That question always plagued my mind... glad I found this video.. God will give u knowledge and understanding if you choose to seek him.. Thank you Jesus! God bless you Dr. Turek
This is some asinine mental gymnastics. In a universe where the allpowerful, all present, all knowing Judeo Christian god exist, free will is incompatible. Answer me this, is god all knowing and all powerful? Is it possible to contradict, or do different from what god knows you’re going to do? “God knows the end from the beginning”. Uuh so before you even existed god already knew what’s going to happen throughout your entire life? Can someone do otherwise from gods knowledge? You didn’t even have consciousness he already knew all your actions, someone like Stephen Hawking would “choose” not to believe Christ and eventually die and be judge to hell and suffer for all eternity. Did Stephen Hawking or all the people that reject Christianity have will before they were born? Ooh yeah, you weren’t even born god knows everything, all choices you will make, he knows the end from the beginning of the Universe, yeah and you have free will, yeah makes total sense, very logical, sooooo clear. Slow clap.
I agree with you, it doesn't make any sense what some Christians are saying. We don't have a free will, at least not as we think we have. This is still a difficult subject to comprehend. But I'll try to explain it. We don't have a free will, we're just conscious. God has planned everything. Just like how He used the pharaoh to show His wonders. Now you might think then why would God create people if they are destined for hell. The thing is the word hell never appears in the original scriptures and also alot of the times man changed the word aeon in to eternal. But aeon is just a long period of time of which we do not know the end of but it WILL END. So whenever Jesus spoke that people would be lost for "eternity" it meant for an aeon. How do I know? Because God is an almighty God and does not fail in His plans and His plans are to reach every single soul. Also the Bible says that EVERYONE will bow down and say Jesus is Lord. Phil2:10-12
I wonder, do the apologists ever fear not knowing the answers to the questions. They are very knowledgeable. It can't only be the human mind but the work of the Holy Spirit.
You mean, apologists like Turek? People like him know enough to have confidence that answers exist. He’s probably looking for questions that he needs to research.
Every wise man will admit what he does and does not know. If one does not have an answer to something he will not fear saying he does not have the answer to a particular question.
For me, it comes down to the fact that we down here don't know what's going to happen, so every choice we make and everything we do is as valuable like we had free will and that's good enough for me.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent.,
@@Dizerner if you are given this facts what decision will you make You are 100% perfect need no one or anything you can`t get nothing for creation you don't need pray, love, companion, worship you are 100% perfect by yourself. But if you created you know with 100% certainty that if certain children will end up eternally suffering the torture of hell, and a different group of children will end up eternally on heaven. If you have that knowledge and the power to created them what is your decision a) Bring only the children that end up in heaven b) Bring both the children that end up in heaven and also hell c) Bring no children,.-
@@Dizerner "Now you can understand that God can indeed have sufficient moral reasons to allow children to be victimized and suffer" Odd that you automatically discard the most well sound answer to this predicament "God capital G" exist however he is not the christian god, the problem you face if you think only your worldview can account for everything you describe even when you see contradictions and problems, I know is hard to grasp the outsider test of faith, but just look your religion just as you look every other religion and you will notice the dissonance, don´t focus on the transcendental philosophical arguments for "God". If christianity you only need to focus in the resurrection 1) What data do we have? 2) What hypothesis best explains this data? 3) Do we have sufficient data to warrant belief in the hypothesis that best explains the data? And you will see how every other believer in a different religion or non believer see your religion and you are done. Of course you will still need hope, and meaning but you don´t need to get rid of "God" just the "christian god"
@@Dizerner so if it only comes by revelation. and "The Christian God" has revealed to you. then I just need to wait him to reveal to me, and I´ll be done. However as you know maybe he as already not chose before creating me and I damned to hell already in either case, if the christian god is true he has all the cards in his hand. Even so I would like to ask you. you seem very sure that the christian god has reveled to you, yet you see many believers in false religions that makes the same claims as you, and you mark them as believers in a fake god, how can you be sure that you aren´t one of the believers that think that their god has reveled but they have been deceived.
@@a.39886 You're leaving out a crucial point, GOD has given us a way out. That is Jesus. Imagine you train the dog, warn the dog and used every means possible to prevent that dog from stepping on the bear trap and the dog still goes and step on it FREELY rejecting your efforts made with love. That's what we can observe today when people reject GOD's love. The more realistic thing to add to your analogy is that we didn't place the trap and we cannot move it assuming it's there due to the actions of another dog. The bear trap would be the suffering that came along with the sinful decisions us and other people made with our own free will. GOD can't intervene with that because it would be violating our free will. Therefore, we in the case of your analogy cannot move the bear trap. Now let's say this dog openly accepts that we love and care about it, do you think it would purposely not listen to our instructions or try it's absolute best to avoid that trap until it goes to a bigger, better eternal place of joy? That's another big thing you left out, at the end of all of that, earthly death isn't the final destination and GOD is Just. I'm going to sound very grim here and raw for a bit, but I broke my ankle once and one of the motives behind it was that I was trying to bring joy to my friends when the accident happened. The incredible pain I went through, I would gladly go through again knowing that through Christ I am saved and a great eternity awaits beyond this brief temporary life. One more thing. Truth is objective, all these religions and world views can't all be right. The resurrection of Christ is the pillar for Christianity. I implore you to look it up. Have a great and happy life of love and prosperity. Much love.
He was the teacher at that point, giving an example for scripture...just as now thru his spirit we will be chastened when we do wrong, if we are one of Gods children.
If we had free will then God wouldn't know what we were going to do before we do it. Imagine you writing a script for a movie and wrote all the Choices that the characters will make. Most ppl are going to hell and God created those ppl while already Knowing that they were going to hell before they were conceived. So no matter what choices they made it was already known by God, that they would perish and burn for all eternity.
My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts. So STOP THINKING, shut up and just follow everything I say . . . Forget all that free will nonsense (No respect intended!)
If God already knows I’ll have fish for breakfast tomorrow, definitely i must have fish since he for sees it ,,, freewill will be that i chose to eat a snake or lizard instead of rice,,, and God cannot be wrong,,, by not eating rice haven’t i made him wrong?
@@Joseph-gv3xb Yes! You need to check out what the Armenians have to say about predestination and determinism. There is a difference. This guy I feel is very openly calvinistic.
LOVED the football analogy, really eye-opening. Truly everything is for the ultimate good of the Kingdom, and if your rebellion is gonna further His Kingdom then yeapp, you'll be born and live (what you think is) your life but alas, you're doing His will through your free will. Only difference is you can't change what the players do, but God can, but the ending is the same.
I try to explain this issue to my brother and he said that we are toys to God and useless because it's impossible to follow God's rules but yet he brought us without our permission.
@@krii998 it is possible to follow God’s rules, we just choose not to. And since it’s hard, out of God’s mercy he made Jesus the atonement for our sins. And for God to ask us permission to be brought to earth/exist we have to first exist
@@krii998Following God is a relationship with God. The rules you refer to often people means Old Testament, the 600 laws. The new “laws” are God’s objective standard of living, that is inherently good, like forgiving your enemies and loving each other authentically. That is God’s kingdom he will set up on Earth.
@@krii998i would ask your brother what does he mean by that and how did he come to that conclusion? I would ask your brother, how does he know we are useless? Moreover, why would we have to give God "permission" to "buy us" ? That is a moot weak point. God bought us because he knew by saving us, it would benefit us. It has nothing to do with permission. Our "permission" is irrelevant. It is us that chooses to accept his gift or reject his gift.
It's not primarily about causation. It's about the fact that anything you do from birth can't be outside of what God knows if he exists. Whether he caused it or not, you're still bound by his knowledge which is pretty much fate.
Shimiphew I find it fascinating how some people think about this. His knowledge of what will occur doesn’t mean He caused it to occur. Knowledge does not equal fate. How is it that we can grieve the Spirit? How is it that God was grieved that He made mankind?
@@MarkNOTW I didn't say he caused anything. If I had foreknowledge of everything that would happen tomorrow nothing could happen that would contradict that foreknowledge, otherwise it wasn't foreknowledge and it would be flawed. Doesn't mean I caused that stuff to happen but it would still be restricted. If I *knew* I was going to die tomorrow, I couldn't not die tomorrow... If I didn't die it means I would be wrong and I *didn't know* .
If God is love, holy and just. Why is this still a question? I find that many believers only believe the above to be true, rather than know this in the spirit to be true. Through conversations with many, too many are not expecting to encounter Him. It's in His revelatory tangible pressence that He rewards our seeking with "knowings". It's in His marvelous, glorious and awesome pressence that we realize that we cannot fathom Him. If the angels of Heaven are only saying, "holy, holy, holy" everytime they discover a new thing about Him, why should we expect a different reaction on our end.
Gregory, the question posed is a bad question. It is illogical and completely false. Everything is not determined because God has given power to His creation. The creation with the power it is given can execute activity within the limitations of said power. Man does not have free will man has a will and our wills are influenced by many causal forces with the primary force being our carnal nature that drives us to choosing sin. If man had free will, then man could choose not to sin but if that were true, then we wouldn't need a savior. Man will always choose sin because man was made flesh and subject to lusts of the flesh. Romans 8:20 tells us that we were made subject to vanity (worthlessness) AGAINST our will. It is no wonder that Christians are so confused because the leaders of Christianity are clueless.
@@therealgospelofchrist6823 Got a little closer with your reply thank you for it. Its still a mindbender though, something I have to really try and wrap my head around.
@@therealgospelofchrist6823 actually being made in Gods image we have the ability to not sin if we so choose but we are selfish creatures so we choose our own desires over what God desires.
He’s the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. He knows what choices you’ll make in your life but allows you to make them all. Good, bad or indifferent. He wants us to choose Him, but allows us to stray. He loves us so much to let us choose.
And just in case you tell me even though I chose evil, I can still believe in Christ and be saved from condemnation because he loved me then why would he allow me to choose not to choose him?
Humans are such a confused species. If they have free will, it's not good enough because somebody else' explanation didn't "make sense" to them. On the other hand, let's say that they didn't have free will, and they would call God unjust. No matter what option they choose, people are naturally inclined to tear it down because destroying something (including themselves) has always been the easiest thing for man to do.
Gabrielle Kpanlin I agree his comment is a poor representation of the positions regarding free will. One of his statements seems to contradict itself also.
True, we are made in His image, but must also be conformed.by HIM. For whom He did foreknow He did predestine to be conformed. We must take our licking then start ticking, according to His will and not our own. Satan came to steal, kill and destroy, and he's been at it for a long time, and very smooth giving us what ever we desire in this world, where unless God opens the heart and mind of anyone, they are lost. This is why we need to study the living word. John 1:1 - 5 ((He was in the beginning and always will be, both Father Spirit and Son, and must dwell in us.))
Once i was in my prayers, i asked god similar question, i got an answer something to say “ all things happen as per Gods will, but your wish will be added to that Will, nthg happens as per peoples wish” I feel this man keeps beatng round d bush.
This one will always be hard to grasp because we have finite minds. Free will and predestination has always been a crutch in the church because people will literally leave a church or be divided by it and the funny thing is this happens even when those that cause the problems aren't even all that smart about it
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent...-.
Guys it's doesn't matter if you couldn't understand God fully. All you need to do is to put your trust in him.. He has great things in store for you.. All your doubts will be cleared in heaven.. God bless
Melvin your correct it doesn’t matter if we can’t fully understand God but it’s great fun and the most interesting and worthy topic for me to spend my time on.God bless you.
@@Iampossible376yet you think god came from nothing? There was always energy and matter in space and there were other galaxies before earth was ever formed.
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ! John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD. Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours! 1Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go. If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ! John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD. Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours! 1Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go. If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
@Tonya Leibach how does that passage proof that we don't have free will? Jesus knew that Peter will deny him 3 times. How does knowing something causing something to happen. Simple answer it does not. Having knowledge about something can't in no way cause any kind of effect. Again please provide evidence for your assertion.
When you listen to what he says his points are so clearly trying to hide their own flaws - he only can accomplish it because either his audience don’t actually care or they are convinced by how he talks, not what he says
Considering the question was about how God and his choices set the stage for everything that goes on with our lives, the people who didn't choose to exist and have these supposed conditions laid out on us and the options we're limited to thanks to his divine plan, that was the point of interest coming from his question and Turek's answer is to direct away from it and say "well... but the football players had options, so God is actually good." As if that's how accountability works.
@@ThisguySL I'm not sure, based on that reply, if we're on the same page. I'm a believer, but I have problems with man's idea of what we are to believe. I feel that, although we are created beings with free will, free will is a byproduct of creation. God knows how we started, and how we'll end, based on our hive-like behavior, but not necessarily because of our choices. Human behavior makes our outcome inevitable. God wrote it into our DNA.
@@camc5483 I'm not a believer and I don't think you and I are in any real disagreement there. My point is free will or not, it's entirely irrelevant to whether you could adequately absolve God of the actions of people, given that according to scripture the circumstances of their lives are predicated on the choices he made that led to the creation of the world, the creation of man, and the circumstances that led to the fall that took place shortly after, let alone absolve him entirely. Which is what these arguments are designed to accomplish.
Freewill: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. If you watch a clip of a football game, it is always going to end the same. This is a constraint.
When we play the game, there isn’t constraint. God has the game clip sure, but we are the ones playing the game. Hope I made you reminiscence this comment you made three years ago lol.
A great way to describe free will, time and God’s perspective is with a video game analogy. For example, say Mass Effect, an open world RPG action game. You have tons of choices and can do almost anything, but there are certain key plot points/cinematics that happen along the way, and you can make good guy, neutral or bad guy choices at these moments. The end result is that things still conclude how the story needed to unfold, and your choices (good, neutral, bad) all lead to these key moments. You have free will, but they all line up with God’s plan, or rather, your choices are used to supplement the plan. Your reputation or, soul, is between yourself and the story, plan, or God in this metaphor. I also view God’s perspective like how we have a video game disc (moreso 10 years ago). God is outside of time, much like how we are outside the disc. Everything that did, will or can happen is contained on the disc, and the story is woven based on choices through time and already have scripts with chain events that lead to results. We know the story and can see it played out (especially if you’re a PC guy and can look at the files on the disc). It’s all at once inside time and outside of time. What matters is our individual choices and our relationship with God, i.e., the developer/creator.
There is NO such thing as free will. Free will is a human illusion created by man to stop God from being God so that man can become god. Choices are subject to boundaries, limits, rules, and laws and while many of those boundaries, limits, rules, and laws can be broken, they are not without consequence. In your video game analogy, you failed to mention that the video game designer programs the game to be played a certain way. It cannot be played in way that is outside of the way that it was programmed to be played (boundaries and limits). You certainly can exercise some independence of your own will within those boundaries and limits but it is not free. Let me provide an example... I have a 5 year old daughter and she lives in my house. She has things that I have given her... a bed, toys, etc. She also has access to the television, a trampoline, food, water, etc. Within the boundaries and limits that I've set, she can exercise some independence of her own will by going to her room to play with her toys or getting in her bed to take a nap. However, if I take her toys away or remove the TV from her room, she no longer has access to them to exercise anything. Does my 5 year daughter have free will? No, she doesn't... her will is subject to the boundaries, limits, and rules that I establish for her. Can she break some of them, sure she can but she will be subject to my consequences. There is no logical rational person that would support or advocate for a 5 year old being able to exercise any freedom in obeying my commands. Children are expected to obey their parents so the idea of free will is not even noble one. Free will is nothing but complete lawlessness... Bottom line is that you and I have a WILL but it is not free... We exercise our wills in a system that is inundated with boundaries, limits, rules, and laws in which we must learn to practice good judgment or suffer the consequences.
I agree yall kinda said the same thing the original was an analogy I like using comic books but its essentially the same as the video game exaple the most nd god is like stan lee alotta ways for the story to change but it all leads to superman saving the day fully determined the guy who commented went into the details of superman can fo kiss Lowis but if he gotta fight brainiac next pannel it dont matter what else was happening before he was always gonna have to fight at whatever determined moment that was
No, the players do NOT have free will. This is because of the outcome already being determined. If the score finishes 24-23 in favor of the blue team, it doesn’t matter what plays the other team runs or what scenario’s you put the red team in, they do not have the choice to score 24 or more points. Being able to run whatever plays they decide is not free choice because they cannot change the outcome of the game. So in the end no one on the field has any choice. It is the same with this god. If I’m damned to hell from the get go, and these events are playing out as if recorded on TV, then I do not have the choice to not be damned. Somewhere along the line I have to do something to caused me to be damned. That is not free will.
Here’s my random questions about free will: - Can you think of any decision that you’ve made that was not based on your previous experience and knowledge you have? - Let’s assume all decisions are made based on your previous experience and knowledge. What constitutes free will in this case? - Let’s assume that there are some decisions that are not based on your previous experience and knowledge. Does it mean that such decisions does not have a cause? If no, what causes them? - Should there always be some input for any change of mind? If yes, what constitutes free will in this case?
To piggy back on that here is another way to look at it. Look at any choice we have ever made. Lets say we could go back in time right before we make that choice and not know we made that choice before. Would we always make the same choice not knowing that we made it before? If the answer is yes we don't have free will.
@@davelanger Are we assuming that we take all our experience (we gained after the moment) with us to that moment? That will likely change the choice. Our personalities change over time, based on what we experience and how perceive or learn from those experiences.
Its a horrible analogy. The players in the taped game dont make a choice when you watch the reply. They only made choices in the past.that analogy would only make sense if you could watch the recorded game BEFORE the game took place. And P.S. - the players never had free will regardless of the analogy. If a player is playing than he is playing to win. He has no will in the matter. And if he plays to win, than if the ball is flying his way, he cant chose not to try and catch it. And if he caught the ball, he can not chose not to run toward the endzone or whatever tactic he deems beat at the moment.
@@sharonr2121 will has nothing to do with what we believe. We dont chose what to believe. Either we are convinced by the details and arguments we heard, or we're not.
It's quite simple. In the same way that one event naturally flows from another, the things that we do naturally flow from our will. Viewing time outside of It's flow or knowing everything that will happen, those things we choose to do are fully known by God. Yes, we choose what we do and how we respond from moment to moment, but because we are who we are we wouldn't have made any other choice or done any other thing. Consider what it means to make a choice. There are surrounding events and circumstances; there are your rationality and impulse; and there are your conclusions and actions. This is not complete but it's functional for this purpose. Whatever decision is made is made by your free will, and yet the factors involved in that decision were predetermined and, because the nature of your free will is known by God, the outcome is determinable. This is hard to grasp for a lot of reasons, but it's important to recognize that nothing in our system of analyzing and understand our universe is fully deterministic and we experience time as part of it's flow. It's like trying to visualize a 4th dimension. We just aren't built to understand it beyond abstract conceptualization
@@aidanmays7825 You said: "In the same way that one event naturally flows from another, the things that we do naturally flow from our will." and: "because we are who we are we wouldn't have made any other choice or done any other thing" and: "Whatever decision is made is made by your free will, and yet the factors involved in that decision were predetermined". You're describing simple determinism, yet you think there's free will in there somewhere. Perhaps you have a different definition of free will than I do. How would you define "free will"?
@@rosscarlson3701 Determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive. You are conscious, you experience, and you enact your will in everything that you do or do not do. When you look back on what you did yesterday it is fixed, and tomorrow when you look back on the things you will do today they too will be fixed. This does not negate that you freely chose to do those things. The scope of human understanding is quite limited here so at the end of the day these realizations are not that useful
@@rosscarlson3701 You're only viewing this through the narrow definitions of incompatibilism. There's a famous quote from Schopenhauer that puts it quite well: "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." None of this is as black and white as you think it is, mainly because we barely even have a surface level understanding behind the mechanics of critical elements of this discussion; namely, time and consciousness.
Here are the things that are determined at birth, and beyond your control. That you were born, your sex, your parents, your DNA, your looks, your intelligence, your physique, your culture, your country, your religion. Some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Others in the depths of poverty, and abuse. Some people have it hard and others not. We do not have a level playing field. Thanks God. Give us freewill, but not an even start.
Isn’t it so awesome that we serve such a wise and incredible God. These questions that may baffle us is just common knowledge to God, like us tying our shoes.
There's nothing wise about the God you follow he's all knowing he creates the devil he knows he's going to manipulate humans and then sends the humans to Hell anyway he creates rapist serial killers and murderers who he knows full well those people are going to traumatise victims and if the victims can't forgive the abuses they go to hell they join the abusers in hell although if the abuses are able to truly repent they go to heaven so the victim still ends up in hell if they can't forgive nothing is wise about that all god is doing is enabling everyone suffering and everyone thanks him for it everyone sing songs in his name while people are being tortured and murdered he is not wise he is a cruel demanding and is all knowing so if he deliberately put a child in a situation where they get raped why should he expect that child to forgive the abuser and if that kid doesn't doesn't have the emotional strength even though for some reason Christians think it's a choice to forgive if that kid didn't have the emotional strength he Burns forever in a fire guess what though I'm that kid that gets to burn forever and a fire because I can't forgive the person who god knowingly created with full knowledge of what was going to happen and he wants me to praise him how do I praise and thank a god that enabled my suffering why should I thank him for that I'm a miserable mess that sick of existing I never asked for any of this and now I have to spend forever micro managing my thoughts and feeling so I don't end up in a furnace forever god definitely isn't wise is a control freak everything has to be his way 100-percent and if you don't agree with that you get sent to hell
@@epicmonkey6663 So in your FINITE brain you think you can know what and why God allows and disallows ? I am so sorry that very bad things happened to you, and bad things happen to people all the time, BUT that does not nor ever will make it OK to question the God that created you and knew your name before he set the limits of the universe. This world belongs to satan and we are just passing thru it, but please, please, please, God knows your pain and anguish and wants to heal you and make you whole again. I promise if you just go somewhere private and humble yourself before Him and ask him to reveal himself to you He will. He will do in such a way that it will be the most private and personal thing you have ever experienced. God sacrificed His son so that we may be saved, he knows the evil that is here and what it does, he wants you to call on him. God is NOT this thing that just sits back and laughs at us, he feels for you and wants so desperately to be a part of your life. He loves you so much that he does not force anyone to worship him. Maybe bad things happened to you so that you would one day write this to me and I would be responding back to you. Who knows. Please hit me up if you would like to talk further. I love you brother.
@@armedprophet3321 he doesn't Force anyone to worship him but the consequences is eternal burning in a fire it's the default punishment for everything that god doesn't like it's either comply or burn in a fire forever there's no choice in the matter I don't even 100-percent know if this being even exist it drives me insane should I just pretend and imagining this being existing just so in case they are real don't burn forever Christians always talk of a relationship but is it just one-sided where you talk and get nothing back that's all I ever get from God in truth I don't even know what being humble means to be fair but if it's to be calm rational and thinking clearly that's practically impossible for me I have ADHD which comes with hyperactivity racing thoughts of lack of ability to concentrate consistently I have borderline personality disorder which makes me feel like a walking inconsistency I have autism as well all these things making me struggle consistently in day to day life on top of my emotional pain all I ever get is silence from this god no answers no nothing I'm just left confused in the dark should I just take this as a sign to live my life until he announces his presence to me because I am fed up I was fed up yesterday and I was adamant that I was done and now today I'm back at it again trying to confirm or deny his existence by always either leads me to Nowhere or people repeating bible verses I already know and if the world belongs to say and why is he going to lock him away for 1000 years and then 3 him again at a later date to cause more suffering? And also why did God Harden pharaohs heart sure the Pharaoh was technically doing that himself as well but God is essentially pushing him towards destruction at that point when he could probably also soften his heart as well and what is God's definition of protection because nobody seems protected by anything in this world
@@epicmonkey6663 Humbling simply means to recognize that he is God and is your creator, from what you are saying it seems like you are trying to hard to believe. I don’t really call prayer praying, what I mean by that is I have have conversations with God. I tell him how much I love him, I praise him and thank him for everything ( good and bad ) we don’t know the outcome of our really anything and only he does so what may seem bad is really good in the long run. I tell him how my day is going and always ask him to continue to reveal himself to me (and He does). I cast all my worries and concerns on him and let him deal with it. Finally I thank him that he sent his Son to suffer, die and then be raised 3 days later for me. I also thank him for his mercy, grace and love. My number one request is to always serve him and spread his word and love. In fact I was praying today while driving to take care of something and asked him to allow me to continue to serve him...........then you left this message. If you honestly seek God and reach out to him He will always answer. ALWAYS.
@@armedprophet3321 I'm one of those people that wouldn't necessarily say they believe that he exists but I'm paranoid of his existence and Christians constantly say to seek him out and you will find and admittedly there are things that are a little suspicious that further extend my paranoia of this beings existence like the people that freak out in baptism videos I will try and get one myself to see if I could experience whatever it is they're going through but in this Corona world that's impossible another reason I would be damned to hell along with not being able to forgive and is praising and thanking god requirement? Because at the moment I honestly genuinely couldn't do that and I know God doesn't like liars so I wouldn't want to lie the only thing I could genuinely be thankful for is for the actual sacrifice itself if I was absolutely sure of his existence but I couldn't say thank you in every single comment section a lot of Christians do another thing as well I know that god doesn't like fits of anger so I'd be asking for forgiveness for that at least five times a day I genuinely just cannot manage
I find that a lot of people on both sides of the debate conflate pre-knowledge with determinism. God knowing what you will chose to do in the future is not the same as him making you do it.
Sure if he leave out the part that he himself created us knowing what we will do. That is the main part of the problem. I may know that if a person will die if they fall off a building. If I know with upmost certainty that person will be pushed off a building when I created him then I simply created a person that will die regardless of free will. That is the problem.
If judas Iscariot was acting on free will when he betrayed & sold jesus, he somehow played a crucial role in our salvation. If he was predestined by God to betray jesus, he clearly didn't have free will. In both cases, he's partly responsible for our salvation & that exonerates him of any blame, but believers still blame & criticize him till this very day. The free will excuse just doesn't stand.
How do you know they haven’t? Aside from that presumption, “in control” can mean setting boundaries and directing a minimum selection of necessary actions, or it can mean micromanaging. Which do you think is true, and why?
The fact that God knows all of our decisions and choices we will make through out our life and where they will eventually lead us, it doesn't mean that are predetermined. They are all still by our free will and not programmed by God, it's like he has already seen the ending of our movie but we are the ones who have written the scenario.
This is the one simple question I wanted an answer to. Thank you. I want to pick up that book. Frank if you read this comment can you let me know so I can ask 1 more question, I'm very close to finally believing and feeling it in my heart.
This is great! I am praying for you. I was blessed to never struggle with these questions when I was not a believer ..... I simply didn't care about GOD or Christianity or anything else for that fact haha ...... There will always be deep questions for our finite minds but I have learned since being born again that the LORD will open us up to an understanding that a nonbeliever, like I once was, will never know. GOD bless and keep on seeking CHRIST while HE may be found.
Faith is trusting the best explanation of the evidence when you don’t have proof sitting there staring you in the face. It’s ok to make a decision without having every last question answered. But I wonder what your final question is. I hope you’ve gotten an answer.
I would encourage you to read a small book called...how good is good enough byandy stanley. It clarified many things for me in my struggle of understanding. About a 1 and a half hour red.
@@ajlancaster7316 Can you give me an overview why on your advice? I work a lot. I don't have any time to do research, let alone barely any personal time for things i need to do
@kcuf7 Yet God knows who would and who wouldn't repent. How is that free will? That means choice is only an illusion. What you choose doesn't matter, because it will go towards what God KNOWS would happen.
kcuf7 God knows everything. He knows how to make Atheists believe. He does not do anything to make Atheists believe. Atheists go to hell. They had free will. The fact that your god allows people to go to hell means that either 1. Your God is not omnipotent and can do everything - hence why he did not do anything to make Atheists believe 2. Not Omniscient and knows the future and every outcome 3. Not all loving and lets people burn in hell because he does not love everyone That is the undeniable. YOUR god is at least 1 of those. OR he just does not exist at all and free will is an illusion.
Eric Mago but he gave them a choice to believe, they chose not to listen, he has given warnings several times to repent and believe, if you don’t, he did warn you. It’s your punishment, think of love, love is letting someone choose what they want, would it be loving if we were mindless robots? To serve him unwillingly? I doubt it, so he gave us a choice BECAUSE he loves us.
Scripture says a man's heart plans his way but the Lord directs his steps. Meaning people choose the way they will go and God determines the course to get there.
It’s complicated for us to comprehend but a Being that created our complex works has made it a just existence for us to freely be who we choose to be and not what He wants us to be
Everything is Determined and we do have Free Will.Our Lord Jesus is Almighty and Powerful.God always was,is,and always will be.This is the Concept of God.Have Faith,Hope,Love and Trust in Our Lord Jesus.
"Everything is Determined and we do have free will." How in the world does one have free will if everything you will do is already determined before you are even born/conscious!? This is some asinine mental gymnastics. In a universe where the all powerful, all present, all knowing Judeo Christian god exist, free will is incompatible. Answer me this, is god all knowing and all powerful? Is it possible to contradict, or do different from what god knows you’re going to do? “God knows the end from the beginning”. Uuh so before you even existed god already knew what’s going to happen throughout your entire life? Can someone do otherwise from gods knowledge? You didn’t even have consciousness he already knew all your actions, someone like Stephen Hawking would “choose” not to believe Christ and eventually die and be judge to hell and suffer for all eternity. Did Stephen Hawking or all the people that reject Christianity have will before they were born? Ooh yeah, you weren’t even born god knows everything, all choices you will make, he knows the end from the beginning of the Universe, yeah and you have free will, yeah makes total sense sooooo clear. Slow clap.
If a man, let's call him Dave, won the lottery with a lottery ticket he bought for the very first lottery draw held in England, and God foresaw that this would happen before Dave was even created, could dave have then chosen not to buy that first lottery ticket?
@@Yossarian. ye he could have chose not to buy that ticket but then god would not have foreseen him buying it God knows what you are going to do he doesn't force u to do it. If the argument is God knows you are going to choose option B could you choose option A, yes but then God would have known you would have chose option A, but you didn't choose option A you chose B and that why God knows you chose B, but it's still your choice.
@@Yossarian. silly the choice that you make is the choice god knows you are gonna make 😂 “Dave trying to go against what God knows” is useless because his choices are the independent variable and God’s knowledge is the dependent
For the longest time, I was told by my church pastors and fellow Christian friends that the only reason God allows evil in this world is because he gave mankind free will. However, recently I began to think, if God cares so much about free will and yet he is also perfect and holy, what's the point of making the people He knows are going to reject him or even commit atrocities? My question to people that believe God gives free will is this: Is God obligated to create each and every human being who has or who will ever live? If so, wouldn't he not be all powerful and sovereign if he must be obliged to create you and me? Therefore, God must create us by his own volition, which means he could have made a better world, he could have decided to not create human beings that would commit atrocities or create those who would become unbelievers, sending them to hell (essentially, he could have chosen another way to create life on earth.)
He can’t force people not to sin, so them going to hell has nothing to do with him. Him knowing they will go to hell shouldn’t be a reason for them not to created… those chose to go to hell, they deserve that punishment (btw I don’t believe hell is eternal, but equal length to their sin). God isn’t obligated to do anything, he manages everything in the world just because he loves us. Him not creating people who would go to hell would bring unbalance the world, of course which God would know, he sustains everything that exists.
Quite an accusation, accusing someone of purposely lying. Care to explain how you came to that conclusion? Also, how is that a bad analogy. I thought it was pretty sound.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent..-.
Well because, while He knows whether you will pray to Him or not, He will not do anything until you pray to Him and show your faith. For instance, let's say your mother has cancer and you want to pray to God to save her from cancer. God will only save her if you take the action to pray for her. Thus, he waits until you have prayed for her to be saved to actually save her. So while he knows He will save her, He will only save her because you prayed to him, thus he will wait for you to pray to Him.
@@antoniowolf4377 Yeeeahhh, I'm fairly certain God hasn't saved anybody with cancer (and we all know 90% of all cancer patients have someone on their side praying for them), but that could just be me saying stuff.
It's far more than that God knew what people were going to decide and yet they still have free will; it's that God ordained all that comes to pass and yet our choices are still our own. God ordains who will and who will not be with him for all of eternity, and yet all those who will not remain culpable.
There's a difference between foreknowledge and knowledge. You can foresee the outcome of a magic trick you've seen before, but it doesn't mean you understand said trick. Determinism is more about the implications of knowledge's existence irrespective of one's possession of that knowledge. No one is arguing that you possessing that knowledge means you somehow have inserted yourself into that rigid cause-and-effect explanation. It just means you can understand what you may have already foreseen coming by having already witnessed it beforehand.
The argument falls apart when the fact that God created people knowing what choices they make comes up. He created them that way in his omniscience and omnipotence. Its perfectly reasonable for a non-creator and omniscient beings knowledge of the outcomes to not affect free will. However, if an omniscient God created beings knowing every choice they will make, then he must have created these beings to make these choices - he is both omniscient and omnipotent (and omnipresent as well. The speaker fails to account for this problem and just skirts around it. Fail.
I don’t think that is correct. That isn’t free will. I personally believe that we do have free will and there is endless possibilities and choices that we make. It is just that God knows all of the choices and they all still lead to revelations because his plan is just so great
@temporarysanity Again, his plan is so great that all possible options lead to key moments. Jesus fulfilled those prophesies because he knew what to do to complete them and how they lead up to them. Revelations is essentially prophesy, but it just means all possible options still lead to key moments. Again if this how he says it then there is no free will. God knows all the possible choices we can make and all of them still lead to his desired outcome and fulfillment of his prophesies.
@@robodaviking2209 If god knows you are going to do choice A for example before you even do it, are you able to go against gods will and do another choice?
davelanger That is not what I am saying. God knows all the possible choices you could make like a, b, c etc.while there might be something you are more likely to choose it doesn’t mean you have to take that choice. The point of this is that God is still giving you the chance to join him and you aren’t predestined to go to heaven or hell. His plan though is so great and he is so all knowing that he even with all of our individual choices that we can make that his prophesy and will still happens.
davelanger I didn’t say that we have a choice to go to stay here or something. We all will go to heaven or hell but it is our choice on where we get to go by choosing to believe or not determines if you go to heaven or hell.
With all due respect, the logic here is deeply flawed to say the least. If an apparent 'god' really knows how something is going to turn out from beginning to the end and he knows the choices a person would make, that in itself is a predetermined notion. Unlike the football game, where the players have already played their game and the guy gets to know about said game only after it has occured, it in no way justifies having any pre-deterministic value. You can't just pick and choose if God exists within the fabric of time or outside of it, based on what suits your narrative.
I have a personal theory about this topic that may help. Our lives are led by the choices that we make. But before making those choices we have options. God knows all the possible versions of your life it is all foreseen. God knows that this wouldve been you if you chose or did not choose this. BUT among those many outcomes of our lives it is our choice whether to trust god's direction for our life or trust in ourselves, or trust in horoscopes etc. We have freedom in what we choose. God will not force you to choose him. But he sees your heart before you make a choice therefore he knows what youre about to choose.
@@daintymarie5271 I think it makes sense. I actually believe in God and over the past weeks i've been getting a lot closer to Him but the single thing that bothers me is why would He create people that didnt choose him, and then punish them for eternity. Maybe those people just didnt wanna exist at all, why not just accept they didnt choose God and just erase them from existence instead of hell for eternity. Im not trying to argue or anything, but I am very open to understand this cus this is really getting in my way and confuses me.
@@teoteodora7676 well I understand you. That baffled me now too to be honest hahaha. But this thought came into my mind, this is just my opinion lol, not from any church or apologist, i just thought of it now. Creating a person who chooses you is just umm, not justifiable. Imagine you're God, and you created people that has no freedom to live however they want, they are only bound to choose god and live a god centered life. As humans we think that's how it should be it makes more sense so that no people would burn in hell. But putting yourself in the shoes of God, he is a loving God not a demanding one. So he created humans, showered them with blessing and everything else they needed (sun, earth, ocygen, food, etc.) cause God loves his creation. However we have the freedom to think for our own so it is a choice for us every day, every minute and second to choose God or to make ourselves God's of our own lives. A.K.A separation from God, A.K.A sin. So since God hates sin or rebellion against him, he offers grace and mercy for people throughout our entire lives to repent and choose him, but for those who stay in their pride till they die, then they chose to be separated from God, and God's anger will be showered there in hell cause here on earth he showers mercy & grace.
@@daintymarie5271 Yes i understand that and it makes sense. But what i dont understand is why would they suffer for eternity? Thats like a lot, and its very hard to imagine someone who will go thru torture forever, non stop. My question is why wouldnt God simply erase from existance those people after they chose not to follow Him. I choose Him and I want to go to heaven and be in his presence but why not just make those who dont want that dissapear, ceasing to exist. I get why unbelievers exists, but after they existed and decided they dont want to follow God they just vanish forever. Im so confused i really wanna understand that
@@teoteodora7676 ive thought about this too. God did say he will make a new heaven and earth. the future is still very mysterious. anything could happen i mean only God knows if he'll keep souls in hell for eternity.
Not really, the audience member doesn’t orchestrate the conditions that will influence how the NFL players end up performing. Audience member = bystander God = intrinsically involved
+L Groot you miss point. God doesn't control the actions of humans any more than the questioner controls the NFL players. Did you really miss the point of the analogy? Or are you a determinist? Frank rejects strong Calvinism as demonstrably false.
Uber Genie oh I got the point of the analogy, it simply doesn’t hold up under close scrutiny. Audience member and God aren’t even remotely similar. When the audience member is picking the players, deciding what the the playing conditions are going to be, choosing the tactics, knows and influences who the opposition is going to be before the draw and exactly how they will perform etc. Then they are in the same realm.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent.c
Let me give you some insight from something that's can be found in Christianity, but is from something outside of Christianity. Very outside of Christianity. So much so it involves two mythologies in a videogame (God of War: Ragnorak). "You are the sum of your choices. Nothing more." We choose who we want to be, but God knows our choices so He knows who we will be
Wait can somebody help me out? I really liked the analogy Frank gave, but I don't see how that can explain this question about God. Sure we can watch the game knowing the results, and the players would still have free will playing the game. But we did not determine the moves made by the players. God not only knows the results, himself *determined* each and every move of the players. So it indeed seems like the players would be the puppets of God. So how do the players still truly have their own choice, if their choice was pre-determined by God? Any help is appreciated.
I have no idea. I think Frank just wanted to get as close as possible to the correct answers. But ultimately nobody knows how free will and God's sovereignty really cooperate.
The Bible does give us indications that there is both free will and some predetermined plan that God has in place. I tend to lean more toward the free will side, but I can’t rule out all ideas of predetermination. My dad is a pastor, and the way that I have heard him explain it is that there are two ditches in the road. If you stray too far on either side, then you end up in the ditch. Instead, we need to find balance between the two and allow for the possibility of both. I think that a Frank Turek’s point in the video was to say that just because God knows something will happen, that does not necessarily mean that God predetermined it to happen. Knowledge of an action does not take away the free will of that action. I hope that this could help some. God bless.
Hello Everyone, I think we are saying we don't have free will, to justify what we are doing and not take any blame, but what we have to understand is, it is us who get the pleasure when doing something God calls sin not God, And I believe it's good to ask more questions because we will get more answers but people doesn't have all the answers, only God does so if we truly want an answer, we could ask him by praying and he will answer to us , as our mind could comprehend. And I have one question for you, many people say they don't believe God exist because, if God exists why is there evil,injustice....... but you got to ask yourself, if you die some day and stand infront of God, and if he gave you the answer to all of your questions until your satisfied with the answer, is that question worth going to hell for. And I can see many questions about judgment day, God doesn't want to judge us. infact he did everthing in his power not to punishment us, by laying all of our punishment on his son Jesus christ. Nowwe Can put our punishment on Jesus or take the punishment ourselves. Althought God can do all things he will not bypass our will and force us not to take the punishment. God didn't promise us, a perfect world but he promised us he will always be with us and give us internal peace, fredom from sin and true happiness. I am not writing this because I know more or because I am righteous but because I think it's good to share my opinion and belief, Have a Great Day everyone
If I tell you there’s a fire-breathing dragon that lives in my garage, you will ask me to show you. But my response is “I forgot to say that it’s an invisible dragon”. "OK” you say “No problem - we’ll sprinkle flour over the floor so that it will leave footprints”. “Good idea” say I, “but I should have mentioned that the invisible dragon hovers a few feet off the ground”. “No sweat” you say “We’ll mount sensors to detect the heat from its fiery breath”. “Good idea” say you, “but I forgot to say that the fiery breath is in fact heatless”. And so on, with me always coming up with reasons why you can’t carry out any tests. Now, the point is - just what is the difference between an invisible, floating dragon that breathes heatless fire and cannot be detected by any means, and nothing at all? The moment anyone proposes an untestable thing, the onus of proof is upon them to show that what they propose is different from nothing.
There is no difference Neither exists. If you are trying to compare God to this make believe dragon, then you are making a category error. God actually exists, has acted and spoken in time in a way that is intelligible to humanity, and has left you without excuse for denying him, your make believe dragon has done and is none of those things ;)
@@childboo2450 you missed my point. The point was that the experiment was not an accurate representation of what God has revealed of himself through nature or his word... I never suggested to give you evidence, evidence goes to the judge, not to the guilty sinner who is on trial (you).
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ! John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD. Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours! 1Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go. If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
Many fame speaker make the answer more complicate than the question. They explained bla bla bla quoting many verse in the Bible then the questioners become more confused. I never got satisfy answer how great the speaker is about this question. But your answer make sense. You simplified the answer in easy way and make us to digest. Thank-you sir.
That's a insane analogy. If you record the game and watch it, you are just a bystander.. You didn't create those players, but God created us according to Bible. So, God predestined everything on how our life is going to progress. THERE IS NO FREE WILL. if I don't believe in God, that's because either there is no God or he didn't care to reveal himself or he created me in such a way. So we are not responsible for our actions.
+Vivek Naren God doesn't predestine men's actions. There is no Biblical justification for that position. If we aren't free then we are not sinners either since we didn't choose to sin but were forced by God to sin and then condemned to death for actions of which we had no control. GOd becomes the biggest tyrant in existence if your view is correct. He is responsible for all evil and all sin. There is the word predestine in scripture but applies to God's reforming work in redeeming us as we freely choose to follow and trust Jesus as our savior. Not puppet strings needed.
Uber Genie two massive assumptions in citing biblical writings to determine Gods attitude towards free will. 1. The bible may not be accurately conveying his intent on this matter 2. He lied/ omitted important details when divulging his freewill message
Best explanation I’ve ever heard! I’ve been saying this very same thing! But not payed out as beautifully. I always said it’s a perspective thing. From our perspective we have free will but from God’s perspective He knows the outcome. If God is Love, then by definition you can’t have love without freewill.
The only thing we love is our sin. IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ! John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD. Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours! 1Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go. If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
Grace is a present from God wrapped up and ready to be opened by us. Jesus dying and paying for our sins is the gift he gives us. But a present is useless unless you open it. God can’t force us to open a present. If he forced us to love him it wouldn’t be love. Love must be freely given. So if God makes sure I get to heaven no matter what then I don’t have the free choice and will to choose to live him. God already knows who will be saved because he knows the future. He prepare a house in heaven for us but it’s only for those he knows will be saved. Any scripture you read and think it means a Calvinism view is because you are misinterpreting the scripture. This one fact proves my view…”Love is a free will choice. If I’m forced by Gods will to love him so I may be saved it’s not real love”
vInteresting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent.
@@yegorshalamai6716the very fact that you know the outcome of the game means that no other choices could have been made, thus eliminating the concept of free will because no other actions could have happened. if God intervened and made a change to the game then there would be two options for what happened , either way , it was predetermined already. you cannot have a free will in this context , and if protestants were honest they would be calvinists and not claim free will as a salient option
Oh I’ve always struggled with this question. I’ve always framed it that God knows every single possible decision that we as human beings can make in an infinite universes existing simultaneously such that the outcomes are already known. That God has preordained path’s, the a golden path, that is aligned with his will that leads to God, and each decision we make is a decision that either aligns with his golden path or strays away from it. The paths of the decisions exist and God knows the out comes but it’s still personal choice. It bothers me to think that some would be called to God and others not. I guess With how I’m framing it it I view God’s omniscience and our free will like a HUGE complex maze like we are mice and God knows all the twists and turns that can be made. The maze ends in two options a big piece of cheese at one end, and the other end a rotten cheese in a mouse trap. At the beginning p, the start of the maze, the rotten cheese is the only cheese the mice smell. Every step and every turn the mice makes in the maze is a decision that leads us to the end (death). That maybe at the beginning of the maze the cheese as we the mice wonder through wondering what knowing that a cheese is at the end. Then at some point along the maze the good choose is revealed. Presenting a new smell. Now all mice can smell the two different cheeses. Some continue to follow the path that leads to the rotten cheese because that is what they know and they don’t trust the smell of the good cheese. And those that that ultimately choose to trust the smell of the good cheese with the belief/faith of that smell being better, change from their path of following to the bad cheese and follow the scent to the good cheese instead. Maybe God ordained the outcomes by determining who would be better able to discern the good smelling cheese versus the bad one. But before reaching the end of the maze, the mice had the opportunity to smell both cheeses and choose with smell to continue to follow to the end on the promise that the smell held. Does this make sense?! Or Maybe this whole analogy is the capitalist in me wanting equal opportunity, but the onus of choosing to be with God is on us and not Him the creator. That everyone would have the opportunity to know God on earth but that some choose to deny and some accept. Someone tell me if I’m crazy or just rambling.
I believe the answer is in the relationship between morality and mathematics. 11 dimensions to existence. In order for God to be perfect justice he needs to put his creation in a system where their will is completely soverign, meaning they can choose to reject Him, and according to superstring theory, he has created that existence for us. He gives us a conscious of right and wrong, and the Holy Spirit that convicts us when we do wrong. Praise the Lord.
I've always thought of this as God gives us the freedom to make choices, we exercise those choices but God reigns over them so those He approves of come to pass & those He doesn't, He restrains to achieve His ultimate outcomes - but we still freely made the choices. God either permits us or stops us. That's my best guess.
My exact questions too. The instant your born god already knows if your going to hell or heaven so in a way he has already judged you so what is the point
Hold on what’s going on : I like to think it’s possible he still creates that person because 1,) he’s still gonna give that person the gift of free will and 2.) that person like dr frank turek just said could be responsible for reproducing another person who will turn out to be christian. everything goes according to Gods plan. Now a question for you my friend: why should God just not create life because they will go to hell? i mean to me that seems like he’s taking away our free will right? and love without free will is meaningless so it wouldn’t be logically possible for God to do that. i hope that helps and make sense. God bless
PGsmoove but then again hell is meaningless too. Whats the point if your not going to accomplish anything, if your never gonna die, if there isn’t anything to do etc... how is burning for eternity gonna help that person Learn there lesson? And you are actually faced with the illusion of free will because even if you have a choice you will still choose the predetermined choice no matter what you do your future self has already done it and the end result (heaven/hell) will never change
Hold on what’s going on 1.) hell isn’t to learn a lesson. God is giving that person what they’ve wanted. when you choose to not follow God you choose to be in a life absence of God. and that’s exactly what hell is. it’s not to teach u a lesson it’s total separation from God. 2.) if free will is just an illusion, how i can i trust what you said is true? i mean it did take your free will to say that did it not? or was that also an illusion making your claim “free will is just an illusion” false.
There is free will....(example). If my best bro and I go to a brand restaurant, I know what he is going to drink. He is going to drink water, not because I made him and not because he has no choice. I just know him.... no imagine how much more God knows you.
But there is a difference because God can see unlimitly into the future before you were even born, He already knew what you were gonna do, say, and many more by the fact that he created you. Because God created time, time emcompasses the past, present and future, since he created the future, and that since he's all knowing, he already knew in advance of what's gonna happen since the future is fixed, hence why there is prophecy, and you can't do anything to stop it. He asked "Is God obligated to only create a universe with only 2 people, if he knew the third one would be an atheist", the answer is yes, because burning people for eternity is wrong, and atleast he created 2 people that's not gonna suffer than create a being thats gonna suffer.
@@TheKnowledgeMan101 That is a good argument. If I am aware of which path you’re going to choose and also I know your final destination, that means you only have an illusion on free will and the “game of life” has no meaning because it is already settled.
I use the analogy of a parent and child, having actually experienced this situation. A child wants to go and do some activity but as a parent you already know what is going to happen with that activity. Does the fact that as I parent I know what is going to happen make the child choose that course of action? This analogy came about as my ex decided to take her oldest son to pick out a movie. Knowing the temperament of both individuals I advised her against the actions but she was adamant and I let her head off with him. Coming back he stormed up the stairs and she came into kitchen in a foul mood. They had gotten in a huge argument over the type of movie to pick up. I knew this was going to happen because I KNEW intimately both of the people involved. Did that knowledge make them choose differently? No. Also, if God exists in or above the time dimension, seeing the end to begging, the God has already seen everyone's choice. (Think of this like the movie Ground Hog Day). Again, God has intimate knowledge of the person and the situations. Does that mean that the people were forced to act a certain way? Again the obvious answer to me is no. Foreknowledge or Intimate acquaintanceship does not restrict other people in their choices. To really know what does affect peoples choices just go watch some TV, movies or some other media and you'll see the attempts easily enough in them.
your kid could always surprise you. THe infallibility in unpredictability of people makes that known, not saying it would happen but your knowledge is still limited so it wouldn't prove that it would happen without a shadow of a doubt. But a god who cannot be wrong about an even, and judging by the words of others cannot change his mind or actions, sees and event and that event will happen no matter what is proof of predetermined events that show that free will is non existant. If your knowledge wipes away any chance of a different even occuring, like how someone will die, what someone believes or even if they will have children then no free will actually exists.
There is a big difference, God is supposedly infallible and omniscient, you are not, and even people you know really well can surprise you and your knowledge is not what is certain to inevitably happen. You don't know how they'd react, you're just presuming how they're most likely to act, even if you're 99.999999999999999% certain to be correct, that's not 100% sure God is supposed to be
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50No. I'm actually not. Just because someone knows a person so well that they can predict the actions to a particular event doesn't remove that person's free will.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent..,..
he didnt answer the question. if he already planned everything out, it means he designed everything. kinda like a writer for a book. you designed every character and you decided what is already going to happen to them. are you gonna send a man to hell and be angry at him because you designed him in such a way?
@@indian9044 but if he is all knowing he know whether you will or not and he created you in such a way to make the "decision" of believing in him. Free will couldnt exist if he created us and is all knowing because it would mean he designed us while knowing exactly what we would do. The football analogy doesnt work in the video because I didnt create the teams while knowing all which would win and lose because then I would know who would win I made them to do that. Arguing that we have free will while also believing we were created by a being that knows everything that will happen including what we will do and how we will live doesnt make sense because we were created in such a way to do those things because we all behave differently based on how he created us so he created us to do those things.
With the NFL analogy, Turek assumes there's a gap in God's knowledge. The gap occurs when the persona didn't know the outcome in real time (when it was being recorded) until it had already occurred (watching the replay). Is Turek suggesting that there's a mechanism greater than God that controls omniscience that subsequently feeds him information?
He was unsatisfied of the answer, now he knows there is a God, and one day he Will stand before Him. I bet his way of life does not fit in Christianity.
The box of God’s working fits the world like a glove. Foreknowledge and predestination do not offer a contradiction, just an apparent one. God is outside time.
God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so. A.W. Tozer
All this talk and not one mention of our Lord and Savior. Christ Jesus alone is salvation. Love never fails, Gods love never fails, Gods love for mankind will not fail. Mortal puny man is weak by sin and Christ Jesus fulfilled the law; of sin and death. By becoming a sin offering by becoming flesh and conquering the flesh sinless and blameless. We now are now justified, by faith in Christ Jesus. The past is gone , the old schoolmaster was a foreshadow of a great thing. Christ Jesus is the new law. Law of love. Christ is love. 2. New commandments hes giving us. Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your might. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself This fulfills the law Preach the law of Jesus whom is love and mercy which endureth forever. How great and beautiful is our Lord and Savior Not only ours but for the lost world He will not loose one and He will bring it to pass For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, who WILL have ALL mankind to be saved Mercy triumphs judgment His mercy endureth forever He is God Almighty Creator of heavens and the earth His will be done Amen in Christ
The fatal flaw in Frank's analogy of a recorded football game: The football game players may have free will, but the recording of the football players definitely don't. If the football players played another game later, the scores could be different, but if you play the recording again, assuming it hasn't been edited, the scores will always be the same. So if God is omniscient and outside of time, then we aren't the football players in this analogy, we are the recording.
people often get hung up on the subtle difference between predetermined (using cause and effect to put in motion a desired outcome) and foreknowledge (having knowledge of the outcome and how it came to pass).
That question always plagued my mind... glad I found this video.. God will give u knowledge and understanding if you choose to seek him.. Thank you Jesus! God bless you Dr. Turek
This is some asinine mental gymnastics. In a universe where the allpowerful, all present, all knowing Judeo Christian god exist, free will is incompatible.
Answer me this, is god all knowing and all powerful?
Is it possible to contradict, or do different from what god knows you’re going to do?
“God knows the end from the beginning”.
Uuh so before you even existed god already knew what’s going to happen throughout your entire life?
Can someone do otherwise from gods knowledge? You didn’t even have consciousness he already knew all your actions, someone like Stephen Hawking would “choose” not to believe Christ and eventually die and be judge to hell and suffer for all eternity. Did Stephen Hawking or all the people that reject Christianity have will before they were born?
Ooh yeah, you weren’t even born god knows everything, all choices you will make, he knows the end from the beginning of the Universe, yeah and you have free will, yeah makes total sense, very logical, sooooo clear. Slow clap.
@@enemay
And did Pharaoh decide to harden his heart? Not according scripture....
I agree with you, it doesn't make any sense what some Christians are saying. We don't have a free will, at least not as we think we have. This is still a difficult subject to comprehend. But I'll try to explain it.
We don't have a free will, we're just conscious. God has planned everything. Just like how He used the pharaoh to show His wonders.
Now you might think then why would God create people if they are destined for hell. The thing is the word hell never appears in the original scriptures and also alot of the times man changed the word aeon in to eternal. But aeon is just a long period of time of which we do not know the end of but it WILL END.
So whenever Jesus spoke that people would be lost for "eternity" it meant for an aeon.
How do I know? Because God is an almighty God and does not fail in His plans and His plans are to reach every single soul. Also the Bible says that EVERYONE will bow down and say Jesus is Lord. Phil2:10-12
enemay just because he foreknew. Does not mean we do not have freewill. It just means he already knows the outcome.
Sleezo Porter free will and all knowing can not coexist just as the world has proven that god can not be all good and all powerful
I wonder, do the apologists ever fear not knowing the answers to the questions. They are very knowledgeable. It can't only be the human mind but the work of the Holy Spirit.
If they don't know they will just say they don't know.
@@daemonzap1481 theres a reason they dont know like why God didnt save someone that they dont know, we dont know why but we know why we dont know why
They don't know what they don't know.
You mean, apologists like Turek? People like him know enough to have confidence that answers exist. He’s probably looking for questions that he needs to research.
Every wise man will admit what he does and does not know. If one does not have an answer to something he will not fear saying he does not have the answer to a particular question.
For me, it comes down to the fact that we down here don't know what's going to happen, so every choice we make and everything we do is as valuable like we had free will and that's good enough for me.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent.,
@@Dizerner if you are given this facts what decision will you make
You are 100% perfect need no one or anything you can`t get nothing for creation you don't need pray, love, companion, worship you are 100% perfect by yourself.
But if you created you know with 100% certainty that if certain children will end up eternally suffering the torture of hell, and a different group of children will end up eternally on heaven.
If you have that knowledge and the power to created them what is your decision
a) Bring only the children that end up in heaven
b) Bring both the children that end up in heaven and also hell
c) Bring no children,.-
@@Dizerner "Now you can understand that God can indeed have sufficient moral reasons to allow children to be victimized and suffer"
Odd that you automatically discard the most well sound answer to this predicament "God capital G" exist however he is not the christian god, the problem you face if you think only your worldview can account for everything you describe even when you see contradictions and problems, I know is hard to grasp the outsider test of faith, but just look your religion just as you look every other religion and you will notice the dissonance, don´t focus on the transcendental philosophical arguments for "God". If christianity you only need to focus in the resurrection
1) What data do we have?
2) What hypothesis best explains this data?
3) Do we have sufficient data to warrant belief in the hypothesis that best explains the data?
And you will see how every other believer in a different religion or non believer see your religion and you are done.
Of course you will still need hope, and meaning but you don´t need to get rid of "God" just the "christian god"
@@Dizerner so if it only comes by revelation. and "The Christian God" has revealed to you.
then I just need to wait him to reveal to me, and I´ll be done. However as you know maybe he as already not chose before creating me and I damned to hell already in either case, if the christian god is true he has all the cards in his hand.
Even so I would like to ask you.
you seem very sure that the christian god has reveled to you, yet you see many believers in false religions that makes the same claims as you, and you mark them as believers in a fake god, how can you be sure that you aren´t one of the believers that think that their god has reveled but they have been deceived.
@@a.39886 You're leaving out a crucial point, GOD has given us a way out. That is Jesus. Imagine you train the dog, warn the dog and used every means possible to prevent that dog from stepping on the bear trap and the dog still goes and step on it FREELY rejecting your efforts made with love. That's what we can observe today when people reject GOD's love.
The more realistic thing to add to your analogy is that we didn't place the trap and we cannot move it assuming it's there due to the actions of another dog. The bear trap would be the suffering that came along with the sinful decisions us and other people made with our own free will. GOD can't intervene with that because it would be violating our free will. Therefore, we in the case of your analogy cannot move the bear trap.
Now let's say this dog openly accepts that we love and care about it, do you think it would purposely not listen to our instructions or try it's absolute best to avoid that trap until it goes to a bigger, better eternal place of joy? That's another big thing you left out, at the end of all of that, earthly death isn't the final destination and GOD is Just. I'm going to sound very grim here and raw for a bit, but I broke my ankle once and one of the motives behind it was that I was trying to bring joy to my friends when the accident happened. The incredible pain I went through, I would gladly go through again knowing that through Christ I am saved and a great eternity awaits beyond this brief temporary life.
One more thing. Truth is objective, all these religions and world views can't all be right. The resurrection of Christ is the pillar for Christianity. I implore you to look it up. Have a great and happy life of love and prosperity. Much love.
The fact that he is outside of time is such an interesting but obvious perspective I had never thought about
Sounds like an implausible perspective that when thought about leads to contradictions.
It's also irrelevant.
@@merikijiya13you said a whole lot of nothing without any reason
@@sylent7812 reading comprehension not your thing?
if we have no free will Jesus would never have waisted time rebuking people, but the fact is, Jesus did hold people accountable
Amen!
He was the teacher at that point, giving an example for scripture...just as now thru his spirit we will be chastened when we do wrong, if we are one of Gods children.
Right. Amen.
If we had free will then God wouldn't know what we were going to do before we do it.
Imagine you writing a script for a movie and wrote all the Choices that the characters will make.
Most ppl are going to hell and God created those ppl while already Knowing that they were going to hell before they were conceived. So no matter what choices they made it was already known by God, that they would perish and burn for all eternity.
shawn wonders on rod the most common misconceptions about hell is that when one gets there they burn for eternity. That’s not true
GOD:MY WAYS ARE NOT YOUR WAYS AND MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS.
This. Thank you brother, God bless you!!
I'm here plagued by this question, then I saw your comment. Thank you, Lord. God bless you, brother!
My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts. So STOP THINKING, shut up and just follow everything I say . . . Forget all that free will nonsense (No respect intended!)
@@donluna2000 God bless you.
@@madhumanjunath0407 indeed, god has blessed me so much. I guess free will and predestination are 2 questions only God can answer. god bless you too.
This man is full of wisdom of God!
You literally debunked Calvinism which is a demonic doctrine. Thank God for this man.
No he isnt he completely contradicted himself
If God already knows I’ll have fish for breakfast tomorrow, definitely i must have fish since he for sees it ,,, freewill will be that i chose to eat a snake or lizard instead of rice,,, and God cannot be wrong,,, by not eating rice haven’t i made him wrong?
Predestination is true. Free Will is a lie!!
@@Joseph-gv3xb Yes! You need to check out what the Armenians have to say about predestination and determinism. There is a difference. This guy I feel is very openly calvinistic.
No he didn't. He is very openly calvinistic. You need to look up the difference between predestination and determinism.
LOVED the football analogy, really eye-opening. Truly everything is for the ultimate good of the Kingdom, and if your rebellion is gonna further His Kingdom then yeapp, you'll be born and live (what you think is) your life but alas, you're doing His will through your free will. Only difference is you can't change what the players do, but God can, but the ending is the same.
I try to explain this issue to my brother and he said that we are toys to God and useless because it's impossible to follow God's rules but yet he brought us without our permission.
@@krii998 it is possible to follow God’s rules, we just choose not to. And since it’s hard, out of God’s mercy he made Jesus the atonement for our sins.
And for God to ask us permission to be brought to earth/exist we have to first exist
Nope. FREE WILL is a lie. FREEDOM OF CHOICE is the truth of what the human family has been given.
@@krii998Following God is a relationship with God. The rules you refer to often people means Old Testament, the 600 laws. The new “laws” are God’s objective standard of living, that is inherently good, like forgiving your enemies and loving each other authentically. That is God’s kingdom he will set up on Earth.
@@krii998i would ask your brother what does he mean by that and how did he come to that conclusion?
I would ask your brother, how does he know we are useless?
Moreover, why would we have to give God "permission" to "buy us" ?
That is a moot weak point.
God bought us because he knew by saving us, it would benefit us. It has nothing to do with permission. Our "permission" is irrelevant.
It is us that chooses to accept his gift or reject his gift.
Foreknowledge and determinism are two different things, foreknowledge does not necessitate causation
Redimido42 Exactly
Thank u he basically testing us to see what we truly are
It's not primarily about causation. It's about the fact that anything you do from birth can't be outside of what God knows if he exists. Whether he caused it or not, you're still bound by his knowledge which is pretty much fate.
Shimiphew I find it fascinating how some people think about this. His knowledge of what will occur doesn’t mean He caused it to occur. Knowledge does not equal fate. How is it that we can grieve the Spirit? How is it that God was grieved that He made mankind?
@@MarkNOTW I didn't say he caused anything.
If I had foreknowledge of everything that would happen tomorrow nothing could happen that would contradict that foreknowledge, otherwise it wasn't foreknowledge and it would be flawed. Doesn't mean I caused that stuff to happen but it would still be restricted.
If I *knew* I was going to die tomorrow, I couldn't not die tomorrow... If I didn't die it means I would be wrong and I *didn't know* .
I'm a beliver and I've asked myself this all the time, I don't think he explained it to well for me. It's still odd.
If God is love, holy and just. Why is this still a question?
I find that many believers only believe the above to be true, rather than know this in the spirit to be true. Through conversations with many, too many are not expecting to encounter Him. It's in His revelatory tangible pressence that He rewards our seeking with "knowings". It's in His marvelous, glorious and awesome pressence that we realize that we cannot fathom Him. If the angels of Heaven are only saying, "holy, holy, holy" everytime they discover a new thing about Him, why should we expect a different reaction on our end.
Gregory, the question posed is a bad question. It is illogical and completely false. Everything is not determined because God has given power to His creation. The creation with the power it is given can execute activity within the limitations of said power. Man does not have free will man has a will and our wills are influenced by many causal forces with the primary force being our carnal nature that drives us to choosing sin. If man had free will, then man could choose not to sin but if that were true, then we wouldn't need a savior. Man will always choose sin because man was made flesh and subject to lusts of the flesh. Romans 8:20 tells us that we were made subject to vanity (worthlessness) AGAINST our will. It is no wonder that Christians are so confused because the leaders of Christianity are clueless.
@@therealgospelofchrist6823 Got a little closer with your reply thank you for it. Its still a mindbender though, something I have to really try and wrap my head around.
@@therealgospelofchrist6823 actually being made in Gods image we have the ability to not sin if we so choose but we are selfish creatures so we choose our own desires over what God desires.
@@maow9240 By your statement alone, it would seem to suggest that selfishness is a characteristic of God's image.
He’s the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. He knows what choices you’ll make in your life but allows you to make them all. Good, bad or indifferent. He wants us to choose Him, but allows us to stray. He loves us so much to let us choose.
He loves us so much yet allow us to chose evil and condemn us for it?
And just in case you tell me even though I chose evil, I can still believe in Christ and be saved from condemnation because he loved me then why would he allow me to choose not to choose him?
@@Lucas-ys8nb because he's not going to have forced love. Then it's not real love. And for there to be bad, there has to be good.
The question is; How does he know the future?
Does God looked into time and learn something or he predestined it to happened.
"We have free will"
Calvinists:*heavy breathing*😳😳😳😨😨😨
This is hilarious
Thats because Calvinism is in error and totally inconsistent with their world wide view
Haha
Read Roman's 8
Romans 9
Humans are such a confused species. If they have free will, it's not good enough because somebody else' explanation didn't "make sense" to them. On the other hand, let's say that they didn't have free will, and they would call God unjust. No matter what option they choose, people are naturally inclined to tear it down because destroying something (including themselves) has always been the easiest thing for man to do.
you make no sense
Gabrielle Kpanlin You think so. Cool man.
...Shit....that hit deep.
Gabrielle Kpanlin I agree his comment is a poor representation of the positions regarding free will. One of his statements seems to contradict itself also.
True, we are made in His image, but must also be conformed.by HIM. For whom He did foreknow He did predestine to be conformed. We must take our licking then start ticking, according to His will and not our own. Satan came to steal, kill and destroy, and he's been at it for a long time, and very smooth giving us what ever we desire in this world, where unless God opens the heart and mind of anyone, they are lost. This is why we need to study the living word. John 1:1 - 5 ((He was in the beginning and always will be, both Father Spirit and Son, and must dwell in us.))
This video popped up as I’ve been seeking understanding in this subject, thank you God
Once i was in my prayers, i asked god similar question, i got an answer something to say “ all things happen as per Gods will, but your wish will be added to that Will, nthg happens as per peoples wish” I feel this man keeps beatng round d bush.
Thank you, Dr. Frank Sir. I have learned a lot from your stuff.
Praise God for you.
Love from India.
If everything is determined than our free choice is also determined, our freedom of choice is also determined.
This one will always be hard to grasp because we have finite minds. Free will and predestination has always been a crutch in the church because people will literally leave a church or be divided by it and the funny thing is this happens even when those that cause the problems aren't even all that smart about it
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent...-.
Guys it's doesn't matter if you couldn't understand God fully. All you need to do is to put your trust in him.. He has great things in store for you.. All your doubts will be cleared in heaven.. God bless
Melvin your correct it doesn’t matter if we can’t fully understand God but it’s great fun and the most interesting and worthy topic for me to spend my time on.God bless you.
So basically what you mean is even it doesn’t add up or make sense logically you should believe it anyway
@@hkmma6543 no I don’t have blind faith that’s why I’m a Christian and not a Muslim or Jewish (Judaism) cos they follow the god of the first testament
@@hkmma6543 makes better sense than believing everything came from simply nothing
@@Iampossible376yet you think god came from nothing? There was always energy and matter in space and there were other galaxies before earth was ever formed.
Finally after years of searching and self doubt the question was answered- thank you sir so much!
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ!
John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD.
Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours!
1Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go.
If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
@@5ivepoints18 LOL- already but not yet!
Thank you for answering my questions. God Bless. :)
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ!
John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD.
Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours!
1Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go.
If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
@@dan4992 He literally answered the question. Those who have ears will hear. Just be humble and listen. He clearly answered the question.
@@tonetom1287 Jesus said he doesn't know when the Hour will come. Only GOD Knows. (Mark 13:32)
And you think that's the right answer.?!
God is responsible for the fact of freedom, humans are responsible for the acts of freedom
Great quote.
Well too bad we're NOT FREE lol
I would use the term _free will_ instead of _freedom_
@Tonya Leibach that is just an assertion, what evidence do you have for that?
@Tonya Leibach how does that passage proof that we don't have free will? Jesus knew that Peter will deny him 3 times.
How does knowing something causing something to happen. Simple answer it does not.
Having knowledge about something can't in no way cause any kind of effect.
Again please provide evidence for your assertion.
A master of misdirection. A true evangelist. Dude did NOT get his question answered, but the audience was happy.
When you listen to what he says his points are so clearly trying to hide their own flaws - he only can accomplish it because either his audience don’t actually care or they are convinced by how he talks, not what he says
Doesn’t actually explain gods choice in salvation
Considering the question was about how God and his choices set the stage for everything that goes on with our lives, the people who didn't choose to exist and have these supposed conditions laid out on us and the options we're limited to thanks to his divine plan, that was the point of interest coming from his question and Turek's answer is to direct away from it and say "well... but the football players had options, so God is actually good." As if that's how accountability works.
@@ThisguySL I'm not sure, based on that reply, if we're on the same page. I'm a believer, but I have problems with man's idea of what we are to believe. I feel that, although we are created beings with free will, free will is a byproduct of creation. God knows how we started, and how we'll end, based on our hive-like behavior, but not necessarily because of our choices. Human behavior makes our outcome inevitable. God wrote it into our DNA.
@@camc5483 I'm not a believer and I don't think you and I are in any real disagreement there. My point is free will or not, it's entirely irrelevant to whether you could adequately absolve God of the actions of people, given that according to scripture the circumstances of their lives are predicated on the choices he made that led to the creation of the world, the creation of man, and the circumstances that led to the fall that took place shortly after, let alone absolve him entirely. Which is what these arguments are designed to accomplish.
Freewill: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If you watch a clip of a football game, it is always going to end the same. This is a constraint.
When we play the game, there isn’t constraint. God has the game clip sure, but we are the ones playing the game.
Hope I made you reminiscence this comment you made three years ago lol.
A great way to describe free will, time and God’s perspective is with a video game analogy. For example, say Mass Effect, an open world RPG action game. You have tons of choices and can do almost anything, but there are certain key plot points/cinematics that happen along the way, and you can make good guy, neutral or bad guy choices at these moments. The end result is that things still conclude how the story needed to unfold, and your choices (good, neutral, bad) all lead to these key moments. You have free will, but they all line up with God’s plan, or rather, your choices are used to supplement the plan. Your reputation or, soul, is between yourself and the story, plan, or God in this metaphor.
I also view God’s perspective like how we have a video game disc (moreso 10 years ago). God is outside of time, much like how we are outside the disc. Everything that did, will or can happen is contained on the disc, and the story is woven based on choices through time and already have scripts with chain events that lead to results. We know the story and can see it played out (especially if you’re a PC guy and can look at the files on the disc). It’s all at once inside time and outside of time. What matters is our individual choices and our relationship with God, i.e., the developer/creator.
There is NO such thing as free will. Free will is a human illusion created by man to stop God from being God so that man can become god. Choices are subject to boundaries, limits, rules, and laws and while many of those boundaries, limits, rules, and laws can be broken, they are not without consequence. In your video game analogy, you failed to mention that the video game designer programs the game to be played a certain way. It cannot be played in way that is outside of the way that it was programmed to be played (boundaries and limits). You certainly can exercise some independence of your own will within those boundaries and limits but it is not free. Let me provide an example... I have a 5 year old daughter and she lives in my house. She has things that I have given her... a bed, toys, etc. She also has access to the television, a trampoline, food, water, etc. Within the boundaries and limits that I've set, she can exercise some independence of her own will by going to her room to play with her toys or getting in her bed to take a nap. However, if I take her toys away or remove the TV from her room, she no longer has access to them to exercise anything. Does my 5 year daughter have free will? No, she doesn't... her will is subject to the boundaries, limits, and rules that I establish for her. Can she break some of them, sure she can but she will be subject to my consequences. There is no logical rational person that would support or advocate for a 5 year old being able to exercise any freedom in obeying my commands. Children are expected to obey their parents so the idea of free will is not even noble one. Free will is nothing but complete lawlessness... Bottom line is that you and I have a WILL but it is not free... We exercise our wills in a system that is inundated with boundaries, limits, rules, and laws in which we must learn to practice good judgment or suffer the consequences.
I agree yall kinda said the same thing the original was an analogy I like using comic books but its essentially the same as the video game exaple the most nd god is like stan lee alotta ways for the story to change but it all leads to superman saving the day fully determined the guy who commented went into the details of superman can fo kiss Lowis but if he gotta fight brainiac next pannel it dont matter what else was happening before he was always gonna have to fight at whatever determined moment that was
@@therealgospelofchrist6823 best free will definition I've ever heard
@@jeremyhart557 👌
The Real Gospel of Christ perfectly stated. Well done
No, the players do NOT have free will. This is because of the outcome already being determined. If the score finishes 24-23 in favor of the blue team, it doesn’t matter what plays the other team runs or what scenario’s you put the red team in, they do not have the choice to score 24 or more points.
Being able to run whatever plays they decide is not free choice because they cannot change the outcome of the game. So in the end no one on the field has any choice.
It is the same with this god. If I’m damned to hell from the get go, and these events are playing out as if recorded on TV, then I do not have the choice to not be damned. Somewhere along the line I have to do something to caused me to be damned.
That is not free will.
Kyle Beggs thank you lol this guy was talking about T.V and a football game! What a dick
Here’s my random questions about free will:
- Can you think of any decision that you’ve made that was not based on your previous experience and knowledge you have?
- Let’s assume all decisions are made based on your previous experience and knowledge. What constitutes free will in this case?
- Let’s assume that there are some decisions that are not based on your previous experience and knowledge. Does it mean that such decisions does not have a cause? If no, what causes them?
- Should there always be some input for any change of mind? If yes, what constitutes free will in this case?
To piggy back on that here is another way to look at it.
Look at any choice we have ever made. Lets say we could go back in time right before we make that choice and not know we made that choice before. Would we always make the same choice not knowing that we made it before? If the answer is yes we don't have free will.
@@davelanger Are we assuming that we take all our experience (we gained after the moment) with us to that moment? That will likely change the choice. Our personalities change over time, based on what we experience and how perceive or learn from those experiences.
@@benhof2140 So that is determinism. Thanks for proving my point.
@@davelanger That's assuming that not only our experiences are determined but also our personal perceptions of them.
@@benhof2140 still determism
This guy has an uncanny knack for answering questions without answering them
He was even more stumped when asked the guy who posed the question “does that make sense” and he answered “yea.. kinda” lol
@@kevindavisjunior it makes perfect sense. But i don't agree with it.
That absolutely blew my mind!! Perfectly describes what all knowing mean! WOW!!
exactly
Its a horrible analogy.
The players in the taped game dont make a choice when you watch the reply. They only made choices in the past.that analogy would only make sense if you could watch the recorded game BEFORE the game took place.
And P.S. - the players never had free will regardless of the analogy. If a player is playing than he is playing to win. He has no will in the matter. And if he plays to win, than if the ball is flying his way, he cant chose not to try and catch it. And if he caught the ball, he can not chose not to run toward the endzone or whatever tactic he deems beat at the moment.
@@adarwinterdror7245, hallo. Do you willingly believe in God?
@@sharonr2121 will has nothing to do with what we believe. We dont chose what to believe.
Either we are convinced by the details and arguments we heard, or we're not.
Adar Winter Dror, do you not?
I can't believe anyone actually accepts this absurd answer.
It's quite simple. In the same way that one event naturally flows from another, the things that we do naturally flow from our will. Viewing time outside of It's flow or knowing everything that will happen, those things we choose to do are fully known by God. Yes, we choose what we do and how we respond from moment to moment, but because we are who we are we wouldn't have made any other choice or done any other thing. Consider what it means to make a choice. There are surrounding events and circumstances; there are your rationality and impulse; and there are your conclusions and actions. This is not complete but it's functional for this purpose. Whatever decision is made is made by your free will, and yet the factors involved in that decision were predetermined and, because the nature of your free will is known by God, the outcome is determinable. This is hard to grasp for a lot of reasons, but it's important to recognize that nothing in our system of analyzing and understand our universe is fully deterministic and we experience time as part of it's flow. It's like trying to visualize a 4th dimension. We just aren't built to understand it beyond abstract conceptualization
@@aidanmays7825 You said: "In the same way that one event naturally flows from another, the things that we do naturally flow from our will." and: "because we are who we are we wouldn't have made any other choice or done any other thing" and: "Whatever decision is made is made by your free will, and yet the factors involved in that decision were predetermined". You're describing simple determinism, yet you think there's free will in there somewhere. Perhaps you have a different definition of free will than I do. How would you define "free will"?
@@rosscarlson3701 Determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive. You are conscious, you experience, and you enact your will in everything that you do or do not do. When you look back on what you did yesterday it is fixed, and tomorrow when you look back on the things you will do today they too will be fixed. This does not negate that you freely chose to do those things. The scope of human understanding is quite limited here so at the end of the day these realizations are not that useful
@@aidanmays7825 They are mutually exclusive, at least per the common definition(s) that I've encountered. So I ask again, how do you define free will?
@@rosscarlson3701 You're only viewing this through the narrow definitions of incompatibilism. There's a famous quote from Schopenhauer that puts it quite well: "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."
None of this is as black and white as you think it is, mainly because we barely even have a surface level understanding behind the mechanics of critical elements of this discussion; namely, time and consciousness.
Here are the things that are determined at birth, and beyond your control. That you were born, your sex, your parents, your DNA, your looks, your intelligence, your physique, your culture, your country, your religion. Some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Others in the depths of poverty, and abuse. Some people have it hard and others not. We do not have a level playing field. Thanks God. Give us freewill, but not an even start.
Dude disproved himself within a matter of two lines, lol.
Isn’t it so awesome that we serve such a wise and incredible God. These questions that may baffle us is just common knowledge to God, like us tying our shoes.
There's nothing wise about the God you follow he's all knowing he creates the devil he knows he's going to manipulate humans and then sends the humans to Hell anyway he creates rapist serial killers and murderers who he knows full well those people are going to traumatise victims and if the victims can't forgive the abuses they go to hell they join the abusers in hell although if the abuses are able to truly repent they go to heaven so the victim still ends up in hell if they can't forgive nothing is wise about that all god is doing is enabling everyone suffering and everyone thanks him for it everyone sing songs in his name while people are being tortured and murdered he is not wise he is a cruel demanding and is all knowing so if he deliberately put a child in a situation where they get raped why should he expect that child to forgive the abuser and if that kid doesn't doesn't have the emotional strength even though for some reason Christians think it's a choice to forgive if that kid didn't have the emotional strength he Burns forever in a fire guess what though I'm that kid that gets to burn forever and a fire because I can't forgive the person who god knowingly created with full knowledge of what was going to happen and he wants me to praise him how do I praise and thank a god that enabled my suffering why should I thank him for that I'm a miserable mess that sick of existing I never asked for any of this and now I have to spend forever micro managing my thoughts and feeling so I don't end up in a furnace forever god definitely isn't wise is a control freak everything has to be his way 100-percent and if you don't agree with that you get sent to hell
@@epicmonkey6663 So in your FINITE brain you think you can know what and why God allows and disallows ? I am so sorry that very bad things happened to you, and bad things happen to people all the time, BUT that does not nor ever will make it OK to question the God that created you and knew your name before he set the limits of the universe. This world belongs to satan and we are just passing thru it, but please, please, please, God knows your pain and anguish and wants to heal you and make you whole again. I promise if you just go somewhere private and humble yourself before Him and ask him to reveal himself to you He will. He will do in such a way that it will be the most private and personal thing you have ever experienced. God sacrificed His son so that we may be saved, he knows the evil that is here and what it does, he wants you to call on him. God is NOT this thing that just sits back and laughs at us, he feels for you and wants so desperately to be a part of your life. He loves you so much that he does not force anyone to worship him. Maybe bad things happened to you so that you would one day write this to me and I would be responding back to you. Who knows. Please hit me up if you would like to talk further. I love you brother.
@@armedprophet3321 he doesn't Force anyone to worship him but the consequences is eternal burning in a fire it's the default punishment for everything that god doesn't like it's either comply or burn in a fire forever there's no choice in the matter I don't even 100-percent know if this being even exist it drives me insane should I just pretend and imagining this being existing just so in case they are real don't burn forever Christians always talk of a relationship but is it just one-sided where you talk and get nothing back that's all I ever get from God in truth I don't even know what being humble means to be fair but if it's to be calm rational and thinking clearly that's practically impossible for me I have ADHD which comes with hyperactivity racing thoughts of lack of ability to concentrate consistently I have borderline personality disorder which makes me feel like a walking inconsistency I have autism as well all these things making me struggle consistently in day to day life on top of my emotional pain all I ever get is silence from this god no answers no nothing I'm just left confused in the dark should I just take this as a sign to live my life until he announces his presence to me because I am fed up I was fed up yesterday and I was adamant that I was done and now today I'm back at it again trying to confirm or deny his existence by always either leads me to Nowhere or people repeating bible verses I already know and if the world belongs to say and why is he going to lock him away for 1000 years and then 3 him again at a later date to cause more suffering? And also why did God Harden pharaohs heart sure the Pharaoh was technically doing that himself as well but God is essentially pushing him towards destruction at that point when he could probably also soften his heart as well and what is God's definition of protection because nobody seems protected by anything in this world
@@epicmonkey6663 Humbling simply means to recognize that he is God and is your creator, from what you are saying it seems like you are trying to hard to believe. I don’t really call prayer praying, what I mean by that is I have have conversations with God. I tell him how much I love him, I praise him and thank him for everything ( good and bad ) we don’t know the outcome of our really anything and only he does so what may seem bad is really good in the long run. I tell him how my day is going and always ask him to continue to reveal himself to me (and He does). I cast all my worries and concerns on him and let him deal with it. Finally I thank him that he sent his Son to suffer, die and then be raised 3 days later for me. I also thank him for his mercy, grace and love. My number one request is to always serve him and spread his word and love. In fact I was praying today while driving to take care of something and asked him to allow me to continue to serve him...........then you left this message. If you honestly seek God and reach out to him He will always answer. ALWAYS.
@@armedprophet3321 I'm one of those people that wouldn't necessarily say they believe that he exists but I'm paranoid of his existence and Christians constantly say to seek him out and you will find and admittedly there are things that are a little suspicious that further extend my paranoia of this beings existence like the people that freak out in baptism videos I will try and get one myself to see if I could experience whatever it is they're going through but in this Corona world that's impossible another reason I would be damned to hell along with not being able to forgive and is praising and thanking god requirement? Because at the moment I honestly genuinely couldn't do that and I know God doesn't like liars so I wouldn't want to lie the only thing I could genuinely be thankful for is for the actual sacrifice itself if I was absolutely sure of his existence but I couldn't say thank you in every single comment section a lot of Christians do another thing as well I know that god doesn't like fits of anger so I'd be asking for forgiveness for that at least five times a day I genuinely just cannot manage
I find that a lot of people on both sides of the debate conflate pre-knowledge with determinism. God knowing what you will chose to do in the future is not the same as him making you do it.
Sure if he leave out the part that he himself created us knowing what we will do. That is the main part of the problem. I may know that if a person will die if they fall off a building. If I know with upmost certainty that person will be pushed off a building when I created him then I simply created a person that will die regardless of free will. That is the problem.
The LORD works out everything to its proper end- even the wicked for a day of disaster. -Proverbs 16: 4
If judas Iscariot was acting on free will when he betrayed & sold jesus, he somehow played a crucial role in our salvation. If he was predestined by God to betray jesus, he clearly didn't have free will. In both cases, he's partly responsible for our salvation & that exonerates him of any blame, but believers still blame & criticize him till this very day. The free will excuse just doesn't stand.
Love to see this video, thank you so much Frank. Jesus bless you.
How come no one has asked Turek about whether he believes God is always in control? And how free will works with in it?
How do you know they haven’t? Aside from that presumption, “in control” can mean setting boundaries and directing a minimum selection of necessary actions, or it can mean micromanaging. Which do you think is true, and why?
God is in control not mankind
The fact that God knows all of our decisions and choices we will make through out our life and where they will eventually lead us, it doesn't mean that are predetermined. They are all still by our free will and not programmed by God, it's like he has already seen the ending of our movie but we are the ones who have written the scenario.
That’s not predestination. That’s FOREKNOWLEDGE.
But he created everything so it is predestination
If you knew your son would die by age 6 would continue his birth
This is the one simple question I wanted an answer to. Thank you. I want to pick up that book. Frank if you read this comment can you let me know so I can ask 1 more question, I'm very close to finally believing and feeling it in my heart.
This is great! I am praying for you. I was blessed to never struggle with these questions when I was not a believer ..... I simply didn't care about GOD or Christianity or anything else for that fact haha ...... There will always be deep questions for our finite minds but I have learned since being born again that the LORD will open us up to an understanding that a nonbeliever, like I once was, will never know. GOD bless and keep on seeking CHRIST while HE may be found.
Faith is trusting the best explanation of the evidence when you don’t have proof sitting there staring you in the face. It’s ok to make a decision without having every last question answered. But I wonder what your final question is. I hope you’ve gotten an answer.
I would encourage you to read a small book called...how good is good enough byandy stanley. It clarified many things for me in my struggle of understanding. About a 1 and a half hour red.
@@JamesW225 please research Andy Stanley before you recommend anyone to him.
@@ajlancaster7316
Can you give me an overview why on your advice? I work a lot. I don't have any time to do research, let alone barely any personal time for things i need to do
If anyone goes to hell it's not God s fault
@kcuf7 Yet God knows who would and who wouldn't repent. How is that free will? That means choice is only an illusion. What you choose doesn't matter, because it will go towards what God KNOWS would happen.
Lol
kcuf7 God knows everything. He knows how to make Atheists believe. He does not do anything to make Atheists believe. Atheists go to hell. They had free will. The fact that your god allows people to go to hell means that either
1. Your God is not omnipotent and can do everything - hence why he did not do anything to make Atheists believe
2. Not Omniscient and knows the future and every outcome
3. Not all loving and lets people burn in hell because he does not love everyone
That is the undeniable. YOUR god is at least 1 of those. OR he just does not exist at all and free will is an illusion.
Eric Mago but he gave them a choice to believe, they chose not to listen, he has given warnings several times to repent and believe, if you don’t, he did warn you. It’s your punishment, think of love, love is letting someone choose what they want, would it be loving if we were mindless robots? To serve him unwillingly? I doubt it, so he gave us a choice BECAUSE he loves us.
@@ericmago4110 there are many things God can't do.
Scripture says a man's heart plans his way but the Lord directs his steps. Meaning people choose the way they will go and God determines the course to get there.
It’s complicated for us to comprehend but a Being that created our complex works has made it a just existence for us to freely be who we choose to be and not what He wants us to be
Everything is Determined and we do have
Free Will.Our Lord Jesus is Almighty and
Powerful.God always was,is,and always
will be.This is the Concept of God.Have
Faith,Hope,Love and Trust in Our Lord
Jesus.
That's exactly right , everyone wants to put themselves and God on the same level , their eyes are closed , all we can do is pray for them brother.
do you not realise how that is completely illogical?
It is not illogical.What is illogical is the Logicality of illogicality.
@@colinmccarthy7921 yes you have absolutely no idea what you are saying ok
"Everything is Determined and we do have free will." How in the world does one have free will if everything you will do is already determined before you are even born/conscious!? This is some asinine mental gymnastics. In a universe where the all powerful, all present, all knowing Judeo Christian god exist, free will is incompatible.
Answer me this, is god all knowing and all powerful?
Is it possible to contradict, or do different from what god knows you’re going to do?
“God knows the end from the beginning”.
Uuh so before you even existed god already knew what’s going to happen throughout your entire life?
Can someone do otherwise from gods knowledge? You didn’t even have consciousness he already knew all your actions, someone like Stephen Hawking would “choose” not to believe Christ and eventually die and be judge to hell and suffer for all eternity. Did Stephen Hawking or all the people that reject Christianity have will before they were born?
Ooh yeah, you weren’t even born god knows everything, all choices you will make, he knows the end from the beginning of the Universe, yeah and you have free will, yeah makes total sense sooooo clear. Slow clap.
As a Muslim I am amazed how well the speaker answered this question on free will and everything being known to God.
If a man, let's call him Dave, won the lottery with a lottery ticket he bought for the very first lottery draw held in England, and God foresaw that this would happen before Dave was even created, could dave have then chosen not to buy that first lottery ticket?
@@Yossarian. ye he could have chose not to buy that ticket but then god would not have foreseen him buying it
God knows what you are going to do he doesn't force u to do it. If the argument is God knows you are going to choose option B could you choose option A, yes but then God would have known you would have chose option A, but you didn't choose option A you chose B and that why God knows you chose B, but it's still your choice.
@Exodia Dust
So does Dave have the choice to trick god by suddenly not buying the ticket?
@@Yossarian. silly the choice that you make is the choice god knows you are gonna make 😂 “Dave trying to go against what God knows” is useless because his choices are the independent variable and God’s knowledge is the dependent
@@exodiadust7223
Gods knowledge is dependent on what?
For the longest time, I was told by my church pastors and fellow Christian friends that the only reason God allows evil in this world is because he gave mankind free will. However, recently I began to think, if God cares so much about free will and yet he is also perfect and holy, what's the point of making the people He knows are going to reject him or even commit atrocities?
My question to people that believe God gives free will is this: Is God obligated to create each and every human being who has or who will ever live? If so, wouldn't he not be all powerful and sovereign if he must be obliged to create you and me? Therefore, God must create us by his own volition, which means he could have made a better world, he could have decided to not create human beings that would commit atrocities or create those who would become unbelievers, sending them to hell (essentially, he could have chosen another way to create life on earth.)
He can’t force people not to sin, so them going to hell has nothing to do with him. Him knowing they will go to hell shouldn’t be a reason for them not to created… those chose to go to hell, they deserve that punishment (btw I don’t believe hell is eternal, but equal length to their sin). God isn’t obligated to do anything, he manages everything in the world just because he loves us. Him not creating people who would go to hell would bring unbalance the world, of course which God would know, he sustains everything that exists.
This guy is truly a snake-oil salesman and anyone falling for his football analogy is quite frankly, a bit simpleminded.
It's probably the worst analogy I have heard, it baffled me when someone first used it to argue with me
Quite an accusation, accusing someone of purposely lying. Care to explain how you came to that conclusion?
Also, how is that a bad analogy. I thought it was pretty sound.
Why’s it bad. Knowing the outcome of a game doesn’t mean they don’t have free will
@@rockyp32
You can't have free will, if every thought and action is predetermined.
@@fridolin3373 he just knows the outcone
Frank is the only person to me who can answer questions with such a great answer. The Holy Spirit is working through you Frank, God bless you.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent..-.
If God already knows the outcome of every event, then of what use is praying to God for anything?
Damn straight. Atheism > god.
Well because, while He knows whether you will pray to Him or not, He will not do anything until you pray to Him and show your faith. For instance, let's say your mother has cancer and you want to pray to God to save her from cancer. God will only save her if you take the action to pray for her. Thus, he waits until you have prayed for her to be saved to actually save her. So while he knows He will save her, He will only save her because you prayed to him, thus he will wait for you to pray to Him.
@@antoniowolf4377 Yeeeahhh, I'm fairly certain God hasn't saved anybody with cancer (and we all know 90% of all cancer patients have someone on their side praying for them), but that could just be me saying stuff.
Makes him feel good about it.
@@inertiaforce7846 NOTHING IS GREATER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!!!!!
It's far more than that God knew what people were going to decide and yet they still have free will; it's that God ordained all that comes to pass and yet our choices are still our own. God ordains who will and who will not be with him for all of eternity, and yet all those who will not remain culpable.
He talks like a lawyer. Very professional! God is good!
One of the finest answer for this question , great
this guy is unbelievable
There's a difference between foreknowledge and knowledge. You can foresee the outcome of a magic trick you've seen before, but it doesn't mean you understand said trick. Determinism is more about the implications of knowledge's existence irrespective of one's possession of that knowledge. No one is arguing that you possessing that knowledge means you somehow have inserted yourself into that rigid cause-and-effect explanation. It just means you can understand what you may have already foreseen coming by having already witnessed it beforehand.
Who told you you had free will?
You have will and it’s not free.
This debunks Calvinist, thank you Frank!!
Calvinists are prideful arrogant boastful people who fail hard at pretending to be humble.
@@The3Stooges Isn’t it prideful to lump people together and judge them like that?
The argument falls apart when the fact that God created people knowing what choices they make comes up. He created them that way in his omniscience and omnipotence. Its perfectly reasonable for a non-creator and omniscient beings knowledge of the outcomes to not affect free will. However, if an omniscient God created beings knowing every choice they will make, then he must have created these beings to make these choices - he is both omniscient and omnipotent (and omnipresent as well. The speaker fails to account for this problem and just skirts around it.
Fail.
I don’t think that is correct. That isn’t free will. I personally believe that we do have free will and there is endless possibilities and choices that we make. It is just that God knows all of the choices and they all still lead to revelations because his plan is just so great
@temporarysanity Again, his plan is so great that all possible options lead to key moments. Jesus fulfilled those prophesies because he knew what to do to complete them and how they lead up to them. Revelations is essentially prophesy, but it just means all possible options still lead to key moments. Again if this how he says it then there is no free will. God knows all the possible choices we can make and all of them still lead to his desired outcome and fulfillment of his prophesies.
@@robodaviking2209 If god knows you are going to do choice A for example before you even do it, are you able to go against gods will and do another choice?
davelanger That is not what I am saying. God knows all the possible choices you could make like a, b, c etc.while there might be something you are more likely to choose it doesn’t mean you have to take that choice. The point of this is that God is still giving you the chance to join him and you aren’t predestined to go to heaven or hell. His plan though is so great and he is so all knowing that he even with all of our individual choices that we can make that his prophesy and will still happens.
@@robodaviking2209 Yes we are predestined to go to heaven or hell. The bible even says that, you really need to read your own bible.
davelanger I didn’t say that we have a choice to go to stay here or something. We all will go to heaven or hell but it is our choice on where we get to go by choosing to believe or not determines if you go to heaven or hell.
Freewill means that you are free to choose and make a choice of which way you want to live but you’re not free to live as you want to
With all due respect, the logic here is deeply flawed to say the least. If an apparent 'god' really knows how something is going to turn out from beginning to the end and he knows the choices a person would make, that in itself is a predetermined notion. Unlike the football game, where the players have already played their game and the guy gets to know about said game only after it has occured, it in no way justifies having any pre-deterministic value. You can't just pick and choose if God exists within the fabric of time or outside of it, based on what suits your narrative.
I have a personal theory about this topic that may help. Our lives are led by the choices that we make. But before making those choices we have options. God knows all the possible versions of your life it is all foreseen. God knows that this wouldve been you if you chose or did not choose this. BUT among those many outcomes of our lives it is our choice whether to trust god's direction for our life or trust in ourselves, or trust in horoscopes etc. We have freedom in what we choose. God will not force you to choose him. But he sees your heart before you make a choice therefore he knows what youre about to choose.
@@daintymarie5271 I think it makes sense. I actually believe in God and over the past weeks i've been getting a lot closer to Him but the single thing that bothers me is why would He create people that didnt choose him, and then punish them for eternity. Maybe those people just didnt wanna exist at all, why not just accept they didnt choose God and just erase them from existence instead of hell for eternity. Im not trying to argue or anything, but I am very open to understand this cus this is really getting in my way and confuses me.
@@teoteodora7676 well I understand you. That baffled me now too to be honest hahaha. But this thought came into my mind, this is just my opinion lol, not from any church or apologist, i just thought of it now. Creating a person who chooses you is just umm, not justifiable. Imagine you're God, and you created people that has no freedom to live however they want, they are only bound to choose god and live a god centered life. As humans we think that's how it should be it makes more sense so that no people would burn in hell. But putting yourself in the shoes of God, he is a loving God not a demanding one. So he created humans, showered them with blessing and everything else they needed (sun, earth, ocygen, food, etc.) cause God loves his creation. However we have the freedom to think for our own so it is a choice for us every day, every minute and second to choose God or to make ourselves God's of our own lives. A.K.A separation from God, A.K.A sin. So since God hates sin or rebellion against him, he offers grace and mercy for people throughout our entire lives to repent and choose him, but for those who stay in their pride till they die, then they chose to be separated from God, and God's anger will be showered there in hell cause here on earth he showers mercy & grace.
@@daintymarie5271 Yes i understand that and it makes sense. But what i dont understand is why would they suffer for eternity? Thats like a lot, and its very hard to imagine someone who will go thru torture forever, non stop. My question is why wouldnt God simply erase from existance those people after they chose not to follow Him. I choose Him and I want to go to heaven and be in his presence but why not just make those who dont want that dissapear, ceasing to exist. I get why unbelievers exists, but after they existed and decided they dont want to follow God they just vanish forever. Im so confused i really wanna understand that
@@teoteodora7676 ive thought about this too. God did say he will make a new heaven and earth. the future is still very mysterious. anything could happen i mean only God knows if he'll keep souls in hell for eternity.
awesome explanation
praise God
Frank misunderstood the question. His analogy and reasoning is not sensible
I'm a mechanic, and I warned you the brakes in your car need fixing. You chose to ignore me, and drive crash and burn. But I love you
TERRIFIC ANALOGY DR TUREK! Love it.
Absolutely genius lol
Not really, the audience member doesn’t orchestrate the conditions that will influence how the NFL players end up performing.
Audience member = bystander
God = intrinsically involved
L Groot exactly
+L Groot you miss point. God doesn't control the actions of humans any more than the questioner controls the NFL players. Did you really miss the point of the analogy? Or are you a determinist? Frank rejects strong Calvinism as demonstrably false.
Uber Genie oh I got the point of the analogy, it simply doesn’t hold up under close scrutiny.
Audience member and God aren’t even remotely similar.
When the audience member is picking the players, deciding what the the playing conditions are going to be, choosing the tactics, knows and influences who the opposition is going to be before the draw and exactly how they will perform etc.
Then they are in the same realm.
like a houseparty with the sign "All welcome" but when you go inside theres another sign which says "invited only"
As a Christian...the question of Predestination is the most difficult one i face in my life...I still am perplexed by it.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent.c
Let me give you some insight from something that's can be found in Christianity, but is from something outside of Christianity. Very outside of Christianity. So much so it involves two mythologies in a videogame (God of War: Ragnorak). "You are the sum of your choices. Nothing more." We choose who we want to be, but God knows our choices so He knows who we will be
@@Sheenifier that's determinism not free will
That analogy was perfect. This is a man who's been thinking.
What a great answer!!! Heard this years ago have been looking for this video for ages. Thankyou Holy Spirit for leading me here
Wait can somebody help me out? I really liked the analogy Frank gave, but I don't see how that can explain this question about God. Sure we can watch the game knowing the results, and the players would still have free will playing the game. But we did not determine the moves made by the players. God not only knows the results, himself *determined* each and every move of the players. So it indeed seems like the players would be the puppets of God. So how do the players still truly have their own choice, if their choice was pre-determined by God? Any help is appreciated.
I have no idea. I think Frank just wanted to get as close as possible to the correct answers. But ultimately nobody knows how free will and God's sovereignty really cooperate.
The Bible does give us indications that there is both free will and some predetermined plan that God has in place. I tend to lean more toward the free will side, but I can’t rule out all ideas of predetermination. My dad is a pastor, and the way that I have heard him explain it is that there are two ditches in the road. If you stray too far on either side, then you end up in the ditch. Instead, we need to find balance between the two and allow for the possibility of both.
I think that a Frank Turek’s point in the video was to say that just because God knows something will happen, that does not necessarily mean that God predetermined it to happen. Knowledge of an action does not take away the free will of that action.
I hope that this could help some. God bless.
Shalom
Peace be to you.
We have no free will. Period.
Hello Everyone, I think we are saying we don't have free will, to justify what we are doing and not take any blame, but what we have to understand is, it is us who get the pleasure when doing something God calls sin not God, And I believe it's good to ask more questions because we will get more answers but people doesn't have all the answers, only God does so if we truly want an answer, we could ask him by praying and he will answer to us , as our mind could comprehend. And I have one question for you, many people say they don't believe God exist because, if God exists why is there evil,injustice....... but you got to ask yourself, if you die some day and stand infront of God, and if he gave you the answer to all of your questions until your satisfied with the answer, is that question worth going to hell for. And I can see many questions about judgment day, God doesn't want to judge us. infact he did everthing in his power not to punishment us, by laying all of our punishment on his son Jesus christ. Nowwe Can put our punishment on Jesus or take the punishment ourselves. Althought God can do all things he will not bypass our will and force us not to take the punishment. God didn't promise us, a perfect world but he promised us he will always be with us and give us internal peace, fredom from sin and true happiness.
I am not writing this because I know more or because I am righteous but because I think it's good to share my opinion and belief,
Have a Great Day everyone
If I tell you there’s a fire-breathing dragon that lives in my garage, you will ask me to show you. But my response is “I forgot to say that it’s an invisible dragon”. "OK” you say “No problem - we’ll sprinkle flour over the floor so that it will leave footprints”. “Good idea” say I, “but I should have mentioned that the invisible dragon hovers a few feet off the ground”. “No sweat” you say “We’ll mount sensors to detect the heat from its fiery breath”. “Good idea” say you, “but I forgot to say that the fiery breath is in fact heatless”. And so on, with me always coming up with reasons why you can’t carry out any tests.
Now, the point is - just what is the difference between an invisible, floating dragon that breathes heatless fire and cannot be detected by any means, and nothing at all? The moment anyone proposes an untestable thing, the onus of proof is upon them to show that what they propose is different from nothing.
There is no difference
Neither exists. If you are trying to compare God to this make believe dragon, then you are making a category error.
God actually exists, has acted and spoken in time in a way that is intelligible to humanity, and has left you without excuse for denying him, your make believe dragon has done and is none of those things ;)
@@JQHNDi You're right. There is no difference at all. Your story book is a part of your claim, not evidence of it.
@@childboo2450 you missed my point. The point was that the experiment was not an accurate representation of what God has revealed of himself through nature or his word... I never suggested to give you evidence, evidence goes to the judge, not to the guilty sinner who is on trial (you).
@@childboo2450
But there is plenty of evidence of the story book..... So your argument fails.
Again this frank turek is brilliant with gods wisdom
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ!
John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD.
Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours!
1Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go.
If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
@@5ivepoints18 hey Homey u Athiest before I answer
@@5ivepoints18 are u a wretched sinner
Many fame speaker make the answer more complicate than the question. They explained bla bla bla quoting many verse in the Bible then the questioners become more confused.
I never got satisfy answer how great the speaker is about this question.
But your answer make sense. You simplified the answer in easy way and make us to digest. Thank-you sir.
I've heard Dr Turek explain this concept before but this is the best video clip with a bit more detail that makes it crystal clear.
This is beautiful! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.
Frank is a true messenger of the Lord. I hope I can enter the kingdom of God when my time on earth is done.
That's a insane analogy. If you record the game and watch it, you are just a bystander.. You didn't create those players, but God created us according to Bible. So, God predestined everything on how our life is going to progress. THERE IS NO FREE WILL. if I don't believe in God, that's because either there is no God or he didn't care to reveal himself or he created me in such a way. So we are not responsible for our actions.
+Vivek Naren God doesn't predestine men's actions. There is no Biblical justification for that position. If we aren't free then we are not sinners either since we didn't choose to sin but were forced by God to sin and then condemned to death for actions of which we had no control. GOd becomes the biggest tyrant in existence if your view is correct. He is responsible for all evil and all sin. There is the word predestine in scripture but applies to God's reforming work in redeeming us as we freely choose to follow and trust Jesus as our savior. Not puppet strings needed.
Uber Genie two massive assumptions in citing biblical writings to determine Gods attitude towards free will.
1. The bible may not be accurately conveying his intent on this matter
2. He lied/ omitted important details when divulging his freewill message
Best explanation I’ve ever heard! I’ve been saying this very same thing! But not payed out as beautifully. I always said it’s a perspective thing. From our perspective we have free will but from God’s perspective He knows the outcome. If God is Love, then by definition you can’t have love without freewill.
The only thing we love is our sin.
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TRULY FREE WILL & CHOSE CHRIST JESUS ON YOUR OWN....EXPLAIN THIS PLZ!
John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
You see Jesus came to the Jews & they did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him became children of God. Now how were these people "born as children of God"? It was not by blood, like how Jewish people are born Jews, nor of their own fleshly WILL nor the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD.
Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2:1-10: We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin, able to do nothing just like dead people can do nothing to help themselves. BUT GOD loved us so much that even while in this state of deadness HE MADE US ALIVE together with Christ in order that He might show His surpassing grace. God graciously SAVED YOU not as a result of your works, so you have nothing to boast about. Your faith did not originate in yourselves, it was a GIFT OF GOD! For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not even our good works are ours!
1Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." You see it wasn't his own vain laboring that got him to where he was, it was God's grace carrying him along to where God wanted him to go.
If this is a question you struggle with please seek out John Piper's books on this topic. Our wills are trapped, enslaved & dead in sin & trespasses, unable freely choose God. Choosing God would be pleasing to God & the bible says we are unable to please God in our flesh. But God, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, to fulfill HIS PROMISES to Abraham & the new covenant, chooses a remnant to redeem & they were given to Christ by God (John 6:39 & John 10:29)
But how can God interact with the world and us still have free will? If he helps a seeker to find Him, wouldn’t that be a violation of free will?
Grace is a present from God wrapped up and ready to be opened by us. Jesus dying and paying for our sins is the gift he gives us. But a present is useless unless you open it. God can’t force us to open a present. If he forced us to love him it wouldn’t be love. Love must be freely given. So if God makes sure I get to heaven no matter what then I don’t have the free choice and will to choose to live him.
God already knows who will be saved because he knows the future. He prepare a house in heaven for us but it’s only for those he knows will be saved.
Any scripture you read and think it means a Calvinism view is because you are misinterpreting the scripture.
This one fact proves my view…”Love is a free will choice. If I’m forced by Gods will to love him so I may be saved it’s not real love”
vInteresting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent.
@@yegorshalamai6716the very fact that you know the outcome of the game means that no other choices could have been made, thus eliminating the concept of free will because no other actions could have happened. if God intervened and made a change to the game then there would be two options for what happened , either way , it was predetermined already.
you cannot have a free will in this context , and if protestants were honest they would be calvinists and not claim free will as a salient option
Thats the best explanation ive heard so far
I am once again begging Christians to learn how anologies work.
Really great answers; even answered the logical next question w/o it being asked. 👏🏻
But he doesn’t answer it at all, he just skirts around it.
Oh I’ve always struggled with this question. I’ve always framed it that God knows every single possible decision that we as human beings can make in an infinite universes existing simultaneously such that the outcomes are already known. That God has preordained path’s, the a golden path, that is aligned with his will that leads to God, and each decision we make is a decision that either aligns with his golden path or strays away from it. The paths of the decisions exist and God knows the out comes but it’s still personal choice.
It bothers me to think that some would be called to God and others not. I guess With how I’m framing it it I view God’s omniscience and our free will like a HUGE complex maze like we are mice and God knows all the twists and turns that can be made. The maze ends in two options a big piece of cheese at one end, and the other end a rotten cheese in a mouse trap. At the beginning p, the start of the maze, the rotten cheese is the only cheese the mice smell. Every step and every turn the mice makes in the maze is a decision that leads us to the end (death). That maybe at the beginning of the maze the cheese as we the mice wonder through wondering what knowing that a cheese is at the end. Then at some point along the maze the good choose is revealed. Presenting a new smell. Now all mice can smell the two different cheeses. Some continue to follow the path that leads to the rotten cheese because that is what they know and they don’t trust the smell of the good cheese. And those that that ultimately choose to trust the smell of the good cheese with the belief/faith of that smell being better, change from their path of following to the bad cheese and follow the scent to the good cheese instead. Maybe God ordained the outcomes by determining who would be better able to discern the good smelling cheese versus the bad one. But before reaching the end of the maze, the mice had the opportunity to smell both cheeses and choose with smell to continue to follow to the end on the promise that the smell held.
Does this make sense?! Or Maybe this whole analogy is the capitalist in me wanting equal opportunity, but the onus of choosing to be with God is on us and not Him the creator. That everyone would have the opportunity to know God on earth but that some choose to deny and some accept. Someone tell me if I’m crazy or just rambling.
I believe the answer is in the relationship between morality and mathematics. 11 dimensions to existence. In order for God to be perfect justice he needs to put his creation in a system where their will is completely soverign, meaning they can choose to reject Him, and according to superstring theory, he has created that existence for us. He gives us a conscious of right and wrong, and the Holy Spirit that convicts us when we do wrong. Praise the Lord.
I've always thought of this as God gives us the freedom to make choices, we exercise those choices but God reigns over them so those He approves of come to pass & those He doesn't, He restrains to achieve His ultimate outcomes - but we still freely made the choices. God either permits us or stops us. That's my best guess.
If everything is predetermined what is the purpose if life then, and what is the sense of judgement day?
My exact questions too. The instant your born god already knows if your going to hell or heaven so in a way he has already judged you so what is the point
Hold on what’s going on : I like to think it’s possible he still creates that person because 1,) he’s still gonna give that person the gift of free will and 2.) that person like dr frank turek just said could be responsible for reproducing another person who will turn out to be christian. everything goes according to Gods plan. Now a question for you my friend: why should God just not create life because they will go to hell? i mean to me that seems like he’s taking away our free will right? and love without free will is meaningless so it wouldn’t be logically possible for God to do that. i hope that helps and make sense. God bless
PGsmoove but then again hell is meaningless too. Whats the point if your not going to accomplish anything, if your never gonna die, if there isn’t anything to do etc... how is burning for eternity gonna help that person Learn there lesson? And you are actually faced with the illusion of free will because even if you have a choice you will still choose the predetermined choice no matter what you do your future self has already done it and the end result (heaven/hell) will never change
Hold on what’s going on 1.) hell isn’t to learn a lesson. God is giving that person what they’ve wanted. when you choose to not follow God you choose to be in a life absence of God. and that’s exactly what hell is. it’s not to teach u a lesson it’s total separation from God. 2.) if free will is just an illusion, how i can i trust what you said is true? i mean it did take your free will to say that did it not? or was that also an illusion making your claim “free will is just an illusion” false.
Hold on what’s going on : instead of false i should’ve said unreliable so i correct myself there.
There is free will....(example). If my best bro and I go to a brand restaurant, I know what he is going to drink. He is going to drink water, not because I made him and not because he has no choice. I just know him.... no imagine how much more God knows you.
But there is a difference because God can see unlimitly into the future before you were even born, He already knew what you were gonna do, say, and many more by the fact that he created you. Because God created time, time emcompasses the past, present and future, since he created the future, and that since he's all knowing, he already knew in advance of what's gonna happen since the future is fixed, hence why there is prophecy, and you can't do anything to stop it.
He asked "Is God obligated to only create a universe with only 2 people, if he knew the third one would be an atheist", the answer is yes, because burning people for eternity is wrong, and atleast he created 2 people that's not gonna suffer than create a being thats gonna suffer.
@@TheKnowledgeMan101 That is a good argument. If I am aware of which path you’re going to choose and also I know your final destination, that means you only have an illusion on free will and the “game of life” has no meaning because it is already settled.
Eve must have been predestined to eat the forbidden fruit
He gave a 'Foreknowlge' Answer to a 'Predestination' question.
I use the analogy of a parent and child, having actually experienced this situation. A child wants to go and do some activity but as a parent you already know what is going to happen with that activity. Does the fact that as I parent I know what is going to happen make the child choose that course of action?
This analogy came about as my ex decided to take her oldest son to pick out a movie. Knowing the temperament of both individuals I advised her against the actions but she was adamant and I let her head off with him. Coming back he stormed up the stairs and she came into kitchen in a foul mood. They had gotten in a huge argument over the type of movie to pick up. I knew this was going to happen because I KNEW intimately both of the people involved. Did that knowledge make them choose differently? No.
Also, if God exists in or above the time dimension, seeing the end to begging, the God has already seen everyone's choice. (Think of this like the movie Ground Hog Day). Again, God has intimate knowledge of the person and the situations. Does that mean that the people were forced to act a certain way? Again the obvious answer to me is no. Foreknowledge or Intimate acquaintanceship does not restrict other people in their choices. To really know what does affect peoples choices just go watch some TV, movies or some other media and you'll see the attempts easily enough in them.
your kid could always surprise you. THe infallibility in unpredictability of people makes that known, not saying it would happen but your knowledge is still limited so it wouldn't prove that it would happen without a shadow of a doubt.
But a god who cannot be wrong about an even, and judging by the words of others cannot change his mind or actions, sees and event and that event will happen no matter what is proof of predetermined events that show that free will is non existant. If your knowledge wipes away any chance of a different even occuring, like how someone will die, what someone believes or even if they will have children then no free will actually exists.
There is a big difference, God is supposedly infallible and omniscient, you are not, and even people you know really well can surprise you and your knowledge is not what is certain to inevitably happen. You don't know how they'd react, you're just presuming how they're most likely to act, even if you're 99.999999999999999% certain to be correct, that's not 100% sure God is supposed to be
So god is seeing people’s choices before they even make the choice. You do realize your goal is to argue for free will not predeterminism right?
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50No. I'm actually not. Just because someone knows a person so well that they can predict the actions to a particular event doesn't remove that person's free will.
Interesting I guess. It's like if you had a dog in the back yard, and you love that dog more than anything. You're also all powerful and all knowing. There's also a bear trap there, that it will get caught in and suffer for days, and then die. Did you put that bear trap there, did you create bear traps, could you have not? Could you have made it disappear, or move it outside the fence? Could you not train the dog to avoid bear traps? Your options are endless, unless you're powerless or are absent love, or non-existent..,..
he didnt answer the question. if he already planned everything out, it means he designed everything. kinda like a writer for a book. you designed every character and you decided what is already going to happen to them. are you gonna send a man to hell and be angry at him because you designed him in such a way?
There is a concept called free will. In free will if you choose god u will be in heaven & if u choose evil & sin than u will be in hell
@@indian9044 but if he is all knowing he know whether you will or not and he created you in such a way to make the "decision" of believing in him. Free will couldnt exist if he created us and is all knowing because it would mean he designed us while knowing exactly what we would do. The football analogy doesnt work in the video because I didnt create the teams while knowing all which would win and lose because then I would know who would win I made them to do that. Arguing that we have free will while also believing we were created by a being that knows everything that will happen including what we will do and how we will live doesnt make sense because we were created in such a way to do those things because we all behave differently based on how he created us so he created us to do those things.
Wow... this man is for real. Nothing rehearsed or watered down with Dr. Turek 👍
The answer is beyond what he said. God is said to “accomplish “ what he wills.
With the NFL analogy, Turek assumes there's a gap in God's knowledge.
The gap occurs when the persona didn't know the outcome in real time (when it was being recorded) until it had already occurred (watching the replay).
Is Turek suggesting that there's a mechanism greater than God that controls omniscience that subsequently feeds him information?
I like this interpretation.
I think, if God really exists, then he does not know the future.
He didn't answer the question. He tried, but he I dont think he could answer it in a way sufficient for the boy who walked away clearly unsatisfied
He was unsatisfied of the answer, now he knows there is a God, and one day he Will stand before Him. I bet his way of life does not fit in Christianity.
Free will is not in the presentation of life but in the soul's choice of internal experience (feelings, emotions of events) in it
The box of God’s working fits the world like a glove. Foreknowledge and predestination do not offer a contradiction, just an apparent one. God is outside time.
Here's the paradox of truth: God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.
A.W. Tozer
@@TheBluegoatman Thank you! :)
All this talk and not one mention of our Lord and Savior. Christ Jesus alone is salvation. Love never fails, Gods love never fails, Gods love for mankind will not fail. Mortal puny man is weak by sin and Christ Jesus fulfilled the law; of sin and death. By becoming a sin offering by becoming flesh and conquering the flesh sinless and blameless.
We now are now justified, by faith in Christ Jesus.
The past is gone , the old schoolmaster was a foreshadow of a great thing. Christ Jesus is the new law. Law of love. Christ is love. 2. New commandments hes giving us. Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your might. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself
This fulfills the law
Preach the law of Jesus whom is love and mercy which endureth forever.
How great and beautiful is our Lord and Savior
Not only ours but for the lost world
He will not loose one and He will bring it to pass
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, who WILL have ALL mankind to be saved
Mercy triumphs judgment
His mercy endureth forever
He is God Almighty
Creator of heavens and the earth
His will be done
Amen in Christ
The fatal flaw in Frank's analogy of a recorded football game: The football game players may have free will, but the recording of the football players definitely don't. If the football players played another game later, the scores could be different, but if you play the recording again, assuming it hasn't been edited, the scores will always be the same. So if God is omniscient and outside of time, then we aren't the football players in this analogy, we are the recording.
people often get hung up on the subtle difference between predetermined (using cause and effect to put in motion a desired outcome) and foreknowledge (having knowledge of the outcome and how it came to pass).
Fate is a roadmap, not a straight line. As an infinite being, he has a mastery of mathematics and probabilities far beyond our understanding.