How is it legal to get paid $2 an hour? | Alice Snedden’s Bad News | The Spinoff
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- Опубліковано 18 лис 2024
- Roughly 900 people get paid between $2 and $5 an hour at work in Aotearoa as a result of the minimum wage exemption. Although it is a government initiative to get more people with learning disabilities into the workplace, it still makes Alice feel bad and weird. In this episode she speaks to former minister for disability issues Carmel Sepuloni, disability rights lawyer Huhana Hickey, Altus CEO Martin Wylie and workers Tatiana Tupou and Samantha Gillespie about the pros and cons of the exemption.
🎞 Alice Snedden’s Bad News takes one curious comedian inside the most complex and controversial issues facing Aotearoa today.
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The audio description of this episode is available at Attitude Live: attitudelive.c...
I changed my opinion 4 times on this one. And still don’t know.
Good points from both sides. For me the strongest arguments came from Leonie and her lived experience. She clearly cares a lot for her daughter's quality of life and believes there are benefits. Although I do wonder if her position would remain the same if the WINZ system itself weren't so combative.
The inconvenient truth is that we live in a world where employers' decisions are based on return on investment (ROI). If their staff don't return more than they are being paid they don't remain in open employment for long. Within this framework of business and the desire for economic potential, there is little place for people with ID. In 2007 almost 2000 workers with Intellectual disabilities were sacrificed on the altar of ideology when the IHC closed its workshops. It left parents bewildered, angry and people with ID jobless. If initiatives are measured on data and not just good intentions the outcome of that decision did not go well for disabled people who simply wanted a job. The decision-makers will need to be wise if they are going to replace existing wage permits with an alternative scheme that they don't damage one of the few organisations that are committed to providing inclusion, employment and training options for disabled people.
Great wee film.
Admittedly, I find it kind of cooked that people are being paid 2 bucks an hour but I also agree with that boss guy that the benefits of being part of a workplace community are valuable. I don't know weather or not it's worth it. Is it exploitative? Of course it is. We're all paid less than what our labour is worth but this cohort of 900 are being paid waaaay less.
Difficult to take alot of what that guy says seriously though. He stands to benefit the most from it so of course he doesn't want it to change.
I don't think hes in it for the money Ben. Altus is a non profit organisation/NGO and they pay their managers way less than the open market equivalent jobs. I noticed he has a disabled child of his own.
Some people think that these are businesses looking for cheep labor. That couldn't be further from the truth. They work their buts off to find work that is suitable for intellectually disabled people to do and that's their only reason to exist.
Fair enough. Perhaps I'm being slightly too harsh.
I tend to side with his argument moreso than not if I'm being honest. I have worked in ID care before and afew of our young people had jobs and they spoke very highly of their experiences. I remember one girl reflecting that being part of something and contributing was important to her. I have no doubt if this policy is scrapped people with ID will face workplace discrimination under the argument of productivity.
I don't know a workable solution around this
My point still remains that he does stand to gain from this policy, but I'm not suggesting he's not a good person, just that it should be noted his opinion is likely biased
Altus Enterprises is the employer and a charity. So no one is "profiting" from the employment of people with intellectual disabilities at Altus.
I’ve noticed that Alice said wage exemption permits violate workers’ rights to equal remuneration for work of equal value. Viewers need to be aware that MB Labour Inspectors sign off on all wage permits so they don’t violate or exploit workers’ rights to be paid fairly for their individual working capacity (determined by a thorough assessment process). In my view, even if an individual can’t work to a minimum wage worker’s capacity, they should still be able to have a job and be paid for whatever work they can do, which is what organisations like Altus do very well.
In a dream world, Altus Enterprises would not exist. Companies across New Zealand would hire at least one person with an intellectual/physical disability. Altus are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, and only exist to provide disabled people with employment options.
Alice's film crew represents nearly all NZ companies - no staff with disability. Carmel couldn't confirm whether the ministry for disabled people actually employed anyone with a disability.
The unfortunate reality is that NZ companies have no real incentive to hire people with a disability, so it is left to organisations like Altus to provide employment options for intellectually disabled people. The additional paperwork, administration, inefficiencies and need for hiring able bodied supervisors (to check and double check quality) means that Altus cannot compete with an open market employer, so must rely on Minimum Wage Exemption Permits (MWEP) to make it financially sustainable to hire people with intellectual disabilities.
If disability enterprises, such as Altus, paid all staff minimum wage they would go out of business within 3 months - they'd have to pass on the additional cost to the customer, so nobody would buy their products or services (imagine Will & Able charging $30 for a bottle of dishwashing liquid). This means those 900 people would lose their job and end up on 100% disability benefit at home. This increases pressure on family support, family finances and demand for care workers across the country.
Let's keep supporting organisations like Altus, while encouraging the government to provide incentives for NZ companies to hire people with disabilities and finding a better alternative to MWEP.
Carmel Sepuloni was talking about her personal staff, not the Ministry. The CEO of the Ministry for Disabled people is a former paralympian - though I'm not sure about learning disabilities
I find it a bit odd that the minister for disabilities doesn’t know how many Intellectually disabled people she employs. Perhaps her lack of knowing or caring highlights the very issue being discussed here. All Hui and no Doi
As an Autistic person I think it's okay she doesn't know. I've had a few jobs and never once told my employers I'm autistic
But also, if you have a partner, you don’t get a disability allowance, so it’s ridiculous!
ultimately my conclusion is less that intellectually disabled people on minimum wage exemptions are paid less than their labour is worth uniquely but more that all of us are paid less than our labour produces because otherwise the businesses that employ us wouldn't exist 😂😂😂😂
That's the crux of capitalism really.
When he says a wage subsidy would turn his organisation into a government agency, I think he might be on to something. If the idea is to give people something useful to do and to pay them for it, why not have government do that? It could be part of a broader job guarantee. I think that's a much better option than giving heavily subsidised labour to private companies, which seems to be what the government is planning.
It should be genuinely optional of course, and not something people are forced to do because living on a benefit is impossible.
Altus is not a private company Oliver, it's an NGO that gets a small subsidy from the government to cover administration costs. If you gave organisations like Altus to the government they would quietly close them within 2 years and put all intellectually disabled people on a benefit because it gets rid of a problem for them. But the issues still remain that if your outputs are less than minimum wage it bloody hard to find an employer that will carry the costs.
I think this was a very fair and balanced issue that was discussed well especially with the factory boss. Good on them for taking the financial risk of employing disabled people, they clearly love the job and sitting on a govt benefit
is going to hurt them.
Man, that business owner came across as really confrontational and aggressive. I’d love to know how much money he’s pocketing off the backs of workers paid $2 an hour.
I think a wage subsidy sounds perfect, because it’s acknowledging that these are people doing real work, with real value, and they should be paid a reasonable wage. But also that businesses are generally not going to hire them without an extra incentive.
For the mother who was talking about dealing with WINZ - under a well implemented version of this, it would be the business going through the bureaucracy, not the individual workers and their families.
Altus Enterprises is a nonprofit. Their 2020-2021 annual return states that their staff expenses were about $2 million with 100 full-time staff members. They do not have to report how much of that goes to the boss
I think he come across as passionate about providing solutions for these people when the government and private for profit sector continue to fail & sideline these people, despite their rhetoric.
As it seems that many people are recognising, we are, of course, all exploited due any businesses need to take money from your labour in order to make profit. Capitalism will always exploit workers. This is just an example of the most disadvantaged of a system that exploits all workers.
It has also created a world in which to live (by making a living) you need to be neurotypical ,because work is not completed out of desire but necessity. Your desire and willingness to work is irrelevant if it does not correlate into better productivity and success (increasing capital).
This is the issue... the capitalist narrative which sees our worth as defined by our economic productivity, when humans simply have more to offer!
If what you are saying is true, how do you explain companies making donations to charity? How exactly are workers better off in socialist countries? What happened to the Kulaks when socialism arrived?
@@jeffappleton926 Companies value goodwill. It's actually reported on many balance sheets as a dollar figure.
@@spicex4k901 Are you suggesting that the only motives companies have for donating to charity are selfish? It's true that companies value goodwill and they often treat this as an asset on their balance sheet. I would ask you how that makes the money donated any less valuable to the Cancer Research Organisation or other charity that receives it. It is also true that donations to registered charities are generally tax deductible. Again, that does not make the donation any less valuable to the charity who receives it. Do you think that companies never consider the good that can be done with the money they donate?
Also, keep in mind that companies are not the only form of capitalism. How about the grocery store owner who sponsors a local sports team? Sure, you could argue that this person is only doing it for the advertising. But maybe they genuinely also do it so the kids have a decent uniform to play in?
Servers (waitresses and waiters) in most states in America are paid $2.20 an hour plus tips. Benefits are included unless one qualifies for federal aid. The rate only increased once in 20 years from $1.86. It's never talked about ....politically.
Thank you so much for exposing this
Its hard to not see the business owner as a cartoon villain. I don't know if that is editing or just him as a person.
He came across to me as someone who is really, really sick of being attacked by people who haven't thought it through and have no idea what effect their proposed changes would have on the people he cares about. "yeah, that's great, I'll just kick them out on the street then shall I?"
@@mozismobile He obviously cares about them to a point but he also has some pretty condescending views about it too.
It depends on the size of business and the ease or difficulty they normally have finding staff. If less than 10 full-time staff it should be allowed, only mandatory for companies with at least 50 staff. Then put everybody under $100k on a UBI, sack all MSD, and abolish the min wage.
People have been fighting this issue for decades. Great piece but you missed the alternative response which grew out of a need to stop the exploitation of people who experience learning difficulties, and that is Supported Employment - an employment initiative focussed on fully waged mahi for people who experience the highest levels of disability and barriers to employment.
I hear echoes of the same concerns when we undertook deinstitutionlisation - closing down Kimberly, Kingseat, Lake Alice etc. where the parents who went on tv, protested etc. about closures became the movements loudest supportes.
I wasn't impressed with the talk about people with minimal learning difficulties not really understanding or being representative - Sir Robert Martin and others are our experts and those minimal levels of disability described in the piece still got them locked away in institutions to experience horrific treatment. Writing our leaders off like that because they are what? Too smart? was disrespectful and silencing.
Dr Hu, you are a treasure.
Unemployed is a great job. I have been unemployed due to disability so I speak from experience. The only problem with it is that the pay sucks. The idea that people need to be profitable employees to be happy is toxic.
And they are the best workers
this was a hard watch, to treat others outside ourselves as though they are lesser as a human being in any form and deserve 'special treatment' that sees you get paid less, absurd
They just need to pay people with disability the same because it's discrimination from govt and the employer.
the boss is an ableist ninny. what garbage. disabled folks should be compensated for their time just like the rest of the workers doing that job.
So an ad hominem attach is is the best you can do in response? Clearly you are on very weak ground. Try and focus on the real issues for once and not just the speaker. Wishful thinking alone will not get anyone a job. The employees are compensated at rates approved by a third party official. The employer is a charity.
Wow. Did you watch the same video here? So interesting that I had the absolute opposite reaction to him. I thought he matched his compassion with practical action.
@@Zepplin808 compassion?!!? paternalistic more like. wont be grateful for someone who thinks of disabled workers as folks who should be 'grateful' for work at below minimum wage. People, no matter their intellectual disability deserve to be compensated for their time regardless. put yourself in the workers shoes, would really want a boss like that who considers you a no hoper and thinks he's doing you a favour? that's so crass. Most of these interviews were with parents and caregivers too, folks who are intellectually disabled adjacent, not actually the folks with those disabilities themselves, talking about the issues as if they are the experts.
I mean this is slavery
Woke Woke Woke this is a typical Leftwing Joke , even the handy capped can say NO !
Thank you for highlighting this issue. Where is the ministry for Men, European New Zealanders, Indian New Zealanders, Chinese New Zealanders.... Equality and Unity does not come from Seperating individuals because of Race, Sex or Vaccine status, in my opinion. Just my thoughts on the governments current agenda.
Check out the Ministry for Ethic Communities, that covers much of your concerns. Men and Pakeha dont really need to be advocated for unless they intersect with other communities, our world is built to meet their requirements.
@@ginnayaturner2641 I fully disagree with your opinion, Our world is built for All. These systems are not designed for one gender and ethnicity. That's a very racist point of view. We have a democracy with equal voice for All. Well we are "supposed to". Thank you for the info about another government ministry, I have learnt something and now I can see where we can make some more budget cuts to bring our public service costs down and national debt that our grandchildren will be paying the interest on while they rent there 2 Bedroom townhouses with no section to grow there own healthy food. 🤦
@@abolstad7104 Our world is built for all? If was the intent, I think we can agree that it's not working very well. If our world was built for all - and functioning according to that intent - we wouldn't see such levels of inequality. Or do you think the current state of the world is exactly the way it should be?
@@because_the_internet NO, I agree the system's are corrupted but that is an easy fix, We are all being shown the how, who and who for atm. Now we are able to make clear choices about what direction we want our country and world to go. Logic, compassion and wisdom are showing up more and more so I know we are on the right track. ✌️
@@ginnayaturner2641 At the time of the industrial revolution life expectancy for men and women were roughly equivalent. Bear in mind that men don't face the risk posed by childbirth. Instead they were more frequently worked to death. Nowadays life expectancy is higher for women than men - and we still don't face the risks posed by childbirth. How do you explain that if the modern world is built to meet men's requirements?
If you are so careless of the wellbeing of men generally and white men particularly why exactly do you think they should care about you?