A good summary, although not entirely accurate with regard to Semenya. Even fellow school pupils and some teachers were astounded to learn that "she" identified as female for sporting purposes, having taken it for granted that Semenya was male from appearance and mode of dress ie. wearing male uniform items. A desperately sad situation for the individual, but that does not alter biological facts and the desires of an outlier cannot intrude on the rights of the vast majority to enjoy fair ( and safe) competition.
Yes, coaches go looking for youth with the same DSD as Semenya, in the hope of getting them into the women's category. It's a whole thing & it can easily be stopped if we go back to having a cheek swab to identify chromosomes once a career for each athlete.
In my opinion, the IBA should publish the XY report to make the theory of XY chromosomes solid. The IBA should no longer give ambiguous arguments that can be played out.
@@taab84 They can’t because those results are obviously law protected and personal and any lawsuit against IBA in that case would be won without any doubt.
El Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, ex presidente del “Comité Médico”de la IBA y obstetra/ginecólogo con tres décadas de experiencia habló muy claro y calló a decenas de pseudoperiodistas y propagandistas que lo asediaron a preguntas. ua-cam.com/video/gxsciU1Wd7o/v-deo.htmlsi=0NMBUS2UWLicVecX
El Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, ex presidente del “Comité Médico”de la IBA y obstetra/ginecólogo con tres décadas de experiencia habló muy claro y calló a decenas de pseudoperiodistas y propagandistas que lo asediaron a preguntas. ua-cam.com/video/gxsciU1Wd7o/v-deo.htmlsi=0NMBUS2UWLicVecX
Since we don't see transgender-XX competing against males, I suspect that the XY subset who identify as female-competitors, dressing-room-invaders, and male-rapists-in-female-prisons are seeking ADVANTAGE over women. The "self-identification" aspect is merely a convenience to the aims of that subset.
This has nothing to do with transgender/transsexual. In the past this was called intersex. We are making everything difficult. Now, we have a syndrome, I guess, with a lot of varieties. The problem is still biologically based. We need clear rules, not guidelines.
@@elkiebeerepoot5829It does. LGBT activists engaged in including intersex people into the gender dysphoria club against intersex/DSD people. Trans and intersex are two totally different things.
You aren't speaking for the majority I'm guessing? Or maybe you are but they are very, very mute. The TAs i've debated here in the midwest ALL claim the right of self-identification.
@@calonstanni Having intersex males defined as women assumes substandard medical situations, like Caster Semenya as a Black in Apartheit South Africa. Looking rather female is not being female.
In the context of boxing you also have to consider safety. Female boxers fighting someone with the strength of a man can get hurt. If Castor Semenya won a race, you can ask if it was fair or not, but the losers won't end up in the hospital.
These women don't have the strength of the average male athlete. Most of, if not all of these women have as much, or more strength than the average male. If you're really worried about cheating, look for xx females taking testosterone doping. That's a real threat.
Have you seen both Khelif and Lin - neither of them are any close to a developed male with the bulk and muscles of a man. Carini just took a light jab (her head barely moved as she got hit), and she just chicken shitted out of the game.
@@yellowlynx This is video is about the general problem of defining womenhood in sports, not about specific people. Women's bones are more fragile. A "woman" boxer with something closer to male muscular development can simply do a lot of damage. That should have been mentioned.
@@yellowlynxMy eyes confirm they are men and the science supports. They should box with men in their weight class. Don’t pretend that small men don’t exist. Literally millions of them around the world.
Not how they are raised, not what the birth certificate says, not what a passport says, not about feelings, not about the IOC's inclusive mental gymnastics, not personally identifying as, not magical thinking... Strange how the disorders that confer the advantages of male puberty to an athlete are always treated with more deference than the safety and fairplay to unambiguous women athletes. It is NOT womens responsibility to make nice, share, empathize, and accommodate the Y chomazone to the detriment of their own safety, medals, scholarships, sponsorships, money, professional development, and job opportunities. Mammalian sex is determined genetically by the presence of X and Y chromosomes. Individuals homozygous for X (XX) are female, while heterozygous individuals (XY) are male. The presence of a Y chromosome causes the development of male characteristics, while its absence results in female characteristics. The XY system is also found in some insects and plants. It would be simple to have and announce the genetic test. Either in this case they are a great female boxer or they are in the wrong category. End the discussion, arguments, and speculation. While I sympathize and empathize for all people with a difficult medical diagnosis, sometimes life is very hard and I wish them well. Perhaps, athletes with complicated disorders should be in the Paralympic Games or have TransFemale & surprise chomazone tests and TransMale & surprise chomazones test categories. The Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS) is a network and advocacy group comprised of current and former collegiate and professional women athletes, their families and supporters
And it's not these athletes responsibility to accommodate the feelings of other athletes who are sore losers and inferior athletes. Both these athletes are biological females with higher than normal levels of testosterone.
No, it is the IOC's responsibility to have a standard that is more than a sex designation on a passport. "In mammals in general," says U professor David Carrier of the School of Biological Sciences, "the difference between males and females is often greatest in the structures that are used as weapons." The researchers rigged up a hand crank that would mimic the motions of a punch. They also measured participants' strength in pulling a line forward over their head, akin to the motion of throwing a spear. This tested an alternative hypothesis that males' upper body strength may have developed for the purpose of throwing or spear hunting. Twenty men and 19 women participated. "We had them fill out an activity questionnaire," Morris says, "and they had to score in the 'active' range. So, we weren't getting couch potatoes, we were getting people that were very fit and active." But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman.
Best proxy to discriminate categories _in sports_ (let's leave everything else aside here ok?) seems to be testosterone levels _throughout puberty_ , which could be difficult but not impossible to check because you don't discover yourself a high level athlete at 18. The two ranges are so different that you might want to call the categories high t and low t, and sex would have a superstrong correlation but not exact identification with that. In my view, gender dysphoric people should be allowed to have hormones when they're old enough to understand themselves better, meaning a trans woman _couldn't_ typically participate with bio women; but not _per se_ , only through testosterone levels measurements.
What about women with XY and CAIS then? I mean how do we measure those advantages, is it the testosterone alone that makes males stronger? Then it is not about DSDs or trans, we should only test for T. What about CIAS - since their bodies cannot process the T even if they have high T it is not an advantage, and btw, there are women who look like women and still have those conditions? What about biological women with higher T, but with their ovaries, uterus, and even period - can they compete? So for a woman to compete she should have all kinds of genetic tests throughout age 10 to 25? I see a lot of different comments, I see u do not come from a place of hate, which I respect, yet I'm really asking here. I did a deep dive, such controversies have been around since at least 1936 (earliest case I found), there was, for a period of time, literal genitalia tests. My first question was in relation to Maria Jose Martinez-Patiño who has very interesting story. What about people who have conditions leading to increase in HGH production? I got lost at some point. So about Imane Khelif there are no official medical tests for us to actually know what she has or not. I do not agree for example that trans women should compete, though I have no problem with them in general. So do u have some fullproof approach for testing?
It's not even just about the XY chromosomes; it's mainly about their testosterone (T) levels. Would a full biological (XX) woman be allowed to compete in any sport if she were taking steroids and had about the same T level as a man? Of course not. So although I can sympathize with someone who has a genetic gender defect at birth, if they have the same T level as a man, then they need to compete with men, regardless of how they were raised or what gender they chose to identify with.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
What if the testosterone level is within the female’s range? Because somehow their Y doesn’t function at all. That’s why the doctors declared girl when they were born. I believe their testosterone levels are within the female range, otherwise IOC would not have approved it.
It's the level of testosterone at birth that allowed the body to develop as a male that is very concerning. Lia Thomas had taken the drug to lower his testosterone to compete against women and he won the All American all the while being a mediocre swimmer (461) in the male category. It says it all.
Sorry, this is kind of a ridiculous statement. Testosterone is one aspect of a male body, but there’s so much more including larger lungs, bigger heart, bigger muscle mass, quicker reflexes,I could go on and on. A man can punch up to 160% harder than a woman.
For those who don't know, in a 2018 study published in Science, it was pointed out that individuals carrying the XY chromosome are all initially female during embryonic development. The differentiation into male depends entirely on the Sox9 gene protein, which guides the development of testes in those with the XY chromosome. If the Sox9 gene protein is not expressed, even individuals with the XY chromosome will develop as female. This condition, where the chromosomes are male but the individual develops as female, is known as "Differences in Sexual Development" (DSD). Belgian model Hanne Gaby Odiele is an example of DSD. As for why an underdeveloped testis during the embryonic stage can still result in a uterus, the embryonic testis secretes not only male hormones but also Anti-Müllerian hormone (AMH), which eliminates the Müllerian ducts that would otherwise develop into a uterus. Conversely, if the testes do not develop properly, AMH cannot be secreted normally, allowing the Müllerian ducts to form a uterus. Additionally, insufficient male hormones are produced, resulting in the individual lacking typical male internal and external genitalia. This explains why many female athletes, despite having XY chromosomes, still have a uterus and menstruation. Currently, there is no formal research indicating that the XY chromosome directly leads to differences in athletic ability. In fact, it's not just individuals with conditions like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or Cryptorchidism; there are also many individuals who are physiologically female but carry the XY chromosome. The belief that "having an XY chromosome means being male" is the truly unscientific and irrational stance.
Because you would practically exclude a human being from the possibility to compete within any sport category. It's basically a compassion vs truth dilemma. I think they could arrange special competitions allowing these athlets to compete against women and other competitions were they are excluded. But they don't do that because investigating on specific hormone disorders leads to privacy concerns and probably we are not ready for this
Why should an excellent athlete not get to play just because they aren’t within the norm? Should super tall men not get to play basketball because they have an advantage? Should men who have higher testosterone levels than the average men not be allowed to compete? Your argument makes no sense. Biological advantages are a part of sports, no reason to completely exclude someone for something they were born with and can literally not change
The Russian officials cheated to give a Russian boxer an unbroken record. The way your going many women will as athletes who work out and train rigorously daily would be disqualified giving Russia supremacy in boxing and all other sports. @@deleted01
The trans debate has muddied the waters for lay people regarding these sorts of issues. I never understood why activists leapt straight to "anyone can be any gender they like", when intersex conditions seemed more justifiable and would have expanded the general public's understanding of sex without having to make statements that just seemed bizarre and ridiculous on their face to a lay person
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
I will NEVER support the woke DEI/gender nonsense. Personality is not gender. Never was. "I identify as..." = " I pretend to be... and you should play along or else you are a bigot and t--phobe!" Sex is gender. Gender is sex. They're practically the same thing. Always have been. Always.
Yes, it was to be expected that people like Imane Khelif would become the victim of the trans-pushing the left has chosen and the similar ridiculuous pushback from reactionary conservatives. It's really sad. Not everything is equally fit to be fought out in public, like these rare DSD's.
First off, the reason is that they are trying to justify actual males as being female and vice versa. They use genetic mutants precisely in order to muddy the waters. Muddy water is the objective. Controversy, confusion and social discord is their aim. The aim of those who manufactured this agenda, that is. Not the victims who fell for the psyop and disfigured themselves as a result.
XY chromosomes gave them strength advantage in women sports. So on the basis of fairness alone they shouldn't be allowed to compete. However, they should compete in men sports as they share the same XY chromosomes. It doesn't matter what they identify, if Anthony Joshua identifies as a female you wouldn't allow him to compete in women boxing.
Here is the issue - they aren't men. They don't have the anatomy of men and aren't anywhere near men in terms of strength. In men sports they'd lose hard and be useless. In women's sports they are basically the equivalent of a steroid user in terms of performance. Like you don't have a solution either way, you aren't gonna have a fair situation either way.
It's not the chromosomes that confer strength advantage. If the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is inactive, the embryo will develop as fully female, no different to an XX female.
@@juvenalsdad4175 XY people with DSDs who don't benefit from testosterone don't become elite athletes. This is why it works to use xx as the inclusion requirement in women's sport.
No it's not clear, watch the video. Dsd is not gender dysphoria (which in turn is not this new pseudotrans fad, or "political transvestism" as I call it). I'm not saying dsd women can compete with other woman because they have a huge advantage, but they are not men either, genitalia may vary and some of them can have babies... So it's not that just because you are on YT you _have_ to give a simplistic answer🙂.
The vast majority of people that I have seen talking about this topic have had empathy for this person. 100% of them that I’ve watched have even called her a girl because she identifies that way which is what I would also call her. But when it comes to fairness in sports her feelings don’t matter. If you have XY chromosomes, you should not be able to compete against women. I’m sorry that the league allowed her to do this for so long and had her believing that what she was doing was OK. I Imagine it doesn’t feel very good to live your whole life as a woman, but then be disqualified because you aren’t biologically a woman. But that doesn’t change the fact that what she is doing is wrong and what the league is doing is wrong. She should identify as whatever she wants. But that doesn’t mean she gets to disrupt Fairplay for women just to appease one person that believes that they are a woman biologically.
The Olympic struggled with that issue for so many years. In 1999, they have decided not to proceed to test anymore unless there is a suspicion that an athlete, playing with the women, is really a biological male. In this instance, the IOC had turned an blind eye to the letters received from organisations having run testings and alarming them that this person is a biological male. The IOC had the authority to request a test to confirm prior testing, they decided, probably with the current ideology on gender in mind, to not do anything. The IOC has to address the situation and ban biological male. Athlete like Caster having the 5-ard should be ban in the women's category because they don't have anything in their body that is female.
Even if she has XY chromosomes, which I don't think we have clear evidence for, saying she is biologically a man is not a correct statement. We could potentially say she is chromosomally male, though just saying XY is more precise. Defining her entire gender on her chromosomes, however, is arbitrary. Gender can present along several different criteria; chromosomes, hormones, genitals, etc... there are women born with DSD that present very feminine and live their lives as women and calling the biological males due to their chromosomes is incredibly reductive and does not necessarily comport with their experiences.
I agree completely. I feel sad for someone like Imane. It doesn’t change the fact that she is physically at a much greater advantage and allowing her to compete completely defeats the purpose of have men and women categories.
Why many saying that XY athletes aiming to compete against XX athletes is unfair to disqualify... they should not. They just have to compete against other XY athletes. In other words: in the male group. No one wants to disqualify them from that. Yet they refuses. You should know why.
Be careful what you wish for. Could be used against your teams. Let me remind you that Brittney Griner of US women’s basketball has XY. She has Adam's apple. While in college, she broke an opposing player's nose in a fight.
The point is less about the Y-chromosome (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome excluded) than it is about years of development under the influence of an *anabolic steroid* (testosterone). In essence, years of doping.
That seems unrelated and not reported for these cases. At least, Khelif seems to have been rejected from an intnl. organization for being XY. This is critical data for the analysis.
@@juliobro1 The issue is that they are mistakenly identified as female at birth and then later go through male puberty (with internal testes instead of ovaries). It is going through male puberty and the development of bones/muscle through andogenization is the issue.
@@juliobro1 Of course it's related. It's doping. Google "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" and see why response to hormones is the determining factor in athletic performance.
With empathy for everyone involved. But, are the athletes in the crosshairs empathic to the women they're beating? It's one thing that they've been raised women, that they trained hard all their lives, dedicated as much time and effort as anyone else and are genuine about wanting to better themselves and achieve in their sports, but a developmental disorder unfairly throws all that into disarray and makes them a villain to some. It's another thing when/if they know full well they have an unfair advantage over their competition and they still go on, rather than bow out with some grace and show character, not only in that they'd acknowledge them participating would be unfair and even harmful to women, but that they are willing to give up that career path and settle for another where their disorder could still allow them to pursue their passion. Them being forced to quit is not fair to them, but them continuing to compete is not fair to their competition, but it is the sensible and fair thing to do for the fairness of sports. Although, where giants on the basketball court are concerned...well...luck of the draw in genetics, or an irregularity in development, again?
I agree. They knew they were men when they received the test results. They could be in denial, but they must have felt that they were different to girls growing up. They don’t have periods or breasts like women. They could be attracted to women. They would have felt that… I think they probably would not be surprised.
The female boxers know they're going to lose. Why step into the ring in the first place and give them the satisfaction of beating you up ? Their gold medals, outside their own countries, are going to be tainted. Hower, 'winning' by default because every women refused to fight them would result in worldwide humiliation.
If these boxers were 16 or 17 years old I may have some compassion but this algerian boxer is 25. They, the family, the coaches and the national team would have known for at least a decade that something was wrong as no menstruation and full masculisation at puberty became apparent.
@@laf4891 What are you talking about? The russians literally took Imane Khelif away for unspecified tests that didn't even check her testosterone. Then they told her she was disqualified because she had some sort of unfair advantage. And the russians then reinstated the russian boxer undefeated record.
There isn't any evidence or published lab test results indicating they have XY chromosomes. And the IBA hasn't provided any hard evidence. Imane Khelif beat an Russian boxer. So the IBA, which has links to GAZPROM, ran some tests. And the unspecified eligibility tests lead to Imane Khelifs disqualification. Thereby leading to the restoration of the Russian boxers undisputed record.
IBA cannot publish the results without the boxers consent. Also be aware that by questioning IBAs results you also are questioning the laboratory in Istanbul that provided the results. Also be aware that Imane had a chance to appeal the results with the costs of appealing almost completly covered but withdrew and chose not to. Also think about why the boxer never done the tests out of his own initiative. You can fact check all the info i gave you here.
And yet scrawny male boxers exist. Disqualifying women who were assigned female at birth and always lived as women is not "safety" or "fairness". If you don't want to get hurt, don't box.
Just like chromosomes, testosterone won't get you anywhere without the training. Athletic qualities are much more a question of training and general way of life than all other factors together.
The question I have, which wasn’t answered as far as I can tell, is whether these two athletes recently at the Olympics suffer from these specific developmental disorders or not. Is the reason the one athlete specifically was excluded from previous competition indeed because they have XY chromosomes?
They are perfectly healthy. This is cheating. They are in fact biological men. Sports is a privilege not a right. Life isn't fair. Nature is cruel. This is Marxist identity politics dividing people being by manipulating those controlled by irrationality seeking to feel good about themselves via virtue. Vladimir Lenin called them useful idiots. This is Marxism 101. Google Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals. Obama and Hillary Clinton worshipped the guy. The objective is authoritarianism, the road map, the play book is Rules for Radicals, identity politics, and oppressor/oppressed narratives.
It’s not clear because it’s private information. If you get tested for anything, e.g. COVID, HIV, or any disease or disorder, your doctor is legally not allowed to divulge information to others without your permission. The IBA can say they were disqualified because they didn’t meet the requirement for inclusion in the female category, which was to be genetically XX. They cannot divulge the exact results.
@@bfarzady5212 It's unlikely. When sporting bodies say "high testosterone" it normally means testosterone within the normal male range, meaning the athlete is XY. Whenever you hear that term, you can be pretty sure they are referring to a male athlete.
By definition, a man has XY chromosomes, and, most importantly, a female has XX chromosomes. Genetic abnormalities in the XY chromosome can cause some men to develop female characteristics and grow up identifying and feeling like females. While there's nothing inherently wrong with this, they are still biologically men with female traits and, crucially, not females. There is clearly confusion when MEN with these genetic abnormalities are considered females at birth, But this is a social issue apart from science and sports, it doesn't change the fact that these men are not physiological females.
@@astralisranger517can Imane get pregnant? If so, that would mean that her body is organized around the production of eggs and she would be female, by ultimate definition.
@@astralisranger517no. If you’re thinking about XY women which is swyer syndrome. They are female because theoretically they may have a uterus but no gonads. If by egg donation then they can probably carry a pregnancy and that is a female only role in biology.
No person with XY chromosomes should fight anyone with XX chromosomes. Doesn't matter male or female. It's not fair and it's not safe. Imane Khelif is aware of the advantages and that is despicable. Safety first. Always.
Women's safety in a combat sport like boxing -- assuming a level playing field -- is a bit absurd. The sport is high risk and the likelihoid of permanent impairment is almost a certainty.
It's funny to me that people suddenly care about safety in a field where it is about who can punch the other one the hardest. If one cares about safety boxing is the last place to go, wether you are man, woman, or whatever.
all we need to know is that they have XY chromosomes and this causes them to have higher testosterone in the range of regular males. This is a huge advantage to XY chromosome holders, so they should either have their own league or just fight other men, its quite simple.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
many normal XX females have higher than normal testosterone levels as well...this gives them the same, not more, advantage as this boxer has...and they are not banned.
@@dee5105Knock, knock, elevated testosterone in women is not on any level of a man. A man with low testosterone still has more than a woman with elevated levels.
@@nefaristo Sorry but no XY person has ever had a baby in the history of humanity. An XY adult (with or without DSD) has no uterus and neither could one be created for them by any medical procedure. They have no cervix, no fallopian tubes and there is nowhere for their foetus to gestate assuming that they could conceive which they cannot. They cannot menstruate. They cannot produce an ovum (ie. large immobile gamete) because they have no ovaries. Fertilisation is not possible since they can only produce tiny gametes (male sperm) which cannot reproduce with other male gametes. Women menstruate, gestate new human beings and go through the menopause. They will all, if they live long enough, do at least two of these three things. Men can do none of them.
@nefaristo if they have a uterus, they have XX chromosomes... never XY!!! Because the Y chromosome has one job: create a penis and testicules. It is pretty simple. #SaveWomensSports
@@nefaristo By "have babies," do you mean get pregnant? I don't think so. To my knowledge, no XY person has ovaries that produces eggs. (I'm not arguing with your main point, just this detail.)
@@nefaristo Its hilarious how spineless youtubers/women and feminist minded men fail miserably at this topic. When DNA is conclusive REPRODUCIBLE science, THEN, there is reproductive endocrinology, THEN there is bone density AND pelvic bone differences. As soon as this pointlessly rambling woman said "some people" and not the under 2% of the population, you knew she is just milking a video title and not actually explaining anything everyone already knows. And of course women then can't understand that these men, strangely COMPETING AT THE OLYMPICS, ARE ONLY DOING SO, DUE TO THEIR PHYSICAL ADVANTAGES. This is pathetic.
Good explanation. The problem is that physical advantage in sport isn’t limited to xy chromosomes. For instance taller people tend to do better in most sports so should we categorise by height in order to be ‘fair’? Let’s face it, the primary reason that this issue has blown up to this extent this year is the anti-trans rhetoric promoted by the same kind of people who have spouted an anti-gay agenda in the past or anti any other minority. It’s just the latest target of haters.
how fun to have all players exactly the same height weight skill level too? Some people are naturally athletic with bodies wonderfully suited to certain sports some of us have to work hard to get at that level. But at the starting line its all male or all female.
The only practical solution seems, to me, to be to scrap "male" sport, as a defined category and change it to "open". Anyone can freely compete in those events. Then have "female" sports with suitably strict parameters.
That would not change anything at all, because there are no physical sports in which women can compete with men. So the "Open" division would be exactly the same as the Mens" division is now.
According to a statement from IOC, Yu-Ting Lin is a girl, the daughter of Taiwan!! The IBA’s recognition was withdrawn by the IOC in 2023 following its suspension in 2019. The withdrawal of recognition was confirmed by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).
Much as I sympathize with people who are dissatisfied with the bodies they were born with - much as I understand how someone might feel so strongly about it that they are willing to undergo painful and difficult surgery, hormone therapy, psychotherapy, etc. in order to make their bodies feel more comfortable - the procedures do not change their gender. If you've got XY chromosomes, that's never going to change. And that makes a difference in your athletic abilities. It is unreasonable to expect people with XX chromosomes to pretend that someone with the Y chromosome who is trans is somehow now equivalent to them. There is a difference, and it matters. I don't know of a way to get around this problem, but forcing XX people to compete with XY people in athletics is not the answer.
When you have XY Chromosomes it indicates and confirms you are a male, females do not and cannot have XY chromosomes. This guy's extremely high testosterone levels indicate he has his testicles in his abdomen. Even males born with a normal penis occasionally have concealed testicles in their abdomen, this condition can sometimes be corrected with an operation. This vid is probably the best explanation of what this guy is about, and yes if he has XY chromosomes he is a guy.
In Seyer Syndrome they do not have testes. They have undeveloped gonads called “streak gonads” and that is why, despite having some variation of female reproductive anatomy.
This issue is actually quite complex. Before 1968, athletes had to undergo external physical examinations to confirm their gender. Yes, this meant undressing for inspectors! This method was simple but completely violated the athletes' privacy. Later, the Olympics introduced chromosome testing to check whether athletes had XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes. This might sound straightforward, but there were still many issues. For example, some individuals have a Y chromosome, but due to inactive gene segments, their bodies exhibit female characteristics and function entirely as female. This condition is known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Because chromosome testing isn't entirely accurate, testosterone testing is now mostly used.
@@Idawu-l4s Testosterone testing is fine, the problem is females also produce testosterone but not in the same amount as males. 'Inactive gene segments'? If you have 'Y' chromosomes then then you are reproducing 'Y' chromosomes. Females do not have active or inactive 'Y' chromosomes.
@@Idawu-l4s incorrect. the (uninvasive, quicjk and cheap) cheek swab chromosome test is fine in almost all cases. where there is an abnormailtity indicated further testing is appropriate. This ould be rare. If the IOC reintroduced sex tests it would be vanishingly rare.
But she's wrong in the most fundamental way. They are cheating because they are biological men competing against women. If I raise my little boy as a girl should he get to play women's sports? Hell no. The only difference is their balls aren't hanging down. This is irrational illogical and insanity. Sports especially the Olympics are not a right but a privilege. Life is cruel and not fair. Nature is cruel. Like when schools say an entire school full of girls have to shut up and be quiet so one boy with a psychological condition, because that's what trans is, can use the girls locker room and restrooms. That's insanity. Since when do hundreds of girls lose their rights to make one kid happy? In what world is that rational or fair? Let that kid use the teachers lounge or principal's office restroom. Sorry if they feel different. They are different.
Just keep it simple. XX is female and XY is male. We understand that some individuals develop in unusual ways. The Olympic criteria is not appropriate. The two men are both xy. They can never be accused of being blamed as a credit to their male (xy) gender. XX is female and XY is male - is simplest, most accurate biologically and why change to cause all this confusion- putting women (Xx) at risk? XX and XY tests are straightforward and are the most meaningful - as they define female and male in biology
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
This issue is actually quite complex. Before 1968, athletes had to undergo external physical examinations to confirm their gender. Yes, this meant undressing for inspectors! This method was simple but completely violated the athletes' privacy. Later, the Olympics introduced chromosome testing to check whether athletes had XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes. This might sound straightforward, but there were still many issues. For example, some individuals have a Y chromosome, but due to inactive gene segments, their bodies exhibit female characteristics and function entirely as female. This condition is known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Because chromosome testing isn't entirely accurate, testosterone testing is now mostly used.
@@Idawu-l4s You put aside the fact that people with DSD "5-ard" like Caster has nothing female, that should be taken into consideration. If someone fails the XX test, more investigation should be conducted. 5-ard competing in the women's category are way more represented in the Olympics than in the society in general. It's very well known in the coaching world that when you can put your hand on an individual with that condition, the women's medals are for your athlete.
Boxing is a physical contact sports where you hit your opponents head, even men vs men can cause some serious damage so just imagine these fighter with a testosterone of a man hitting a pure woman imagine what serious damage it can cause.
Right, because every village in Algeria has top grade genetic testing centers. Right next to the mosque I hear. And Amad will check your test too. Right after he cheek swabs you and checks your SV02 max.
@@robertkeaney9905 Back in May of 2023 the IBA notified them that they had been disqualified from the World Boxing Championship for failing a gender test. They knew they had lost out on a chance to win $200,000 for gold, $100K for silver, or $50K for bronze for that tournament, and that they would never be allowed to box in an IBA sponsored fight again. Lin did not appeal the decision at all, while Khelif did take his case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ... but then withdrew the appeal shortly after. They walked away from a huge part of their careers because they both knew they would lose their appeals. They probably have known since they were little children that they were not "normal" biological women.
So much concern about fairness only when there are advantages in women's sports. Male sports applaud those advantages especially biological advantages. And if there was an unfairness because some women have testosterone, then Imane or any other woman like her would have perfect streaks and no one would ever beat them, and that is not the case. These athletes work for their skills, biological advantages are nothing without putting in work. And it further degrades the other women that compete against them and win. This whole thing is the IBA making a fuzz because they were expelled from the IOC back in 2019 for bad management, ties to Russian mafia, and other sketchy shit, they should not be viewed as trust worthy.
I don't understand why the IOC could not make a simple chromosome test themselves when they did not accept the one by IBA. Get the facts straight and act upon them! It is not fair to women if they have to compete against physical males.
Female people with DSDs tend to be affected in such a way that they can never be elite athletes. It's just a few male DSDs that result in no physical ailments & enable those with them to be athletes. Especially 5 ARD, mentioned in the video- there was a famous 800m women's race where the first three places were taken by three XY athletes with 5 ARD.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
The so-called 'Paris Boxing Unit' of the IOC was an absolute disgrace with no standards regarding entry for female boxing and boxing judges, investigated and noted regarding corruption at the 2016 Rio Olympics invited back.
There's no debate here. It's impossible to debate with people determined to twist reality to serve their own ends. You call them out and do whatever is necessary to counter their evil intentions.
@@ahahaha3505 I mentioned the GRA to make the obvious illustration that a passport is meaningless. I know of someone the DSD. They were ‘assigned female at birth and on birth certificates etc.. This is while knowing of the DSD condition. Still a man. A tragic story for all concerned.
You have to draw the line somewhere. The exception cannot be the rule. It's unfortunate for them, but we're talking about .01% of the population and probably about 1% of those aim for Olympic level sports. Early lesson in life I taught my kids, life isn't fair. If it was, I'd be a pro hockey player... I play sports at my level. Not against 12 year old kids or women (unless it's for everyone's fun of course).
They are .01% of the population, but the percentage of them winning in women's sports is WAY WAY higher than that. I mean, BOTH the women winning gold in their weight classes are DSD (XY chromosomes.) Both the women dominating this race for the #1 and #2 spots have XY chromosomes: ua-cam.com/video/pImKTAmfXuM/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared . Despite this condition being extremely rare, it is not extremely rare at the top of elite women's sports. And that is the problem. It's not fair. XX women will never be able to break the records set by these intersex and trans women with biologically male bodies.
Some background. IBA got support financially from Russia for years. The Russian state oil company is IBA's sponsor. Current IBA president Umar Kremlev is a friend of Vladimr Putin. When the re-election of IBA president was organized 2022, Umar Kremlev simply disqualified all challengers (sounds familiar?), so he was the only person to be "elected". IBA received a lot of sponsorship from Russia's state owned natural gas companies. When the freeworld sanctioned athletes from Russia and Belarus for Russia 's invasion of Ukraine, IBA allowed Russian and Belarussian boxers to represent their countries in IBA matches. All of the EU and allies boycotted IBA's match. IBA was disqualifed as a body for organizing boxing matches for boxers that will enter the Olympic games by IOC in 2019. Imane Khelif participated in a tournament by IBA and defeated another contestent Azalia Amineva - and she is Russian, a rising boxing star who was never defeated until defeated by Khelif - then as soon as Amineva was defeated, Khelif was singled out for "testing" (whatever that means, IBA still refuses to disclose what exactly were tested, the procedures etc.). IBA also contradicted their own statements: first they said they never tested the testosterone levels of Lin nor Khelif, then in recent press conference, IBA spokespersons suddenly claimed that their levels of testosterone were what and what. Just connect the dots. The same thing also occurred to Lin, because Lin be fighting the same Azalia Amineva at the IBA tournament where Khelif was stripped of her bronze medal. IBA did not test all the participants for "gender eligibility" but targetted a handful without disclosing the rationale.
@@yellowlynx I'm not sure whether insinuations of corruption are important here. It doesn't really matter what the motivation for the IBA is, only whether they were correct about the gender test. A bad guy making a good point doesn't make the bad guy any better or the point any worse. The athletes could clear this up overnight by having an independent gender test performed. I'm sure the IOC would allow that. Would it suck to be in their position - of course. But they're in this position already and don't have a time machine to change any of it, so it's something of a moot point. I really have sympathy for them. For some sports like clay pigeon shooting it makes no difference what gender they are. For others, like track and field events, it really does matter but at least nobody gets hurt. For boxing it really matters and the stakes are high. Physics has to trump fashionable culture wars, and physics doesn't care about feelings.
Some background. The tests were done twice and independent labs in 2 different countries. The CAS have accepted the testing and the results. Soeme men are so keen to watch men beating up women they will invent all sorts of rubbish to try to disgusie teh truth.
@@AeronwenTrewent IBA failed to disclose the test protocols (not the results of individuals) when asked multiple times. For any people wo have an ounce of knowledge in lab testings, the protocols will reveal if the tests are reliable or not. Instead they simply deflect and even sugested that Taiwan is part of China. If you said that there's nothing political, you are blilnd. Lin Yu-Ting was born as a girl and she started boxing since 13 yo for 15 years, and if Lin was a man, where is that maculine body ? If Lin was a man, the Polish girl won't even last a round.
I’m looking for a lot of evidence to support her gender, even scientists says that XY chromosome is not only standard for gender, even DSD have no scientific proof that she have any difference with normal females , science shows that we can only measure athlete’s Testosterone levels to ensure the game is fair, and that is exactly what I.O.C do. If you guys really wanna talk about those little details then we should talk about every single differences between everyone, then those greatest athletes are not going to participate, and we should just fight mirrors. Anyway I’m not blindly supporting her, if it’s really not fair to other women, then we should make a new rules for them, but we don’t have any evidence, so I rather protecting the person who might be innocent, seeing all these more reasonable comments make me less anxiety.
I feel bad for these athletes. I am sure they started training and pouring their life into the sport before they knew that they were men. Then at puberty (which is hard enough) they find they have this life altering condition. Do we expect a young teenager to make the right decision at this point? After all the sunk cost? And when they know that for all the drawbacks of their condition the one good thing is that it gives them a winning advantage? It is up to the governing boards to be the adults in the room. Also note that while the board was aiming for inclusion, what they gave these athletes was publicising their most private and embaressing personal infomation to be mocked all over the internet.
@@rogerjohnson2562 no of course not. I am only addressing the hate directed at the individual. I believe critisism should more rightly be directed at the governing board...
@@Guy-Lewis It's an interesting idea. But are there enough people with these rare disorders to compete against each other? Also you would need an audiance interested in seeing the competitions.
I was at your point until I realized, that they ABSOLUTELY know that they're male. At least since puberty. They're gaming the system and in some countries they're actively seeked out by scouts for athletic careers. Bc every trained mediocre male will beat every woman in almost every sport. In the meantime Kaster Semenya has fathered children. They know.
i would add despite parents raising the child as a girl initially, they would have to know by puberty that something was wrong. It's why we always find these athletes representing poor countries, being unable to investigate medically lack of menstruation and masculinisation at puberty. Thats at best. Cynics claim coaches actively look for DSD males to compete as women.
This as a sensible and cogent summary. On a pragmatic level, however, do we take into account the devastating emotional impact to DSD individuals who come from remote and sometimes impoverished circumstances and are unaware of these nuances of biology and then humiliate and stigmatize them mid-games on the world stage in front of their countrt men? Who will assume liability for this?
Well, in the case of DSD 5-ard, the transformation of the body into male can't be ignored by the person at around 12 yo. So the devastating emotional impact would be feel at that age. I blame the athletic world to allow this to happen as they know the issue very well and have decided not to address it.
It's really harsh what she is going through, just she happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. If she had competed 5 years ago no one would have cared, she would have been just a woman with a lot of muscle. It's not fair to use her as a soccer ball in a culture war.
He will have known he is male since puberty or probably before. He still gets in teh ring and beats up women. I have no sympathy for any man who does this.
@@ouwebrood497 Heis male and is punching women. If you dont care about men have a far stronger punch and women having thinner skulls you are complicit..
Excellent explainer. Just the right detail. Grateful for your work. Your mic was off axis so the audio was a bit thin. You can see it in the video too, as the side of the mic faces the camera, and thus your narration. Thanks again, and I apologize if you know the audio issue already. Best regards.
Excellent explanation but she is wrong about one thing, it is cheating because they are in FACT biological males. Life isn't fair. People are born blind, deaf, crippled, etc. They don't get to have a normal life. Playing sports, being in the Olympics, those are not rights, but privileges. Suck's for them, but nature can be cruel. Life isn't fair. They should be grateful they are healthy. But the reality and truth is they are biological men and they have no business competing again girls and women. Period. It's insane we even need to have this conversation. Normal rational people understand this. It's science. The only reason it's an issue is the western world is being taken over by Marxist elites hell bent on destroying capitalism and democracy with oppressor/oppressed narratives and identity politics. The irony is this is Paris, the birthplace of Post Modernism which spawned critical theory which states there is no objective reality. The post-modernists were atheist Marxists philosophers. Every Communist revolution uses identity politics and oppressor/oppressed narratives to brainwash people especially those most easily manipulated via emotions, empathy, and virtue, which is evil. We had the Cold War and a century of global war because self righteous virtuous Russian and German Jews from the Manhattan Project thought the world would be a better place if America and Russia had the bomb. Fifty years of global destruction and chaos and over 100 million dead due to Communism was the product of their virtue. And we're still paying the price with all the conflict caused by the Cold War, including Middle Eastern conflict, China, and North Korea.
It was incredibly challenging to find someone who could explain everything to me with precise information. Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes and testosterone levels that an XX woman would never reach, but was identified as female at birth due to a genetic anomaly. As a result, she was raised as a girl
"Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes and testosterone levels that an XX woman would never reach" ... From where do you have that information? I have not found that officially stated anywhere. Just random people on social media.
@@ouwebrood497 Do you live under a rock? IBA (thru Dr. Filippatos) has revealed what those tests were (karyotyping). IBA even went further to reveal which 2 laboratories did the tests. Imane and Lin can easily end the issue by voluntarily revealing the test results but they refuse to do it. Shocker! (sarcasm)
What you said is pointless because the IBA has no evidence to prove whether LIN is XY or XX. The IBA has only unilaterally announced that LIN is XY, but LIN has repeatedly provided scientific proof of her female identity during competitions. If the IBA or anyone else relies solely on the IBA's verbal accusations, can I accuse anyone present, or any contestant, of competing with an incorrect gender without providing any evidence? This is the greatest insult to the person involved. If you are making ignorant accusations from behind a screen, influencers are merely seeking to gain traffic, and the IBA has achieved its dirty goal. Naturally, the IOC must defend its athletes with evidence; otherwise, the IOC is merely helping the IBA bully the accused contestants. During a public press conference, when asked by reporters to provide evidence that LIN is XY, the IBA only responded crudely by saying Taiwan is a part of China. Can’t you see it yet? Who are these manipulators, and what are their motives?
THERE IS NO SOLUTION. The dilemma is the following: you could put XY5ARD into the men's category, but their lack of DHT means that their bone strength is somewhere between male and female, which should be no problem for Caster, but could be devastating for boxers like Imane, who could get their bones broken. Having their own category is not very practical. The incidence of XY5ARD is very rare (1 in 90,000 births), and so you would struggle to make up a team to send to the Olympics. And please, it's highly unlikely to be XY AIS, because that DSD leads to a feminised morphology. They are all XY5ARD.
There is a video interview of Lin Yuting when she was a child (junior high school student). Boys and girls in junior high schools in Taiwan have different uniforms. She is indeed a little girl. ua-cam.com/video/XDrW-0lIpK4/v-deo.html
Shame on the Olympic games? Why? Imane Khelif was disqualified by an russian run organization after beating an russian boxer. Using unspecified tests, that the russians refuse to elaborate on. And this whole rumor mill has been stoked by the russians because they are pissed that the IBA because they are mad that the IOC took over olympic boxing from them.
@@灰階the problem is she had xy chromosome and higher testosterone an attributes of a man which can cause serious damage against pure woman in a physical brutal contact sport of boxing
While I appreciate that you attempted to explain DSD, this is not an explain of this controversy given that the water is much deeper than DSD. First, there is no clear evidence even from IBA to show the two athletes have Y chromosome. While the IBA claimed that it is because the confidential reason per their origins countries’ boxing association requested, this is proofed a FALSE claim from the Taiwanese boxing association at least. Second, not all of the female athlete have gone through the test IBA used to disqualify the two athletes. Before the start of the competition, both athletes passed the examination. During the competition, both of them got sudden blood draw requests and informed that no matter whether they agree to do the tests, they will be disqualified. This additional test was not done for all athletes. During the interview a few days ago, IBA representative cannot even explain what type of test it is except saying it is not a standard testosterone test. If this test from IBA is not a standard test for IBA but IBA thinks it is so important to disqualify an athlete’s qualification, shouldn’t it be done to ALL athletes? Additionally, if the new hidden test is so important for deciding the qualification, shouldn’t the IBA explain what type of tests should be done, the science related to it, put new rules upfront, test before the competition, and make it a normal standard to all boxing game? Third, many diseases were unknown until the technology catching up. The two athletes followed the current rules to show their qualifications. Thus, they should be respected as a qualified athletes no matter what situation it is. Even if in the future the standards need to be shifted, the blame or discussion should go to the system not the atheists. As a biologist, I would also support that we need a better standard to avoid potential unfairness from extreme case such as some, if not all, transgender in adulthood cases to attend female competition and more research should be done to draw the line. However, at the same time, there is no reason to cyber bully or on-stage bully any athletes who have shown their qualifications in the current system. The current wave is a total witch-hunt and a extremely unfair punch down from mega-influencers to hard-working athletes. As you also suggested in this video, a better standard is needed to be discussed. However, so many people now is just judging the appearing of the two athletes doesn’t LOOK LIKE a women with the westerner beauty standard, and many players are losing their sportsmanship by following the crowds without even try to understand the situation. At least for Lin’s case, I know the fact that athletes who have trained with her have witness her hanging there training while her energy and observable symptoms looked Iike she was experiencing periods, which is not something would happen for a DSD patient. Though only Lin knows whether she ever has period, this is not going to be a key for her qualification in competing 2024 Olympics nor an excuse for other athletes being disrespectful to or humiliating her on stage after losing the game. Finally, given the most important thing is to discuss the standard, I would want to throw out some questions to think about: If chromosomes became the key test rather than hormones, isn’t that means XYY or related disorders should also be discussed in attending male’s competition, too? Should all gender exams at birth for all countries who attend sports games change from judging appearance than the test chromosome for EVERY SINGLE BABY in case a “disqualified” kid accidentally go on the sport career? Is testing chromosome really a more fair way for competition? And does every athlete standing there right now (including those two signing X at the end of the game to Lin and all other no sportsmanship athletes we saw this time) really know their own chromosome gender to disrespect athletes they thinks as sus? Stop witch-hunt, respect to all already qualified athletes, and focus on discussing the potential changes to the standards for the future without targeting any person are the most important three things.
so who are you? they have tested XY twice, and u know that very well. Tests from turkey 22 arrived late, before that covid. should be very easy for the Ioc/ them two boxers to take a swap Dna test..? but no, this is politics, also for you. Let men beat women in the ring. They had even support financially to go to the CAS. But they knew they would fail and loose again. Shame and pityful. Iba is Swissbased, and have members all over, they are protecting women's safety. why should they come to Paris? To show how Ioc is doing things, and the woke journalists from ex BBC.
IBA never reveal what type of test they did to both the athletes and the public. They only send out a note to the athletes implying them do not have XX chromosome without sharing the test results nor the test name to the athletes. No need to mention that this unknown blood test was done only on 4 hand-pick out of 26 athletes during the game. If the collecting process is not standard and fair, how can the claims based on them become convincing? In addition, Olympics got rid of chromosome tests for both scientific and human right reasons. One example is Ewa Kłobukowska who was accused to have "one chromosome too many" and almost resulting her suicide. She didn't received any apology even after she gave birth to her son. If one wants to change or add tests to re-assess the qualification for a competition, that should be a science discussion to the system such as IOC and IBA rather than targeting on specific athletes and call them cheating. Moreover, if chromosome should be such a critical standards, why male athletes don't need to go through this type of exam? How are we going to deal with XYY case in male competition? Both Lin and Khelif had gone through the exams for IOC and were invited to Olympics, so they should at least be respected as a qualified athletes. If there one have any problem, it should be the discussion of how to use current knowledge or tools to define a fair competition for the future. Unfortunately, what I seeing so far are most, if not all, cyber bullying targeting on the athletes. For example, calling them man despite they were born and live their whole life as women, calling them cheating or beating women without any convincing evidence to show they are men under current scientific or sports gender regulation, calling them don't LOOK LIKE women despite the standard solely base on Western beauty standard, calling them "too strong or too tall to be a woman" despite many other athletes in the ring with them were more muscular than them and many women IRL are taller than them. They have taken their responsibility to match the current regulation and science understanding to show they are qualified Olympic plays, so they didn't cheat and it was a fair game in the current era. They should get the respect they deserved not the current cyber bully and discrimination. If there is anything should be changed, it should be a discussion outside of them. Beside, few, if not none, of the country use chromosome test to decide a baby's gender, so most, if not all, female athletes in this Olympic probably don't know their chromosome type, too. Are you sure all other "female athletes" are actually the "women" in your imagination? Finally, who am I? I am a biologist who stands for all human rights, wants a fair game, cannot stands for cyber bully, and knows both languages so I can understand and critical thinks for evidence from both sides. The english community is highly bias to saying from one side with a ton of statements are targeting on the athletes who did nothing wrong. I also agree that with current technology, we may all need to find a new way to decide what is a good matching for sport competition, however, cyber bullying people who play games honestly with current system is not the way to go. I really hope can see it and start talking about the science rather than trying to push another suicide causing by unreasonable bullying to individuals.
So an XY woman (identified from birth) has biological advantages over xx women when competing in many sports. But isn’t that also the case for some who has other genetic advantages. For example, certain racial groups have a genetic predisposition that allows them to run faster or be physically stronger. In objecting to an XY woman taking advantage of her biological advantage, shouldn’t we also be insisting, in the name of fairness, that all competitors have no genetic advantage. Of course that’s ridiculous. The truth is, that we can’t and shouldn’t be cherry picking one set of advantages over another.
We don't put tall muscular women in the male category, nor the short slim men in the female category. It's not a matter of strenght, shape, race, sexuality, preferences, life style... it's a distinction based on a biological difference and the only fair thing to do. If you can apply you do, if you have conditions that don't allow you to, you cannot. In this olympics is been established that a male's right to play a sport is more important than the female's right to not risk their life. And yes, intersex are not women... or they would be women already
Lin Yu-ting is a real woman; she was born female and has practiced boxing since middle school. The IBA website did not show any test information about who conducted the test on Lin. The IBA only provided the minutes from the board meeting, without explaining how she failed. The IBA was stripped of its recognition by the IOC long ago due to issues with referee fairness and financial management. Additionally, Lin Yu-ting did not always win in her matches; she lost to Nesthy Petecio in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics and was eliminated in the Round of 16.
Try asking Imane and Lin to provide it then. Until now they refuse to even talk about it. It would very easily end this issue. But they don't want to. I wonder why ... IBA cannot provide details of it due to medical confidential info and private personal data laws.
@@YzgraDPVZ2 According to the Associate Press, "The IBA still refused to disclose nearly all details about the tests and their results or methodologies leading to the disqualifications of Khelif of Algeria and Lin of Taiwan". They won't even share their methodology 🤦♂️
IBA have used privacy as an excuse to refuse to provide evidence. All accusations are only one-sided. Moreover, they have been removed from the IOC and are not authoritative. People choose to believe that, they are not Think it's unreasonable?
Thankyou for clarifying this for everybody to understand. I knew this but whenever I comment on any of the videos that demonise these people I’m called woke at best. I have given up reacting but I find the discussion on UA-cam so disgusting.
In the women's-football-team of Zambia play 3 men, the most famous is Barbra Banda, who was denied by Real Madrid, now playing in the woke US. Banda was banned from the last African Cup, but allowed for the World-Championship & the Olympics. This is ridiculous. But women seem to need male competition.
Yes, IOC and many international federations eligibility to compete against women is based only on passport...and I know where it's going. African genetic women will be excluded from sports. All you need to make money is a man, a fake birth certificate, passport and a backstory about hardship. Stupid, woke Westerners will buy it.
@@AeronwenTrewent If You are right, election results would be different. The smashed Italian fermale boxer defended her male counterpart. You see, women want to be hit & trashed by men. It is their desire for brutal machos.
The Olympics is about competing on a level playing field and this is the reason for anti-doping requirements. The IOC is making a serious judgment error in allowing those queers to compete.
UA-cam is overflowing with influencers who are railing against these boxers and categorizing them as cheaters and straight up men. Many of the video titles are some version of MEN PUNCHING WOMEN or MEN GOING FOR GOLD IN WOMEN'S BOXING. It is very refreshing to see a video wherein the actual scientific possibilities are shown, without vitriol. There is no need to chase these boxers up a hill with torches, they are simply competitors. They could not compete as men at this level because they clearly do not have standard male physiology. This woman is correct that something should be done differently, because the boxers do have an advantage. But she correctly opines that this is a very difficult situation, with no easy answer. Anyone who says there is afn easy answer just doesn't understand what all is involved. There are not enough athletes with this condition to field a separate category, and the athletes with this condition have both an unfair advantage over women, and an unfair disadvantage to men. One point that literally nobody is making is that the test results that showed XY chromosomes for these boxers was published by Russia, via the IBA. Even if you don't consider all of the lies and propaganda coming out of Russia in it's illegal war on Ukraine, a look at Russias record of cheating in international athletics should raise question as to whether or not the reported test results are accurate at all.
"But she correctly opines that this is a very difficult situation, with no easy answer. " -- Not true. It is not difficult at all. Saying that DSD is "difficult" implies that there is a "third sex" when there is NONE. It's a simple matter really: If you have the Y, then you are guy. No exceptions. If you are XY with DSD, then you are a man with DSD. Simple. Woke gender fans simply LOVE to sow chaos.
IT IS AN EASY ANSWER. Take the Dna test, give the experts the result, so they can look at it .Dont divert this Ioc. Because of holding back the obvious XY results, both boxers and the Ioc looks like cheats. Like its political or something. U cannot identify as a women and box other XX females, simple as.
Everyone keeps saying that this is a complex issue, and to be kind and empathetic. How about we be kind and empathetic to the women not just being beaten up by these men, but losing their places and medals and dreams to them too. It isn't complex. They're male, but may not have realised. We'll they've known since May 2022, and now we do too. Get them out.
Actually, they were unaware during the 2022 competition. They were informed halfway through the event that they had failed the test and were disqualified by the IBA. However, the IBA did not provide evidence of their disqualification before or after the incident. If athletes are not informed of their disqualification, how can they prove they meet the qualifications? After the competition, the athletes underwent re-testing, but the IBA did not accept the results and refused to provide the previous test results. You can check the IBA press conference from a few days ago-I find it very strange.
@user-tx7zy7so1d According to what I read about the condition, most people know either at birth due to the genitals and/or hormone tests, or at puberty due to going through a male puberty. Very rarely, someone finds out when they can't get pregnant, but there are other signs before then. These two were highly likely aware well before any world competitions.
@@5BReiningHorses Regarding Lin Yu-ting, in Taiwan, every person’s ID number indicates their gender, and hers is listed as female. She has participated in international competitions for over 15 years, and these competitions certainly require gender testing. Her tests over the past decade have shown no issues. The IBA claimed at the recent press conference that her testosterone levels were too high, but the IBA had previously stated that they did not test for testosterone during the competition two years ago. Since they did not test for testosterone previously, why are they now publicly declaring her to be male?
@@Idawu-l4s Both were allowed to challenge the disqualification in appeal. One didn't bother, they other stopped the appeal. They may have learn from Caster that if you appeal the decision, you condition will be known and you won't be able to pretend again...
You only need to look at their physical appearance. Women just don’t build the same muscle size and shape that males do. Even their faces are incredibly masculine.
Thank you, this was very informative and succinctly explained a complex situation. When the dust settles, it will be interesting to see who is willing to show some humility. So many armchair "experts" are either convinced that "they are men", simply because they supposedly have XY chromosomes, or that "they are biological women" simply because they were socialized that way (in a conservative Muslim country that makes no accommodation for intersex people!). Those of us "in the middle" are trying to bridge this divide and acknowledge that even if they are intersex, they are human beings too and are not cheating even if they have an advantage over women with XX chromosomes and no androgenic conditions. But the fact of the matter is NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE! The IBA is not releasing the lab results, perhaps because of confidentiality agreements, or their own corruption. This can't be dismissed, certainly not after watching the IBA press conference today (Monday, Aug. 5th) which was far from confidence inspiring. Furthermore, the IOC doesn't do any kind of chromosomal gender testing, and their track record of foot-dragging and passing-the-buck on this issue is pathetic. The XX women runners at the London, Rio and Tokyo Olympics who lost medals to DSD XY46 runners in the 200m and 800m events have never been acknowledged or compensated even after World Athletics changed their policies in 2023. So we'll never know. We take it on confidence that these boxers are intersex based on IBA statements with no proof and that has initiated a whole series of reactions and polemics. But what if it really is just a Russian hoax?
Intersex is sort of a misleading term. One is either male or female. IOC needs to bring back the cheek swab. If these boxers have testicles then they will be producing testosterone.
*At the press conference* Reporter: "The IBA has not provided evidence of their disqualification before or after the incident. If athletes are not informed of their disqualification, how can they prove they meet the qualifications?" IBA: "I love China, I often go to China, China is one of my favorite countries." How interesting.
IBA have used privacy as an excuse to refuse to provide evidence. All accusations are only one-sided. Moreover, they have been removed from the IOC and are not authoritative. People choose to believe that, they are not Think it's unreasonable?
@4mins…”There’s no easy answer that makes everybody happy” I didn’t know making everybody happy was even possible never mind actually trying to do so. Maybe it’s just me but creating a society that accommodates every single person that might have some extremely rare disfunction, at the expense of someone who doesn’t, isn’t exactly fixing anything.
@pighead5225 someone with XX could be presenting as a man; they would have zero chance of reaching elite level in boxing or almost any sport against biological men.
Shouldn't be complex. It's a simple case of athletes gaming the system. The real problem is politics. The rules are simple; males compete with males, females compete with males. If you are an outlier, there needs to either be a policy to deal with that. Until then, you can't compete. The answer is never to put a person with an advantage due to their biological sex, in the ring with a person who does not. It's the core of why biological men and women don't compete.
The Olympic Games are an incredibly stressful contest for every athlete. Discriminating against a woman based on unfounded rumors about her chromosomes only makes things worse. If we allow this, we’d have to require every athlete to undergo chromosomal exams before competing-a ridiculous idea that goes against the very spirit of the Olympics. The IBA’s baseless claims appear to be rooted in their bad reputation and corruption, turning these allegations into mere rumors. The controversy stirred up by JK, who spread these rumors, is not an act of wisdom but of foolishness. Adding to this, it’s telling that athletes who were bullied in the same event four years ago faced no such questioning, but now that they have a chance to win, they are suddenly targeted. This is clearly a political act that further proves the IBA’s corruption.
I find it frustrating you don’t get down to the facts specifically for these two people right off the bat. I won’t bother watching. Do you address the Algerian athlete dropped their IBA appeal who found the person was a man? If the person really wasn’t a man, why drop the appeal?
One fact is that IOC and IBA run different tests. IOC did do the SRY testing, it showed those two women aren’t “male”. Another fact is that IBA wasn’t able to prove their statement and was suspended.
YOU ARE LYING. The IOC never did any test. Not Sry, nor anything. Give us any evidence of that! The only thing IOC did is looking at the passport. Are u also a woke lying rainbow warrior? Activist of some sort? Truth please, so lay it out here...
> The IBA never said what kind of test it was, just that it wasn't a testosterone test, nor did they explain the results, citing privacy. In an interview with Russian state-owned media, the Russian president of the IBA said that they did a DNA test and found that Khelif had XY chromosomes, but again...look at the source, the audience, the track record of corruption, the timing... > Plus, they did this test in 2022 and didn't have any issue with the results? They used the 2022 test as part of their basis for disqualifying her - even though they allowed her to compete in 2023, up until she beat a Russian athlete. > So there's no evidence that she has higher testosterone. She competed in the 2020 Olympics without incident, even when other female athletes with high testosterone were withdrawn. And the IBA didn't administer a testosterone test. > There's also no other information, testing, questions, or anything that she has talked about that would allude to any sort of chromosomal or hormonal difference. She was born and compete as woman and always has. > People are diagnosing her with all kinds of conditions but there’s actually no evidence for any of it aside from one vague test that an extremely corrupt organization associated with Russia subjected her to when she beat a Russian athlete, the results of which were only discussed by the Russian president of the corrupt organization when he talked to Russian media.
The test was done twice in 2 different labs (neither of them Russian) and independently confirmed. The CAS has accepted them. The desparation of pretending there is somethign shady because a Russian is the head of teh IBA is pretty desperate stuff. Why are you so invested in men being able to punch women as a spectator sport?
@@AeronwenTrewent watch their conference they provided no proofs nor did they release the results or the test used, just talks. You are free to believe words of mouth since that suits your narrative.
The controversy is not new, we know the Olympics allowed biological male to compete against women. Caster Semenyan is a perfect example. About the boxers, the IBA's requirement for boxing into the woman's category is to hold xx chromosomes. We can assume that they are xy chromosomes since one didn't bother to appeal the decision regarding their disqualification and the other dropped the case. You would challenge such a decision if you had chromosomes xx, right? The Russian conspiracy is ridiculous, no Russian athlete had ever compete against them so what's the point?
@@end_of_the_world-v8g Imane did beat a Russian boxer in 2023 shortly after she was required to take another test. Which means she was allowed to participate before and in 2022 included. No official statement from the IBA states that it is a XY chromose issue just baseless headlines. They did a press conference promising to reveal detailed information which they did not. They haven't released any results nor disclosed the nature of the test. What they say is not a fact is an allegations That make no sense regarding the time-line of the events. If you trust that much a corrupt organization nobody knew about before, banned for ethical reasons previously ran by a mobster who got arrested for drug trafficking (yes) Post the result and test used here if you have read them. We all want to see that.
@@end_of_the_world-v8g Until I can see the test results or there's a reputable source - I will continue to follow what the IBA has released; which is that the two boxers *failed unspecified tests* and they were *not* tested for testosterone. The "unspecified *tests is irrelevant if they can't say how they tested, or what the actual results of the test are. If you dont like it, post the test process and results here.
Both paralympics and women sports are inherently problematic by creating seperate categories for people that can't win when competing with everyone else. So you have to draw boundaries and those are dependent on societal beliefs.
Be careful what you wish for. Could be used against your teams. Let me remind you that Brittney Griner of US women’s basketball has XY. She has Adam's apple. While in college, she broke an opposing player's nose in a fight.
IBA cannot release their test details because of medical confidentiality and data privacy laws. But Imane and Lin can VERY easily end this issue by voluntarily releasing their test results but they refused to do so. In fact, Imane NEVER addressed IBA's findings despite several of his public statements and interviews. He just cries and cries some more. Read between the lines... Imane and Lin are cheaters.
When did we decide that certain people get to do everything they want. We all have limitations and insisting we be allowed to do whatever we want is selfish and narcissistic.
no one knows if these boxers even has DSD or if they are just trying to con everyone. All this was based on the IBA saying they both had XY chromosome. thats all that we really know. Some people had assumed DSD because of having a way to explain why they have XY chromosomes but assumed to be assigned female at birth. the IBA didnt say they had DSD. the IOC did not give any gender tests and no one has seen a birth certificate (which could be faked). Most of what is said is all conjecture. The IBA did hold a press conference and confirmed their findings of XY chromosome.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
But even the statement from IBA she has an XY chromosome (which is a wrong in itself, because ther is no such thing as a XY chromosome, there is an X chromosome and a Y chromosome) is not beyond reasonable doubt. First of all because IBA refuses to share the test and test results and second because the most likely used test does not test for a Y chromosome but for a second X chromosome. Assuming there are no Klinefelters and Turners she apparantly should have a Y chromosome if the second X is absent.
@@ouwebrood497 um there is XX and XY lol maybe the reason they dont share the test itself is because they have confidentiality laws. the fact is they did tests and IOC did not. What they did say it wasnt about testosterone it was about XY chromosome. Also its very possible kelif has DSD which means the anatomy is deformed to the point that gender is ambiguous. and its not uncommon in those situations they will assign the person as female at birth even if they have XY chromsome. but if its XY its male regardless of what the anatomy says. And if the person was assign female by the doctor of course the family is going to raise it as female. so just because they were assigned and raised that way doesnt mean anything. IBA says XY chromosome and male. they confirmed it in their press conference a few days ago.
@@ouwebrood497 the real question is why wont the IOC do any tests to put this controversy to rest one way or the other? they have no interest. The IOC seem to be politically motivated to not do so. driven more by identity than biology. All they got to do is swab test spit or blood test. its non invasive and simple. if they have XY they are male pure and simple.
@@metatron333ascension Why should they? They refuse to get gaslighted and rightly so. There is no sincere claim that Khelif is a man and even no claim she has XY for that matter. Only two things are a corrupt organisation that doesn't want to disclose some tests and another female boxer that gave up within a minute with the excuse she was fighting a man.
its not just xy vs yy...or hormone levels ..its the whole brain is wired differently from conception, plus the whole bone & muscle structure is different between male & female....no amount of pills or surgery will ever transition one sex to another.
IBA did not provide evidence of their disqualification before or after the incident. If athletes are not informed of their disqualification, how can they prove they meet the qualifications? After the competition, the athletes underwent re-testing, but the IBA did not accept the results and refused to provide the previous test results. You can check the IBA press conference from a few days ago-I find it very strange.
IBA cannot release their test details because that is both (1) medical confidential info, and (2) private personal data. Both are protected by laws esp in Europe and US. Imane and Lin can VERY easily end this issue by voluntarily releasing their own test results but they refused to do so. In fact, Imane NEVER addressed IBA's findings despite several of his statements and interviews over the last few weeks. Thus, IBA's official findings remain unrefuted. Also, in IBA's presscon 5-Aug Paris, they revealed that Algeria and Taiwan officially ordered them NOT to release the test results of their athletes merely hours before the presscon. And thus, as IBA themselves have said: "... read between the lines." It is quite clear who is telling the truth, and who is trying desperately to cover it all up and muddle it with woke gender nonsense. Imane and Lin are XY. Thus, they are MEN.
@@uchniezt1212 you know what , I don't even think u are following this issue. 1.IBA "CLAIM" Taiwawn ordered them not to release the test result which is not true becuase they still can't provide the evidence that Taiwan put pressure on IBA. And also the Chinese IBA which is the official boxing association in Taiwan said they didn't have any contact with them, if IBA insist this point please provide the evidence. 2.respond to why they didn't prove by themself if theses two athletes were found to have problem and why the fuck IBA didn't tell them. And then IBA didn't ask them to provide the proof before the 2023 world championship began. not only but they are young girl,how the fuck they supposed to know they got issue after testing . how would they provide the proof with the test with no details. AND FUN FACTS: IBA's major financial sponsor is a russian company ,and it turns out: 2018 IBA World Championships Female 2019 IBA World Championships Female 2022 IBA World Championships Female 2023 IBA World Championships Female until semifinals when she beat a Russian boxer then she was male
@@uchniezt1212 nah nah you don't even follow this issue . you can found it on many social media or even the IBA press conference.i think u will stop bullying these two athelets after you guys deep into this issue. i know there are many shitty woke culture around the world but not this one dude.
IBA is banned from IOC for reasons Why don’t anyone question the authenticity of the XY report first? They refuse to provide any details Why does everyone just believe whatever they said? Why all of a sudden, boxers who have fought in this sport for YEARS had been questioned about their SEX? Why the interview for IBA explaining, turns out providing no actual evidence and emphasizing that they love China and all these strange things? I know the complexity of defining sex is extremely hard And it’s not fair to let ppl having different body composition to compete BUT before discussing all these In this case, it’s more a political issue….
I agree with the prohibition of this type of DSD competing in women's sports and think your arguments were spot on. However, I wouldn't give such a quick pass to those who hopped on this to denounce them as trans. Also, the IBA was a corrupt Russian influenced org that only disqualified the boxer after she beat a Russian boxer and has never actually produced the test results. At this point I believe it is only reasonable speculation that these two boxers have DSD.
It shouldn't be about medals or politics. It should be about the safety of the athletes. If genetics give one athlete a dangerous advantage over another, then they should not be allowed to compete in that division. In combat sports, that is why we have separate divisions for men and women as well as weight divisions. Common sense.
Weight classes make sense, but gender separation is a remnant of prehistoric stereotypes. The first generation that will not be brainwashed with gender stereotypes will prove that strength is a question of training, which is very much affected by gender stereotypes ("You 're a girl, go play with dolls, sports are for boys").
A good summary, although not entirely accurate with regard to Semenya. Even fellow school pupils and some teachers were astounded to learn that "she" identified as female for sporting purposes, having taken it for granted that Semenya was male from appearance and mode of dress ie. wearing male uniform items. A desperately sad situation for the individual, but that does not alter biological facts and the desires of an outlier cannot intrude on the rights of the vast majority to enjoy fair ( and safe) competition.
Yes, coaches go looking for youth with the same DSD as Semenya, in the hope of getting them into the women's category. It's a whole thing & it can easily be stopped if we go back to having a cheek swab to identify chromosomes once a career for each athlete.
Well-put.
Yep. Caster is a boy's name. Strange that "her" parents would give their newborn baby "girl" a boy's name.
this is true .. he also wore a boys uniform at primary school
@@lagarde2011 this .. i will never forget when i discovered that Caster is not an uncommon male name in South Africa.
In my opinion, the IBA should publish the XY report to make the theory of XY chromosomes solid.
The IBA should no longer give ambiguous arguments that can be played out.
In their last press conference, an Algerian journalist asked the same question to the IBA and the IBA answer was "professional secrecy"
@@taab84 They can’t because those results are obviously law protected and personal and any lawsuit against IBA in that case would be won without any doubt.
El Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, ex presidente del “Comité Médico”de la IBA y obstetra/ginecólogo con tres décadas de experiencia habló muy claro y calló a decenas de pseudoperiodistas y propagandistas que lo asediaron a preguntas. ua-cam.com/video/gxsciU1Wd7o/v-deo.htmlsi=0NMBUS2UWLicVecX
El Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, ex presidente del “Comité Médico”de la IBA y obstetra/ginecólogo con tres décadas de experiencia habló muy claro y calló a decenas de pseudoperiodistas y propagandistas que lo asediaron a preguntas. ua-cam.com/video/gxsciU1Wd7o/v-deo.htmlsi=0NMBUS2UWLicVecX
The doctor involved did speak up …El Dr. Ioannis Filippatos.
ua-cam.com/video/gxsciU1Wd7o/v-deo.htmlsi=0NMBUS2UWLicVecX
While the sexual development is complex, the goals of transgender activists is not, to define gender solely as self identification.
Since we don't see transgender-XX competing against males, I suspect that the XY subset who identify as female-competitors, dressing-room-invaders, and male-rapists-in-female-prisons are seeking ADVANTAGE over women. The "self-identification" aspect is merely a convenience to the aims of that subset.
This has nothing to do with transgender/transsexual. In the past this was called intersex. We are making everything difficult. Now, we have a syndrome, I guess, with a lot of varieties. The problem is still biologically based. We need clear rules, not guidelines.
@@elkiebeerepoot5829It does. LGBT activists engaged in including intersex people into the gender dysphoria club against intersex/DSD people. Trans and intersex are two totally different things.
You aren't speaking for the majority I'm guessing? Or maybe you are but they are very, very mute. The TAs i've debated here in the midwest ALL claim the right of self-identification.
@@calonstanni Having intersex males defined as women assumes substandard medical situations, like Caster Semenya as a Black in Apartheit South Africa. Looking rather female is not being female.
In the context of boxing you also have to consider safety. Female boxers fighting someone with the strength of a man can get hurt. If Castor Semenya won a race, you can ask if it was fair or not, but the losers won't end up in the hospital.
These women don't have the strength of the average male athlete.
Most of, if not all of these women have as much, or more strength than the average male.
If you're really worried about cheating, look for xx females taking testosterone doping.
That's a real threat.
Have you seen both Khelif and Lin - neither of them are any close to a developed male with the bulk and muscles of a man. Carini just took a light jab (her head barely moved as she got hit), and she just chicken shitted out of the game.
@@yellowlynx This is video is about the general problem of defining womenhood in sports, not about specific people. Women's bones are more fragile. A "woman" boxer with something closer to male muscular development can simply do a lot of damage. That should have been mentioned.
😂😂😂 they know what they are here for
@@yellowlynxMy eyes confirm they are men and the science supports. They should box with men in their weight class. Don’t pretend that small men don’t exist. Literally millions of them around the world.
Not how they are raised, not what the birth certificate says, not what a passport says, not about feelings, not about the IOC's inclusive mental gymnastics, not personally identifying as, not magical thinking...
Strange how the disorders that confer the advantages of male puberty to an athlete are always treated with more deference than the safety and fairplay to unambiguous women athletes.
It is NOT womens responsibility to make nice, share, empathize, and accommodate the Y chomazone to the detriment of their own safety, medals, scholarships, sponsorships, money, professional development, and job opportunities.
Mammalian sex is determined genetically by the presence of X and Y chromosomes. Individuals homozygous for X (XX) are female, while heterozygous individuals (XY) are male. The presence of a Y chromosome causes the development of male characteristics, while its absence results in female characteristics. The XY system is also found in some insects and plants.
It would be simple to have and announce the genetic test. Either in this case they are a great female boxer or they are in the wrong category.
End the discussion, arguments, and speculation.
While I sympathize and empathize for all people with a difficult medical diagnosis, sometimes life is very hard and I wish them well.
Perhaps, athletes with complicated disorders should be in the Paralympic Games or have TransFemale & surprise chomazone tests and TransMale & surprise chomazones test categories.
The Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS) is a network and advocacy group comprised of current and former collegiate and professional women athletes, their families and supporters
And it's not these athletes responsibility to accommodate the feelings of other athletes who are sore losers and inferior athletes. Both these athletes are biological females with higher than normal levels of testosterone.
No, it is the IOC's responsibility to have a standard that is more than a sex designation on a passport.
"In mammals in general," says U professor David Carrier of the School of Biological Sciences, "the difference between males and females is often greatest in the structures that are used as weapons."
The researchers rigged up a hand crank that would mimic the motions of a punch.
They also measured participants' strength in pulling a line forward over their head, akin to the motion of throwing a spear.
This tested an alternative hypothesis that males' upper body strength may have developed for the purpose of throwing or spear hunting.
Twenty men and 19 women participated. "We had them fill out an activity questionnaire," Morris says, "and they had to score in the 'active' range. So, we weren't getting couch potatoes, we were getting people that were very fit and active."
But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman.
Best proxy to discriminate categories _in sports_ (let's leave everything else aside here ok?) seems to be testosterone levels _throughout puberty_ , which could be difficult but not impossible to check because you don't discover yourself a high level athlete at 18. The two ranges are so different that you might want to call the categories high t and low t, and sex would have a superstrong correlation but not exact identification with that.
In my view, gender dysphoric people should be allowed to have hormones when they're old enough to understand themselves better, meaning a trans woman _couldn't_ typically participate with bio women; but not _per se_ , only through testosterone levels measurements.
What about women with XY and CAIS then? I mean how do we measure those advantages, is it the testosterone alone that makes males stronger? Then it is not about DSDs or trans, we should only test for T. What about CIAS - since their bodies cannot process the T even if they have high T it is not an advantage, and btw, there are women who look like women and still have those conditions? What about biological women with higher T, but with their ovaries, uterus, and even period - can they compete? So for a woman to compete she should have all kinds of genetic tests throughout age 10 to 25? I see a lot of different comments, I see u do not come from a place of hate, which I respect, yet I'm really asking here. I did a deep dive, such controversies have been around since at least 1936 (earliest case I found), there was, for a period of time, literal genitalia tests. My first question was in relation to Maria Jose Martinez-Patiño who has very interesting story. What about people who have conditions leading to increase in HGH production? I got lost at some point. So about Imane Khelif there are no official medical tests for us to actually know what she has or not. I do not agree for example that trans women should compete, though I have no problem with them in general. So do u have some fullproof approach for testing?
Thx for that! 💯
It's not even just about the XY chromosomes; it's mainly about their testosterone (T) levels. Would a full biological (XX) woman be allowed to compete in any sport if she were taking steroids and had about the same T level as a man? Of course not. So although I can sympathize with someone who has a genetic gender defect at birth, if they have the same T level as a man, then they need to compete with men, regardless of how they were raised or what gender they chose to identify with.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
What if the testosterone level is within the female’s range? Because somehow their Y doesn’t function at all. That’s why the doctors declared girl when they were born.
I believe their testosterone levels are within the female range, otherwise IOC would not have approved it.
It's the level of testosterone at birth that allowed the body to develop as a male that is very concerning. Lia Thomas had taken the drug to lower his testosterone to compete against women and he won the All American all the while being a mediocre swimmer (461) in the male category. It says it all.
Sorry, this is kind of a ridiculous statement. Testosterone is one aspect of a male body, but there’s so much more including larger lungs, bigger heart, bigger muscle mass, quicker reflexes,I could go on and on. A man can punch up to 160% harder than a woman.
For those who don't know, in a 2018 study published in Science, it was pointed out that individuals carrying the XY chromosome are all initially female during embryonic development. The differentiation into male depends entirely on the Sox9 gene protein, which guides the development of testes in those with the XY chromosome.
If the Sox9 gene protein is not expressed, even individuals with the XY chromosome will develop as female. This condition, where the chromosomes are male but the individual develops as female, is known as "Differences in Sexual Development" (DSD). Belgian model Hanne Gaby Odiele is an example of DSD.
As for why an underdeveloped testis during the embryonic stage can still result in a uterus, the embryonic testis secretes not only male hormones but also Anti-Müllerian hormone (AMH), which eliminates the Müllerian ducts that would otherwise develop into a uterus.
Conversely, if the testes do not develop properly, AMH cannot be secreted normally, allowing the Müllerian ducts to form a uterus. Additionally, insufficient male hormones are produced, resulting in the individual lacking typical male internal and external genitalia. This explains why many female athletes, despite having XY chromosomes, still have a uterus and menstruation.
Currently, there is no formal research indicating that the XY chromosome directly leads to differences in athletic ability. In fact, it's not just individuals with conditions like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or Cryptorchidism; there are also many individuals who are physiologically female but carry the XY chromosome.
The belief that "having an XY chromosome means being male" is the truly unscientific and irrational stance.
Men compete against men, women against women. If you are neither, you don't get to play. What's so difficult about this?
They actually CAN play. But not compete against women.
Because you would practically exclude a human being from the possibility to compete within any sport category. It's basically a compassion vs truth dilemma. I think they could arrange special competitions allowing these athlets to compete against women and other competitions were they are excluded. But they don't do that because investigating on specific hormone disorders leads to privacy concerns and probably we are not ready for this
Why should an excellent athlete not get to play just because they aren’t within the norm? Should super tall men not get to play basketball because they have an advantage? Should men who have higher testosterone levels than the average men not be allowed to compete? Your argument makes no sense. Biological advantages are a part of sports, no reason to completely exclude someone for something they were born with and can literally not change
There is no controversy. They have XY chromosomes. Does not matter what they grew up as.
They were born with a fully formed vagina and uterus. It’s more complicated than you imagine I’m afraid.
Your chromosomes are XR. You know what the R stands for😘
@@deleted01 That's all you've got? Disqualified.
Absolute nonsense. A woman has a bagina. Just ask Matt Walsh.
The Russian officials cheated to give a Russian boxer an unbroken record. The way your going many women will as athletes who work out and train rigorously daily would be disqualified giving Russia supremacy in boxing and all other sports.
@@deleted01
The trans debate has muddied the waters for lay people regarding these sorts of issues. I never understood why activists leapt straight to "anyone can be any gender they like", when intersex conditions seemed more justifiable and would have expanded the general public's understanding of sex without having to make statements that just seemed bizarre and ridiculous on their face to a lay person
That's the whole point, the powers that be WANT people to be confused, it's all a ploy to make people dumber and shatter the nuclear family.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
I will NEVER support the woke DEI/gender nonsense.
Personality is not gender. Never was. "I identify as..." = " I pretend to be... and you should play along or else you are a bigot and t--phobe!"
Sex is gender. Gender is sex. They're practically the same thing. Always have been. Always.
Yes, it was to be expected that people like Imane Khelif would become the victim of the trans-pushing the left has chosen and the similar ridiculuous pushback from reactionary conservatives. It's really sad. Not everything is equally fit to be fought out in public, like these rare DSD's.
First off, the reason is that they are trying to justify actual males as being female and vice versa. They use genetic mutants precisely in order to muddy the waters. Muddy water is the objective. Controversy, confusion and social discord is their aim. The aim of those who manufactured this agenda, that is. Not the victims who fell for the psyop and disfigured themselves as a result.
XY chromosomes gave them strength advantage in women sports. So on the basis of fairness alone they shouldn't be allowed to compete. However, they should compete in men sports as they share the same XY chromosomes. It doesn't matter what they identify, if Anthony Joshua identifies as a female you wouldn't allow him to compete in women boxing.
Best argument I've heard on this. 100% facts.
Here is the issue - they aren't men. They don't have the anatomy of men and aren't anywhere near men in terms of strength. In men sports they'd lose hard and be useless. In women's sports they are basically the equivalent of a steroid user in terms of performance.
Like you don't have a solution either way, you aren't gonna have a fair situation either way.
Anthony Joshua wasn't considered a girl as a baby.
It's not the chromosomes that confer strength advantage. If the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is inactive, the embryo will develop as fully female, no different to an XX female.
@@juvenalsdad4175 XY people with DSDs who don't benefit from testosterone don't become elite athletes. This is why it works to use xx as the inclusion requirement in women's sport.
"XY" athletes. Also known as MEN. i hope this makes that clear for you
A man with a vagina and a clitoris ?
@@lechieur9203
Or a micro penis, neo vagina, and internal testes that produce testosterone and the benefits of male puberty.
Keep sеетhing
No it's not clear, watch the video. Dsd is not gender dysphoria (which in turn is not this new pseudotrans fad, or "political transvestism" as I call it). I'm not saying dsd women can compete with other woman because they have a huge advantage, but they are not men either, genitalia may vary and some of them can have babies...
So it's not that just because you are on YT you _have_ to give a simplistic answer🙂.
XY chromosomes = male!!! The end. No discussion needed. They should be disqualified and forbidden to compete for years as punishment!!!
The vast majority of people that I have seen talking about this topic have had empathy for this person. 100% of them that I’ve watched have even called her a girl because she identifies that way which is what I would also call her. But when it comes to fairness in sports her feelings don’t matter. If you have XY chromosomes, you should not be able to compete against women. I’m sorry that the league allowed her to do this for so long and had her believing that what she was doing was OK. I Imagine it doesn’t feel very good to live your whole life as a woman, but then be disqualified because you aren’t biologically a woman. But that doesn’t change the fact that what she is doing is wrong and what the league is doing is wrong. She should identify as whatever she wants. But that doesn’t mean she gets to disrupt Fairplay for women just to appease one person that believes that they are a woman biologically.
The Olympic struggled with that issue for so many years. In 1999, they have decided not to proceed to test anymore unless there is a suspicion that an athlete, playing with the women, is really a biological male. In this instance, the IOC had turned an blind eye to the letters received from organisations having run testings and alarming them that this person is a biological male. The IOC had the authority to request a test to confirm prior testing, they decided, probably with the current ideology on gender in mind, to not do anything. The IOC has to address the situation and ban biological male. Athlete like Caster having the 5-ard should be ban in the women's category because they don't have anything in their body that is female.
Even if she has XY chromosomes, which I don't think we have clear evidence for, saying she is biologically a man is not a correct statement. We could potentially say she is chromosomally male, though just saying XY is more precise. Defining her entire gender on her chromosomes, however, is arbitrary. Gender can present along several different criteria; chromosomes, hormones, genitals, etc... there are women born with DSD that present very feminine and live their lives as women and calling the biological males due to their chromosomes is incredibly reductive and does not necessarily comport with their experiences.
@@zombiedeathrays8862 The testing is to establish male advantage, which is abour male development and is not affected by the gender religion.
We simply cannot have beings whose XY chromosomes put them at a dangerous and unfair advantage over women.
I agree completely. I feel sad for someone like Imane. It doesn’t change the fact that she is physically at a much greater advantage and allowing her to compete completely defeats the purpose of have men and women categories.
Why many saying that XY athletes aiming to compete against XX athletes is unfair to disqualify... they should not. They just have to compete against other XY athletes. In other words: in the male group. No one wants to disqualify them from that. Yet they refuses. You should know why.
Be careful what you wish for. Could be used against your teams. Let me remind you that Brittney Griner of US women’s basketball has XY. She has Adam's apple. While in college, she broke an opposing player's nose in a fight.
The point is less about the Y-chromosome (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome excluded) than it is about years of development under the influence of an *anabolic steroid* (testosterone). In essence, years of doping.
That seems unrelated and not reported for these cases.
At least, Khelif seems to have been rejected from an intnl. organization for being XY.
This is critical data for the analysis.
@@juliobro1 The issue is that they are mistakenly identified as female at birth and then later go through male puberty (with internal testes instead of ovaries). It is going through male puberty and the development of bones/muscle through andogenization is the issue.
@@lmp23612 that has a good chance for being the reason.
@@lmp23612 all males including those with 5-ARD have physiological advantages over female athletes even before going thru puberty.
@@juliobro1 Of course it's related. It's doping. Google "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" and see why response to hormones is the determining factor in athletic performance.
With empathy for everyone involved. But, are the athletes in the crosshairs empathic to the women they're beating? It's one thing that they've been raised women, that they trained hard all their lives, dedicated as much time and effort as anyone else and are genuine about wanting to better themselves and achieve in their sports, but a developmental disorder unfairly throws all that into disarray and makes them a villain to some. It's another thing when/if they know full well they have an unfair advantage over their competition and they still go on, rather than bow out with some grace and show character, not only in that they'd acknowledge them participating would be unfair and even harmful to women, but that they are willing to give up that career path and settle for another where their disorder could still allow them to pursue their passion. Them being forced to quit is not fair to them, but them continuing to compete is not fair to their competition, but it is the sensible and fair thing to do for the fairness of sports.
Although, where giants on the basketball court are concerned...well...luck of the draw in genetics, or an irregularity in development, again?
I agree. They knew they were men when they received the test results. They could be in denial, but they must have felt that they were different to girls growing up. They don’t have periods or breasts like women. They could be attracted to women. They would have felt that… I think they probably would not be surprised.
The female boxers know they're going to lose.
Why step into the ring in the first place and give them the satisfaction of beating you up ?
Their gold medals, outside their own countries, are going to be tainted.
Hower, 'winning' by default because every women refused to fight them would result in worldwide humiliation.
If these boxers were 16 or 17 years old I may have some compassion but this algerian boxer is 25. They, the family, the coaches and the national team would have known for at least a decade that something was wrong as no menstruation and full masculisation at puberty became apparent.
They will have known since puberty, if not before, that they are male.
@@laf4891 What are you talking about?
The russians literally took Imane Khelif away for unspecified tests that didn't even check her testosterone.
Then they told her she was disqualified because she had some sort of unfair advantage. And the russians then reinstated the russian boxer undefeated record.
Is there any evidence or lab test indicating they have XY chromosomes? I have not seen any of those. IBA did not provide any evidence.
I don't see you producing evidence that you are not a tit.
No but there are some clear signs. Why does Kalif wear make protective gear? Females don't have testicles to protect
There isn't any evidence or published lab test results indicating they have XY chromosomes. And the IBA hasn't provided any hard evidence.
Imane Khelif beat an Russian boxer. So the IBA, which has links to GAZPROM, ran some tests. And the unspecified eligibility tests lead to Imane Khelifs disqualification.
Thereby leading to the restoration of the Russian boxers undisputed record.
IBA cannot publish the results without the boxers consent. Also be aware that by questioning IBAs results you also are questioning the laboratory in Istanbul that provided the results. Also be aware that Imane had a chance to appeal the results with the costs of appealing almost completly covered but withdrew and chose not to. Also think about why the boxer never done the tests out of his own initiative. You can fact check all the info i gave you here.
@@bluejesus105 I did fact check you.
The results from the 2022 test in Turkey were inconclusive.
It’s not just testosterone. Men are different in their anatomy. Also it’s not also fairness. It’s safety.😊
And yet scrawny male boxers exist. Disqualifying women who were assigned female at birth and always lived as women is not "safety" or "fairness". If you don't want to get hurt, don't box.
Just like chromosomes, testosterone won't get you anywhere without the training. Athletic qualities are much more a question of training and general way of life than all other factors together.
The question I have, which wasn’t answered as far as I can tell, is whether these two athletes recently at the Olympics suffer from these specific developmental disorders or not. Is the reason the one athlete specifically was excluded from previous competition indeed because they have XY chromosomes?
This is not clear and although many say it is, they are just lying.
They are perfectly healthy. This is cheating. They are in fact biological men. Sports is a privilege not a right. Life isn't fair. Nature is cruel. This is Marxist identity politics dividing people being by manipulating those controlled by irrationality seeking to feel good about themselves via virtue. Vladimir Lenin called them useful idiots. This is Marxism 101. Google Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals. Obama and Hillary Clinton worshipped the guy. The objective is authoritarianism, the road map, the play book is Rules for Radicals, identity politics, and oppressor/oppressed narratives.
It’s not clear because it’s private information. If you get tested for anything, e.g. COVID, HIV, or any disease or disorder, your doctor is legally not allowed to divulge information to others without your permission. The IBA can say they were disqualified because they didn’t meet the requirement for inclusion in the female category, which was to be genetically XX. They cannot divulge the exact results.
@@Cheryl-bh4oo so it could have equally been high testosterone. so we may be considering a case of a person with female sex organs.
@@bfarzady5212 It's unlikely. When sporting bodies say "high testosterone" it normally means testosterone within the normal male range, meaning the athlete is XY. Whenever you hear that term, you can be pretty sure they are referring to a male athlete.
The IOC chose politics over biology.
Do you blame them, they are funded that would be compromised, like any paid job. Talking just prolongs the problem...no money no stupid ideas.
They chose ball over boobs!
@raydology9584 they make the rules for their sporting event so it is primarily their fault especially when they ignored a Boxing Organization
💯
I think they fired the IBA because they don't support any testing for gender. They only check passports.
By definition, a man has XY chromosomes, and, most importantly, a female has XX chromosomes. Genetic abnormalities in the XY chromosome can cause some men to develop female characteristics and grow up identifying and feeling like females. While there's nothing inherently wrong with this, they are still biologically men with female traits and, crucially, not females.
There is clearly confusion when MEN with these genetic abnormalities are considered females at birth, But this is a social issue apart from science and sports, it doesn't change the fact that these men are not physiological females.
So men can get pregnant?
@@astralisranger517can Imane get pregnant? If so, that would mean that her body is organized around the production of eggs and she would be female, by ultimate definition.
@@astralisranger517lol
@@astralisranger517no. If you’re thinking about XY women which is swyer syndrome. They are female because theoretically they may have a uterus but no gonads. If by egg donation then they can probably carry a pregnancy and that is a female only role in biology.
No, that's not the definition of male and female.
it's not just a fairness issue... the safety of women are at stake as well.
No person with XY chromosomes should fight anyone with XX chromosomes. Doesn't matter male or female. It's not fair and it's not safe. Imane Khelif is aware of the advantages and that is despicable. Safety first. Always.
Women's safety in a combat sport like boxing -- assuming a level playing field -- is a bit absurd. The sport is high risk and the likelihoid of permanent impairment is almost a certainty.
@@laurenladd9056 the power in a male punch is 160 times that of a female.
There is no comparison.
@@laurenladd9056Don’t be ridiculous
It's funny to me that people suddenly care about safety in a field where it is about who can punch the other one the hardest. If one cares about safety boxing is the last place to go, wether you are man, woman, or whatever.
all we need to know is that they have XY chromosomes and this causes them to have higher testosterone in the range of regular males. This is a huge advantage to XY chromosome holders, so they should either have their own league or just fight other men, its quite simple.
They were born with a vagina and uterus. You can also have XX males that have a penis.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
many normal XX females have higher than normal testosterone levels as well...this gives them the same, not more, advantage as this boxer has...and they are not banned.
@@dee5105Knock, knock, elevated testosterone in women is not on any level of a man. A man with low testosterone still has more than a woman with elevated levels.
@@briantbmoth6472 yes indeed they have elevated testosterone is not on any level of a man!
"XY athlete" - you meant "a man".
Not a man. Some of them can have babies too.
Man/woman not equal to be eligible/not to compete with other women.
@@nefaristo Sorry but no XY person has ever had a baby in the history of humanity. An XY adult (with or without DSD) has no uterus and neither could one be created for them by any medical procedure. They have no cervix, no fallopian tubes and there is nowhere for their foetus to gestate assuming that they could conceive which they cannot. They cannot menstruate. They cannot produce an ovum (ie. large immobile gamete) because they have no ovaries. Fertilisation is not possible since they can only produce tiny gametes (male sperm) which cannot reproduce with other male gametes. Women menstruate, gestate new human beings and go through the menopause. They will all, if they live long enough, do at least two of these three things. Men can do none of them.
@nefaristo if they have a uterus, they have XX chromosomes... never XY!!! Because the Y chromosome has one job: create a penis and testicules. It is pretty simple.
#SaveWomensSports
@@nefaristo By "have babies," do you mean get pregnant? I don't think so. To my knowledge, no XY person has ovaries that produces eggs.
(I'm not arguing with your main point, just this detail.)
@@nefaristo Its hilarious how spineless youtubers/women and feminist minded men fail miserably at this topic. When DNA is conclusive REPRODUCIBLE science, THEN, there is reproductive endocrinology, THEN there is bone density AND pelvic bone differences. As soon as this pointlessly rambling woman said "some people" and not the under 2% of the population, you knew she is just milking a video title and not actually explaining anything everyone already knows. And of course women then can't understand that these men, strangely COMPETING AT THE OLYMPICS, ARE ONLY DOING SO, DUE TO THEIR PHYSICAL ADVANTAGES.
This is pathetic.
Good explanation.
The problem is that physical advantage in sport isn’t limited to xy chromosomes. For instance taller people tend to do better in most sports so should we categorise by height in order to be ‘fair’?
Let’s face it, the primary reason that this issue has blown up to this extent this year is the anti-trans rhetoric promoted by the same kind of people who have spouted an anti-gay agenda in the past or anti any other minority. It’s just the latest target of haters.
how fun to have all players exactly the same height weight skill level too? Some people are naturally athletic with bodies wonderfully suited to certain sports some of us have to work hard to get at that level. But at the starting line its all male or all female.
The only practical solution seems, to me, to be to scrap "male" sport, as a defined category and change it to "open". Anyone can freely compete in those events. Then have "female" sports with suitably strict parameters.
That's already the case in many sports, it's "open" and "women's".
Or we can scrap women's sports and eliminate this debate entirely
@@deleted01the difference is, that in open category there will be moslty MEN who will win. So MEN dont loose like women do without specific category.
@@martam2071 Not everyone is meant to be competitive🤷♂
That would not change anything at all, because there are no physical sports in which women can compete with men. So the "Open" division would be exactly the same as the Mens" division is now.
Where is the proof of IBA accusation?
They have no evidence, and no evidence was presented at the press conference, but the funny thing is that many fools believe in IBA
According to a statement from IOC, Yu-Ting Lin is a girl, the daughter of Taiwan!!
The IBA’s recognition was withdrawn by the IOC in 2023 following its suspension in 2019. The withdrawal of recognition was confirmed by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).
IOC bases its gender decision merely on passport, rather than biological tests (i.e. karyotyping). That's how ridiculously woke this year OLympic is.
This lady is full of common sense.
but lack of knowelge.
no maybe not. Not strong on medisin or biology. hope shes not a rainbow activist then
@@nerolimii8691bwhahah so true. If you got Balls…….then it’s NOT FAIR. Point Blank!!!
Much as I sympathize with people who are dissatisfied with the bodies they were born with - much as I understand how someone might feel so strongly about it that they are willing to undergo painful and difficult surgery, hormone therapy, psychotherapy, etc. in order to make their bodies feel more comfortable - the procedures do not change their gender. If you've got XY chromosomes, that's never going to change. And that makes a difference in your athletic abilities. It is unreasonable to expect people with XX chromosomes to pretend that someone with the Y chromosome who is trans is somehow now equivalent to them. There is a difference, and it matters. I don't know of a way to get around this problem, but forcing XX people to compete with XY people in athletics is not the answer.
When you have XY Chromosomes it indicates and confirms you are a male, females do not and cannot have XY chromosomes. This guy's extremely high testosterone levels indicate he has his testicles in his abdomen. Even males born with a normal penis occasionally have concealed testicles in their abdomen, this condition can sometimes be corrected with an operation. This vid is probably the best explanation of what this guy is about, and yes if he has XY chromosomes he is a guy.
In Seyer Syndrome they do not have testes. They have undeveloped gonads called “streak gonads” and that is why, despite having some variation of female reproductive anatomy.
This issue is actually quite complex.
Before 1968, athletes had to undergo external physical examinations to confirm their gender. Yes, this meant undressing for inspectors! This method was simple but completely violated the athletes' privacy.
Later, the Olympics introduced chromosome testing to check whether athletes had XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes. This might sound straightforward, but there were still many issues.
For example, some individuals have a Y chromosome, but due to inactive gene segments, their bodies exhibit female characteristics and function entirely as female. This condition is known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.
Because chromosome testing isn't entirely accurate, testosterone testing is now mostly used.
@@Idawu-l4s Testosterone testing is fine, the problem is females also produce testosterone but not in the same amount as males. 'Inactive gene segments'? If you have 'Y' chromosomes then then you are reproducing 'Y' chromosomes. Females do not have active or inactive 'Y' chromosomes.
@@fefaini if he had Swyer's he wouldn't be in competitive boxing. TBH I think discriminating on the presense of a Y chromosome is rational.
@@Idawu-l4s incorrect. the (uninvasive, quicjk and cheap) cheek swab chromosome test is fine in almost all cases. where there is an abnormailtity indicated further testing is appropriate. This ould be rare. If the IOC reintroduced sex tests it would be vanishingly rare.
There are so many smokescreens around this issue. Thank you for giving clarity.
But she's wrong in the most fundamental way. They are cheating because they are biological men competing against women. If I raise my little boy as a girl should he get to play women's sports? Hell no. The only difference is their balls aren't hanging down. This is irrational illogical and insanity. Sports especially the Olympics are not a right but a privilege. Life is cruel and not fair. Nature is cruel.
Like when schools say an entire school full of girls have to shut up and be quiet so one boy with a psychological condition, because that's what trans is, can use the girls locker room and restrooms. That's insanity. Since when do hundreds of girls lose their rights to make one kid happy? In what world is that rational or fair? Let that kid use the teachers lounge or principal's office restroom. Sorry if they feel different. They are different.
Just keep it simple. XX is female and XY is male. We understand that some individuals develop in unusual ways. The Olympic criteria is not appropriate. The two men are both xy.
They can never be accused of being blamed as a credit to their male (xy) gender.
XX is female and XY is male - is simplest, most accurate biologically and why change to cause all this confusion- putting women (Xx) at risk?
XX and XY tests are straightforward and are the most meaningful - as they define female and male in biology
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
This issue is actually quite complex.
Before 1968, athletes had to undergo external physical examinations to confirm their gender. Yes, this meant undressing for inspectors! This method was simple but completely violated the athletes' privacy.
Later, the Olympics introduced chromosome testing to check whether athletes had XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes. This might sound straightforward, but there were still many issues.
For example, some individuals have a Y chromosome, but due to inactive gene segments, their bodies exhibit female characteristics and function entirely as female. This condition is known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.
Because chromosome testing isn't entirely accurate, testosterone testing is now mostly used.
@@Idawu-l4s Just keep it simple 1) xx is female and 2) xy is male.
@@Idawu-l4s You put aside the fact that people with DSD "5-ard" like Caster has nothing female, that should be taken into consideration. If someone fails the XX test, more investigation should be conducted. 5-ard competing in the women's category are way more represented in the Olympics than in the society in general. It's very well known in the coaching world that when you can put your hand on an individual with that condition, the women's medals are for your athlete.
That’s the issue, it is not simple
Boxing is a physical contact sports where you hit your opponents head, even men vs men can cause some serious damage so just imagine these fighter with a testosterone of a man hitting a pure woman imagine what serious damage it can cause.
Of course they're cheating. They know perfectly well they aren't 100% biological women and know they have an advantage.
They are both born biological women. Neither are transgender.
Right, because every village in Algeria has top grade genetic testing centers. Right next to the mosque I hear.
And Amad will check your test too. Right after he cheek swabs you and checks your SV02 max.
@@robertkeaney9905 Back in May of 2023 the IBA notified them that they had been disqualified from the World Boxing Championship for failing a gender test. They knew they had lost out on a chance to win $200,000 for gold, $100K for silver, or $50K for bronze for that tournament, and that they would never be allowed to box in an IBA sponsored fight again.
Lin did not appeal the decision at all, while Khelif did take his case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ... but then withdrew the appeal shortly after. They walked away from a huge part of their careers because they both knew they would lose their appeals. They probably have known since they were little children that they were not "normal" biological women.
@@harrynutzach307 Khelif didn't withdraw her appeal. Her appeal was terminated because she couldn't afford the procedural fee.
@@robertkeaney9905 Source?
So much concern about fairness only when there are advantages in women's sports. Male sports applaud those advantages especially biological advantages. And if there was an unfairness because some women have testosterone, then Imane or any other woman like her would have perfect streaks and no one would ever beat them, and that is not the case. These athletes work for their skills, biological advantages are nothing without putting in work. And it further degrades the other women that compete against them and win. This whole thing is the IBA making a fuzz because they were expelled from the IOC back in 2019 for bad management, ties to Russian mafia, and other sketchy shit, they should not be viewed as trust worthy.
I don't understand why the IOC could not make a simple chromosome test themselves when they did not accept the one by IBA. Get the facts straight and act upon them! It is not fair to women if they have to compete against physical males.
The IOC simply didn't want to. Riding the woke wave.
Why aren't there more athletes who are females-at-birth with DSD that compete in men's categories?
Female people with DSDs tend to be affected in such a way that they can never be elite athletes. It's just a few male DSDs that result in no physical ailments & enable those with them to be athletes. Especially 5 ARD, mentioned in the video- there was a famous 800m women's race where the first three places were taken by three XY athletes with 5 ARD.
It's a pretty rare syndrome. I forget the numbers but really rare.
@@flowermeerkat6827no. The majority of intersex people are females. Biologically.
Because mysogyny
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
Paris Olympic needs to face international criminal Court of Justice.
The so-called 'Paris Boxing Unit' of the IOC was an absolute disgrace with no standards regarding entry for female boxing and boxing judges, investigated and noted regarding corruption at the 2016 Rio Olympics invited back.
There's no debate here. It's impossible to debate with people determined to twist reality to serve their own ends. You call them out and do whatever is necessary to counter their evil intentions.
The GRA means you can change your passport. So passport saying female is meaningless.
And your Birth Certificate 🎉
@@ObiePaddles She's Algerian. They don't recognise transgenderism or issue documents. She was assigned female at birth.
@@ahahaha3505 I mentioned the GRA to make the obvious illustration that a passport is meaningless.
I know of someone the DSD. They were ‘assigned female at birth and on birth certificates etc.. This is while knowing of the DSD condition.
Still a man.
A tragic story for all concerned.
@@ObiePaddlesWhat gives you the right to determine someone with female genitalia is a man?
You have to draw the line somewhere. The exception cannot be the rule. It's unfortunate for them, but we're talking about .01% of the population and probably about 1% of those aim for Olympic level sports. Early lesson in life I taught my kids, life isn't fair. If it was, I'd be a pro hockey player... I play sports at my level. Not against 12 year old kids or women (unless it's for everyone's fun of course).
They are .01% of the population, but the percentage of them winning in women's sports is WAY WAY higher than that. I mean, BOTH the women winning gold in their weight classes are DSD (XY chromosomes.) Both the women dominating this race for the #1 and #2 spots have XY chromosomes: ua-cam.com/video/pImKTAmfXuM/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared . Despite this condition being extremely rare, it is not extremely rare at the top of elite women's sports. And that is the problem. It's not fair. XX women will never be able to break the records set by these intersex and trans women with biologically male bodies.
Some background. IBA got support financially from Russia for years. The Russian state oil company is IBA's sponsor. Current IBA president Umar Kremlev is a friend of Vladimr Putin. When the re-election of IBA president was organized 2022, Umar Kremlev simply disqualified all challengers (sounds familiar?), so he was the only person to be "elected".
IBA received a lot of sponsorship from Russia's state owned natural gas companies.
When the freeworld sanctioned athletes from Russia and Belarus for Russia 's invasion of Ukraine, IBA allowed Russian and Belarussian boxers to represent their countries in IBA matches.
All of the EU and allies boycotted IBA's match.
IBA was disqualifed as a body for organizing boxing matches for boxers that will enter the Olympic games by IOC in 2019.
Imane Khelif participated in a tournament by IBA and defeated another contestent Azalia Amineva - and she is Russian, a rising boxing star who was never defeated until defeated by Khelif - then as soon as Amineva was defeated, Khelif was singled out for "testing" (whatever that means, IBA still refuses to disclose what exactly were tested, the procedures etc.).
IBA also contradicted their own statements: first they said they never tested the testosterone levels of Lin nor Khelif, then in recent press conference, IBA spokespersons suddenly claimed that their levels of testosterone were what and what.
Just connect the dots. The same thing also occurred to Lin, because Lin be fighting the same Azalia Amineva at the IBA tournament where Khelif was stripped of her bronze medal.
IBA did not test all the participants for "gender eligibility" but targetted a handful without disclosing the rationale.
@@yellowlynx I'm not sure whether insinuations of corruption are important here. It doesn't really matter what the motivation for the IBA is, only whether they were correct about the gender test. A bad guy making a good point doesn't make the bad guy any better or the point any worse.
The athletes could clear this up overnight by having an independent gender test performed. I'm sure the IOC would allow that. Would it suck to be in their position - of course. But they're in this position already and don't have a time machine to change any of it, so it's something of a moot point.
I really have sympathy for them. For some sports like clay pigeon shooting it makes no difference what gender they are. For others, like track and field events, it really does matter but at least nobody gets hurt. For boxing it really matters and the stakes are high. Physics has to trump fashionable culture wars, and physics doesn't care about feelings.
Some background. The tests were done twice and independent labs in 2 different countries. The CAS have accepted the testing and the results.
Soeme men are so keen to watch men beating up women they will invent all sorts of rubbish to try to disgusie teh truth.
@@AeronwenTrewent IBA failed to disclose the test protocols (not the results of individuals) when asked multiple times. For any people wo have an ounce of knowledge in lab testings, the protocols will reveal if the tests are reliable or not. Instead they simply deflect and even sugested that Taiwan is part of China. If you said that there's nothing political, you are blilnd.
Lin Yu-Ting was born as a girl and she started boxing since 13 yo for 15 years, and if Lin was a man, where is that maculine body ? If Lin was a man, the Polish girl won't even last a round.
I’m looking for a lot of evidence to support her gender, even scientists says that XY chromosome is not only standard for gender, even DSD have no scientific proof that she have any difference with normal females , science shows that we can only measure athlete’s Testosterone levels to ensure the game is fair, and that is exactly what I.O.C do.
If you guys really wanna talk about those little details then we should talk about every single differences between everyone, then those greatest athletes are not going to participate, and we should just fight mirrors. Anyway I’m not blindly supporting her, if it’s really not fair to other women, then we should make a new rules for them, but we don’t have any evidence, so I rather protecting the person who might be innocent, seeing all these more reasonable comments make me less anxiety.
He has all the evidence but he doesn't disclose it. I wonder why. If you want detailed, unbiased information from an expert, look up Dr Emma Hilton ✌🏻
I feel bad for these athletes. I am sure they started training and pouring their life into the sport before they knew that they were men. Then at puberty (which is hard enough) they find they have this life altering condition. Do we expect a young teenager to make the right decision at this point? After all the sunk cost? And when they know that for all the drawbacks of their condition the one good thing is that it gives them a winning advantage? It is up to the governing boards to be the adults in the room.
Also note that while the board was aiming for inclusion, what they gave these athletes was publicising their most private and embaressing personal infomation to be mocked all over the internet.
I also 'feel bad' for DSD individuals, but that doesn't mean they should disrupt women's sports.
Then they ought to have their own category, and compete, as normal males and females do, against their own physiological peers.
@@rogerjohnson2562 no of course not. I am only addressing the hate directed at the individual. I believe critisism should more rightly be directed at the governing board...
@@Guy-Lewis It's an interesting idea. But are there enough people with these rare disorders to compete against each other? Also you would need an audiance interested in seeing the competitions.
I was at your point until I realized, that they ABSOLUTELY know that they're male. At least since puberty. They're gaming the system and in some countries they're actively seeked out by scouts for athletic careers. Bc every trained mediocre male will beat every woman in almost every sport. In the meantime Kaster Semenya has fathered children.
They know.
i would add despite parents raising the child as a girl initially, they would have to know by puberty that something was wrong. It's why we always find these athletes representing poor countries, being unable to investigate medically lack of menstruation and masculinisation at puberty. Thats at best. Cynics claim coaches actively look for DSD males to compete as women.
This as a sensible and cogent summary. On a pragmatic level, however, do we take into account the devastating emotional impact to DSD individuals who come from remote and sometimes impoverished circumstances and are unaware of these nuances of biology and then humiliate and stigmatize them mid-games on the world stage in front of their countrt men? Who will assume liability for this?
He will have known he was male since puberty, if not before. He still beats up women for money, fame and kicks. My sympathy for him ends there.
Well, in the case of DSD 5-ard, the transformation of the body into male can't be ignored by the person at around 12 yo. So the devastating emotional impact would be feel at that age. I blame the athletic world to allow this to happen as they know the issue very well and have decided not to address it.
It's really harsh what she is going through, just she happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. If she had competed 5 years ago no one would have cared, she would have been just a woman with a lot of muscle. It's not fair to use her as a soccer ball in a culture war.
He will have known he is male since puberty or probably before. He still gets in teh ring and beats up women. I have no sympathy for any man who does this.
@@ouwebrood497 Heis male and is punching women. If you dont care about men have a far stronger punch and women having thinner skulls you are complicit..
Excellent explainer. Just the right detail. Grateful for your work. Your mic was off axis so the audio was a bit thin. You can see it in the video too, as the side of the mic faces the camera, and thus your narration. Thanks again, and I apologize if you know the audio issue already. Best regards.
Excellent explanation but she is wrong about one thing, it is cheating because they are in FACT biological males. Life isn't fair. People are born blind, deaf, crippled, etc. They don't get to have a normal life. Playing sports, being in the Olympics, those are not rights, but privileges. Suck's for them, but nature can be cruel. Life isn't fair. They should be grateful they are healthy. But the reality and truth is they are biological men and they have no business competing again girls and women. Period. It's insane we even need to have this conversation. Normal rational people understand this. It's science.
The only reason it's an issue is the western world is being taken over by Marxist elites hell bent on destroying capitalism and democracy with oppressor/oppressed narratives and identity politics. The irony is this is Paris, the birthplace of Post Modernism which spawned critical theory which states there is no objective reality. The post-modernists were atheist Marxists philosophers.
Every Communist revolution uses identity politics and oppressor/oppressed narratives to brainwash people especially those most easily manipulated via emotions, empathy, and virtue, which is evil. We had the Cold War and a century of global war because self righteous virtuous Russian and German Jews from the Manhattan Project thought the world would be a better place if America and Russia had the bomb. Fifty years of global destruction and chaos and over 100 million dead due to Communism was the product of their virtue. And we're still paying the price with all the conflict caused by the Cold War, including Middle Eastern conflict, China, and North Korea.
Thank you for calling him a him.
It was incredibly challenging to find someone who could explain everything to me with precise information. Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes and testosterone levels that an XX woman would never reach, but was identified as female at birth due to a genetic anomaly. As a result, she was raised as a girl
"Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes and testosterone levels that an XX woman would never reach" ... From where do you have that information? I have not found that officially stated anywhere. Just random people on social media.
he is a man though and should not be in teh female category.
@@potzysk2 Ok, let's say we don't know for Khelif, we do know for Caster and he was allowed in the women's category so the debate is essential.
@@potzysk2 That's true. That she has XY chromosomes is parrotted almost everywhere, but the IBA refuses to disclose which test has been used.
@@ouwebrood497 Do you live under a rock? IBA (thru Dr. Filippatos) has revealed what those tests were (karyotyping). IBA even went further to reveal which 2 laboratories did the tests. Imane and Lin can easily end the issue by voluntarily revealing the test results but they refuse to do it. Shocker! (sarcasm)
They need their own competition category.
They already have their own category. XYs are males.
They have it - it' teh male category
What you said is pointless because the IBA has no evidence to prove whether LIN is XY or XX. The IBA has only unilaterally announced that LIN is XY, but LIN has repeatedly provided scientific proof of her female identity during competitions. If the IBA or anyone else relies solely on the IBA's verbal accusations, can I accuse anyone present, or any contestant, of competing with an incorrect gender without providing any evidence? This is the greatest insult to the person involved. If you are making ignorant accusations from behind a screen, influencers are merely seeking to gain traffic, and the IBA has achieved its dirty goal. Naturally, the IOC must defend its athletes with evidence; otherwise, the IOC is merely helping the IBA bully the accused contestants. During a public press conference, when asked by reporters to provide evidence that LIN is XY, the IBA only responded crudely by saying Taiwan is a part of China. Can’t you see it yet? Who are these manipulators, and what are their motives?
Lin Yu-ting has not take any sex tests. Why not? We know the answer.
THERE IS NO SOLUTION.
The dilemma is the following: you could put XY5ARD into the men's category, but their lack of DHT means that their bone strength is somewhere between male and female, which should be no problem for Caster, but could be devastating for boxers like Imane, who could get their bones broken.
Having their own category is not very practical. The incidence of XY5ARD is very rare (1 in 90,000 births), and so you would struggle to make up a team to send to the Olympics.
And please, it's highly unlikely to be XY AIS, because that DSD leads to a feminised morphology. They are all XY5ARD.
Not true.
Shame on the Olympic Games!
There is a video interview of Lin Yuting when she was a child (junior high school student). Boys and girls in junior high schools in Taiwan have different uniforms. She is indeed a little girl.
ua-cam.com/video/XDrW-0lIpK4/v-deo.html
Shame on the Olympic games? Why?
Imane Khelif was disqualified by an russian run organization after beating an russian boxer. Using unspecified tests, that the russians refuse to elaborate on.
And this whole rumor mill has been stoked by the russians because they are pissed that the IBA because they are mad that the IOC took over olympic boxing from them.
@@灰階the problem is she had xy chromosome and higher testosterone an attributes of a man which can cause serious damage against pure woman in a physical brutal contact sport of boxing
Pretty sure this video makes the argument that someone with XY should not be competing against women because it's unfair.
While I appreciate that you attempted to explain DSD, this is not an explain of this controversy given that the water is much deeper than DSD. First, there is no clear evidence even from IBA to show the two athletes have Y chromosome. While the IBA claimed that it is because the confidential reason per their origins countries’ boxing association requested, this is proofed a FALSE claim from the Taiwanese boxing association at least. Second, not all of the female athlete have gone through the test IBA used to disqualify the two athletes. Before the start of the competition, both athletes passed the examination. During the competition, both of them got sudden blood draw requests and informed that no matter whether they agree to do the tests, they will be disqualified. This additional test was not done for all athletes. During the interview a few days ago, IBA representative cannot even explain what type of test it is except saying it is not a standard testosterone test. If this test from IBA is not a standard test for IBA but IBA thinks it is so important to disqualify an athlete’s qualification, shouldn’t it be done to ALL athletes? Additionally, if the new hidden test is so important for deciding the qualification, shouldn’t the IBA explain what type of tests should be done, the science related to it, put new rules upfront, test before the competition, and make it a normal standard to all boxing game? Third, many diseases were unknown until the technology catching up. The two athletes followed the current rules to show their qualifications. Thus, they should be respected as a qualified athletes no matter what situation it is. Even if in the future the standards need to be shifted, the blame or discussion should go to the system not the atheists. As a biologist, I would also support that we need a better standard to avoid potential unfairness from extreme case such as some, if not all, transgender in adulthood cases to attend female competition and more research should be done to draw the line. However, at the same time, there is no reason to cyber bully or on-stage bully any athletes who have shown their qualifications in the current system. The current wave is a total witch-hunt and a extremely unfair punch down from mega-influencers to hard-working athletes. As you also suggested in this video, a better standard is needed to be discussed. However, so many people now is just judging the appearing of the two athletes doesn’t LOOK LIKE a women with the westerner beauty standard, and many players are losing their sportsmanship by following the crowds without even try to understand the situation. At least for Lin’s case, I know the fact that athletes who have trained with her have witness her hanging there training while her energy and observable symptoms looked Iike she was experiencing periods, which is not something would happen for a DSD patient. Though only Lin knows whether she ever has period, this is not going to be a key for her qualification in competing 2024 Olympics nor an excuse for other athletes being disrespectful to or humiliating her on stage after losing the game. Finally, given the most important thing is to discuss the standard, I would want to throw out some questions to think about: If chromosomes became the key test rather than hormones, isn’t that means XYY or related disorders should also be discussed in attending male’s competition, too? Should all gender exams at birth for all countries who attend sports games change from judging appearance than the test chromosome for EVERY SINGLE BABY in case a “disqualified” kid accidentally go on the sport career? Is testing chromosome really a more fair way for competition? And does every athlete standing there right now (including those two signing X at the end of the game to Lin and all other no sportsmanship athletes we saw this time) really know their own chromosome gender to disrespect athletes they thinks as sus? Stop witch-hunt, respect to all already qualified athletes, and focus on discussing the potential changes to the standards for the future without targeting any person are the most important three things.
so who are you? they have tested XY twice, and u know that very well. Tests from turkey 22 arrived late, before that covid.
should be very easy for the Ioc/ them two boxers to take a swap Dna test..? but no, this is politics, also for you. Let men beat women in the ring.
They had even support financially to go to the CAS. But they knew they would fail and loose again. Shame and pityful.
Iba is Swissbased, and have members all over, they are protecting women's safety. why should they come to Paris? To show how Ioc is doing things, and the woke journalists from ex BBC.
IBA never reveal what type of test they did to both the athletes and the public. They only send out a note to the athletes implying them do not have XX chromosome without sharing the test results nor the test name to the athletes. No need to mention that this unknown blood test was done only on 4 hand-pick out of 26 athletes during the game. If the collecting process is not standard and fair, how can the claims based on them become convincing?
In addition, Olympics got rid of chromosome tests for both scientific and human right reasons. One example is Ewa Kłobukowska who was accused to have "one chromosome too many" and almost resulting her suicide. She didn't received any apology even after she gave birth to her son. If one wants to change or add tests to re-assess the qualification for a competition, that should be a science discussion to the system such as IOC and IBA rather than targeting on specific athletes and call them cheating. Moreover, if chromosome should be such a critical standards, why male athletes don't need to go through this type of exam? How are we going to deal with XYY case in male competition?
Both Lin and Khelif had gone through the exams for IOC and were invited to Olympics, so they should at least be respected as a qualified athletes. If there one have any problem, it should be the discussion of how to use current knowledge or tools to define a fair competition for the future. Unfortunately, what I seeing so far are most, if not all, cyber bullying targeting on the athletes. For example, calling them man despite they were born and live their whole life as women, calling them cheating or beating women without any convincing evidence to show they are men under current scientific or sports gender regulation, calling them don't LOOK LIKE women despite the standard solely base on Western beauty standard, calling them "too strong or too tall to be a woman" despite many other athletes in the ring with them were more muscular than them and many women IRL are taller than them. They have taken their responsibility to match the current regulation and science understanding to show they are qualified Olympic plays, so they didn't cheat and it was a fair game in the current era. They should get the respect they deserved not the current cyber bully and discrimination. If there is anything should be changed, it should be a discussion outside of them. Beside, few, if not none, of the country use chromosome test to decide a baby's gender, so most, if not all, female athletes in this Olympic probably don't know their chromosome type, too. Are you sure all other "female athletes" are actually the "women" in your imagination?
Finally, who am I? I am a biologist who stands for all human rights, wants a fair game, cannot stands for cyber bully, and knows both languages so I can understand and critical thinks for evidence from both sides. The english community is highly bias to saying from one side with a ton of statements are targeting on the athletes who did nothing wrong. I also agree that with current technology, we may all need to find a new way to decide what is a good matching for sport competition, however, cyber bullying people who play games honestly with current system is not the way to go. I really hope can see it and start talking about the science rather than trying to push another suicide causing by unreasonable bullying to individuals.
So an XY woman (identified from birth) has biological advantages over xx women when competing in many sports. But isn’t that also the case for some who has other genetic advantages. For example, certain racial groups have a genetic predisposition that allows them to run faster or be physically stronger.
In objecting to an XY woman taking advantage of her biological advantage, shouldn’t we also be insisting, in the name of fairness, that all competitors have no genetic advantage.
Of course that’s ridiculous. The truth is, that we can’t and shouldn’t be cherry picking one set of advantages over another.
We don't put tall muscular women in the male category, nor the short slim men in the female category.
It's not a matter of strenght, shape, race, sexuality, preferences, life style... it's a distinction based on a biological difference and the only fair thing to do. If you can apply you do, if you have conditions that don't allow you to, you cannot.
In this olympics is been established that a male's right to play a sport is more important than the female's right to not risk their life.
And yes, intersex are not women... or they would be women already
Testosterone is not a problem but 100 grams is a disqualification... Justice for Vignesh
Lin Yu-ting is a real woman; she was born female and has practiced boxing since middle school. The IBA website did not show any test information about who conducted the test on Lin. The IBA only provided the minutes from the board meeting, without explaining how she failed. The IBA was stripped of its recognition by the IOC long ago due to issues with referee fairness and financial management. Additionally, Lin Yu-ting did not always win in her matches; she lost to Nesthy Petecio in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics and was eliminated in the Round of 16.
This video is making some asumptions about the two athletes in question that i dont think we currently have evidence for.
Try asking Imane and Lin to provide it then. Until now they refuse to even talk about it. It would very easily end this issue. But they don't want to. I wonder why ...
IBA cannot provide details of it due to medical confidential info and private personal data laws.
@@YzgraDPVZ2 can u see your gender qualifications test 😂
@@YzgraDPVZ2 According to the Associate Press, "The IBA still refused to disclose nearly all details about the tests and their results or methodologies leading to the disqualifications of Khelif of Algeria and Lin of Taiwan". They won't even share their methodology 🤦♂️
IBA have used privacy as an excuse to refuse to provide evidence. All accusations are only one-sided. Moreover, they have been removed from the IOC and are not authoritative. People choose to believe that, they are not Think it's unreasonable?
@@龍但 Are you saying there are no data privacy laws in Europe? Hahahaa!
Racism, sexism, misogyny those are the real issues
Thankyou for clarifying this for everybody to understand. I knew this but whenever I comment on any of the videos that demonise these people I’m called woke at best. I have given up reacting but I find the discussion on UA-cam so disgusting.
I find men beating up women disgusting.
In the women's-football-team of Zambia play 3 men, the most famous is Barbra Banda, who was denied by Real Madrid, now playing in the woke US. Banda was banned from the last African Cup, but allowed for the World-Championship & the Olympics. This is ridiculous. But women seem to need male competition.
Yes, IOC and many international federations eligibility to compete against women is based only on passport...and I know where it's going. African genetic women will be excluded from sports. All you need to make money is a man, a fake birth certificate, passport and a backstory about hardship. Stupid, woke Westerners will buy it.
nope, women need for all the men to accept that the women's category is not for them.
@@AeronwenTrewent If You are right, election results would be different. The smashed Italian fermale boxer defended her male counterpart. You see, women want to be hit & trashed by men. It is their desire for brutal machos.
The Olympics is about competing on a level playing field and this is the reason for anti-doping requirements. The IOC is making a serious judgment error in allowing those queers to compete.
UA-cam is overflowing with influencers who are railing against these boxers and categorizing them as cheaters and straight up men. Many of the video titles are some version of MEN PUNCHING WOMEN or MEN GOING FOR GOLD IN WOMEN'S BOXING. It is very refreshing to see a video wherein the actual scientific possibilities are shown, without vitriol. There is no need to chase these boxers up a hill with torches, they are simply competitors. They could not compete as men at this level because they clearly do not have standard male physiology. This woman is correct that something should be done differently, because the boxers do have an advantage. But she correctly opines that this is a very difficult situation, with no easy answer. Anyone who says there is afn easy answer just doesn't understand what all is involved. There are not enough athletes with this condition to field a separate category, and the athletes with this condition have both an unfair advantage over women, and an unfair disadvantage to men. One point that literally nobody is making is that the test results that showed XY chromosomes for these boxers was published by Russia, via the IBA. Even if you don't consider all of the lies and propaganda coming out of Russia in it's illegal war on Ukraine, a look at Russias record of cheating in international athletics should raise question as to whether or not the reported test results are accurate at all.
"But she correctly opines that this is a very difficult situation, with no easy answer. " -- Not true. It is not difficult at all.
Saying that DSD is "difficult" implies that there is a "third sex" when there is NONE.
It's a simple matter really: If you have the Y, then you are guy. No exceptions.
If you are XY with DSD, then you are a man with DSD. Simple.
Woke gender fans simply LOVE to sow chaos.
There is only male and female. No more. No less.
Men with DSD are still men.
IT IS AN EASY ANSWER. Take the Dna test, give the experts the result, so they can look at it .Dont divert this Ioc.
Because of holding back the obvious XY results, both boxers and the Ioc looks like cheats. Like its political or something. U cannot identify as a women and box other XX females, simple as.
wiffle waffle wiffle... virtue signalling and empathy is what has got us into this mess.
Everyone keeps saying that this is a complex issue, and to be kind and empathetic.
How about we be kind and empathetic to the women not just being beaten up by these men, but losing their places and medals and dreams to them too.
It isn't complex. They're male, but may not have realised. We'll they've known since May 2022, and now we do too.
Get them out.
They realized it either at birth or puberty.
Actually, they were unaware during the 2022 competition. They were informed halfway through the event that they had failed the test and were disqualified by the IBA.
However, the IBA did not provide evidence of their disqualification before or after the incident. If athletes are not informed of their disqualification, how can they prove they meet the qualifications?
After the competition, the athletes underwent re-testing, but the IBA did not accept the results and refused to provide the previous test results.
You can check the IBA press conference from a few days ago-I find it very strange.
@user-tx7zy7so1d According to what I read about the condition, most people know either at birth due to the genitals and/or hormone tests, or at puberty due to going through a male puberty. Very rarely, someone finds out when they can't get pregnant, but there are other signs before then.
These two were highly likely aware well before any world competitions.
@@5BReiningHorses Regarding Lin Yu-ting, in Taiwan, every person’s ID number indicates their gender, and hers is listed as female.
She has participated in international competitions for over 15 years, and these competitions certainly require gender testing. Her tests over the past decade have shown no issues.
The IBA claimed at the recent press conference that her testosterone levels were too high, but the IBA had previously stated that they did not test for testosterone during the competition two years ago. Since they did not test for testosterone previously, why are they now publicly declaring her to be male?
@@Idawu-l4s Both were allowed to challenge the disqualification in appeal. One didn't bother, they other stopped the appeal. They may have learn from Caster that if you appeal the decision, you condition will be known and you won't be able to pretend again...
You only need to look at their physical appearance. Women just don’t build the same muscle size and shape that males do. Even their faces are incredibly masculine.
Thank you, this was very informative and succinctly explained a complex situation.
When the dust settles, it will be interesting to see who is willing to show some humility. So many armchair "experts" are either convinced that "they are men", simply because they supposedly have XY chromosomes, or that "they are biological women" simply because they were socialized that way (in a conservative Muslim country that makes no accommodation for intersex people!).
Those of us "in the middle" are trying to bridge this divide and acknowledge that even if they are intersex, they are human beings too and are not cheating even if they have an advantage over women with XX chromosomes and no androgenic conditions.
But the fact of the matter is NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE!
The IBA is not releasing the lab results, perhaps because of confidentiality agreements, or their own corruption. This can't be dismissed, certainly not after watching the IBA press conference today (Monday, Aug. 5th) which was far from confidence inspiring. Furthermore, the IOC doesn't do any kind of chromosomal gender testing, and their track record of foot-dragging and passing-the-buck on this issue is pathetic. The XX women runners at the London, Rio and Tokyo Olympics who lost medals to DSD XY46 runners in the 200m and 800m events have never been acknowledged or compensated even after World Athletics changed their policies in 2023.
So we'll never know.
We take it on confidence that these boxers are intersex based on IBA statements with no proof and that has initiated a whole series of reactions and polemics.
But what if it really is just a Russian hoax?
Intersex is sort of a misleading term. One is either male or female. IOC needs to bring back the cheek swab. If these boxers have testicles then they will be producing testosterone.
*At the press conference*
Reporter:
"The IBA has not provided evidence of their disqualification before or after the incident. If athletes are not informed of their disqualification, how can they prove they meet the qualifications?"
IBA:
"I love China, I often go to China, China is one of my favorite countries."
How interesting.
Based! Essentially we know nothing and 'everyone' is gaslighted with those two athletes as most obvious victims.
IBA have used privacy as an excuse to refuse to provide evidence. All accusations are only one-sided. Moreover, they have been removed from the IOC and are not authoritative. People choose to believe that, they are not Think it's unreasonable?
@4mins…”There’s no easy answer that makes everybody happy” I didn’t know making everybody happy was even possible never mind actually trying to do so. Maybe it’s just me but creating a society that accommodates every single person that might have some extremely rare disfunction, at the expense of someone who doesn’t, isn’t exactly fixing anything.
agree there is an easy answer. Men being sad is not a reason to allow then to beat up women.
This wouldn't happen in men sports
these is a possibility though, a man with XX chromosome? they should test everyone in the Olympic lol
@pighead5225 someone with XX could be presenting as a man; they would have zero chance of reaching elite level in boxing or almost any sport against biological men.
It seems the "science" is clear, and the ethics are also clear.
They got the balls to win all these games, what is the issue?
Thank you for that objective overview of complex realities.
Shouldn't be complex. It's a simple case of athletes gaming the system. The real problem is politics. The rules are simple; males compete with males, females compete with males. If you are an outlier, there needs to either be a policy to deal with that. Until then, you can't compete. The answer is never to put a person with an advantage due to their biological sex, in the ring with a person who does not. It's the core of why biological men and women don't compete.
Men and women often compete. Just not in the elite of popular sports.
Why do so many keep saying it's complicated?? XX = female, XY = male. It really is that simple folks.
The Olympic Games are an incredibly stressful contest for every athlete. Discriminating against a woman based on unfounded rumors about her chromosomes only makes things worse. If we allow this, we’d have to require every athlete to undergo chromosomal exams before competing-a ridiculous idea that goes against the very spirit of the Olympics.
The IBA’s baseless claims appear to be rooted in their bad reputation and corruption, turning these allegations into mere rumors. The controversy stirred up by JK, who spread these rumors, is not an act of wisdom but of foolishness. Adding to this, it’s telling that athletes who were bullied in the same event four years ago faced no such questioning, but now that they have a chance to win, they are suddenly targeted. This is clearly a political act that further proves the IBA’s corruption.
I find it frustrating you don’t get down to the facts specifically for these two people right off the bat. I won’t bother watching.
Do you address the Algerian athlete dropped their IBA appeal who found the person was a man? If the person really wasn’t a man, why drop the appeal?
These events teach us that another category needs to be created for Olympics.
Na it's called the men's division.
nope all humans are either male or female. We have categories that cover everyone. We dont need a category for men-who-are -sad-they-cant-win-fairly
Why did it take so long for such a clear explanation to come forth?
One fact is that IOC and IBA run different tests. IOC did do the SRY testing, it showed those two women aren’t “male”. Another fact is that IBA wasn’t able to prove their statement and was suspended.
YOU ARE LYING. The IOC never did any test. Not Sry, nor anything. Give us any evidence of that! The only thing IOC did is looking at the passport.
Are u also a woke lying rainbow warrior? Activist of some sort? Truth please, so lay it out here...
Outstanding explanation. Informational and Objective. Bravo!
Love these however you guys need to get a proper microphone. Sounds like you are coming live from a fishbowl.
Simple sorry if you’re in a category of few, they could just be banned period, none of these issue ever effects mens categories now does it!
> The IBA never said what kind of test it was, just that it wasn't a testosterone test, nor did they explain the results, citing privacy. In an interview with Russian state-owned media, the Russian president of the IBA said that they did a DNA test and found that Khelif had XY chromosomes, but again...look at the source, the audience, the track record of corruption, the timing...
> Plus, they did this test in 2022 and didn't have any issue with the results? They used the 2022 test as part of their basis for disqualifying her - even though they allowed her to compete in 2023, up until she beat a Russian athlete.
> So there's no evidence that she has higher testosterone. She competed in the 2020 Olympics without incident, even when other female athletes with high testosterone were withdrawn. And the IBA didn't administer a testosterone test.
> There's also no other information, testing, questions, or anything that she has talked about that would allude to any sort of chromosomal or hormonal difference. She was born and compete as woman and always has.
> People are diagnosing her with all kinds of conditions but there’s actually no evidence for any of it aside from one vague test that an extremely corrupt organization associated with Russia subjected her to when she beat a Russian athlete, the results of which were only discussed by the Russian president of the corrupt organization when he talked to Russian media.
The test was done twice in 2 different labs (neither of them Russian) and independently confirmed. The CAS has accepted them.
The desparation of pretending there is somethign shady because a Russian is the head of teh IBA is pretty desperate stuff.
Why are you so invested in men being able to punch women as a spectator sport?
@@AeronwenTrewent watch their conference they provided no proofs nor did they release the results or the test used, just talks. You are free to believe words of mouth since that suits your narrative.
The controversy is not new, we know the Olympics allowed biological male to compete against women. Caster Semenyan is a perfect example. About the boxers, the IBA's requirement for boxing into the woman's category is to hold xx chromosomes. We can assume that they are xy chromosomes since one didn't bother to appeal the decision regarding their disqualification and the other dropped the case. You would challenge such a decision if you had chromosomes xx, right? The Russian conspiracy is ridiculous, no Russian athlete had ever compete against them so what's the point?
@@end_of_the_world-v8g Imane did beat a Russian boxer in 2023 shortly after she was required to take another test. Which means she was allowed to participate before and in 2022 included. No official statement from the IBA states that it is a XY chromose issue just baseless headlines. They did a press conference promising to reveal detailed information which they did not. They haven't released any results nor disclosed the nature of the test. What they say is not a fact is an allegations That make no sense regarding the time-line of the events. If you trust that much a corrupt organization nobody knew about before, banned for ethical reasons previously ran by a mobster who got arrested for drug trafficking (yes) Post the result and test used here if you have read them. We all want to see that.
@@end_of_the_world-v8g Until I can see the test results or there's a reputable source - I will continue to follow what the IBA has released; which is that the two boxers *failed unspecified tests* and they were *not* tested for testosterone.
The "unspecified *tests is irrelevant if they can't say how they tested, or what the actual results of the test are.
If you dont like it, post the test process and results here.
This is like being born with 6 toes or deformed ear allows one to compete in paraOlympics.
Both paralympics and women sports are inherently problematic by creating seperate categories for people that can't win when competing with everyone else. So you have to draw boundaries and those are dependent on societal beliefs.
Life is harder when you're abnormal. You don't get to do the things every other person gets to do. That's life. No cheating pass just because of it.
It doesn't matter what you pretend to be, identify as, or wish you were, it matters what you are, and those two are Men.
XY = Male
XX = female
It is that simple
Be careful what you wish for. Could be used against your teams. Let me remind you that Brittney Griner of US women’s basketball has XY. She has Adam's apple. While in college, she broke an opposing player's nose in a fight.
Please don’t make judgement before you’ve seen proof of the so called XY test.
IBA cannot release their test details because of medical confidentiality and data privacy laws. But Imane and Lin can VERY easily end this issue by voluntarily releasing their test results but they refused to do so. In fact, Imane NEVER addressed IBA's findings despite several of his public statements and interviews. He just cries and cries some more. Read between the lines... Imane and Lin are cheaters.
I will never watch or attend the Olympics ever again, as long as the IOC is compromising women.
When did we decide that certain people get to do everything they want. We all have limitations and insisting we be allowed to do whatever we want is selfish and narcissistic.
no one knows if these boxers even has DSD or if they are just trying to con everyone. All this was based on the IBA saying they both had XY chromosome. thats all that we really know. Some people had assumed DSD because of having a way to explain why they have XY chromosomes but assumed to be assigned female at birth. the IBA didnt say they had DSD. the IOC did not give any gender tests and no one has seen a birth certificate (which could be faked). Most of what is said is all conjecture. The IBA did hold a press conference and confirmed their findings of XY chromosome.
HOW do you KNOW ??? that the Boxer was born with a vagina ?? WHY no BREAST Development ??? Does the boxer have a penis ???? without these answers you cannot really say what you say is true - your genitals are your sex - INTERSEX does not EXIST - you are one or the other
But even the statement from IBA she has an XY chromosome (which is a wrong in itself, because ther is no such thing as a XY chromosome, there is an X chromosome and a Y chromosome) is not beyond reasonable doubt. First of all because IBA refuses to share the test and test results and second because the most likely used test does not test for a Y chromosome but for a second X chromosome. Assuming there are no Klinefelters and Turners she apparantly should have a Y chromosome if the second X is absent.
@@ouwebrood497 um there is XX and XY lol maybe the reason they dont share the test itself is because they have confidentiality laws. the fact is they did tests and IOC did not. What they did say it wasnt about testosterone it was about XY chromosome. Also its very possible kelif has DSD which means the anatomy is deformed to the point that gender is ambiguous. and its not uncommon in those situations they will assign the person as female at birth even if they have XY chromsome. but if its XY its male regardless of what the anatomy says. And if the person was assign female by the doctor of course the family is going to raise it as female. so just because they were assigned and raised that way doesnt mean anything. IBA says XY chromosome and male. they confirmed it in their press conference a few days ago.
@@ouwebrood497 the real question is why wont the IOC do any tests to put this controversy to rest one way or the other? they have no interest. The IOC seem to be politically motivated to not do so. driven more by identity than biology. All they got to do is swab test spit or blood test. its non invasive and simple. if they have XY they are male pure and simple.
@@metatron333ascension Why should they? They refuse to get gaslighted and rightly so. There is no sincere claim that Khelif is a man and even no claim she has XY for that matter. Only two things are a corrupt organisation that doesn't want to disclose some tests and another female boxer that gave up within a minute with the excuse she was fighting a man.
its not just xy vs yy...or hormone levels ..its the whole brain is wired differently from conception, plus the whole bone & muscle structure is different between male & female....no amount of pills or surgery will ever transition one sex to another.
But IBA can't provide the envidence that lin yu ting has XY chromosomes, isn't that concerning?
IBA did not provide evidence of their disqualification before or after the incident. If athletes are not informed of their disqualification, how can they prove they meet the qualifications?
After the competition, the athletes underwent re-testing, but the IBA did not accept the results and refused to provide the previous test results.
You can check the IBA press conference from a few days ago-I find it very strange.
IBA cannot release their test details because that is both (1) medical confidential info, and (2) private personal data. Both are protected by laws esp in Europe and US. Imane and Lin can VERY easily end this issue by voluntarily releasing their own test results but they refused to do so. In fact, Imane NEVER addressed IBA's findings despite several of his statements and interviews over the last few weeks. Thus, IBA's official findings remain unrefuted.
Also, in IBA's presscon 5-Aug Paris, they revealed that Algeria and Taiwan officially ordered them NOT to release the test results of their athletes merely hours before the presscon. And thus, as IBA themselves have said: "... read between the lines." It is quite clear who is telling the truth, and who is trying desperately to cover it all up and muddle it with woke gender nonsense.
Imane and Lin are XY. Thus, they are MEN.
@@uchniezt1212 you know what , I don't even think u are following this issue.
1.IBA "CLAIM" Taiwawn ordered them not to release the test result which is not true becuase they still can't provide the evidence that Taiwan put pressure on IBA. And also the Chinese IBA which is the official boxing association in Taiwan said they didn't have any contact with them, if IBA insist this point please provide the
evidence.
2.respond to why they didn't prove by themself
if theses two athletes were found to have problem and why the fuck IBA didn't tell them. And then IBA didn't ask them to provide the proof before the 2023 world championship began. not only but they are young girl,how the fuck they supposed to know they got issue after testing . how would they provide the proof with the test with no details.
AND FUN FACTS:
IBA's major financial sponsor is a russian company
,and it turns out:
2018 IBA World Championships Female
2019 IBA World Championships Female
2022 IBA World Championships Female
2023 IBA World Championships Female until semifinals when she beat a Russian boxer then she was male
@@uchniezt1212 nah nah you don't even follow this issue . you can found it on many social media or even the IBA press conference.i think u will stop bullying these two athelets after you guys deep into this issue.
i know there are many shitty woke culture around the world but not this one dude.
@@eminem-lc8kj Facts not feelings.
Has Imane ever revealed his karyotype tests? No? I wonder why ...
IBA is banned from IOC for reasons
Why don’t anyone question the authenticity of the XY report first? They refuse to provide any details
Why does everyone just believe whatever they said?
Why all of a sudden, boxers who have fought in this sport for YEARS had been questioned about their SEX?
Why the interview for IBA explaining, turns out providing no actual evidence and emphasizing that they love China and all these strange things?
I know the complexity of defining sex is extremely hard
And it’s not fair to let ppl having different body composition to compete
BUT before discussing all these
In this case, it’s more a political issue….
No. There needs to be some gatekeeping or we may as well just get rid of women's sports. A cheek swab would give info on chromosomes.
They have their own category men.
I agree with the prohibition of this type of DSD competing in women's sports and think your arguments were spot on.
However, I wouldn't give such a quick pass to those who hopped on this to denounce them as trans. Also, the IBA was a corrupt Russian influenced org that only disqualified the boxer after she beat a Russian boxer and has never actually produced the test results. At this point I believe it is only reasonable speculation that these two boxers have DSD.
It shouldn't be about medals or politics. It should be about the safety of the athletes. If genetics give one athlete a dangerous advantage over another, then they should not be allowed to compete in that division. In combat sports, that is why we have separate divisions for men and women as well as weight divisions. Common sense.
Weight classes make sense, but gender separation is a remnant of prehistoric stereotypes. The first generation that will not be brainwashed with gender stereotypes will prove that strength is a question of training, which is very much affected by gender stereotypes ("You 're a girl, go play with dolls, sports are for boys").
Great work explaining in scientific detail but easy to understand.