of "fairies at the bottom of the garden" (take your pick, 'cos there are many varieties) whereas the counter arguments are just a cop out based on wishful thinking and (flawed) mental gymnastics. Granted, there are many things we don't know about the mystery of existence, but to ascribe our existence to a supernatural entity that exists outside of time and space without even the slightest shred of evidence is incredibly lazy thinking and exhibits the tendency of mankind to opt for the easy answers and the "quick fix" to any issue which exists outside of the current scope of our knowledge and understanding. For us, we are born, we live and then we die. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to fear it. But fear it people do, as people have always done ... cue the imagination to invent ways for us to outlive the universe itself.
Atheist make 16% of America. Yet in America they make 0.056 of the prison population. So the goes your moral standard theory .
🇷🇴✌️👍 from Romania, good work, I am a romanian critique of religion.
If your god's plan transcends human understanding, then the religious should shut up about it.
If you believe god kills your child to make you suffer to "deepen your relationship with god", then you don't get to sneer at the unbelievers when they ask if you're crazy. It would be extra disturbing if you call yourself pro-life while believing that.
Harris actually made a point about god setting up the Hindus for eternal damnation. There is no redemption through suffering for the damned.