Setting up a GMAC Hub Motor for Virtual Electronic Freewheeling (with a Phaserunner)
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- This video shows the basic setup parameters in the Phaserunner software for a GMAC motor and also illustrates the new virtual freewheeling feature that is available in the V1.1 Phaserunner software suite.
With the electronic freewheeling active, the motor controller can inject a small amount of current into the motor in order to overcome the core losses that are responsible for the small amount of motor drag present in hub motors that can do regenerative braking. The hub motor will feel exactly like a motor with an internal freewheel when you are pedaling it as a bike without assistance, but you'll still be able to benefit from regenerative braking whenever needed.
This does require some power from the battery pack, and depending on the motor model and your cruising speed it can range anywhere from 10 watts to 40 watts. However, in most riding situations (especially in any stop and go traffic) you stand to gain more energy into the battery from regen than you expend in overcoming the drag. See
endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...
For a detailed discussion and much field data on this point. - Наука та технологія
My GMAC8T Phaserunner CA3 all came perfectly programmed in the kit ; GRIN Tech are great people !!! THANK YOU !!
Also, the wheel/motor was perfectly trued and balanced.
All I did was set the battery parameters and changed the "Start" to 8mph (come on, who needs a boost below that, LoL !)
And enabled Re-Gen Braking. (saves brake pads and is fun)
And I bolted all the parts together onto my 29er MTB.
I have NO idea how anyone could install the motor without scratching the bike's paint somewhere.
Hey right on and glad to hear that. We accept a few paint scratches as pretty harmless collateral damage for all the benefits of having the motor on the bike!
These are soooo good and a great point of reference, thanks!!!
Thanks for explaining Max Regen Phase Current vs Max Regen Batt Current at 1:10. I had read about this in the PhaseRunner manual when I did my initial setup but left Max Regen Phase Current at 40A and promptly forgot about it. Now I understand why my low speed braking torque has been so disappointing. I just tried it at 90A. What a difference.
Yeah 40A was a silly default for us to have in the Phaserunner's setup file originally, and many other people also left this at 40A and didn't get full regen potential and never realized what they were missing. We've since updated that so all the PR's going out the door have both the forwards and regen phase current limits defaulting at 90 amps instead.
Unreal Job guys!! the only reason i have direct drive is because that clever little program didn't exist.
I figured you would've had to use a torque sensor but nope. Genius!
Hi, nice feature. I would like to suggest to look at the same functionality in nucular controller. It has two separate settings for current value at 20% rpm and 80% rpm since cogging torque grows with rpm.
Super wonderful video!
Keep this up Grin Technologies.
I don't like geared motors anyway. I'm a direct drive girl. 💜
Ha, I've always been a direct drive kinda guy too! But this motor has the ability to switch allegiances...
Anyways the virtual freewheeling feature on the Phaserunner works just as well with DD hubs so you'd still be able to indulge in this.
@@GrinTechnologies Comment gold! I just tried this out on my 5T Grin Hub DD motor. Without Virtual Electronic Freewheeling, the wheel spins to a stop in about 8 seconds. At 0.66A it takes 25 seconds. At 0.7A it never stops. While pedaling at cruising speed, it was drawing only 8 watts from the battery. This will help on long sunless days when I'm running on pedal power.
@@solarEbike Well I hope you don't have too many long sunless days in your adventure ahead, but if it does happen we're glad that this will help. Even in cloudy weather your panels must put out more than 8 watts I imagine? You could probably bump up that injection current and have a "virtual CdA/Crr reduction" too and help offset some of the other drag forces while you are at it! ;-)
Great motor. Wish they made a lower powered version.
Hi Justin, thanks for the video, very clear and of course 👍👌 for this new solution for geared motors!
I understand at 2:30 that when you brake this 'electronic clutch' disconnects.
Is this true and how does it work ?
More to the point, once you use the brakes in this system then instead of injecting small current to overcome the core losses, the controller switches into full regen mode. So it goes from using 10-30 watts into generating many 100's of watts. The main point I wanted to make is that after the motor is totally stopped, the 'electronic clutch' as it is won't kick in again until after you have lightly pressed and released the throttle. It's a small nuisance to the way that ASI has implemented this feature with their controller firmware.
Would you please do a demo of the sound from the different motors you offer?
Justin, that is awsome!. Maybe one idea to find the sweet spot where the motor won't continu freewheeling forever would be to use the speed signal and "detect" when the slope of speed change is near zero and combine that with a dead time parameter where it "guess" the limit has been reached : if the speed slope is near zero and the dead time is reached.. so that freewheeling current value would be found... .. or maybe having a feature that autotune it by trying various current and use that method and when the dead time is reached... what do you think?
Hey Stephane, that's actually a great idea. The software could totally run a little auto detection routine where it gradually reduces the freewheeling current until it sees that the motor is effectively slowed to a stop, and then save that as the final setting. I'll put it in in our V1.2 features wishlist!
I recently capture this kind of function in the Sachs Mobility middrive. This middrive do certain use a two gear reduction. So the drag would be noticeable if the freewheel is between the motor and the first gear. The marketing and intended user feedback is lower drag above the legal limit but it add consumption above the limit. The public strategy will be (to my guess) to hide the drag consumption and prise the low drag as an unspoken mechnical quality.
As an producer do you have legal limits on this feature?
I bought a GMAC motor and Phaserunner controller last year (together, in the same order). Is VEF enabled when Grin tunes the phaserunner to the GMAC prior to shipping? Thanks!
Sir,would u show me how to get this software and connection cable?I am trying to change speed limit since 2 years,pl help
Consider adding safety handlebars (go under your legs)
Can i use a kelly controller for the gmac motor? I have the KLS7212S. It can handle 120a if i'm not mistaken and hight voltage and it is compact
You can certainly try it, it needs to work with high eRPM motors that have low winding inductance, and some BLDC controllers struggle with that.
@GrinTechnologies
Can I use a generic Direct Drive hub motor with this controller?
Thanks
Yes, for sure.
I am very interested in that feature. Is this virtual freewheel going to allow to run faster downhill as well? I know someone who is stuck to max 55 km/h downhill on a DD because of the regen. If I understand, the regen will only work with an ebraking, from the moment you set up the electronic freewheel.
Hi Benoit, thie VEF feature won't do that, but the field weakening feature that is in the Phaserunner and Baserunner controllers sure will. We don't have a video yet on field weakening but it is explained in the user manuals and we posted details in the endless-sphere forum as well.
@@GrinTechnologies I am testing the function since a week now and still wonder what hapens going downhill without pedalling or when max assistance speed is reached - it should also help the bicycle not being slowed down by the regen force, should'nt it? I don't have a steep hill nearby so I cannot test it myself now. The freewheel amps will prevent the regen I assume. Is that correct?
Can this feature be used with direct drive motors? Would it be less efficient?
It works flawlessly with direct drive motors too of course. Or even for mid-drive motors where you want to keep the motor always engaged with the clutch so that there is no startup delay.
use an expensive wheel to determine how long the current continues for.
Does this only work with the Throttle? Does it work when riding with assistance?
Yes, since the assistance using the V3 Cycle Analyst is effectively done via the throttle signal.
It's not clear to me how you are communicating with the controller. Are you using a windows PC and if so, what is the interface? Do you need to download and install a GRIN application?
You use the Phaserunner suite software which we produced for Windows, MacOS, Linux, and Andoird. ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html#SoftwareSuite
Can this feature be added to cycle analyst?
This is a feature intrinsic to the motor controller and not the Cycle Analyst. The Cycle Analyst only sees the battery current in the system and not the motor phase current, meaning it's not in the best position to apply this small offset current when the throttle is off. But we have considered it.
Hi, is there any way to have this on all the time when at zero throttle? Or is there a way to reduce the minimum throttle to act like vfw?
It's on all the time there is zero throttle when the wheel is moving as long as you give it some tiny bump of non zero thottle to get it stated.
Top speed
Does it have soft start like bafang.
With both the phaserunner and the V3 Cycle Analyst you can add ramp limits to controls how smooth or aggressive the power is able to come on. Though this feature is much less important when you have a torque based throttle (like the phaserunner) versus a regular PWM throttle (like a typical ebike controller).
Where do I get this..? I'm hoping to get two hub kits for me and my son. I had a stroke and being a single Dad trying to keep life fun and interesting... 🏋️☯️👍✌️I was looking at kits and tubed to find you guys...
Hey John, the kit is available here: www.ebikes.ca/shop/ready-to-roll-kits/rear-rtr/gmac-ready-to-roll-kit.html and info is here: www.ebikes.ca/product-info/gmac.html
l'm opting for a 2-motor ebike for my next build. I will be registering it as a motorcycle and it will be a pavement-only machine. I want to run a mid-drive as my primary motor with tall gearing and use a hub motor to help launch me off the line. Does this electronic freewheeling work at higher speeds too? I'd prefer to run my direct drive hub to allow for regen braking but also allow it to freewheel with minimal resistance once the mid drive pushes me past the hub's top speed. Or... am I going to need a geared hub and give up on regen?
Hey Mr Brown, sounds like a good project but your logic here in motor usage is flawed. You should be using the hub motor as the primary motor, and only engage the mid-drive when you need extra torque for hill climbing. This will be more efficient than using the mid motor all the time, and will also greatly reduce wear and maintenance on your drivetrain. See ua-cam.com/video/Ub4EP2_mAds/v-deo.html for a discussion on this topic.
To answer the question, the VEF works at high speeds too, though you will need to enable the field weakening feature if you want to run with no drag above the speed where back emf voltage exceeds your battery voltage.
@@GrinTechnologies I would normally agree with you about my logic being backwards. However, this next build is a test bed for a bigger future project. The "mid drive" is a massive go kart motor with a custom fabricated motor mount that requires the pedals and cranks to be removed to make room. The goal:
My dream motorcycle has always been a 1992-1994 Honda CBR900RR Fireblade. I bought one many years back, did a full restoration, and rode it for years. The engine blew last summer and a lack of available parts makes another restoration impossible. I'm converting it to electric next winter and this new ebike build is the test bed that will help me make that conversion properly. The Fireblade will need exceptionally tall gearing on its main motor as my goal is a 150mph+ capable machine. I want to embarrass every rider who owns a Zero. I plan on experimenting with hubs to get off the line and facilitate the massive top-end performance. My ebike build isn't a scaled up bicycle for the purpose of owning a fast ebike. It's a scaled down motorcycle so I can get my dream bike back on the road and keep it there.
Where is your dealer garage service in India in a.p
Is it possible to use a Bafang torque sensing BB with the MAC controller?
There is no such thing as a MAC controller really, MAC only makes motors. In our kits we pair the GMAC motor with the Phaserunner_L10 controller since they can be tuned very well to each other but you can in principle use 3rd party controllers too as long as they play nice at high eRPM's. With the V3 Cycle Analyst you can use the Bafang and almost any other bottom bracket torque sensor just fine with any controller that has a CA plug on it.
@@GrinTechnologies awesome! thanks for the info. Is there a good contact # for those of us in the USA to use? When is a good time to call?
@@GrinTechnologies My Phaserunner and Gmac seem to pair together well! I am very pleased with the performance so far! I want to do regen braking Justin. I have 2 handles/levers but what else do I need to install that? I am assuming a connector cable to my CA V3 from at least one of my brake levers? I was just on Grin and searched but no luck so far.
What would be the top speed of this motor at 72v NMC battery and 29in rim
www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
More specifically: www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=GMAC10T&batt=B7223_AC&cont=cust_25_90_0.02_V&wheel=29i&axis=kph
Note the final temp and overheat in times, and adjust the throttle slider to find speed levels that can be sustained longer term when you are running with a 72V pack like this.
I am getting around 55 kph on my Gmac with 72v, 18ah battery, and nearly that uphill as well. I have only been riding about 4 days so far, less than 100km. I weigh about 175 lbs. I am on a Rocky Mtn Vertex 10 mtb. Lotsa torque too! The main problem is, when going that fast I need to keep my eyes on the road, not looking down at the CA V3. But I glimpsed 54 kph going up a big hill and I am seeing around 1,400 watts with open throttle at times. I still have lots to learn about the CA V3. That's why I am here now.
Is this function also triggered by turning the wheel forwards rather than applying throttle?
Unfortunately it does require an initial tap of throttle signal to start the process. We have asked ASI to give us a firmware option to start it from wheel motion as well, but don't expect that any time soon
@@GrinTechnologies Can it now be triggered by the wheels?
What is that noise at occurs at very low RPM?
Electric motor cogging torque applied thru the transmission. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque
Actually the main noise there was the fender slightly rubbing against the tire. There is also a bit of noise from the internal gears inside the motor.
is this possible with a baserunner?
Yes, the baserunner and phaserunner controllers share exactly the same firmware and control circuits.
@@GrinTechnologies Excellent that's what I thought.
Why isn't this in the manual?
It will be in the next release of the phaserunner manual, the current one predated this feature in the software.
I recommend you split your store into 'stuff to turn former bicycle into emoped' and 'stuff to turn into electric bicycle.' Would add clarity when it comes to differing classes of machine.
Who is making funny faces behind the camera?
I recently capture this kind of function in the Sachs Mobility middrive. This middrive do certain use a two gear reduction. So the drag would be noticeable if the freewheel is between the motor and the first gear. The marketing and intended user feedback is lower drag above the legal limit but it add consumption above the limit. The public strategy will be (to my guess) to hide the drag consumption and prise the low drag as an unspoken mechnical quality.
As an producer do you have legal limits on this feature?