Unfortunately the STR and DEX attributes are poorly suited to simulate combat. As fighting is an important part of any RPG, instead of trying to shoehorn these stats to fit the purpose, it's better to add two new skills for Melee and Ballistic weapons and have any relevant attribute modifiers apply to these. This is what WFRP does and it works much better!
Real life fact = The average English long bow most commonly used in the 14-15th century had a draw of 175 lbs. So thouse lilttle english archers that trained with Longbow feom age 10 up Had back mucles like olympic lifters. That long bow could shoot 250 yards and with a bodkin tip would punch through any armor and useualy the horse as well. Thats how the english defeated the french when out numbered by heavy knights almost 100 to one. So strength is a large part of Archery.
Problem is strength-based fighters are ONLY better at doing melee damage. The dex-based fighter will out-shine it in most combat situations. E.g. Trying to ambush a group of enemies - oh you can't because heavy armour effs stealth Facing a flying opponent - oh your strength fighter can either spend the majority of their actions grappling it to try to keep it in range or running/climbing to try to get into melee, whereas your dex-based fighter pulls out a bow and hammers the enemy. Facing a spellcaster or enemy with breath-weapons - oops your strength fighter is taking tons of damage cause they can't make their Dex-saves Trying to control enemy movement - oh no you rolled shit initiative so now the baddies all get to go before you, whereas your Dex-fighter with Sentinel can run up first and keep them away from the squishies. (Even with Alert to make up the low initiative Sentinel lets you do damage and makes movement 0 whereas grappling only makes movement 0). The good class where a strength-based character is overall better than a dex-based one is Barbarian. Though for pure melee DPS your STR-paladin is probably the best option. Outside of combat strength is probably more useful than dex, and it can be a problem if a party doesn't have any strength-based character to e.g. paddle a boat against a current, break down doors, move heavy obstacles, carry unconscious party members, jump across chasms/lava rivers, prevent a source of information from running off, , etc... Whereas dex is mainly important for stealth, and fall-damage since probably the rogue will be doing the lock-picking or pickpocketing or thievery and recon (though a criminal-dex-fighter could substitute for a rogue if you don't have one but why wouldn't you just play a rogue?). So basically every party should have one strength-based character that is either a paladin (for pure melee DPS) or a barbarian (for tanking).
@@agilemind6241 strength based fighters are much better at controlling because they can get genuine value out of shield master. Strength base doesn't mean dump Dex, it should be your third highest stat probably. You can also get alert if it really bothers you to not have all the initiative. They also do alot more damage, which is the primary utility of your fighter along with frontline
Dex should actually have very little to do with archery. Strength to draw and hold steady, and perception (So Wis?) to aim. Dex for bows is not actually sensical if you understand archery even a little.
@@Jimalcoatl dexterity is also involved because of your fingers. When firing a longbow you are most likely using your fingers to hold the string back. If you let the string go wrong it will mess up the shot. It's a lot of factors.
The main reason to go the Strength route (from the point of view of mechanics - there are always RP reasons, obviously) is that it frees you up to dump Dex (or at least put a 10 or 11 there), and to have better stats elsewhere. If you're planning to be a Strength-based fighter with big weapons and heavy armor, you won't need your Dex for AC, and the likelihood of having a better Constitution, Charisma, or any other stat increases. Also, having big weapons that require a higher strength to wield make sense if you have a higher likelihood of scoring criticals. We had a half-orc ranger in our game who dumped his Dex, but wielded a great axe. He was slow, had bad armor, and had bad luck to boot, but often, when he was forced to use his half-orc Resilient ability - he was dropped to 0 hp, but stayed up at 1 instead - he would score a critical, and do 3d12 (extra d12 for Savage Attacker) +3 (Strength bonus), which usually finished enemies off. Once he got the extra attack, the chances for doing that went up. For a Champion Fighter who crits on a 19, that kind of combination makes a lot of sense, too. On the whole, I agree that Dex wins. The fight between Oberyn and the Mountain was kind of unrepresentative, and Oberyn lost not because of Gregor Clegane's Strength, but because of his own low Wisdom. A far more typical fight is the fight between Bronn and Ser Vardis Egan in the Eyrie (Season 1). Egan is heavily armored and relying on his heavy sword, while Bronn is the typical Dex-based Battlemaster (possibly a Swashbuckler), and he wins handily by wearing Egan down. And a bit of cheating.
I would also like to bring forward the idea that if you have a Dexterity fighter vs a Strength fighter, the Strength fighter in D&D would actually usually win. Even with the Dexterity Bonus, Heavy Armor in general has better Armor class, as well as all the best weapons being Strength weapons. And in Sword vs. sword combat, all those skills and saving throws won't necessarily help any. The only major advantage they actually get is their higher Initiative, and luck alone can easily take that away as well. Sure in the long-run the Dexterity character gets a lot more, but don't think the simpler Strength man is hopelessly under-powered.
Hard to say, because the Dex fighter is going to likely have two-weapon fighting, and various other shenanigans (e.g. Hunter's Mark, or Sneak Attack) that increase the damage of _each attack_. But the proper comparison is not head-to head, which is a relatively rare, or artificial situation. The comparison is precisely long-term, over a character's whole career, because that's how characters are actually played.
Boris Stremlin Well yes, but I would hardly say that Two weapon fighting compares to a 2-handed weapon, considering you'll only ever get one extra attack. And Sneak Attacks can only do so much considering the class it's based off of only ever gets one attack per round anyways. Different types of characters get different advantages, but Strength Warriors don't get the short end of the stick too hard, for example Totem Barbarians can get resistance to almost every damage type in the game. It's all what you build and what you go for.
Dex bear barbarian with 10+CON+DEX+Shield Yeah try to hit and or hurt me I dare you. Also be a Halfling and ride atop a Medium strength Barb with Wolf at level three If you have mounted combatant you can draw every attack towards you allowing him to get advantage from reckless and you always have advantage cause wolf. He will be succeeding saving throws as well cause mounted combatant so Yeah OP Combo Two of my players did this and it's awesome they are death come to walk the earth
Funny thing about bows is that it actually requires a lot of strength and more strength allows you to wield a heavier bow that will go farther and hit harder
You undersell strength fighters. - Pole-arm Masters *must* be strength based. - Great Weapon Masters *must* be strength based. - Shield Masters benefit from having high athletics (shove as bonus action). If you're playing a fighter you want to be taking advantage of at least one feat. Otherwise why not just play a ranger or rogue? Almost all of the best combat feats lean towards strength builds. I'd say the only top tier dexterity based fighter build is an archer (due to sharpshooter). NB: Also fighters tend to have very high HP, so taking extra damage from failed dexterity saves isn't such a big deal. Meanwhile a dexterity fighter can be *wrecked* by spells like Entangle (strength save into strength checks). NB2: Also even sword + board strength based fighters have more weapons options. That +2 magical flaming club is worthless to dexterity based characters, but the strength fighter doesn't mind swapping down his damage dice for those amazing magical effects.
combine polearm master with sheild master and use a quarter staff and a shield. stupid powerful, especially if you go eldricht knight and pick up combat caster. you're knocking people down, you get to do a cantrip as a reaction (and you combine it with that TEE cantrip that has your weapon do bonus thunder damage) and then you have your regular attack. It's all pretty awesome!
aceflashheart Can't grapple on Dex. Not to mention, max ac from armor is 17 for light vs 18 for heavy, unless you score a tome which certainly isn't guaranteed. And Dex builds can't leverage the higher damage or reach weapons, and damage types are fairly limited as well giving a disadvantage early on vs things like skeletons. Dex builds on fighters aren't for combat prowess. They are for skill based fighters that rely on dexterity skills for utility, more because of their background. Dex is viable, but it doesn't give you a defensive benefit so much as it compensates for the drawback of qualifying for less armor.
Both the pole-arm master extra attack and the monks unarmed flurry take your bonus action, in addition a monk has far less room to get feats than a fighter who often not only requires less ability scores to be powerful but also has more ability score increases.
In our group the DM throws in the occasional audit to make sure that your character can carry all the stuff you have listed on your sheet. Folks who dump strength generally fail.
Most people don't, in my experience. It's extra book keeping most players don't want to deal with. Most players don't even think about how they're carrying around all of their stuff. It's just words on a paper. That, and players have been spoiled by the lack of realistic encumbrance mechanics in video games. They're usually based on weight or space, but rarely both, and you never actually see an item on a character's person unless it's equipped. Ideally, you try to get ahold of a bag of holding early on, so you don't have to explain how you're carrying around all of those weapons and armor from the last 5 fights. You just put them in the bag and forget about it, sort of. Even the bag of holding has a carrying capacity, but it weighs very little, and isn't cumbersome arms and armor, so it's a good solution until you can get to town and sell stuff. Alternatively, buy a horse and say that everything not on your person is in the saddle bags. Also, remember that gold is heavy. Every 10gp weighs a pound. This is the same for other coins. Ideally, you want almost all of your money converted to platinum, if not invested into gems and other light weight valuables so that it's easy to carry around. When you find a hoard of coins, don't forget to acknowledge how much all of those coins actually weigh. Your party might be better off just leaving the copper and silver if they don't have a means to carry it all.
Of course, you could always throw the items to the person or being in the party with the +18 Strength modifier that also happens to bring down buildings in fits of rage and frenzy lol. (Like my old Warforged Juggernaut / Frenzied Berserker / Barbarian / Fighter / Legendary Dreadnought lol)
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I'm still in the camp that strength is balanced, and also a bit bummed out that as far as i could see in the comment section you guys never responded to any of the well reasoned comments pointing out why. But if you still think strength is underpowered, here is a simple fix, implement the war bow. Warbows are longbows built to have massive draw weight for maximum penetrative power and require strength to use. It's a martial ranged weapon and the profile is the same as a longbow except the damage is 1d10 and it has the Powerdraw feature. Powerdraw. A ranged weapon with this quality use Strength for to hit and damage rolls instead of Dexterity. Now not only do you have a more realistic depiction of a bow in your game, but your strength characters are better at melee AND ranged combat than DEX characters who are now primarily good for stealth and skill use and you didn't even need to alter any basic mechanics of the game.
The exclusion of certain properties from certain types of weapons is a basic mechanic of the game. Creating a strength ranged weapon is as powerful a change as bestowing a new class ability, like Shillelagh or Hex Warrior. Probably more so, since it's available to all classes at any level.
Changing the Rapier from a D8 to a D6 would be a very good change. I say that as someone that refuses to play strength based characters in heavy armor because I prefer sneaking and dodging. But I recognize that dexterity is a little bit too powerful compared to strength, especially for the min-maxers that use a rapier. Strength based characters should have weapons that deal more damage than the dexterity based characters.
I think it's balanced. The weapons that do the most damage are strength based. Plate armor allows for an AC of 18 where even with a maxed out dex of 20 and studded leather armor you only get an AC of 17. If you look at the martial classes they are designed to better take advantage of the strength based weapons. Examples. The champion fighter's improved crit range means that damage gap between weapons shows even more. Even without the great weapon fighting style a great sword does an average of 14 weapon damage on a crit while a rapier does an average of 9. If you play a barbarian your brutal critical feature hits harder with a great axe than a rapier. At level 9 average weapon damage for a barbarian on a crit with a great axe is 17.5 and average for a rapier is 13.5. When the barbarian reaches level 17 that difference has become 32.5 weapon damage on a crit for a great axe and 22.5 for the rapier. On the surface the dex weapons seem better but when you crunch the numbers and check the math the strength ones are coming out on top and that offsets the other benefits of dex.
Ryan Stoyan the biggest thing is that pam, gwm, and shield master all work better for str. builds. Without feats a deuling rapier is going to outclass the greataxe in ac, and remain within a point of damage. With feats the game changes, suddenly that level 8 str. fighter is making three attacks per turn, each with +10 damage, and has both evasion and a competent dex save.
I feel I should point out that you actually do fire a bow with your strength. he penetrating power (real world equivalent of damage) is determined by draw weight on the bow string. the heavier the draw weight, the more power the arrow would have. also, the heavier the draw weight, the more force (see also: strength) is required to pull back the string. so yes, you do fire a bow with your strength.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that D&D is a team game. In my current game we have two rogues so dexterity is covered. By making my fighter strength based he really shines in those situations where the group needs a strongman. By RAW athletics covers more things than acrobatics and I believe this was intentional on the part of the designers since dexterity is already such a powerful and versatile stat.
I compromised and gave my Bard 14 strength and dexterity, then maxed charisma. He's not very good at swinging his longsword, but he gets the job done. Dexterity and Charisma are your two super stats in 5e. Charisma is your social stat, and dexterity your general purpose stat. Technically you should use strength for a longbow, because you're not drawing a 180 pound warbow with your agility.
I usually use Strength and have a 14 DeX and use medium armor but that's if your rolling for stats and get lucky I honestly feel it all depends on the stats you are given on which one to choose
I know this comment is old but I believe you're misunderstanding how Extra Attack works. When you take an Attack as an action you get to make a second (or third, or fourth) one. If you take Shove as an action you do not get to attack a downed opponent on the same round, assuming you don't use something like Action Surge of course.
@@islayprettylies9485 In the PHB under Shoving A Creature it says "If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them." (PHB 195) So the PHB specifically calls out that you CAN shove for your first attack.
@@islayprettylies9485 I'm a big fan of the shield master feat. You can shove with a bonus action and keep all your (duelist) attacks to hit with advantage. Plus a shield gives you more than a +2 AC, as you can get magic shields that ultimately can add +5! Even the highest level monsters can find an AC of 27-28 daunting, that only a shield wielding fighter can get.
I think you miss some RP powers of the strength fighter. Muscles are visible, making bandits or bullies less likely to attack you, making intimidation easier, making it easier for the party to get mercenary work.
I kinda have a general idea for a houserule different damage system- divide slashing, peircing, and bludgeoning damage, and allow some weapons to switch between them. For example, while an arrow is piercing and so is a spear, a broadsword can not only slash, but also stab and even bludgeon with a murder strike, and a halberd can naturally do all 3. I then give each damage type a property- bludgeoning helps against armored opponents and revolves around your strength modifier, piercing revolves around dex and gains bonus to criticals, and slashing implements both and thus has the highest damage potential but no bonus. I think that may balance it out because a 20 strength barbarian might just crush armor, and a 20 dex ranger might get you strait in the heart, but a 15 strength 15 dex fighter might beat them both.
Strength also gets all the bigger heavier weapons that do tons and tons of damage, including the ever-deadly Greatsword. And Heavy Armor does have the advantage in that unless you manage to break that 20 Dex limit, it will always have the best AC of all armor types.
What? Plate armor is 18 AC. Light armor + 20 DEX is 17 AC. Add shields and you get to 20 vs 19. It's only one point, unless the strength guy gets a shield and the dex guy doesn't. But if you get a shield you're doing at most d8 damage, and the shieldless dex guy can do d6s with one additional attack due to dual wielding, which works out in his favour for damage _and_ reliability.
Poldovico And the Heavy armor guy doesn't need stats to get that 18 AC, they can just get it with money. I'm not saying that Dex warriors are bad, just that Strength isn't hopelessly outmatched to the point that it's worthless even trying.
Keep in mind magical stuff to - at the point of 20 of any stat you probably have magic ... Armor of invulnerability (when/if you get to it) is only plate and you get full immunity to nonmagical damage for 10 minutes, Scale mail isn't light and that means you can't wear dragon scale mail, Dwarven plate +2 ac, efreeti chain, plate armor of etheralness... meanwhile there is literally NO magic armor limited to light - in space of being able to do more things with your character there's no question you will have much more opportunity if your character is wearing plate...
The way I would fix a DEX vs STR fighter is by doing what KotOR 2 did with its' finesse feats, by making the finesse property so you only get to use your dex modifier on the attack roll, and you still have to use your STR modifier when determining your damage bonus
archery is a strength stat. archaeologist recognise longbow archers by the signs of massive development of upper body strength. there was a reason that archery was compulsory for men in England back in the middle ages. some warbows pull about 200 lbs keeping it steady required some beef. great show thanks for the effort
Heavy Armor Master is absolutely bonkers as a feat though. 3 DR against slashing, piercing and bludgeoning attacks is an insane amount of survivability at low levels.
I think the advantages of a strength fighter comes more from the utility it gives you as well as the multiple ways that you can improve it. So what I mean by that is that generally speaking, moving an enemy unless you're a warlock is generally pretty difficult. Whereas, as a strength based character you can attempt to shove, grapple, or knock prone an enemy nearly every turn, potentially removing enemies entirely or providing massive benefits to the party as a whole. As well, there are many, many ways provided via magical items to increase the strength stat, compared with dexterity where the only item I know off the top of my head is the manual of quickness of action. So potions, belts, gauntlets, all of these can provide massive strength improvements, even at uncommon levels, and the only dexterity equivalent is a very rare or legendary item.
I'd be a fan of a Dex to hit and Str to damage. Though in this way you'd also want casters to use two stats so caster-superiority doesn't reign supreme.
Dexterity is more versatile surely? Focusing on Dexterity over Strength gives you... -bonus to AC (depending on armour) - Finesse melee weapons -ranged weapons (bows, crossbows etc) -good stats for Acrobatics... -...Stealth -...Sleight of Hand etc.
Great weapon fighters do more damage, have more ac (or even with duel weilders rapiers), have more options for magic weapons, have more options foraging armour, have more useful feats, can actually grapple, can do athletics (whilst it's the only strength skill it might be the most applicable skill in the game depending on how your DM runs). Dex is still more versatile but it's not as much better as people think
So one thing I'd wish they changed about spears/tridents is giving them reach, and making them a part of the pole arm master feat because as spears/tridents are they have no use being outclasses by a long sword in every way except for throwing it which isn't very good either so it needs a new use like being a reach weapon that can be wielded with a shield because their isn't one of those and you'd have a good reason to use other weapons over spears as glaives, halberds, and pikes all do more damage
yes I know that the whip is a one handed weapon with reach that can be used with a shield, but its a dexterity weapon and it isn't a pole arm so it wouldn't fit in the pole arm master feat
I like strength and heavy armour for fighting, but it's a bit harder to build if you don't put much into dex - you have to account for the frequent Dex saves and Stealth checks. So equipment for proficiency and advantage in Dex saves and Stealth checks would be necessary to reduce unwanted trouble and damage. :)
I agree over-all as far as Strength vs. Dexterity with Dex being better. But, If you focus on the ability to remove threats from a fight your Strength based grapple character can be a very useful especially with the new Barbarian Battlerager path. Im not sure if the Middle Earth D20 book is core to D&D 5e, but if so it would be pretty good it sounds.
I suggest that base HP = STR at 1st level. ConB modifies additional HP/level. Str or Dex for Weapon to Hit as is but melee damage bonus only from StrB applying to all melee attacks. For ranged attacks DexB applies to Hit, StrB applies to damage for thrown, slung or specially made strong bows. Crossbows being made for specific strengths, and slower to load if not strong enough. Basically NO DexB to damages as it is already accounted for by its use in modifying the to Hit chances.
As someone who's done a fair bit of IRL archery, STR is a big factor when using a heavy bow. Could definitely be a homebrew variant consideration. My hunting bow has a 75 lb draw, and even that is light compared to an old school war bow.
The biggest trade off is that STR isn't as limited by weapon options as DEX is. You find a +3 Longsword and STR fighter getting a big boost as opposed to a DEX with a normal rapier. Though a STR fighter can't switch between melee and ranged as well as a DEX.
Damage types are limited with finesse weapons to piercing damage. If you want to do bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, etc (which is very useful against some enemies and useful for role play attacks too, skeletons are weak to bludgeoning for instance), then you do have to have strength if you want a good attack bonus.
Bows should have a minimum strength required to be used but dmg should still use dex as a bonus since aim Also strength should boost shields somehow since with more strength you can deflect stronger blows with your shield, maybe [AC= 2 + 1/2 str mod] to compensate for all the ways dex adds to your AC Also longswords should be finesse weapons too (even when two handing it) Other than that I'd change nothing about how strength and dex works
(5th here)I think Dexterity straight boost ability checks, while Strenght let you wear better armor (which compensate for the ac) and bring more tools. In games where I've played I've often saw people forced to leave behind important equipment just to not be encumbranced, and the right item when needed is better than a boost to checks.
The three fixes 1. Armor should have a damage reduction component baked in similar to Heavy Armor Master. Light armor, 0 DR, Medium armor, 1DR, Heavy Armor 3 DR. 2. Dex should apply only to the attack roll, not to damage. Str should still affect any melee attack damage or thrown weapon damage. 3. Bows should have strength requirements which increase as the bows get more powerful. As a bow Hunter, yes, you still have to be able to draw them
With Strength you have a much broader variety of wapons to chose from. Most of the magic weapons you'll find are Strength based. So are all heavy weapons to use with Great Weapon Master, one of the best Feats around. With Strength (Athletics) you can grapple, shove and knock prone, all great combat options. All this comming from a player who is playing a Dexterity Fighter :D
What really tips the scales for me is that the Archery Fighting Style increases accuracy, while the Great Weapon Fighting Style doesn't. May not seem like much, but then there's the Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter Feats that basically turn accuracy into damage at a 1:2 ratio. Not to mention, Sharpshooter also increases accuracy as well (conditionally) by ignoring half/three-quarters cover. Minor nitpick as well: in 5e mechanics, the duel between the Gregor Clegane and Oberyn Martel would have had Oberyn getting hit more than Gregor, because plate is always going to be at least one point of AC better than any Dex-based armor (and at early levels often a lot more due to the stat investment for studded leather). One goes first and has better saves, while the other hits harder (only factoring weapon dice) and has better AC.
The sheer increase in damage output though for a str fighter is worth considering. 2d6 rerolling 1s and 2s for damage seems pretty good, as well as getting bonus action attack when you slay a foe. Being in the melee is good as well, as you can protect allies who might otherwise be engaged far more easily if enemies have to provoke opertunity to leave melee with you, whearas for Dex fighters to get even close to the damage output of str they have to be using a heavy crossbow requiring an extra feat to use it in melee. Perhaps you could go rapier hand crossbow to try and maximise everything you've got going on, but even then it's non ideal to be sucking up your bonus action with a kinda shitty weapon in order to try to keep your damage on curve.
my dungeon mastered used to allow to make a overwatch tumble save, where in the case that if i got attacked i could role out of the way assuming my role was good enough
Something important in this is that if both use shields then the Dex fighter has to take the Medium armor master feat to catch up to the Str fighter in AC. Since half plate is 15+2 the Dex fighter with have 19 with half plate with shield or just studded leather with shield where as the Str fighter will have 20 with plate and shield. The Dex fighter needs to take medium armor master just to catch up so the Str fighter has an extra feat or ability score improvement (but has disadvantage on stealth. Also after reading the section in the DMG about other options in combat, most of the special things in combat are just resolved with Athletics vs Athletics or Acrobatics. A Str fighter should take a proficiency in athletics because it's very versatile in combat for shoving, grappling, climbing, maneuvering, and improvising tactics. Str based fighters win in terms of damage if they 2 hand or reach if they use a reach weapon (Dex can use a whip, but then their damage is even lower). Str also can be more versatile in combat with wepaon choice or pulling off creative attacks or manuevers due to athletics. A Dex based fighter has a better Dex save, can use better ranged weapons, and has better skills for out of combat situations.
So far this is the most objective comment on this video. I keep hearing about these Dex things for out of combat, still have to see what they are. I mean the way some people say it it seem like there are things only and ONLY Dex can do, but no one says what they are :(
Here's the math I see for the difference between Strength and Dexterity for melee martial classes. Example A: Class features and Feats are Ignored Dexterity->Highest damage finesse weapon(Rapier). Since it's one-handed, you can use a light weapon for two-weapon fighting. Highest light weapon(Shortsword)[finesse not necessary, since no class features/feats are being included, and you don't add dexterity to damage for off-hand weapons.] Total damage hitting all attacks with +5 dex mod: (4.5+5)+(3.5)=13. This uses your bonus action too, however. Strength->You could use rapier+shortsword for the exact same damage, but if you go with the greatsword, you don't need your bonus action. Total damage on hitting all attacks with +5 str mod: (3.5+3.5+5)=12. So quite close in damage, but you get to keep your bonus action. And you still have the options for two-weapon fighting. Example B: Class features and Feats are included. Things get more complicated here, but to make things simpler, I'm going to compare various options for each build. Weapon Styles: Duelist, two-weapon fighting, defense, and protection are all dexterity and strength. Great weapon fighting is a strength exclusive, and archery is dexterity exclusive. It is worth noting that most of the features that are good for both builds actually benefit strength slightly more(getting more AC from carrying a shield is more useful when your AC is low. Dex usually has better AC, so Str likes it more.) Also, worth noting that archery weapon style isn't usually for melee martial classes. Feats: There are a ton of these, but since they are technically optional, and many of them overlap...I'll just mention the big two for each build. Strength: Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master. Dexterity: Duel Wielder and Sharpsh...Crossbow Expert? As you can see, feats for Dexterity have fewer good options, once they go into melee fighting. Not to say there aren't good ones, but generally they are for ranged attackers, specific classes, or also work with Strength. Other Class features: Unarmed Strikes->Though monks can go dexterity for great AC and reasonable damage for two-weapon fighting, Strength has better grappling and shoving options. Sneak Attack->Yea, technically you can go Str here(finesse weapons can use strength), but Dex does everything Str would do, plus some. Rogues should probably have Dex, for power gaming purposes Ranger->Has fewer weapon style options, making Dex more appealing. Paladin->Like the ranger, but for Str. Barbarians->Str absolutely necessary for many class features. Dex valuable for Unarmored Defense though, making barbarian like all 3 physical stats. Proficiency: Obviously light armor likes Dex, and heavy armor likes Str. Armor actually provides roughly equivalent AC with correct stats, making unarmored defense the only reason to go Dex for AC. Feats provide some variety as well, but they are difficult to pinpoint exact value. Worth noting that light armor mastery doesn't currently exist. Generally simple weapons are just weaker martial weapons; that said, Str doesn't have as many options here, and Dex doesn't lose much. Dex wins this. TL;DR Dexterity has the advantage on paper, especially the immediate sense for your character. It does comparable damage to Str, is the better option for a few classes, and has additional bonuses to init and AC. That said, Strength does have more options and versatility than Dex for melee fighting, with more feat options, more classes that can use it, and a wider weapon selection. To me, that means any melee Dex fighting class needs to hybrid ranged weapon fighting, have unarmored defense as a class feature, be a shorter running campaign, or be a rogue(or a casting class) to be worth it over strength. Since most classes have one of those options, Dex might seem better, but that means some classes, like the Fighter/Barbarian, actually should pick Str in most campaigns.
Although it obviously doesn't mention it in any of the books, I have to feel the over-sized weapons are still insinuated (which is a huge plus for the strength based builds). As of Volo's release, 3 playable classes (Goliath, Firbolg, and Bugbear) have the "strong build" which doubles your carry weight and lift/push/pull/break. That's 480 lbs (STR 16) of carry weight, and 960 (!!!) of lift/push/pull/break. All those classes are around the 8ft. range... and in the MM, you'll see that Ogrillons are also that tall, yet are rated as Large creatures (albeit having a conveniently named ability that adds a die for attacks). Even the Bugbear in MM has a similar attribute that adds an extra die as well, but not in Volo's... The thing is, it can be debated among those previously mentioned.... until you let one of those classes be a Totem warrior and take the bear totem at lvl 6... 960 Carry weight and 1920 lift/push/pull/break... I can throw a one ton truck, but i can't wield an over-sized sword? Before people scream OP though, remember the DM doesn't have to make these weapons easily accessible, considering all the playable races are med and smaller. That suggests that your local smithy isn't going to have large weapons just laying around. So players would have to probably get them either by commissioning them (for considerable fees) or pick them up from encounters (of which could be far and few between). I dunno... What are your thoughts?
You can still have a dex bonus and favor str. In fact, the str fighter has a higher armor class than dex fighter in your scenerio, as full plate has a higher base AC than anything the dex fighter can put on. (18 full-plate, 17 for armors that mix dex and ac) but full plate does not affect dex saves, initiative, etc. and full plate ac doesn't go down if you have a negative ac. The differences are the fighting styles and which fighter tree you are going to go down. A Battle Master fighter can be a better ranged attacker than a ranger. But if you are sword and board, full plate and shield have a higher ac than a "dex" fighter. Full plate with 2h also offers higher ac if you don't take a shield into account. Even then, if you want to cheese your ac, add an animated shield, go 2h fighter in full plate. But in 5e Full Plate grants the highest ac bonus. BUT, you can still have a dex bonus for your saves, initiative etc. They are not one or the other stats in this edition.
TyrantJD Yes but I find most str based fighters dump dex exactly for the reasons you mention. If you use standard array or point buy you are probably going to have dump stat. That is mostly the we are using with the either or argument. All of your points are valid. When we discuss builds it is generally from the stand point of mechanical optimization. Nerdarchist Dave
Depends on the constitution of the warrior on who would last longer. Rob Roy movie: the claymore using Scotsman vs the British aristocrat using a rapier. The aristocrat playfully danced and pranced dodging the heavy bladed attacks, while stabbing and slicing multiple bleeds on the Scotsman. The scotsman eventually got an opportunity and struck, one hit was enough...the scotsman had enough life (hp) to survive long enough to win.
I still like strength fighters because it is easier to augment your ac with armor without too much magic, and you have a few options with combat manuvers like grapple and bull rush
First, this topic was already covered a while back, and it had the same result. The Dexterity and the Strength camps refused to agree. I will agree that Dexterity has become the "master stat". The majority of saving throws are around it. Outside of Heavy Armor, it determines AC. It factors into Initiative. It has many skills around it. Dex allows for Finesse weapons and can be used for Ranged combat. That established, I always go with Strength fighters. Strength determines how heavy your armor can be (Heavy Armors all have Strength minimums), controls Athletics (which will be used far more often than Acrobatics - try "acrobatically" swimming out of a sinking ship), Grappling attacks, and determines the vast majority of melee weapon damage. That sounds like a Fighter to me. Strength can also be used for Thrown weapons (spears, javelins, axes, hammers, and yes, even daggers) for Strength-based ranged combat, determines lift/pull/carry (important in a survival setting where you may have to carry fallen comrades - been there/done that). The largest damage die for a melee Finesse weapon is d8 (Rapier). After that, it goes up for Strength-based weapons. Having a d10 for Heavy Crossbow is all well and good, but you'll need a feat or a UA fighting style to make it effective in close quarters, and the Loading property will reduce the number of attacks (again, the Feat is needed). So that means that, outside a Two-Weapon Ranger or a Rogue, there's no need to build a Finesse Fighter. A Great Weapon Fighter/Great Weapon Master Paladin (assuming a 16 Str at start) who Smites on a Crit has the potential to do 79 points of damage in one blow. That's at level 2. Sure, it's an extreme example, but he can also do that while still having an AC of 18 in full plate. At the same level, with a similar Crit, a Rogue will max out at 58 with a Heavy Crossbow/Sharpshooter. Add Basic Poison and you might gain another 12. Yes, the Rogue's sneak attack really builds steam after 3rd, and yes, it will eventually have that massive one-shot with the Assassin, but that will take time - and it will still have an AC max of 17 without magic...18 IF it takes Dual Wielder...and that will need the Rogue to be a minimum of 10th level (Human variant - Feat at 1st), or 12th (everyone else). Rogues will, over time, be the master of the one hit, true. But that Paladin can do it all by himself on a clear day without help. Advantage, allies, surprise, etc. aren't needed. This doesn't account for Sentinel, Polearm Master, Barbarian Rage, or any one of several ways to knock characters/monsters prone - which brings that Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic to bear. In the end, Strength fighters have far more choice for armor and weapons, more feats to back up their choice, how much they can carry and lift, and Athletics - which, albeit the ONE skill determined by Strength, is also the ONE skill that determines climbing, running, swimming, jumping and any other sort of travel through difficult circumstances (outside of tightrope walking). That sounds like a dungeon to me. If you're going to cross a river, climb a rope, scale a cliff, or jump over a pit - it's not Dexterity that will save you. House Rules aside, this is how things are.
one thing...he definitely did not remember 3rd Edition well at all. All armors begin carrying a max Dex bonus. So sure...take your massive dex...but you are essentially stuck with light armor until you acquire enough gold to change to mithril. Staying in 3rd...the best starting AC you can have is 18 or 20 (tower shield excluded)..depending on if you use a shield..high dex or not. Sure going lighter might help your reflex..but that is mostly for avoiding traps or spells.
If you look at DEX vs STR and just look at saving throws, AC, and missile attack bonuses, then yes, DEX does seem better than STR. However, 5e D&D is nicely layered and there are some GREAT builds that prefer a high STR. Once you factor in things like feats, the damage output from a STR based warrior really takes off. For example, I played a variant human paladin with an 18 STR and took Polearm Master for my feat (DEX was a dump stat). I also took Defense for my fighting style. With a halberd, I started off with two attacks (1 regular attack, 1 bonus attack), PLUS a possible opportunity attack when anybody entered my halberd's range (the two square range almost triples the amount of squares you threaten with op attacks). I ended up getting A LOT of attacks and I was consistently putting out a great deal of damage in melee combat (yes, my ranged game was admittedly lackluster). Defensively, I was quite tanky with just mundane plate mail which I wore for most of the campaign. I did occasionally switch to a single-handed magic weapon and shield combo when I needed to tank up a bit, but my damage output became pathetic. Yes, the weapon was weaker, but it was really the loss of that bonus attack and the possible reaction attack that gimped me.
Poldovico yeah but most strength builds would be running some extra buffs to their strength also it really fits thematically with the brute who can take a lot of hits. also sorry I didn't clarify that it was the ability modifier than the individual points of strength. but if you also pair this ability with the heavy armor mastery you could have dr of 8 and that's pretty good in 5th edition.
Good video and I generally agree. A couple details I would pile on: in some setups a finesse weapon user can wear a shield so that's another 2 AC for the build, and Fighter offers a straight +2 damage for this setup. That being said, the fact that 2-handers deal more damage means they'll never just be objectively worse, it's just a matter of how much defense you're willing to give up. And there are definitely certain setups that work well for it, typically involving Barbarian or heavy armor. The balance isn't too bad. Maybe finesse should cap at a d6 or maybe they should drop their obsession with even numbers and give it a d7, but there are still a decent amount of two-hander builds I can play where I don't feel like I'm running a sub-optimal character.
Miklos Mihok Yep. You get shove, grapple, and carrying capacity instead of all the benefits that come with having a high Dex. If you find shove that important then more power to you. Even with 1h weapons, Dex still isn't just objectively superior, but I think the gap is wider than with 2h Str and 1h Dex.
It comes down to bonus to the situations you are in. You keep saying benefits of having high Dex, but you do not give any of them. Excluding initiative, there are ways to take care of anything in one way or the other. In so far the balance of both attributes i is good to the fighter. I am talking just about the fighter. As for the other 'traditional martial' classes: -Barbarian, people keep trying to sell the Dex barbarian by trowing out half of its abilities based again on the idea that Dex is superior to Str -Monk, can be played Str but its defining feature simply makes you play Dex -Paladin balanced, again depends on your preference -Ranger veers to Dex, but Str is not unimaginable -Rogue, the assassin because it is the murderhobo where the idea of Dex being superior comes from.
The biggest things Dex offers are initiative, AC, and one of the most powerful saving throws in the game. Str doesn't offer anything over Dex that is as statistically potent as those 3 things, and only the opportunity cost of AC can be avoided through other means (and may require other sacrifices, depending on the build). Aside from those things, Dex and Str have comparable (albeit different) advantages in terms of Skills, Attack, and Damage when it comes to 1h weapon users. Based on my suggestion that finesse weapons should cap at 1d6 or 1d7 damage (i.e. lose 0.5 - 1 point of damage) obviously I don't think this advantage is huge or game-breaking, but I do think 1h finesse is slightly overpowered.
I think a lot of people undersell strength. Strength helps both with getting grappled and grappling. Items in the DMG boost strength above 20, where no other item will boost dex like that. Think of all the Giant's belts....also think about Great Weapon master feat also! That's not a dex based thing. You also got to think about the plate armor items in the DMG! 2 handed weapons do more dmg on average too. Also in order to cast you need a free hand. so as acaster with a 2 hander you can cast because you ONLY need to use two hands DURING the attack. You cannot cast with a sword and shield or dual wielding unless you got Warcaster or put your weapon away.. If you go dual wielding you give up your bonus action to attack....when really you could be using your bonus action for things like Great Weapon Master. ALSO! IF we are playing by the RULES you can only ATTUNE 3 MAGIC ITEMS. I allow more then that in my campaign but this MEANS....if you dual wield or use a shield you already have TWO items attuned....assuming you want both of those to be magical. At the very least you have to FIND both those pieces of loot. With a two handed weapon you are only attuning one ITEM and you only have to find ONE item. This means a Str fighter could be using a Spell resistance cloak, Giants belt and some bad ass two hander. Or magical plate mail. I would skip the magical plate and just pick up a +1 Adamantine Plate hopefully. Which isn't super rare really. It requires no attunement and turns crits into normal hits. If you choose not to have both dual wielded weapons as your attuned items. Then your off hand isn't magical and does half dmg to monsters who resist it. Which is a lot of creatures as you level up.
While you can resist grapples and such with Acrobatics. Athletics is always the stat used to initiate Pushes, Grapples, Shoves etc. So a dex character can defend against them but not initiate them, while a strength character can do both.
Sometime i'm happy that my multiclass get strong with only 2 asi in dex. Sometime i think that dex and strength might be use together in any hit, like dex give more chance to hit but strength more damage and more heavy weapon yet each give the two but not at the same level. The thing is you are forced to make a choice then you get almost nothing more to invest in the other, if your defense is dex and light armor your stuck in it, and with heavy armor too.
Had not thought of the 1.5X damage, but have already implemented the 2d6 for our regular game. Will definitely use them both. 1d12 is my least favorite to roll. Played a one off game last weekend combining my two regular groups (Happy Thanksgiving) and the ranger hit twice with her 1d12 weapon and used hunters mark.... she rolled three 1's.
I think that STR would really have a leg up on DEX if weapon damage type mattered more. DEX characters are pretty much locked into piercing damage, with the exception of the Scimitar and the Sling. Where as STR characters get every damage type at every die level, except 1d12/2d6 piercing damage. So one adv. a STR fighter could have is breadth of damage options, particularly bludgeoning damage. But unfortunately physical damage types rarely matter in 5e. Also, don't forget that finesse weapons can still be used with STR. A lot of people tend to assume you need DEX to use a dagger or a rapier, which is not the case.
I love the idea of using 1.5 str mod for dmg when using a heavy weapon with two hands. A d8 one-hand wep with dueling does the same avg dmg as a d12 two-handed, unless they get to reroll 1s n 2s, but then i got +2ac from my shield which i think is way better, i will suggest this the next time i play, and not use it cus i love my shield too much and does decent dmg.
Your ignoring GWF which everyone seems to do. If he's only ever using his greataxe like that your right he may aswell just go Sword and board, but he SHOULD be smiting his enemies with unholy fury using GWF whearas your best feat, whilst incredible (shield master) doesn't amp your damage in nearly the same way. Pluss when he kills somone he gets a bonus action attack. He also IS rerolling ones and twos which you need to account for when comparing the two of you. Sure your build might be a little better overall but it isn't much, and when it comes down to eliminating enemies from the battlefield he's Gona do a better job. Pluss, whilst your AVG damage is the same he has better potential damage because his peak is higher (yes he has a lower Min too but he gets to reroll those).
Using a bow requires substantial upper body strength..... especially long bows....I’d say for my games..... a strength based fighter could use a bow and use the strength mod for damage as well as hit. The damage would be how far the arrow penetrates the target and to hit would be the ability to control and aim said bow while drawing it back with the heavy draw weight. You have proficiency with all weapons so that means you know how to use them therefore you’d have techniques down.
Big and strong go together in the natural world. Maybe if you made strong characters get a buff to constitution or something? That way they they can at least take a punch better than the dex based fighter?
I believe in pathfinder and D&D 3rd ed (not to sure about 3rd), Bow users needed Dexterity for attack rolls but could only add more damage to the damage roll of there Bows if they had a compound bow and it matched there Strength modifier. So pathfinder rangers, fighters and anyone else that wanted to get the most out of bows couldn't just dump stat strength they needed at least a passable Strength stat to hit hard but also needed a good Dexterity stat to ever hit there target but I'm not sure how they changed things In 5th then it comes to that
I pick strength or dex depending on what makes sense with the character. I have one fighter npc that I control as a DM with a soldier background, meant to be front line, a tank, being super dodgy and quick didnt make sense in my eyes, I wanted him to be large and scary and threatening. If I played as a character and chose fighter I'd pick dex
being on the front lines makes you much more likely to run across things that require str. being crushed under a statue and whatnot. in addition str gives the option to grapple which is under utitlized and can be very powerful. lastly I have had both dex based and str based fighters and the option to switch from dealing 1d8 to 2d6 to 1d12 on a horse and maintaining combat effectiveness is invaluable. getting stuck in a situation where your party has been disarmed and all you can find are clubs sucks for everyone but the str based. and finally, it cannot be overstated how powerful heavy armor master and/or gwm are. they make the game and there is no equivalent for a dex based melee fighter. now archer with sharpshooter is another story entirely but their a.c. is pretty bounded and having an attacker next to them basically nullifies them.
Its in the name and the description... "Great Weapon" and stressing "weight of a weapon" implying HEAVY... as you read below, look at it as a two column entry ********************************************************************************************************************** Great Weapon Master You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits: • On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a
Miklos Mihok they explain it in the video..... DEX is bonus to most everything; AC, many skills, initiative, most common save, in 5E attack and damage with alot of weapons..... no other ability score has as much impact as DEX.
Dex AC will 9/10 times be inferior to AC from armor, for a fighter. What are these 'many skills', and how would you interpret them in character. Is there one Dex check can do something a Str check cannot, besides stealth [even that is debatable]? Initiative, this is one thing that Dex has over Str. Most common save, but not nearly the most devastating one, no need to look further than fighter class itself, the battlemaster maneuvers. Attack and damage are the same if you have the same bonus to attributes, so there is no advantage to using either. Except for ranged weapons, some not all. Wis has far more impact than Dex, Con even more so, Cha in 'out of combat' situations, using Dex to understand and plan things is not as helpful as Int. As for Str not being viable, you could argue all you want but: It is a matter of choice and preference. A Dex fighter does not need to rely on his gear as much, a Str fighter has more options in combat. I will say it in simple terms so as not to be miss interpreted: Dex is not superior to Str, nor is the other way around true.
wow... umm... ok, lets take a look at two fighters: Fighter (A) is a two-handed heavy weapon fighter that is STR based (Str:20, Dex:12, Con:18) Fighter (B) is a one-handed finesse weapon fighter that is DEX based (Str:12; Dex:20, Con:18) Now Fighter (A) with just equipment and stats can have a max AC of 21 Now Fighter (B) with just equipment and stats can have a max AC of 25 hmmm... looks like DEX is winning out... and yes DEX guy has a shield, but........ Now Fighter (A) and Fighter (B) have the same exact bonus to hit and damage so... Fighter (A) is using a Great Axe with a minimum damage of 9 and a max of 20 with a median of 16 Fighter (B) is using a Rapier with a minimum damage of...... 9 hmm..... max 16 with a median of 13 However, the DEX based fighter could forego the shield (AC drops to 20, only 1 less than FighterA)... Fighter (B) now dual wields and suddenly min damage is.... 18 hmm.... max 32 with a median of 26... Fighter (B) with single weapon shield has higher AC with slightly less damage median with dual wielding his AC is virtually the same as fighter(a) but his damage output.... This is a no brainer at the DEX vs STR question... to make it worse, if both were Barbarians and both had their armor destroyed, the DEX based would have an even more EXTREME advantage MOST COMMON SAVE... how often do you face a STR save???... or a CHA save??? Sense this whole thing is over DEX vs STR fighters.... DEX is 3 skills, STR is 1... not sure, but I think 3 is more and yes the other ability scores have more impact... in those very particular situations but, DEX still effects more overall. (OH... and while wearing heavy armor, stealth is at disadvantage... hmm) and the Dex fighter not needing to rely on his gear, and the Str fighter having more options..... wow, thats just so far off I don't even know where to begin. FAR more options for DEX if you really understand the system, and everyone needs gear to nearly equal extent, tho the monk has a SLIGHT advantage in that area. Physical RP is same for both, one is super strong RP, the other super acrobatic and nimble... OVERALL it is obvious that DEX has greater impact compared to STR in fighter builds and overall game mechanics I've been playing and DM'ing D&D for 30 years, since the the RED box set when you didn't choose a class, you chose a race and that determined everything including your "class", AD&D 1st print 1st edition to 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5, 4th(which sucked), to current... not to mention the MANY other systems and other d20 base ones... DEX(or Agility for some systems) has NEARLY always been more advantageous than your other stats, but especially so in the D&D series. Although in early 1st edition AD&D it wasn't quite as advantageous as it became by 3rd edition, which is where it really swung into the air.
I am not questioning your experience, I will not flaunt my experience since I do not have 30 years. But I will pose a few questions that are unclear in your, statements, opinions, ideas however you call them: 1) A strength fighter has to arbitrarily fight with a two-handed weapon, the discussion is no on two-handing, two weapon, ranged vs melee. What the discussion is on why do you believe Dex to be 'superstat'. 2) How did you achieve AC of 25 with mundane items or were you referencing some magical items? 12[studded leather]+5[dex]+2[shield] is 19, 18[full plate]+noDex+2[shield] is 20. There is also the option of wearing medium armor with the feat, and this is that last variant of 15[hlafplate]+3[dex, from the feat]+2 shield. To my humble knowledge, the PHB, and grade school math, at the assumed 20/12 respective spread of Str/Dex. But if I overlooked something please tell me.[PHB145] 3) You are talking about theory-crafting with the 'math' you have shown. With again assumptions, not facts. To my knowledge 1d12+5 is not 9-20 it is 6-17, with a median of 11[11.5] with a possible re-roll making the median 12[12.33]... etc... What you fail to see is that every finesse weapon can be used with Str, and optionally with Dex making all the damage output of Dex equal to the Str damage output with the same weapons. But as you said this is damage output, and as it was shown time and again damage output is less relevant than status effects, like prone for example[PHB195-196]: That the Str fighter of 20Str/12Dex and proficiency can call an opposed check at a d20+[2-6]prof+5Str and the Dex fighter at 20Dex/12Str can do at d20+optional proficiency+1Str With every attack action [not ever attack] within 5ft. The Dex fighter has the option, it is just less viable. 4) Barbarians are another topic, all together. There are fun RP options for dex there, fun implying they should be played not implying HURDURSUBOPTIMAL. 5) As for the Str save, I have already said you need not look further than the class, but hey if you are confident with doing prof+1 saves vs disarms or being knocked prone, power to you. 6) You have intentionally miss read my formulations, or you are so blinded in your conviction that you do not want to see reason: A Str fighter relies on armor for AC thus a Dex fighter relies less on his equipment, as for the once again COMBAT OPTIONS look back to the example in point 3). One option or a bit, it is still more. But if you talk about outfitting people with magic items it is a different topic once again. 7) Skills: the reverse of what I addressed in the example of point 3), those options exist they are just less likely to be used. But for the sake of argument, you get 4-5 proficiencies as you make your character, there are mechanics allowing you to take more as time progresses in game. So unless you are making a specific one note character [the backallymurderhobo who grew up on the streets] you would have to spend 500gp and the same amount of days in game time to gain proficiency with those other skills. In other words you would halt the progression of the game for more than a year in game, thus making what you imagine as better numbers be more important than the game and impose your opinions on the people you are playing with. If your gaming group agrees with that power to them. My groups would and have gone on with such characters, and went on adventuring instead of learning how to add a prof bonus to their Dex based skills. On the other hand that heavy armored fighter, trying to sneak trough an elvish glade, had a fun time explaining to the guards why he was trespassing while the arcanist guided him with whispers, and the lost boy came back to his father leaving the guards baffled as to where he came from and where did their purses go.
Here is my conclusion after some analysis and generating several thousand rounds of combat (average damage). With the sum of the extra benefits, DEX builds to win out over STR builds in the 5e combat (without custom items or DM additions), however the addition of Belts of X Giant STG push/set these stats higher than DEX can reach in 5e giving the adequate boost it needs for superior DPS of DEX builds.
If only X amounts of strength would add to hp bonus, Same way con does but for much less. draw strength is a real thing. Archers build up their bodies overtime to handle larger and more powerful bows.
.. . . . I've done some ridiculous stuff with fighter. My favorite is a Diablo 3 "Demon Hunter" build. I.E. Dual Wielding 5 round mag fed hand crossbows w/ cross bow master feat variant human. I maxed out dex at 12th level and was getting 7 shots off every round of combat. Combined with sharpshooter that's 70 dmg alone with just that if every shot hits. I one turn K.O. his third boss. That and I could still be upfront because I could point blank shoot with Crossbow Master.
Strength based weapons has a huge advantage over Dex based melee-weapons, (almost) all d10, d12 and 2d6 weapons are strenght based, while dex weapons usually end at d8. which means that dex weapons average a d8 => 4,5 per hit, while d10 is 5,5 and d12 is 6,5 and 2d6 is 7 dmg average per hit. - this also translates to more relevant critical hits. Also while a 1 on the damage dice is a 1 in both cases, strenght based builds have more of an advantage to pick great weapon fighting as a fighting style since they _can_ wield two handed weapons. while a d8 roller will roll 1 every 8th time, a d12 guy will roll 1 1/36 times.
Interesting points to have brought up, I hope they can resolve it whenever 6th edition is released. On the topic of bows with strength, I always thought it was strange that there wasn't a bow that at least relied on strength for damage. Could something like that be done where Dex determines the to hit and Strength would determine the damage bonus?
Ulysses's bow couldn't be drawn by anyone with a lower strength than his. I could see a specially made bow that has a stronger pull could add a strength bonus, but it would probably take a master craftsman a lot of experimenting to get it correct, if your dm allows it in his campaign at all. It also would be pretty difficult to be replaced if it got damaged.
one of the biggest benefits of strands based fighting is the fact that you can grapple well. very well if you optimise with feats. that means you grab that dex based fighter and hold him down, speed zero, for his entire turn. once you get your hands on him he's locked down quite effectively. also nets. don't think you can dexter your way out of a net, even if the DC is low (13? sorry, on my phone in the car don't have the books with me) I believe it's still a str check to break out once caught.
Perhaps I read it wrong, but I remember seeing Great weapon fighting as a fighting style, stating you could re-roll a 1 or 2 but you'd be forced to take whatever result that was. So, does this mean if you use a greatsword (2d6) with this ability, and you roll a 1 and a 2, you can re-roll both? If so, this may have become the best weapon in the game, not including magical things. Sure with dueling and a rapier you get a free +2 to your damage all the time, but if you can just keep re-rolling bad dice rolls, it basically negates that issue.
Dexterity is one of if not the most commonly used stat in the game. Using both Sleight of Hand and Steal, both are very common especially the latter. Then there's initiative, the one non-skill in the game and it's effected by Dexterity on ALL classes. Even Wizards need high DEX for Mage Armor (which honestly is dumb). Not saying every character needs DEX but getting DEX is always a very good choice no matter what. It's a bit OP if you think about it.
My Dex based monk almost always dealt more damage than the strength based fighter in our group. To the point that he got a powerful weapon so he could do more damage. Still nothing close to what I could do. Monk's multi attacks and using Dex makes them incredibly brilliant for front line attackers. Their high Dex and movement make then awesome at mage attacker as well.
This is an important balance point. I think it works out in a high magic setting where magic items are always available - there are a lot of str buff items and not so many for dex, but not every setting should be like that, and a lot of dms are going to homebrew dex items without realizing it defeats a balance point. This is a design flaw.
It's not too bad to be honest I'm the magic item front. If you don't get that specific magic rapier your character is going to be loathed to switch to somthing like the magic longsword or war hammer or even greatsword that you've foind. Not every magic item you find will be taylored to you, but str fighters are more versatile in that respect. Pluss a bunch of the magic armour is heavy only
I feel like strength should give another mechanic to it. I feel like, since strength characters are almost always going to be in the thick of it, the strength bonus should also add to your total hit points every level. The in game flavor for this being that, the more muscle-bound you are, the more it adds to your overall health and abilities. There also needs to be more saves and skills that applies to strength as well.
4th edition had two armor groupings: light and heavy ... light armor stacks fully with DEX MOD or INT MOD to determine AC, no max limit, while heavy armor made DEX and INT effectively useless for AC ...
strength is not irrelevant if you actually use encumbrance rules, throw lots of strength based checks at the player outside of combat. Example: Trap the players in a room while enemies are flooding in (might be an assault on a stronghold that turned south when the alarm was raised). The only way out of combat and into a chase would be a secret door that just so happens to be seriously jammed. They might find it just fine, but without a strong burly guy to open it, theyre stuck and the combat situation just complicates matters further with disadvantages. If they survive or not, you've just taught the munchkins a valuable lesson about why strength is an important stat.
Dexterity giving you AC is immaterial for any martial class with access to heavy armor, which are also the best warriors. Great Weapon Fighter, letting you reroll 1's and 2's on damage dice make strength fighting superior to dexterity fighting. At the end of the day, though, Charisma is the best stat for a warrior. A high charisma 2 or 6 Paladin/X Sorcerer with a Belt of Giant Strength is going to completely demolish every other martial class in both tanking (plate armor + shield spell) and offense (for a 2 paladin use twinned booming blade, each divine smited, all damage rerolled on 1's and 2's, and with a 6 paladin do a bonus action quickened green flame blade after your two smiting attacks).
As an archer in real life I have news for you: you DO need strength to draw your bow.
And arguably aside from a minimum level of strength you don't need to be super strong to fight in melee.
And you need a certain minimum STR to draw the string on a crossbow as well.
Unfortunately the STR and DEX attributes are poorly suited to simulate combat. As fighting is an important part of any RPG, instead of trying to shoehorn these stats to fit the purpose, it's better to add two new skills for Melee and Ballistic weapons and have any relevant attribute modifiers apply to these. This is what WFRP does and it works much better!
@@derrickbonsell no tbf strength always helps. Especially against folks in armour, where all your blades become clubs.
Real life fact = The average English long bow most commonly used in the 14-15th century had a draw of 175 lbs. So thouse lilttle english archers that trained with Longbow feom age 10 up Had back mucles like olympic lifters. That long bow could shoot 250 yards and with a bodkin tip would punch through any armor and useualy the horse as well. Thats how the english defeated the french when out numbered by heavy knights almost 100 to one. So strength is a large part of Archery.
"I shoot this bow with my strength!"
I challenge you good sir to draw a long bow with no strength XD
Problem is strength-based fighters are ONLY better at doing melee damage. The dex-based fighter will out-shine it in most combat situations.
E.g.
Trying to ambush a group of enemies - oh you can't because heavy armour effs stealth
Facing a flying opponent - oh your strength fighter can either spend the majority of their actions grappling it to try to keep it in range or running/climbing to try to get into melee, whereas your dex-based fighter pulls out a bow and hammers the enemy.
Facing a spellcaster or enemy with breath-weapons - oops your strength fighter is taking tons of damage cause they can't make their Dex-saves
Trying to control enemy movement - oh no you rolled shit initiative so now the baddies all get to go before you, whereas your Dex-fighter with Sentinel can run up first and keep them away from the squishies. (Even with Alert to make up the low initiative Sentinel lets you do damage and makes movement 0 whereas grappling only makes movement 0).
The good class where a strength-based character is overall better than a dex-based one is Barbarian. Though for pure melee DPS your STR-paladin is probably the best option.
Outside of combat strength is probably more useful than dex, and it can be a problem if a party doesn't have any strength-based character to e.g. paddle a boat against a current, break down doors, move heavy obstacles, carry unconscious party members, jump across chasms/lava rivers, prevent a source of information from running off, , etc... Whereas dex is mainly important for stealth, and fall-damage since probably the rogue will be doing the lock-picking or pickpocketing or thievery and recon (though a criminal-dex-fighter could substitute for a rogue if you don't have one but why wouldn't you just play a rogue?). So basically every party should have one strength-based character that is either a paladin (for pure melee DPS) or a barbarian (for tanking).
@@agilemind6241 strength based fighters are much better at controlling because they can get genuine value out of shield master. Strength base doesn't mean dump Dex, it should be your third highest stat probably. You can also get alert if it really bothers you to not have all the initiative. They also do alot more damage, which is the primary utility of your fighter along with frontline
Really shake things up and require str mins for all weapons as well as armour,
Dex should actually have very little to do with archery. Strength to draw and hold steady, and perception (So Wis?) to aim. Dex for bows is not actually sensical if you understand archery even a little.
@@Jimalcoatl dexterity is also involved because of your fingers. When firing a longbow you are most likely using your fingers to hold the string back. If you let the string go wrong it will mess up the shot. It's a lot of factors.
Ironically enough a warbow is actually a lot harder to use untrained than a longsword is because of the strength required.
The main reason to go the Strength route (from the point of view of mechanics - there are always RP reasons, obviously) is that it frees you up to dump Dex (or at least put a 10 or 11 there), and to have better stats elsewhere. If you're planning to be a Strength-based fighter with big weapons and heavy armor, you won't need your Dex for AC, and the likelihood of having a better Constitution, Charisma, or any other stat increases.
Also, having big weapons that require a higher strength to wield make sense if you have a higher likelihood of scoring criticals. We had a half-orc ranger in our game who dumped his Dex, but wielded a great axe. He was slow, had bad armor, and had bad luck to boot, but often, when he was forced to use his half-orc Resilient ability - he was dropped to 0 hp, but stayed up at 1 instead - he would score a critical, and do 3d12 (extra d12 for Savage Attacker) +3 (Strength bonus), which usually finished enemies off. Once he got the extra attack, the chances for doing that went up. For a Champion Fighter who crits on a 19, that kind of combination makes a lot of sense, too.
On the whole, I agree that Dex wins. The fight between Oberyn and the Mountain was kind of unrepresentative, and Oberyn lost not because of Gregor Clegane's Strength, but because of his own low Wisdom. A far more typical fight is the fight between Bronn and Ser Vardis Egan in the Eyrie (Season 1). Egan is heavily armored and relying on his heavy sword, while Bronn is the typical Dex-based Battlemaster (possibly a Swashbuckler), and he wins handily by wearing Egan down. And a bit of cheating.
I would also like to bring forward the idea that if you have a Dexterity fighter vs a Strength fighter, the Strength fighter in D&D would actually usually win. Even with the Dexterity Bonus, Heavy Armor in general has better Armor class, as well as all the best weapons being Strength weapons.
And in Sword vs. sword combat, all those skills and saving throws won't necessarily help any. The only major advantage they actually get is their higher Initiative, and luck alone can easily take that away as well.
Sure in the long-run the Dexterity character gets a lot more, but don't think the simpler Strength man is hopelessly under-powered.
Hard to say, because the Dex fighter is going to likely have two-weapon fighting, and various other shenanigans (e.g. Hunter's Mark, or Sneak Attack) that increase the damage of _each attack_.
But the proper comparison is not head-to head, which is a relatively rare, or artificial situation. The comparison is precisely long-term, over a character's whole career, because that's how characters are actually played.
Boris Stremlin Well yes, but I would hardly say that Two weapon fighting compares to a 2-handed weapon, considering you'll only ever get one extra attack. And Sneak Attacks can only do so much considering the class it's based off of only ever gets one attack per round anyways.
Different types of characters get different advantages, but Strength Warriors don't get the short end of the stick too hard, for example Totem Barbarians can get resistance to almost every damage type in the game. It's all what you build and what you go for.
Dex bear barbarian with 10+CON+DEX+Shield Yeah try to hit and or hurt me I dare you. Also be a Halfling and ride atop a Medium strength Barb with Wolf at level three If you have mounted combatant you can draw every attack towards you allowing him to get advantage from reckless and you always have advantage cause wolf. He will be succeeding saving throws as well cause mounted combatant so Yeah OP Combo
Two of my players did this and it's awesome they are death come to walk the earth
Sam Kemp Barbarians also get bonus damage to Strength weapons, so running around with a Dex weapon doesn't do them any good.
Thank you guys for being a constant source of ACTUAL info! Keep it going!
Zachary Ashmore Ahh, shucks. You're giving me warm fuzzies :)
We do are best to be of service to the community.
Nerdarchist Dave
Would love to hear what you guys think about my comments. Rather then living in an Echo Chamber of those who agree with you.
My 9 dex fighter once won an archery competition by throwing a crossbow. Your argument is invalid.
Natural 20 on the roll to hit with an improvised weapon ?
You are my new hero
Crossbows do not have the thrown property.
@@agsilverradio2225 Which means it counts as an improvised weapon when thrown, just like throwing a greatsword
6-8 int? Or out of bolts? 😜
Funny thing about bows is that it actually requires a lot of strength and more strength allows you to wield a heavier bow that will go farther and hit harder
You undersell strength fighters.
- Pole-arm Masters *must* be strength based.
- Great Weapon Masters *must* be strength based.
- Shield Masters benefit from having high athletics (shove as bonus action).
If you're playing a fighter you want to be taking advantage of at least one feat. Otherwise why not just play a ranger or rogue? Almost all of the best combat feats lean towards strength builds. I'd say the only top tier dexterity based fighter build is an archer (due to sharpshooter).
NB: Also fighters tend to have very high HP, so taking extra damage from failed dexterity saves isn't such a big deal. Meanwhile a dexterity fighter can be *wrecked* by spells like Entangle (strength save into strength checks).
NB2: Also even sword + board strength based fighters have more weapons options. That +2 magical flaming club is worthless to dexterity based characters, but the strength fighter doesn't mind swapping down his damage dice for those amazing magical effects.
combine polearm master with sheild master and use a quarter staff and a shield. stupid powerful, especially if you go eldricht knight and pick up combat caster. you're knocking people down, you get to do a cantrip as a reaction (and you combine it with that TEE cantrip that has your weapon do bonus thunder damage) and then you have your regular attack. It's all pretty awesome!
+Tom Birmingham Combining polearm master and shield master is a bit iffy since they compete for bonus actions.
aceflashheart Can't grapple on Dex. Not to mention, max ac from armor is 17 for light vs 18 for heavy, unless you score a tome which certainly isn't guaranteed.
And Dex builds can't leverage the higher damage or reach weapons, and damage types are fairly limited as well giving a disadvantage early on vs things like skeletons.
Dex builds on fighters aren't for combat prowess. They are for skill based fighters that rely on dexterity skills for utility, more because of their background. Dex is viable, but it doesn't give you a defensive benefit so much as it compensates for the drawback of qualifying for less armor.
Polearm master can be a monk rocking a quarterstaff and use Dex. BTW
Both the pole-arm master extra attack and the monks unarmed flurry take your bonus action, in addition a monk has far less room to get feats than a fighter who often not only requires less ability scores to be powerful but also has more ability score increases.
My DM tracks carrying capacity and everything in D&D is absurdly heavy. A character with 8 str practically can't wear clothing.
8*15=120. How much does your clothes weigh
In our group the DM throws in the occasional audit to make sure that your character can carry all the stuff you have listed on your sheet. Folks who dump strength generally fail.
Patrick Ryan who doesnt pay attention to what they can carry?
Most people don't, in my experience. It's extra book keeping most players don't want to deal with. Most players don't even think about how they're carrying around all of their stuff. It's just words on a paper. That, and players have been spoiled by the lack of realistic encumbrance mechanics in video games. They're usually based on weight or space, but rarely both, and you never actually see an item on a character's person unless it's equipped.
Ideally, you try to get ahold of a bag of holding early on, so you don't have to explain how you're carrying around all of those weapons and armor from the last 5 fights. You just put them in the bag and forget about it, sort of. Even the bag of holding has a carrying capacity, but it weighs very little, and isn't cumbersome arms and armor, so it's a good solution until you can get to town and sell stuff.
Alternatively, buy a horse and say that everything not on your person is in the saddle bags.
Also, remember that gold is heavy. Every 10gp weighs a pound. This is the same for other coins. Ideally, you want almost all of your money converted to platinum, if not invested into gems and other light weight valuables so that it's easy to carry around. When you find a hoard of coins, don't forget to acknowledge how much all of those coins actually weigh. Your party might be better off just leaving the copper and silver if they don't have a means to carry it all.
you don't buy the mule first chance you get?
Of course, you could always throw the items to the person or being in the party with the +18 Strength modifier that also happens to bring down buildings in fits of rage and frenzy lol. (Like my old Warforged Juggernaut / Frenzied Berserker / Barbarian / Fighter / Legendary Dreadnought lol)
i just give them a sack of holding in some way to avoid the carry capacity problem
I think if the game were balanced in a way that strength also added the your character’s HP max, it would help differentiate strength based fighters
Yeah, the statistical separation of strength and constitution has always creates some peculiarities in D&D.
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I'm still in the camp that strength is balanced, and also a bit bummed out that as far as i could see in the comment section you guys never responded to any of the well reasoned comments pointing out why.
But if you still think strength is underpowered, here is a simple fix, implement the war bow.
Warbows are longbows built to have massive draw weight for maximum penetrative power and require strength to use.
It's a martial ranged weapon and the profile is the same as a longbow except the damage is 1d10 and it has the Powerdraw feature.
Powerdraw. A ranged weapon with this quality use Strength for to hit and damage rolls instead of Dexterity.
Now not only do you have a more realistic depiction of a bow in your game, but your strength characters are better at melee AND ranged combat than DEX characters who are now primarily good for stealth and skill use and you didn't even need to alter any basic mechanics of the game.
The exclusion of certain properties from certain types of weapons is a basic mechanic of the game. Creating a strength ranged weapon is as powerful a change as bestowing a new class ability, like Shillelagh or Hex Warrior. Probably more so, since it's available to all classes at any level.
Changing the Rapier from a D8 to a D6 would be a very good change. I say that as someone that refuses to play strength based characters in heavy armor because I prefer sneaking and dodging. But I recognize that dexterity is a little bit too powerful compared to strength, especially for the min-maxers that use a rapier. Strength based characters should have weapons that deal more damage than the dexterity based characters.
The only thing that can put finesse weapons up to par is class feautres like Favoured Foe, Eldritch Smite, Deft Strike and Sneak Attack.
I think it's balanced.
The weapons that do the most damage are strength based.
Plate armor allows for an AC of 18 where even with a maxed out dex of 20 and studded leather armor you only get an AC of 17.
If you look at the martial classes they are designed to better take advantage of the strength based weapons. Examples. The champion fighter's improved crit range means that damage gap between weapons shows even more. Even without the great weapon fighting style a great sword does an average of 14 weapon damage on a crit while a rapier does an average of 9. If you play a barbarian your brutal critical feature hits harder with a great axe than a rapier. At level 9 average weapon damage for a barbarian on a crit with a great axe is 17.5 and average for a rapier is 13.5. When the barbarian reaches level 17 that difference has become 32.5 weapon damage on a crit for a great axe and 22.5 for the rapier.
On the surface the dex weapons seem better but when you crunch the numbers and check the math the strength ones are coming out on top and that offsets the other benefits of dex.
Ryan Stoyan the biggest thing is that pam, gwm, and shield master all work better for str. builds. Without feats a deuling rapier is going to outclass the greataxe in ac, and remain within a point of damage. With feats the game changes, suddenly that level 8 str. fighter is making three attacks per turn, each with +10 damage, and has both evasion and a competent dex save.
I feel I should point out that you actually do fire a bow with your strength. he penetrating power (real world equivalent of damage) is determined by draw weight on the bow string. the heavier the draw weight, the more power the arrow would have. also, the heavier the draw weight, the more force (see also: strength) is required to pull back the string. so yes, you do fire a bow with your strength.
D&D is probably assuming that your character can use the bow anyway.
@sum body and it doesnt matter if you hit them with what equates to a wet noodle either
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that D&D is a team game. In my current game we have two rogues so dexterity is covered. By making my fighter strength based he really shines in those situations where the group needs a strongman. By RAW athletics covers more things than acrobatics and I believe this was intentional on the part of the designers since dexterity is already such a powerful and versatile stat.
I compromised and gave my Bard 14 strength and dexterity, then maxed charisma. He's not very good at swinging his longsword, but he gets the job done.
Dexterity and Charisma are your two super stats in 5e. Charisma is your social stat, and dexterity your general purpose stat.
Technically you should use strength for a longbow, because you're not drawing a 180 pound warbow with your agility.
The superiority of Dex is why I play with encumbrance and I always let my player choose between 2d6 and 1d12
I usually use Strength and have a 14 DeX and use medium armor but that's if your rolling for stats and get lucky I honestly feel it all depends on the stats you are given on which one to choose
I think the whole strength based attacks using 1.5x modifier makes sense; Strength for pure power, Dexterity for versatility over power
Don't underestimate athletics. Shoves are great especially once you have extra attack.
I know this comment is old but I believe you're misunderstanding how Extra Attack works. When you take an Attack as an action you get to make a second (or third, or fourth) one. If you take Shove as an action you do not get to attack a downed opponent on the same round, assuming you don't use something like Action Surge of course.
@@islayprettylies9485 In the PHB under Shoving A Creature it says "If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them." (PHB 195) So the PHB specifically calls out that you CAN shove for your first attack.
@@Crazycarswell I stand corrected.
@@islayprettylies9485 I'm a big fan of the shield master feat. You can shove with a bonus action and keep all your (duelist) attacks to hit with advantage. Plus a shield gives you more than a +2 AC, as you can get magic shields that ultimately can add +5! Even the highest level monsters can find an AC of 27-28 daunting, that only a shield wielding fighter can get.
Alexa play Satisfaction by Benny Benassi
I think you miss some RP powers of the strength fighter. Muscles are visible, making bandits or bullies less likely to attack you, making intimidation easier, making it easier for the party to get mercenary work.
I kinda have a general idea for a houserule different damage system- divide slashing, peircing, and bludgeoning damage, and allow some weapons to switch between them. For example, while an arrow is piercing and so is a spear, a broadsword can not only slash, but also stab and even bludgeon with a murder strike, and a halberd can naturally do all 3. I then give each damage type a property- bludgeoning helps against armored opponents and revolves around your strength modifier, piercing revolves around dex and gains bonus to criticals, and slashing implements both and thus has the highest damage potential but no bonus. I think that may balance it out because a 20 strength barbarian might just crush armor, and a 20 dex ranger might get you strait in the heart, but a 15 strength 15 dex fighter might beat them both.
I love all of the comments about the real world while discussing the way things work in a Fantasy world.
Strength also gets all the bigger heavier weapons that do tons and tons of damage, including the ever-deadly Greatsword. And Heavy Armor does have the advantage in that unless you manage to break that 20 Dex limit, it will always have the best AC of all armor types.
What?
Plate armor is 18 AC.
Light armor + 20 DEX is 17 AC.
Add shields and you get to 20 vs 19.
It's only one point, unless the strength guy gets a shield and the dex guy doesn't.
But if you get a shield you're doing at most d8 damage, and the shieldless dex guy can do d6s with one additional attack due to dual wielding, which works out in his favour for damage _and_ reliability.
Poldovico And the Heavy armor guy doesn't need stats to get that 18 AC, they can just get it with money.
I'm not saying that Dex warriors are bad, just that Strength isn't hopelessly outmatched to the point that it's worthless even trying.
RutilusMonachus
Yeah, ok.
Keep in mind magical stuff to - at the point of 20 of any stat you probably have magic ...
Armor of invulnerability (when/if you get to it) is only plate and you get full immunity to nonmagical damage for 10 minutes, Scale mail isn't light and that means you can't wear dragon scale mail, Dwarven plate +2 ac, efreeti chain, plate armor of etheralness... meanwhile there is literally NO magic armor limited to light - in space of being able to do more things with your character there's no question you will have much more opportunity if your character is wearing plate...
The way I would fix a DEX vs STR fighter is by doing what KotOR 2 did with its' finesse feats, by making the finesse property so you only get to use your dex modifier on the attack roll, and you still have to use your STR modifier when determining your damage bonus
archery is a strength stat. archaeologist recognise longbow archers by the signs of massive development of upper body strength. there was a reason that archery was compulsory for men in England back in the middle ages. some warbows pull about 200 lbs keeping it steady required some beef. great show thanks for the effort
Heavy Armor Master is absolutely bonkers as a feat though. 3 DR against slashing, piercing and bludgeoning attacks is an insane amount of survivability at low levels.
You could add/subtract STR modifier on Hit points, like CON. Also to even out DEX a bit, allow the option add DEX or WIS to initiative rolls.
I think the advantages of a strength fighter comes more from the utility it gives you as well as the multiple ways that you can improve it. So what I mean by that is that generally speaking, moving an enemy unless you're a warlock is generally pretty difficult. Whereas, as a strength based character you can attempt to shove, grapple, or knock prone an enemy nearly every turn, potentially removing enemies entirely or providing massive benefits to the party as a whole. As well, there are many, many ways provided via magical items to increase the strength stat, compared with dexterity where the only item I know off the top of my head is the manual of quickness of action. So potions, belts, gauntlets, all of these can provide massive strength improvements, even at uncommon levels, and the only dexterity equivalent is a very rare or legendary item.
I'd be a fan of a Dex to hit and Str to damage. Though in this way you'd also want casters to use two stats so caster-superiority doesn't reign supreme.
Dexterity is more versatile surely?
Focusing on Dexterity over Strength gives you...
-bonus to AC (depending on armour)
- Finesse melee weapons
-ranged weapons (bows, crossbows etc)
-good stats for Acrobatics...
-...Stealth
-...Sleight of Hand
etc.
i'm dex all the way but i like to climb and that is strengt ;-;
Great weapon fighters do more damage, have more ac (or even with duel weilders rapiers), have more options for magic weapons, have more options foraging armour, have more useful feats, can actually grapple, can do athletics (whilst it's the only strength skill it might be the most applicable skill in the game depending on how your DM runs). Dex is still more versatile but it's not as much better as people think
So one thing I'd wish they changed about spears/tridents is giving them reach, and making them a part of the pole arm master feat because as spears/tridents are they have no use being outclasses by a long sword in every way except for throwing it which isn't very good either so it needs a new use like being a reach weapon that can be wielded with a shield because their isn't one of those and you'd have a good reason to use other weapons over spears as glaives, halberds, and pikes all do more damage
yes I know that the whip is a one handed weapon with reach that can be used with a shield, but its a dexterity weapon and it isn't a pole arm so it wouldn't fit in the pole arm master feat
I like strength and heavy armour for fighting, but it's a bit harder to build if you don't put much into dex - you have to account for the frequent Dex saves and Stealth checks.
So equipment for proficiency and advantage in Dex saves and Stealth checks would be necessary to reduce unwanted trouble and damage. :)
Very glad I found you guys, your information on the intricacies of 5th edition D&D have helped me out a lot. Thanks!
I agree over-all as far as Strength vs. Dexterity with Dex being better. But, If you focus on the ability to remove threats from a fight your Strength based grapple character can be a very useful especially with the new Barbarian Battlerager path. Im not sure if the Middle Earth D20 book is core to D&D 5e, but if so it would be pretty good it sounds.
I suggest that base HP = STR at 1st level. ConB modifies additional HP/level.
Str or Dex for Weapon to Hit as is but melee damage bonus only from StrB applying to all melee attacks.
For ranged attacks DexB applies to Hit, StrB applies to damage for thrown, slung or specially made strong bows. Crossbows being made for specific strengths, and slower to load if not strong enough. Basically NO DexB to damages as it is already accounted for by its use in modifying the to Hit chances.
As someone who's done a fair bit of IRL archery, STR is a big factor when using a heavy bow. Could definitely be a homebrew variant consideration. My hunting bow has a 75 lb draw, and even that is light compared to an old school war bow.
Strength's value in my experience is the encumbrance rules, which I have to tweak to make it make sense.
The biggest trade off is that STR isn't as limited by weapon options as DEX is. You find a +3 Longsword and STR fighter getting a big boost as opposed to a DEX with a normal rapier. Though a STR fighter can't switch between melee and ranged as well as a DEX.
Damage types are limited with finesse weapons to piercing damage. If you want to do bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, etc (which is very useful against some enemies and useful for role play attacks too, skeletons are weak to bludgeoning for instance), then you do have to have strength if you want a good attack bonus.
Only started watching recently, and absolutely love it.
Bows should have a minimum strength required to be used but dmg should still use dex as a bonus since aim
Also strength should boost shields somehow since with more strength you can deflect stronger blows with your shield, maybe [AC= 2 + 1/2 str mod] to compensate for all the ways dex adds to your AC
Also longswords should be finesse weapons too (even when two handing it)
Other than that I'd change nothing about how strength and dex works
The dex fighter with a hand crossbow, crossbow expert and sharpshooter is probably my favorite fighter that I have ever played.
(5th here)I think Dexterity straight boost ability checks, while Strenght let you wear better armor (which compensate for the ac) and bring more tools.
In games where I've played I've often saw people forced to leave behind important equipment just to not be encumbranced, and the right item when needed is better than a boost to checks.
The three fixes
1. Armor should have a damage reduction component baked in similar to Heavy Armor Master. Light armor, 0 DR, Medium armor, 1DR, Heavy Armor 3 DR.
2. Dex should apply only to the attack roll, not to damage. Str should still affect any melee attack damage or thrown weapon damage.
3. Bows should have strength requirements which increase as the bows get more powerful. As a bow Hunter, yes, you still have to be able to draw them
With Strength you have a much broader variety of wapons to chose from. Most of the magic weapons you'll find are Strength based. So are all heavy weapons to use with Great Weapon Master, one of the best Feats around. With Strength (Athletics) you can grapple, shove and knock prone, all great combat options. All this comming from a player who is playing a Dexterity Fighter :D
I know this probably already got answered but 3rd edition full plate still allowed for a max dex bonus of +1.
What really tips the scales for me is that the Archery Fighting Style increases accuracy, while the Great Weapon Fighting Style doesn't. May not seem like much, but then there's the Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter Feats that basically turn accuracy into damage at a 1:2 ratio. Not to mention, Sharpshooter also increases accuracy as well (conditionally) by ignoring half/three-quarters cover.
Minor nitpick as well: in 5e mechanics, the duel between the Gregor Clegane and Oberyn Martel would have had Oberyn getting hit more than Gregor, because plate is always going to be at least one point of AC better than any Dex-based armor (and at early levels often a lot more due to the stat investment for studded leather). One goes first and has better saves, while the other hits harder (only factoring weapon dice) and has better AC.
The sheer increase in damage output though for a str fighter is worth considering. 2d6 rerolling 1s and 2s for damage seems pretty good, as well as getting bonus action attack when you slay a foe. Being in the melee is good as well, as you can protect allies who might otherwise be engaged far more easily if enemies have to provoke opertunity to leave melee with you, whearas for Dex fighters to get even close to the damage output of str they have to be using a heavy crossbow requiring an extra feat to use it in melee. Perhaps you could go rapier hand crossbow to try and maximise everything you've got going on, but even then it's non ideal to be sucking up your bonus action with a kinda shitty weapon in order to try to keep your damage on curve.
my dungeon mastered used to allow to make a overwatch tumble save,
where in the case that if i got attacked i could role out of the way assuming my role was good enough
Something important in this is that if both use shields then the Dex fighter has to take the Medium armor master feat to catch up to the Str fighter in AC. Since half plate is 15+2 the Dex fighter with have 19 with half plate with shield or just studded leather with shield where as the Str fighter will have 20 with plate and shield. The Dex fighter needs to take medium armor master just to catch up so the Str fighter has an extra feat or ability score improvement (but has disadvantage on stealth.
Also after reading the section in the DMG about other options in combat, most of the special things in combat are just resolved with Athletics vs Athletics or Acrobatics. A Str fighter should take a proficiency in athletics because it's very versatile in combat for shoving, grappling, climbing, maneuvering, and improvising tactics.
Str based fighters win in terms of damage if they 2 hand or reach if they use a reach weapon (Dex can use a whip, but then their damage is even lower). Str also can be more versatile in combat with wepaon choice or pulling off creative attacks or manuevers due to athletics. A Dex based fighter has a better Dex save, can use better ranged weapons, and has better skills for out of combat situations.
So far this is the most objective comment on this video.
I keep hearing about these Dex things for out of combat, still have to see what they are. I mean the way some people say it it seem like there are things only and ONLY Dex can do, but no one says what they are :(
Here's the math I see for the difference between Strength and Dexterity for melee martial classes.
Example A: Class features and Feats are Ignored
Dexterity->Highest damage finesse weapon(Rapier). Since it's one-handed, you can use a light weapon for two-weapon fighting. Highest light weapon(Shortsword)[finesse not necessary, since no class features/feats are being included, and you don't add dexterity to damage for off-hand weapons.] Total damage hitting all attacks with +5 dex mod: (4.5+5)+(3.5)=13. This uses your bonus action too, however.
Strength->You could use rapier+shortsword for the exact same damage, but if you go with the greatsword, you don't need your bonus action. Total damage on hitting all attacks with +5 str mod: (3.5+3.5+5)=12. So quite close in damage, but you get to keep your bonus action. And you still have the options for two-weapon fighting.
Example B: Class features and Feats are included.
Things get more complicated here, but to make things simpler, I'm going to compare various options for each build.
Weapon Styles: Duelist, two-weapon fighting, defense, and protection are all dexterity and strength. Great weapon fighting is a strength exclusive, and archery is dexterity exclusive. It is worth noting that most of the features that are good for both builds actually benefit strength slightly more(getting more AC from carrying a shield is more useful when your AC is low. Dex usually has better AC, so Str likes it more.) Also, worth noting that archery weapon style isn't usually for melee martial classes.
Feats: There are a ton of these, but since they are technically optional, and many of them overlap...I'll just mention the big two for each build. Strength: Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master. Dexterity: Duel Wielder and Sharpsh...Crossbow Expert?
As you can see, feats for Dexterity have fewer good options, once they go into melee fighting. Not to say there aren't good ones, but generally they are for ranged attackers, specific classes, or also work with Strength.
Other Class features:
Unarmed Strikes->Though monks can go dexterity for great AC and reasonable damage for two-weapon fighting, Strength has better grappling and shoving options.
Sneak Attack->Yea, technically you can go Str here(finesse weapons can use strength), but Dex does everything Str would do, plus some. Rogues should probably have Dex, for power gaming purposes
Ranger->Has fewer weapon style options, making Dex more appealing.
Paladin->Like the ranger, but for Str.
Barbarians->Str absolutely necessary for many class features. Dex valuable for Unarmored Defense though, making barbarian like all 3 physical stats.
Proficiency:
Obviously light armor likes Dex, and heavy armor likes Str. Armor actually provides roughly equivalent AC with correct stats, making unarmored defense the only reason to go Dex for AC. Feats provide some variety as well, but they are difficult to pinpoint exact value. Worth noting that light armor mastery doesn't currently exist.
Generally simple weapons are just weaker martial weapons; that said, Str doesn't have as many options here, and Dex doesn't lose much. Dex wins this.
TL;DR
Dexterity has the advantage on paper, especially the immediate sense for your character. It does comparable damage to Str, is the better option for a few classes, and has additional bonuses to init and AC.
That said, Strength does have more options and versatility than Dex for melee fighting, with more feat options, more classes that can use it, and a wider weapon selection.
To me, that means any melee Dex fighting class needs to hybrid ranged weapon fighting, have unarmored defense as a class feature, be a shorter running campaign, or be a rogue(or a casting class) to be worth it over strength. Since most classes have one of those options, Dex might seem better, but that means some classes, like the Fighter/Barbarian, actually should pick Str in most campaigns.
Although it obviously doesn't mention it in any of the books, I have to feel the over-sized weapons are still insinuated (which is a huge plus for the strength based builds).
As of Volo's release, 3 playable classes (Goliath, Firbolg, and Bugbear) have the "strong build" which doubles your carry weight and lift/push/pull/break. That's 480 lbs (STR 16) of carry weight, and 960 (!!!) of lift/push/pull/break. All those classes are around the 8ft. range... and in the MM, you'll see that Ogrillons are also that tall, yet are rated as Large creatures (albeit having a conveniently named ability that adds a die for attacks). Even the Bugbear in MM has a similar attribute that adds an extra die as well, but not in Volo's... The thing is, it can be debated among those previously mentioned.... until you let one of those classes be a Totem warrior and take the bear totem at lvl 6... 960 Carry weight and 1920 lift/push/pull/break... I can throw a one ton truck, but i can't wield an over-sized sword?
Before people scream OP though, remember the DM doesn't have to make these weapons easily accessible, considering all the playable races are med and smaller. That suggests that your local smithy isn't going to have large weapons just laying around. So players would have to probably get them either by commissioning them (for considerable fees) or pick them up from encounters (of which could be far and few between).
I dunno... What are your thoughts?
*races (not classes)... 8ft tall (of course)
You can still have a dex bonus and favor str. In fact, the str fighter has a higher armor class than dex fighter in your scenerio, as full plate has a higher base AC than anything the dex fighter can put on. (18 full-plate, 17 for armors that mix dex and ac) but full plate does not affect dex saves, initiative, etc. and full plate ac doesn't go down if you have a negative ac. The differences are the fighting styles and which fighter tree you are going to go down. A Battle Master fighter can be a better ranged attacker than a ranger. But if you are sword and board, full plate and shield have a higher ac than a "dex" fighter. Full plate with 2h also offers higher ac if you don't take a shield into account. Even then, if you want to cheese your ac, add an animated shield, go 2h fighter in full plate. But in 5e Full Plate grants the highest ac bonus. BUT, you can still have a dex bonus for your saves, initiative etc. They are not one or the other stats in this edition.
TyrantJD Yes but I find most str based fighters dump dex exactly for the reasons you mention. If you use standard array or point buy you are probably going to have dump stat. That is mostly the we are using with the either or argument.
All of your points are valid. When we discuss builds it is generally from the stand point of mechanical optimization.
Nerdarchist Dave
Great weapons should force strength checks when AC matches from armor with disadvantage or bonus damage against lite barricades(wood).
Depends on the constitution of the warrior on who would last longer.
Rob Roy movie: the claymore using Scotsman vs the British aristocrat using a rapier.
The aristocrat playfully danced and pranced dodging the heavy bladed attacks, while stabbing and slicing multiple bleeds on the Scotsman.
The scotsman eventually got an opportunity and struck, one hit was enough...the scotsman had enough life (hp) to survive long enough to win.
I still like strength fighters because it is easier to augment your ac with armor without too much magic, and you have a few options with combat manuvers like grapple and bull rush
First, this topic was already covered a while back, and it had the same result. The Dexterity and the Strength camps refused to agree.
I will agree that Dexterity has become the "master stat". The majority of saving throws are around it. Outside of Heavy Armor, it determines AC. It factors into Initiative. It has many skills around it. Dex allows for Finesse weapons and can be used for Ranged combat.
That established, I always go with Strength fighters.
Strength determines how heavy your armor can be (Heavy Armors all have Strength minimums), controls Athletics (which will be used far more often than Acrobatics - try "acrobatically" swimming out of a sinking ship), Grappling attacks, and determines the vast majority of melee weapon damage. That sounds like a Fighter to me.
Strength can also be used for Thrown weapons (spears, javelins, axes, hammers, and yes, even daggers) for Strength-based ranged combat, determines lift/pull/carry (important in a survival setting where you may have to carry fallen comrades - been there/done that).
The largest damage die for a melee Finesse weapon is d8 (Rapier). After that, it goes up for Strength-based weapons. Having a d10 for Heavy Crossbow is all well and good, but you'll need a feat or a UA fighting style to make it effective in close quarters, and the Loading property will reduce the number of attacks (again, the Feat is needed). So that means that, outside a Two-Weapon Ranger or a Rogue, there's no need to build a Finesse Fighter.
A Great Weapon Fighter/Great Weapon Master Paladin (assuming a 16 Str at start) who Smites on a Crit has the potential to do 79 points of damage in one blow. That's at level 2. Sure, it's an extreme example, but he can also do that while still having an AC of 18 in full plate. At the same level, with a similar Crit, a Rogue will max out at 58 with a Heavy Crossbow/Sharpshooter. Add Basic Poison and you might gain another 12. Yes, the Rogue's sneak attack really builds steam after 3rd, and yes, it will eventually have that massive one-shot with the Assassin, but that will take time - and it will still have an AC max of 17 without magic...18 IF it takes Dual Wielder...and that will need the Rogue to be a minimum of 10th level (Human variant - Feat at 1st), or 12th (everyone else). Rogues will, over time, be the master of the one hit, true. But that Paladin can do it all by himself on a clear day without help. Advantage, allies, surprise, etc. aren't needed.
This doesn't account for Sentinel, Polearm Master, Barbarian Rage, or any one of several ways to knock characters/monsters prone - which brings that Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic to bear.
In the end, Strength fighters have far more choice for armor and weapons, more feats to back up their choice, how much they can carry and lift, and Athletics - which, albeit the ONE skill determined by Strength, is also the ONE skill that determines climbing, running, swimming, jumping and any other sort of travel through difficult circumstances (outside of tightrope walking). That sounds like a dungeon to me. If you're going to cross a river, climb a rope, scale a cliff, or jump over a pit - it's not Dexterity that will save you.
House Rules aside, this is how things are.
one thing...he definitely did not remember 3rd Edition well at all. All armors begin carrying a max Dex bonus. So sure...take your massive dex...but you are essentially stuck with light armor until you acquire enough gold to change to mithril. Staying in 3rd...the best starting AC you can have is 18 or 20 (tower shield excluded)..depending on if you use a shield..high dex or not. Sure going lighter might help your reflex..but that is mostly for avoiding traps or spells.
If you look at DEX vs STR and just look at saving throws, AC, and missile attack bonuses, then yes, DEX does seem better than STR.
However, 5e D&D is nicely layered and there are some GREAT builds that prefer a high STR. Once you factor in things like feats, the damage output from a STR based warrior really takes off.
For example, I played a variant human paladin with an 18 STR and took Polearm Master for my feat (DEX was a dump stat). I also took Defense for my fighting style. With a halberd, I started off with two attacks (1 regular attack, 1 bonus attack), PLUS a possible opportunity attack when anybody entered my halberd's range (the two square range almost triples the amount of squares you threaten with op attacks).
I ended up getting A LOT of attacks and I was consistently putting out a great deal of damage in melee combat (yes, my ranged game was admittedly lackluster). Defensively, I was quite tanky with just mundane plate mail which I wore for most of the campaign.
I did occasionally switch to a single-handed magic weapon and shield combo when I needed to tank up a bit, but my damage output became pathetic. Yes, the weapon was weaker, but it was really the loss of that bonus attack and the possible reaction attack that gimped me.
How about every point of strength is added to a point of damage resistance. It's not much but it's pretty good.
Are you kidding? It's insanely powerful!
EDIT: Wait, you mean modifier. Yeah, that can work. It gets less and less useful with leveling though.
Poldovico yeah but most strength builds would be running some extra buffs to their strength also it really fits thematically with the brute who can take a lot of hits. also sorry I didn't clarify that it was the ability modifier than the individual points of strength. but if you also pair this ability with the heavy armor mastery you could have dr of 8 and that's pretty good in 5th edition.
immoralnight98
Yeah, pretty good is an understatement I think.
Until you're going up against really big monsters, 8 dr is amazing.
Good video and I generally agree. A couple details I would pile on: in some setups a finesse weapon user can wear a shield so that's another 2 AC for the build, and Fighter offers a straight +2 damage for this setup.
That being said, the fact that 2-handers deal more damage means they'll never just be objectively worse, it's just a matter of how much defense you're willing to give up. And there are definitely certain setups that work well for it, typically involving Barbarian or heavy armor. The balance isn't too bad. Maybe finesse should cap at a d6 or maybe they should drop their obsession with even numbers and give it a d7, but there are still a decent amount of two-hander builds I can play where I don't feel like I'm running a sub-optimal character.
All that being said, the real victim here is 1-handed strength-based weapons...
Why? The one-handed strength weapons still get the duelist bonus, and they allow you to carry a shield which in turn can give you the shove.
Miklos Mihok Yep. You get shove, grapple, and carrying capacity instead of all the benefits that come with having a high Dex. If you find shove that important then more power to you. Even with 1h weapons, Dex still isn't just objectively superior, but I think the gap is wider than with 2h Str and 1h Dex.
It comes down to bonus to the situations you are in. You keep saying benefits of having high Dex, but you do not give any of them. Excluding initiative, there are ways to take care of anything in one way or the other.
In so far the balance of both attributes i is good to the fighter. I am talking just about the fighter.
As for the other 'traditional martial' classes:
-Barbarian, people keep trying to sell the Dex barbarian by trowing out half of its abilities based again on the idea that Dex is superior to Str
-Monk, can be played Str but its defining feature simply makes you play Dex
-Paladin balanced, again depends on your preference
-Ranger veers to Dex, but Str is not unimaginable
-Rogue, the assassin because it is the murderhobo where the idea of Dex being superior comes from.
The biggest things Dex offers are initiative, AC, and one of the most powerful saving throws in the game. Str doesn't offer anything over Dex that is as statistically potent as those 3 things, and only the opportunity cost of AC can be avoided through other means (and may require other sacrifices, depending on the build). Aside from those things, Dex and Str have comparable (albeit different) advantages in terms of Skills, Attack, and Damage when it comes to 1h weapon users.
Based on my suggestion that finesse weapons should cap at 1d6 or 1d7 damage (i.e. lose 0.5 - 1 point of damage) obviously I don't think this advantage is huge or game-breaking, but I do think 1h finesse is slightly overpowered.
you guys have mentioned "middle earth" book in several videos. what are you referring to?
I think a lot of people undersell strength. Strength helps both with getting grappled and grappling. Items in the DMG boost strength above 20, where no other item will boost dex like that. Think of all the Giant's belts....also think about Great Weapon master feat also! That's not a dex based thing. You also got to think about the plate armor items in the DMG! 2 handed weapons do more dmg on average too. Also in order to cast you need a free hand. so as acaster with a 2 hander you can cast because you ONLY need to use two hands DURING the attack. You cannot cast with a sword and shield or dual wielding unless you got Warcaster or put your weapon away.. If you go dual wielding you give up your bonus action to attack....when really you could be using your bonus action for things like Great Weapon Master.
ALSO! IF we are playing by the RULES you can only ATTUNE 3 MAGIC ITEMS. I allow more then that in my campaign but this MEANS....if you dual wield or use a shield you already have TWO items attuned....assuming you want both of those to be magical. At the very least you have to FIND both those pieces of loot. With a two handed weapon you are only attuning one ITEM and you only have to find ONE item. This means a Str fighter could be using a Spell resistance cloak, Giants belt and some bad ass two hander. Or magical plate mail. I would skip the magical plate and just pick up a +1 Adamantine Plate hopefully. Which isn't super rare really. It requires no attunement and turns crits into normal hits.
If you choose not to have both dual wielded weapons as your attuned items. Then your off hand isn't magical and does half dmg to monsters who resist it. Which is a lot of creatures as you level up.
Breaking down doors! Also LONG JUMPING is a STRENGTH based thing.
While you can resist grapples and such with Acrobatics. Athletics is always the stat used to initiate Pushes, Grapples, Shoves etc. So a dex character can defend against them but not initiate them, while a strength character can do both.
How do you use dexterity to add damage using a bow
Anyone else miss 3rd ed compound bows and adding str to the damage?
Sometime i'm happy that my multiclass get strong with only 2 asi in dex. Sometime i think that dex and strength might be use together in any hit, like dex give more chance to hit but strength more damage and more heavy weapon yet each give the two but not at the same level.
The thing is you are forced to make a choice then you get almost nothing more to invest in the other, if your defense is dex and light armor your stuck in it, and with heavy armor too.
Had not thought of the 1.5X damage, but have already implemented the 2d6 for our regular game. Will definitely use them both. 1d12 is my least favorite to roll. Played a one off game last weekend combining my two regular groups (Happy Thanksgiving) and the ranger hit twice with her 1d12 weapon and used hunters mark.... she rolled three 1's.
Why the fighting style is so good
I think that STR would really have a leg up on DEX if weapon damage type mattered more. DEX characters are pretty much locked into piercing damage, with the exception of the Scimitar and the Sling. Where as STR characters get every damage type at every die level, except 1d12/2d6 piercing damage. So one adv. a STR fighter could have is breadth of damage options, particularly bludgeoning damage. But unfortunately physical damage types rarely matter in 5e.
Also, don't forget that finesse weapons can still be used with STR. A lot of people tend to assume you need DEX to use a dagger or a rapier, which is not the case.
Lance is good for 1d12 peircing with STR. Better if you are mounted.
I love the idea of using 1.5 str mod for dmg when using a heavy weapon with two hands.
A d8 one-hand wep with dueling does the same avg dmg as a d12 two-handed, unless they get to reroll 1s n 2s, but then i got +2ac from my shield which i think is way better, i will suggest this the next time i play, and not use it cus i love my shield too much and does decent dmg.
Your ignoring GWF which everyone seems to do. If he's only ever using his greataxe like that your right he may aswell just go Sword and board, but he SHOULD be smiting his enemies with unholy fury using GWF whearas your best feat, whilst incredible (shield master) doesn't amp your damage in nearly the same way. Pluss when he kills somone he gets a bonus action attack. He also IS rerolling ones and twos which you need to account for when comparing the two of you. Sure your build might be a little better overall but it isn't much, and when it comes down to eliminating enemies from the battlefield he's Gona do a better job. Pluss, whilst your AVG damage is the same he has better potential damage because his peak is higher (yes he has a lower Min too but he gets to reroll those).
Using a bow requires substantial upper body strength..... especially long bows....I’d say for my games..... a strength based fighter could use a bow and use the strength mod for damage as well as hit. The damage would be how far the arrow penetrates the target and to hit would be the ability to control and aim said bow while drawing it back with the heavy draw weight. You have proficiency with all weapons so that means you know how to use them therefore you’d have techniques down.
Higher Level play, Belt of Giant Strength FTW!
Big and strong go together in the natural world. Maybe if you made strong characters get a buff to constitution or something? That way they they can at least take a punch better than the dex based fighter?
I believe in pathfinder and D&D 3rd ed (not to sure about 3rd), Bow users needed Dexterity for attack rolls but could only add more damage to the damage roll of there Bows if they had a compound bow and it matched there Strength modifier. So pathfinder rangers, fighters and anyone else that wanted to get the most out of bows couldn't just dump stat strength they needed at least a passable Strength stat to hit hard but also needed a good Dexterity stat to ever hit there target but I'm not sure how they changed things In 5th then it comes to that
I pick strength or dex depending on what makes sense with the character. I have one fighter npc that I control as a DM with a soldier background, meant to be front line, a tank, being super dodgy and quick didnt make sense in my eyes, I wanted him to be large and scary and threatening. If I played as a character and chose fighter I'd pick dex
being on the front lines makes you much more likely to run across things that require str. being crushed under a statue and whatnot. in addition str gives the option to grapple which is under utitlized and can be very powerful.
lastly I have had both dex based and str based fighters and the option to switch from dealing 1d8 to 2d6 to 1d12 on a horse and maintaining combat effectiveness is invaluable. getting stuck in a situation where your party has been disarmed and all you can find are clubs sucks for everyone but the str based. and finally, it cannot be overstated how powerful heavy armor master and/or gwm are. they make the game and there is no equivalent for a dex based melee fighter. now archer with sharpshooter is another story entirely but their a.c. is pretty bounded and having an attacker next to them basically nullifies them.
Its in the name and the description... "Great Weapon" and stressing "weight of a weapon" implying HEAVY... as you read below, look at it as a two column entry
**********************************************************************************************************************
Great Weapon Master
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your
advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes.
You gain the following benefits:
• On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a
How is Dex a superstat?
Miklos Mihok they explain it in the video..... DEX is bonus to most everything; AC, many skills, initiative, most common save, in 5E attack and damage with alot of weapons..... no other ability score has as much impact as DEX.
Dex AC will 9/10 times be inferior to AC from armor, for a fighter.
What are these 'many skills', and how would you interpret them in character. Is there one Dex check can do something a Str check cannot, besides stealth [even that is debatable]?
Initiative, this is one thing that Dex has over Str.
Most common save, but not nearly the most devastating one, no need to look further than fighter class itself, the battlemaster maneuvers.
Attack and damage are the same if you have the same bonus to attributes, so there is no advantage to using either. Except for ranged weapons, some not all.
Wis has far more impact than Dex, Con even more so, Cha in 'out of combat' situations, using Dex to understand and plan things is not as helpful as Int.
As for Str not being viable, you could argue all you want but:
It is a matter of choice and preference. A Dex fighter does not need to rely on his gear as much, a Str fighter has more options in combat.
I will say it in simple terms so as not to be miss interpreted: Dex is not superior to Str, nor is the other way around true.
wow... umm... ok, lets take a look at two fighters:
Fighter (A) is a two-handed heavy weapon fighter that is STR based (Str:20, Dex:12, Con:18)
Fighter (B) is a one-handed finesse weapon fighter that is DEX based (Str:12; Dex:20, Con:18)
Now Fighter (A) with just equipment and stats can have a max AC of 21
Now Fighter (B) with just equipment and stats can have a max AC of 25
hmmm... looks like DEX is winning out... and yes DEX guy has a shield, but........
Now Fighter (A) and Fighter (B) have the same exact bonus to hit and damage so...
Fighter (A) is using a Great Axe with a minimum damage of 9 and a max of 20 with a median of 16
Fighter (B) is using a Rapier with a minimum damage of...... 9 hmm..... max 16 with a median of 13
However, the DEX based fighter could forego the shield (AC drops to 20, only 1 less than FighterA)...
Fighter (B) now dual wields and suddenly min damage is.... 18 hmm.... max 32 with a median of 26...
Fighter (B) with single weapon shield has higher AC with slightly less damage median
with dual wielding his AC is virtually the same as fighter(a) but his damage output....
This is a no brainer at the DEX vs STR question... to make it worse, if both were Barbarians and both had their armor destroyed, the DEX based would have an even more EXTREME advantage
MOST COMMON SAVE... how often do you face a STR save???... or a CHA save???
Sense this whole thing is over DEX vs STR fighters.... DEX is 3 skills, STR is 1... not sure, but I think 3 is more
and yes the other ability scores have more impact... in those very particular situations but, DEX still effects more overall. (OH... and while wearing heavy armor, stealth is at disadvantage... hmm)
and the Dex fighter not needing to rely on his gear, and the Str fighter having more options..... wow, thats just so far off I don't even know where to begin.
FAR more options for DEX if you really understand the system, and everyone needs gear to nearly equal extent, tho the monk has a SLIGHT advantage in that area.
Physical RP is same for both, one is super strong RP, the other super acrobatic and nimble...
OVERALL it is obvious that DEX has greater impact compared to STR in fighter builds and overall game mechanics
I've been playing and DM'ing D&D for 30 years, since the the RED box set when you didn't choose a class, you chose a race and that determined everything including your "class", AD&D 1st print 1st edition to 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5, 4th(which sucked), to current... not to mention the MANY other systems and other d20 base ones... DEX(or Agility for some systems) has NEARLY always been more advantageous than your other stats, but especially so in the D&D series. Although in early 1st edition AD&D it wasn't quite as advantageous as it became by 3rd edition, which is where it really swung into the air.
I am not questioning your experience, I will not flaunt my experience since I do not have 30 years. But I will pose a few questions that are unclear in your, statements, opinions, ideas however you call them:
1) A strength fighter has to arbitrarily fight with a two-handed weapon, the discussion is no on two-handing, two weapon, ranged vs melee. What the discussion is on why do you believe Dex to be 'superstat'.
2) How did you achieve AC of 25 with mundane items or were you referencing some magical items?
12[studded leather]+5[dex]+2[shield] is 19,
18[full plate]+noDex+2[shield] is 20.
There is also the option of wearing medium armor with the feat, and this is that last variant of 15[hlafplate]+3[dex, from the feat]+2 shield.
To my humble knowledge, the PHB, and grade school math, at the assumed 20/12 respective spread of Str/Dex. But if I overlooked something please tell me.[PHB145]
3) You are talking about theory-crafting with the 'math' you have shown. With again assumptions, not facts. To my knowledge 1d12+5 is not 9-20 it is 6-17, with a median of 11[11.5] with a possible re-roll making the median 12[12.33]... etc...
What you fail to see is that every finesse weapon can be used with Str, and optionally with Dex making all the damage output of Dex equal to the Str damage output with the same weapons.
But as you said this is damage output, and as it was shown time and again damage output is less relevant than status effects, like prone for example[PHB195-196]:
That the Str fighter of 20Str/12Dex and proficiency can call an opposed check at a d20+[2-6]prof+5Str
and the Dex fighter at 20Dex/12Str can do at d20+optional proficiency+1Str
With every attack action [not ever attack] within 5ft. The Dex fighter has the option, it is just less viable.
4) Barbarians are another topic, all together. There are fun RP options for dex there, fun implying they should be played not implying HURDURSUBOPTIMAL.
5) As for the Str save, I have already said you need not look further than the class, but hey if you are confident with doing prof+1 saves vs disarms or being knocked prone, power to you.
6) You have intentionally miss read my formulations, or you are so blinded in your conviction that you do not want to see reason:
A Str fighter relies on armor for AC thus a Dex fighter relies less on his equipment, as for the once again COMBAT OPTIONS look back to the example in point 3). One option or a bit, it is still more. But if you talk about outfitting people with magic items it is a different topic once again.
7) Skills: the reverse of what I addressed in the example of point 3), those options exist they are just less likely to be used.
But for the sake of argument, you get 4-5 proficiencies as you make your character, there are mechanics allowing you to take more as time progresses in game. So unless you are making a specific one note character [the backallymurderhobo who grew up on the streets] you would have to spend 500gp and the same amount of days in game time to gain proficiency with those other skills. In other words you would halt the progression of the game for more than a year in game, thus making what you imagine as better numbers be more important than the game and impose your opinions on the people you are playing with. If your gaming group agrees with that power to them. My groups would and have gone on with such characters, and went on adventuring instead of learning how to add a prof bonus to their Dex based skills.
On the other hand that heavy armored fighter, trying to sneak trough an elvish glade, had a fun time explaining to the guards why he was trespassing while the arcanist guided him with whispers, and the lost boy came back to his father leaving the guards baffled as to where he came from and where did their purses go.
Here is my conclusion after some analysis and generating several thousand rounds of combat (average damage). With the sum of the extra benefits, DEX builds to win out over STR builds in the 5e combat (without custom items or DM additions), however the addition of Belts of X Giant STG push/set these stats higher than DEX can reach in 5e giving the adequate boost it needs for superior DPS of DEX builds.
If only X amounts of strength would add to hp bonus, Same way con does but for much less. draw strength is a real thing. Archers build up their bodies overtime to handle larger and more powerful bows.
.. . . . I've done some ridiculous stuff with fighter. My favorite is a Diablo 3 "Demon Hunter" build. I.E. Dual Wielding 5 round mag fed hand crossbows w/ cross bow master feat variant human. I maxed out dex at 12th level and was getting 7 shots off every round of combat. Combined with sharpshooter that's 70 dmg alone with just that if every shot hits. I one turn K.O. his third boss.
That and I could still be upfront because I could point blank shoot with Crossbow Master.
If things go south . . . Pull out a Tower shield and be a sentry turret and still shoot 4 times a round.
"Imagine firing your longbow with your strength!? hahahaha!"
You guys do know that historical english longbows are strength-based weapons, right?
Those are originally WELSH, but you're right. Some of those have about a 70 lb draw...
Shouldn't bows be strength though. For long bows to be effective you would need to be very strong to draw them
@sum body Doesn't matter how good your aim is if you can't pull the string back far enough to propel the arrow the distance
I was hoping you would go a little more in depth with the dex fighters options as well, like one handing rapier and the duelist feat etc
Strength based weapons has a huge advantage over Dex based melee-weapons, (almost) all d10, d12 and 2d6 weapons are strenght based, while dex weapons usually end at d8. which means that dex weapons average a d8 => 4,5 per hit, while d10 is 5,5 and d12 is 6,5 and 2d6 is 7 dmg average per hit. - this also translates to more relevant critical hits.
Also while a 1 on the damage dice is a 1 in both cases, strenght based builds have more of an advantage to pick great weapon fighting as a fighting style since they _can_ wield two handed weapons. while a d8 roller will roll 1 every 8th time, a d12 guy will roll 1 1/36 times.
We play so that strength or charisma can be used for intimidation and we have greatshields in our games that have higher ac but strength requirements.
Interesting points to have brought up, I hope they can resolve it whenever 6th edition is released.
On the topic of bows with strength, I always thought it was strange that there wasn't a bow that at least relied on strength for damage. Could something like that be done where Dex determines the to hit and Strength would determine the damage bonus?
Ulysses's bow couldn't be drawn by anyone with a lower strength than his. I could see a specially made bow that has a stronger pull could add a strength bonus, but it would probably take a master craftsman a lot of experimenting to get it correct, if your dm allows it in his campaign at all. It also would be pretty difficult to be replaced if it got damaged.
one of the biggest benefits of strands based fighting is the fact that you can grapple well. very well if you optimise with feats. that means you grab that dex based fighter and hold him down, speed zero, for his entire turn. once you get your hands on him he's locked down quite effectively. also nets. don't think you can dexter your way out of a net, even if the DC is low (13? sorry, on my phone in the car don't have the books with me) I believe it's still a str check to break out once caught.
Perhaps I read it wrong, but I remember seeing Great weapon fighting as a fighting style, stating you could re-roll a 1 or 2 but you'd be forced to take whatever result that was.
So, does this mean if you use a greatsword (2d6) with this ability, and you roll a 1 and a 2, you can re-roll both? If so, this may have become the best weapon in the game, not including magical things. Sure with dueling and a rapier you get a free +2 to your damage all the time, but if you can just keep re-rolling bad dice rolls, it basically negates that issue.
Dexterity is one of if not the most commonly used stat in the game. Using both Sleight of Hand and Steal, both are very common especially the latter. Then there's initiative, the one non-skill in the game and it's effected by Dexterity on ALL classes. Even Wizards need high DEX for Mage Armor (which honestly is dumb). Not saying every character needs DEX but getting DEX is always a very good choice no matter what. It's a bit OP if you think about it.
My Dex based monk almost always dealt more damage than the strength based fighter in our group. To the point that he got a powerful weapon so he could do more damage. Still nothing close to what I could do. Monk's multi attacks and using Dex makes them incredibly brilliant for front line attackers. Their high Dex and movement make then awesome at mage attacker as well.
This is an important balance point. I think it works out in a high magic setting where magic items are always available - there are a lot of str buff items and not so many for dex, but not every setting should be like that, and a lot of dms are going to homebrew dex items without realizing it defeats a balance point. This is a design flaw.
It's not too bad to be honest I'm the magic item front. If you don't get that specific magic rapier your character is going to be loathed to switch to somthing like the magic longsword or war hammer or even greatsword that you've foind. Not every magic item you find will be taylored to you, but str fighters are more versatile in that respect. Pluss a bunch of the magic armour is heavy only
I feel like strength should give another mechanic to it. I feel like, since strength characters are almost always going to be in the thick of it, the strength bonus should also add to your total hit points every level. The in game flavor for this being that, the more muscle-bound you are, the more it adds to your overall health and abilities.
There also needs to be more saves and skills that applies to strength as well.
4th edition had two armor groupings: light and heavy ... light armor stacks fully with DEX MOD or INT MOD to determine AC, no max limit, while heavy armor made DEX and INT effectively useless for AC ...
strength is not irrelevant if you actually use encumbrance rules, throw lots of strength based checks at the player outside of combat. Example: Trap the players in a room while enemies are flooding in (might be an assault on a stronghold that turned south when the alarm was raised). The only way out of combat and into a chase would be a secret door that just so happens to be seriously jammed. They might find it just fine, but without a strong burly guy to open it, theyre stuck and the combat situation just complicates matters further with disadvantages. If they survive or not, you've just taught the munchkins a valuable lesson about why strength is an important stat.
Great video - Dave - that shirt is awesome!!
Weapons with heavy trait should grant double the strength modifier to damage dealt
Dexterity giving you AC is immaterial for any martial class with access to heavy armor, which are also the best warriors. Great Weapon Fighter, letting you reroll 1's and 2's on damage dice make strength fighting superior to dexterity fighting. At the end of the day, though, Charisma is the best stat for a warrior. A high charisma 2 or 6 Paladin/X Sorcerer with a Belt of Giant Strength is going to completely demolish every other martial class in both tanking (plate armor + shield spell) and offense (for a 2 paladin use twinned booming blade, each divine smited, all damage rerolled on 1's and 2's, and with a 6 paladin do a bonus action quickened green flame blade after your two smiting attacks).