Frieza had a mental hold over Vegeta since before he was even born, and would've used that to manipulate his anger, outsmart him, or go full power immediately to kill Vegeta before he could get used to his own strength
I think its narrative vs mathematical power scaling. Frieza feared the super saiyan, and that is what would of defeated Frieza. That seemed to be Toriyama's writing intent
Then again, Toriyama probably did not like Vegeta. If Vegeta and Goku switched training methods in the Time Chamber, the story would probably punish Vegeta and reward Goku. But during the Frieza saga, the entire narrative buildup was for Frieza to be defeated by the Super Saiyan
@@VanessaWong-yi5pe valid points you make. I'm looking at it through a narrative point as well in that Vegeta is too emotionally driven at that time during Namek and Frieza knew everything to say to make Vegeta angry and unfocused since he basically raised Vegeta.
Absolutely. We saw Vegeta goading Freeza to his 2nd form when he thought he had the advantage. Imagine a Vegeta hyped on Super Sayian power and rage? Vegeta would want to crush Freeza at his best, humilate him and leave no doubt that he was the strongest in the Universe.
@@SuperKamiGuruubro, he would’ve died and wouldn’t have been able to come back if the ginyu force’s ships weren’t there. Remember, this is BECAUSE he wanted to fight frieza at his best. Not very rational, isn’t that?
Who fans think Vegeta is: "An inspirational underdog whose pride gets the best of him, but always strives to come back and win no matter the cost, and will avenge the honor of his fallen people and reclaim his birthright" Who Bejita actually was: "Imagine if Freeza was a monkey"
True. Vegeta contradicts himself sometimes. He tells Goku to not be too soft and careless though he would have savored (if he had the power, which he wouldn’t have even after going ssj from a power level around Third Form Frieza) the best down against Frieza, leaving the latter enough time to turn the tables by exploding Namek.
honestly, I think vegeta would destroy the planet himself once he realizes he can't win agient a 100% frieza. I mean, he tried it against goku in the saiyan saga.
If Vegeta could hold his own against Third form and then went super saiyan, there's a possibility. But given that his base power is more vague, I think Frieza would have had more of a chance in the encounter.
IIRC guides put Frieza on Namek at 120MM, and Vegeta after being healed by Dende at 250k, which would be 125MM after Super Saiyan boost (initially 50x). Still weaker than Goku, but also still stronger than Frieza. Though maybe that gap in power is small enough and Vegeta's anger would be overwhelming enough to cover the gap?
@@The2bGaming 5M is a small enough gap in power, that someone who is a superior fighter like frieza can close. If and thats a big if vegeta would have won it would have been after a hard fought fight like barely. Also to keep in mind the saiyen saga and start of the cell saga vegeta is much more ruthless and would go straight for the kill if possible. So whilst a vegeta W is possible due to having 125M power level Vs friezas 120, its not as straight forward as it seems.
@@Musttaquilla i can't think of a single fight where the weaker fighter ends up winning. So far in dragon ball higher power level equals the win at the end of the day.
I'll agree with your final argument, absolutely. People often say that "Vegeta was smart and cunning in the Namek arc." _Because he knew how outclassed he was!_ His whole sneaky treachery was only a thing because he knew for a fact how strong Freeza was just in his first form, and knew better than to rush headlong into a fight with him and his most elite henchmen. Once he actually achieves Super Saiyan, he has no reason to be cunning anymore. In fact, his plan from the getgo was the wish for immortality, then deliberately throw himself into the fire just to abuse the zenkai boosts and then use his newfound superiority to deliver unto Freeza everything Freeza did to him. In his mad mind, the _densetsu no Sūpā Saiyajin_ might as well have been the same thing as immortality. Furthermore, the potential pride gain he'd get of fighting and defeating Freeza at 100% would warp his little monkey brain far more than if he just kills Freeza as is. His honor and hubris would never have allowed him to miss an opportunity to humiliate Freeza to the maximal possible extent. Basically, Bejita was destined to job
Also I don't want to necessarily bring IRL intentions and factors into the manga's story, but let's be fair here: if Vegeta actually _did_ achieve Super Saiyan first... Toriyama would have absolutely let him get clobbered to death and then have Goku achieve the form to show how to do it "right." I'm glad he didn't go that route because Vegeta didn't deserve Super Saiyan in any form at that point and it would've cheapened the transformation early _and_ the irony of how the legendary Super Saiyan was achieved by the one Saiyan who did not care about Saiyan pride and was doing it out of compassionate revenge and couldn't give less of a shit about what a "supa saiya-jin" is supposed to be. All the talk about battle powers is fun in a nerdy, geeky way, but realistically Toriyama could have written somewhere "Super Saiyan Vegeta has a power level of 1 billion, Freeza is 100 million" and he still would have had Vegeta lose because _laughs_ and _Goku wins_
We don't even need to talk in hypotheticals. When Vegeta first turned SSJ in the Android Saga, his ego was so out of control that he was attacking and antagonizing his allies, and got himself beaten within an inch of his life because he couldn't accept 18 was stronger than him. Against Frieza, who he has even more of a desire to flex against, there's no way he's going to be thinking rationally and strategically enough to win that in a way that wasn't brute force.
Even if Vegeta does find a way to win, he will get cocky, overstay/torture Frieza and end up getting blown up with the planet or something, I think the ROF movie is a perfect example of why Vegeta always loses.
Except by the point of ROF Vegeta should have been wise and smart enough to not fall for that but did anyways because Super dosent know how to make characters not be their past selves considering he is like cell saga Vegeta with his hate boner for goku Vegeta is already aware of what Frieza does when backed into a corner Toriyama should have never stolen that win from Vegeta that was a shit writing decision and was bland Giving Goku the win was bland boring and unemotional and a Terrible writing choice Not to mention the fact that Frieza did it without ever charging an attack which is what anybody except for beerus does when planning to destroy a planet which is ridiculous because it was rigged for Goku to take it from the start considering how Goku yelling made Frieza stop and comedically watch Goku charge a blast up and shoot him without ever actually going for the attack No that was written to rob Vegeta of something great because toriyama dosent like him and wants Goku to have all the glory And that is 100% the reason
@@gabrielchastain6091ngl there’s a way to combat this even tho it’s a bit head cannon. Vegeta in RoF was fighting freeza for a second time so he was doing what he been wanted to do
Interesting to learn the differences between the anime and manga's versions of the Goku v Frieza fight. The anime had me thinking 100% Frieza was initially stronger than SSJ Goku, but when Goku got up again, another zenkai boost made him stronger than full power Frieza.
This is what me and my folks believed for the longest time. After Frieza initially transformed, he was BODYING Goku for a while. It evened out over the course of the fight, but (at least in the anime) nothing suggested Goku was stronger the whole time. Can't fault people for being confused, lol
No. You definitely can discret the anime The manga is the actual work of Toriyama himself while the anime is purposely enlogated and has tons of fillers that often directly contradict the Internal logic of the series
Kinda strange how folks will have you believing Gokunwas destroying Frieza. The definition of "destroying" an opponent is what he did to Nappa or the Ginyus. Meanwhile both anime and manga have Goku and Frieza throwing hands for five damn minutes, bith bloodied and tired by the end of it. It all came down to mentality and stamina issues. Goku had righteous fury locked in like a predator calm and way better control over his immense ki, meanwhile Frieza just poured his power out wildly and was filled with fear, dread, desparation and arrogance.
I think Goku struggled against Frieza so much as ssj is he was still heavily damaged and fatigued. He was already at his limit leaning on piccolo for support because he couldn't walk. He was barely hanging on through adrenaline and the desire to finish his mission.
This is a very loaded what-if. - The most meta answer is that Toriyama would never have allowed Vegeta to win. - Ignoring that, the whole 50x multiplier was only canonized later, and it wasn't even Toriyama who canonized it. The narrative of the time was that super saiyan would win regardless who achieved it. - If we do go with the 50x multiplier and put Vegeta at the same power level as 100% Frieza or even a little lower it is reasonable to think that Vegeta could outlast Frieza. Not only because of Frieza's low stamina, but also because Vegeta can be extremely durable when he wants to be. Remember that Vegeta would NEVER have given up if he actually achieved SSJ. So I think that by all measures Vegeta should be able to do it, but it obviously wouldn't happen because Vegeta just isn't allowed to beat a main villain.
"the whole 50x multiplier was only canonized later" With the Kaioken multipliers, and Frieza's Final Form being confirmed to be "only 50%" of his power once he goes "Full Power," the 50x multiplier for SSJ is _the lowest_ you can bring it with how one-sided the fight was. Kaioken x20 Goku was around equal to 50% Frieza, and SSJ Goku was clearly a lot stronger than Full Power Frieza. If SSJ was 40x or lower, then the fight wouldn't have been so one-sided in Goku's favor. 45x is a bit weird of a number, and isn't even that far off from 50x. 50x is a nice multiple of 10 that also lets SSJ be enough of a boost beyond Kaioken x20 to make sense within the story. So the power boost from SSJ (unless you argue that Goku being exhausted or otherwise spending a lot of his energy in the fight prior lowered his power substantially, in which case the power boost would have to be even higher) was always 50x _or more._ The guidebooks just put that together and made exactly 50x the go-to number. TL;DR, semantics that probably doesn't change the argument too much, but I felt was at least important enough to note.
Toriyama did say he intended ssj to be a multiplier in daizenhsuu so since his base is low than goku no matter his pride will be obliterated once again
@@christiancinnabars1402 Oh yeah he definitely got 50x stronger. I was just saying that SSJ could originally have been an automatic 150,000,000 regardless of base power level.
@@ohhellwhereami2574 Power level is important, but there's more to it than that. If Vegeta is at the same power level as 100% Frieza then he should have it in the bag due to Frieza's low stamina and because of his ability to take damage. Even if we low-ball him and put him a little lower than 100% Frieza it should be the same. Especially with the ego boost he would have gotten from SSJ. Remember that he already fought first form Frieza with a small power disadvantage and he was still able to hold him off.
@@Ryan-uq7kj that's because freiza was humiliating him lmao, plus goku had better technique than vegeta that's why stamina mattered, if anything ego is gonna crush vegeta himself he isn't not a man who fights for others that's why his ego boost would be barely noticeable freiza can survive very fatal injuries freiza definitely got it plus vegeta was exhausted as hell unlike goku he wouldn't have someone stalling for him
Ive also heard the conjecture that frieza was weakened by the spirit bomb, and that that limited him to 120 mil. So, without the spirit bomb, frieza would be over 120 mil.
@@smaragdchaos He literally announces that he almost died. King Kai himself thought he was finished. And NONE of the Z Fighters could sense him before he re-emerged. He was absolutely damaged HARD by that attack.
120,000,000 never made sense anyway because kaiokenx20 goku was already 60,000,000 but since the Kamehameha also doubles the users power (raditz) arc technically goku would of already been at 120,000,000 with that techhnique alone and frieza blocked it with one hand which would mean he was already past 120,000,000 at half power anyway. Which would put ssj goku and 100% frieza closer to 300,000,000 also the gaps in friezas dont make sense with the diazenshuu power levels either frieza and goku honestly at least in story are probably more like 5,000,000 or 6,000,000
@@coryhafer7285 yeah he wouldn't let freiza go full power after having a massive advantage...like when he fought semi-perfect cell and let him absorb android 18...totally out of character...
It depends on what would have caused him to transform. If he was angry enough to transform, he might have been angry enough to seriously injure Frieza before he could power up to full. "Stupid monkey. I liked you, Vegeta. I was so kind all these years. I let you and that worthless brother of yours live and this is how you repay me. What was his name? Tarble? Ah, yes. I've had Ginyu keeping watch on him. I think I'll pay him a visit once I'm done with you. Do you have a message for your dear brother? No? Then let's get to it! No more monkey business! Ha ha ha ha."
...True, but at this point, it's not like his first instinct is to incapacitate instead of kill. _He'd_ probably try to cut frieza in half _himself._ He might be weaker than Goku, but it'll still kill a MFer when he goes for the throat punch. ...and despite that, he'd definitely get himself killed going in recklessly.
Vegeta was sitting around 2 mill. He wasn't that much weaker than Goku. With 100% Frieza, all he'd have to do is outlast him and in every fight he's had up to that point, Vegeta was shown to be able to take punishment so being able to withstand Frieza till he tires out should be easy work for him. Once Frieza loses stamina and power, the fight is Vegeta's.
@@TheBamaPrinceable Meh thats still a million difference in power. goku still has a million more than vegeta. He is gonna be way more hurt then goku was.
@@TheBamaPrinceable the real question is, would frieza even get the CHANCE to float going 100% to Vegeta? I mean, we know for a FACT he'd let him, but I doubt he'd relent enough while frieza is relatively powered down. THAT is kind of a toss-up.
Vegeta's ego/stupidity in this situation is exactly what was on my mind, In a theoretical battle, the Ki spammer would quickly wear out and Frezzer knowed how to provoke him.
Though imagine the sheer mental damage Vegeta would have suffered if he actually did it and achieved the legendary form ..... and _STILL_ lost to Freeza It'd probably break his brain worse than every loss he took in the actual series times eleven.
Fully confident Vegeta knows how to play mind games too (Look at his fight with Semi-perfect Cell). Even if they matched power levels, Frieza was scared of the legend of Super Saiyan. Vegeta coulde provoke Frieza into getting sloppy a lot easier than the reverse.
@@carrot708Fully confident Vegeta is fking worthless. Fully confident Vegeta failed to kill Goku, failed to kill Frieza twice, failed to kill Android 18 and Semi-perfect Cell. Vegeta is the eternal jobber
When Vegeta was beaten and humiliated to the point that he was crying for Goku to avenge the saiyan race etc, and somehow unlocked SSJ from all that pain and rage, he could have finished him
I dunno, I think it’d be kinda close. Goku could barely stand when he went SSJ, so I imagine he wasn’t even at 3 mil battle power. I think vegeta would be more likely to lose but he still has a good chance to win
@@danielsilva9502if I had to guess I’d say SSJ gives you an adrenaline spike and a boost in yuki or courage, which can strengthen your overall ki output, but if your body is damaged you still can’t perform as well as you are fresh, even with adrenaline
Yes, but Frieza also just took a spirit bomb to the face. So the Frieza fighting this hypothetical Vegeta would be somewhat stronger than the one that fought SSJ Goku.
Things to consider: Full power Freeza was beating the brakes off SSJ Goku for the first third or so of their fight. To the point that I think he was actually stronger, just burning himself out. They were both tired and injured, but Freeza getting hit by the spirit bomb isn't something to dismiss. I think he was way more roughed up than Goku despite the beating Freeza laid on him before this and Goku's abuse of Kaioken to try to get the upper hand. Freeza also never trained a day in his life. He isn't used to be pushed to his limit like Goku is. Like I said, I think Freeza burned himself out. What I am saying is I think there's a chance GOKU couldn't have beaten him had Freeza not been hit by the spirit bomb first. It is absolutely canon that injuries and fatigue are a thing, Tambourine demonstrated that nicely against Goku, Vegeta was finished off by Gohan who'd never have pulled that off if Goku hadn't beaten the wheels off of him first, and 17 and 18's ace in the hole being that they never get tired and can wear down an opponent near them in strength. So it really depends on the circumstances Vegeta goes super saiyan under. If he did it when Freeza deflected his planet buster attack instead of breaking down and crying... he loses. He'd let Freeza go to 100% just like Goku, and while he'd put up a fight I think he just gets mauled at that point. Gohan on the other hand might fair better despite being weaker than Vegeta. Unless he goes into 'pulling the wings off a fly' mode like he did against Cell he'd just go berserk and blow Freeza up before he can get to full power.
So... Goku almost drowned after the Spirit Bomb, he was more, and when I say more I meant to say WAY MORE, tired than Freezer. Like, Goku leaves that fight and get to Yardrat almost dead, he was more injuried than Freeza. And, if you think about it, Freeza is more resistent than Goku, MUCH more. He was defeated like, three separade times, was weaker when Goku let him in Namek, take a blast of energy in his face, a planet explodes in his face and he was still alive... I do believe his power level doens't reflect his endurance...
@@PauloHenrique-op9zw yeah but Freeza was missing part of his tail and was squinting in one eye Checkmate atheists I will agree going in Goku was probably more tired
@@sneedchuck5477 marginally better than 'my dude' but that's not how I remember their initial exchange after he reached full power. It was just all downhill from there.
I guess the most interesting 1 here is this idea you said if vegetas power is 2,4000,000 and the 50x multiplier puts him at 120,000,000 this brings back into play the idea of him outlasting Frieza. It is unlikely that Frieza would be able to unleash a killing blow on a fighter exactly as strong as him. It would more likely be a slug fest like the one fought by Piccolo and Android 17 after Piccolo fused with Kami where it appears both fighters are exactly the same strength (One interesting point is that Piccolo does not use his strongest attack "the Light Grenade" on 17 but rather on Cell who has grown stronger than Piccolo at this time but it would have been interesting to see if that ability would have been too much for 17 and even his shield). But in the case of a Full Power Frieza vs Super Saiyan Vegeta Slug Fest it would be Frieza who would wear out quicker and once this happened Vegeta would show no mercy. Of course its arguable Frieza would try the same trick he did on earth in Super and blow up the planet instantly and whether a weaker Frieza than the one in Super would survive this explosion but he certainly could kill Vegeta this way in a last desperate way.
Now I'm just wondering, can we say Namek Frieza was a *skilled fighter* at all? Because, yeah there's all that talk of him being a mutant and a prodigy, but the fact he never trained for combat before is hammered down quite a lot in the story, and he literally cut himself in half with his own attack (like Piccolo Jr got hit by his own attack in his first fight with Goku, he was more technical than catless Mewtwo but also kinda like 5 years old)... Frieza's only TRULY refined skill was suppressing his own power, because even while doing so, he had more than enough power to comfortably curbstomp any and all opposition... until he didn't. Vegeta, on the other hand, was also a prodigy of sorts even if not a mutant, but the greatest difference is that Vegeta showed to be capable of strategizing and being resourceful overall, much moreso than the likes of Frieza ever did, though our prince here still brute-forced things whenever possible... point is, he was a skilled fighter beyond just being a powerhouse. If we're gonna make the argument that Vegeta would be dumbed down by his Super Saiyan form and his super ego, we also HAVE to make the argument for Frieza being scared to hell and back. Neither of them would be fighting with a straight mind, but honestly I'd make an argument for Frieza being dragged down the most, with the mere idea of Vegeta being the one to end him, he should be more angry than he could ever be against (non TFS) Goku, and Vegeta would RELISH in this, rub salt into the wound, add insult to injury, and make fun of Frieza nonstop even if he's not undeniably superior. Humiliating an enemy is just another way to stroke his own ego, so I'm pretty confident to say it's fair game. In conclusion: (A) - If they're both close to the same Power Level, SSJ Vegeta only loses by HEAVILY sabotaging himself, having the higher skill and stamina, he can do whatever until Frieza drains himself dry. (B) - If Vegeta is considerably but not alarmingly weaker, he could lose by constantly trying to overpower Frieza, which is... likely enough, but Vegeta could win by managing to pick a different strategy before dying.
He's a Talent Fighter he (like Broly and other prodigy's) have pretty good battle iq if untrained you could definitely say that frieza is skilled Fighter if nowhere near Goku and Gang.
Yes, he was able to hold his own against goku, who was literally outskilling and copying martial arts masters. Goku is literally the most skilled combatant.
I think Resurrection F had an answer to the fans on how Vegeta vs Frieza would go. Vegeta would demolish Frieza, Frieza goes desperate, tries (or succeeds) in blowing up the planet, resultantly killing nearly everyone.
Vegeta after taking his two hour nap (if he had a full rest he would be even stronger) went toe to toe with First Form Frieza whose power level was 520k. After Dende’s heal his power level was maybe higher than Third Form Frieza, regardless Vegeta going ssj at that point would have left him with a huge deficit compared to Frieza who wouldn’t have needed to go anywhere near 100% to trounce Vegeta. Even if he had the power he would have let t go fight drag on to savor the beat down he’d be giving Frieza which would allow the latter enough time to blow up Namek lol. Vegeta almost always loses which is why it’s so satisfying when he gets a win. A very well written character in my opinion.
Not really Sure vegetas power was a little lower most of the arc because he was always on the run and hadnt slept for days but the senzu fully recovered him and dende Also healed him fully So in theory at least phyisically he should have been at his peak against Freezer mentally probably not due to lack of sleep
To be fair even the writers hyped up kid Gohan with his potential. technically everyone in the show is a prodigy. So if they think kid Gohan could do it and turn into a super saiyan and beat Frieza on namek then why not especially if he can ass pull beast.
@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD For some reason freiza didn't use the death slicers until the end of the battle.He would also try to destroy vegeta with his own two hands once he realized he had a slight power advantage.He has a better chance than freiza did against goku.
truth is super sayian is a 50x multiplier and goku had a power level of like 3 million when he went ss so it went to 150 million while fireiza full power 100% form had 120 Millions while vegeta only had around 2.4M when he fought freiza so overall he would of had an equal power level of 120M so despite vegeta having an equal powerlevel freiza would of still probably won as he has more experience, vegeta would of been to cocky when he transformed and freiza also could easily make vegeta fight with his rage so he would of started becoming more sloppy and usuing more energy so vegeta would of probaly lost and freiza would of wished for immortality challenge beerus loose however since beeus cant kill him (beerus stated hakai can't kill immortal beings) freiza would of escaped started training unlock his gold form try again and loose again then black form then eventually freiza might of won if he trained for like 100 or 200 years after and heck he might of ran into cell since earth would of been destroyed by cell and majin buu might of been reborn on another planets so maybe freiza also killed cell and majin buu at one point (I typed this at 1:03 in the vide0)
Gohan yes, but solely because Gohan had plothax "Potential" established since day one, so the writers can randomly have him become as powerful as needed for the current situation, and it wouldn't be wrong. Gohan just normally can't figure out how to actually use his inner potential and doesn't actually care to learn.
There's no universe in which Namek SSJ Vegeta could win. No amount of wanting it to happen can change that. Vegeta would let Frieza go to max. Vegeta would get nuked. And even if they were somehow at equal footing, Vegeta would go down anyway, because Frieza would just go into space and take out the entire planet.
what. People use "SSJ is the big multiplier..." As an argument for this? Really? the argument I've heard of is that Vegeta, after getting his chest blown open by krillin, and then having it healed by dende, had received enough of a power boost to reach a power level of 2M-2.5M (latter if you high ball it or whatever), which would still put him below Goku in base, but on par if not slightly above freeza in SSJ, he could probably win the fight due to better BIQ, his hatred for freeza might also just override any ego he feels due to the nature of SSJ as a transformation.
One thing I would like to mention is how Super Saiyan had to be adjusted as a x50 multiplier because it was a narrative necessity for Goku to even win that fight. We can only make the assumption that it is realistic for Vegeta to lose against Frieza because the story was already written and we have the hindsight to reach to the conclusion in the first place. The fight could have gone differently for Vegeta, the power up could have been even higher due to the narrative. Yes, if we only look at the numbers alone, there is no chance, but considering the narrative making a slight change can make all the difference when looking at the what-if.
I think it's most likely that Vegeta would win, Namek saga Vegeta was very ruthless and while yes he let his pride get to his head thinking he was a super saiyan already, and Frieza was holding back. I think it's important to note in the android saga not only was Vegeta a Super Saiyan but he was stronger than sick Goku and everyone else. That really played into his ego. I dunno if that would happen here after being beaten up and nearly killed multiple times in the same couple days. Reasonably though, Vegeta shouldn't be absurdly weaker than base Goku-he is weaker, but sensing 3rd form's power and "knowing" he'd surpass it by healing should put him in the ~2 million range at least. Stack Super Saiyan and he'd confidently overpower 50-75% Frieza and Frieza takes a good bit of time to use his full strength. If Frieza does go all out though he will outclass Vegeta in power, speed and especially durability. Frieza is a TANK. Vegeta would die. Sucks to suck.
From what i remember dbz forums already said vegeta's base power level was too low for the 50x multiplier to score him a win. People seriously have a problem with no googling shit
@@QaamansLand the cursed dragonball thumb pose, everytime someone points at themselves with their thumb and gloats or brags they proceed to get creamed
@@QaamansLand First that comes to mind for me is Super Vegeta squaring up to Perfect Cell, but he also did it when squaring up to final form Frieza on Namek and again against Goku Black in DBS, other characters have done it too, but Vegeta is the meme man for it
I definitely agree with the outcome in this video. As much as I like Vegeta, he definitely wouldn’t have won. Yknow, this reminds me of an older video you did on a similar topic! Got some super nostalgia right here, and got to watch this before work too, so that’s a plus! Thanks, Qaaman! :) Favorite DB UA-camr hands down
Well they also make it clear in the show that while Goku was seemingly struggling against frieza as a super saiyan, Goku was holding back against frieza in the fight and allowing frieza to give him some of the blows he received. There are many instances where Goku could have ended frieza in the fight but Goku didnt want to kill frieza. He only wanted to hurt Frieza’s pride hence dragging out the fight making frieza believe that he could take on Goku but ultimately showing frieza that he was no match for him all along.
I feel like one thing that might change things is Goku tells the others to run, but if Vegeta got Super Saiyan, he probly wouldn't have, and may even like the others being there to watch. That being the case, if Vegeta started losing, the others would probly step in to try and help, and even if they were too weak to do damage, they could at least be a distraction, which may give Vegeta enough time to outlast Frieza and end up becoming victorious. That's if the others there didn't leave though. Of course Goku might've stayed still, and I think even if it was just him, I think he'd have enough power to at least be a distraction or annoyance to Frieza, if I'm not mistaken, he does know solar flare at that point in time I believe?
My theory is that 100% Frieza started out at 200 million and gradually dropped his powerlevel and stamina to about 100 million, explaining why Super Saiyan Goku at 150 million was initially losing and struggling ...
People forget there was that tremendous attack Frieza made. The one where Frieza powered right through Goku's blast and pile drove Goku into the planet. I think that attack made it clear that Frieza was capable of mustering greater feats of strength even at this late stage in the fight. Freiza was held back by his willingness to toy with everyone, something that always plays to the strengths of the Saiyans. Also. by his lack of battle experience leading him to burn out faster.
That was only in the anime. In the manga, the moment Goku went SSJ, he clearly showed his superiority over Freeza. Plus, SSJ Goku completely dominates the fight as soon as everyone else leave Namek.
@@Neathyr I disagree, the manga is not THAT different, I'm reading it right now, yes thete's SOME difference but it's still nowhere near what Future Trunks did to Frieza, it's still a battle for Goku
I have one thing to add, Vegeta was, and always has been, a strategic fighter. When you look at Frieza’s end on Namek, it was because he got too caught up in his own tactics and cut himself in half. While Goku has elements of strategy in his fight with Frieza, most exemplified by his attack from under water when he realized frieza can't sense his ki, he doesn't really fight with any kind of strategy as a super saiyan. I think Vegeta, even when he's in the heat of battle, always fights with some tactic in mind. If he had a equal or near equal power level to frieza, I think his battle experience and strategic mind would probably give Frieza a run for his money. Especially since frieza would probably be even more enraged at seeing Vegeta reach his level than he was with Goku, someone he literally didn't know, which I think would cause him to make more mistakes like cutting himself in half.
I think people also forget that Frieza's biology gives him a major advantage. As we see, Frieza loses half his body and even half his head and then is stranded in space for an extended period of time and still survives long enough to be retrieved by Cold. Frieza and his race seem to be incredibly durable so even if Vegeta was at or close to Frieza's power level, Frieza would probably still win simply because of durability and resilience to attacks.
I remember a theory back in the day that only a super saiyin could kill frieza, like even if another character was stronger than him, they couldn't beat him unless they were super saiyan. What a weird time
Do you really think Vegeta would have killed Frieza without letting him reach 100%? Let's not forget, Vegeta was the one who told him to transform in the first place. Added to this, becoming a Super Saiyan would have totally went to his head to the point where he'd think no one could ever best him. We see this crop up in the Cell saga where he allows him to reach his perfect form out of overconfidence in his abilities. It's the saiyan way.
I added this comment before finishing the video btw. Must've been my saiyan pride, haha. Also I feel the power level police are misguided a bit and I think power levels lost any form of reason at around the start of the Frieza fight. Goku's zenkai boost from 90k to 3 million is a bit ridiculous. That would mean he became 33 and 1/3 times stronger from one near-death zenkai. For reference Vegeta went from 18k to 24k from his first zenkai in the arc. I always thought the 300k - 15 million (Goku) argument made way more sense until the official data was released. No wonder they did away with power levels!
@keesutherat1952 It's a bit different in scenario. Vegeta absolutely hates Frieza on a personal level and would be less willing to let him do anything other that squirm and beg for his life. I think even in the event of Frieza going 100% Vegeta could feed the fear Frieza had of a Super Saiyan the same way he bluffed Gero into running away. With Cell it's less personal and more of a measuring stick of how strong he had become. In the Cell saga Vegeta isn't being persued and isn't resorting to hit and run tactics like he was back on Namek.
@Zikk0_o While I agree that Vegeta hates Frieza on a personal level, I still have to disagree. Vegeta was so confident that he allowed Frieza to transform from form 1 - 2. He, Killin and Gohan were doomed until Piccolo showed up. I'm not sure what you mean about bluffing Gero. Gero fled because he knew he had no chance of winning and if he was destroyed at that point, there would be nobody to activate 17 and 18.
Ok, I see what you mean by bluffing him now. I had forgotten the detail about him being drained after 19 and losing super saiyan. Probably because of how easily he dispatched him.
@@keesutherat1952 Vegeta knew that Frieza was toying with them in his suppressed state so there really wasn't any point in wasting time. Whether he knew it or not, Vegeta goading Frieza into transforming is what ultimately led to Frieza's stamina burning quicker. Frieza states that he suppresses his true form because he can't quite control it. By transforming early against Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin, Frieza had already begun draining his stamina before even fighting Goku. Going 100% later against SSJ Goku just made things much worse for himself.
One thing about vegita that confuses me is that he is super duper strong in his base form compared to goku, which uses loads of kaioken boosts to multiply his: yet in most of his fights vegita just doesn't last in any of his fights goku's kaioken is suposed to drain him really quickly, yet he seems to have way more endurance than vegita ever did (as far as i know)
The thing here is, we don’t know Vegeta’s post-Dende Battle Power, but the important thing is, it’s way the hell less than Goku’s. Goku was able to handle what Frieza was giving Vegeta at 3 mil, Vegeta’s not even gonna be breaking 2. Why’s this important? Because SSJ is an amplifier, and Frieza’s full power is 120 mil. Even if he’d gone SSJ, Vegeta’s getting pasted across Namek.
@@Oznerock My guy, Kaioken is not part of SSJ. Goku was at 3 Mil when he came out to fight Frieza, he didn't get any buffs during the fight. He topped off at 20x output via Kaioken, then resorted to the Spirit Bomb when that wasn't enough. Then he went SSJ and jumped to 150 Mil to beat Frieza's 120.
I believe both Goku and Frieza were weakening significantly as the battle went on. This was a major plot point in the Cell Saga, that maintaining the Super Saiyan transformation is incredibly draining. The difference is that Goku was *already* stronger than Frieza when the fight started, so Frieza was weakening faster as he took more and more damage. In other words, it's very likely that even if Super Saiyan Vegeta was the same power level as 100% Frieza, *Frieza* would be the one outlasting *him.*
It's so simple it just needs a few sentences to be explained. Vegeta loses against opponents comparable in power, who actually know him. Any opponent who does not know Vegeta's personality, is usually f*cked.
I don't think vegeta could beat frieza fast enough to not be blown up by namek also as RoF showed us when vegeta inevitably stops to mock frieza, frieza would just blow up the planet.
Yeah, pretty much whatever way you want to slice it. It doesn't look good for Vegeta. I never understood who power levels just go up so fast, like 1 day to a week of like push-ups, you could easily x2 your power it felt like lol
Here is an argument based on what is shown ratter than in fan hyped up numbers. 1 SS is a multiplier not a base line this is a fact 2 SS vegeta after 3 years of training was equal if not a little stronger than SS Trunks, the same Trunks that speed run/sucker punched mecha frieza yes, but also the one whose attacks were reflected by goku with literally one finger Using this we could make the educated guess that base namek Vegeta was way weaker than base namek Goku, as was explicitly shown time after time in the later parts of the namek saga so no, Vegeta would not have won against Frieza
6:17 - Let's be honest here, there's no way in hell Vegeta would have turned down the opportunity to fight Frieza at 100%. Giving the villain the chance to reach maximum power is one of his most notoriously bad habits throughout the entirety of Dragon Ball Z. His line of reasoning for allowing Frieza to go full power would probably have been similar to Goku's, in that he wanted to humiliate his opponent and show that even at his strongest, he still couldn't defeat him. Only for it to of course backfire on him due to how arrogant Vegeta is.
You forgot that power levels dont mean much if the character is not at 100 percent. Goku took a really bad beating in the frieza battle before going super saiyan. Frieza did to which I guess helped level out the playing field making near equal in power. If vegeta had went to super saiyan at the start of the fight(assuming his pl was 2,400,000) without taking damage, then his fight with full power frieza would have been similar than the one with goku, because goku and vegeta have more skill than frieza.
I get that in the Cell Saga, Vegeta let Cell absorb 18 for a better flight, but I don't think he would have done that here. 1) Vegeta was far more ruthless at this time. He was killing defenseless knocked out Ginyu Force members, regularly seeking out and slaughtering other weak enemies, etc. 2) When Vegeta let Cell power up, it was because he was wiping the floor with Semi perfect Cell. Freeza still would have been a challenge, so Vegeta would have been less likely to let him power up.
The 50x multiplier is what a fully trained potential for super saiyan 1 will deliver. That is, what Goku and Gohan and maybe what Vegeta and Trunks were able to crank out of Super Saiyan 1 during the Cell Game. Toriyama viewed the initial multiplier as being "more like ten". This admittedly doesn't make a lot of sense, as Goku was already using 10x Kaio-ken, (and even 20x momentarily). One factor was that Goku was not only deadly enraged, but coldly committed, not expecting to even survive the planet blowing up, like a suicide fighter, yet still wanted to crush 100% Frieza. This gave him a certain edge. Also, of course, "more like ten" doesn't mean straight up ten. The multiplier might have been 15x for example; also, super saiyan isn't as exhausting and damaging as Kaio-ken can be. Personally, I've wondered if Goku slipped a basic Kaio-ken in to defeat 100% Frieza? I know the text never said so, but it also never said he was using Kaio-ken at all until King Kai said he was.
Goku wasn't using kaioken because, if he was we as a audience would know and the "invisible kaioken" was basically an out of order telling because when King Kai say: "But he's already using" showing Goku using it's to imply that he was using all time just to give a fake out surprise
The argument that Namek Vegeta would know not to let Frieza power up kind of falls apart when you remember it was Vegeta who goaded Frieza into his second form to begin with.
Way I see it, Vegeta goes SSJ during his fight and forces Frieza into his 100% Form, Vegeta dies in his cockiness against 100%, and forces Goku into SSJ aswell leading to how the original turned out with Frieza eventually turning into Mecha after he is rescued and Vegeta revived.
I don't see how Vegeta couldn't beat Frieza. He was sitting at or just over 2 mill; not much weaker than Goku in the grand scheme. Once Frieza goes 100%, he'd have the advantage for a little while but Vegeta was shown in every fight he had up till the showdown with Frieza that he can take a beating; he has the endurance to outlast Frieza till the tyrant tires out. After Frieza starts running cold, Vegeta could easily kill him. It's just a matter of whether he'd prolong Frieza's suffering by torturing him and/or if Frieza can somehow manage to land a sneak attack like he tried to do with Goku.
@JC2007. If you just take the numbers at face value then yeah but as I explained, it's deeper than that. Frieza couldn't maintain his full power for very long before his stamina and power level started dropping like a stone. Vegeta was shown to be able to withstand punishment and he's actually more or less on Frieza's level with SSJ. Frieza may have the edge for a brief window but I don't see him killing Vegeta in that time frame. Vegeta will just keeping bouncing back until Frieza inevitably peters out like he did with Goku. When that happens, Frieza is toast.
@@danielsilva9502He doesn't though, all he has to do, is start the namek explosion sequence and he wins, goku, with a different of 30M barely managed to escape namek, vegeta is weaker than frieza so it will make it far worse
What Vegeta didn't understand was that Super Saiyan is NOT a birthright, its from hard hork and it comes in need, not from desire, he underestimated Goku due to him being seen as a low class Saiyan, just because you're an elite, doesn't make you strong
Then how did super Saiyan trunks so easily defeat frizea his father and his army with no sparring partner or no one to help him train after Gohan’s death
Going by scaling Vegeta surpasses Third form Frieza and was able to see Friezas attacks when no one else could. Going by pure statements on Friezas 50%, Vegeta beats him. Albeit with significant difficulty. Remember in the manga the fight was far more in Gokus favor.
Vegeta’s power level (not canon but it’s assumed) is 2,000,000. Super Saiyan is only a 50 times boost so that’s only a 100,000,000. Frieza 100% is 120,000,000. Vegeta gets curbed stomped UNLESS he almost gets killed and then gets healed again then transforms. Otherwise I don’t see him winning.
@@AlmightyKing143 No. He was clearly far above Piccolo who was dominating Friezas second form at over a million. It was then stated atleast on TWO different instances that Frieza was still holding power back IN HIS SECOND FORM after transforming with a stated over a million power level. He then transformed twice since then and Vegeta was still confident he can beat him after his Zenkai from Krillin. Vegeta isn't rushing final form Frieza when he's still weaker than the form before it. Vegeta is around 2.4 million Goku at 3 million. Piccolo at 1.75m and Frieza FP at 120m.
Goku didn't "Stuggle" against 100% Freeza. He did what he always does, allows his opponent to hit him with everything they have, before giving it back to them. Goku's power was always higher in the anime, even before the stamina issue set it
Goku never really struggled imo.. he could have had finished Frieza with one big kamehameha if he wanted to. But that never happens in dbz for obvious reasons.
I said this already. Dragon Vall, like most stories was originaly written where a ceiling existed for most characters. Frieza was so powerful, that the only way to beat him was to get past that ceiling and become a Super Saiyan. You can mention power levels and mathematics you know darn wrll Toriyama does not care about. Super Saiyan was depicted as the ultimate form. Which Frieza feared. Any warrior that achieved Super Saiyan would of beaten Frieza. When Androids and Cell arrived, the plot narrative was that "not even a Super Saiyan is enough." A regular Super Saiyan could not defeat new foes. Later stories added power creep and no ceilings existed. Its the same problem where Battle of Gods indicated the only way to face Beerus is to become Super Saiyan God because no training could reach that level. Power creep made that plotline irrelevant later on. There is no "explanation." But back on Namek Saga, a Super Saiyan would of beaten Frieza. Frieza's emphasized fear of that legend was made clear for a reason. Obviously in Namek Saga only a person like Goku could be Super Saiyan. Later on, everyone could
Frieza had a mental hold over Vegeta since before he was even born, and would've used that to manipulate his anger, outsmart him, or go full power immediately to kill Vegeta before he could get used to his own strength
I think its narrative vs mathematical power scaling. Frieza feared the super saiyan, and that is what would of defeated Frieza. That seemed to be Toriyama's writing intent
Then again, Toriyama probably did not like Vegeta. If Vegeta and Goku switched training methods in the Time Chamber, the story would probably punish Vegeta and reward Goku.
But during the Frieza saga, the entire narrative buildup was for Frieza to be defeated by the Super Saiyan
@@VanessaWong-yi5pe valid points you make. I'm looking at it through a narrative point as well in that Vegeta is too emotionally driven at that time during Namek and Frieza knew everything to say to make Vegeta angry and unfocused since he basically raised Vegeta.
Get used to its strenght?Goku didnt really had to get used
@@VanessaWong-yi5pe Because that Super Saiyan was Goku , it was foreshadowing Goku's power not that of any Super Saiyan
People also forget, that even without Vegeta's ego, unmastered Super Saiyan makes a Saiyan somewhat less rational.
Absolutely. We saw Vegeta goading Freeza to his 2nd form when he thought he had the advantage. Imagine a Vegeta hyped on Super Sayian power and rage? Vegeta would want to crush Freeza at his best, humilate him and leave no doubt that he was the strongest in the Universe.
@@dannylopez5976and that might've been his downfall
Goku was very rational as a ssj on namek
@@SuperKamiGuruubro, he would’ve died and wouldn’t have been able to come back if the ginyu force’s ships weren’t there. Remember, this is BECAUSE he wanted to fight frieza at his best. Not very rational, isn’t that?
@@Lohfilter watch or read dragon ball
Ah, the ol’ “Idea of Vegeta” vs. “Who Vegeta actually is”.
Timestamp?
@@QaamansLand about 7:10
Who fans think Vegeta is: "An inspirational underdog whose pride gets the best of him, but always strives to come back and win no matter the cost, and will avenge the honor of his fallen people and reclaim his birthright"
Who Bejita actually was: "Imagine if Freeza was a monkey"
@@Yuli_Banwhat you think vegeta is : monkey frieza
What vegeta actually is : punching bag who can walk
@@QaamansLand
The Power Level police are justified.
Vegeta would probably die due to the planet exploding because he couldn't take out freeza fast enough
I should have added that point. The pressure is on Vegeta.
True. Vegeta contradicts himself sometimes. He tells Goku to not be too soft and careless though he would have savored (if he had the power, which he wouldn’t have even after going ssj from a power level around Third Form Frieza) the best down against Frieza, leaving the latter enough time to turn the tables by exploding Namek.
*beat down
@@QaamansLandFrieza never would’ve needed to resort to planet destroying either since he only did so do to being at a disadvantage.
honestly, I think vegeta would destroy the planet himself once he realizes he can't win agient a 100% frieza. I mean, he tried it against goku in the saiyan saga.
You just know that Vegeta is doing a thumb pose, letting Frieza go 100%, get his ass kicked, then give up mid fight and cry 😂
Basically
🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
And he only does it with the most powerful people too. Though technically he already did it with Frieza when they first fight.
Don forget holding that left arm and screaming to the gods about how unfair it is when he himself sold the fade.
I WANNA BEAT FRIEZA! I WANNA! I WANNA!
If Vegeta could hold his own against Third form and then went super saiyan, there's a possibility. But given that his base power is more vague, I think Frieza would have had more of a chance in the encounter.
IIRC guides put Frieza on Namek at 120MM, and Vegeta after being healed by Dende at 250k, which would be 125MM after Super Saiyan boost (initially 50x). Still weaker than Goku, but also still stronger than Frieza. Though maybe that gap in power is small enough and Vegeta's anger would be overwhelming enough to cover the gap?
@@The2bGaming
5M is a small enough gap in power, that someone who is a superior fighter like frieza can close.
If and thats a big if vegeta would have won it would have been after a hard fought fight like barely.
Also to keep in mind the saiyen saga and start of the cell saga vegeta is much more ruthless and would go straight for the kill if possible.
So whilst a vegeta W is possible due to having 125M power level Vs friezas 120, its not as straight forward as it seems.
@@Musttaquilla i can't think of a single fight where the weaker fighter ends up winning. So far in dragon ball higher power level equals the win at the end of the day.
@@woomyboy98 piccolo & goku vs raditz, frieza, goku & 17 vs jiren.
@@Musttaquillawell raditz got the same treatment as vegeta (getting jumped) infact the only way someone weaker wins is if they jump the stronger.
I'll agree with your final argument, absolutely.
People often say that "Vegeta was smart and cunning in the Namek arc."
_Because he knew how outclassed he was!_ His whole sneaky treachery was only a thing because he knew for a fact how strong Freeza was just in his first form, and knew better than to rush headlong into a fight with him and his most elite henchmen.
Once he actually achieves Super Saiyan, he has no reason to be cunning anymore. In fact, his plan from the getgo was the wish for immortality, then deliberately throw himself into the fire just to abuse the zenkai boosts and then use his newfound superiority to deliver unto Freeza everything Freeza did to him. In his mad mind, the _densetsu no Sūpā Saiyajin_ might as well have been the same thing as immortality. Furthermore, the potential pride gain he'd get of fighting and defeating Freeza at 100% would warp his little monkey brain far more than if he just kills Freeza as is. His honor and hubris would never have allowed him to miss an opportunity to humiliate Freeza to the maximal possible extent.
Basically, Bejita was destined to job
Also I don't want to necessarily bring IRL intentions and factors into the manga's story, but let's be fair here: if Vegeta actually _did_ achieve Super Saiyan first... Toriyama would have absolutely let him get clobbered to death and then have Goku achieve the form to show how to do it "right." I'm glad he didn't go that route because Vegeta didn't deserve Super Saiyan in any form at that point and it would've cheapened the transformation early _and_ the irony of how the legendary Super Saiyan was achieved by the one Saiyan who did not care about Saiyan pride and was doing it out of compassionate revenge and couldn't give less of a shit about what a "supa saiya-jin" is supposed to be.
All the talk about battle powers is fun in a nerdy, geeky way, but realistically Toriyama could have written somewhere "Super Saiyan Vegeta has a power level of 1 billion, Freeza is 100 million" and he still would have had Vegeta lose because _laughs_ and _Goku wins_
We don't even need to talk in hypotheticals. When Vegeta first turned SSJ in the Android Saga, his ego was so out of control that he was attacking and antagonizing his allies, and got himself beaten within an inch of his life because he couldn't accept 18 was stronger than him.
Against Frieza, who he has even more of a desire to flex against, there's no way he's going to be thinking rationally and strategically enough to win that in a way that wasn't brute force.
@@DLxxx She wasn't, they were neck and neck but he didn't have infinite energy
@@borderhopper2148I think he got his point across….. this isn’t a scaling convo
He no longer has his cunning sneaky dirty shit more ever since he got ssj
Even if Vegeta does find a way to win, he will get cocky, overstay/torture Frieza and end up getting blown up with the planet or something, I think the ROF movie is a perfect example of why Vegeta always loses.
His fight with Cell is another great example of his habit of getting cocky and loving to play with his food.
Except by the point of ROF Vegeta should have been wise and smart enough to not fall for that but did anyways because Super dosent know how to make characters not be their past selves considering he is like cell saga Vegeta with his hate boner for goku
Vegeta is already aware of what Frieza does when backed into a corner
Toriyama should have never stolen that win from Vegeta that was a shit writing decision and was bland
Giving Goku the win was bland boring and unemotional and a Terrible writing choice
Not to mention the fact that Frieza did it without ever charging an attack which is what anybody except for beerus does when planning to destroy a planet
which is ridiculous because it was rigged for Goku to take it from the start considering how Goku yelling made Frieza stop and comedically watch Goku charge a blast up and shoot him without ever actually going for the attack
No that was written to rob Vegeta of something great because toriyama dosent like him and wants Goku to have all the glory
And that is 100% the reason
EXCELLENT WORK. QAAMAN SSJ VEGETA VS FRIEZA 😈😈😈☠️😈😈😈
@@gabrielchastain6091Lmao.
@@gabrielchastain6091ngl there’s a way to combat this even tho it’s a bit head cannon. Vegeta in RoF was fighting freeza for a second time so he was doing what he been wanted to do
Interesting to learn the differences between the anime and manga's versions of the Goku v Frieza fight. The anime had me thinking 100% Frieza was initially stronger than SSJ Goku, but when Goku got up again, another zenkai boost made him stronger than full power Frieza.
This is what me and my folks believed for the longest time. After Frieza initially transformed, he was BODYING Goku for a while. It evened out over the course of the fight, but (at least in the anime) nothing suggested Goku was stronger the whole time. Can't fault people for being confused, lol
No. You definitely can discret the anime
The manga is the actual work of Toriyama himself while the anime is purposely enlogated and has tons of fillers that often directly contradict the Internal logic of the series
Kinda strange how folks will have you believing Gokunwas destroying Frieza. The definition of "destroying" an opponent is what he did to Nappa or the Ginyus. Meanwhile both anime and manga have Goku and Frieza throwing hands for five damn minutes, bith bloodied and tired by the end of it. It all came down to mentality and stamina issues. Goku had righteous fury locked in like a predator calm and way better control over his immense ki, meanwhile Frieza just poured his power out wildly and was filled with fear, dread, desparation and arrogance.
That thumbnail is beautiful 💀
Serious or Sarcastic? I'm asking for feedback.
@@QaamansLand Kinda both. The Frieza art had me dying. I think it's a great thumbnail, really
@@QaamansLandseriously, turning perc angle into frieza is perfect 😂
@@QaamansLandForreal? The reason why I clicked the video
Same. I've seen this idea done before but still clicked because of it.
@@edmundjones8500
I think Goku struggled against Frieza so much as ssj is he was still heavily damaged and fatigued. He was already at his limit leaning on piccolo for support because he couldn't walk. He was barely hanging on through adrenaline and the desire to finish his mission.
Ye that's a good point and at this point ssj was way more taxing than later on in the cell saga
unlocking SSj form restored Goku's power completely though, his prior status was unrelated
@@smaragdchaos Explain how that makes sense.
Begin.
@@smaragdchaos thats not true. super saiyan doesnt heal or restore. it drains.
@@smaragdchaos yeah sure buddy stop pulling shit out of your ass and start explaining
That image of the power level police officer was freaking great.
This is a very loaded what-if.
- The most meta answer is that Toriyama would never have allowed Vegeta to win.
- Ignoring that, the whole 50x multiplier was only canonized later, and it wasn't even Toriyama who canonized it. The narrative of the time was that super saiyan would win regardless who achieved it.
- If we do go with the 50x multiplier and put Vegeta at the same power level as 100% Frieza or even a little lower it is reasonable to think that Vegeta could outlast Frieza. Not only because of Frieza's low stamina, but also because Vegeta can be extremely durable when he wants to be. Remember that Vegeta would NEVER have given up if he actually achieved SSJ.
So I think that by all measures Vegeta should be able to do it, but it obviously wouldn't happen because Vegeta just isn't allowed to beat a main villain.
"the whole 50x multiplier was only canonized later"
With the Kaioken multipliers, and Frieza's Final Form being confirmed to be "only 50%" of his power once he goes "Full Power," the 50x multiplier for SSJ is _the lowest_ you can bring it with how one-sided the fight was.
Kaioken x20 Goku was around equal to 50% Frieza, and SSJ Goku was clearly a lot stronger than Full Power Frieza. If SSJ was 40x or lower, then the fight wouldn't have been so one-sided in Goku's favor. 45x is a bit weird of a number, and isn't even that far off from 50x. 50x is a nice multiple of 10 that also lets SSJ be enough of a boost beyond Kaioken x20 to make sense within the story.
So the power boost from SSJ (unless you argue that Goku being exhausted or otherwise spending a lot of his energy in the fight prior lowered his power substantially, in which case the power boost would have to be even higher) was always 50x _or more._ The guidebooks just put that together and made exactly 50x the go-to number.
TL;DR, semantics that probably doesn't change the argument too much, but I felt was at least important enough to note.
Toriyama did say he intended ssj to be a multiplier in daizenhsuu so since his base is low than goku no matter his pride will be obliterated once again
@@christiancinnabars1402 Oh yeah he definitely got 50x stronger. I was just saying that SSJ could originally have been an automatic 150,000,000 regardless of base power level.
@@ohhellwhereami2574 Power level is important, but there's more to it than that. If Vegeta is at the same power level as 100% Frieza then he should have it in the bag due to Frieza's low stamina and because of his ability to take damage.
Even if we low-ball him and put him a little lower than 100% Frieza it should be the same. Especially with the ego boost he would have gotten from SSJ.
Remember that he already fought first form Frieza with a small power disadvantage and he was still able to hold him off.
@@Ryan-uq7kj that's because freiza was humiliating him lmao, plus goku had better technique than vegeta that's why stamina mattered, if anything ego is gonna crush vegeta himself he isn't not a man who fights for others that's why his ego boost would be barely noticeable freiza can survive very fatal injuries freiza definitely got it plus vegeta was exhausted as hell unlike goku he wouldn't have someone stalling for him
Ive also heard the conjecture that frieza was weakened by the spirit bomb, and that that limited him to 120 mil. So, without the spirit bomb, frieza would be over 120 mil.
Then again goku was folded back savage by frieza before he finished the spirit bomb, I'd say they were both weakend
This is false, Freeza was never weakened by that
@@smaragdchaos He literally announces that he almost died. King Kai himself thought he was finished. And NONE of the Z Fighters could sense him before he re-emerged.
He was absolutely damaged HARD by that attack.
@@DLxxxno he was not😭 he tanked that while only using half of his power
120,000,000 never made sense anyway because kaiokenx20 goku was already 60,000,000 but since the Kamehameha also doubles the users power (raditz) arc technically goku would of already been at 120,000,000 with that techhnique alone and frieza blocked it with one hand which would mean he was already past 120,000,000 at half power anyway. Which would put ssj goku and 100% frieza closer to 300,000,000 also the gaps in friezas dont make sense with the diazenshuu power levels either frieza and goku honestly at least in story are probably more like 5,000,000 or 6,000,000
Since they’re about evenly match they end up killing each other, it ends in a draw
Vegeta has been waiting his entire life to get revenge on Freeza. There is no way he would rush it, he would want to savor it.
Sure, but he wouldn't let freeza get a chance to overtake him. Vegeta was worried each time freeza went to a new form.
@@coryhafer7285 after going super saiyan he would be buying fully into the legend that its invincible and unstoppable and not have that fear (wrongly)
@@coryhafer7285 yeah he wouldn't let freiza go full power after having a massive advantage...like when he fought semi-perfect cell and let him absorb android 18...totally out of character...
WHO MAD THAT FRIEZA THUMBNAIL LMAO?!
🤫
It depends on what would have caused him to transform. If he was angry enough to transform, he might have been angry enough to seriously injure Frieza before he could power up to full.
"Stupid monkey. I liked you, Vegeta. I was so kind all these years. I let you and that worthless brother of yours live and this is how you repay me. What was his name? Tarble? Ah, yes. I've had Ginyu keeping watch on him. I think I'll pay him a visit once I'm done with you. Do you have a message for your dear brother? No? Then let's get to it! No more monkey business! Ha ha ha ha."
If frieza took Tarbles cheeks in front of him I think vegeta would transform.
Imagine Linda voicing this
"Are you talking about tarble? I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT TARBLE!!!!"
I really don't think Vegeta cares about Tarble all that much
@@TheMajinHermit Vegeta's just good at hiding his feelings. Modern Vegeta cares an awful lot about his friends and family.
Best case for Vegeta is that he goes for the double kill and self destructs so that Frieza doesn't escape the planet before it exolodes
Wild thumbnail
I honestly don't think Vegeta wins this. By this point in the story Vegeta is weaker than Goku, so if he dealt with Full Power Frieza he's losing.
...True, but at this point, it's not like his first instinct is to incapacitate instead of kill. _He'd_ probably try to cut frieza in half _himself._ He might be weaker than Goku, but it'll still kill a MFer when he goes for the throat punch.
...and despite that, he'd definitely get himself killed going in recklessly.
Vegeta was sitting around 2 mill. He wasn't that much weaker than Goku.
With 100% Frieza, all he'd have to do is outlast him and in every fight he's had up to that point, Vegeta was shown to be able to take punishment so being able to withstand Frieza till he tires out should be easy work for him. Once Frieza loses stamina and power, the fight is Vegeta's.
Are u sure his forceful Zenkai boost worked? @@TheBamaPrinceable
@@TheBamaPrinceable Meh thats still a million difference in power. goku still has a million more than vegeta. He is gonna be way more hurt then goku was.
@@TheBamaPrinceable the real question is, would frieza even get the CHANCE to float going 100% to Vegeta? I mean, we know for a FACT he'd let him, but I doubt he'd relent enough while frieza is relatively powered down.
THAT is kind of a toss-up.
"For decades"
Sometimes i forget DBZ was out in the 90's.
That thumbnail is killing me lol
I can’t wait for these what ifs. This is gonna be the best Dragonball game
Vegeta's ego/stupidity in this situation is exactly what was on my mind, In a theoretical battle, the Ki spammer would quickly wear out
and Frezzer knowed how to provoke him.
You don't think vegeta would prove freiza, especially since he would basically be raising a super sayian.
Though imagine the sheer mental damage Vegeta would have suffered if he actually did it and achieved the legendary form
..... and _STILL_ lost to Freeza
It'd probably break his brain worse than every loss he took in the actual series times eleven.
Fully confident Vegeta knows how to play mind games too (Look at his fight with Semi-perfect Cell). Even if they matched power levels, Frieza was scared of the legend of Super Saiyan. Vegeta coulde provoke Frieza into getting sloppy a lot easier than the reverse.
@@carrot708To be honest I think freezer would probably provoke vageta enough times to do something dumb just to prove a point
@@carrot708Fully confident Vegeta is fking worthless.
Fully confident Vegeta failed to kill Goku, failed to kill Frieza twice, failed to kill Android 18 and Semi-perfect Cell.
Vegeta is the eternal jobber
When Vegeta was beaten and humiliated to the point that he was crying for Goku to avenge the saiyan race etc, and somehow unlocked SSJ from all that pain and rage, he could have finished him
Yes sir, a new upload.
LMAO got my profile picture set as your thumbnail
How did you edit out the text?
@@QaamansLand found it online without it lol hopefully I don't have the only picture without it now
Bro is that Kurt Angle lmao
Bro, i love hearing your storytelling voice haha
You're a great debater too! Nice vid 👌
Bro the thumbnail has me DEAD
Excellent video quaaman loved it.
I dunno, I think it’d be kinda close. Goku could barely stand when he went SSJ, so I imagine he wasn’t even at 3 mil battle power. I think vegeta would be more likely to lose but he still has a good chance to win
I agree. He was badly damaged.
@@QaamansLandso I imagine if vegeta was fresh he could probably win like goku did, but if he turned SSJ after his beatdown he’d almost definitely lose
I assume the ssj power boost sent him back to full strength
@@danielsilva9502if I had to guess I’d say SSJ gives you an adrenaline spike and a boost in yuki or courage, which can strengthen your overall ki output, but if your body is damaged you still can’t perform as well as you are fresh, even with adrenaline
Yes, but Frieza also just took a spirit bomb to the face. So the Frieza fighting this hypothetical Vegeta would be somewhat stronger than the one that fought SSJ Goku.
I love the way u explain things Qaa. Btw I'm one of ur mods.
Things to consider: Full power Freeza was beating the brakes off SSJ Goku for the first third or so of their fight. To the point that I think he was actually stronger, just burning himself out.
They were both tired and injured, but Freeza getting hit by the spirit bomb isn't something to dismiss. I think he was way more roughed up than Goku despite the beating Freeza laid on him before this and Goku's abuse of Kaioken to try to get the upper hand.
Freeza also never trained a day in his life. He isn't used to be pushed to his limit like Goku is. Like I said, I think Freeza burned himself out.
What I am saying is I think there's a chance GOKU couldn't have beaten him had Freeza not been hit by the spirit bomb first. It is absolutely canon that injuries and fatigue are a thing, Tambourine demonstrated that nicely against Goku, Vegeta was finished off by Gohan who'd never have pulled that off if Goku hadn't beaten the wheels off of him first, and 17 and 18's ace in the hole being that they never get tired and can wear down an opponent near them in strength.
So it really depends on the circumstances Vegeta goes super saiyan under. If he did it when Freeza deflected his planet buster attack instead of breaking down and crying... he loses. He'd let Freeza go to 100% just like Goku, and while he'd put up a fight I think he just gets mauled at that point.
Gohan on the other hand might fair better despite being weaker than Vegeta. Unless he goes into 'pulling the wings off a fly' mode like he did against Cell he'd just go berserk and blow Freeza up before he can get to full power.
So... Goku almost drowned after the Spirit Bomb, he was more, and when I say more I meant to say WAY MORE, tired than Freezer.
Like, Goku leaves that fight and get to Yardrat almost dead, he was more injuried than Freeza.
And, if you think about it, Freeza is more resistent than Goku, MUCH more. He was defeated like, three separade times, was weaker when Goku let him in Namek, take a blast of energy in his face, a planet explodes in his face and he was still alive... I do believe his power level doens't reflect his endurance...
@@PauloHenrique-op9zw yeah but Freeza was missing part of his tail and was squinting in one eye
Checkmate atheists
I will agree going in Goku was probably more tired
full power frieza being equal to goku is anime filler my guy
@@sneedchuck5477 marginally better than 'my dude' but that's not how I remember their initial exchange after he reached full power.
It was just all downhill from there.
I guess the most interesting 1 here is this idea you said if vegetas power is 2,4000,000 and the 50x multiplier puts him at 120,000,000 this brings back into play the idea of him outlasting Frieza. It is unlikely that Frieza would be able to unleash a killing blow on a fighter exactly as strong as him. It would more likely be a slug fest like the one fought by Piccolo and Android 17 after Piccolo fused with Kami where it appears both fighters are exactly the same strength (One interesting point is that Piccolo does not use his strongest attack "the Light Grenade" on 17 but rather on Cell who has grown stronger than Piccolo at this time but it would have been interesting to see if that ability would have been too much for 17 and even his shield). But in the case of a Full Power Frieza vs Super Saiyan Vegeta Slug Fest it would be Frieza who would wear out quicker and once this happened Vegeta would show no mercy. Of course its arguable Frieza would try the same trick he did on earth in Super and blow up the planet instantly and whether a weaker Frieza than the one in Super would survive this explosion but he certainly could kill Vegeta this way in a last desperate way.
Vegeta realizing the legend only to still lose would be hilarious
That thumbnail 😮
Feedback?
@@QaamansLand Frieza gave me a Jump Scare 😂
That thumbnail is insane
Now I'm just wondering, can we say Namek Frieza was a *skilled fighter* at all? Because, yeah there's all that talk of him being a mutant and a prodigy, but the fact he never trained for combat before is hammered down quite a lot in the story, and he literally cut himself in half with his own attack (like Piccolo Jr got hit by his own attack in his first fight with Goku, he was more technical than catless Mewtwo but also kinda like 5 years old)... Frieza's only TRULY refined skill was suppressing his own power, because even while doing so, he had more than enough power to comfortably curbstomp any and all opposition... until he didn't.
Vegeta, on the other hand, was also a prodigy of sorts even if not a mutant, but the greatest difference is that Vegeta showed to be capable of strategizing and being resourceful overall, much moreso than the likes of Frieza ever did, though our prince here still brute-forced things whenever possible... point is, he was a skilled fighter beyond just being a powerhouse.
If we're gonna make the argument that Vegeta would be dumbed down by his Super Saiyan form and his super ego, we also HAVE to make the argument for Frieza being scared to hell and back. Neither of them would be fighting with a straight mind, but honestly I'd make an argument for Frieza being dragged down the most, with the mere idea of Vegeta being the one to end him, he should be more angry than he could ever be against (non TFS) Goku, and Vegeta would RELISH in this, rub salt into the wound, add insult to injury, and make fun of Frieza nonstop even if he's not undeniably superior. Humiliating an enemy is just another way to stroke his own ego, so I'm pretty confident to say it's fair game.
In conclusion:
(A) - If they're both close to the same Power Level, SSJ Vegeta only loses by HEAVILY sabotaging himself, having the higher skill and stamina, he can do whatever until Frieza drains himself dry.
(B) - If Vegeta is considerably but not alarmingly weaker, he could lose by constantly trying to overpower Frieza, which is... likely enough, but Vegeta could win by managing to pick a different strategy before dying.
He's a Talent Fighter he (like Broly and other prodigy's) have pretty good battle iq if untrained you could definitely say that frieza is skilled Fighter if nowhere near Goku and Gang.
Yes, he was able to hold his own against goku, who was literally outskilling and copying martial arts masters. Goku is literally the most skilled combatant.
I think Resurrection F had an answer to the fans on how Vegeta vs Frieza would go.
Vegeta would demolish Frieza, Frieza goes desperate, tries (or succeeds) in blowing up the planet, resultantly killing nearly everyone.
Dang I i was hoping for that vegeta desth face moment from the android "ghosts if the past" episode to be in the video
Vegeta after taking his two hour nap (if he had a full rest he would be even stronger) went toe to toe with First Form Frieza whose power level was 520k.
After Dende’s heal his power level was maybe higher than Third Form Frieza, regardless Vegeta going ssj at that point would have left him with a huge deficit compared to Frieza who wouldn’t have needed to go anywhere near 100% to trounce Vegeta.
Even if he had the power he would have let t go fight drag on to savor the beat down he’d be giving Frieza which would allow the latter enough time to blow up Namek lol.
Vegeta almost always loses which is why it’s so satisfying when he gets a win. A very well written character in my opinion.
Not really
Sure vegetas power was a little lower most of the arc because he was always on the run and hadnt slept for days but the senzu fully recovered him and dende Also healed him fully
So in theory at least phyisically he should have been at his peak against Freezer mentally probably not due to lack of sleep
To be fair even the writers hyped up kid Gohan with his potential.
technically everyone in the show is a prodigy.
So if they think kid Gohan could do it and turn into a super saiyan and beat Frieza on namek then why not
especially if he can ass pull beast.
i'm a stupidly big Vegeta fan but my man would get absolutely BODIED by Frieza 🤷🏿♂️
Not bodied but he would still lose
No Freezer-Dono, Yamete! 😂
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GODAll he has to do is outlast freiza.
@@tysonpeterson9552 not really, because Frieza could just blow up the planet or kill Vegeta with his death saucers
@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD For some reason freiza didn't use the death slicers until the end of the battle.He would also try to destroy vegeta with his own two hands once he realized he had a slight power advantage.He has a better chance than freiza did against goku.
It basically comes down to if Vegeta just goes for the kill as soon as he transformed, but if he fucks around and finds out freeza at 100% washes him.
truth is super sayian is a 50x multiplier and goku had a power level of like 3 million when he went ss so it went to 150 million while fireiza full power 100% form had 120 Millions while vegeta only had around 2.4M when he fought freiza so overall he would of had an equal power level of 120M so despite vegeta having an equal powerlevel freiza would of still probably won as he has more experience, vegeta would of been to cocky when he transformed and freiza also could easily make vegeta fight with his rage so he would of started becoming more sloppy and usuing more energy so vegeta would of probaly lost and freiza would of wished for immortality challenge beerus loose however since beeus cant kill him (beerus stated hakai can't kill immortal beings) freiza would of escaped started training unlock his gold form try again and loose again then black form then eventually freiza might of won if he trained for like 100 or 200 years after and heck he might of ran into cell since earth would of been destroyed by cell and majin buu might of been reborn on another planets so maybe freiza also killed cell and majin buu at one point (I typed this at 1:03 in the vide0)
ngl i saw the rest and yea seems good
"Beerus will lose"
Like he wouldnt just obliterate friezas body regardless😭
Gohan yes, but solely because Gohan had plothax "Potential" established since day one, so the writers can randomly have him become as powerful as needed for the current situation, and it wouldn't be wrong.
Gohan just normally can't figure out how to actually use his inner potential and doesn't actually care to learn.
There's no universe in which Namek SSJ Vegeta could win. No amount of wanting it to happen can change that.
Vegeta would let Frieza go to max. Vegeta would get nuked. And even if they were somehow at equal footing, Vegeta would go down anyway, because Frieza would just go into space and take out the entire planet.
what.
People use "SSJ is the big multiplier..." As an argument for this? Really? the argument I've heard of is that Vegeta, after getting his chest blown open by krillin, and then having it healed by dende, had received enough of a power boost to reach a power level of 2M-2.5M (latter if you high ball it or whatever), which would still put him below Goku in base, but on par if not slightly above freeza in SSJ, he could probably win the fight due to better BIQ, his hatred for freeza might also just override any ego he feels due to the nature of SSJ as a transformation.
One thing I would like to mention is how Super Saiyan had to be adjusted as a x50 multiplier because it was a narrative necessity for Goku to even win that fight.
We can only make the assumption that it is realistic for Vegeta to lose against Frieza because the story was already written and we have the hindsight to reach to the conclusion in the first place.
The fight could have gone differently for Vegeta, the power up could have been even higher due to the narrative.
Yes, if we only look at the numbers alone, there is no chance, but considering the narrative making a slight change can make all the difference when looking at the what-if.
I think it's most likely that Vegeta would win, Namek saga Vegeta was very ruthless and while yes he let his pride get to his head thinking he was a super saiyan already, and Frieza was holding back. I think it's important to note in the android saga not only was Vegeta a Super Saiyan but he was stronger than sick Goku and everyone else. That really played into his ego. I dunno if that would happen here after being beaten up and nearly killed multiple times in the same couple days.
Reasonably though, Vegeta shouldn't be absurdly weaker than base Goku-he is weaker, but sensing 3rd form's power and "knowing" he'd surpass it by healing should put him in the ~2 million range at least. Stack Super Saiyan and he'd confidently overpower 50-75% Frieza and Frieza takes a good bit of time to use his full strength.
If Frieza does go all out though he will outclass Vegeta in power, speed and especially durability. Frieza is a TANK. Vegeta would die. Sucks to suck.
Clicked for the thumbnail😂
From what i remember dbz forums already said vegeta's base power level was too low for the 50x multiplier to score him a win. People seriously have a problem with no googling shit
Vegeta would transform, do the thumb thing and immediately throw the game
Thumb?
@@QaamansLand the cursed dragonball thumb pose, everytime someone points at themselves with their thumb and gloats or brags they proceed to get creamed
@@QaamansLand The cursed DBZ thumb pose, sorry I did reply earlier but youtube ate it
Can you give the biggest example so I can go back and check?
@@QaamansLand First that comes to mind for me is Super Vegeta squaring up to Perfect Cell, but he also did it when squaring up to final form Frieza on Namek and again against Goku Black in DBS, other characters have done it too, but Vegeta is the meme man for it
Meh, if we go by the manga, then Vegeta can outlast Frieza, they’re near equals, so i can’t for the life of me expect Frieza to quickly dispatch him.
I definitely agree with the outcome in this video. As much as I like Vegeta, he definitely wouldn’t have won.
Yknow, this reminds me of an older video you did on a similar topic! Got some super nostalgia right here, and got to watch this before work too, so that’s a plus! Thanks, Qaaman! :)
Favorite DB UA-camr hands down
If he outlast freiza, it's a wrap.
@@tysonpeterson9552"If he literally does something impossible, he wins the fight."
i didnt even know the filler of gohan fighting frieza in his final form even existed, that's insane
Well they also make it clear in the show that while Goku was seemingly struggling against frieza as a super saiyan, Goku was holding back against frieza in the fight and allowing frieza to give him some of the blows he received. There are many instances where Goku could have ended frieza in the fight but Goku didnt want to kill frieza. He only wanted to hurt Frieza’s pride hence dragging out the fight making frieza believe that he could take on Goku but ultimately showing frieza that he was no match for him all along.
I feel like one thing that might change things is Goku tells the others to run, but if Vegeta got Super Saiyan, he probly wouldn't have, and may even like the others being there to watch.
That being the case, if Vegeta started losing, the others would probly step in to try and help, and even if they were too weak to do damage, they could at least be a distraction, which may give Vegeta enough time to outlast Frieza and end up becoming victorious. That's if the others there didn't leave though.
Of course Goku might've stayed still, and I think even if it was just him, I think he'd have enough power to at least be a distraction or annoyance to Frieza, if I'm not mistaken, he does know solar flare at that point in time I believe?
My theory is that 100% Frieza started out at 200 million and gradually dropped his powerlevel and stamina to about 100 million, explaining why Super Saiyan Goku at 150 million was initially losing and struggling ...
People forget there was that tremendous attack Frieza made. The one where Frieza powered right through Goku's blast and pile drove Goku into the planet. I think that attack made it clear that Frieza was capable of mustering greater feats of strength even at this late stage in the fight. Freiza was held back by his willingness to toy with everyone, something that always plays to the strengths of the Saiyans. Also. by his lack of battle experience leading him to burn out faster.
@@Uncle_Fred yes, the 70% blast
That was only in the anime. In the manga, the moment Goku went SSJ, he clearly showed his superiority over Freeza. Plus, SSJ Goku completely dominates the fight as soon as everyone else leave Namek.
@@Neathyr I disagree, the manga is not THAT different, I'm reading it right now, yes thete's SOME difference but it's still nowhere near what Future Trunks did to Frieza, it's still a battle for Goku
I have one thing to add, Vegeta was, and always has been, a strategic fighter. When you look at Frieza’s end on Namek, it was because he got too caught up in his own tactics and cut himself in half. While Goku has elements of strategy in his fight with Frieza, most exemplified by his attack from under water when he realized frieza can't sense his ki, he doesn't really fight with any kind of strategy as a super saiyan. I think Vegeta, even when he's in the heat of battle, always fights with some tactic in mind. If he had a equal or near equal power level to frieza, I think his battle experience and strategic mind would probably give Frieza a run for his money. Especially since frieza would probably be even more enraged at seeing Vegeta reach his level than he was with Goku, someone he literally didn't know, which I think would cause him to make more mistakes like cutting himself in half.
I think people also forget that Frieza's biology gives him a major advantage. As we see, Frieza loses half his body and even half his head and then is stranded in space for an extended period of time and still survives long enough to be retrieved by Cold. Frieza and his race seem to be incredibly durable so even if Vegeta was at or close to Frieza's power level, Frieza would probably still win simply because of durability and resilience to attacks.
I remember a theory back in the day that only a super saiyin could kill frieza, like even if another character was stronger than him, they couldn't beat him unless they were super saiyan. What a weird time
Do you really think Vegeta would have killed Frieza without letting him reach 100%? Let's not forget, Vegeta was the one who told him to transform in the first place. Added to this, becoming a Super Saiyan would have totally went to his head to the point where he'd think no one could ever best him. We see this crop up in the Cell saga where he allows him to reach his perfect form out of overconfidence in his abilities. It's the saiyan way.
I added this comment before finishing the video btw. Must've been my saiyan pride, haha. Also I feel the power level police are misguided a bit and I think power levels lost any form of reason at around the start of the Frieza fight. Goku's zenkai boost from 90k to 3 million is a bit ridiculous. That would mean he became 33 and 1/3 times stronger from one near-death zenkai. For reference Vegeta went from 18k to 24k from his first zenkai in the arc. I always thought the 300k - 15 million (Goku) argument made way more sense until the official data was released. No wonder they did away with power levels!
@keesutherat1952 It's a bit different in scenario. Vegeta absolutely hates Frieza on a personal level and would be less willing to let him do anything other that squirm and beg for his life. I think even in the event of Frieza going 100% Vegeta could feed the fear Frieza had of a Super Saiyan the same way he bluffed Gero into running away.
With Cell it's less personal and more of a measuring stick of how strong he had become. In the Cell saga Vegeta isn't being persued and isn't resorting to hit and run tactics like he was back on Namek.
@Zikk0_o While I agree that Vegeta hates Frieza on a personal level, I still have to disagree. Vegeta was so confident that he allowed Frieza to transform from form 1 - 2. He, Killin and Gohan were doomed until Piccolo showed up. I'm not sure what you mean about bluffing Gero. Gero fled because he knew he had no chance of winning and if he was destroyed at that point, there would be nobody to activate 17 and 18.
Ok, I see what you mean by bluffing him now. I had forgotten the detail about him being drained after 19 and losing super saiyan. Probably because of how easily he dispatched him.
@@keesutherat1952 Vegeta knew that Frieza was toying with them in his suppressed state so there really wasn't any point in wasting time.
Whether he knew it or not, Vegeta goading Frieza into transforming is what ultimately led to Frieza's stamina burning quicker. Frieza states that he suppresses his true form because he can't quite control it. By transforming early against Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin, Frieza had already begun draining his stamina before even fighting Goku. Going 100% later against SSJ Goku just made things much worse for himself.
I feel you are all forgetting Freiza also tricked Goku and it all worked out
One thing about vegita that confuses me is that he is super duper strong in his base form compared to goku, which uses loads of kaioken boosts to multiply his: yet in most of his fights vegita just doesn't last in any of his fights goku's kaioken is suposed to drain him really quickly, yet he seems to have way more endurance than vegita ever did (as far as i know)
when you have to fill your essay to meet the assigned word count ass video
But hears what your forgetting goku was holding back and vegeta has more battle experience
Goku surely wasn't still at 3 million after getting hammered by Frieza for awhile and doing the spirit bomb. So maybe they were both around 120million
Frieza was in no way at 120,000,000 at that point, either.
The thing here is, we don’t know Vegeta’s post-Dende Battle Power, but the important thing is, it’s way the hell less than Goku’s. Goku was able to handle what Frieza was giving Vegeta at 3 mil, Vegeta’s not even gonna be breaking 2.
Why’s this important? Because SSJ is an amplifier, and Frieza’s full power is 120 mil.
Even if he’d gone SSJ, Vegeta’s getting pasted across Namek.
It's really not. Goku already had a X10 amp before, so the SSJ multiplier is effectively only 5 times.
@@Oznerock My guy, Kaioken is not part of SSJ.
Goku was at 3 Mil when he came out to fight Frieza, he didn't get any buffs during the fight. He topped off at 20x output via Kaioken, then resorted to the Spirit Bomb when that wasn't enough.
Then he went SSJ and jumped to 150 Mil to beat Frieza's 120.
I believe both Goku and Frieza were weakening significantly as the battle went on. This was a major plot point in the Cell Saga, that maintaining the Super Saiyan transformation is incredibly draining.
The difference is that Goku was *already* stronger than Frieza when the fight started, so Frieza was weakening faster as he took more and more damage.
In other words, it's very likely that even if Super Saiyan Vegeta was the same power level as 100% Frieza, *Frieza* would be the one outlasting *him.*
Even vegetas first major battle on earth, his ego is huge. “You’re just a low class warrior, how could he be so powerful “ and so on and so forth.
It's so simple it just needs a few sentences to be explained. Vegeta loses against opponents comparable in power, who actually know him. Any opponent who does not know Vegeta's personality, is usually f*cked.
I don't think vegeta could beat frieza fast enough to not be blown up by namek also as RoF showed us when vegeta inevitably stops to mock frieza, frieza would just blow up the planet.
Yeah, pretty much whatever way you want to slice it. It doesn't look good for Vegeta.
I never understood who power levels just go up so fast, like 1 day to a week of like push-ups, you could easily x2 your power it felt like lol
Here is an argument based on what is shown ratter than in fan hyped up numbers.
1 SS is a multiplier not a base line this is a fact
2 SS vegeta after 3 years of training was equal if not a little stronger than SS Trunks, the same Trunks that speed run/sucker punched mecha frieza yes, but also the one whose attacks were reflected by goku with literally one finger
Using this we could make the educated guess that base namek Vegeta was way weaker than base namek Goku, as was explicitly shown time after time in the later parts of the namek saga so no, Vegeta would not have won against Frieza
"The person who´d win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win!" Stan Lee 2013
No shit Sherlock
5:55 i mean, super vegeta vs cell…
Short story of how it would go against freiza vs ssj vegeta
"I know your playing me, but your right"
Proceed to let frieza go full power
6:17 - Let's be honest here, there's no way in hell Vegeta would have turned down the opportunity to fight Frieza at 100%. Giving the villain the chance to reach maximum power is one of his most notoriously bad habits throughout the entirety of Dragon Ball Z. His line of reasoning for allowing Frieza to go full power would probably have been similar to Goku's, in that he wanted to humiliate his opponent and show that even at his strongest, he still couldn't defeat him. Only for it to of course backfire on him due to how arrogant Vegeta is.
You forgot that power levels dont mean much if the character is not at 100 percent. Goku took a really bad beating in the frieza battle before going super saiyan. Frieza did to which I guess helped level out the playing field making near equal in power.
If vegeta had went to super saiyan at the start of the fight(assuming his pl was 2,400,000) without taking damage, then his fight with full power frieza would have been similar than the one with goku, because goku and vegeta have more skill than frieza.
I’m glad that it was Goku who turned SS first 😊
I get that in the Cell Saga, Vegeta let Cell absorb 18 for a better flight, but I don't think he would have done that here.
1) Vegeta was far more ruthless at this time. He was killing defenseless knocked out Ginyu Force members, regularly seeking out and slaughtering other weak enemies, etc.
2) When Vegeta let Cell power up, it was because he was wiping the floor with Semi perfect Cell. Freeza still would have been a challenge, so Vegeta would have been less likely to let him power up.
The 50x multiplier is what a fully trained potential for super saiyan 1 will deliver. That is, what Goku and Gohan and maybe what Vegeta and Trunks were able to crank out of Super Saiyan 1 during the Cell Game. Toriyama viewed the initial multiplier as being "more like ten". This admittedly doesn't make a lot of sense, as Goku was already using 10x Kaio-ken, (and even 20x momentarily). One factor was that Goku was not only deadly enraged, but coldly committed, not expecting to even survive the planet blowing up, like a suicide fighter, yet still wanted to crush 100% Frieza. This gave him a certain edge. Also, of course, "more like ten" doesn't mean straight up ten. The multiplier might have been 15x for example; also, super saiyan isn't as exhausting and damaging as Kaio-ken can be.
Personally, I've wondered if Goku slipped a basic Kaio-ken in to defeat 100% Frieza? I know the text never said so, but it also never said he was using Kaio-ken at all until King Kai said he was.
Goku wasn't using kaioken because, if he was we as a audience would know and the "invisible kaioken" was basically an out of order telling because when King Kai say: "But he's already using" showing Goku using it's to imply that he was using all time just to give a fake out surprise
The argument that Namek Vegeta would know not to let Frieza power up kind of falls apart when you remember it was Vegeta who goaded Frieza into his second form to begin with.
I was waiting for the crab.
I got to see the crab.
Way I see it, Vegeta goes SSJ during his fight and forces Frieza into his 100% Form, Vegeta dies in his cockiness against 100%, and forces Goku into SSJ aswell leading to how the original turned out with Frieza eventually turning into Mecha after he is rescued and Vegeta revived.
5:17 How is this "clearly" when we know for certain that friezas form would start diminishing his enegy in Vegeta's favor.
Keep watching...
@@QaamansLand Video was finish and you still never addressed that...
I said Vegeta could outlast him.
I should have added this but you also have to consider namek is gonna blow up.
I don't see how Vegeta couldn't beat Frieza. He was sitting at or just over 2 mill; not much weaker than Goku in the grand scheme.
Once Frieza goes 100%, he'd have the advantage for a little while but Vegeta was shown in every fight he had up till the showdown with Frieza that he can take a beating; he has the endurance to outlast Frieza till the tyrant tires out. After Frieza starts running cold, Vegeta could easily kill him. It's just a matter of whether he'd prolong Frieza's suffering by torturing him and/or if Frieza can somehow manage to land a sneak attack like he tried to do with Goku.
Do you think Vegeta would let him?
if we go based of your assumption of 2 mil, with the 50x multiplier frieza at full power would win the fight
@@JC2007.Frieza can't hold full power long enough to beat Vegeta though
@JC2007. If you just take the numbers at face value then yeah but as I explained, it's deeper than that.
Frieza couldn't maintain his full power for very long before his stamina and power level started dropping like a stone. Vegeta was shown to be able to withstand punishment and he's actually more or less on Frieza's level with SSJ.
Frieza may have the edge for a brief window but I don't see him killing Vegeta in that time frame. Vegeta will just keeping bouncing back until Frieza inevitably peters out like he did with Goku. When that happens, Frieza is toast.
@@danielsilva9502He doesn't though, all he has to do, is start the namek explosion sequence and he wins, goku, with a different of 30M barely managed to escape namek, vegeta is weaker than frieza so it will make it far worse
7:28 that looks 🔥
What Vegeta didn't understand was that Super Saiyan is NOT a birthright, its from hard hork and it comes in need, not from desire, he underestimated Goku due to him being seen as a low class Saiyan, just because you're an elite, doesn't make you strong
Vegeta as a character is set up to curbstomp most opponents but always lose when it matters most [Goku, Frieza, 18, Cell, etc.]
Then how did super Saiyan trunks so easily defeat frizea his father and his army with no sparring partner or no one to help him train after Gohan’s death
Going by scaling Vegeta surpasses Third form Frieza and was able to see Friezas attacks when no one else could. Going by pure statements on Friezas 50%, Vegeta beats him. Albeit with significant difficulty.
Remember in the manga the fight was far more in Gokus favor.
Vegeta’s power level (not canon but it’s assumed) is 2,000,000. Super Saiyan is only a 50 times boost so that’s only a 100,000,000. Frieza 100% is 120,000,000. Vegeta gets curbed stomped UNLESS he almost gets killed and then gets healed again then transforms. Otherwise I don’t see him winning.
@@AlmightyKing143
No. He was clearly far above Piccolo who was dominating Friezas second form at over a million. It was then stated atleast on TWO different instances that Frieza was still holding power back IN HIS SECOND FORM after transforming with a stated over a million power level. He then transformed twice since then and Vegeta was still confident he can beat him after his Zenkai from Krillin.
Vegeta isn't rushing final form Frieza when he's still weaker than the form before it.
Vegeta is around 2.4 million
Goku at 3 million. Piccolo at 1.75m and Frieza FP at 120m.
@CZPC Frizea was at less than 2% of his full power when he beat down Vegeta says so himself
Butoden Vegeta theme as the OST in the background, genius.
Goku didn't "Stuggle" against 100% Freeza. He did what he always does, allows his opponent to hit him with everything they have, before giving it back to them. Goku's power was always higher in the anime, even before the stamina issue set it
if the road map was prepared for that it would work
Goku never really struggled imo.. he could have had finished Frieza with one big kamehameha if he wanted to. But that never happens in dbz for obvious reasons.
Goku wanted to humiliate Frieza.
I said this already. Dragon Vall, like most stories was originaly written where a ceiling existed for most characters. Frieza was so powerful, that the only way to beat him was to get past that ceiling and become a Super Saiyan.
You can mention power levels and mathematics you know darn wrll Toriyama does not care about. Super Saiyan was depicted as the ultimate form. Which Frieza feared. Any warrior that achieved Super Saiyan would of beaten Frieza.
When Androids and Cell arrived, the plot narrative was that "not even a Super Saiyan is enough." A regular Super Saiyan could not defeat new foes.
Later stories added power creep and no ceilings existed. Its the same problem where Battle of Gods indicated the only way to face Beerus is to become Super Saiyan God because no training could reach that level. Power creep made that plotline irrelevant later on. There is no "explanation."
But back on Namek Saga, a Super Saiyan would of beaten Frieza. Frieza's emphasized fear of that legend was made clear for a reason. Obviously in Namek Saga only a person like Goku could be Super Saiyan. Later on, everyone could