"Someone with a DSD cannot help the way they were born but they can choose not to cheat; they can choose not to take medals from women; they can choose not to cause injury." -- Suzanne Moore, Columnist, The Times
"How do we balance..." As a former high school and collegiate basketball player, this attitude irks me. There is no way to create "balance" when it comes to having males compete against women in any organized sports. The claim of "balance", "fairness", "compassion", "kindness" are uniformly used to diminish the importance and sovereignty of women only sports.
I'm a coach and this is what I keep trying to say. Society doesn't care about the burden it constantly imposes on women so that men are not inconvenienced in the slightest. We have to bend over backwards to humbly request some fairness and safety for women and I, for one, am tired of it. "Rights are not like pie men sneer as they go in for another serving." Sometimes, there can be no middle ground and this is one of them.
@@senryu93 Yes, enough is enough. Even if we don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak, we all need to make the minimal effort to contact our representatives and let them know violating women's rights to appease men is unacceptable. And it's not just about sports it's about women's spaces as well.
Who are Khalif's female sparing partners that have been withrown by their coches because it was dangerous? Can we check that statement?
4 місяці тому
@@desertcat4193jfc...are women capable of making EVERYTHING about themselves? Even for 1 second? This batshit craziness is a DIRECT result of feminism and it's nonsense
Is this going to happen at every Olympics. I real feel for her. She was born a girl. I have seen photos of her has a little girl. I don't trust IOC. JK needs suing. She trolls trans kids and their mums and dads. JK shows hate to trans people and it has got worse in the past few years. I know she is not Imane is not trans. She is a good and brave person.
When I saw Khelif's coach put her on his shoulders, I immediately thought that the coach knows that Khelif is a male. It's extremely unlikely that a Moslem man would ever do that with a Moslem woman, especially a woman who is not a spouse or a sibling, and they come from a very conservative Muslim country. The coach knows Khelif is a male.
I don’t think she a male, she is just hermaphrodite, since Intersex people have various forms of genetical development. Anyhow the issue is that everyone predicted she was going to win due to having a male upper body, and they were right, nobody even knows if she is a good fighter or not. She just hits harder and is taller
First of, Muslim countries are not all the same in regards to these customs, and second, why would you expect the most conservative behavior from the Women's boxing team?
I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, so here goes. From what I understand 97% of Algeria's population identify as Sunni Muslim. Sunni Muslim societies only recognise 2 sexes, you are either a male or a female and nothing in between. If Muslims believe this Khelif person does not have any exterior male sex organs, then they also believe he must be a female.
@@ChristianDoretti Khalif definitely is intersex. Dr. Hilton highly suspectsthat khalif most likely has the same DSD intersex condition as Caster Semenya which is 5 alpha reductase deficiency, which affects only males. During puberty they will develop as male and will see growth in their penis due to their high testosterone levels. Khalif has a male body and it was already proven Khalif was producing male level hormones.
Here some specific statistics from Helen Joyce’s book Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality: “The average adult man has 41 percent more non-fat body mass (blood, bones, muscles and so on) than the average woman, 50 percent more muscle mass in his legs and 75 percent more in his arms. His legs are 65 percent stronger, and his upper body is 90 percent stronger. The overwhelming upper-body advantage is nowhere near accounted for by differences in size - as can be seen in weightlifting competitions, where competitors are banded by weight, and the male world champion in each category lifts around 30 percent more than the female one.”
And that’s the difference between AVERAGE men and women. Among high performance individuals, the difference is even wider as men can gain more muscle mass than women over time, their strength and speed caps being higher.
The Olympics did use the chromosome Y mouth swab test. Now they act as though they have to use a more invasive test to determine Y. It’s all hoodwinking for discourse. I won’t watch Olympics and haven’t for years due to the corruption in the Olympics.
The thing is, there is actually nothing inherently unfair about males competing against females. What is unfair is a male competing in a category designed to exclude males. Fairness does not (and cannot) determine why and how the categories are defined. Rather, fairness comes into play once the rules are decided. This is something most people seem not to understand. Even this interviewee doesn't appear to fully understand this, or at least is not doing a great job of conveying it.
Dr Hilton based her opinion on kalif being male because the Russian oligarch run suspended IBF said kalif indirectly alluded to kalif being xy and some who spared with kalif said they thought kalif had male punching power. Hilton failed to mention that members of the IBF held a press conference where they politicized the situation acting extremely unprofessional making many of accusations about the west and wokeness and refused to give the test results. I though she claims to be scientific based in her judgments.
Thanks! This was very well and educationally explained❤❤❤❤❤. If you have gone through male puberty, you have nothing to do in women's sports. nothing at all!
What’s ’male puberty’? Puberty is just a process all people go through if they live long enough. The question isn’t what kind of puberty did somebody go through, but whether the person going through the process is male or female. And how is that determined? Traditionally, at birth via genital inspection. And what do you call a baby born without a penis and without testicles? A girl. And if the girl goes through puberty, that’s female puberty. Sure, you can also use a genotype test - and for 99.9% of people with a Y chromosome, the resulting fetus will have a penis and testicles. But if the Y chromosome is defective, you won’t necessarily get a baby born with a penis and testicles. So what do you call that baby? A girl - a girl with a DSD. See, the biology doesn’t compel one answer to the question -what is a woman. Different tests can be used and different interpretations of those tests can be given. Science isn’t well suited for classifying anomalies, and DSDs are anomalous. Like determining if Pluto is a planet or not - scientists disagree b/c they have different criteria. So you’re right - somebody who goes through ‘male puberty’ shouldn’t compete in female sports. But what’s a ‘male’? If khelif is female, she had a female puberty. And whether she’s female or not, depends on which biological criteria are used. So we’re back to square one and ‘puberty’ has nothing to do with it. The biologists fooled you and you didn’t catch the fast-move she made. She went on and on about policy considerations that are totally outside biology. You might as well get my grandmother to rabble on about policy. It’s irrelevant to biology and the core issue of - what is a woman?
@@RC-qf3mp A woman is an adult human female. Every person with a DSD is also either male or female just like everyone else, and most importantly, claims of being "trans" have nothing to do with DSDs. Khelif is male. What sex one is, determines which corresponding puberty one goes through genius. Males are stronger than females PRIOR to puberty as well.
@@RC-qf3mp Did you listen to anything Dr Emma Hilton said? If so, I don't think you understood. You are a zealot in denial of reality. Why? Why don't you stand up for real women against this glorified abuse?
Khelif and the other boxer were tested by two officially recognised labs as to whether they qualified as female. They failed both tests. AND THEY ACCEPTED THE RESULTS!
seriously, the two boxers knew in 2022 of the tests. They did know. I would also think that in puberty when they didn't get a period and grew the male body something would have clicked that something was not as it should be. They were given the results and they did crash the party. The coaches tried for the past year to get the testosterone level down. This be nice is not being nice to all the other women athletes as well as every woman in the world. I am done giving these people the benefit of the doubt and the kindness they don't deserve.
The question isn’t whether an athlete has a Y chromosome - the question is whether somebody is female. And genotype testing is one test; phenotype (genital inspection) is another test. For 99.99% of human history, genital inspection at birth is what determines if somebody is male or female. What do you call a baby born without a penis and without testicles? A girl. That’s a biological determination and valid test. The problem with DSDs is that different tests produce divergent results, so it depends on which biological test is used, and the biology doesn’t compel any one test. The biologist begs the question in referring to somebody with a Y chromosome as necessarily being ‘male’, but that’s what we’re trying to figure out. I sure wouldn’t call a baby born without penis and without testicles a ‘male’. As for sports, it’s purely a policy issue which test to use and who’s allowed to compete. Contrary to Emma, this case has nothing to do with ‘human rights’ or ‘gender identity’. It has to do with a purely biological question and the answer to the question is that the biology can’t answer the question. Why not? B/c there’s gray area in nature, and it’s arbitrary how to carve up the gray area.
@@RC-qf3mp Every person with a DSD is either male or female just like everyone else. Khelif is male. Males are stronger than females PRIOR to puberty as well.
@@mattvanderwalt6220 they did the test twice, so they passed a year before, failing the second test mid-competition. Why? They haven't even told us what was tested for.
@@RC-qf3mp atlete with Y chromosome is genetically male, because biological females have XX chromosome and no Y chromosomes except for mozaics which are extremely rare and even in that case They would have advantage over XX exclusively. There is no ‘Gray area. Science understands exactly what’s happening But people like you pretend things aren’t clear to suit their agenda.
Anyone else here wishing to return to school with Emma as both the biology teacher and the principal? I mean, I love biology, and my teacher was good. but Dr Hilton is a real gem.
i would imagine they're not approaching it from that viewpoint, they'll probably think "i've been dealt a bad hand here and i'm going to play it to win". also the fact that the policy of the IOC allows them to compete, so they don't feel any guilt because they're competing under the rules that have been set. as of now the IOC are saying they won't govern the next Olympic boxing, which is an admittance of failure... they want to pass the buck and move away from this shyt show ASAP.
Nobody was forced into a ring with anybody. The IOC has rules, and the rules dictate who qualifies to compete in the ‘women’s category’. If Khelif broke the rules, then point out which rule was broken. The fact is the IOC rule is to look at passport classification, and Khelif has F on the passport. You are infantilizing women by suggesting they can’t consent to the rules of a game.
@@tinawebley3985 If Algeria issues the passport that says Khelif is female, and if Khelif is not female, then the IOC is victim of Algeria. But Algeria doesn’t allow for sex changes or gender identity - so Khelif was deemed female at birth. So maybe you should sue the doctor who looked at baby Khelif, saw that baby Khelif has no penis and no testicles, so marked ‘F’ on the birth certificate. Do you think the doctor should be sued and that it’s mistaken to believe that such a baby is female? What country are you from and how do they classify babies in your country that are born without a penis and without testicles?
@@RC-qf3mp You are completely off base. Just like in a fair fight a male could sue if the other male was roided up to be 2.5x stronger than they could ever be, and they had to fight them assuming they were fighting a fair fight, this works the same way.
@@sirellyn there are rules against using steroids. There isn’t a rule against having a DSD. If there were, it would be illegal and discriminatory. You need to show which IOC rules Khelif broke. If you don’t like the IOC rules, take it up with the IOC. Don’t hate the player, hate the rule-making body. And while you’re at it, please define for us what a ‘female’ is, because where i come from, if a baby is born without a penis and without testicles, it’s a female, not a male. Maybe where you’re from, lots of men have no balls. I would’nt be surprised. 😯
sport selects for advantage. That's why male-DSD athletes with the benefits of male puberty (like Semenya) are so disproportionately overrepresented in women's sports (compared to the prevalence in the general population). The only way to fairness for female athletes is: sex verification early in the career, and if necessary an additional DSD diagnosis. Anyone with male advantage needs to compete in the male category.
1) I box and know that there had been complaints about Imane Khelif for years. This was before the IBA tests and their involvement. Female boxers, coaches, and boxing organizations filed complaints about Khelif being a man ever since he started in the adult womens boxing circuit. Look at his fight with Brianda Cruz from a year ago. He almost massacred her, and he's walking into her punches without flinching and with his guard down. He's not afraid of Cruz and can withstand her punches. He's also holding back a lot. That's a red flag. 2) This was handled privately initially. The IBA tested twice and found Khelif was a biological man. Khelif was given the opportunity to retest at the IBA's expense. Khelif refused. Khelif could have appealed and did so initially and then dropped the appeal and so he was banned from the world championships. This was over a year go when these tests were done, so Khelif knew about his genetics at least in 2023. 3) Khelif applied for the Olympics anyhow despite the genetic tests and despite being banned from the World Championships. The IBA sent a letter with the test results to the medical team for the IOC a year ago to warn them about Khelif. This was not done publicly, but a private letter with the test results. The IOC didn't respond and allowed Khelif in. They said they only use passports to verify biological sex. 4) When Khelif boxed Carini and Carini didn't last in the ring because her nose was broken and she was bloody, people knew Khelif was a man. His build, the blows to her face, and blood within 46 seconds are red flags of abnormal strength. The IBA was then forced to do a press releae on their website saying they told the IOC a year ago, and Khelif knew a year ago as well. This was now a safety and dangerous game that the IOC and Khelif were playing. 5) The IOC president, Thomas Bach, did a press conference and disregarded the IBA and their results. The IOC said they don't do testing at all. They only look at the passport. The IBA was then forced to do a press conference in Paris because Khelif was getting ready to fight more women and potentially seriously injure or kill a woman. Even the VP for the World Boxing Organization came out and said Khelif and several others were biological men. 6) The IOC has done nothing (not one single test) since and allows Khelif and other biological men to compete in a woman' s boxing competition. Khelif and his team try to drum up sympathy and do interviews and bring more attention to their so-called "private" situation. If it's private, then why does Khelif do interviews and constantly post on social media about it? 7) Khelif dresses, walks,talks, and sits like a young adult man. Khelif literally wears men's suits, clothing, and jewelry. It's so blatant, and Khelif posts pics on his Instagram flaunting it. He doesn't care because the IOC isn't stopping him. This is essentially what happened. Everyone knew, including Khelif, and they are not going to stop until a woman is killed.
Same rules for all athletes. Passport sex is what they go by. In the old days , it was a genital test. On passport for Algeria , it goes by genital sex observed at birth. Same rules for all women boxers at the Olympics.
@@RC-qf3mp they weren't doing genital tests in the Olympics. They did a genetic test (cheek swab test) and they stopped doing it around 2016 claiming that it was discriminatory. This was despite over 90% of female athletes saying they still wanted genetic testing in the Olympics.
Athletes don't just 'turn up at the Olympics'! As soon as you get to to more than the regional level you're in the world of drug testing. If you reach the National/International level the testing gets more rigorous. There is no way after the IBA testing and ban that Khelif does not know exactly what condition 'she' has.
Absolutely ridiculous that the IOC uses the sex on ones passport as criterion, when in reality unambiguous biologically attested sex 'Female' should be the yardstick in question , namely for any professional sports.
They're just going along with the ideology. Trans-identified men get birth certificates and passports changed to F. So, if that's the IOC's criteria, then they can't be labeled as "phobic"
@@pegm5937 Correct, if you trace it back it goes to their change in policy in 2021, they had meetings to discuss these things, i would assume that those meetings were heavily influenced by progressives/gender theory. they messed up because they stop recognizing the IBA and had no other governing body that could take up the responsibility of gender eligibility policies....
Khelif could end this controversy immediately by allowing the IBA to release ALL of the results of her medical tests. The fact that she does not certainly raises concern. (Note Karyotype is just an initial SCREEN. But more tests would need to be done to demonstrate she did not go through a testosterone mediated puberty.)
Exactly! I find it very sus that Khelif isn't publishing those test results. He is embroiled in an international controversy regarding his gender, if he was so sure that he is a woman he should have been the first to publish it to prove himself. If you're refusing to publish it you're hiding something incriminating! He also dropped his appeal against the IBA disqualifying him. He realised he can't prove he has XX chromosomes. lol
Time to separate science from wokeness, and stop talking male/men and female/women, and instead adopt XX, XY and Intersex for three competitive categories. We can still respect personal preferences to identify as a man or woman regardless of what the DNA says.
The thing that never get's discussed in the debate is, "IS THIS EXPLOITABLE?" If a nation state, who has a largish population, tests large amounts of their population and directs those intersex people into their olympics programs they could likely exploit this for an advantage, therefore it should be banned.
Men aspiring to compete against women will always be more common in elite levels because the advantage maleness gives is so great. It's a numbers game.
This question was answered in the last 15 years since Semenya won gold in the 2009 worlds in 800m coming from "nowhere". Because it took over 10 years for World Athletics to ban/regulate DSD athlete about a dozen of them appeared over the years Of course this was hadly systematic "exploitation" but coaches in African countries where DSD conditions are more frequent and more importantly remain untreated/undiscovered longer obviously looked for such athletes to gain international prize money or medals The deplorable zenith was in the Rio Olympics 2016 when all 3 800m medals went to DSD xy "women" and the real beaten women stammered in tears during interviews because they could hardly speak openly against the unfairness as it had already been framed as discrimination and "racism" by some media.
It is . And it has happened to people. Communist Germany looked for dsd women and gave them hormones with no consent ( and no explanation as to what was done to them ). Some of them did manage to live out thire lives as men after thet but some ended up killing themselves. I think it's very important to remember thet no all man ( or athletes ) come from places where they have a choice if to compete at all . So yes it can and has been explained in very horrible ways and you are right . People should talk about it more . An athlete who finds out they are dsd and don't want to compete may be abet to do it if they from Europe but the same person would not have a choice if they are from China or Korea
This who wanted IK to continue to box women probably hasn’t taken a full on punch to the head. The gloves aren’t pillows- they are there to protect the puncher’s hands, NOT the recipient. Head gear only protect from scratches, the concussion is full on and repeated banging will hurt your head the next few days. In fact, before they had gloves for boxing fighters used to go for body shots more because if you punch the head repeatedly it’s easy to hurt the hands. So concussions are more dangerous w gloves. Hence, as much as I sympathize with IK on what she went through, she is FUNCTIONALLY a dude, and should only fight other dudes.
So, the policy is; lets be nice to men pretending to be women but nasty to real women. There is no way that those two boxers didn't know that they are male, even if they have lived all of their lives as women. Of course, they continue in the women's category because they know that they'll lose in the first round of the men's category.
Khelif doesn't live like a woman. Khelif dresses in men's clothes and mens suits. Khelif walks, talks and sits like a young adult man. There are pics on Instagram and on elbilad TV before the Olympics. I think it's suspicious.
Great and much needed conversation. Thank you. I wish we didn't had to discuss this topic at this day and age but here we are.. at a time where common sense doesn't seem quite that common at all.
@arnigeir1597 then publish the test results, nothing to hide is there? At this point denying his beating a woman and cheating is just making you all look sexist and stupid.
Huh? Common sense is that somebody born without a penis and without testicles is a GIRL, not a boy. This biologists is saying the sometimes a baby born without a penis and without testicles can really be a BOY. Um. No. That’s not a boy. I don’t care if there are ‘internal testes’ or gonad streaks or whatever. If you don’t have a penis and don’t have testicles, you are not a BOY. You’re a GIRL. Why do you disagree with that? Nonsense.
So if these boxers are found to be actually male, what about the actual female boxers who had their dreams dashed and their medals basically robbed from them along really with a whole host of acolades they wont be getting in effect probably redirecting their entire live's, i myself find this atrocity discusting, and i hope the olympics pays dearly. 16:42
No such thing as "DSD or Intersex". People begin to invent nomenclature to make conditions a separate entity. Male child can sometimes be born with bilateral undescended testes. The doctor notices the absence of the scrotum and testes and automatically writes "female" on the birth certificate. No doctor will bother to examine if the new born has a vagina. The child will be brought up by the parents as a female. This child has an XY chromosome and in every biological aspects of his development is of a male characteristics. This becomes very obvious when he approaches puberty, because at this time, his testes, although undescended, are functioning normally. This means a surge of testosterone. This "female" child will then show masculine characteristics. He can switch to being a male if he wants to, or continue with his belief that he is intersex and has to live with this "condition". But he is 100% male.
That... is what "a condition" is though? Something with a common cause and set of diagnostic criteria. So what you outlined is 5-ARD DSD, as opposed to CAIS which also results in undescended testes but does not result in masculinization since they don't respond to testosterone. These are caused by specific genetic mutations.
@@atticstattic Intersex is not outdated. It still is the medical term used. DSD is an umbrella term for hormonal and genetic conditions. It doesn't describe the actual condition. Oy.
You understood Khelif's medical condition very well and were able to explain it clearly, yet you do not accept the medical term under which this condition falls? Disorder of Sex Development is a medical term. We do need to invent nomenclature to classify and categorise newly discovered things especially in biology at large. DSD is just an umbrella term to regroup a number of conditions and syndromes relating to chromosome and hormonal abnormalities which lead to abnormal sex development.
@@benu_bird 'Intersex' doesn't describe _anything_ - that's why it isn't a valid scientific or medical term. DSD is a general category for the 40-something genetic conditions that are variations of the sex binary.
What we need to realise today is that we have genetically abnormal born kids, and instead of letting parents decide what they should be or become, the doctors should step in and make their families aware of the situation and give the option at an early stage! Education is part of the process, we can't control the world but we can create a platform that allows humanity to understand how this world is evoluting, changing and evolving around us so we can all start contributing instead of fighting
This wasn’t clear at all. It was dishonest. The problem exists for a reason - b/c there’s no simple answer. Bringing in a biologist to spout off about non-biological issues like ‘fairness’ is a red-herring. Biologists disagree among themselves on how to classify people with DSDs because different biological tests for sex yield divergent results. It’s not wrong to inspect the genitals to determine sex (phenotype test). It’s not wrong to look at a baby born without a penis and without testicles and to put ‘female’ on the birth certificate. Sure, the baby might have a defective Y chromosome. But the question is whether a female can have a defective Y chromosome. And nothing in the biology says that can’t be the case - and in fact, that’s exactly what people did for all of human history in classifying by sex at birth. This was a one-sided discussion filled with red-herrings and fast moves that go back and forth between speculative, controversial biological claims and totally arbitrary non-biological policy speculations on ‘fairness’. It was nonsense and amateurish.
@@RC-qf3mp It's only complicated if people choose feelings over facts. If you have a Y chromosome you are a man; without the Y you don't have male level testosterone, denser muscles, and massive upper body strength compared to XX. And it's the Y that gives you male puberty.
@@desertquill1939 you must be confusing me for a trans ideologist. I am nothing of the sort. My argument is based on objective fact and biology. The problem is biology has limits and all sciences have gray-areas in classification at times, esp for anomalies. Intersex conditions are anomalous and do not fit neatly in a biological framework geared towards understanding normal sexual reproduction. People with intersex conditions, however, are largely infertile/sterile. The problem is simple. There are multiple tests for determining sex. Phenotype and genotype . Phenotype is what has been used for 99.99% of human history - baby is born, look between the legs, if you see a penis and testicles, it’s a male. Otherwise, female. A genotype test looks at chromosomes. Chromosomes, however, can be defective. And so even though it’s clear that ALL healthy fetuses with normal XY chromosomes become males and develop male genitalia, it is not the case that all people with Y chromosomes have healthy Y chromosomes. Also, some have XXY and XXXY or XXXXY. Funky things can happen with the Y, such that the person doesn’t develop male genitalia and so is not a male. What do you call a baby born without a penis and without testicles? That’s right - a girl. And some girls have defective Y chromosomes. Some even have internal testes. But if you got a vagina, no penis and no testicles, you can still be a girl with your internal tests, just not a typical female, but a female nonetheless. And intersex people have intersex puberties. Each puberty is its own thing belonging to a specific individual. Ultimately, it would be best to just call intersex people ‘intersex’ and neither totally or typically male nor female. But since society forces us to lump them into one category or another, it makes the most sense to lump them with and as female, given the lack of male genitalia and closer phenotype to typical females. No one test settles the issue. If it did, we’d all just use the test and there’d be no problem. But sex for intersex people is in a gray area of reality and it’s just our desire to draw lines that creates artificial distinctions and controversy. Ultimately, no ONE test determines the sex of intersex people because multiple tests give divergent results. That’s how and why we have this problem in sports. But people immediately want to throw in their two cents on ‘fairness’ or testosterone or ‘male puberty’, all of which are irrelevant to the question of whether the athlete in question is male or female. If male, they don’t belong in female sports. If female, then ‘fairness’ or testosterone levels don’t matter - for the same reason genetic fairness and testosterone don’t matter in men’s basketball. This topic stokes outrage, and outrage rarely leads to logical thinking. As such, i don’t expect rational responses to my analysis.
@@desertquill1939 no, my feelings have nothing to do with it. I care about objective facts , like the fact that a baby born without a penis and without testicles cannot be male. And if not male, then female.
@@RC-qf3mp Please look up legitimate news articles. Khelif has internal male organs. You don't go through male puberty without testes. Look up Caster Semenya, who has the same condition and admits to having internal testes. After years of stealing medals from women he was finally banned a few years ago. Khelif has a Y chromosome and therefore is a male. Women's sports are not a catchall for male genetic abnormalities. And women shouldn't have to roll over and put these men ahead of fair play and common sense just to be "nice."
It’s a very sad situation as they would both have thought they were female right up to the tests in all probability. Testing used to be done as a matter of course for all athletes that wanted to compete in women’s sports.
What makes somebody a female? Isn’t somebody born without a penis and without testicles a female? Genotype testing can show if you have Y chromosomes or not - but so what? Who said chromosomes are what make somebody male or female? That’s exactly what the dispute is about. People have been classifying newborn babies as male and female since forever, and they did it without genetic testing. It’s not that complicated. It’s an arbitrary bias to prioritize one test (genotype) over another (genital inspection, phenotype). The reason why this controversy exists in sports is that the tests can yield divergent results for people with DSDs and the science doesn’t compel any one test. It’s ARBITRARY.
@@RC-qf3mp You're right. Chromosomes alone don't make you male or female. There are various conditions ranging from specific mutations to SRY translocation that can "subvert" one's expected sexual development. But it is in no way "arbitrary" to require genetic testing. Although observing someone's phenotype is a reasonable proxy for genetic sex in the majority of cases, you cannot determine whether someone has an unfair performance advantage by looking at them. Genomic testing would indeed put this to bed.
Your chromosomes and gametes determine your sex. Children that go through male puberty have a significant advantage over those who do not. Genitalia can be misleading, especially in cases of DSDs. Trans people can also opt to have cosmetic surgery on their genitalia which means genitalia is not a valid determination of sex @@RC-qf3mp
@@RC-qf3mp biological scientists determines it. People like Richard Dawkins have real credibility so let’s go with them. There are variations within humans that make us no less human…for example 6 toes vs 5 still makes you a human. A Y chromosome but with a variation still makes you a male.
@@RC-qf3mp Chromosomes ARE what makes a person male or female. Gential inspection is not a test, it's an observation. And in >0,1% of the population, that observation can be false. There are no 'divergent results' of 'different tests' here. You keep repeating the same false statement - it would be really useful if you consulted a biology book.
IOC (and other organisations not valuing th safety and fairness concerns) want’s to appear inclusive. It’ astounding the HBT… -movement have scared so many presumably ”ordinary” people in boards into fighting their fight.
SRY trigger and effect is what we are talking about. If she has SRY, then we can safely say from looking at her that she has undergone male viralisation. Identify the y chromosome or at least SRY, and if it's there, she is a male. If she had the SRY but no viralisation then I don't think it matters.
One look at Khelif and it is completely obvious that their body has been masculininsed by testosterone. It is literally immediately obvious to the eye.
The SRY is involved in male genitalia development....it should prevent the development of female genitalia. Occasionally this misfires..... However If the individual is XY puberty will further masculinize them.
Excellent - measured, reasoned and sympathetic, but factual. Quite extraordinary that the biological passport (standard for WADA's doping control) of an athlete could not include something as fundamental as sex. That the bio passport might be inaccurate about such a thing suggests the frailties of that system. The IOC have become a clown-show: that they can seriously promote male vs female boxing with a straight face is so indicative of the weird alt-truth world we now live in.
Great interview! Dr Emma Hilton has certainly done the rounds on this issue in the last few weeks. Perhaps now the alternative media could focus on the "where now?" angle... the IOC will not rescind the medals won by Imane Khelif or Lin Yu-Ting, nor will they compensate in any way the female boxers who lost. The 3 biological women who finished 4th-5th-6th behind 3 DSD athletes in the Rio 800m women's race have never been acknowledged. So, as outrageous what happened at the Paris Olympics is, the real question is how to rectify this situation so that it never happens again... which starts with an uncompromised amateur world boxing federation which would have guidelines for protecting the women's category from trans & intersex athletes in-line with those already in place for athletics, swimming, weightlifting, etc.
they are mne. why we even discuss this ı don't know. first of all kahail is huge bigger than any other female boxer.even men do not fight with someone bigger and stronger than themselves at professional boxing.
Just be prepared for trans to be the medal winners rather than unmodified women/girls. Studies show they are stronger than nonmodified women. The ruin of women’s sports.
The issue isn’t ‘trans’ but intersex. Trans is when the test for being a woman is gender identity (subjective self-identification). Intersex is a biological issue not subject to self-identification, but is an objective biological condition. The issue with some intersex athletes is that there is no one, clearly criteria for determining who is male or female among the intersex. Chromosomal tests, hormonal tests and genital inspection tests can yield divergent results. Different sports organizations can have different tests, so an athlete who counts as ‘female’ in one organization could be disqualified as ‘not female’ in another.
@@RC-qf3mp Genomic testing trumps genital inspection and is far less degrading, full stop. Your proposed standard of genital inspection would allow any SRS transwoman to compete in female divisions, so yes, trans is definitely part of the broader discussion the moment you join the conversation.
@@Viral9 no, genital inspection can also determine whether a penis and testicles were ever developed and then later removed. Scars, etc. I’m not opposed to both genital inspection AND a cheek swab for chromosomes, but the primary criterion for being female is the lack of ever having developed a penis and testicles. Chromosome tests aren’t more accurate at determining sex. Look at the history of chromosomal sex-testing and learn why it was abandoned by sports organizations. Also, some new genetic mutation can arrive that is not already accounted for in the testing. The core problem here is incommensurability - competing standards, and competing tests according to those competing standards. The clearest standard throughout human history and law for determining sex is genital inspection. Even newborn baboons and chimps are passed around by their mother so that the rest of the community can inspect the genitals. The mother turns the baby so the legs are spread open and shows everybody if it’s a male or female baby chimp or baboon.
@@RC-qf3mp I'm not advocating for chromosomal testing. I'm advocating for genomic testing. It's cheaper and faster than ever, a full workup with every mutation or recessive condition easily documented. Just compare against the genes known to cause any DSDs that can result in performance benefits. If someone has Swyer syndrome there's obviously no need for further testing. They're good to compete. But 5-ARD would be a completely different story. And if a new DSD is discovered then it can be found with zero additional work. Your "looks good to me" approach is woefully lacking because _you still refuse to acknowledge why the female division exists_
@@Viral9 female division exists for inclusion reasons, for money, for entertainment, etc. yes, the world would be fine without a women’s division and we’d find out who is the best in the world at various sports. Anybody who wants to watch high quality soccer is better off watching 15 year old boys or 50 year old men than the very best women. As for genomic testing… I’m happy with any and all testing. But only the body is sexed, not the genes. Genes are like software programs that give instructions , the output is the body, the effect. Reasonable people can disagree on how to categorize DSDs by sex. There’s gray area and it’s arbitrary which standard is used when the biology doesn’t compel any one standard. Sports aren’t fair genetically or financially. And never have been. Just watch men’s basketball . We evolved to play close attention to each others genitals and to consider whether we can mate with another. That’s the evolutionary argument for genital inspection. We developed sexed bodies for sexual reproduction, regardless of whether we want to do it or not. At a minimum, we can recognize sex in other people. In identifying a woman with a DSD and internal testes as being female, I’m not making a mistake in identifying her chromosomes, I’m not attempting to identify chromosomes because I recognize the human body (phenotype) as constitutive of her sex.
She’s not an ‘expert’ on policy. She’s mainly speaking as a political advocate, not a biologist. quillette should’ve had a biologist with an opposing point of view for a real debate. Instead, we got appeal to emotion and vague talk of ‘fairness’ without getting into the crux of the matter.
I think there are 2 distinct issues at play in this case. Firstly its DSD and its affect on people who have these issues. The resultant levels of testosterone during pubity - and if it could be used as 'pubity doping' if recognised by trainers at that stage... testosterone is literally the reason trans women are excluded from many sports, its the same argument... Then also that athletes may have genetic ananolamies (born-with advantages) which make them better at doing certain things over others (along with dedication and traing). But at which point do these anomalies result in an unfair advantage over other athletes...
The difference that male testosterone gives to an XY chromosome person is enormous when compared to a female XX. The reason Men and Women are separated in Sport is because of the huge advantage that the male XY chromosome gives to men.
When he's a MALE that's when. A micro penis is the usual reason in developing countries they sometimes decide the child is a girl. I assume it was the parents who wrongly decided to register him as a girl. I doubt any medics were even involved where he was born.
According to Dr. Hilton, the IOC's position is that the distinction between males and females is not based on biological differences, but rather on gender identity. This means that an individual's gender identity determines whether they are considered female, not their biological distinctions between male and females which would put females at risk.
@@davefoss6201 Yes. But this has very little to do with my comment. In fact my comment kinda says the same thing. The IOC is 'looks at birth as girl is girl'... But as we can deduce as with their cases its not that straightforward. My comment is if looks girl but goes through male pubity then its a problem for 'natural' women who went through female pubity. Its straight physiological. Transwomen are banned for exactly the same thing. Not because they 'feel' female but because they went through male pubity.
Plenty feminists spoke out. Some of whom are now looking at a lawsuit. It's a disgusting state of affairs when all we want is fairness and equality and get death threats, told to shut up and verbally abused. Women's rights are being sidelined by the trans cult
That's only bc there's no data being released to use as solid proof. If the medical record said "undescended testicles, no ovaries, no uterus, underdeveloped penis"- we would have proof to stand on with voice!
From time-to-time I've been going through the adult photos of Khelif and the Taiwanese boxer Lin and comparing them with photos of the unambiguous women boxers in the Women's Welterweight category. One of the things that stands out to me is the muscle to fat ratio difference between Khelif, Lin and the women boxers. Khelif and Lin are pure muscle and bone, very lean and no detectable breast tissue. The other female boxers do have normal, healthy fat distribution and breasts making their bodies more rounded. The facial features and hand structure of both Khelif and Lin are more consistent with maleness too. When Angela Carini said "I have never been hit so hard in my life" and the bout was over in 46 seconds that really says it all for what's happening in women's sports. As for the IOC's reliance on someone's passport as a way to categorize athletes, they should know that boxers hit each others bodies, not their passports. Thank you Dr. Hilton for presenting factual information and standing up for female athletes.
Hilton did nothing of the sort. She rambled on about her policy opinions but didn’t get to the core issues. She’s not standing up for females - we need to know who females are. Don’t you think somebody born with a vagina and no penis is a female? Hilton doesn’t!
I'm not sure that we can assume that Khelif can punch 2.5x harder than a non-DSD woman, given that she has been beaten by women 9 times out of 40 fights.
Those losses are when Khelif was younger and less experience. I box and that's not atypical. A year or 2 can make a huge difference in boxing especially if you're talking about someone become a fully grown adult man.
Imane knows he is male by now. He should have done the right thing by not going to the Olympics. Imane signed the IBA paperwork, as did the other male boxer, acknowledging the results. They were given the opportunity to contest the results and they didn’t. THAT should speak volumes.
But nobody have seen the test results, and the organisation who done the test are known to be corrupt . plus they don't want to show the test result saying it is confidential. it s not confidential now. HOW COULD YOU START THIS DEBAT WITHOUT SEEING THE RESULTS TEST, INCREDIBLE
The medical ethics board forbids disclosing medical test results without the permission of the individual. Check HIPA laws. Semenya’ s case was passed on by irresponsible doctors to the media in Berlin at the time. Many countries are allowing people to determine their own gender. Cases of r**pe in female prisons by biological male inmates have been reported in Scotland and parts of US.
I Khelif was shown the results both times, IBA showed the document with Khelif’s signature at a press conference, they had to cover the actual DNA result in compliance with international law. He was told he could appeal. He started the appeal, then dropped it. This was all revealed at the IBA press conference.
The coaches said Khelifs chromosomes changed a bit in the mountains where Khelif lives with family. At time 3:30 ua-cam.com/video/_JYjYcZ5jS8/v-deo.htmlsi=mR8KBnpEJZOTgPOq
Strange opening question. What are "biological" purposes? Using the qualification "biological" confirms there are sexes which aren't biological. Gender and sex are the same thing. Gender is not a subjective condition, it is an objective fact.
Sex is objective biological reality. Gender is a person’s psychological perception of their own sex and whether or not their perception matches the biological reality. So, not the same thing.
the biological sex is defined by the XY sex-determination system and influences the hormons, heart, lungs, muscles, … and is objective through testing. the subjective psychological, sociological, taxical, … sex/gender can change. in germany you can change your gender every year.
Completely wrong way round. Biology is objective (it's just not as simple as being always binary in terms of sex). Gender is not. That's much more subjective, and even at an individual level. What is, of course, binary is whether an XY chromosome pair is present. Up until the Sydney Olympics that was exactly the categorisation used by the IOC for competing in male and female events. The IAAF's approach is that those with the developmental disorder mentioned here must take testosterone-lowering drugs in order to compete in the female categories. There is no simple answer to this sort of dilemma that is going to be agreeable to everybody. So, in this case, do you go with the interests of the vast majority (that is those women who are XX) or with the much smaller number who have the XY developmental disorder. If you do allow for the latter, do you try and "level the playing field" somewhat with It is notable that some sports like boxing have weight categories for that very purpose. Even some rowing events have limited weight categories. In disabled sport, there's a complex system of categorisation. Of course we could get rid of the dilemma by simply not having "male" and "female" categories of sport and simply have "XX" and "XY" categories. However, I don't see the XX 100 metres event being a catchy name.
Gender was once just a synonym for sex, but over time this situation gradually changed so that gender began to be more 'malleable' in its usage. By the 1900s the words sex and gender were no longer understood to be identical in meaning. The word gender is now commonly undertood to be a 'social construct', describing the social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Words are slippery things . . .
Saying that language, some particular term is stigmatizing is only so from the point of view of the ones who feel persecuted. Even when objectively, linguistically there is nothing inherently stigmatizing, denigrating or bigoted in it. It's a plain and simple term to denote, as briefly, and as clearly as can, the meaning of it, what it refers to. What hell is stigmatizing in "inter" and "sex" put together? Nothing! Much like there is nothing inherently invalidating in saying 'there are two genders'. Aside from the very few actually bigoted people of that minority, no one else means any insult or invalidation by stating a biological fact. It doesn't mean it automatically excludes e.g.: people with gender dysphoria or gender-fluidity. There are still two genders, and then there are the people who psychologically feel like they belong to the other, both or neither. If there weren't any genders, and it was nothing but a social construct, as they keep saying, then terms like "gender-fluid" and "non-binary" would also be useless and pointless, since there would be nothing to be 'fluid between' or be 'neither' of, defeating their own, preferred terminology, which they refuse to admit or even realize. The main reason they feel stigmatized by certain terms or certain statements is because they keep telling themselves and one another that they should feel attacked, even when it's not intended. And most of the time, by most of society, it isn't intended. Only by a minority. But, because of the online culture war and how it is amplified and focus is given to vitriolic elements, they make it seem like the real bigots represent a far larger portion of the populace than they actually do. And it also makes it seem like the unhinged elements on the so called progressive side pushing the acceptance of a movement-turned-ideology are a far larger than they actually are. It gives both of their fringes more voice, more influence, enough that they hijack the culture and the conversation, and even affect politics and policies, when they are both still just an obnoxious and unhinged minority successfully bullying the sane majority into silence and submission.
Don't the individual international sporting bodies largely determine the rules for their respective sport and who is allowed to participate, even in the Olympics? And many of them have ruled that transwomen are not allowed to compete for the most part? That is not even touched on in this conversation.
You should mention inguianal canal function , the testis ligament did not bring the testis down form back of lower abdomen through inguianal canal to the scrotum , thus testis remained undesended
There is something that needs to be repeated over and over again, in face of activist claims: Access to organized sport is not a question of human rights. Access to organized sport is a privilege gained by complying with the rules. And the rules must ensure fair competition. When someone in a debate about sport categories brings up human rights, shut them down immediately and return to the topic.
You’re right, but the main ‘activist’ here is Hilton. She’s literally part of an advocacy group on this topic, and so her ‘biology’ analysis is thoroughly tainted and unobjective. There wasn’t even a debate with a biologist with an opposing view in this video. Shame on Quillette for not following basic standards of rationality. The ‘human right’ issue is that all women are allowed to play in women’s sports. Is Khelif a woman? What’s a woman? An adult human female. And what’s a female? In humans, you look between the legs when a baby is born and it’s apparent who is male or female. And Khelif was observed to be a female at birth. It’s just that simple. why can’t Hilton provide fair and balanced analysis? B/c she’s a biased political advocate.
@@RC-qf3mp You are off-topic under my comment, but ok. There are no "opposing view" biologists. There is absolutely NO debate about what sex means in biology. Sex is binary and 100% understood. And no, sex is not accurately determined by looking between the legs of a baby. It's a good first approximation, but potentially inaccurate due to well-known genetic disorders. Sex is defined by the type of gamete the individual has potential to produce - males small motile gametes, females big immotile gametes. Khelif seems to have a functional SRY gene, thus testes, thus a potential to produce sperm, thus it's a male. The objective reality does not give a F what a doctor in Algeria wrote in his birth certificate. And sport regulation should also only care about objective reality. This is a trivial ethical decision, and if the world was not full of blithering idiots brainwashed by postmodern extremism, there would have never been ANY discussion about this. Women's sport is for women, Khelif is male, end of story.
They manage to have different categories for para-olympics for different types of abilities. Surely they can figure out a fair playing field for the rest of us too. We all want a chance to play, and player or spectator we all want a fair competition, and it’s clearly not fair at the moment.
What if, hear me out, she has a DSD as a woman? Meaning she is female, with a dsd that causing higher production of testosterone? These disorders are essentially a form of hermaproditism. The questions is, where should the lines be drawn about this; and is an intersex/trans division viable?
@@kaleidoscopesthirdeyevizions I wish this was what was discussed, instead of people pretending she is a man or that she doesn't have a condition. Its become a dishonest discourse, instead of a discussion about the facts of the matter. Thank you for being reasonable and polite.
@@fettbub92 yeah 💯 I honestly think it woke me up to how many people don't even know there are intersex people. I honestly doubt this boxer even ever got told her truth so yeah it's difficult to have a real discussion on some of this because people will think what they want to .
Certainly nobody could have imagined that after decades of encouraging and mandating that girls be allowed to compete against boys in sports and boys open up their spaces to both sexes that somehow we would end up in this situation. I mean that is what we must tell ourselves, right?
They would be male. The presence of the Y chromosome (more specifically, the SRY gene) results in the formation of testes which pushes a fetus down a male developmental pathway (when other genetic disorders are not present). Feel free to review "Rare Disorder of Sexual Differentiation with a Mosaic 46,XX/47,XXY in a Klinefelter Syndrome Individual" which was a teen boy karyotyped as 33% 47,XXY, 67% 46,XX. But you have indeed presented an exceptionally rare scenario. Less than 0.5% of the population have chromosomal DSDs, and the majority of them can be confidently assigned as male or female at birth, at least by the western medicine. But we also screen for chromosomal abnormalities during pregnancy, so we're more likely to discover them.
Renée Richards 1976 NY Supreme Court ruled in her favor to compete in the US Open with Women, post op. It was a landmark case. She also coached Martina. Stella Walsh I can go one and on and on
This is a case of intersex! Algeria will turn the blind eye to it! Purely for cultural and tribal reasons.... I am sure Khalifa is living in a confusion as we speak.... she or he can only obey the rules and act accordingly.... that's why I have never blamed this individual..... I just hope one day he or she will come out of that dark closet and show the world who they really are!
being lesbian or gay has noting to do with this issue - it's a sexual orientation, not a 'gender identity' or a DSD. We just need a competition category for males who don't want to compete in the male category (whether transwomen or male-DSD)... And we need to stop throwing L&G under the TQ*-bus!
"I think we have to think about" said from a "science lady" after having to answer the question "Is this a male or a female" just ended up the whole video for me. "Thinking" had to be done like 10 to 15 years ago. Now its there and "thinking" will not fix any damage done by it. Stop playing with your cats, and start playing with your brains. Who wants the "change" and why do they want it to happen. Background checks, psycho tests, prolonged physical tests. "Why dont you like your body" is a good question! 'How do you feel about the "testosterone" and about the "estrogen" '. The nature was the only unwritten law that couldnt be falsified. It was always either "this" or "that", untill somebody rushed in in the "temple of knowledge" without having the said knowledge and started "thinking" about stuff (like somebody on LSD). The worst part of all this is: The decision making individuals are mostly from the "estrogen" origin, that do vote against themselves and their kind because "thinking" isnt their power somehow, even when all they do 24/7 is "thinking". Has everybody already lost their mind, or was it done medically.
One thing that remains unexplained is Rationality Rules' claim about the agencies used by IBA to conduct the tests on Khelif and others (see minute mark 8:36 in ua-cam.com/video/sWv7RQaLIxk/v-deo.htmlsi=NYeF6ZEG0UvVrovI&t=516) "As for why precisely the IBA disqualified Imane, it goes from vague to vaguer. One official said that it was due to her failing a chromosome test, while another indicated elevated testosterone. And yet investigations into the facility who supposedly conducted the test revealed that they don't do either of these tests." It's not clear where Rationality Rules is getting that claim.
It's coming from nowhere. I've heard all sorts of ridiculous claims now which supposedly disprove the results, such as gotchas like, "They said the tests were done in WADA labs, but WADA doesn't have labs." Correct. Labs obtain WADA accreditation. It was an accredited lab. Similarly, making assumptions about the specific test that was performed, or claiming that the lab in question could not have possibly performed one specific test, when there are multiple ways of screening for whether someone is male or female (forensic medicine has refined multiple techniques) is just silly.
Please show me the proof that she went through abnormal bodily changes at puberty. Just sounds like a lot of speculation to me. The range of human diversity is quite staggering when its looked at carefully. We should perhaps not so easily make judgments as is apparently being done here.
Irrelevant to whether Khelif was born without a penis. If so, she’s female by the standards of Algeria and all places throughout all of human history. So had ‘female’ on her birth certificate and got a ‘female’ passport. If she has XY5ard, so be it - she’s a female with XY5ard. “But, but…my textbook says only males get XY5ard!!” Yeah, well, your textbook can arbitrarily classify DSDs as it pleases. Human civilization and law are clear - born without a penis = female. It’s not a wrong standard, just a different one from your textbook. Your book isn’t an authoritative bible. It’s just a book. You are caught up in circular reasoning and blind faith to a religious authority.
Talking about gender, people personal preference about sex, LGBT and so, I respect them, dinner, playing tennis and some general social activities are okay. However, for sports, for fairness, people with different situations shall participate sports differently. This is not discrimination. You will not agree a high school athlete to compete with a primary one.
nah bro f them. dont even talk to them. keep away from them and keep away from them ur children. its beter to raise a gangster instead of raise a gay or trans child!word!
@@akashajones6079 It's 2024. Are you saying that this person can't still be identified at all? Would that mean there's no way or they're really just keeping secrets?
Are there any xx athletes that are mistaken at birth to be male? Or are all these disorders always males, or those having a y chromazone, that appear at least initially female?
Realistically, no. Since the observation of a penis and testes are how we "assign" sex, and the SRY gene must be present for the formation of testes, it generally doesn't go the other way.
This is so irresponsible on an academic's behalf. Even though she said "what Kheliff PROBABLY has..." everybody is going to run with it as if it's the case. She won gold this time, but she isn't an unstoppable beating machine and it has been disproven that she has a congenital condition, meaning she is a standard biological woman. Thank god the government of Algeria didn't take the accusations seriously or she could be in jail right now or worse.
I box and I'll explain. A lot of those losses that Imane Khelif had occurred when Khelif as younger and a less experienced boxer. Yes, a year or 2 of training can make a difference in the ability of a boxer. Also, becoming a fully grown adult male also makes a difference in a few years. What people don't understand is that in international boxing, you win by making contact with your opponent. It's not a fight like you would see in US boxing. Khelif is now a fully grown adult man with more experience, so hence more wins. Also, technically, Khelif is not a good boxer. There are better biological women boxers who have way better techniques thank Khelif. But because Khelif is allegedly a biological man, Khelif has clear advantages like brute strength, longer limbs and reach to hit his opponent, and larger longer lungs for more air and better endurance. I watched some the fights and Khelif does is hit a woman a few good times in the face and body and she's wounded because his punches are 2.6 times stronger than an adult woman. The woman is then struggling at that point because she's injured. So then Khelic can start mauling her with punches at that point. When Khelif gets hit by women, he's not flinching or even affected by their blows so Khekif s not going to get worn down. The other tactic I've seen Khelif use is basically chasing the woman around the ring and mauling her with wild and strong punches. Because Khelif has better endurance and much stronger punches than his female opponents, Khelif can wear his female opponents out quicker. If Khelif was in adult men's boxing, they would lose badly because those boxers have boxing skills and strength. But it's easy for Khelif to win on the adult women's circuit as a fully grown adult man because they got male strength and endurance on his side. Khelif doesn't really need good boxing techniques if they can injure women early on in the match with a few good punches; or just wear a woman out with better endurance.
I had finally accepted that Khalif is an XY woman. Born female but with a Y that pops up later (Disorders in S*x Development or DSD). But what if we are all wrong and she is totally female? What evidence Dr. Emma Hilton has, to say Khalif is not a woman? Also, I draw the line somewhere. For me it is not so much the pair of chromosomes that does it, but the high levels of testosterone. XY chromosomes do not always guarantee strong muscular build or high levels of testosterone. So all of this is rather confusing.
With respect, just trust your own eyes and common sense. XX can't create a body like that. Only the Y creates the possibility for male puberty. Bottom line is Khelif has an unfair advantage because of his condition.
@@desertquill1939 one problem is that there’s no biological consensus on what distinguishes males from females when it comes to anomalous cases. It’s crystal clear each of us had a male and female parent. But for the rest of us who are not and will never be parents, and lack the capacity, the parent-model of classification does no good, and the gamete model derived from the parent model does no good. Science is poor at classifying anomalous cases, and this is one such instance - people with DSDs that render them problematic to traditional classificatory schemes. Specifically, biology can distinguish human sex by chromosome type, gonad type, gamete type, hormone levels/types, and phenotype (morphology). For almost all people, the male versions of chromosomes, gonad, gamete, etc., follows a clear pattern, as does the female sex class. But for some people with DSDs, there can be a mix among these dimensions. At that point, it becomes increasingly arbitrary whether to call such a person male or female, because either classification can be used, depending on how much weight is given to the various factors. ‘Arbitrary’ here does not mean random, or dumb, or not fact-based - the point is that there is no particular fact or set of facts COMPELLING one and only one standard. And that’s what’s happening here - at the extreme cases, sex classfication for at least some people with DSDs is completely arbitrary, not compelling by the science to be one way or another (not necessarily male or female). This is very disturbing for people with faith in God or faith in crystal clarity of science. The fact is that nature has gray area and this isn’t a defect of our science, it’s just a limit of what Nature lets us do.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"Someone with a DSD cannot help the way they were born but they can choose not to cheat; they can choose not to take medals from women; they can choose not to cause injury." -- Suzanne Moore, Columnist, The Times
"How do we balance..." As a former high school and collegiate basketball player, this attitude irks me. There is no way to create "balance" when it comes to having males compete against women in any organized sports. The claim of "balance", "fairness", "compassion", "kindness" are uniformly used to diminish the importance and sovereignty of women only sports.
Exactly. Thank you.
I'm a coach and this is what I keep trying to say. Society doesn't care about the burden it constantly imposes on women so that men are not inconvenienced in the slightest. We have to bend over backwards to humbly request some fairness and safety for women and I, for one, am tired of it. "Rights are not like pie men sneer as they go in for another serving." Sometimes, there can be no middle ground and this is one of them.
@@senryu93 Yes, enough is enough. Even if we don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak, we all need to make the minimal effort to contact our representatives and let them know violating women's rights to appease men is unacceptable. And it's not just about sports it's about women's spaces as well.
Who are Khalif's female sparing partners that have been withrown by their coches because it was dangerous? Can we check that statement?
@@desertcat4193jfc...are women capable of making EVERYTHING about themselves? Even for 1 second? This batshit craziness is a DIRECT result of feminism and it's nonsense
The IOC has a poor record on women's rights. Read Unfair Play by Sharron Davies for more info
Is this going to happen at every Olympics. I real feel for her. She was born a girl. I have seen photos of her has a little girl. I don't trust IOC. JK needs suing. She trolls trans kids and their mums and dads. JK shows hate to trans people and it has got worse in the past few years. I know she is not Imane is not trans. She is a good and brave person.
@@maryskelcher8979
Good book
When I saw Khelif's coach put her on his shoulders, I immediately thought that the coach knows that Khelif is a male. It's extremely unlikely that a Moslem man would ever do that with a Moslem woman, especially a woman who is not a spouse or a sibling, and they come from a very conservative Muslim country. The coach knows Khelif is a male.
What a really good point.
I don’t think she a male, she is just hermaphrodite, since Intersex people have various forms of genetical development. Anyhow the issue is that everyone predicted she was going to win due to having a male upper body, and they were right, nobody even knows if she is a good fighter or not. She just hits harder and is taller
First of, Muslim countries are not all the same in regards to these customs, and second, why would you expect the most conservative behavior from the Women's boxing team?
I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, so here goes. From what I understand 97% of Algeria's population identify as Sunni Muslim. Sunni Muslim societies only recognise 2 sexes, you are either a male or a female and nothing in between. If Muslims believe this Khelif person does not have any exterior male sex organs, then they also believe he must be a female.
@@ChristianDoretti Khalif definitely is intersex. Dr. Hilton highly suspectsthat khalif most likely has the same DSD intersex condition as Caster Semenya which is 5 alpha reductase deficiency, which affects only males. During puberty they will develop as male and will see growth in their penis due to their high testosterone levels. Khalif has a male body and it was already proven Khalif was producing male level hormones.
Here some specific statistics from Helen Joyce’s book Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality:
“The average adult man has 41 percent more non-fat body mass (blood, bones, muscles and so on) than the average woman, 50 percent more muscle mass in his legs and 75 percent more in his arms. His legs are 65 percent stronger, and his upper body is 90 percent stronger. The overwhelming upper-body advantage is nowhere near accounted for by differences in size - as can be seen in weightlifting competitions, where competitors are banded by weight, and the male world champion in each category lifts around 30 percent more than the female one.”
And that’s the difference between AVERAGE men and women. Among high performance individuals, the difference is even wider as men can gain more muscle mass than women over time, their strength and speed caps being higher.
It is 2024 and we need medical scientist to explain to us that men boxing against women is not fair.
It's like we're mentally devolving.. Sometimes, I think that people avoid common sense these days because they feel like it might limit them.
But women want equality - oh wait, not when it does not benefit them advantage women!
Post-Rationalism
The Olympics did use the chromosome Y mouth swab test. Now they act as though they have to use a more invasive test to determine Y.
It’s all hoodwinking for discourse.
I won’t watch Olympics and haven’t for years due to the corruption in the Olympics.
The thing is, there is actually nothing inherently unfair about males competing against females. What is unfair is a male competing in a category designed to exclude males. Fairness does not (and cannot) determine why and how the categories are defined. Rather, fairness comes into play once the rules are decided. This is something most people seem not to understand. Even this interviewee doesn't appear to fully understand this, or at least is not doing a great job of conveying it.
Dr Emma Hilton is just fantastic.
Dr Hilton based her opinion on kalif being male because the Russian oligarch run suspended IBF said kalif indirectly alluded to kalif being xy and some who spared with kalif said they thought kalif had male punching power.
Hilton failed to mention that members of the IBF held a press conference where they politicized the situation acting extremely unprofessional making many of accusations about the west and wokeness and refused to give the test results. I though she claims to be scientific based in her judgments.
Thanks! This was very well and educationally explained❤❤❤❤❤. If you have gone through male puberty, you have nothing to do in women's sports. nothing at all!
What’s ’male puberty’? Puberty is just a process all people go through if they live long enough. The question isn’t what kind of puberty did somebody go through, but whether the person going through the process is male or female. And how is that determined? Traditionally, at birth via genital inspection. And what do you call a baby born without a penis and without testicles? A girl. And if the girl goes through puberty, that’s female puberty. Sure, you can also use a genotype test - and for 99.9% of people with a Y chromosome, the resulting fetus will have a penis and testicles. But if the Y chromosome is defective, you won’t necessarily get a baby born with a penis and testicles. So what do you call that baby? A girl - a girl with a DSD. See, the biology doesn’t compel one answer to the question -what is a woman. Different tests can be used and different interpretations of those tests can be given. Science isn’t well suited for classifying anomalies, and DSDs are anomalous. Like determining if Pluto is a planet or not - scientists disagree b/c they have different criteria. So you’re right - somebody who goes through ‘male puberty’ shouldn’t compete in female sports. But what’s a ‘male’? If khelif is female, she had a female puberty. And whether she’s female or not, depends on which biological criteria are used. So we’re back to square one and ‘puberty’ has nothing to do with it. The biologists fooled you and you didn’t catch the fast-move she made. She went on and on about policy considerations that are totally outside biology. You might as well get my grandmother to rabble on about policy. It’s irrelevant to biology and the core issue of - what is a woman?
@@RC-qf3mp A woman is an adult human female. Every person with a DSD is also either male or female just like everyone else, and most importantly, claims of being "trans" have nothing to do with DSDs. Khelif is male. What sex one is, determines which corresponding puberty one goes through genius. Males are stronger than females PRIOR to puberty as well.
@@RC-qf3mp Did you listen to anything Dr Emma Hilton said? If so, I don't think you understood. You are a zealot in denial of reality. Why? Why don't you stand up for real women against this glorified abuse?
@@RC-qf3mp 😂😂😂😂😂
@@RC-qf3mp If the chromosome shows XY. then the child is XY, Male. with a disorder of sexual development.. They are still MALE. 🙄
Khelif and the other boxer were tested by two officially recognised labs as to whether they qualified as female. They failed both tests. AND THEY ACCEPTED THE RESULTS!
seriously, the two boxers knew in 2022 of the tests. They did know. I would also think that in puberty when they didn't get a period and grew the male body something would have clicked that something was not as it should be. They were given the results and they did crash the party. The coaches tried for the past year to get the testosterone level down. This be nice is not being nice to all the other women athletes as well as every woman in the world. I am done giving these people the benefit of the doubt and the kindness they don't deserve.
They had the tests done twice - they also did not dispute the tests (though the one did outside the dispute period for the secod test).
The question isn’t whether an athlete has a Y chromosome - the question is whether somebody is female. And genotype testing is one test; phenotype (genital inspection) is another test. For 99.99% of human history, genital inspection at birth is what determines if somebody is male or female. What do you call a baby born without a penis and without testicles? A girl. That’s a biological determination and valid test. The problem with DSDs is that different tests produce divergent results, so it depends on which biological test is used, and the biology doesn’t compel any one test. The biologist begs the question in referring to somebody with a Y chromosome as necessarily being ‘male’, but that’s what we’re trying to figure out. I sure wouldn’t call a baby born without penis and without testicles a ‘male’. As for sports, it’s purely a policy issue which test to use and who’s allowed to compete. Contrary to Emma, this case has nothing to do with ‘human rights’ or ‘gender identity’. It has to do with a purely biological question and the answer to the question is that the biology can’t answer the question. Why not? B/c there’s gray area in nature, and it’s arbitrary how to carve up the gray area.
@@RC-qf3mp Every person with a DSD is either male or female just like everyone else. Khelif is male. Males are stronger than females PRIOR to puberty as well.
@@mattvanderwalt6220 they did the test twice, so they passed a year before, failing the second test mid-competition. Why? They haven't even told us what was tested for.
@@RC-qf3mp atlete with Y chromosome is genetically male, because biological females have XX chromosome and no Y chromosomes except for mozaics which are extremely rare and even in that case They would have advantage over XX exclusively. There is no ‘Gray area. Science understands exactly what’s happening But people like you pretend things aren’t clear to suit their agenda.
Anyone else here wishing to return to school with Emma as both the biology teacher and the principal?
I mean, I love biology, and my teacher was good. but Dr Hilton is a real gem.
She' d make an excellent head girl too.
if by real gem you mean got so much wrong and worthless, then you are correct.
Yes, he deserved sympathy for the adolescent he was but he knows he's a man now and knows he shouldn't be punching women.
i would imagine they're not approaching it from that viewpoint, they'll probably think "i've been dealt a bad hand here and i'm going to play it to win".
also the fact that the policy of the IOC allows them to compete, so they don't feel any guilt because they're competing under the rules that have been set.
as of now the IOC are saying they won't govern the next Olympic boxing, which is an admittance of failure... they want to pass the buck and move away from this shyt show ASAP.
@@Writeous0ne I take your point, they handled it very badly. They were wrong and he, himself was wrong.
This doctor is very clear and concise describing the nuances of sex in sport and the issues that surround them.
I cannot fathom how anyone can’t see how dangerous it is to let a male fight a woman
They do. They just choose to be blind.
And nothing will change unless someone gets punished.
Who is a man fighting a woman here?
@@arnigeir1597 the one with the testes 🙄
@@Michelle-vv9lk and who has testes?
@@arnigeir1597 Just look at "Angela Carini" and "Imane Khelif". It's not too hard to see one of them is a MAN. (Hint: only one of them has bewbs).
How women's safe less important to one man's health problem.
The female boxers that were forced in the ring with males should sue IOC. And the males themselves.
Nobody was forced into a ring with anybody. The IOC has rules, and the rules dictate who qualifies to compete in the ‘women’s category’. If Khelif broke the rules, then point out which rule was broken. The fact is the IOC rule is to look at passport classification, and Khelif has F on the passport. You are infantilizing women by suggesting they can’t consent to the rules of a game.
@@RC-qf3mp Whatever the IOC rules are, they assured Khelifs opponents that he was a woman. The lied. Sue them.
@@tinawebley3985 If Algeria issues the passport that says Khelif is female, and if Khelif is not female, then the IOC is victim of Algeria. But Algeria doesn’t allow for sex changes or gender identity - so Khelif was deemed female at birth. So maybe you should sue the doctor who looked at baby Khelif, saw that baby Khelif has no penis and no testicles, so marked ‘F’ on the birth certificate. Do you think the doctor should be sued and that it’s mistaken to believe that such a baby is female? What country are you from and how do they classify babies in your country that are born without a penis and without testicles?
@@RC-qf3mp You are completely off base. Just like in a fair fight a male could sue if the other male was roided up to be 2.5x stronger than they could ever be, and they had to fight them assuming they were fighting a fair fight, this works the same way.
@@sirellyn there are rules against using steroids. There isn’t a rule against having a DSD. If there were, it would be illegal and discriminatory. You need to show which IOC rules Khelif broke. If you don’t like the IOC rules, take it up with the IOC. Don’t hate the player, hate the rule-making body. And while you’re at it, please define for us what a ‘female’ is, because where i come from, if a baby is born without a penis and without testicles, it’s a female, not a male. Maybe where you’re from, lots of men have no balls. I would’nt be surprised. 😯
sport selects for advantage. That's why male-DSD athletes with the benefits of male puberty (like Semenya) are so disproportionately overrepresented in women's sports (compared to the prevalence in the general population). The only way to fairness for female athletes is: sex verification early in the career, and if necessary an additional DSD diagnosis. Anyone with male advantage needs to compete in the male category.
💯
Thank you, Dr. Hilton (Emma). Much appreciated.
1) I box and know that there had been complaints about Imane Khelif for years. This was before the IBA tests and their involvement. Female boxers, coaches, and boxing organizations filed complaints about Khelif being a man ever since he started in the adult womens boxing circuit. Look at his fight with Brianda Cruz from a year ago. He almost massacred her, and he's walking into her punches without flinching and with his guard down. He's not afraid of Cruz and can withstand her punches. He's also holding back a lot. That's a red flag.
2) This was handled privately initially. The IBA tested twice and found Khelif was a biological man. Khelif was given the opportunity to retest at the IBA's expense. Khelif refused. Khelif could have appealed and did so initially and then dropped the appeal and so he was banned from the world championships. This was over a year go when these tests were done, so Khelif knew about his genetics at least in 2023.
3) Khelif applied for the Olympics anyhow despite the genetic tests and despite being banned from the World Championships. The IBA sent a letter with the test results to the medical team for the IOC a year ago to warn them about Khelif. This was not done publicly, but a private letter with the test results. The IOC didn't respond and allowed Khelif in. They said they only use passports to verify biological sex.
4) When Khelif boxed Carini and Carini didn't last in the ring because her nose was broken and she was bloody, people knew Khelif was a man. His build, the blows to her face, and blood within 46 seconds are red flags of abnormal strength. The IBA was then forced to do a press releae on their website saying they told the IOC a year ago, and Khelif knew a year ago as well. This was now a safety and dangerous game that the IOC and Khelif were playing.
5) The IOC president, Thomas Bach, did a press conference and disregarded the IBA and their results. The IOC said they don't do testing at all. They only look at the passport. The IBA was then forced to do a press conference in Paris because Khelif was getting ready to fight more women and potentially seriously injure or kill a woman. Even the VP for the World Boxing Organization came out and said Khelif and several others were biological men.
6) The IOC has done nothing (not one single test) since and allows Khelif and other biological men to compete in a woman' s boxing competition. Khelif and his team try to drum up sympathy and do interviews and bring more attention to their so-called "private" situation. If it's private, then why does Khelif do interviews and constantly post on social media about it?
7) Khelif dresses, walks,talks, and sits like a young adult man. Khelif literally wears men's suits, clothing, and jewelry. It's so blatant, and Khelif posts pics on his Instagram flaunting it. He doesn't care because the IOC isn't stopping him.
This is essentially what happened. Everyone knew, including Khelif, and they are not going to stop until a woman is killed.
Same rules for all athletes. Passport sex is what they go by. In the old days , it was a genital test. On passport for Algeria , it goes by genital sex observed at birth. Same rules for all women boxers at the Olympics.
@@RC-qf3mp they weren't doing genital tests in the Olympics. They did a genetic test (cheek swab test) and they stopped doing it around 2016 claiming that it was discriminatory. This was despite over 90% of female athletes saying they still wanted genetic testing in the Olympics.
Athletes don't just 'turn up at the Olympics'! As soon as you get to to more than the regional level you're in the world of drug testing. If you reach the National/International level the testing gets more rigorous. There is no way after the IBA testing and ban that Khelif does not know exactly what condition 'she' has.
Absolutely ridiculous that the IOC uses the sex on ones passport as criterion, when in reality unambiguous biologically attested sex 'Female' should be the yardstick in question , namely for any professional sports.
They're just going along with the ideology. Trans-identified men get birth certificates and passports changed to F. So, if that's the IOC's criteria, then they can't be labeled as "phobic"
@@pegm5937 Correct, if you trace it back it goes to their change in policy in 2021, they had meetings to discuss these things, i would assume that those meetings were heavily influenced by progressives/gender theory.
they messed up because they stop recognizing the IBA and had no other governing body that could take up the responsibility of gender eligibility policies....
Khelif could end this controversy immediately by allowing the IBA to release ALL of the results of her medical tests. The fact that she does not certainly raises concern.
(Note Karyotype is just an initial SCREEN. But more tests would need to be done to demonstrate she did not go through a testosterone mediated puberty.)
Exactly! I find it very sus that Khelif isn't publishing those test results. He is embroiled in an international controversy regarding his gender, if he was so sure that he is a woman he should have been the first to publish it to prove himself. If you're refusing to publish it you're hiding something incriminating! He also dropped his appeal against the IBA disqualifying him. He realised he can't prove he has XX chromosomes. lol
Karyotyping is too involved to be a screening test.
Time to separate science from wokeness, and stop talking male/men and female/women, and instead adopt XX, XY and Intersex for three competitive categories. We can still respect personal preferences to identify as a man or woman regardless of what the DNA says.
The thing that never get's discussed in the debate is, "IS THIS EXPLOITABLE?" If a nation state, who has a largish population, tests large amounts of their population and directs those intersex people into their olympics programs they could likely exploit this for an advantage, therefore it should be banned.
Men aspiring to compete against women will always be more common in elite levels because the advantage maleness gives is so great. It's a numbers game.
This question was answered in the last 15 years since Semenya won gold in the 2009 worlds in 800m coming from "nowhere". Because it took over 10 years for World Athletics to ban/regulate DSD athlete about a dozen of them appeared over the years Of course this was hadly systematic "exploitation" but coaches in African countries where DSD conditions are more frequent and more importantly remain untreated/undiscovered longer obviously looked for such athletes to gain international prize money or medals
The deplorable zenith was in the Rio Olympics 2016 when all 3 800m medals went to DSD xy "women" and the real beaten women stammered in tears during interviews because they could hardly speak openly against the unfairness as it had already been framed as discrimination and "racism" by some media.
It is . And it has happened to people. Communist Germany looked for dsd women and gave them hormones with no consent ( and no explanation as to what was done to them ). Some of them did manage to live out thire lives as men after thet but some ended up killing themselves. I think it's very important to remember thet no all man ( or athletes ) come from places where they have a choice if to compete at all . So yes it can and has been explained in very horrible ways and you are right . People should talk about it more . An athlete who finds out they are dsd and don't want to compete may be abet to do it if they from Europe but the same person would not have a choice if they are from China or Korea
Yes! @@bartolo498
Yeah - you could literally use pubity as doping...
This who wanted IK to continue to box women probably hasn’t taken a full on punch to the head. The gloves aren’t pillows- they are there to protect the puncher’s hands, NOT the recipient. Head gear only protect from scratches, the concussion is full on and repeated banging will hurt your head the next few days. In fact, before they had gloves for boxing fighters used to go for body shots more because if you punch the head repeatedly it’s easy to hurt the hands. So concussions are more dangerous w gloves.
Hence, as much as I sympathize with IK on what she went through, she is FUNCTIONALLY a dude, and should only fight other dudes.
He is also a male with a male body, so HE not she.
So, the policy is; lets be nice to men pretending to be women but nasty to real women. There is no way that those two boxers didn't know that they are male, even if they have lived all of their lives as women. Of course, they continue in the women's category because they know that they'll lose in the first round of the men's category.
Khelif doesn't live like a woman. Khelif dresses in men's clothes and mens suits. Khelif walks, talks and sits like a young adult man. There are pics on Instagram and on elbilad TV before the Olympics. I think it's suspicious.
Great and much needed conversation. Thank you. I wish we didn't had to discuss this topic at this day and age but here we are.. at a time where common sense doesn't seem quite that common at all.
This is a poor video, with several lies. She's talking as if she knows what condition she has, based on a dubious undisclosed test.
@arnigeir1597 then publish the test results, nothing to hide is there?
At this point denying his beating a woman and cheating is just making you all look sexist and stupid.
Huh? Common sense is that somebody born without a penis and without testicles is a GIRL, not a boy. This biologists is saying the sometimes a baby born without a penis and without testicles can really be a BOY. Um. No. That’s not a boy. I don’t care if there are ‘internal testes’ or gonad streaks or whatever. If you don’t have a penis and don’t have testicles, you are not a BOY. You’re a GIRL. Why do you disagree with that? Nonsense.
So if these boxers are found to be actually male, what about the actual female boxers who had their dreams dashed and their medals basically robbed from them along really with a whole host of acolades they wont be getting in effect probably redirecting their entire live's, i myself find this atrocity discusting, and i hope the olympics pays dearly. 16:42
No such thing as "DSD or Intersex". People begin to invent nomenclature to make conditions a separate entity. Male child can sometimes be born with bilateral undescended testes. The doctor notices the absence of the scrotum and testes and automatically writes "female" on the birth certificate. No doctor will bother to examine if the new born has a vagina. The child will be brought up by the parents as a female. This child has an XY chromosome and in every biological aspects of his development is of a male characteristics. This becomes very obvious when he approaches puberty, because at this time, his testes, although undescended, are functioning normally. This means a surge of testosterone. This "female" child will then show masculine characteristics. He can switch to being a male if he wants to, or continue with his belief that he is intersex and has to live with this "condition". But he is 100% male.
That... is what "a condition" is though? Something with a common cause and set of diagnostic criteria. So what you outlined is 5-ARD DSD, as opposed to CAIS which also results in undescended testes but does not result in masculinization since they don't respond to testosterone. These are caused by specific genetic mutations.
'intersex' is an outdated and inaccurate term.
DSDs describe actual conditions.
@@atticstattic Intersex is not outdated. It still is the medical term used. DSD is an umbrella term for hormonal and genetic conditions. It doesn't describe the actual condition. Oy.
You understood Khelif's medical condition very well and were able to explain it clearly, yet you do not accept the medical term under which this condition falls? Disorder of Sex Development is a medical term. We do need to invent nomenclature to classify and categorise newly discovered things especially in biology at large. DSD is just an umbrella term to regroup a number of conditions and syndromes relating to chromosome and hormonal abnormalities which lead to abnormal sex development.
@@benu_bird
'Intersex' doesn't describe _anything_ - that's why it isn't a valid scientific or medical term. DSD is a general category for the 40-something genetic conditions that are variations of the sex binary.
Is that a gold medal in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Excellent review of the issues in general and this case in particular.
What we need to realise today is that we have genetically abnormal born kids, and instead of letting parents decide what they should be or become, the doctors should step in and make their families aware of the situation and give the option at an early stage! Education is part of the process, we can't control the world but we can create a platform that allows humanity to understand how this world is evoluting, changing and evolving around us so we can all start contributing instead of fighting
I hope Dr Emma has alot of good people around her because the woke mob will no doubt come for her.
Thank you for the clarity.
This wasn’t clear at all. It was dishonest. The problem exists for a reason - b/c there’s no simple answer. Bringing in a biologist to spout off about non-biological issues like ‘fairness’ is a red-herring. Biologists disagree among themselves on how to classify people with DSDs because different biological tests for sex yield divergent results. It’s not wrong to inspect the genitals to determine sex (phenotype test). It’s not wrong to look at a baby born without a penis and without testicles and to put ‘female’ on the birth certificate. Sure, the baby might have a defective Y chromosome. But the question is whether a female can have a defective Y chromosome. And nothing in the biology says that can’t be the case - and in fact, that’s exactly what people did for all of human history in classifying by sex at birth. This was a one-sided discussion filled with red-herrings and fast moves that go back and forth between speculative, controversial biological claims and totally arbitrary non-biological policy speculations on ‘fairness’. It was nonsense and amateurish.
@@RC-qf3mp It's only complicated if people choose feelings over facts. If you have a Y chromosome you are a man; without the Y you don't have male level testosterone, denser muscles, and massive upper body strength compared to XX. And it's the Y that gives you male puberty.
@@desertquill1939 you must be confusing me for a trans ideologist. I am nothing of the sort. My argument is based on objective fact and biology. The problem is biology has limits and all sciences have gray-areas in classification at times, esp for anomalies. Intersex conditions are anomalous and do not fit neatly in a biological framework geared towards understanding normal sexual reproduction. People with intersex conditions, however, are largely infertile/sterile.
The problem is simple. There are multiple tests for determining sex. Phenotype and genotype . Phenotype is what has been used for 99.99% of human history - baby is born, look between the legs, if you see a penis and testicles, it’s a male. Otherwise, female. A genotype test looks at chromosomes. Chromosomes, however, can be defective. And so even though it’s clear that ALL healthy fetuses with normal XY chromosomes become males and develop male genitalia, it is not the case that all people with Y chromosomes have healthy Y chromosomes. Also, some have XXY and XXXY or XXXXY. Funky things can happen with the Y, such that the person doesn’t develop male genitalia and so is not a male. What do you call a baby born without a penis and without testicles? That’s right - a girl. And some girls have defective Y chromosomes. Some even have internal testes. But if you got a vagina, no penis and no testicles, you can still be a girl with your internal tests, just not a typical female, but a female nonetheless. And intersex people have intersex puberties. Each puberty is its own thing belonging to a specific individual. Ultimately, it would be best to just call intersex people ‘intersex’ and neither totally or typically male nor female. But since society forces us to lump them into one category or another, it makes the most sense to lump them with and as female, given the lack of male genitalia and closer phenotype to typical females. No one test settles the issue. If it did, we’d all just use the test and there’d be no problem. But sex for intersex people is in a gray area of reality and it’s just our desire to draw lines that creates artificial distinctions and controversy. Ultimately, no ONE test determines the sex of intersex people because multiple tests give divergent results. That’s how and why we have this problem in sports. But people immediately want to throw in their two cents on ‘fairness’ or testosterone or ‘male puberty’, all of which are irrelevant to the question of whether the athlete in question is male or female. If male, they don’t belong in female sports. If female, then ‘fairness’ or testosterone levels don’t matter - for the same reason genetic fairness and testosterone don’t matter in men’s basketball.
This topic stokes outrage, and outrage rarely leads to logical thinking. As such, i don’t expect rational responses to my analysis.
@@desertquill1939 no, my feelings have nothing to do with it. I care about objective facts , like the fact that a baby born without a penis and without testicles cannot be male. And if not male, then female.
@@RC-qf3mp Please look up legitimate news articles. Khelif has internal male organs. You don't go through male puberty without testes. Look up Caster Semenya, who has the same condition and admits to having internal testes. After years of stealing medals from women he was finally banned a few years ago.
Khelif has a Y chromosome and therefore is a male. Women's sports are not a catchall for male genetic abnormalities. And women shouldn't have to roll over and put these men ahead of fair play and common sense just to be "nice."
It’s a very sad situation as they would both have thought they were female right up to the tests in all probability.
Testing used to be done as a matter of course for all athletes that wanted to compete in women’s sports.
What makes somebody a female? Isn’t somebody born without a penis and without testicles a female? Genotype testing can show if you have Y chromosomes or not - but so what? Who said chromosomes are what make somebody male or female? That’s exactly what the dispute is about. People have been classifying newborn babies as male and female since forever, and they did it without genetic testing. It’s not that complicated. It’s an arbitrary bias to prioritize one test (genotype) over another (genital inspection, phenotype). The reason why this controversy exists in sports is that the tests can yield divergent results for people with DSDs and the science doesn’t compel any one test. It’s ARBITRARY.
@@RC-qf3mp You're right. Chromosomes alone don't make you male or female. There are various conditions ranging from specific mutations to SRY translocation that can "subvert" one's expected sexual development. But it is in no way "arbitrary" to require genetic testing. Although observing someone's phenotype is a reasonable proxy for genetic sex in the majority of cases, you cannot determine whether someone has an unfair performance advantage by looking at them. Genomic testing would indeed put this to bed.
Your chromosomes and gametes determine your sex. Children that go through male puberty have a significant advantage over those who do not. Genitalia can be misleading, especially in cases of DSDs. Trans people can also opt to have cosmetic surgery on their genitalia which means genitalia is not a valid determination of sex @@RC-qf3mp
@@RC-qf3mp biological scientists determines it. People like Richard Dawkins have real credibility so let’s go with them.
There are variations within humans that make us no less human…for example 6 toes vs 5 still makes you a human.
A Y chromosome but with a variation still makes you a male.
@@RC-qf3mp Chromosomes ARE what makes a person male or female. Gential inspection is not a test, it's an observation. And in >0,1% of the population, that observation can be false. There are no 'divergent results' of 'different tests' here. You keep repeating the same false statement - it would be really useful if you consulted a biology book.
Is only L side playing audio or do I need new headphones? 🤔
Only left side playing!
@@arthurmeeha! I was thinking the same thing 😅
IOC (and other organisations not valuing th safety and fairness concerns) want’s to appear inclusive. It’ astounding the HBT… -movement have scared so many presumably ”ordinary” people in boards into fighting their fight.
SRY trigger and effect is what we are talking about. If she has SRY, then we can safely say from looking at her that she has undergone male viralisation. Identify the y chromosome or at least SRY, and if it's there, she is a male. If she had the SRY but no viralisation then I don't think it matters.
He tested male twice and has a voice like any average bloke. He clearly knows perfectly well that he's a man
One look at Khelif and it is completely obvious that their body has been masculininsed by testosterone. It is literally immediately obvious to the eye.
Khelif was eliminated from the female category at the world championships, therefore she is eligible for the male category.
He's clearly undergone virilisation at puberty.
The SRY is involved in male genitalia development....it should prevent the development of female genitalia. Occasionally this misfires..... However If the individual is XY puberty will further masculinize them.
Excellent - measured, reasoned and sympathetic, but factual. Quite extraordinary that the biological passport (standard for WADA's doping control) of an athlete could not include something as fundamental as sex. That the bio passport might be inaccurate about such a thing suggests the frailties of that system. The IOC have become a clown-show: that they can seriously promote male vs female boxing with a straight face is so indicative of the weird alt-truth world we now live in.
Great interview! Dr Emma Hilton has certainly done the rounds on this issue in the last few weeks. Perhaps now the alternative media could focus on the "where now?" angle... the IOC will not rescind the medals won by Imane Khelif or Lin Yu-Ting, nor will they compensate in any way the female boxers who lost. The 3 biological women who finished 4th-5th-6th behind 3 DSD athletes in the Rio 800m women's race have never been acknowledged.
So, as outrageous what happened at the Paris Olympics is, the real question is how to rectify this situation so that it never happens again... which starts with an uncompromised amateur world boxing federation which would have guidelines for protecting the women's category from trans & intersex athletes in-line with those already in place for athletics, swimming, weightlifting, etc.
they are mne. why we even discuss this ı don't know. first of all kahail is huge bigger than any other female boxer.even men do not fight with someone bigger and stronger than themselves at professional boxing.
Audio in the left headphone.
Can you fix this an reupload it?
Just put the headphone in your right ear if you want to hear it there. Problem solved!
@@RC-qf3mpreally not as funny as you thought it would be.
Just be prepared for trans to be the medal winners rather than unmodified women/girls. Studies show they are stronger than nonmodified women. The ruin of women’s sports.
The issue isn’t ‘trans’ but intersex. Trans is when the test for being a woman is gender identity (subjective self-identification). Intersex is a biological issue not subject to self-identification, but is an objective biological condition. The issue with some intersex athletes is that there is no one, clearly criteria for determining who is male or female among the intersex. Chromosomal tests, hormonal tests and genital inspection tests can yield divergent results. Different sports organizations can have different tests, so an athlete who counts as ‘female’ in one organization could be disqualified as ‘not female’ in another.
@@RC-qf3mp Genomic testing trumps genital inspection and is far less degrading, full stop. Your proposed standard of genital inspection would allow any SRS transwoman to compete in female divisions, so yes, trans is definitely part of the broader discussion the moment you join the conversation.
@@Viral9 no, genital inspection can also determine whether a penis and testicles were ever developed and then later removed. Scars, etc. I’m not opposed to both genital inspection AND a cheek swab for chromosomes, but the primary criterion for being female is the lack of ever having developed a penis and testicles. Chromosome tests aren’t more accurate at determining sex. Look at the history of chromosomal sex-testing and learn why it was abandoned by sports organizations. Also, some new genetic mutation can arrive that is not already accounted for in the testing. The core problem here is incommensurability - competing standards, and competing tests according to those competing standards. The clearest standard throughout human history and law for determining sex is genital inspection. Even newborn baboons and chimps are passed around by their mother so that the rest of the community can inspect the genitals. The mother turns the baby so the legs are spread open and shows everybody if it’s a male or female baby chimp or baboon.
@@RC-qf3mp I'm not advocating for chromosomal testing. I'm advocating for genomic testing. It's cheaper and faster than ever, a full workup with every mutation or recessive condition easily documented. Just compare against the genes known to cause any DSDs that can result in performance benefits. If someone has Swyer syndrome there's obviously no need for further testing. They're good to compete. But 5-ARD would be a completely different story. And if a new DSD is discovered then it can be found with zero additional work. Your "looks good to me" approach is woefully lacking because _you still refuse to acknowledge why the female division exists_
@@Viral9 female division exists for inclusion reasons, for money, for entertainment, etc. yes, the world would be fine without a women’s division and we’d find out who is the best in the world at various sports. Anybody who wants to watch high quality soccer is better off watching 15 year old boys or 50 year old men than the very best women.
As for genomic testing… I’m happy with any and all testing. But only the body is sexed, not the genes. Genes are like software programs that give instructions , the output is the body, the effect. Reasonable people can disagree on how to categorize DSDs by sex. There’s gray area and it’s arbitrary which standard is used when the biology doesn’t compel any one standard.
Sports aren’t fair genetically or financially. And never have been. Just watch men’s basketball .
We evolved to play close attention to each others genitals and to consider whether we can mate with another. That’s the evolutionary argument for genital inspection. We developed sexed bodies for sexual reproduction, regardless of whether we want to do it or not. At a minimum, we can recognize sex in other people. In identifying a woman with a DSD and internal testes as being female, I’m not making a mistake in identifying her chromosomes, I’m not attempting to identify chromosomes because I recognize the human body (phenotype) as constitutive of her sex.
"Experts" don't get anymore convincing and clear-talking than Emma Hilton.
She’s not an ‘expert’ on policy. She’s mainly speaking as a political advocate, not a biologist. quillette should’ve had a biologist with an opposing point of view for a real debate. Instead, we got appeal to emotion and vague talk of ‘fairness’ without getting into the crux of the matter.
I think there are 2 distinct issues at play in this case. Firstly its DSD and its affect on people who have these issues. The resultant levels of testosterone during pubity - and if it could be used as 'pubity doping' if recognised by trainers at that stage... testosterone is literally the reason trans women are excluded from many sports, its the same argument... Then also that athletes may have genetic ananolamies (born-with advantages) which make them better at doing certain things over others (along with dedication and traing). But at which point do these anomalies result in an unfair advantage over other athletes...
The difference that male testosterone gives to an XY chromosome person is enormous when compared to a female XX. The reason Men and Women are separated in Sport is because of the huge advantage that the male XY chromosome gives to men.
@@mc.8391 Exactly.
When he's a MALE that's when. A micro penis is the usual reason in developing countries they sometimes decide the child is a girl. I assume it was the parents who wrongly decided to register him as a girl. I doubt any medics were even involved where he was born.
According to Dr. Hilton, the IOC's position is that the distinction between males and females is not based on biological differences, but rather on gender identity. This means that an individual's gender identity determines whether they are considered female, not their biological distinctions between male and females which would put females at risk.
@@davefoss6201 Yes. But this has very little to do with my comment. In fact my comment kinda says the same thing. The IOC is 'looks at birth as girl is girl'... But as we can deduce as with their cases its not that straightforward. My comment is if looks girl but goes through male pubity then its a problem for 'natural' women who went through female pubity. Its straight physiological. Transwomen are banned for exactly the same thing. Not because they 'feel' female but because they went through male pubity.
Is it just me or is all the audio 1 sided? Only getting sound on left speaker
Me too
Male boxers punched female boxers and feminists said nothing!
Plenty feminists spoke out. Some of whom are now looking at a lawsuit. It's a disgusting state of affairs when all we want is fairness and equality and get death threats, told to shut up and verbally abused. Women's rights are being sidelined by the trans cult
That's only bc there's no data being released to use as solid proof. If the medical record said "undescended testicles, no ovaries, no uterus, underdeveloped penis"- we would have proof to stand on with voice!
The feminists are shut down by the trans rainbow collective I’m afraid.
Wrong. You're just spouting nonsense. Try looking up the term TERF, there you'll find all the feminists speaking out.
They're saying a lot actually. You're just not paying attention.
Surely an ultrasound, and internal examination and a blood test could sort this out
So basically it’s a bloke.
From time-to-time I've been going through the adult photos of Khelif and the Taiwanese boxer Lin and comparing them with photos of the unambiguous women boxers in the Women's Welterweight category. One of the things that stands out to me is the muscle to fat ratio difference between Khelif, Lin and the women boxers. Khelif and Lin are pure muscle and bone, very lean and no detectable breast tissue. The other female boxers do have normal, healthy fat distribution and breasts making their bodies more rounded. The facial features and hand structure of both Khelif and Lin are more consistent with maleness too. When Angela Carini said "I have never been hit so hard in my life" and the bout was over in 46 seconds that really says it all for what's happening in women's sports. As for the IOC's reliance on someone's passport as a way to categorize athletes, they should know that boxers hit each others bodies, not their passports. Thank you Dr. Hilton for presenting factual information and standing up for female athletes.
Hilton did nothing of the sort. She rambled on about her policy opinions but didn’t get to the core issues. She’s not standing up for females - we need to know who females are. Don’t you think somebody born with a vagina and no penis is a female? Hilton doesn’t!
Boxing has always courted controversy. It's all part of the promotion. It gets the gander up.
The IOC has moved towards a human rights framework but ignores the human rights of women. (I refuse to use the unnecessary qualifier 'biological'.)
I'm not sure that we can assume that Khelif can punch 2.5x harder than a non-DSD woman, given that she has been beaten by women 9 times out of 40 fights.
Those losses are when Khelif was younger and less experience. I box and that's not atypical. A year or 2 can make a huge difference in boxing especially if you're talking about someone become a fully grown adult man.
Imane knows he is male by now. He should have done the right thing by not going to the Olympics. Imane signed the IBA paperwork, as did the other male boxer, acknowledging the results. They were given the opportunity to contest the results and they didn’t. THAT should speak volumes.
But nobody have seen the test results, and the organisation who done the test are known to be corrupt . plus they don't want to show the test result saying it is confidential. it s not confidential now.
HOW COULD YOU START THIS DEBAT WITHOUT SEEING THE RESULTS TEST, INCREDIBLE
All imane has to do is prove them wrong .. with proof
@@PrincesaGreece Yes i agree and all those debats should not of hapened without them asking to see the results...this is called prejudging.
The medical ethics board forbids disclosing medical test results without the permission of the individual. Check HIPA laws. Semenya’ s case was passed on by irresponsible doctors to the media in Berlin at the time. Many countries are allowing people to determine their own gender. Cases of r**pe in female prisons by biological male inmates have been reported in Scotland and parts of US.
I Khelif was shown the results both times, IBA showed the document with Khelif’s signature at a press conference, they had to cover the actual DNA result in compliance with international law. He was told he could appeal. He started the appeal, then dropped it. This was all revealed at the IBA press conference.
The coaches said Khelifs chromosomes changed a bit in the mountains where Khelif lives with family.
At time 3:30
ua-cam.com/video/_JYjYcZ5jS8/v-deo.htmlsi=mR8KBnpEJZOTgPOq
so we've got a lot of 'mountain-females' all over the world who just haven't found out yet that they can compete in women's sport? 😂
Strange opening question. What are "biological" purposes?
Using the qualification "biological" confirms there are sexes which aren't biological. Gender and sex are the same thing.
Gender is not a subjective condition, it is an objective fact.
Sex is objective biological reality. Gender is a person’s psychological perception of their own sex and whether or not their perception matches the biological reality. So, not the same thing.
@@AlexxAmadeo In sports there are two sporting categories: male category and female category. Gender isn't relevant to either.
the biological sex is defined by the XY sex-determination system and influences the hormons, heart, lungs, muscles, … and is objective through testing.
the subjective psychological, sociological, taxical, … sex/gender can change.
in germany you can change your gender every year.
Completely wrong way round. Biology is objective (it's just not as simple as being always binary in terms of sex). Gender is not. That's much more subjective, and even at an individual level.
What is, of course, binary is whether an XY chromosome pair is present. Up until the Sydney Olympics that was exactly the categorisation used by the IOC for competing in male and female events. The IAAF's approach is that those with the developmental disorder mentioned here must take testosterone-lowering drugs in order to compete in the female categories.
There is no simple answer to this sort of dilemma that is going to be agreeable to everybody. So, in this case, do you go with the interests of the vast majority (that is those women who are XX) or with the much smaller number who have the XY developmental disorder. If you do allow for the latter, do you try and "level the playing field" somewhat with
It is notable that some sports like boxing have weight categories for that very purpose. Even some rowing events have limited weight categories. In disabled sport, there's a complex system of categorisation.
Of course we could get rid of the dilemma by simply not having "male" and "female" categories of sport and simply have "XX" and "XY" categories. However, I don't see the XX 100 metres event being a catchy name.
Gender was once just a synonym for sex, but over time this situation gradually changed so that gender began to be more 'malleable' in its usage. By the 1900s the words sex and gender were no longer understood to be identical in meaning. The word gender is now commonly undertood to be a 'social construct', describing the social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Words are slippery things . . .
a great video, thanks for this.
THANK YOU! FINALLY real science! 🙇♀️👏❤️
Saying that language, some particular term is stigmatizing is only so from the point of view of the ones who feel persecuted. Even when objectively, linguistically there is nothing inherently stigmatizing, denigrating or bigoted in it. It's a plain and simple term to denote, as briefly, and as clearly as can, the meaning of it, what it refers to. What hell is stigmatizing in "inter" and "sex" put together? Nothing!
Much like there is nothing inherently invalidating in saying 'there are two genders'. Aside from the very few actually bigoted people of that minority, no one else means any insult or invalidation by stating a biological fact. It doesn't mean it automatically excludes e.g.: people with gender dysphoria or gender-fluidity. There are still two genders, and then there are the people who psychologically feel like they belong to the other, both or neither. If there weren't any genders, and it was nothing but a social construct, as they keep saying, then terms like "gender-fluid" and "non-binary" would also be useless and pointless, since there would be nothing to be 'fluid between' or be 'neither' of, defeating their own, preferred terminology, which they refuse to admit or even realize.
The main reason they feel stigmatized by certain terms or certain statements is because they keep telling themselves and one another that they should feel attacked, even when it's not intended. And most of the time, by most of society, it isn't intended. Only by a minority. But, because of the online culture war and how it is amplified and focus is given to vitriolic elements, they make it seem like the real bigots represent a far larger portion of the populace than they actually do. And it also makes it seem like the unhinged elements on the so called progressive side pushing the acceptance of a movement-turned-ideology are a far larger than they actually are. It gives both of their fringes more voice, more influence, enough that they hijack the culture and the conversation, and even affect politics and policies, when they are both still just an obnoxious and unhinged minority successfully bullying the sane majority into silence and submission.
Great podcast!
Good to see a presentation of the facts without the extra afferent emotions.
Why's there a Toronto Maple Leafs player standing guard in the background?
Intersex should be banned from professional sports, it's just too messy and unfair
Thank you!❤
Genetics and chromosomes don't lie...... why are we debating this ????
Xy is a male
Don't the individual international sporting bodies largely determine the rules for their respective sport and who is allowed to participate, even in the Olympics? And many of them have ruled that transwomen are not allowed to compete for the most part? That is not even touched on in this conversation.
You should mention inguianal canal function , the testis ligament did not bring the testis down form back of lower abdomen through inguianal canal to the scrotum , thus testis remained undesended
I can not see any sport when people try to beat up eachother its disgusting and primitiv and should not be called sport
You definitely are a biological woman.
There is something that needs to be repeated over and over again, in face of activist claims:
Access to organized sport is not a question of human rights. Access to organized sport is a privilege gained by complying with the rules. And the rules must ensure fair competition.
When someone in a debate about sport categories brings up human rights, shut them down immediately and return to the topic.
You’re right, but the main ‘activist’ here is Hilton. She’s literally part of an advocacy group on this topic, and so her ‘biology’ analysis is thoroughly tainted and unobjective. There wasn’t even a debate with a biologist with an opposing view in this video. Shame on Quillette for not following basic standards of rationality. The ‘human right’ issue is that all women are allowed to play in women’s sports. Is Khelif a woman? What’s a woman? An adult human female. And what’s a female? In humans, you look between the legs when a baby is born and it’s apparent who is male or female. And Khelif was observed to be a female at birth. It’s just that simple. why can’t Hilton provide fair and balanced analysis? B/c she’s a biased political advocate.
@@RC-qf3mp You are off-topic under my comment, but ok.
There are no "opposing view" biologists. There is absolutely NO debate about what sex means in biology. Sex is binary and 100% understood.
And no, sex is not accurately determined by looking between the legs of a baby. It's a good first approximation, but potentially inaccurate due to well-known genetic disorders. Sex is defined by the type of gamete the individual has potential to produce - males small motile gametes, females big immotile gametes. Khelif seems to have a functional SRY gene, thus testes, thus a potential to produce sperm, thus it's a male. The objective reality does not give a F what a doctor in Algeria wrote in his birth certificate. And sport regulation should also only care about objective reality. This is a trivial ethical decision, and if the world was not full of blithering idiots brainwashed by postmodern extremism, there would have never been ANY discussion about this. Women's sport is for women, Khelif is male, end of story.
They manage to have different categories for para-olympics for different types of abilities. Surely they can figure out a fair playing field for the rest of us too. We all want a chance to play, and player or spectator we all want a fair competition, and it’s clearly not fair at the moment.
What if, hear me out, she has a DSD as a woman? Meaning she is female, with a dsd that causing higher production of testosterone? These disorders are essentially a form of hermaproditism. The questions is, where should the lines be drawn about this; and is an intersex/trans division viable?
Yes 🙌 technically though she has XY which is male so definitely intersex I agree they will possibly need their own league
@@kaleidoscopesthirdeyevizions I wish this was what was discussed, instead of people pretending she is a man or that she doesn't have a condition. Its become a dishonest discourse, instead of a discussion about the facts of the matter.
Thank you for being reasonable and polite.
@@fettbub92 yeah 💯 I honestly think it woke me up to how many people don't even know there are intersex people. I honestly doubt this boxer even ever got told her truth so yeah it's difficult to have a real discussion on some of this because people will think what they want to .
Certainly nobody could have imagined that after decades of encouraging and mandating that girls be allowed to compete against boys in sports and boys open up their spaces to both sexes that somehow we would end up in this situation. I mean that is what we must tell ourselves, right?
Why? follow the money.
And who are XX/XXY mosaic? Male or female?
They would be male. The presence of the Y chromosome (more specifically, the SRY gene) results in the formation of testes which pushes a fetus down a male developmental pathway (when other genetic disorders are not present). Feel free to review "Rare Disorder of Sexual Differentiation with a Mosaic 46,XX/47,XXY in a Klinefelter Syndrome Individual" which was a teen boy karyotyped as 33% 47,XXY, 67% 46,XX. But you have indeed presented an exceptionally rare scenario. Less than 0.5% of the population have chromosomal DSDs, and the majority of them can be confidently assigned as male or female at birth, at least by the western medicine. But we also screen for chromosomal abnormalities during pregnancy, so we're more likely to discover them.
@@Viral9 and can they, by any chance, give birth?
@@Lacaena Sorry, what? Can someone with 46,XX/47,XXY mosaicism, who has testes and a penis, carry and birth a child? No, they cannot.
Y is always a guY.
woman isn't a catch-all category for genetically scrambled males. y is always a guy. regardless of morphology.
Sound is bad
Renée Richards 1976 NY Supreme Court ruled in her favor to compete in the US Open with Women, post op.
It was a landmark case.
She also coached Martina.
Stella Walsh
I can go one and on and on
This is a case of intersex! Algeria will turn the blind eye to it! Purely for cultural and tribal reasons.... I am sure Khalifa is living in a confusion as we speak.... she or he can only obey the rules and act accordingly.... that's why I have never blamed this individual..... I just hope one day he or she will come out of that dark closet and show the world who they really are!
There's an audio issue here; only the left side is playing.
We need an lgbtq sector for physical competitions, imo.
being lesbian or gay has noting to do with this issue - it's a sexual orientation, not a 'gender identity' or a DSD. We just need a competition category for males who don't want to compete in the male category (whether transwomen or male-DSD)... And we need to stop throwing L&G under the TQ*-bus!
"I think we have to think about" said from a "science lady" after having to answer the question "Is this a male or a female" just ended up the whole video for me. "Thinking" had to be done like 10 to 15 years ago. Now its there and "thinking" will not fix any damage done by it.
Stop playing with your cats, and start playing with your brains.
Who wants the "change" and why do they want it to happen. Background checks, psycho tests, prolonged physical tests. "Why dont you like your body" is a good question! 'How do you feel about the "testosterone" and about the "estrogen" '. The nature was the only unwritten law that couldnt be falsified. It was always either "this" or "that", untill somebody rushed in in the "temple of knowledge" without having the said knowledge and started "thinking" about stuff (like somebody on LSD).
The worst part of all this is: The decision making individuals are mostly from the "estrogen" origin, that do vote against themselves and their kind because "thinking" isnt their power somehow, even when all they do 24/7 is "thinking".
Has everybody already lost their mind, or was it done medically.
Women created an ideology that erases women, yet still find a way to blame men.
One thing that remains unexplained is Rationality Rules' claim about the agencies used by IBA to conduct the tests on Khelif and others
(see minute mark 8:36 in ua-cam.com/video/sWv7RQaLIxk/v-deo.htmlsi=NYeF6ZEG0UvVrovI&t=516)
"As for why precisely the IBA disqualified Imane, it goes from vague to vaguer. One official said that it was due to her failing a chromosome test, while another indicated elevated testosterone. And yet investigations into the facility who supposedly conducted the test revealed that they don't do either of these tests."
It's not clear where Rationality Rules is getting that claim.
It's coming from nowhere. I've heard all sorts of ridiculous claims now which supposedly disprove the results, such as gotchas like, "They said the tests were done in WADA labs, but WADA doesn't have labs." Correct. Labs obtain WADA accreditation. It was an accredited lab. Similarly, making assumptions about the specific test that was performed, or claiming that the lab in question could not have possibly performed one specific test, when there are multiple ways of screening for whether someone is male or female (forensic medicine has refined multiple techniques) is just silly.
These DEI ignits are just deserved
Females with females and males with males. Hard to understand?’
Please show me the proof that she went through abnormal bodily changes at puberty. Just sounds like a lot of speculation to me. The range of human diversity is quite staggering when its looked at carefully. We should perhaps not so easily make judgments as is apparently being done here.
And nobody questions the likes of Brittney Griner 🤣
06:15 XY5ARD is the name that cannot be mentioned...
Irrelevant to whether Khelif was born without a penis. If so, she’s female by the standards of Algeria and all places throughout all of human history. So had ‘female’ on her birth certificate and got a ‘female’ passport. If she has XY5ard, so be it - she’s a female with XY5ard. “But, but…my textbook says only males get XY5ard!!” Yeah, well, your textbook can arbitrarily classify DSDs as it pleases. Human civilization and law are clear - born without a penis = female. It’s not a wrong standard, just a different one from your textbook. Your book isn’t an authoritative bible. It’s just a book. You are caught up in circular reasoning and blind faith to a religious authority.
Are you looking for a lawsuit ?
Talking about gender, people personal preference about sex, LGBT and so, I respect them, dinner, playing tennis and some general social activities are okay. However, for sports, for fairness, people with different situations shall participate sports differently. This is not discrimination. You will not agree a high school athlete to compete with a primary one.
nah bro f them. dont even talk to them. keep away from them and keep away from them ur children. its beter to raise a gangster instead of raise a gay or trans child!word!
Now that we know what Imane is scientifically.... What's the next action? Someone should get behind bars for everything that has happened.
We don't know. The public hasn't been told anything
@@akashajones6079 It's 2024. Are you saying that this person can't still be identified at all? Would that mean there's no way or they're really just keeping secrets?
Are there any xx athletes that are mistaken at birth to be male? Or are all these disorders always males, or those having a y chromazone, that appear at least initially female?
Realistically, no. Since the observation of a penis and testes are how we "assign" sex, and the SRY gene must be present for the formation of testes, it generally doesn't go the other way.
Why not have trans categories of sports?
This is so irresponsible on an academic's behalf. Even though she said "what Kheliff PROBABLY has..." everybody is going to run with it as if it's the case. She won gold this time, but she isn't an unstoppable beating machine and it has been disproven that she has a congenital condition, meaning she is a standard biological woman. Thank god the government of Algeria didn't take the accusations seriously or she could be in jail right now or worse.
I box and I'll explain. A lot of those losses that Imane Khelif had occurred when Khelif as younger and a less experienced boxer. Yes, a year or 2 of training can make a difference in the ability of a boxer. Also, becoming a fully grown adult male also makes a difference in a few years.
What people don't understand is that in international boxing, you win by making contact with your opponent. It's not a fight like you would see in US boxing. Khelif is now a fully grown adult man with more experience, so hence more wins.
Also, technically, Khelif is not a good boxer. There are better biological women boxers who have way better techniques thank Khelif.
But because Khelif is allegedly a biological man, Khelif has clear advantages like brute strength, longer limbs and reach to hit his opponent, and larger longer lungs for more air and better endurance. I watched some the fights and Khelif does is hit a woman a few good times in the face and body and she's wounded because his punches are 2.6 times stronger than an adult woman. The woman is then struggling at that point because she's injured. So then Khelic can start mauling her with punches at that point. When Khelif gets hit by women, he's not flinching or even affected by their blows so Khekif s not going to get worn down.
The other tactic I've seen Khelif use is basically chasing the woman around the ring and mauling her with wild and strong punches. Because Khelif has better endurance and much stronger punches than his female opponents, Khelif can wear his female opponents out quicker.
If Khelif was in adult men's boxing, they would lose badly because those boxers have boxing skills and strength. But it's easy for Khelif to win on the adult women's circuit as a fully grown adult man because they got male strength and endurance on his side. Khelif doesn't really need good boxing techniques if they can injure women early on in the match with a few good punches; or just wear a woman out with better endurance.
A lot of assumptions being made here.
jjust check if there are testicles or ovaries. it's simple .
With a dsd, the testes can be inverted. A cheek swab test can identify male or female. DNA markers don't lie.
I had finally accepted that Khalif is an XY woman. Born female but with a Y that pops up later (Disorders in S*x Development or DSD). But what if we are all wrong and she is totally female? What evidence Dr. Emma Hilton has, to say Khalif is not a woman? Also, I draw the line somewhere. For me it is not so much the pair of chromosomes that does it, but the high levels of testosterone. XY chromosomes do not always guarantee strong muscular build or high levels of testosterone. So all of this is rather confusing.
With respect, just trust your own eyes and common sense. XX can't create a body like that. Only the Y creates the possibility for male puberty. Bottom line is Khelif has an unfair advantage because of his condition.
@@desertquill1939 one problem is that there’s no biological consensus on what distinguishes males from females when it comes to anomalous cases. It’s crystal clear each of us had a male and female parent. But for the rest of us who are not and will never be parents, and lack the capacity, the parent-model of classification does no good, and the gamete model derived from the parent model does no good. Science is poor at classifying anomalous cases, and this is one such instance - people with DSDs that render them problematic to traditional classificatory schemes. Specifically, biology can distinguish human sex by chromosome type, gonad type, gamete type, hormone levels/types, and phenotype (morphology). For almost all people, the male versions of chromosomes, gonad, gamete, etc., follows a clear pattern, as does the female sex class. But for some people with DSDs, there can be a mix among these dimensions. At that point, it becomes increasingly arbitrary whether to call such a person male or female, because either classification can be used, depending on how much weight is given to the various factors. ‘Arbitrary’ here does not mean random, or dumb, or not fact-based - the point is that there is no particular fact or set of facts COMPELLING one and only one standard. And that’s what’s happening here - at the extreme cases, sex classfication for at least some people with DSDs is completely arbitrary, not compelling by the science to be one way or another (not necessarily male or female). This is very disturbing for people with faith in God or faith in crystal clarity of science. The fact is that nature has gray area and this isn’t a defect of our science, it’s just a limit of what Nature lets us do.
To me there is appearance is enough proof that algerian boxer is not female.
Trump would love this pair!
Commenting for algorithm