The Consequences Of Life Without God
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2017
- Denis Normark fails to give a good argument as to why in his worldview if Stalin decided that the meaning of his life is to kill whoever gets in his way it would not be wrong.
Watch the entire debate here: • Does God Exist? (Fran...
Well said Frank Turek..."you don't judge it by it's abuse...you judge it by it's proper use.". Don't judge Christianity for how it has been wrongfully used and abused...judge it for what it actually stands for, what the Gospel message actually is, what the Bible actually says within it's context, and it's appropriate application today. If people's action are not aligned to the religion they claim, it is NOT the fault of the religion, indeed it is the fault of that person who misrepresents the religion.
nickj14711 you forgot the good parts that overrule the uncomfortable subject matter you cherry picked from the Bible. Just because the Bible doesn't conform to your 21st century worldview doesn't mean you disregard the whole message and purpose of it
Thats too intelligent for ignorant people to understand mate.
nickj14711 if somebody got the turd out and cleaned the pool there's no problem I was in the military I swam in worst waters.
nickj14711 I say this with a lot of respect and a passion, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about, you should definitely scrutinize the Bible and take it with context than just spelling verses with no basis and no proper context. If you only realize how far you are from the actual true meaning of thise elements you stated you would not be commenting on them.
Kevin Bean Lots of truth here, but just as it is written the Word do not change it will never change because it is perfect. Times will change God will never change and whatever he has written as well will never change
Life sucks without him😢 I been down that road and it's a sad terrifying lonely road. But I am beyond thankful that even through my toughest moments and my moments of rebellion God has always and never left me. He's a good Lord and I shall serve him for the rest of my days. God bless you brothers and sisters
He helps you out but millions he is not. You need look at the whole pictures.Jesus is more punishing than bastardy god. He believed and liked the idea of eternal punishment or never spoke out against it. His criteria for getting into heaven is contemptible, disgusting - believe in me, that’s all it takes. I believe what is written about Jesus was written long after he died and isn't representational of what the man did say; most of the bible is bs with bad deeds and dogma (well the Old Testament is really bad there).No Jesus didn't want to just beat people up, he wanted those who didn't believe in the Son to there is no proof or near-proof, there is great doubt. Jesus is but the would-be eternal tormentor of mostly nice or OK people who won't find salvation. Some bad behavior comes from reading the bible. The bad dogma and deeds of the bible plus advanced the reasoning of today, advanced logic, knowledge of science all will contribute to the downfall of religion with its stranglehold on the more naive.
Religion makes a virtue out of faith. Trust and obey for there’s no other way to be happy in Jesus.
As science eats away at territory once held by religion, traditional religious beliefs require greater and greater mental defenses against threatening information. To stay strong, religion trains believers to practice self-deception, shut out contradictory evidence, and trust authorities rather than their own capacity to think.
A close reading of the Old Testament is filled with horrendous lessons on how to treat people. A god that kills almost everyone on Earth in a flood: that’s pretty crazy. A god that commands Joshua to murder all the women and children except for the young girls, who can be taken as sex slaves: That’s horrible though tempting. The 10 commandments tell you that working on Saturday is a sin and the first four commandments are vanity plates for god. God eventually goes into great detail about how to deal with cattle thieves, isolating women on their period, and which fabrics to wear at the same time; but nowhere in those ten commandments, or in the six hundred and three that come after it, does it say “Don’t abuse children,” or “Don’t enslave people,” or “Don’t rape.”
The Bible was written by human beings at a time when stealing a person’s livestock was a crime punishable by death, but raping a young girl was easily remedied by following it up with a marriage proposal. If the girl married someone other than her rapist however, and was found to not be a virgin, she would be executed. There is nothing remotely moral about any of this. The Abrahamic tribes who wrote the Old Testament simply came up with a set of laws that favored those already in power, and then claimed those laws were dictated by god and that questioning them was punishable by death. Children who talk back to parents can be stoned and killed by parents or a non-virgin on her wedding night should be stoned and killed by her new non-virgin husband.
In the New Testament, you can pick and choose to find verses that sound nice, but who gets to decide which verses teach the moral lessons? When Paul says that a master should treat his slave well, why didn’t he just condemn slavery? Surely the “golden rule” would require that. When Paul says, “A woman should be quiet in church and not speak. She should learn from her husband.” is that a good moral model? When Jesus says, “If you don’t love me more than your own family, you don’t deserve heaven.”
An imaginary god probably does reduce crimes (though non-believers are as moral as believers according to scientific studies and seem to commit less crimes according to some studies - they do spend less time in prison and in fact are underrepresented in prison).
Cancers kill millions and there are tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, chronic pain, acne, mental illness (found on this site in spades), mosquitoes that kill 2 million a year, God killed drown all but 8 Human Beings and a boat-load of animals, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God killed Lot's wife, mother of 2 virgins, by turning her into a pillar of salt, God killed Onan who refused to knock-up his sister-in-law. God killed by hail every man that was outdoors, God claimed to make the dumb or deaf, the seeing or blind - why were they this way to behind with? Oh Adam and Eve's original sin. I forgot
The other guy looks soooo stressed 😂
Gerelis Feliz Lol Doesn’t he? 💀
He is lol
Being caught in lies publicly is stressful.
🤣
Exactly lol
You dont judge it by abuse, you judge it by proper use.
And the proper use is abuse.
@@enzoarayamorales7220 what do you mean by this? Back up your claim
"The consequences of life without God"
The dilemma of the atheist: If the end result is exactly the same no matter what you do then what you do doesn't matter.
And as an athiest that does not matter to me in the slightest, I'm more interested in the journey and how I get to that final destination of oblivion and quite frankly I'd rather just enjoy and appreciate this finite life for what it is.
You are spot on
I don't believe what you do doesn't matter. So you're flat wrong.
@@TheAginG420
Tell me that after you're dead...
@@TheAginG420 1 million years passes by, the fact that you are a murderer or the nicest person in your community when you are alive doesn't matter the slightest.
Blaming an ideology for the actions of those not following its precepts is logically incoherent.
Very true.
Yes. Even farther... I don't affirm Jesus's view because it does things I prefer... I affirm it because of prior, valid lines of reasoning.
“Christianity is not a humanistic worldview or religion because it believes God is more important than humans.”
This is because the Bible believes in a God, and if a God that created humans exists, He IS more important.
Not only that but Christianity says God came down and took HUMAN form, let himself get killed by humans, and died for our human sake. You can’t give humanity more meaning and value than that.
Frank is a genius, he owned that guy.
Frank is a moron
The point is Frank is a moron
Kevin Zhou when you cant debate it so you just curse him 😂😂
MrChiangching when you cant debate him so you curse him 😂😂
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Of course God is above all, but if we fail to love our fellow brethren, we have failed to love God.
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Yes, we must also love our enemies. The inquisition was wrong, period.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
So, if you do good to all men, we will have done good to God. God bless you and thank you for reading!
"but if we fail to love our fellow brethren, we have failed to love God."
Then Jesus messes it all up by saying " “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine.".
C Nault No, what he means is that if we are consumed by hate and don’t love our family and friends then we fail to recognize love and thus fail to recognize God who is love, and in the second scripture you selected means that if your willing to give up your relationship with God because your family/ loved ones see it as “fake” or “weird” (or a multitude of reason) and are to worried about what others think of you serving Christ, then you are not worthy, many people think the Bible contradicts itself but it’s really us who don’t fully understand Gods Living Holy Word. Hope this helps even if it’s 4 months old lol, God bless and much love!💪🏽❤️
life without god no matter how seemingly valuable leads to emptiness
And how does god possibly give your life meaning?
@@k.5144 Because without god there is no grand meaning or purpose in life. If you really think about it if there is no god there is no higher standard than your own standard. Because then the standard becomes an opinion. So like said in the video if there is no god why should I not do whatever I want to get what I want?
@@k.5144 And I do not mean to be judgemental but I am wondering why you do not believe>
@@lukehillland if by the meaning god gives your life, you mean you are working towards entering heaven sure it gives your life meaning. But not ultimate meaning, because once your in heaven, is heaven itself not meaningless without an after after life? If we think of an astronaut on a meteor flying through space, and he can’t get off, and this astronaut happens to be immortal, he will be on that meteor forever, would you save his life is meaningless? If we then say the astronaut accepts Christ in his heart, and he is filled with the Holy Spirit, and he worships god. Is his eternity on the meteor all of a sudden meaningful?
@@k.5144 Let me re-respond to your question. God gives me meaning. I live to worship the lord. And through him I am more loving to others as well. He gives me purpose. And "working towards heaven" is not really a thing in Christianity. In Christianity love is unconditional. I have already been forgiven of my sins so there really is no "working". My purpose is my relationship with god.
And heaven is not meaningless because it really is the real life. As I like to say earth is the appetizer and heaven is the meal. The never-ending meal of course. Haha.
This seems to be kind of a trick question because nobody lives in this realm forever. But, yes I would say his life is meaningful.
Wow what a cop out. "They weren't humanist, Im a humanist" what's the difference? You can't justify that all human lives matter with a secular humanist atheistic worldview. This guy is an ignoramus. Way to go Frank Turek!
what the hell do you think humanism is? Next you’ll be saying you can’t justify greed with Libertarianism.
Know what secular humanism means. More lives matter to secular humanists more than any religion.
Humanism is just a fancy word for Individualism. "I do things for the good of mankind" is what humanism claims, but in reality people will only do so if at first it is convenient for them. The good of mankind is always defined differently and even in a contradicting way by humanists. Humanists claim that reciprocity is the basis of morality, but in fact reciprocity is the basic element of any social creature, and is not the foundation of morality, because a truly moral person does the right thing not because he expects any kind of rewards from it but only because it IS the right thing. If you only do good things because you expect good things in return, that is not morality, because monkeys do the same thing for survival. But if you do good things to those who do bad things to you, that is morality, but that goes against the claim of reciprocity.
Humanism doesn’t work. God is all we need to love a good life
Goose and gander; if one says "you cannot judge my morality because Stalin claims to follow it," then you cannot judge another by the exact same argument, "I judge your morality because X claims he shares your morality."
Doctrine vs. interpreter. If I mistranslated a document it does not follow that the original document is at fault.
It cracks me up how the moderator jumps in and is like, "Dennis, I'm sure you're not a proponent of Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin." As if that's what Frank was saying.
I'm sure the atheist guy had brought up the mis-informed idea that Hitler was a christian, and the Christian guy just brought up the other atheist dictators.
Yeah thats how the so called fair moderator helps the athiest like in court a lawer is leading the witnesd
Listen to this video carefully. That's the Holy Spirit speaking through Frank Turek!
LOL..
There are two Holy Spirits. The evil holy spirit is a cold and wet fart. The good holy spiirit is a warm dry fart.
The holy spirit? You need to stop taking LSD.
@@tonymitchell8563
Spirit = wind, god spirits = wind during growing season (summer) and evil spirit = wind during cold, non food productive season (winter).
@@harveywabbit9541 You have made assertions about god and the wind. Now it's time to give your proof, otherwise they are baseless assertions. I can say the winds are intergallactic space pixies farting. Now why should people believe god over that? Without supportingnp evidence for your assertion it is as believable as my assertion.
Lol the Rockwall in the background
Even the atheists have to admit the dude's got a point here, or at least that's what i think, but what do i know of the thoughts of an atheist , i'm a Christian myself
nickj14711 Those men didn't fear God due to their "atheism". they had no fear of God they decided they could do whatever they wanted because they believed there would be no consequences because they were at the highest levels of authority.
Thank you red pill just what i would have said, fortunately we gotta sleep sometime
but that is beside the point my young atheist friend did you not watch the clip? it doesn't matter what an organization does, but what the faith does when applied CORRECTLY. True Christianity teaches the there is no black or white or yellow or brown, only human. and it teaches that all people were created in the image of God, and therefore life has value. True Christianity teaches that if someone is not hurting you there is no reason to be violent, and if someones down on there luck to help them get back on their feet again, but you don't care about truth you just want to rid the world of Christianity, giving no thought to the consequent, tell me how many Muslim run charities do you see hmmm? Not many. that's because most of them if not all of them are run by, give a guess. Anyone? Oh that's right, Christians.
nickj14711 if those people had the fear(respect) for an authority above their own they would not have committed those those deeds. They had no fear(respect) for a higher authority because they were atheist. They were just just bringing atheism to its natural conclusion which is despair and chaos.
"if those people had the fear(respect) for an authority above their own they would not have committed those those deeds."
But theists have also committed terrible deeds. So I'm not getting your reasoning.
Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian. He refused to repent and trust in Christ. In fact, he for his last words, he chose the poem Invictus. The last stanza of which reads, “It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.”
None. There are no consequences of life without god. Boy that was hard.
I honestly feel bad and sad for all the people in the world who deny the existence of God and never want to have a real relationship with Him! They're going to have a serious reality check one day soon
I would like to have a relationship with God and I’ve tried but he hasn’t done much
@@fabianfollowerofchrist5299 Do you wanna talk about it?
@tim bonstell athiest and other non believers could say the same thing about you though. How did you come to the conclusion that what you think happens at the end is the right one?
So if Stalin had Jesus in his life nobody would have died.
If Stalin lived according to the teachings of Jesus Christ then no, he wouldn't have killed anybody.
Correct. TRUE DEVOTED born again christians dont commit mass murder
As Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit"
Right behind you Frank.
There was nothing wrong with the crusades! If it wasn't for the Crusades most Europeans would be wearing turbans right now!
The best video on youtube on the Crusades hands down is called:
What were the Crusades, and were they justified?
uploader is vaticancatholic
....
Atheism leaves the door wide open for subjective secular ideologies. Him making a distinction between humanism and Stalin/Mao ideals is wholly irrelevant. The moment you leave God's objective standard, picking out an ideal to strive for is no more subjective than picking out a favorite shirt to wear. Mao just liked a different colored shirt than Denis, and millions of people died. Unfortunately, Denis has no objective standard and therefore has no grounds to say whether it was objectively right or wrong.
What it is.. not what it's not.
I can't believe he said that Christianity is about God being more important than human beings when the whole bible as a narrative from beginning to end is about God keeping a promise to save the world and bring it back to the way he originally designed it! God had AMAZING patience with the people of the Old Testament and New
S H E M A F I E R C E He is more important..its just the facts. He glorifies himself by using us and he made us because he is good. And when we fallen, and can bring us back up from the grave. Why not gloryfy himself
Nick Jones because we actually read the book and not a crappy article written by a militant atheist.
Nick Jones When you put yourself as a judge. Due to your limited insight. How can you even begin to claim God is evil? The answer is that you can actually find God is good considering the fact God made you in his image and with the little taste of his persona, you think to judge God with your currupt persona in the name of the image of God in you. Many people in the bible have tried to judge God..God simply made statements saying you have no right at all to judge him..even when he is justified. I have done research and found God is good..despite the lies and slander the devil told you and that you eat up. God still holds a ground and is debateble. Remember.
Nick Jones Indoctrinated? I wasnt. I'm just a philosipher. Ive been one since before I came to Christ. I know how to think, unlike most people in these modern times. God calls man, sheep. Like sheep follow the alpha males to the slughter. So to do people follow antichrists to make God an enemy which is the only source of life. Satans big plan is to kill humans using their own free will. You fell for it. Hook, line, and sinker. Thus you fulfill the scriptures blue print of how wicked men think towards God. Athiest play right into Gods word we call the bible every day. So do debunkers and scientists.
Nick Jones God hates baby killing. When babies die, they go straight to heaven. Innocents is Satans pet peeve. Abortions are Satans pleasure. So Gods not evil. Humans are. The flood killed the Nephilim race, which was a race of giants that were hellishly evil. Along with all men, who were worse than every man in our prisons. So theres the answer you wanted..
My sources- The bible and the book of enoch.
"Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him."
Being humanist is not enough to be a good human. You can still hurt nature knowingly or unknowingly. The best way to be a good human is to be God conscious. It means conscious of consequences of all your actions. If I do this, do I hurt any one? If yes, how can I change it so I do as less damage as possible? Not just damage for humans, but for all environment. God conscious man does not care just about humans, but about everything and every one.
You literally described what a humanist is besides them not believing in a god, they believe in humanity. Most humanist think about the consequences of their actions. Through actions and through words, usually at a higher rate than "religious" people or people that claim to believe in God. That's why most humanist are also vegetarians and promote not only human rights but also animal and the nature rights.
I could say the same thing that despite being "god" conscious, you can still knowing or unknowingly cause harm to people or things.
It amazes me how we think we are the masters of the universe. WE ARE SINNERS plain and simple. Why do many of us reject the ''blue prints'' of the bible? Can we not see what are world has become and where it's going? Not talking about religion!!
God's words are not religion...men's words are religion.
It amazes me that you are are a not up on the bible. Did this ever bother you? Imaginary god Jesus never talked to his imaginary dad about changing the extremely harsh penalties for those who can't believe in god but live morally!! Lake of fire, eternal gnawing and gnashing of teeth, etc. Jews, Muslims, very intelligent people are born with a disadvantage ... and nothing can really make up for early inculcation.
Jesus didn't try to make it fairer or to do away with permanent hell considering the importance of biology and environment in every individual, which leaves limited free will. There is not of free choice, not a lot of free will. If one is schizo, you are less limited too. If people don’t realize the importance of biology and environment, they are ignorant and not logical or have no understanding of science or common science.
Imaginary god Jesus never talked to his imaginary dad about changing the extremely harsh penalties for those who can't believe in god but live morally!!
Jews, Muslims, very intelligent people are born with a disadvantage ...
Jesus didn't try to make it fairer or to do away with permanent hell considering the importance of biology and environment in every individual, which leaves limited free will. Of course this is true - biology and environment leaves little if any room for free will (which is different than free choice). If you are schizo, you are less limited too. If people don’t realize the importance of biology and environment, they are ignorant and not logical or have no understanding of science or common science. So due to my environment and heredity, I will never believe in hell or Jesus. I never believed in god either just a big bang creator. The God of the old and new “testicles” is malevolent. If he were a given he is responsible for billions of deaths by natural disaster including smallpox and the list is too long. Plus it's OK for parents to kill their children if they misbehave.
This is what I tell atheists: There are two possibilities, either God exists or He does not.
If God exists, because He is loving, He will not force himself into the presence of those who deny His existence and who do not want to be with Him for all eternity.
If He does not exist, then as a Christian, my quality of life has been enhanced by my faith. I tried to do my best to care for others, use whatever talents I believe God gave me, and in the trials of life, I had a sense of optimism and peace because I believed God was with me and He had not forsaken me.
It seems to me that being a Christian is advantageous no matter what, but being an atheist assumes the ultimate risk.
One problem with your view is that apparently, per most Christian's views, it isn't just those who deny "His" existence (ie atheists) who won't 'be with him for all eternity.'
In other discussions, theists...usually Christians from what I can tell, are quick to point out that atheist are a very small minority of the world's population. The numbers I've seen are that atheists make up much less than 7 percent of the world's population past and present. So the vast majority of people are theists of some variety and do not 'deny god's existence.' Yet, those same Christians usually imagine most of those other theists do not believe in the right god or don't worship the true God correctly so despite those people NOT denying God's existence, they will not be with him for all eternity. Most Christians claim that only those who believe on the Lord Jesus and do so properly will 'be with him for all eternity.' IOW atheists will make a small proportion of those missing out.
Even Jesus himself said that many will say Lord Lord (ie are NOT even denying Jesus' existence) did we not perform miracles on your name (ie were effective theists...people who got actual results and believed they were believing in the right god) but he will say depart from me I never knew you because you did not do the will of the Father. And given the multitude of Christian denominations, it is apparent that the will of the Father is well masked from even Christian's eyes. How do you know whether you are among those who are doing the will of the father or will be told to depart from me (Jesus)?
Jesus made clear that broad is the way that leads to destruction and many will find it but narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few will find it. That suggests that it isn't just those who deny his existence who won't be saved but it will be those who, for whatever reason, don't find that narrow path.Have you found the narrow path that few will find?
Couple that with Jesus outright admission to his disciples that even HE tried to mask the truth from those 'on the outside' by using parables lest those on the outside understand and repent. So it isn't JUST those of us who deny his existence who won't be saved, but those who are possibly misled by Jesus himself.
The Protestants branched off from the RCC because they truly believed the RCC were wrong in many of their practices...fatally wrong. The RCC were and are absolutely certain the Protestants are wrong...fatally wrong. The United Methodist Church recently split because one side thought homosexuals COULD be leaders in the church and the other side were certain that was not true...that God really disapproves of homosexuality and homosexuals should never be leaders. Even Baptists still apparently hold that women cannot lead men in churches. Other denominations happily invite women to hold whatever positions they qualify for. Are they ALL doing the will of the Father? Or are some engaged in fatal heresies?
"I tried to do my best to care for others, use whatever talents I believe God gave me, and in the trials of life, I had a sense of optimism and peace because I believed God was with me and He had not forsaken me."
But is your motive pure? Would you be conversely saying that IF there's no God, you have no motive to do those helpful things? I don't believe there is a god, but because I may stop/reduce a bit of suffering...even for a fleeting moment...I am happy to help others. I don't even expect to be rewarded in some idylic afterlife. In fact, if you are right, my rejection of [your] god means my efforts are futile for my personal benefit and God won't care that I help others because of my personal beliefs...because, as you say, I am 'denying' him.
And perhaps being an atheist is the ultimate risk. But that ignores a third possibility that Pascal ignored or was ignorant of. I am an atheist because I don't think there is a god...of any sort. It doesn't feel like rejecting anything except that which doesn't exist. I am not rejecting god any more than you are rejecting, say, alien abductions (or some other popular conspiracy theory you don't accept). You (well, I assume you do) simply do not think anyone has actually been abducted, or that there is a big foot, or aliens live among us or that aliens visited earth in the distant past. You don't feel like you're rejecting anything really. But, more so than not thinking any god exists, I am sure none of the gods worshiped in any religions I am aware are real gods. You're not actually rejecting Allah, or Ra, or Brahma, right? You simply don't think they exist because you think something else exists. And the followers of those gods didn't/don't feel like they are rejecting anything.
There may BE a real god and he may (or may not) actually care what or how I believe. If he does care what I believe, perhaps more than anything the real god doesn't want me worshiping a false god. He may prefer atheism (people who don't worship any god) than those who have been tricked into a false belief. He may ultimately be more offended with someone who would believe that he would actually ask people to have sacrificed animals to him because he 'likes the smell of burnt flesh in the morning'...or would come to earth as a man to get himself killed as a human sacrifice to himself for sins against himself before he could forgive those sins. He might be unhappy if I thought he can't forgive sins and redeem souls if someone just repents unless they also believe in a bloody primitive ritualistic human sacrifice. Perhaps I am better off reserving my belief until I'm sure than gloming on to one or another man-made religions which God hates and I don't think are true. So...perhaps I'm not at risk at all and...well...you are, despite how good it makes you feel to help others because you think god is going to reward you by inviting you to him for eternity. At least my motives are purely for others with no hope of reward/recognition.
@rizdekd3912 pascal's wager as once again but no I am not saying yeah there is no god certain but let's be real I basically subconsciously know I'll just be dead one day and yeah simple as OK
3:20 Jesus said love your enemies, bless those who curse you.
According to the bible he also said make no plans for tomorrow, god will take care of you.
if you have insurance or retirement savings or are saving for the education of your children, you are not obeying Jesus.
He also said do not pray in public. If you pray in public, you are not obeying Jesus.
@@cnault3244 You have completely misread scripture, go and look at the meaning, who he was talking to, and why.
@@dodibenabba1378 "You have completely misread scripture"
Nope. Here is exactly what it says:
Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.
Luke 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
It specifically says don't worry about tomorrow or about food or drink, god will take care of you.
"who he was talking to, and why."
Does that matter? If he is dispensing good advice, wouldn't it be good for whoever hears it? Is there a section of the Bible that takes what Jesus is alleged to have said & breaks it down as to which words are meant for which people?
@@cnault3244 Actually it makes perfect sense. Why worry about tomorrow when you still have today to live. For tomorrow is not promised. But yes we still plan tomorrow but know it is still God's will if we see our plans live out. God provides for his creation.
@@kermitdafrog8 So you are saying don't worry about tomorrow, but make plans for tomorrow?? You can't have it both ways.
In fact,not worrying about tomorrow would make sense if the world was about to come to it's end.
Jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. This was said almost 2000 years ago. Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27)
So, was Jesus lying, or was he just mistaken? Or is the Bible just wrong & Jesus never said these thing?
Where does he get his facts from how does he know how many people got killed during the Crusades also all these videos of his The Atheist is always cut off in the middle of when he's speaking it's easy to win a debate when the other guy doesn't get to talk
Because the are historical records of the deaths in the crusades. How else do we know history?
There's no way to know exactly how many people were killed during the Crusades
@@tonyrome5194Not the exact number per se, just the statistics
There were no statistics back then they wouldn't even have known what that word was
When you're killing and murdering people you don't usually keep records of it
how can i live without god when god has let me down for a long time.
well said WOW
Yes. Furthermore, whether or not one prefers certain products of a given worldview, the atheist cannot ground external morality.
I don’t truly know if God’s existence is a lie. It might actually be. However, there’s too much evidence as to not. But even if it is, His ways are the truth, and they lead to a better life.
For me it's the same but it's there's to much proof and common thinking and all that to where I can say I am atheist like how you say you believe in God but there is almost a thing where I am not saying 100 percent I am sure there is no god I don't believe in an afterlife rather so more then God I just think once I dead I am dead
I think the arguments of both are too shallow. Dig deeper and humanism's foundation is baseless from the start. Reason being: If humanism is true, then Stalin wasn't 'wrong', only disagreeable in the eyes and hearts of most. Whether they voiced it or not. But if humanism is true, a consensus, on what's ok and not ok, in large scales should be impossible to reach. Which is what ultimately put a stop to Stalin (a movement Normark is grateful for), but in the unbiased eyes of the implications of humanism, that's not right and wrong, as its adherents' words claim, but power plays of a subjective majority with smarter leadership, greater numbers and better resources. Because why should, or how can, such a thing (as the concept of right and wrong) even come to exist unless it was bestowed upon us? Like C.S. Lewis has said, 'We've come to 'a something' outside of ourselves, a standard if you will, that we expect the other to know about.' Humanism, by itself, can only be a sentiment its followers wish others to hold. But that doesn't make it true and it certainly doesn't give a reason as to why it should be believed. Much less be a position others ought to take because those considered 'good' have preached it. In short, humanism can't stand on its own by its own merits, it secretly borrows from a religious position (real or not) that we don't know better, and must be informed what to do by something above ourselves, for reasons we simply accept or rebel against for our own gain or pleasure.
brackonstudios i have a few questions about your comment.
How can humanism be true or false? Isn't that like saying capitalism or socialism or liking pizza is true or false?
What's the difference between wrong and disagreeable on an atheist world view?
How do the instructions of a higher power on what's right or wrong tell us what we ought to do?
+nickj14711 Planned Parenthood seems to be *Cough* "condoned" by philosophies like Post-Modernism and Atheism. Why aren't they ridiculed by Humanism? I follow this up with: Where do Christians condone the killing of children? Because last I checked, Christians were the ones trying to 'take away' the 'rights of a woman's body'.
+nickj14711 Don't answer your questions for me yourself. It not only causes yourself to appear pompous, it sets you up for numerous argumentative fallacies. That being said, I can tell you where atheism can and does support abortion, and the location of that might surprise you.
Pay attention nickj, this is called an evidence chain for an argument:
(*First*) After a minute of searching in Google, I found an article entitled: "Abortion opposition is a religious stance. Atheists must help fight for choice." by Adam Lee (located here): www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/05/abortion-opposition-religious-atheists-must-help-fight-for-choice
(*Second*) This article has an abstracted ending quote which says: "Non-believers have a long history of supporting choice, from the 1973 'Humanist Manifesto' which declares, “The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized”, to individual activists like Anne Nicol Gaylor who fought both for secularism and for choice. Now more than ever, that’s a legacy that atheists should be proud to uphold."
(*Third*) And going to the link, provided by the author, sends you to the American Humanist Association’s website. Whose tagline is “Good without a God” and whose mission is: “Advocating Progressive values and equality for Humanists, Atheists, and Freethinkers.” americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II
(*Fourth*) Unfortunately, the book is not available for direct reading, but another article of theirs is. One that’s titled: “American Humanists Stand in Solidarity with Women in Historic March on Washington”. americanhumanist.org/press-releases/american-humanists-stand-solidarity-women-historic-march-washington/ Which says, before concluding: “The American Humanist Association advocates for the ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment, and it opposes attempts by religious organizations to block women’s access to birth control and abortion.”
Thus, showing atheism (though certainly not to say all atheists) can and does support abortion.
+nickj14711 Frequent Ad Hominems, one clear account of fallacy fallacy, tu qouque, and multiple appeals to emotion on your part. But hey, what’s the point of counting? Anyway, yes, I did read your question which stated: “Lol please tell me where atheism says anything whatsoever about planned parenthood?” And I linked where all three can in fact be connected. But fair enough, I see your point. Although, since I worked hard towards finding and laying you out evidence, that you were unfortunately unsatisfied with (or didn’t even care to reference in your response), would you mind (if we are to play fair) finding a major atheistic website or organization that denounces Humanism’s support of abortion? No sense I be the only one to do all the heavy lifting.
In the meantime, hold on to these sources showing notable, atheistic support of abortion in general (which, in case you’re wondering, I’m presenting as Atheist sites, supporting the contribution of those in support of pro-choice. This is Not to say (before you accuse me) that all atheists support pro-choice, I know there are many that are Pro-Life like yourself out there.):
www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-family/atheist/#views-about-abortion
bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/answering-questions-for-pro-choicers (Author in agreement with Carl Sagan’s perspective and his position on low income areas options)
ffrf.org/legacy/books/AIAB/
ffrf.org/legacy/books/why_abortion/?t=ch3
www.atheistrev.com/2008/11/religions-toxic-effects-in-abortion.html
And now onto the questions I ‘ran’ from, excuse me if I have other people to debate and respond to. One main point to address is: Would you rather God exempt the babies, of wicked parents (bible’s words not mine) from the quick death of the flood (which would put them in heaven www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html )? Or would you rather them stay alive somehow on the earth and slowly die from not having parents to feed them? You seem fixated on the Flood and its implications, so here’s an overview of what Christians believe and have speculated on about what God did and why www.gotquestions.org/flood-just.html And since these things are openly discussed in Christian communities, and the religion hasn’t reformed or disbanded over it, there must be a satisfactory answer for the matter in their minds. Not saying that you’ll find that there, but I pray you do and get some peace from reading the points the article makes. And why not include another one? There’s plenty out there like it: www.futureandahope.net/noah_ark.php
Lastly, if this is to continue, I’d like some confirmation that you’ve at least looked over what I’ve found for you, and that you not just respond with more poorly structured drivel. Because it’s no sweat off my back to walk away from a one sided, source-less shouting match.
+brackonstudios Well said. Not only that but if its based on majority rule then minorities ie 49% dont have rights because only the whole/majority does... which means individuals dont have rights, only majority consensus does, which allows a stalin to justify wiping them out as they have no inalienable value rights or worth to begin with. A republic where individuals are sovereign and have intrinsic inalienable rights flows from the bible and theism democracy where the collective whole rules and individuals have no rights flows from atheism or humanism.
Timothy McVeigh wasn't a Christian.
Oh it's because they were not scientists, eh? Then explain Oppenheimer.
Why do we do what we do? Only two possible answers. 1) our goal in life is to get good feelings or 2) Our goal in life is to be a part of God's plan. Atheists, humanists, agnostics, non theists, etc fit into the first one.
You left out 3) now since there is an equal amount of evidence for every god ever imagined, which god am I going to choose to believe in
@@cnault3244 Why would you want to believe in God?
@@matthewtenney2898 I don't. But if someone was to clearly define their god without employing logical fallacies and unproven claims ( that would be a first)and then presented evidence that proves their clearly defined god exists,it wold be foolish to not believe the god exists.
Doesn't mean I would worship the go though.
@@cnault3244 Hi, what you are calling a belief, I would call an opinion. Beliefs are assumed truths that we use (and must use) every day to live our lives as we choose. For example, I assume as true that I will be alive tomorrow. I can't prove it but if I didn't assume it, I couldn't make plans for tomorrow. Our beliefs are formed in our unconscious minds, like the belief that I will be alive tomorrow.
Our ultimate goal is our happiness and we're working on a plan to get there. Our beliefs are formed in our unconscious minds to support the plan.
If our plan to achieve our happiness does not include God, then we will unconsciously form beliefs that support a rejection of God.
The Christian idea is that God is worth seeking.
@@matthewtenney2898 "Beliefs are assumed truths that we use (and must use) every day to live our lives as we choose. For example, I assume as true that I will be alive tomorrow."
A difference there is that we both know what you mean when you say day, life, alive, and tomorrow.
But when you say "The Christian idea is that God is worth seeking.", the fact is the people who believe a god exists are unable to clearly define what they mean by the word god...when they attempt to define go ,they use vague terms and logical fallacies.
The consequences of life without god are about the same as life without unicorns. Fantasists will believe whatever they want to believe and there is nothing you can do about it.
An existence with out god and and existence with out a unicorn are very very different.
A god that can't be observed is no different to a god that doesn't exist.
simon burns what do you mean by observed?
NOOBKILLER052 "detect (something) in the course of a scientific study"
simon burns so are you saying since science can not prove the existence of god, then he doesn't exist?
If Stalin et al had killed in the name of atheism you might have a point, however unlike the religious murderers of history, none of the atheistic mass murderers committed their atrocities demanding the acceptance of atheism as a reprieve........atheism was not their motivation. Think, people, don't just accept because it sounds good.
Fair enough
But even if people kill in the name of God...that isn't an argument against God's Existance.
@@virginnation8018 I don’t argue there is no god, only there is not good evidence for one......or two...or three.
@@virginnation8018 And are people using the brutality of a given religion as an argument against God's existence? I agree they shouldn't.
But it points to a problem that I think some gloss over. IE that the standard bearers of Christianity used that brutality to promote Christianity and the reason Christianity dominates in the west might actually be due to those practices. Their brutal ways would stifle alternative thought and keep folks from discussing anything other than what conformed to the churches doctrine. Consider even what happened to Galileo. He wasn't even promoting atheism or a different religion. He wasn't promoting blasphemy, heresy or any other well known sins. In fact we now realize he was promoting a truth that is now well established. Yet the church leaders were offended by his idea so much so that they wanted him to recant. Now, that tells me that despite them supposedly being the standard bearers and the leaders under God, they probably weren't really in touch with any God or else God could've led them to say with relief that finally someone figured out how the heavens work and now we can know the truth. It doesn't mean there isn't a god, but it points to the possibility that the RCC weren't in touch with any god and that maybe the god of the Bible isn't real. IOW, NO, it's not an argument that Brahama isn't real, but it's an argument that perhaps Jehovah isn't real.
If he were really a humanist then he would believe in God, the only one who has the ability to help humanity. Believing in anything other than God means you believe in the devil. The devil destroys people's lives which means that this guy is saying he is in support of the destruction of human life
Yet god is not helping humanity by stopping global warming or other issues that are a direct or indirect threat to humanity.
Plus i don't think you truly know the definition of a humanist. We don't believe in the supernatural that includes your little Boogeyman.
St. Timothy McVeigh the most Christlike🤣
Oh you mock Christians but you real have no morality to do so. There is no objective morality or Good and evil it is all relatively. You are just to cowardly to take the power and DO AS THY WILT . Murdering or raping another clump of cells is ultimately meaningless as it serving others and doing good
Atheist - there is no God, so live how want & do what’s wrong.
Also atheist - there is no God, and He is responsible for all the wrong.
What humanist will say if you cannot kill people but imprison them, and after they released they still do what they do, and infinite prison is worse than execution? If he says that Stalin (Сталин) was religeous... that what is "religeous"? Can i call atheists religeous then?)) "We aren't religeous", but he said that not-religeous Stalin (Hitler can be religoeus, Stalin is a abuser) is religeous, what about you then?))
This guy was TOO easy. It's like... i don't know, super easy))
Life is to complex to have developed naturally.......so we're going to invoke an even more complex being to explain it.
if you did you research on the subject you would realize the truth, i wont tell you the truth thats for you to find out.
People still dont get it, there is no single scientific evidence that human life has any value at all.
Come on, give me mathematical formula for value of human life.
Soft atheists are so funny.
Being atheist but not nihilist is just hypocrisy.
My goodness! Do you have any idea of what you're even talking about?What world do you live in cause it doesn't seem to be this one.Do you have any kind of interaction with reality at all or you just live in your head the whole time?I'm sorry if i seem rude but I'm just too shocked by the dunderhead things you're saying and I can't believe someone who probably thinks is very smart(as is the case with darwinists) said the things you said.
Why is it that a human life has to have a scientific value in order for it to be valuable?What's the scientific value of your parents,siblings and friends?What's the scientific value of those that helped you out of trouble,of those you confide in,of your teachers,of those you trust etc?All these people have no value to you since you have no mathematical formula of their value?.You need a lot of help kid....a lot!!
+ErrorCode
Very fitting user name you have there.
You're looking for scientific evidence for the value of human life, are you?
Well how about conducting a servey of a bunch of random people on whether they value any other people at all?
Doesn't sound very difficult now, right....
You appear more like a nihilist than any atheist on the web does!
Nick,
_"Really? Whats funny about atheism? And pl . . . . . . ."_
_"How many christians do you think claim to be believers to fit into thier culture but arn't stupid enough to actually believe in a god? Theres even hundreds of ministers who don't believe. Surely they are the hypocrites arn't they?"_
_"Come on.....please tell me what is hypocritical about atheism?"_
Well, let me interject here, Nick honey, Tell me, those hypocritical "Christians" who do not believe in God but claim they do are called What? What do you call someone who doesn't believe in God . . . . let me help:-
1. A Christian.
2. An Atheist.
When you have answered number 2 then add hypocrite in front of the word atheist and there is your answer. Hahahahahahah Nick, you are a walking disaster, please stay an atheist.
You may have to get mummy to explain what you did wrong here, as I note your atheistic buddies didn’t tell you to remove that post before Sarah sees it. Lol
When I show your post to my philosophy group tomorow, Nick the atheists will cry, they deserve better.
Wait a minute, first he says Atheism is bad because there’s no consequences once you’re dead. Then he says that Slarlin and Mao weren’t stopped untill after they killed millions.
Make up your mind! Is it bad that they weren’t punished untill after they did it (like basically every version of justice ever except Minority Report and Alice’s Adventures through the Looking Glass) or is waiting untill their dead anyway OK?
Not condoning the evil actions of Hitler but every atheist is not like Hitler in the same way every theist is not like a saint. It's all a matter of choice, i as an atheist know hurting someone is bad and even though I won't be rewarded in heaven for doing good I'll still try to do good. I was raised religious and I still do value the Bible for its wisdom but that doesn't mean I'll accept and follow everything from it. There are things I can't agree on but let it be.
I don't force people to comply with my worldview and I don't like it when people force me to follow theirs. Live and let live.
Just because Hitler and Stalin did evil things doesn't mean every other atheists are equally capable of that. Likewise, just because a person believes in god and hell doesn't mean he will not do evil. No person is perfect and I'm not saying there are no evil atheist either..
It's double standard to say Christianity should not be judged by its abuse unless the same applies to atheists. Don't judge us for the abuse of world view by some other person.
OK, so then atheism permits selfishness. But of course, that's what you'd expect from unbelief in a creator of a world atheists didn't create.
“I’m not hear to defend Is;am, I’m here to defend Christianity” he says while berating a humanist about communism.
That "humanist" changed his identity a number of times..
So when Christians were keeping slaves and humanists came along and said "We don't think you should be doing this subjectively" and the christians said, "It has been divinely revealed to us through the bible that it is objectively fine for us to keep slaves".
Who should we listen to?
170221dn Well you should do some research into the Bible and see if that’s what it really says. Understanding Old from New Testament is a crucial part in deciphering the morality of Christianity. Just because humans interpret the Bible incorrect, doesn’t mean the Bible isn’t teaching truth, justice and morality. Hope that helps.
When has that ever happened. Humanists are Delusional if they try to create a morality, because it is all utterly subjective. Having slaves as atheist or humanists has no meaning negative or positive. It might actually be positive as slaves improve the Utility monsters life as awhole /
@@Hezron389
Have you read the sections that endorse slavery? Why would you choose to reject them? Is that not you subjectively making up your own morals , and what's more you are stealing from secular society. Typical Christian, doesn't even know the bible. Would you like a lesson?
Fake Christians who didn’t follow the teachings of Christ. Therefore that’s fake
@@TheJoker-wr1cp
Those Christians had scripture to back their actions. YOU are the fake Christian.
Turek is truly simple-minded. Islamic jihadists would wipe out all non believers in their God if they had the power to do so. And they'd do it joyously in the name of God. How successful has a belief in ANY God been in preventing violence and genocide? Hitler was not an atheist. He said, "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." Those who do such evil ALWAYS rationalize their behavior, and many of those villains happen to believe in Jesus. Turek doesn't know what he's talking about. He's a con artist.
Why would we be ashamed of the Crusades and Inquisitions? They were 100% justified. You should be ashamed of attacking your own religion, Turek.
Atheism is like the house that is built on sand. It's foundation is soft and the house easily is washed away with its differing opinions. It has no solid foundation.
Atheists disbelieve in one more god than you. How does disbelieving in one less god than atheists mean your beliefs are built on solid foundations ?
_"Atheists disbelieve in one more god than you."_
I can't believe you would admit to being an atheist and make such a claim, utter stupidity.
Let me point out the obvious to you. if you murder one person and I murder one less than you that does not make us the same, honestly.
"utter stupidity."
You don't disbelieve in one less god than me ?
simon B,
_”You don't disbelieve in one less god than me?”_
I refer you to this comment I made above.
“Let me point out the obvious to you. If you murder one person and I murder one less than you that does not make us the same, honestly”.
If you fail to recognise a category error when it is made then you simply need to get educated in basic philosophy, it’s no big deal, often someone will point out your error.
If it’s pointed out to you in the most descriptive and simple way and you still don’t recognise it then don’t bother with a philosophy course, stick to reading “the god delusion” and quoting from it as that is about as far as you can go possibly.
It’s best to describe things as accurately as you can, do not use such vague and misleading descriptions just to make yourself(s) look smart as it just makes you both look foolish.
I haven't claimed an atheist is the same has someone who disbelieves in one god less. I'm just trying to get Spacedave 2000 to explain how something like disbelieving 999 gods isn't built on shaky foundations but someone who disbelieves in I more are.
Prepare for...in the comments...
-Discrediting Christians
-Strawmen that I can burn some steak with
- Asking for evidence for God when that wasn't even the focus of the video
-Memes that can be easily countered by Christians
-Assertions of dishonesty
-"Religion poisons the mind" 🙄🙄🙄
-"Look at what religion has done to society"🙄🙄🙄
I am first
Right back atcha Frank. You judge atheism by its use, not its abuse.
No Atheism is to be judged by its results. As atheism hold no inherent value or morality to be abused. Everything you can do and Want to do is permissible. You only limited yourself in Atheism out of fear for harm against yourself. But there is no Good or evil in atheism. No moral existence or Immoral one, nothing to call evil or denounce.
@@a6m3reisen8 Plenty of evil to denounce in religion
@@MrChiangching Not really If there is no God or religion to instill morality. Anything you could point to in any religion is just subjective morality. Now if say Christians are not following Jesus Christ's example that would be evil. Does not in fact make Jesus christ or his teachings evil. People hardly need god or religion to do evil the vast majortiy of genocides in the 21st century come from secular regimes. Who with no God to judge them become the ultimate judges. What was wrong with the purges of Stalin or Mao, or the attempted wiping out of jews by hitler who was pagan mostly or atheistic but hardly christian. If I violate God's morality that is objective for humanity that is evil. For me to Violate your Subjective Morality if there is not God. That is not Good or evil. Neither would it be Evil for me To rape and murder your Family and you. Its just one bag of cells making its utility monster of a bunch of other bag of cells. Your life and that of your Family has no more Value then the COVID virus or the influenzas virus .
In fact if there is a higher species of Aliens out there. The is no evil in them being utility monsters of Us. If they want to enslave us or eat us or just torture us. Nothing would be objectively wrong about it. Atheism has two laws Do what thy wilt and Power makes right. So basically Its religion that subscribes to a transcendent God of some sort. Or there is no morality, No good No evil, No purpose or Reason. Nothing but deaths awaiting all of us bag;s of chemical accidently produced clumps of cells. So while some might use Christianity for evil, it is a abuse of Christianity and will often break with Christianity as it becomes opposed to Christian values.
Here is a something to think about Critics of Christianity Say that Christians who stand against Gays are bigoted or evil. Because there sky daddy is trying to be mean and stop people from loving who they want. But even Atheistic Humanists or materlist or whathave you would if they were honest consider Homosexual as mistake. It is Mistake that hampers the first and most pressing urge to reproduce. Now those who support Homosexuality do not do it because Atheism supports it. They do it because life is about Pleasure. Unless the reproduction of Humans is more important. Then being gay is a biological mistake that should even be weeded out of the gene oool. As it provides nothing to the community pr the human race at large/
Another one was The anti-slavery Movement in europe and America were lead by Christians. Who were fundemental opposed to Chattal slavery on the bases it was immoral to treat a fellow creature of god so poorly. But Not so in a Athestic World view. Any behaviour or action that increases your wealth or power is displayed for the public to see
"The Consequences Of Life Without God"
For one thing, if Prometheus didn't exist we wouldn't have fire. And for his gift to humanity he paid a much greater sacrifice than Jesus. All hail Prometheus!!
Oh dear.... what a pity....never mind.
Sure. Go to jesus💜
The is just Absurdly shallow comparison. But you are after all a pointless chemical accident that resulted in a clump of cells. Your origin is even more miraculous than anything in any holy book or religion ever taught. From nothing Came everything, from non-life sprang up life.
Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven!✝️
This seems more a debate of logic vs faith than anything.
Religion is an abusable resource as much as it is a helpful one.
Faith can lead one to kill hundreds just as it can lead one to save hundreds.
Atheism is certainly a realistic way of looking at things, "interacting with what you can physically know" rather than what you can "spiritually know as a feeling" but in itself it's simply a replacement for an absolute, just as "god" is the Catholic replacement for an absolute.
It's just that the world has multiple views of what that absolute should be, and wouldn't you know it they tend not to align😪
I'm personally, going to stick with being open to the idea of an almighty word, but dictate myself by simply being a good person, rather than base myself over something that "could be"
I get a feeling that they're arguing the same point, but trying to focus on the wrong thing. Humans kind of, need a moral compass to keep a social order. For alot of people, either because they were raised that way, or were seeking something to fill that void, that moral compass is "God", that absolute is "God".
I typically feel no need to be at odds with religion unless it leads to harm, physical or mental against our own kind.
*to that point, people HAVE to stop abusing their so called faith to push selfish, harmful agendas*
And I say this as someone who's only disassociated with Christianity as a social religion.
Ideally a perfect all knowing God would not tolerate what could be interpreted as a faithful superiority complex.
A world without God as of now is as bad as a world with one.
You are living the consequences of life without god... because.. you know... he is make believe.
Hearing atheists arguments is how you know the Bible is the true word of God