I upgraded my system about 6 months ago. I used the audiophiles guide to do my new speaker setup. I could not get a wide Sweet Spot. Until I saw this video, about the CD case. I removed the rear carpet spikes on the speakers, so that they tilted upward. Fantastic Improvement. The Sweet Spot is now the size of my entire couch. Thanks.
Thank you. I've moved mine away from the wall, adjusting the bass-coupling and I've also put a CD case beneath each cabinet. It's already sounding much better :)
I did try changing the toe in of my speakers, lessening it to almost none, it helped greatly. The distance apart i cant change, but when the wife isnt home i pull the speakers out from the wall as well. All these things definately help.
I've been consuming your audio-knowledge content for a bit now, but this is the first time seeing this video. I've got a wider-than-deep listening area, and with my Maggie LRS', it's been a bit of a challenge to focus them properly. Thank you for this vid, 'cause I think it will help with my particular set-up. I love your content, and you as it's presenter, so keep up the fascinatingly good work. You're helping, I believe, many more people than you even realize. =)
I have my Monitor Audio BX6’s towed - in with “laser accuracy”, so I’m going to try turning them out a little. Never heard about the CD cases thing, so I’ll try that too. I already have them out from the wall. Thanks for this video.
You are a genius Paul... Great info for the new Audiophile who's just getting started.... ( Not me I have been a audiophile my whole life, it's just in the last 20 yrs that I have taken it seriously).
Well, one sad truth in high end audio is that... THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!! (sounds like the Highlander motto...). There can only be just one perfect seat, for the lucky (and perhaps the only with true demanding audio tastes) owner and developer of the system. (Don't worry, it's usually a lonely hobby, lonely hours, night hours, you know...). At very close distance to that unique sweet-spot, very few others will ask for more (my wife would always rather take a very loose, multitasking listen, from the kitchen-if not at all!)...
You can toe them out slightly if you want to sacrifice your 'perfect' sweet spot for a better overall sound regardless of where you are sitting. It will help keep the channels separated and sounding good over a wider range, but you won't really have a 'sweet spot' anymore at all. I would keep them straight forward though, with no inward toeing at all. Pigeon toed speakers are for introverts. Personally, I think it is better to move the speakers forward as that will widen the sweet spot with no sacrifice at all.
Another thing you can try, recommended by speaker manufacturers Audio Note and Aerial Acoustics (I own both), is to cross them to meet in front of you. Audio Note says vertex should be six feet in front of your listening location. Aerial likes it for home theater, especially...
Consider using the Altec Stonehenge with the new Great Plains Audio 604 driver with wider dispersion Mantaray tweeter, plus using a Carver preamp with Sonic Holography!
Moved up to ribbon dipole speakers -- Switching Sonic Holography into the circuit blew our minds! We're now hearing a crazy surround-like presentation, with no apparent room boundaries, neither walls, nor floor or ceiling! Only a couple of audiophiles complained about hearing musical elements in *front* of the speakers, but the rest of us simply enjoyed it. Cheers! :D
Hi Az Usmb I also have a pair of dipole RIbbons (Oskar Heil Kithara's) Any advice on placement? Ive even tried pointing them facing eachother in front of the listening area.. Really trying to get it dialed in.
Almost all domestic listening rooms are practically unsymmetric (inclusive of furniture and construction.) This is the difficult part if someone tuning the room as symmetrical. However, this the the first basic starting point trying to appreciate the location and the spread of sweet spot(s). Also almost all listeners do not have the expensive analysers and recorder. The "sweet" spot won't be far from the center distance away from speakers. One way to handle the situation is to find practical inexpensive ways in eliminating sound interferences at the best convenient listening location(s). Then call it the sweet spot(s).
My AV receiver can adjust phase angle relationships using DSP. Also, it will EQ each speaker individually. Now. if I could add DSP into my old Hitachi HA-330 that would be ideal. Very few speaker positioning options at my house right now.
I have Triton 1s but I'm still going to mess around with your suggestions. You never now til you try! Unfortunately, my room is a mess for 2 channel listening.
wrong : toe your speakers extremely in ! Most mids and highs will sound less loud off axis than on- axis , and the more off axis you go , the less loud they will sound (beaming) . Ofcourse the further the distance from the speaker , the less loud it sounds . Now if you toe in such that the left speaker is pointed toward your right ear and the right speaker at you left ear , the following will happen if you move your head to the left from the sweet spot : your left ear will move closer to the left speaker and should gain loudness from that proximity effect but at the same time it will move even more off-axis from the left speaker and thus loosing loudness from beaming . All in all the 2 effects will balance out quite a bit . The same goes for right speaker and and for your other ear . Within a fair amount of movement either to the left or right , both speakers will retain their loudness and thus your sweet spot is now extended
A neat trick is to toe in very much so that left and right center axle X somewhere in between the listener and the speakers. That way if you have a sofa at the listening position then you will get good sound also if you sit on the left or right side in the sofa. So if you're sitting to the right of the sweet spot then the left speaker that are furtherst away will be aims towards you and the closet that right speaker. by that should be loudest will be pointing away from you... If someone understood that :)
Optimize I tried that long ago and was not convinced by it. Also looked awkward. At this moment I have them toed in just a bit pointed at my listening position but I will try to not toe them in and see hiw that works out. Also it looks better in my living room because of the large baseplate under my speakers.
I've tried this and can say that it works to give a wider center image positioning area. However my OCD can't let my speakers be aimed that way so I usually just do it temporarily.
Optimize Thank you! You describe the British setup method of widening the stereo sweet spot called "Intensified Stereo". Speaker axis cross in front of the listener. Remember this is to cover a wider area with an acceptable stereo effect, rather than for a dedicated listening seat for just one listener! Jim Smith's book (Get Better Sound) covers this in some detail and it works for some setups. Usually follow the speaker manufacturer's advice, but use your ears to see if you like the effect. If I want visitors to enjoy stereo off axis it's easy to tow in more for an evening;-)
Carlito Melon ahh, thanks for the background information. It is little bit strange that this was not brought up in the video. But we can always broaden the knowledge base here in the comments. :)
Dragan Antonijević I not expert, but I don't think omnidirectional will help in this matter. Omnidirectional will help in getting the same tweeter acuracy in any place in the room, but they can't make the stereo image identical as the one you hear in the sweet spot produce by a conventional bookshelf speaker.
Walter, I am old and I love classic things: a dynamic two-way speaker with a simple crossover and a good box. And no omnidirectional loudspeakers. But if I have to answer the question (and to choose), then that's MBL: speakers are slices of sphere that pulsate and thus create the same sound all around... great sweet spot and... so cool.
I can't agree with Paul on this one. My experience has been that toeing in the speakers, even to the point that the axis' of the speakers crosses well in front of the centrally seated listener, actually widens the sweet spot, albeit at the expense of image specificity. Perhaps, Paul was thinking about dipoles like his Infinity IRS's or bi-poles though, in which case I would agree.
Somehow you deleted my last post, i usually think you have an decent view on hifi things for being a hi-end manufacturer. But on this topic your so wrong, wide speaker dispersion does not help to keep the correct sound image! as soon as you get diffrent distance between the speakers the hole thing will colaplse and thats only inches you have to move side wayes to tamper with a perfekt sound stage.
I upgraded my system about 6 months ago. I used the audiophiles guide to do my new speaker setup. I could not get a wide Sweet Spot. Until I saw this video, about the CD case. I removed the rear carpet spikes on the speakers, so that they tilted upward. Fantastic Improvement. The Sweet Spot is now the size of my entire couch. Thanks.
Next try hanging your speakers from the ceiling
Thanks Paul for so much common sense.
I will be re-aiming my speakers to look for basically a wider soundstage.
Thank you. I've moved mine away from the wall, adjusting the bass-coupling and I've also put a CD case beneath each cabinet. It's already sounding much better :)
Hi PS Audio. I put into practise your suggestions and wow what a difference, Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Thank you for sharing. I've been in this hobby a long time but I'm sure you have heard more systems than I have.
I did try changing the toe in of my speakers, lessening it to almost none, it helped greatly. The distance apart i cant change, but when the wife isnt home i pull the speakers out from the wall as well. All these things definately help.
I've been consuming your audio-knowledge content for a bit now, but this is the first time seeing this video. I've got a wider-than-deep listening area, and with my Maggie LRS', it's been a bit of a challenge to focus them properly. Thank you for this vid, 'cause I think it will help with my particular set-up. I love your content, and you as it's presenter, so keep up the fascinatingly good work. You're helping, I believe, many more people than you even realize. =)
I have my Monitor Audio BX6’s towed - in with “laser accuracy”, so I’m going to try turning them out a little. Never heard about the CD cases thing, so I’ll try that too. I already have them out from the wall. Thanks for this video.
You are a genius Paul... Great info for the new Audiophile who's just getting started.... ( Not me I have been a audiophile my whole life, it's just in the last 20 yrs that I have taken it seriously).
Well, one sad truth in high end audio is that... THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!! (sounds like the Highlander motto...). There can only be just one perfect seat, for the lucky (and perhaps the only with true demanding audio tastes) owner and developer of the system. (Don't worry, it's usually a lonely hobby, lonely hours, night hours, you know...). At very close distance to that unique sweet-spot, very few others will ask for more (my wife would always rather take a very loose, multitasking listen, from the kitchen-if not at all!)...
Full Ranger
So funny but so true!
"Laser" @ 3:58.
Ok, now I'm going to adjust the feet on my Elac's and tilt them back. Love these videos Paul.
You can toe them out slightly if you want to sacrifice your 'perfect' sweet spot for a better overall sound regardless of where you are sitting. It will help keep the channels separated and sounding good over a wider range, but you won't really have a 'sweet spot' anymore at all. I would keep them straight forward though, with no inward toeing at all. Pigeon toed speakers are for introverts.
Personally, I think it is better to move the speakers forward as that will widen the sweet spot with no sacrifice at all.
I’m gonna try your advice on tilting up my speakers a bit by adjusting the front spikes. Great video!
Another thing you can try, recommended by speaker manufacturers Audio Note and Aerial Acoustics (I own both), is to cross them to meet in front of you. Audio Note says vertex should be six feet in front of your listening location. Aerial likes it for home theater, especially...
Just adjusted my speakers, Snell Type E IV, definitely sound more open. Thanks for the tip
Good basic advice again from Mr McGowan.
Changed everything. Best mod I ever did was move the chair to the sweet spot.
Consider using the Altec Stonehenge with the new Great Plains Audio 604 driver with wider dispersion Mantaray tweeter, plus using a Carver preamp with Sonic Holography!
Moved up to ribbon dipole speakers -- Switching Sonic Holography into the circuit blew our minds! We're now hearing a crazy surround-like presentation, with no apparent room boundaries, neither walls, nor floor or ceiling! Only a couple of audiophiles complained about hearing musical elements in *front* of the speakers, but the rest of us simply enjoyed it. Cheers! :D
Hi Az Usmb I also have a pair of dipole RIbbons (Oskar Heil Kithara's) Any advice on placement? Ive even tried pointing them facing eachother in front of the listening area.. Really trying to get it dialed in.
Almost all domestic listening rooms are practically unsymmetric (inclusive of furniture and construction.) This is the difficult part if someone tuning the room as symmetrical. However, this the the first basic starting point trying to appreciate the location and the spread of sweet spot(s). Also almost all listeners do not have the expensive analysers and recorder. The "sweet" spot won't be far from the center distance away from speakers. One way to handle the situation is to find practical inexpensive ways in eliminating sound interferences at the best convenient listening location(s). Then call it the sweet spot(s).
Well bang goes the studio monitor set up! Toed in equilateral triangle..
My AV receiver can adjust phase angle relationships using DSP. Also, it will EQ each speaker individually. Now. if I could add DSP into my old Hitachi HA-330 that would be ideal. Very few speaker positioning options at my house right now.
Especially true with horn speakers, not toeing them in!
Very interesting video. Thanks.
I have Klipsch RP280s, I don't toe in because of the horn. So I point them straight a head which i have a bigger (wider) sweet spot. IMO
Interesting stuff. A lot is in direct contradiction to what Sandy Gross says. But some things I may try.
I have Triton 1s but I'm still going to mess around with your suggestions. You never now til you try! Unfortunately, my room is a mess for 2 channel listening.
wrong : toe your speakers extremely in ! Most mids and highs will sound less loud off axis than on- axis , and the more off axis you go , the less loud they will sound (beaming) . Ofcourse the further the distance from the speaker , the less loud it sounds . Now if you toe in such that the left speaker is pointed toward your right ear and the right speaker at you left ear , the following will happen if you move your head to the left from the sweet spot : your left ear will move closer to the left speaker and should gain loudness from that proximity effect but at the same time it will move even more off-axis from the left speaker and thus loosing loudness from beaming . All in all the 2 effects will balance out quite a bit . The same goes for right speaker and and for your other ear . Within a fair amount of movement either to the left or right , both speakers will retain their loudness and thus your sweet spot is now extended
A neat trick is to toe in very much so that left and right center axle X somewhere in between the listener and the speakers.
That way if you have a sofa at the listening position then you will get good sound also if you sit on the left or right side in the sofa.
So if you're sitting to the right of the sweet spot then the left speaker that are furtherst away will be aims towards you and the closet that right speaker. by that should be loudest will be pointing away from you...
If someone understood that :)
Optimize I tried that long ago and was not convinced by it. Also looked awkward.
At this moment I have them toed in just a bit pointed at my listening position but I will try to not toe them in and see hiw that works out. Also it looks better in my living room because of the large baseplate under my speakers.
I've tried this and can say that it works to give a wider center image positioning area. However my OCD can't let my speakers be aimed that way so I usually just do it temporarily.
Optimize Thank you!
You describe the British setup method of widening the stereo sweet spot called "Intensified Stereo". Speaker axis cross in front of the listener.
Remember this is to cover a wider area with an acceptable stereo effect, rather than for a dedicated listening seat for just one listener!
Jim Smith's book (Get Better Sound) covers this in some detail and it works for some setups.
Usually follow the speaker manufacturer's advice, but use your ears to see if you like the effect.
If I want visitors to enjoy stereo off axis it's easy to tow in more for an evening;-)
Carlito Melon ahh, thanks for the background information.
It is little bit strange that this was not brought up in the video. But we can always broaden the knowledge base here in the comments. :)
Optimize . Yes , Paul goes off on tangents easily. He clarifies in this comment section this time though ;-)
I'm so used to headphones. I like to have my speakers almost right beside my head. That way, I get the full surround stereo image that I like.
If I'm sitting out of the sweet spot area I adjust the left/right ballance.
By omni directional speakers. (Ohm Walsh from US, ''affordable'' around 3g. or MBL German, around 300.000 g!)
Dragan Antonijević I not expert, but I don't think omnidirectional will help in this matter. Omnidirectional will help in getting the same tweeter acuracy in any place in the room, but they can't make the stereo image identical as the one you hear in the sweet spot produce by a conventional bookshelf speaker.
Walter, I am old and I love classic things: a dynamic two-way speaker with a simple crossover and a good box. And no omnidirectional loudspeakers. But if I have to answer the question (and to choose), then that's MBL: speakers are slices of sphere that pulsate and thus create the same sound all around... great sweet spot and... so cool.
Absolutely 100% correct . Omni's have a room wide sweet spot
I use MBL speakers. Yes they have fantastic large sweet spot.
Very good advice
No need to stop at a CD case thickness. Mine are much higher and it made a huge difference in sweet spot and soundstage.
I can't agree with Paul on this one. My experience has been that toeing in the speakers, even to the point that the axis' of the speakers crosses well in front of the centrally seated listener, actually widens the sweet spot, albeit at the expense of image specificity. Perhaps, Paul was thinking about dipoles like his Infinity IRS's or bi-poles though, in which case I would agree.
How do you expand The Sweet spot? Add more sugar! Hahaaa
Very helpful
Bag the old speakers and buy a big 7 ft tall pair of line arrays and some 1,200 watt Amps .
that's how English tap water works :))
Facing the speakers away from each other is another trick. But thats not for audioholics:)
use headphones
Somehow you deleted my last post, i usually think you have an decent view on hifi things for being a hi-end manufacturer.
But on this topic your so wrong, wide speaker dispersion does not help to keep the correct sound image! as soon as you get diffrent distance between the speakers the hole thing will colaplse and thats only inches you have to move side wayes to tamper with a perfekt sound stage.