That cat hair is still attached to my face to this day, it lives there now. The joys of having 2 long haired rag dolls. Just a quick note, around 21:00 I said that geforce cards will run all Autodesk generally faster than pro cards... there's nuance to this too. The pro cards tend to have more VRAM (video memory/frame buffer) so if you're doing something like a heavy Vred viz scene, the pro cards could be beneficial due to their greater quantity of VRAM. Whether they have superior memory bandwidth than geforce, dunno.
The high end Quadro cards are slightly different than GeForce cards - for example, the RTX 4000 Ada and above have 2 video encoder units rather than the 1 on GeForce cards. But that really only affects video editing and compositing. The general rule is that the Quadro drivers sacrifice guaranteed speed for guaranteed output accuracy. A GeForce doing raytracing will be faster at rendering the frames than an equivalent Quadro, but some pixels may be incorrect. A Quadro will be slower, but every pixel will be correct. And the drivers may use more precision in the calculations. It's basically the same reliability vs. speed tradeoff between workstation and gaming laptops.
The reason why workstations are double or triple the price of the equivalent gaming laptop is not just because of construction. Someone buying a single unit is not the main customer base for it. Most of the time its large companies buying thousands of them along with monitors, docking stations, etc. And as a result they will probably get a bulk discount.
Your argument is valid and I agree with what you said , But it feels like a monopoly, It's like you are a freelancer or a student then the prices are a fraction of what large businesses should pay for the same service , It's a convenience and a more valuable proposition that cost 2 times the price , So in my opinion it's over priced for sure , If it's 20% more expensive then it's fine , but just because it's more convenient to buy the professional laptops for almost worst specs and to decrease the failure ratio by 10% at best , the companies that made these laptops gain 2 times of what they gain on gaming laptops , Cost for consumers do not translate to the cost for manufacturing .
Oh I've no argument over how over-priced they are, 11k pro vs 5k gaming is ridiculous. I don't have the full facts or data on exactly why they charge what they charge, all I can do is discuss why it's potentially justifiable to pull your pants down and take it.
Honestly the Lenovo Legion 7 looks like a good workstation replacement gaming laptop. Doesn't really look like a gaming laptop, disable the RGB lighting and I could see it easily fitting in a corporate setting. Aluminum case with an RTX 3080 with 16GB VRAM would be pretty good for any 3D application that doesn't require a professional GPU. When my Precision 7740 bites the dust will definitely look at a gaming laptop like that.
im running a hp victus with the 3080ti and a i7 works great for cam software. i bought it because i couldnt stand the under specd garbage they gave me at work.
Excellent explanation! I'm a one-man-band and recently bought a gaming laptop, I assume the risk (and the noise) but your point is very well sustained and I respect it for that, and (asap) I will separate gaming (machine) from working (machine).
I build my own workstations, have for years. And you are absolutely correct, as a one man band, I am ok with the risk over cost. I also understand the necessity of a multi user environments need of reliability in their hardware. Not sure what the tipping point is that makes a client a risk to cost decision. Great job as usual. God bless, stay well.
I'm @ 6.20; the noise issue is a major thing. I run several beasts of Desktop's and paid for the silence and dependability. Then you have to balance the programs that you use on top of that..I bought a 2k "VR Gaming laptop "machine a few years ago and it is so noisy and runs so hot it's genuinely my worst purchase ever. This a huge decision for everyone.
I can really appreciate what you are saying. I have crashed only once in my life, a real crash. I had to go to my computer guy and he was able to capture almost all my files from the hard drive. So I learned how to deal with that. If you are a big time firm I can see how it would hurt your company. I have a backup system that I run only when I have a completed file. That way I don't have many hours on it. My biggest problem is once in a while my computer will close down and lose my work for the last 2 hours. so I am constantly saving my work. I hate losing 2 hours of work done. Thank you for your time. Later.
I understand the software certification and lack of experience on the end user argument, however there are a few caveats. You could simply buy two computers for every other employee and have a stock of backups for the inevitable yet rare instance of a failure and you still would be saving a huge amount of $$$. Simply hand someone a new computer vs troubleshooting and sending the computer back to Dell for a possible replacement. The responsibility also falls on the IT department to spec. a computer properly. I was recently given a Dell Precision 5570 as an architectural BIM manager with a Quadro A2000 card with only 8GB of v-ram. Most of my downtime is now due to lack of performance waiting on the computer to process work versus a complete failure. Those few additional minutes or even hours can add up in to huge cost. This probably is more of a rant against my company's IT department; I just wanted a Razer which is 2x more powerful at 1/3 the cost.
It's a perfectly reasonable point you're making, one that I've made previously, but I still wouldn't do it. Why? Cos if and when that failure happens and someone loses work, and lets say a project gets delayed, nobody will care about any of the cost savings leading up to that point or the fact that there's some swap system in place... the business would hyper focus on the impact to the project and that's all that would matter at the time. The client I'm referring to here does have immediately available spare units, but that doesn't negate the impact of the failure which just happened and the lost work, a swap system just gets him/her up and running again quicker. They may have a new laptop within a day, but they may have missed a deadline. To be clear though, I'd never suggest a CAD engineer be given a 11k laptop that thing was ridiculously overkill. At the end of the day here, this is all just my opinion and take on it, people are free to do what they want and make their own content projecting their preferred methods if they feel that strongly about it. But what I'm suggesting here is simply to follow to software vendor suggestions for hardware, I'm not giving out an edgy bold roll-of-the-dice strategy or owt like that.
@@Neil3D Fair point. I guess I'm coming from a perspective where my work is 100% cloud based and the computer is strictly a processing unit. I have had the Dell fail (graphics crashes and processing freezes) and I'm able to jump on my personal built desktop and finish something. I don't have a lot of experience where a device failure would cause me to miss a deadline. As mentioned I think your point is valid and my frustrations really are directed to the IT departments who are so fixated on "approved specs" that performance is left on the table which in itself can cause delays. That said I should take this opportunity to thank you so much for your inventor walkthroughs and lessons. I truly have learned so much from those and have been able to expand my skill portfolio
Difference between the Dell laptop owners and gaming laptop owners is the ability to go under the hood and tinker with the engine. I would choose the gaming laptop or even the gaming rig and tinker away all I want. Also I would not go to "MSI" for the drivers...I can find it myself on the net for the different components. And I do run Inventor, Autocad and Solidworks on my rigs without an issue!!
Right - the tradeoff is speed & noise vs. reliability, updates, & build quality And if you know where to shop, you can get big discounts on the workstations (i have seen Zbooks discounted from $8,200 to $4,200 or $3,000 to $1,500 at B&H Photo Video, and almost the same discount from HP's site when there are sales) And good workstations have support for 5+ years. My $1,500 Zbook Studio G3 from 2016 only stopped getting support in 2022. And it came with 3 year onsite service - a friend with the Zbook 17 G3 (also around $1,500) actually called HP and they came to his house and replaced the motherboard for free. And my Zbook still looks new after 6 years. If you don't need the speed 100%, you can get a low priced workstation and use it for twice as long.
aaronbredon- i prefer workstations over gaming laptops, doesn't matter what i use it for, however, new ones are too pricey for what you get, even the used refurbished dell precisions are expensive, i do like the asus zens and vivos but they don't have enough ports and i don't like the locations all on the sides. my 2011-12 precision 7 m4600 is made of all metal, thick and a brick, loaded with all kinds of ports and the bigger cable ports are on the back which is important to me, anyway, i prefer to stick with precisions but not paying for them, i can get a gaming laptop with right ports and locations with same to more higher performance parts for much cheaper about the same price for certain used precisions, i just don't like all the xmas tree lights, alien heads, and racer x emblems all over my laptop. catch 22/stuck. where are you finding these deals? is bh the only place you know of? if you don't mind me asking? the only laptops i can find with correct specs, ports/location are down to lenovo and acer, lenovo is cleaner, acer has some gamer aspects but both are great. xmg is the only one that fits the bill but kinda pricey, not as much as precisions, btw- i hate the new precision 5 series, either 3 or 7 for me, but i will not pay new for that. thanks.
B&H sells camera and video equipment for everyone from amateurs to professionals. Their main store is half a NYC midtown city block, so they are kind of a department store for photography and related stuff. They buy in quantity, so they get good deals, and they pass those deals on to buyers. Be aware, they close for Jewish holidays. The other site is HP itself - you have to know or figure out how to get to the workstation part of the site - searching for ZBook or workstation often works. They have pretty big sales every so often - I have seen sales that wound up being 50% or more off on higher end configurations. Last year, their Black Friday sale was over 50% off, but the laptop I was looking at was still around $4,000 between the CPU, the color balanced display, the video card, and the RAM. The HP ZBook models tend to have the ports on the side, and they have almost as many Thunderbolt ports as Apple. A Thunderbolt dock is one of the best ways to connect them. Their early Thunderbolt docks were a bit flaky if you had 2 DisplayPort monitors hooked up at once. It is true that currently Workstation laptops are more expensive than gaming laptops, but how many gaming laptops allow you to replace the video card or take 4 SSD storage devices? I will have to replace my 2018 ZBook Studio g3 soon - the service period is ending, and it doesn’t support Windows 11. But 3 years of full in house warranty, and 3 additional years of parts availability, plus still looking almost new for $1,500 was well worth it. I had bought a $700 consumer laptop around the same time for gaming, and the HP simply ran rings around it. Currently I am looking at the ZBook Fury 16 (G10 or G11), as the smaller models both don’t have the same capabilities I need, and aren’t enough cheaper to be worth considering. Note that you can order a ZBook customized exactly how you want, and the sale still applies. You can skimp on RAM and SSD if you wish, as those are easy to upgrade later.
FIRST: Lots of respect for being honest and acting with integrity regarding this industry conundrum, thanks for putting truth ahead of marketing and being a sponsored youtube puppet. Great follow up video, these are some of the reasons why I still love my Precision M4700 which despite the age still remains useable and relevant. Backing your product is great, but that should be in addition to providing optimum designs. Dell have dropped the ball around power and thermal throttling as have their peers (based on what I've read online), specifically with the 12th and 13th gen chips. I have been struggling to find a suitable upgrade and have since decided to jump on a gaming rig from Lenovo, it seems their Legion 7i Pro Gen 8 manages to adequately cool current gen chips and packaged it into what looks like an almost workstation grade chassis. I have a 2018 Precision workstation packed with Quadro, it is great and always reliable, but I did notice a drop in build quality from my Optiplex 9010. The 9010 was a brilliant workhorse, built like a tank and had higher quality parts (USB, DVD, higher efficiency PSU etc...). It is a shame the Dell cost cutting has now moved into R&D as they were leaders in performance and reliability "back in the day".
One additional factor might be whether the laptop stays on the desk all the time or whether the user travels a lot. Gaming laptops don't tend to be designed for frequent travel, being hauled through airports, etc. As for the part about losing 2 weeks of work due to a laptop failing, not sure how it's in other fields, but in IT related fields projects usually use a central source code repository to prevent such situations.
I have had a Dell precision Mobile 7520 for 5 years. Within a month of me having the laptop it was completely opened to replace the outer cover behind the screen. Then after a couple of months the outer cover protecting the battery side was also replaced. Pathetic build quality of the dell Precision 7520 and horrible experience with customer care executives at dell.
The main thing with the pro GPUS are that they get quality controlled to a higher standard and are normally the best that the silicone die produces. Due to this they are less prone to errors and failure to the supplier can charge more for the product. @adoredtv has a lot of videos explained the how the dies are manufacture and the yield of the die etc.
I bought my son an 10nm 8core/16thread xeon Dell 7560 RTX3000 on clearance directly from dell, due to one generation back at the time, with extended 5yr Pro Warranty for $1400 US dollars. Ripped out the 8gb ram and through in 128gb and Ripped out 256ssd and threw in 2x2tb Linux/Windows dual boot and I am 2k into laptop, that I do not need to support for the tenure of his PHD program. Dell (Vendor) support came to his University next business day to replace a noisy fan :)
I use an Alienware M18 R1 as a professional machine. Previously I had a Precision 7670 with 3080Ti but it can only really sustain 30W CPU + 80W GPU before thermal throttling. With the M18 the aesthetics are good enough with all RGB disabled. I do not use AWCC as it is too unpredictable and instead have an open source control tool that reverse engineered the control protocols. I also had to repaste it myself to fix out of the box quality control issues. Windows 10 22H2 unofficially works. Technically you can use the new 48GB SODIMMs in it to get a maximum of 96GB memory. Having back-side power and TB4 ports for a tidy dock setup is actually an upgrade over the latest Precision design too for me. I feel like its a bit superior to the GT77 and other gaming laptops as it does have onsite warranty (up to four years) and periodic driver and bios updates.
^THIS - I'm looking into doing the same. I'd love to see a head to head with the MSI version with TCO and support thoughts (I'd still trust Dell a bit more on this). The m18 comes with a proper 330W power supply - why Dell doesn't use for this for the Precision is beyond me. The GPU most intensive items I plan to use it for as a maker are Solidworks (easy - that works fine for me at QHD on an ancient unsupported driver on an M4800), and DaVinci Resolve (which doesn't). Should be fine at about 1/2 the cost or less.
@@soupcuber4049 bad choice fr, neither is that professional laptop, nor a good gaming laptop, buy the lenovo legion 7i. Thats professional and has a 4060, and its price is reasonable
I have been using an AMD system for a few years now that I built. Currently a 7700x and a 7900XTX.. Have had absolutely zero issues with anything ive done with any of the Autodesk products. I think the pro stuff is severely over marketed.
@20.11..One man bands :)(Contractors)...when starting out; a gaming machine will get you started; but it will not secure the "Big Contract"; I set 2 dell Desktop towers on fire before I learned the hard way.
15:36 If you buy 100 laptops and they are $5k cheaper per unit, you're saving the company Half A Million Dollars. If you throw them away and you buy a new one every 2 years instead of every 4 years, (for the $5k vs $11k case) you've saved the company $100k..! And you are using better and newer hardware for the second 2 year period. Also, screen going off, boot drive not detected, no updates to the firmware after 2 years..? Really..? Not normal, man. Workstation laptops exist purely for the use case of the guy choosing them NOT being the guy paying for them. The laptop manufacturer makes twice the profit and whoever chose that machine can say "...Wasn't Me..." That is the ONLY advantage... P.S. Any Nvidia gaming card can run the Studio drivers now. Certified drivers. All of them... So, you can now stop saying that.
Nvidia might claim to test their studio drivers on "Autodesk" - Autodesk what? But you don't go to Nvidia when your program bugs out, you go to Autodesk or Dassult etc And they don't list GeForce hardware as being approved, therefore the studio drivers are not on the support list. www.autodesk.co.uk/support/system-requirements/certified-graphics-hardware/inventor No GeForce or mention of studio drivers. So I can and will continue to say this until Autodesk explicitly list GeForce hardware on their certified hardware page.
I have seen many niggling issues with uncertified/Hardware and drivers while working on Inventor. It wastes a lot of time, but most importantly, it breaks my chain of thinking process. Saving 6K over five years is less than a dollar per day, and can a person save more than a dollar per hour by using an expensive workstation? If a person paid $50 per hour then he needs to save one minute per hour to recover that investment. My experience is, it is worth it!
But do you save on banking on potentially less down time or do you save by actually processing the work faster? No mention of the financial gains of faster work and larger throughput. Now as far as Inventor goes, I only run the student license back in 2016. But I did use it quite a bit, on a Radeon HD7970 I had bought used for $60 and it had no stability issues whatsoever... And the second fan never turned on like it did when gaming. Also, correct me if I'm wrong here Neal, but SOLIDWORKS allows you to use the viewport rendering option and a few other bells and whistles with Studio drivers. Most video editing software also have features that can be supported on the Studio drivers and not on the gaming ones on GTX and RTX hardware. If I am not mistaken in that, maybe you should change the title of your video to gaming v workstation FOR INVENTOR.
@@ExMachinaEngineering is easier to say if I use it for a month. I use it at least 10 hours a day, Six days a week. And Gaming cards didn't work for me. Do gaming PCs come with a 3 to 5 yrs warranty? HPWorkstation comes with 3 yr free warranty, and with Lenovo, you can buy up to 5 yrs.
Keep the in-depth explanations. Sometimes it's no explanation at all if want the express version. If you don't need portability, pound for pound you'll get better performance from a desktop. You always pay a premium for compactness.
If only we held the software technology vendors to the same candle as hardware vendors. Software issues seem to be a far greater risk to project deliver. With power and heat produced with 12th and 13th gen CPUs, desktop are again back to be the workhorses for me. I am still surprised remote desktops in dedicated IT hardware rooms have not become the norm. If asked to build an IT solution for an AEC consultant, that would be my recommendation.
We got HP laptops on our business, the more professional CAD laptops seem to have the most issues. When we just got them we had a lot of issues with sound and bluetooth drivers and in the end about half of them had to be fully reinstalled. They are also quite noisy. On their desktop workstation we also have had 2 quadros fail and fans making bad noises. After replacing the GPU the system took forever to actually torn on ect. Ect. Personally i would avoid HP, i think Lenovo / sometimes Dell is in general a good go to brand.
I have a DELL PRECISION M4800 and DELL PRECISION 7710... Honestly to say i receive driver updates until now. My DELL machines have never failed. Lastly i like the build quality of dell.
I am one of those people where the buck stops at me, I am holding a 10 grand + quotation from Dell with a core i9 ,rtx 5000 ada , 128 GB ram but am completely lost now. I thought the whole point of these workstations was performance and reliability but reading all of the stuff about low performance, limited voltage and thermal throttling is just frustratingly confusing and dissapointing. Wtf should I do ? cant buy a desktop box, I travell 5 counties to develop buissiness and meetings all the while creating product designs and now cant buy these workstation because they certainly look like waste of precious money and no body has a clue about running software like nx and ansys on a 4090 laptop. Please help ... ill lose my mind.
Would be nice to have a video with your opinion on those new Ryzen 3D processors, even more now that there is one for laptops as well. Does it affect Autodesk Inventor performance?
i am not a professional engineer but what i can summarize that if you work alone then you will be pretty much fine with gaming laptop and a noise cancelling headphones. But for professional enterprise that is not a option at all.
Thanks, Neil, Great work mate. I have a question; I plan to buy a new laptop. As per your earlier Videos, I am trying to get the fastest CPU, but the base frequency is low. What would work better, I9-12950 HX with RTX A5500 or I9-13950 HX with RTX5000 Ada? I can't see any Drivers for RTX5000 Ada; not sure it will use the same drivers as RTX5000. It is a personalised request, so I much appreciate your reply.
tbh, my legion 5 pro on normaal mode (not performance) is quieter and faster than my hp zbook g7. and it doesent thermal shutdown since its able to cool itself. where as when the zbook isent on a level surface but somthing that in the slightest blocks the inlet and it does thermal shutdown. edit, I have had contact with hp about my school laptop, witch was bought with the extenden warranty and "proffesional" support. to honnest your discripion about the gigabite laptop sums the support up nicely, it was out for week due to a corrupted windows update.
Hello. I can see that you are bringing the gaming laptops in a good light, and as a dell user I want to upgrade to a precision equipped with a quadro(probably 12th gen or older, definitely second hand). I am using my laptop ONLY for Inventor, Fusion, Autocad, Matlab also robotics simulation software that require better gpu (I am curerently running on a latitude integrated gpu) and i have seen how fusion, for example, runs on a geforce rtx 3070 with intel's i7 12500 and I was not impressed due to heating. Also, there is another thing about such laptops that I don't like: the lid is wobbly, they are made of plastic, and really noisy. I am currently using i5 8365u on a highly portable latitude which I like, mostly because of the last aspect. I am willing to pay form 700 euros to 1000 euros on second hand precisions. What do you think and what do you suggest. I am planning to use it for the next 3 to 4 years. Thanks in advance! Great videos!
Hi, Really like your to the point and insightful videos, may it tech or Austodesk. Must say the watch 4 no gap band looks really good. That dark brown with white stiching . Would you mind recommending where you bought that from? Cheer!
I don't think you have the correct understanding of a VM. there is a difference between remoting into a computer and running a virtual machine on your own computer. a VM is like a separate OS running inside your computer.
Is intel A770 graphics card any good for moderate level CAD & rendering tasks? I can accept a few crashes, but I don't want to fall into swamp of constant experimentation. Its been more than a year since Intel launched ARC, hope the drivers are tuned good enough for CAD.
HAHA i used nvidia and Amd, i currently am using wx3200 for autocad and loving it, i had some strange issues with the nvidia cards driver crashing and zooming issues then i figured why not, lets try havent looked back yet... i just bought a 6700xt for autocad as well, working great, but tonight i decided to put in the wx3200 again just to see if some refreshing issues in autocad happen with the pro card and its less issues with a pro card then a gaming card but like you said the gaming has the power, but the Pro cards have the stability.. and when you are working you want the stability and the line to show up. XD
Owning a Dell Precision and as a small business owner, I tend to agree - with Dell you get onsite next day support (the other guys don't do that) - however my dog crap 11th gen still screams.
They do, but trust me, it's still like a delicate fanny fart compared to the obnoxious tornado that comes out of these gaming units. I could hear it from 3 rooms away in my house through a double skinned solid brick wall. Dell have strict corporate guidelines on how loud they allow their systems to get, and how hot on the exterior, the rest don't give a toot. I measured over 60C touch temp on the Titan last year which is more than enough to cause actual skin burn
@24.30 Thanks for the input.. As a one man band; all info is good info.Got another expensive ass machine ; but saved a few pounds going with AMD.DOnt want to bash them; but wtf?
Dell Alienware should be the point of comparison - Support is great under EBA and noise can be managed over balanced mode in alienware’s command center 🔇
Every gaming laptop has a balanced mode, but what's the logic in buying a flagship top tier system then intentionally slowing it down just to try and keep it quiet.
What makes you think MSI is a good example for generalization of gaming laptop? It seems like today’s landscape in this category varies enormously in terms of thermal solution, built quality, noise production and attenuation.
Heeeey Crossy, you might remember me from your tna days. We've just gone to the Lenovo P16 Gen 1 laptops for the engineering team. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on them. We've had a lot of teething issues, a lot of it being software related. The graphics card is an absolute beast, should destroy most CAD tasks, but is it designed for CAD or just high end gaming? Due to the issues, the team have been having, it's suitability is a hot topic. Because its Lenovo we've had good support, but up to the point that there's nothing physically wrong with the laptops. Also, we've finally upgraded from 2018 to 2023 Autodesk suite so quite the jump. I head up the distribution team now so any tips, pointers, training (budget pending) would be appreciated. Alex
It basically brand name selling, apple does it with iPhone, thats the best example. Hipsters are known to always want to show others how much £ they can spend. All there is too it.
We run Lenovo P15, they are all plastic and fans go full speed all time. Absolutely horrible for the users with the noice... The new Lenovo P14s even worse..
Yah this isn't a dig at MSI, I just had one on hand and used that as a symbolic article to represent "gaming units". But yea, like I said, many people will run gaming units for years and never have a problem in fact the majority will never have an issuie. But that one time...
I worked in 2 midium company (6-10 workstation) like Mechanical designer with Inventor and each one had HP Z4 (W2225, RTX A4000, 64GB RAM, ecc...). In the first company, every morning, when i started my PC i putted my password on it and it crashed for no reason (IT manager had confirmed that no reason). Now, where i am, when i design more faster than the software can elaborate, it crash (IT manager update all driver, software, ecc...). First of all, I can’t explain myself why a workstation like Z4 suggested by Autodesk, have a lot of problem to support Inventor. Second of all, I don’t find myself in what you said about the stability of workstations. I never find a workstation that was stable to run Autodesk Inventor (unless you click/movment at minute). Thanks for your video!
That cat hair is still attached to my face to this day, it lives there now. The joys of having 2 long haired rag dolls.
Just a quick note, around 21:00 I said that geforce cards will run all Autodesk generally faster than pro cards... there's nuance to this too. The pro cards tend to have more VRAM (video memory/frame buffer) so if you're doing something like a heavy Vred viz scene, the pro cards could be beneficial due to their greater quantity of VRAM. Whether they have superior memory bandwidth than geforce, dunno.
The high end Quadro cards are slightly different than GeForce cards - for example, the RTX 4000 Ada and above have 2 video encoder units rather than the 1 on GeForce cards. But that really only affects video editing and compositing.
The general rule is that the Quadro drivers sacrifice guaranteed speed for guaranteed output accuracy.
A GeForce doing raytracing will be faster at rendering the frames than an equivalent Quadro, but some pixels may be incorrect.
A Quadro will be slower, but every pixel will be correct. And the drivers may use more precision in the calculations.
It's basically the same reliability vs. speed tradeoff between workstation and gaming laptops.
The reason why workstations are double or triple the price of the equivalent gaming laptop is not just because of construction. Someone buying a single unit is not the main customer base for it. Most of the time its large companies buying thousands of them along with monitors, docking stations, etc. And as a result they will probably get a bulk discount.
Your argument is valid and I agree with what you said , But it feels like a monopoly, It's like you are a freelancer or a student then the prices are a fraction of what large businesses should pay for the same service , It's a convenience and a more valuable proposition that cost 2 times the price , So in my opinion it's over priced for sure , If it's 20% more expensive then it's fine , but just because it's more convenient to buy the professional laptops for almost worst specs and to decrease the failure ratio by 10% at best , the companies that made these laptops gain 2 times of what they gain on gaming laptops , Cost for consumers do not translate to the cost for manufacturing .
Oh I've no argument over how over-priced they are, 11k pro vs 5k gaming is ridiculous. I don't have the full facts or data on exactly why they charge what they charge, all I can do is discuss why it's potentially justifiable to pull your pants down and take it.
@@Neil3D Cost difference will come from the sale volume I suppose!
Honestly the Lenovo Legion 7 looks like a good workstation replacement gaming laptop. Doesn't really look like a gaming laptop, disable the RGB lighting and I could see it easily fitting in a corporate setting. Aluminum case with an RTX 3080 with 16GB VRAM would be pretty good for any 3D application that doesn't require a professional GPU. When my Precision 7740 bites the dust will definitely look at a gaming laptop like that.
im running a hp victus with the 3080ti and a i7 works great for cam software. i bought it because i couldnt stand the under specd garbage they gave me at work.
Excellent explanation!
I'm a one-man-band and recently bought a gaming laptop, I assume the risk (and the noise) but your point is very well sustained and I respect it for that, and (asap) I will separate gaming (machine) from working (machine).
I build my own workstations, have for years. And you are absolutely correct, as a one man band, I am ok with the risk over cost. I also understand the necessity of a multi user environments need of reliability in their hardware. Not sure what the tipping point is that makes a client a risk to cost decision. Great job as usual. God bless, stay well.
I'm @ 6.20; the noise issue is a major thing. I run several beasts of Desktop's and paid for the silence and dependability. Then you have to balance the programs that you use on top of that..I bought a 2k "VR Gaming laptop "machine a few years ago and it is so noisy and runs so hot it's genuinely my worst purchase ever. This a huge decision for everyone.
I can really appreciate what you are saying. I have crashed only once in my life, a real crash. I had to go to my computer guy and he was able to capture almost all my files from the hard drive. So I learned how to deal with that. If you are a big time firm I can see how it would hurt your company. I have a backup system that I run only when I have a completed file. That way I don't have many hours on it. My biggest problem is once in a while my computer will close down and lose my work for the last 2 hours. so I am constantly saving my work. I hate losing 2 hours of work done. Thank you for your time. Later.
I understand the software certification and lack of experience on the end user argument, however there are a few caveats. You could simply buy two computers for every other employee and have a stock of backups for the inevitable yet rare instance of a failure and you still would be saving a huge amount of $$$. Simply hand someone a new computer vs troubleshooting and sending the computer back to Dell for a possible replacement. The responsibility also falls on the IT department to spec. a computer properly. I was recently given a Dell Precision 5570 as an architectural BIM manager with a Quadro A2000 card with only 8GB of v-ram. Most of my downtime is now due to lack of performance waiting on the computer to process work versus a complete failure. Those few additional minutes or even hours can add up in to huge cost. This probably is more of a rant against my company's IT department; I just wanted a Razer which is 2x more powerful at 1/3 the cost.
It's a perfectly reasonable point you're making, one that I've made previously, but I still wouldn't do it. Why? Cos if and when that failure happens and someone loses work, and lets say a project gets delayed, nobody will care about any of the cost savings leading up to that point or the fact that there's some swap system in place... the business would hyper focus on the impact to the project and that's all that would matter at the time. The client I'm referring to here does have immediately available spare units, but that doesn't negate the impact of the failure which just happened and the lost work, a swap system just gets him/her up and running again quicker. They may have a new laptop within a day, but they may have missed a deadline.
To be clear though, I'd never suggest a CAD engineer be given a 11k laptop that thing was ridiculously overkill.
At the end of the day here, this is all just my opinion and take on it, people are free to do what they want and make their own content projecting their preferred methods if they feel that strongly about it. But what I'm suggesting here is simply to follow to software vendor suggestions for hardware, I'm not giving out an edgy bold roll-of-the-dice strategy or owt like that.
@@Neil3D Fair point. I guess I'm coming from a perspective where my work is 100% cloud based and the computer is strictly a processing unit. I have had the Dell fail (graphics crashes and processing freezes) and I'm able to jump on my personal built desktop and finish something. I don't have a lot of experience where a device failure would cause me to miss a deadline. As mentioned I think your point is valid and my frustrations really are directed to the IT departments who are so fixated on "approved specs" that performance is left on the table which in itself can cause delays. That said I should take this opportunity to thank you so much for your inventor walkthroughs and lessons. I truly have learned so much from those and have been able to expand my skill portfolio
PC using Quadro A2000 is not a gaming laptop; it is a proper workstation laptop/PC, which he recommends using anyway!
Yeah but NX or CATIA are just, you know, not gonna work on GeForce drivers. It really does depend what you are doing.
Difference between the Dell laptop owners and gaming laptop owners is the ability to go under the hood and tinker with the engine. I would choose the gaming laptop or even the gaming rig and tinker away all I want. Also I would not go to "MSI" for the drivers...I can find it myself on the net for the different components. And I do run Inventor, Autocad and Solidworks on my rigs without an issue!!
Right - the tradeoff is speed & noise vs. reliability, updates, & build quality
And if you know where to shop, you can get big discounts on the workstations (i have seen Zbooks discounted from $8,200 to $4,200 or $3,000 to $1,500 at B&H Photo Video, and almost the same discount from HP's site when there are sales)
And good workstations have support for 5+ years. My $1,500 Zbook Studio G3 from 2016 only stopped getting support in 2022. And it came with 3 year onsite service - a friend with the Zbook 17 G3 (also around $1,500) actually called HP and they came to his house and replaced the motherboard for free.
And my Zbook still looks new after 6 years.
If you don't need the speed 100%, you can get a low priced workstation and use it for twice as long.
aaronbredon- i prefer workstations over gaming laptops, doesn't matter what i use it for, however, new ones are too pricey for what you get, even the used refurbished dell precisions are expensive, i do like the asus zens and vivos but they don't have enough ports and i don't like the locations all on the sides. my 2011-12 precision 7 m4600 is made of all metal, thick and a brick, loaded with all kinds of ports and the bigger cable ports are on the back which is important to me, anyway, i prefer to stick with precisions but not paying for them, i can get a gaming laptop with right ports and locations with same to more higher performance parts for much cheaper about the same price for certain used precisions, i just don't like all the xmas tree lights, alien heads, and racer x emblems all over my laptop. catch 22/stuck. where are you finding these deals? is bh the only place you know of? if you don't mind me asking? the only laptops i can find with correct specs, ports/location are down to lenovo and acer, lenovo is cleaner, acer has some gamer aspects but both are great. xmg is the only one that fits the bill but kinda pricey, not as much as precisions, btw- i hate the new precision 5 series, either 3 or 7 for me, but i will not pay new for that. thanks.
B&H sells camera and video equipment for everyone from amateurs to professionals. Their main store is half a NYC midtown city block, so they are kind of a department store for photography and related stuff. They buy in quantity, so they get good deals, and they pass those deals on to buyers. Be aware, they close for Jewish holidays.
The other site is HP itself - you have to know or figure out how to get to the workstation part of the site - searching for ZBook or workstation often works. They have pretty big sales every so often - I have seen sales that wound up being 50% or more off on higher end configurations. Last year, their Black Friday sale was over 50% off, but the laptop I was looking at was still around $4,000 between the CPU, the color balanced display, the video card, and the RAM.
The HP ZBook models tend to have the ports on the side, and they have almost as many Thunderbolt ports as Apple.
A Thunderbolt dock is one of the best ways to connect them. Their early Thunderbolt docks were a bit flaky if you had 2 DisplayPort monitors hooked up at once.
It is true that currently Workstation laptops are more expensive than gaming laptops, but how many gaming laptops allow you to replace the video card or take 4 SSD storage devices?
I will have to replace my 2018 ZBook Studio g3 soon - the service period is ending, and it doesn’t support Windows 11. But 3 years of full in house warranty, and 3 additional years of parts availability, plus still looking almost new for $1,500 was well worth it. I had bought a $700 consumer laptop around the same time for gaming, and the HP simply ran rings around it.
Currently I am looking at the ZBook Fury 16 (G10 or G11), as the smaller models both don’t have the same capabilities I need, and aren’t enough cheaper to be worth considering.
Note that you can order a ZBook customized exactly how you want, and the sale still applies. You can skimp on RAM and SSD if you wish, as those are easy to upgrade later.
FIRST: Lots of respect for being honest and acting with integrity regarding this industry conundrum, thanks for putting truth ahead of marketing and being a sponsored youtube puppet.
Great follow up video, these are some of the reasons why I still love my Precision M4700 which despite the age still remains useable and relevant. Backing your product is great, but that should be in addition to providing optimum designs. Dell have dropped the ball around power and thermal throttling as have their peers (based on what I've read online), specifically with the 12th and 13th gen chips. I have been struggling to find a suitable upgrade and have since decided to jump on a gaming rig from Lenovo, it seems their Legion 7i Pro Gen 8 manages to adequately cool current gen chips and packaged it into what looks like an almost workstation grade chassis.
I have a 2018 Precision workstation packed with Quadro, it is great and always reliable, but I did notice a drop in build quality from my Optiplex 9010. The 9010 was a brilliant workhorse, built like a tank and had higher quality parts (USB, DVD, higher efficiency PSU etc...). It is a shame the Dell cost cutting has now moved into R&D as they were leaders in performance and reliability "back in the day".
One additional factor might be whether the laptop stays on the desk all the time or whether the user travels a lot. Gaming laptops don't tend to be designed for frequent travel, being hauled through airports, etc.
As for the part about losing 2 weeks of work due to a laptop failing, not sure how it's in other fields, but in IT related fields projects usually use a central source code repository to prevent such situations.
I have had a Dell precision Mobile 7520 for 5 years. Within a month of me having the laptop it was completely opened to replace the outer cover behind the screen. Then after a couple of months the outer cover protecting the battery side was also replaced. Pathetic build quality of the dell Precision 7520 and horrible experience with customer care executives at dell.
The main thing with the pro GPUS are that they get quality controlled to a higher standard and are normally the best that the silicone die produces. Due to this they are less prone to errors and failure to the supplier can charge more for the product. @adoredtv has a lot of videos explained the how the dies are manufacture and the yield of the die etc.
I bought my son an 10nm 8core/16thread xeon Dell 7560 RTX3000 on clearance directly from dell, due to one generation back at the time, with extended 5yr Pro Warranty for $1400 US dollars. Ripped out the 8gb ram and through in 128gb and Ripped out 256ssd and threw in 2x2tb Linux/Windows dual boot and I am 2k into laptop, that I do not need to support for the tenure of his PHD program. Dell (Vendor) support came to his University next business day to replace a noisy fan :)
I use an Alienware M18 R1 as a professional machine. Previously I had a Precision 7670 with 3080Ti but it can only really sustain 30W CPU + 80W GPU before thermal throttling. With the M18 the aesthetics are good enough with all RGB disabled. I do not use AWCC as it is too unpredictable and instead have an open source control tool that reverse engineered the control protocols. I also had to repaste it myself to fix out of the box quality control issues. Windows 10 22H2 unofficially works. Technically you can use the new 48GB SODIMMs in it to get a maximum of 96GB memory. Having back-side power and TB4 ports for a tidy dock setup is actually an upgrade over the latest Precision design too for me. I feel like its a bit superior to the GT77 and other gaming laptops as it does have onsite warranty (up to four years) and periodic driver and bios updates.
^THIS - I'm looking into doing the same. I'd love to see a head to head with the MSI version with TCO and support thoughts (I'd still trust Dell a bit more on this). The m18 comes with a proper 330W power supply - why Dell doesn't use for this for the Precision is beyond me.
The GPU most intensive items I plan to use it for as a maker are Solidworks (easy - that works fine for me at QHD on an ancient unsupported driver on an M4800), and DaVinci Resolve (which doesn't). Should be fine at about 1/2 the cost or less.
I need a business machine with good performance, but I refuse to buy a laptop covered in RGB nonsense and silly branding.
Get a victus 15 trust me
@@soupcuber4049 bad choice fr, neither is that professional laptop, nor a good gaming laptop, buy the lenovo legion 7i. Thats professional and has a 4060, and its price is reasonable
@@soupcuber4049 Do u have one? If you do how is it? Heavy? Enough battery? decent or acceptable build?
I have been using an AMD system for a few years now that I built. Currently a 7700x and a 7900XTX..
Have had absolutely zero issues with anything ive done with any of the Autodesk products. I think the pro stuff is severely over marketed.
My Dell Precision 5570 still sounds like an airplane taking off whenever I compile my code or run a CAD simulation.
Just based on 18:49 when you said that, I can see you genuinely care about the end users. It's rare in this day and age.
@20.11..One man bands :)(Contractors)...when starting out; a gaming machine will get you started; but it will not secure the "Big Contract"; I set 2 dell Desktop towers on fire before I learned the hard way.
exacly my question so hard to find rell comparation of thinkpad p16 maxout, razen blade 16 and lenovo i7 or i9
15:36 If you buy 100 laptops and they are $5k cheaper per unit, you're saving the company Half A Million Dollars. If you throw them away and you buy a new one every 2 years instead of every 4 years, (for the $5k vs $11k case) you've saved the company $100k..! And you are using better and newer hardware for the second 2 year period. Also, screen going off, boot drive not detected, no updates to the firmware after 2 years..? Really..? Not normal, man.
Workstation laptops exist purely for the use case of the guy choosing them NOT being the guy paying for them. The laptop manufacturer makes twice the profit and whoever chose that machine can say "...Wasn't Me..." That is the ONLY advantage...
P.S. Any Nvidia gaming card can run the Studio drivers now. Certified drivers. All of them... So, you can now stop saying that.
Nvidia might claim to test their studio drivers on "Autodesk" - Autodesk what? But you don't go to Nvidia when your program bugs out, you go to Autodesk or Dassult etc And they don't list GeForce hardware as being approved, therefore the studio drivers are not on the support list.
www.autodesk.co.uk/support/system-requirements/certified-graphics-hardware/inventor
No GeForce or mention of studio drivers. So I can and will continue to say this until Autodesk explicitly list GeForce hardware on their certified hardware page.
I have seen many niggling issues with uncertified/Hardware and drivers while working on Inventor. It wastes a lot of time, but most importantly, it breaks my chain of thinking process.
Saving 6K over five years is less than a dollar per day, and can a person save more than a dollar per hour by using an expensive workstation? If a person paid $50 per hour then he needs to save one minute per hour to recover that investment. My experience is, it is worth it!
But do you save on banking on potentially less down time or do you save by actually processing the work faster? No mention of the financial gains of faster work and larger throughput.
Now as far as Inventor goes, I only run the student license back in 2016. But I did use it quite a bit, on a Radeon HD7970 I had bought used for $60 and it had no stability issues whatsoever... And the second fan never turned on like it did when gaming.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong here Neal, but SOLIDWORKS allows you to use the viewport rendering option and a few other bells and whistles with Studio drivers. Most video editing software also have features that can be supported on the Studio drivers and not on the gaming ones on GTX and RTX hardware.
If I am not mistaken in that, maybe you should change the title of your video to gaming v workstation FOR INVENTOR.
@@ExMachinaEngineering is easier to say if I use it for a month. I use it at least 10 hours a day, Six days a week. And Gaming cards didn't work for me. Do gaming PCs come with a 3 to 5 yrs warranty? HPWorkstation comes with 3 yr free warranty, and with Lenovo, you can buy up to 5 yrs.
@@paragkorgaonkar2228 your math is off,
Keep the in-depth explanations. Sometimes it's no explanation at all if want the express version. If you don't need portability, pound for pound you'll get better performance from a desktop. You always pay a premium for compactness.
If only we held the software technology vendors to the same candle as hardware vendors. Software issues seem to be a far greater risk to project deliver.
With power and heat produced with 12th and 13th gen CPUs, desktop are again back to be the workhorses for me.
I am still surprised remote desktops in dedicated IT hardware rooms have not become the norm.
If asked to build an IT solution for an AEC consultant, that would be my recommendation.
We got HP laptops on our business, the more professional CAD laptops seem to have the most issues. When we just got them we had a lot of issues with sound and bluetooth drivers and in the end about half of them had to be fully reinstalled. They are also quite noisy. On their desktop workstation we also have had 2 quadros fail and fans making bad noises. After replacing the GPU the system took forever to actually torn on ect. Ect. Personally i would avoid HP, i think Lenovo / sometimes Dell is in general a good go to brand.
Which ones did you have? The HP Power Zbook?
@@Dr.Rwiena Myself i have an older desktop workstation, my colleagues have the HP ZBook 15 G6 with i7 9750h, 32GB and Quadro T2000.
I have a DELL PRECISION M4800 and DELL PRECISION 7710... Honestly to say i receive driver updates until now. My DELL machines have never failed. Lastly i like the build quality of dell.
I am one of those people where the buck stops at me, I am holding a 10 grand + quotation from Dell with a core i9 ,rtx 5000 ada , 128 GB ram but am completely lost now. I thought the whole point of these workstations was performance and reliability but reading all of the stuff about low performance, limited voltage and thermal throttling is just frustratingly confusing and dissapointing. Wtf should I do ? cant buy a desktop box, I travell 5 counties to develop buissiness and meetings all the while creating product designs and now cant buy these workstation because they certainly look like waste of precious money and no body has a clue about running software like nx and ansys on a 4090 laptop.
Please help ... ill lose my mind.
Would be nice to have a video with your opinion on those new Ryzen 3D processors, even more now that there is one for laptops as well. Does it affect Autodesk Inventor performance?
Can anyone link me to video on why, Tech3D suggests staying away from AMD for professional work?
great video bro
I value your opinion - you can spew away; no editing required!! 😃
i am not a professional engineer but what i can summarize that if you work alone then you will be pretty much fine with gaming laptop and a noise cancelling headphones. But for professional enterprise that is not a option at all.
Thanks, Neil, Great work mate.
I have a question; I plan to buy a new laptop. As per your earlier Videos, I am trying to get the fastest CPU, but the base frequency is low. What would work better, I9-12950 HX with RTX A5500 or I9-13950 HX with RTX5000 Ada? I can't see any Drivers for RTX5000 Ada; not sure it will use the same drivers as RTX5000.
It is a personalised request, so I much appreciate your reply.
I love you 17:23 well flipping said!
I need your help to choose from, dell precision 7750 i7 with quadro rtx 3000 and msi ws 65 i9 with quadro rtx 3000.
Any advice on getting a Asus g14 over the dell precision
tbh, my legion 5 pro on normaal mode (not performance) is quieter and faster than my hp zbook g7. and it doesent thermal shutdown since its able to cool itself. where as when the zbook isent on a level surface but somthing that in the slightest blocks the inlet and it does thermal shutdown.
edit,
I have had contact with hp about my school laptop, witch was bought with the extenden warranty and "proffesional" support. to honnest your discripion about the gigabite laptop sums the support up nicely, it was out for week due to a corrupted windows update.
Hello. I can see that you are bringing the gaming laptops in a good light, and as a dell user I want to upgrade to a precision equipped with a quadro(probably 12th gen or older, definitely second hand). I am using my laptop ONLY for Inventor, Fusion, Autocad, Matlab also robotics simulation software that require better gpu (I am curerently running on a latitude integrated gpu) and i have seen how fusion, for example, runs on a geforce rtx 3070 with intel's i7 12500 and I was not impressed due to heating. Also, there is another thing about such laptops that I don't like: the lid is wobbly, they are made of plastic, and really noisy. I am currently using i5 8365u on a highly portable latitude which I like, mostly because of the last aspect. I am willing to pay form 700 euros to 1000 euros on second hand precisions. What do you think and what do you suggest. I am planning to use it for the next 3 to 4 years. Thanks in advance! Great videos!
Hi, Really like your to the point and insightful videos, may it tech or Austodesk. Must say the watch 4 no gap band looks really good.
That dark brown with white stiching . Would you mind recommending where you bought that from?
Cheer!
....what's your thoughts on VMs? eg. buying a whatever laptop and then you always remote into a VM with all your CAD tools?
I don't think you have the correct understanding of a VM. there is a difference between remoting into a computer and running a virtual machine on your own computer. a VM is like a separate OS running inside your computer.
Is intel A770 graphics card any good for moderate level CAD & rendering tasks?
I can accept a few crashes, but I don't want to fall into swamp of constant experimentation. Its been more than a year since Intel launched ARC, hope the drivers are tuned good enough for CAD.
HAHA i used nvidia and Amd, i currently am using wx3200 for autocad and loving it, i had some strange issues with the nvidia cards driver crashing and zooming issues then i figured why not, lets try havent looked back yet... i just bought a 6700xt for autocad as well, working great, but tonight i decided to put in the wx3200 again just to see if some refreshing issues in autocad happen with the pro card and its less issues with a pro card then a gaming card but like you said the gaming has the power, but the Pro cards have the stability.. and when you are working you want the stability and the line to show up. XD
Owning a Dell Precision and as a small business owner, I tend to agree - with Dell you get onsite next day support (the other guys don't do that) - however my dog crap 11th gen still screams.
They do, but trust me, it's still like a delicate fanny fart compared to the obnoxious tornado that comes out of these gaming units. I could hear it from 3 rooms away in my house through a double skinned solid brick wall. Dell have strict corporate guidelines on how loud they allow their systems to get, and how hot on the exterior, the rest don't give a toot. I measured over 60C touch temp on the Titan last year which is more than enough to cause actual skin burn
@24.30 Thanks for the input.. As a one man band; all info is good info.Got another expensive ass machine ; but saved a few pounds going with AMD.DOnt want to bash them; but wtf?
To be honest, my Dell laptop has grown so excruciatingly slow after a year of usage , I am thinking of getting a gaming laptop.
Dell Alienware should be the point of comparison - Support is great under EBA and noise can be managed over balanced mode in alienware’s command center 🔇
Every gaming laptop has a balanced mode, but what's the logic in buying a flagship top tier system then intentionally slowing it down just to try and keep it quiet.
What makes you think MSI is a good example for generalization of gaming laptop? It seems like today’s landscape in this category varies enormously in terms of thermal solution, built quality, noise production and attenuation.
Heeeey Crossy, you might remember me from your tna days. We've just gone to the Lenovo P16 Gen 1 laptops for the engineering team. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on them. We've had a lot of teething issues, a lot of it being software related. The graphics card is an absolute beast, should destroy most CAD tasks, but is it designed for CAD or just high end gaming? Due to the issues, the team have been having, it's suitability is a hot topic. Because its Lenovo we've had good support, but up to the point that there's nothing physically wrong with the laptops. Also, we've finally upgraded from 2018 to 2023 Autodesk suite so quite the jump. I head up the distribution team now so any tips, pointers, training (budget pending) would be appreciated. Alex
It basically brand name selling, apple does it with iPhone, thats the best example.
Hipsters are known to always want to show others how much £ they can spend. All there is too it.
We run Lenovo P15, they are all plastic and fans go full speed all time. Absolutely horrible for the users with the noice... The new Lenovo P14s even worse..
big companies dont like to see "gaming" or similar on anything they buy. not even headphones even if they cost the 3 times less but do the same. lol
Asus never did me wrong. Small team here tho. But Asus 👌👌
Yah this isn't a dig at MSI, I just had one on hand and used that as a symbolic article to represent "gaming units". But yea, like I said, many people will run gaming units for years and never have a problem in fact the majority will never have an issuie. But that one time...
I worked in 2 midium company (6-10 workstation) like Mechanical designer with Inventor and each one had HP Z4 (W2225, RTX A4000, 64GB RAM, ecc...).
In the first company, every morning, when i started my PC i putted my password on it and it crashed for no reason (IT manager had confirmed that no reason).
Now, where i am, when i design more faster than the software can elaborate, it crash (IT manager update all driver, software, ecc...).
First of all, I can’t explain myself why a workstation like Z4 suggested by Autodesk, have a lot of problem to support Inventor. Second of all, I don’t find myself in what you said about the stability of workstations. I never find a workstation that was stable to run Autodesk Inventor (unless you click/movment at minute).
Thanks for your video!
Yeah, companies like HP just produce workstations for no reason clearly
This opinion piece is a bit of a stretch
"Promo SM"
I pay for the R&D, reputation and experience for both pro and gaming laptop, but why I need to pay more on pro laptop?