The Cheap Chinese Carbon Bike that Backfired
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Channel Subscription: bit.ly/2NViYKI
My website: www.camnicholl...
Trilogy Cycles: trilogycycles....
Carbon Steed: carbonsteed.co...
This video is about the cheap Chinese carbon bike I had to send back. Part of what I do here, you could call cycling journalism. When I received the Winspace bike, it was unfamiliar, so we took it through a process to assess it's credentials. The intention with this project though, was never to go to this degree of checking, but journalism is about investigating, and the journey that investigation takes you. So here you will see nothing but that journey, from an intended Chinese carbon road bike review, to being one that I am now sending back.
#Chinese #carbon #bike
I hope everyone is well out there. I wanted to make this video, in particular, for those people out there considering these cheaper alternative road bikes. The intention of this project was never to land where we have, but I truly believe it's an invaluable learning experience for me and many others out there. I would really encourage you to watch until the very end to appreciate the full picture. Cheers, Cam
Rule 101 bike suppliers - check the bike before you send it out for review. Cam, great content showing the bike build and what's required in terms of grease and tolerances. Would love to see Trilogy Cycles do a similar build with commentary on a BMC bike. - EDIT II see you have already done this!
You should look at Trifox bikes
Sorry for nitpicking, but do you mean intention in the video desc?
@@hippoace Yes, thank you. Running at a million miles here. Fixed.
I'm currently using the same Kootu carbon wheelset. Yes, the free hub did bouncing a bit. As the shop told me, these 'cheap' hub are like this, it cannot be fix unless we change it.
I have the same model savadeck colorado. I bought it from amazon. Over 800 miles so far. Only tape bar no good quality. Very stable and firm when you speed over 30 mph. Great deal for the price. Hydraulic brakes. So far not regret at all. 28mm tires 50mm carbon fiber rings. 105 group set. This is a quarter price of $ 9000 brands bike.
Couple days ago I purchased a cheap car for $2000 and boy was I pissed when I found out it wasn’t a Lamborghini and now I’m going to make a video about being conned.
Not surprised at the bad carbon, seen that many times (and not always on cheap "china" carbon either). But I'm kind of shocked by the Novatech hubs, I have always found them to be really quite good, you have to pull the caps off and clean the bearing face every month or so because they don't seal very well but I trust (or trusted) them to the point that I would actively look for them over some bigger brand budget hubs and even recommend them to people on a budget. Makes me wonder if manufacturing is getting a bit sloppy over there in order to keep up with demand with the whole parts shortage?
I had my one and only cheap chinese carbon bike product experience some years back. Got some 60mm chinese carbon wheels for a cheap price and they seemed fine. then a friend tried them and showed me how flexy they were. few months down the line went over a small bump in the road and got a puncture. The rim had a chunk missing which sliced into the tyre! binned them instantly and never again.
Pay shite, get shite, buy cheap, buy twice. The quality remains after the price is forgotten.
Why didn’t you measure anything before putting it together? I would have started by measuring the size and roundness of that bottom bracket, which is probably way out of round and/or not matching on both sides.
I love the conclusion $1500+ bike is unrideable 😂😂😂.
As a consumer it would be useful to understand how it compares to other bikes in it's price range.
I don't think anyone's looking at this bike is in the market for a $4000+ bike. So comparing it to such isn't really revelant.
Its all advertisement to put off aliexpress bikes.
These videos are so biased against the Chinese brands, without telling you that nearly all Carbon Bikes are made in China and Taiwan. Not everyone has 6-10k for a bike which is indistinguishable from a 1-2k bike. All you wanted to do with this bike was find faults and you found them. Put any Carbon frame to this much scrutiny and you will find faults, I don't care who makes it.
China can't build anything that is even par above garbage. I've taken wheel bearings off of cars with 200000 miles that were better than the garbage from China and their bikes are no different. These corporations are whores that will spread their legs for a nickle..
You want a real bike find a usa made steel, titanium or aluminum made frame and build accordingly. They are usa made carbon frames that are made here as well.
I paid 1000 for a lynskey ti frame that I picked up in Tennessee where it was made, spent another 1000-1200 on wheels and Japanese made ultegra to go on it and I have a bike that is fast as you can ride it and will out last these garbage frames by decades.
When you say that the bike was unrideable, did you actually ride the bike?
If you use a lot of effort to look for inperfections in anything you will find _something_. The question is whether those findings affect you in practise.
Cam Nicholls you can not compare this bike to a $10000 bike. Not all good quality bike over $10000 will last well. As you seen how many good quality bike (pro) fail in the first 5000 miles? 99.9 of viewers dont have enough money to buy a good quality bike. So this is a good bike for amateur or avid person. Looks like you want to put down this brand for the price your forgot mentioned.
Hey Cam, I have owned 3 bike shops and sold thousands of bikes. I have seen several of the big brands carbon frame's with imperfections and terrible finishing. FYI.
This video is bollocks, trying to put people off buying aliexpress.
これら全ての意見からsavaは買わない方がいいと言うことですか？
yeah this channel is pretty awful, I don't understand how they continue to release such badly thought out content and succeeding lol they basically just pander to dentists. This bike even in this state would be perfectly ridable for years without issue. The rotor would literally heat up and bend itself to align with the wobble of the hub. Sure a wobbly hub sucks but 99.99% of people would never ever even notice. I would almost promise you that if this guy took all his bikes and tested their hubs at least 1 of them would be the same
And the shop brands always replace them very quickly if there is a problem. You get what you pay for.
I own a Kootu, a brand under Sava, for three years. Put 3K miles on it. Not a single problem.
Man, I wish I had this fella as my mechanic. He's thorough.
Yeah, he knows his bikes. I was tempted to buy a second hand mechanics bike that was a mish mash of scavenged parts.
Completely showpony workshop.White worktops? Give me a break. No mess, not a bike under $2K has ever been in that stand. Real bike shops service everything, not just the hobbyhorses of the dilettante rich.
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 whew! Edgy response there bro. Save some of that for the rest of us.
Its not that pricey considering the amount of engineering that goes into them and having someone experienced with all the correct tools, settings, lubricants is worth it.
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 agreed, seen plenty of mechanics stomp up and down on their high horse about only having park tools etc. It's easy to dance around and complain. Sure enough, as you slide down the pricing scale you find build problems, hardly rocket brain stuff. Frankly, it's far more interesting to find those problems on more expensive bikes which are heralded as the beez neez.
Fair dinkum with the honesty Cam. The only thing I wanna stress is never judge a bike / company by the country it comes from. (In the same way you should never judge a person based on their skin colour, gender, etc.) Every country has a mix of good stuff and absolute crap. Thanks to people like Cam for trying to help separate the trash from the treasure.
💯
@China Cycling I understand that you have an interest in defending Chinese production. The problem is the lack of respect for international IP laws and regulations. There's no way for the end user to be sure that ALL the components are of the claimed origin (in terms of which company) when one buys a complete bike. I think this may well be illustrated with the Novatec hubs in this case. I admit I'm speculating. Normally Novatec are a well respected brand and it seems shocking to me and pretty unlikely that they would let these particular hubs leave the factory to go onto someone's bike - counterfeit? This runs into safety concerns for the end user which could be catastrophic in terms of injury or death.
Yep, I've had the same issues with a well respected British brand. Warrantied frame for shocking BB finishing and warrantied the replacement for terrible flat mount facing. I turned down a 3rd frameset and opted for a refund. Wasted a year of my life on that frameset trying to fix faults that the bike shop said didn't exist.
I think this video is very fairly done and at no point did the presenter make any judgement based on stereotypes. If the fact points to the bike being a poorly made one, then it is a poorly made one. We cannot expect to see moving parts being bone dry and axle being misaligned and yet have the presenter say "This is a fantastic bike". It just doesnt work that way.
I understand Chinese brands who try making quality products must feel really frustrated with the overall perception of low quality on Chinese products, but China can only blame itself and its complete lack of respect to international law, IP protection and quality standards enforcement for this. Most people will buy a mainstream brand made in China product without thinking twice, since the brand will ensure IP protection and QC are ensured (at least at a minimum standard) to be sold internationally. Saying that every country has a mix of good stuff and absolute crap is not entirely accurate, as the laws in most countries wouldn't allow products with standards as low as some of the made in China products to be produced and sold. I am pretty confident that a factory producing counterfeit frames with well known brands logos on them would be promptly shut down by German authorities, while they seem to be allowed to sell and advertise their products from China without consequences.
I’m not sure why this bike wasn’t considered for at least testing…I’m sure it was fully rideable. I have seen many with voids and excess resin placed. The cost of these frame/fork combos is sometimes a tenth of mainstream brands. I’d certainly skip a “complete build” but I would do that with any major brand as well. Cam notes that the wheels are the issue…as if the base “Rovals, Bontranger and Alex” wheel sets that come as OEM won’t find the closet hours after the bikes are brought home. Poor review overall. I’d also add that the mechanic seems annoyed at this build…I’ve built mainstream brands with poor lubrication from factory. In this case they did NOTHING so the shop would need to step in and do the task.
I agree. Looks like a chip on their shoulder. I buy lots of bike parts on aliexpress and most of the time I feel I get a great deal. No hate to the no name brands. They are way cheaper and usually perform ok. They just don't have as much of a polished look usually.
No chip... Bike was supplied to me to build as came from box and was asked to inform honestly what I saw in detail.
Bike was Unrideable as the front wheel would not even rotate from hub flange / binding rotor / terrible caliper mount position on fork.
Suggested to change wheelset at least and modify caliper but needed to be assessed as a client would receive if he/she was to build at home.
Therefore terrible quality and unrideable in this instance. Cheers
@@BS16Techsure lmao you are a professional liar.
Yes, thank you for this. When I'm asked about "affordable" bikes and unknown brands, this is the kind of thing that I usually think of and tell people not to waste their time with. That you've done the leg work so that others can learn from your experience is very valuable. Honestly in an age where we have inexpensive and automated machine tools, this should never happen on something as simple as a bicycle. It actually makes me angry that we have supply issues and there are people wasting resources by creating unusable parts and slapping them on substandard products that look good in pictures but are good for nothing else. The planet can't sustain this kind of waste. Manufacturers need to be more responsible. Make it fit for purpose or don't make it at all.
"people wasting resources by creating unusable parts... The planet can't sustain this kind of waste."
This.
My new carbon mountain bike from a good brand will last me a minimum of 15 years. Thats 15 years, minimum, probably more like a quarter century when i hand it to my child as a "family bike" This is what sustainable production looks like.
CF layup and finishing is pretty much universally hand work, done by badly paid workers, usually women, except in shiny factories in Europe. The time the workers have available to complete each component is rigorously monitored, and the 'slow' work rate penalties are as bad as Amazon's. Added to the fact that CF dust is proving to be as bad as asbestos, and the resin fumes cause brain damage over long periods of exposure, with the poor work practices in all except the most modern and high-end factories.. So, like the C18th Bourbon court, with their painstakingly embroidered magnificence and grandeur, your expensive hobby is sending poor people to early, painful graves. Think about that. Let alone the waste generated by the unrecyclable CF rejects and crashes.
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 A lot of those "shiny factories in Europe" owned by the big names are only doing the finishing work when the carbon is already resin impregnated and far less dangerous, only assembling their top of the line range or small operations just for show, the dirty work is done away from prying eyes in (insert poor country with terrible/zero heath and safety standards), so its not just the unbranded/open mould companies that are causing this issue either. GCN did a Euro carbon frame factory visit a few years back, and the company (cant remember now but it was big ish name) where in the comments answering questions, when a few assholes like me started asking and saying awkward things, like: Where did those parts come from you are gluing together? That's a very small factory for the number of bikes you produce, where are the rest made? They deleted the comment people where asking questions on, and a few weeks later GCN quietly "cleaned up" the whole comments section.
But to be fair I bet you could trace most of the raw elements that go into Steel and Alu bikes to mines and smelting plants in those same poor countries that have equally poor conditions.
Ok Rando , go spend $10000 instead.
this is NOTthe norm on Chinese made carbon. So don't portray it as you have vast knowledge of Chinese carbon frame failure. Having lived in northern Thailand for almost 9 years and seen many many Chinese non-branded carbon frames perform flawlessly in many mountain bike races and rides, and hvaing mine also perform perfectly for over 50 races and nearly 7 years now, I KNOW Chinese carbon frames are not junk nor are they inferior to brans name frames. You just got a bad frame from perhaps a bad company, but there are scores of Chinese manufacturers that make great carbon no brand name frames.
Nowt wrong with KMC chains. Not sure why you'd want to change that immediately.
From myself and other team riders at my local club, we rate the KMC chains higher than the Shimano equivalent. They appear to be stronger. There have been reports if snapping and distortion in Shimano chains lately in my local cycling scene.
because the bike mechanic is a snob clown
They don’t shift like Shimano. More clunky. That said, SRAM chains piss on Shimano.
I will happily switch to a KMC when their is a few thousand k's on the cassette but I've found them to be very clunky if you run them on a new cassette. From a quality point of view they are great.
KMC is trash. Korean Made Chain.
Not sure about this bike
I own a sava with like 7k miles on it
The only thing a had replaced was the bottom bracket few rear spokes tires tubes I ride this bike like if it’s made out of steal no issues with mine
After 1 month, I watched this video again. I think, based on my riding experience - buying bikes and parts included - cheap bikes become cheap because of compromise. Manufacturers and bike builders do not put the best parts in one bike. It would be unsellable. It becomes too expensive that only the ones who really need it will be able to buy.
The compromise comes in selecting the parts that will be installed into the bike. For parts that could easily be replaced, they put the least expensive. Hubs, for example, are the easy to replace. Just select the hub in a bike shop, return after 2 hours, and the wheelsets are good to go. Frames are sold in so many shapes and forms. The compromise comes when a cheap frame is used instead of a relatively flawless frame. The bike is then fitted with a very expensive groupset to raise the prize a bit and make it attractive. The bike then becomes a bit expensive but affordable. A buyer will disregard the flaws of the frame, hub, saddle, bars, cables, as long as the rd, fd, cogs, shifters and levers are relatively expensive. In the buyers mind, I can 'upgrade' my bike by changing this and that SLOWLY, because that is how I could afford it budgetwise.
For those who are RICH, and can afford to spend money right away on expensive bikes, who's stopping them. But for the not so rich but love biking, the compromise bike is the way to go. From where I am right now, one of the bikers' obsessions is UPGRADE. They save, trade, barter, scavenge for whatever upgrades they could do to their bikes.
cool story bro
Wrong.
Think marketing budget.
I can't help but think that a lesser expensive model of a brand name bike might fail the scrutiny of these experts also. Unless you spend big bucks, I don't think all bikes are so perfect.
I've had my ex conti pro team KTM frameset for 7 years (bought new from the team sponsors), it's heavier than the higher end stuff for sure but it's a really solid bike, tolerances in the BB which is threaded, headtube, seatpost and frame alignment are bang on the money.
Is it the ultimate racer, nope, but for most non competition riders it's more than enough, and indeed was used by the KTM team, others have lots of good things to say about them.
In all honesty I think it's a bit of a lottery for most brands incl the bigger names, as you say though, the likes of LOOK, TIME and some other lesser known brands that ]] make in house = more likely to get the best quality.
Sometimes the high end models have issues too!
Glenn,not really because the Chinese labor that makes carbon frames value their job probably moreover than most minimum wage Americans and they have sacrificed to hold on to that job. I lived in Thailamd for more than 8 years and saw and rode many carbon no name frames that held up as well was any more expensive brand. I own one myself that has been in almost 50 xc mtb races in the past 7 years and was ridden by myself for about 300 kilometers every week for more than 5 years of that time. It's been crashed many times and never cracked or failed in any way. There are a few carbon no name frames that aren't much good but standards in design have improved in the past 5 to 6 years so I have no hesitation in purchasing Chinese carbon frame
@@thephotoyak "sometimes"? Well, then I've been incredibly unlucky, I guess. I had two "Big name" bikes: Specialized Diverge and Argon 18 E-119. Both had plenty of issues. Some of them serious, like cracked seatpost on Diverge.
Why wouldn’t you do these tests for the main stream bikes? A fair comparison yes?
Yes it's a fair call. To be honest I never intended taking the bike to Carbon Steed. It was only a visual that prompted the journey. I have never seen a fork that quality before and I was a little concerned to be riding on it. Turns out, it was the front wheel that made the bike unridable.
@@CamNicholls better cover up the branding and have them do a blind test to avoid any bias
Chinese bikes? Most name brand bikes mass produce their products from China, Taiwan, or Vietnam. Then they ship them somewhere else for assembly and quality control. If parts that arrive are bone dry and needs greasing, then grease it. If you don't at least take the bike for a spin, it's not a complete review. Unrideable? Grow a pair mate.
Here is my take.... Carbon bikes are extremely labor intensive, and even in China labor is not free, or even super cheap anymore. At the same time in the biking world, we have idolized carbon frame bikes to the point that every amateur rider thinks they need a top of the line carbon aero frame and that it is going to make them ride as fast as the pros. So between these to trends there will be someone will cut out every cost to make the cheapest possible bike.. and basically have just created the department store version of a carbon racing bike. Probably won't cause to many serious accidents since the ride will be so crappy that these bikes will be dumped in the back of the garage. Even fairly advanced bicycling consumers would be better served by a good aluminum frame, with decent components, but this is not what the cycling press writes about... Because no one has ever gotten excited about a bike with Sora level components, even though a good frame with that level of components would be faster than 99% of all riders.
Right on the money. Unridable for him does not mean that it would not be for someone else. For me a carbon bike would be a waste of money for the few pounds saved. And, there are high quality less expensive bikes coming out of China that do not cost 9k and now days cycling has become a elitist sport and even in the clothing people wear. I ride a cheap sub $ 400 hard tail trail bike and am totally satisfied with it as it meets my needs not some traveling advertisement. Making payments on a bicycle is just crazy, just to be is some in crowd .Well, ride on and have fun.
ZERO pros want to ride those heavy AF aero disc junk. They all prefer the 6.8kg fast whips of yester year. I talk with so many WT riders and mechanics off record. They hate these new bikes.
Look at my power data tests. The aero disc bikes are the slowest bikes in 25 years lol.
for what some people are spending on carbon bikes, they'd be better off with a custom/semi custom alu or steel frame. the pro's today don't have any say in what they ride, unlike how it was back in the day, when they rode steel and had their favorite builder make their frames and put whatever team sponser stickers on it. but as usual, the industry is pushed thru the pro peloton and some riders feel that's the way they need to go. utter bullshit
@@ohwell2790 No bike is worth 9k 🤣
@@durianriders But Harley, the baby faced, never was, never could of been guy over at the Global Capitalism Network who can do science and shit, says Aero carbon disc is the best.
I am wondering if the issue with the Novatec hubs is that they were ones that didnt pass Q&A but still made it out to the market place. I suspect this is bigger issue than we realise and could be far more prevalent.
what is QC / QA?? The factory in question has no idea what you are talking about!
Yeah novatech are usually better than this.
I think the more plausible explanation is that they are simply fake. I have come across plenty of fake stuff (mainly Shimano Alivio derailleurs, as I was in the market for those) on Aliexpress and on eBay. I think you can even find some videos here on UA-cam comparing genuine and fake derailleurs.
At least they aren’t charging $15k for a dodgy steerer alla Specialized.
or Canyon (van der poel handlebars)
@@escamunicha4276 Or Colnargo. Are they still making people glue in an aluminium tube with a star nut shoved in the end rather than an expander, so you don't snap the steerer at the head set? LOL
Doesn’t matter if you end up faceplanting.
I own a Sava bike as well. I'm new to biking and bought a Sava herd 6.0. For me, my bike rides fine. I went to the bike shop and all that needed to be done was that the wheels needed to be trued and the gear needed to be tuned. The bike cost $1400 US, which is about $1900 dollars in Australia. I didn't have any issues with my bike. Thanks for sharing this video.
Thanks for sharing on the thread Chris
I have a few chinese carbon cheap bike too, I weight 220lb and didn't have a problem with it. Of cause I am not a pro biker but I think that most people are.
My point of view is that, not everyone has the money to spend on an expensive brand frame. So the bike is totally acceptable for the money, look at Trace Velo he also has a cheap chinese carbon frame and have no issue.
i bought one as my first bike to, but under a different brand. local cheap bike brand slap their logo on it and sell as their "top models". i have changed the wheels out for a couple of dt swiss, and from one day to the other i was 2 kmh faster. otherwise i have been fairly happy with the bike. it´s 3 years old now, i think i will ride it this next summer, and then replaced it for a new "normal" brand bike. maybe a trek domane or a giant envy
I agree not everyone has $5k for a bike but that doesn’t excuse not greasing main components. That’s shit pride and craftsmanship.
@@FPChris u think western brands products made in china has much pride?😂🤣😂😂
I think you`ll find if you scrutinise any bike as your mechanic has done you`ll find problems. All bikes no matter what the price point will have faults. It`s just that most people without that knowledge will be oblivious.
And lets not forget that all frames are Chinese so to state "cheap Chinese frame" is a little unfair. I can mention two very high end western badged Chinese frames that are absolute garbage... SL7, SuperSix.
About the supersix, are you referring to the fork design or the whole frame? "Absolute" garbage seems a bit strong here. I don't want this bike as it's too heavy but I read a lot of happy people riding it.
That could very well be a 7000± s-works tarmac u know...
Hopefully you didn't pull out of the video at the fork inspection. There were actually seven issues all up, one which made the bike unridable. I have never bought a Specialized (and I have purchased five in the past, during my corporate days) that could not be ridden.
This is Awesome. I like this article better than the high end stuff. It shows the potential problems of buying a new bike. So much experience in the guys you’ve gone to to look at the bike. They are the real hero’s here. Wow, it will be interesting to see what the follow up to this will be.
Your Mate durian rider would love that bike.. He would tell the world its the best bike ever made.. You should've sent it to him.. send me the shipping bill
🤣🤣 best comment ever!! So true
At least it would be better than the SL7
What's good Harry, how's the shop, haven't been there much since I've moved... Yeah the Durian loves to hate on specialized and big up lesser brands for personal reasons imo, interesting dude...
Nah. Winspace and trifox are the only two brands he recommends at least for now, which are good bikes.
@@angela-onesroman8873 What's up! Yeah everything is good! Hope you guys are enjoying the holiday's! You are right about Durian.
There is always a risk when buying on the internet, some will be good and some not so ( as showcased in this video ). Maybe just by paying a little more and using a local bike shop you get local service and a place to return to if problems occur. Sometimes dealing with local service is the best. I also agree with China Cycling comments it’s not the country but the manufacturer who is at fault. As the old saying goes buyer beware. Thanks for the video. Support your local bike shop. Remember profit is not a dirty word business needs this to survive and offer the service you need.
Not that I don't appreciate this but if you want a "thorough" examination of this type of world go with Trace Velo. This just leads people to believe all Chinese carbon is bad. Brand name only you postulate? I think Hambini has a word or two on that idea. Unrideable?
Lets not forget that the most hyped up bike in 2021 is the S-Works SL7 and it also had the worst recall drama Ive ever observed. Every time I ride mine I avoid the man hole covers and hold on tight.
It is also made in China.
Well said Durian!
The bulk of bicycles are produced in China nowadays. I had the great fortune of working for a German cycling brand for over 3 years which saw me spending 9 months in China at the factories overseeing production and quality control.
The amount of brands being produced there, mainly from open molds will astound you.
A lot of the brands then have the bikes shipped around the world in pieces and then slap on an "Assembled in EU" sticker because that allows them to bypass the whole "Made in China" sticker.
With that being said, a lot of the Chinese factories are top notch and super credible. Their production processes are proper and they take pride in their work. Sometimes a mistake gets through but they are quick to action a replacement plan. Nowadays with Covid which caused material shortages and shipping delays, it has made those processes worsen and a lot of retailers left red faced when an angry customer comes in screaming at you and there are literally nothing you can do.
Os preços das bicicletas de carbono são abusivos
@@blade1994111able just stop with the rational comments. @Durianrider says the SL7 is crap, and it’s made in China, so therefore all Chinese-made bikes are crap. It’s settled science.
@@scotth3354 does that mean that all chinese drivetrains are also crap? Better throw Microshift, Sunrace, Sram and Shimano out then :D
Whoa, that hub is crazy! Since Joytech/Novatec OEM's for so many other brands, I'm surprised it's that bad.
It's even worse that someone built the wheel and didn't notice/care to replace it.
it could be a "fake" / "no pass" hub but they just want to use it anyway because its cheaper?
The up and down movement isnt so important but the sideways movement could have been improved with some shims behind the rotor attachment points.
@@truthseeker8483 but the failure you can see it by your eye
I would not ride it anyway
@@NeoPayneHK Doubt it's fake, looks like a
D981SB-12. There has to be a fixturing change between milling the outer hub shell and boring the internal bearing seats, so somewhere between it wasn't properly centered leading to whacked concentricity. Worst case scenario they had a bad jig and made a whole bad batch of these, best case scenario this one part just slipped out of the workholding.
@@cup_and_cone No reason for it NOT to be a counterfeit. China has no IP protection. No reason for another company with less strict QC to come out with the "same" product with the same branding.
The UT scan on the front fork appeared to show near surface viods/porosity and so no back wall signal was evident. This can be down to 2 reasons. 1) this type of part needs a very skilled laminator, to be able to manufacture a quality part. 2) the tooling required to lay up the carbon fibre for this part will be very expensive, even for China. If you have neither of the above time after time a substandard part will be produced. I learnt about carbon fibre in the aircraft industry over the last 30 years and finished my career as the Non-destructive Test team lead working on the Eurofighter Typhoon and F35 aircraft.
In summary, you wouldn't recommend cheap made carbon fiber bikes especially coming from unknown companies in China. Your advice as an expert in carbon fibre industry.
Yes the Ut scan was but wait until you see the results for the pap smear test.🤟🤪🤙
it's just not fair to compare quality standard of an 100 million++ usd product with cheap bicycle's :)
cool story bro
Great video. Great mechanic. He should be working on a pro team!
Yes, he's very thorough.
Okay, I'm a bit confused about your concern over the front wheel axle flang. As stated in your review, it was off centre, okay, but how does that impact the brake rotor? If the axle is true to the wheel, then maybe the rotor might be out of round to the wheel but you can easily adjust the brake pads to allow for this. A millimetre off centre is nothing. Is there something I am missing? Your concern about the steering tube is also confusing. Yes, I am sure the "carbon expert" was correct in his assessment of the quality of workmanship, but he also stated that he didn't believe it would break and considering it will be hidden inside the head tube, is it important? Lastly, you seemed very concerned about greasing the bottom bracket and steering tube. Is it possible that the manufacturer used something like Loctite instead of grease? Our local bike shop always uses Loctite to secure the bottom bracket press fit bearings. Looking forward to you clarifying these points.
Exactly! There's actually nothing wrong with this bike. All of these picky issues here I've seen on many other high end brands with different local clubs I ride with. Steerer.. not an issue for bearing displacement over total contact area. Hub mounts for rotor need to check with dial indicator.. could just be minor debris or inconsistent tightening of rotor bolts. Shop mechanic here seems like he's on recovery pissy cycle. Bike is fine.. yes, I would check and "finesse in" bike here as shown.. but you will see these issues on many expensive bikes as well... cheers!
The temptation to by an affordable bike that looks the busssiness is so tempting 🤔 but I am thankful that you made us aware of the potential pitfalls that are not obvious
Look man. I work in sales and sell product all day. The Chinese do not care about quality control.
That's bullshit. If they totally didn't care they wouldn't be in business. I've bought tons of Chinese bike stuff. I have two full Charbon bikes and have beat them both like a red headed step child (not sure where that comes from but). Flawless exemplary performers.
@@racerx8410712Did you just buy them from aliexpress?
@@iddra1868 My fat and parts I get from ebay. My mtb I bought used and I am the third owner. Also there are companies like Lamierre and Borealis that buy chinese carbon frames in bulk and put their brand on them (sticker on the downtube). I did hear once that one of those brands got a batch of frames that were a bit too flexy in the rear so they contacted the maker sent them back and got better ones. It's not uncommon even on a personal level to work with a factory to make sure you get what you want.
So, bottom line is it SAFE or not ? Your man said it is not likely to brake and there are many people ridding them with no problems, So, what exactly is your problem. They are in most peoples price range that want a carbon bike. 2k and up are not in the vast majority of peoples budget. The prices are going up fast so this it for a lot of people.
Awesome and transparent video. Though this could be just a fluke by Sava to have messed up, but just goes to show, that simple things like greasing of bearings, applying the correct paste/grease goes a long way. Definetely, more care and pride could have been given throughout the build process so that the customer gets a good experience. The hub on the other hand is just poor QC on Novatech's part.
This many issues is not a fluke.
It's a decision.
Great propoganda video for promoting the established brands. Do your research b4 you buy and there's some great Chinese stuff out there. After all 99 bikes out of 100 are Chinese/Taiwan made. The Far East are extremely capable of making quality bike kit.
For the rich its bad but for the poor were happy to have a bike to ride
Then find an old bike from a good brand.. More poor people ride better bikes then the rich ,, Fact
@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed thank you sir i just express my feelings ,yeah i have old bike and im happy to ride i just explain my side it's hard to buy a high end bike like me as a low level people thats why i've said were happy to ride a bike like that
@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed my bike it' just 400 dollars and im happy with it
And im very happy and thank for sir cam for share this info
@@darwinamodia9588 No Problem!
I have my Sava Colorado and been beating cyclists with S Works, Cervelo, Cannondale, Giant, and etc. ain’t about the bikes, it’s about how fit you are. The only thing is Sava is not UCI qualified.
Damn how are you beeing so nice about it!?? This product needs to have a good ROASTING by a 5 year old 😂
When you buy a high volume factory produced bike what you pay does not go the craftsman making the bike. It goes to a corporation. The bike industry operates on MARKETING. They create an illusion of carefully made product with no corners cut in search of performance. These hyped-up concepts of high quality factory work are pervasive in every industry, and they're promoted by industries that want you to think that they are more than they really are. Low budget, low quality, low bid, and lots of hype and advertising. Get the product out the door as fast as possible with as little investment as possible. Cut corners on safety, insurance, retirement, and quality to save a buck. And all those extras: advertising departments, management, safety and loss control, insurance, human resources, unions, and even the company goat roast at the lake is paid for by your purchase. You might be surprised to realize how little of the money you pay goes into the materials and labor used to create the factory bike in your hands. And the moron bike consumer keeps buying it.
I really wish he would have completed the prep work out of the box and gave it a good writing test before he sent it back
When you purchase a bike your paying for the name brand..all of these top manufactures like specialized, trek, even giant etc are all made in China. Asian factories account for almost 95% of bikes sold in America. I understand there may be a preference in terms of brands..but let’s not pretend that everyone isn’t dipping their hands in the Asian cookie jar. Every brand has issues..
The best cycling UA-cam channel there is. Keep up the good work mate!!
SAVA are popular here in SE Asia, total junk but they look the part and they are cheap. Some people don’t know or just don’t care about the quality.
Funny thing is… I have seen all of those problems on top end bikes like Scott and Giant and Specialized… especially the dry BBs and the messed up headsets.
In what I can see from the scan images there is absolutely nothing wrong with that fork. That chap saying the cable guide hole is not round..lol, it's not supposed to be round but elongated in a downward orientation to help the brake hose stay flush to the inner-leg. I wonder if he can make a better fork.
You say it's an Aussie company bringing in the bikes and yet the title of the video includes Cheap Chinese. Sounds like it's a cheap Australian company taking advantage of people's normalized racism and bias against products manufactured in China. It's the Aussie company that created the specs, issued the manufacturer tender, accepted the winner of that tender, accepted the first prototypes and first run samples, then deemed the product fit for consumption at that price. The manufacturer is just delivering on the contract as awarded. Yet all the bias in the video swirls around the title labelling this cheap and Chinese.
Buy the bike. Get get the groupset and other useful components. In the place I am living, it's still cheaper than buying them individually!
Cheap carbon bikes? Sava is a very popular brand in Asia and China assembles bikes for many brands as OEMs. Sava offers a five-year warranty for its bikes.
Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention.
this cheap china bike costs me 1 month salary, and my salary is 5x minimum wage in my country. so actually to us it is really not a cheap bike. i wish one day i can afford proper affordable bike...
I run all my bikes with Shimano drivetrain and KMC chains…never had any issue and they last longer than Shimanos…
Yeah, i have no clue what the mechanic was talking about. Makes me question everything else he said. In my personal experience a new Giant and new Canyon both came from the factory with a KMC chain and Shimano components. Think he either isnt very experienced, or.. honestly thats the only thing i can think of.
specialized specs KMC on $3000 bikes soo......
Because they’re cheap. They don’t shift under load as well.
@@gweflj they don't do something that your not supposed to do as well??
@@High_Octane On the MTB you haven't always got the option.
Unless your riding in the tour the France or at the Olympics you don’t need a carbon race bike, just get a steel or aluminum race bike frame, you’re not gonna break any sort of record anyway on your carbon bike.
Excellent video.
The 'dry bearings' thing on new bikes; that is pretty common. I've had that with multiple hubs (shimano hubs) on several different bikes (from good brands, they just stuck mass factory-built wheels in them).
I've also had a shimano BB fail in about 1000miles of riding; again, on a new bike.
So the lesson is, always strip down and check things like bearings.
When the world ceded the bulk of it's manufacturing to the Chinese; we became hostages to fortune.
Aaron's quick assessments are so interesting, seems so experienced and knowledgeable
It's almost like you get what you pay for....
Just think about the famous triangle: affordability, performance and reliability. Pick 2 of those...
THANK YOU for the "REAL" and very honest review. This will help people who are thinking of buying cheap bikes
I have already built 4 fully Chinese carbon bikes with 0 issues. These guy should of just bought straight from aliexpress
Not all expensive bikes are perfect. One top end brand got recalled for steerer issues.
@@jvaraneta And one issued a stop ride notice and recalls for failing handlebars.
One major component manufacturer also has problems with their mid-high-end cranksets failing [catastrophically in some cases] after a relatively short time.
So, yeah, budget does not equal quality.
I don't see how it's "unrideable." Please explain.
He got paid to nitpick
I have seen a cyclist lying in a ditch with the front wheel and fork separated from the frame. That could potentially result in a broken back or broken neck or even death. Sloppy work on that critical part IMHO.
Like S-Works Tarmac SL7?
The title of this video has a racist tone in it. There are many top quality products out there that are made in China. You have bought a very inexpensive product by choice and called it cheap Chinese. Most of my belongings were made in China and their qualities are superb.
spot on. Love Cam's video and love him for his advice but like any good mate, we have got to point out his biases as well
People type 'cheap Chinese' into search. It's SEO driven
Had one of these for years and had no issues...
Almost all premium bike brands are made in China. So what’s the problem.
Thanks for the info Cam.
Maybe those "Biopace" front axle holes are a special safety feature to slow you down and prevent you braking effectively enough to over-stress the flaky carbon lay-up in the fork 😄
Ngl if you really want a carbon bike its best to buy from a well trusted company or seller no matter the price because its the safest option unless you dont take care of it then thats on you
I am riding an ALCOTT/SAVA , had it for a year, 6000 km on the clock. Superb ride. Absolutely nothing has gone wrong. None of the sbove issues. To be fair, I reckon you should get the importer to say a few word. There are plenty of rubbish bikes , made by other asian/European bike makers.... saying its a " china" bike and lumping them together hints a little bit of xenophobia on your part Cam. I think you should be specifically targetting Sava alone and not say its a " cheap china bike" per say. Just my two cents mate
Absolutely.
Couldn't agree more, thank you.
Xenophobia??? Really dude, why is EVERYTHING about race🤦♂️ 🤦♂️ I can't stand this new generation of color hyperfocused people.... Sooo cringe.
The Aussie SAVA importer isn't going to be too happy.......Surely they could have sent you a replacement front wheel??...if you want to get rid of a free carbon bike again just send it to me...
Nice share, good to see a good bike mechanic, sharing his knowledge, gives, some bike shops give some bad experiences due to their lack of knowledge, good to see them at work
You get what you pay for most of the time. Is anyone surprised by the lack of quality?....... nope not really. China can make high end good quality parts, but the prices will reflect the parts being made. 😉
I bought the Sava folding 20" bike, I've had it for three years, lives aboard my sailboat, and I love it! I'm watching it closely for stress cracks etc but thus far it's fine. It came fully built and was done very well. However, when it comes to my everyday bike, I'd never replace my Cannondale carbon, but I had to pay real money for that. I don't think it is fair to expect high quality carbon bikes, basically you are asking for high quality slave labour. I dunno, it's a hot topic. Great share, thanks!
When your bike snaps in half and your going 40 down hill
I'm always routing for the underdog when it comes to cheap stuff. Everyone wants decent equipment at cheap prices, but standards have to met, especially if we are talking safety.
rooting*
Yep. My decathlon B-Twin bike (cheap, entry level) is really great. Plus I get a lifetime warranty on the frame, stem and handlebars.
I lived in Thailand for over 8 years.. I bought a Chinese carbon hardtail frame which I built up with help from Storywheel cycles in Chiang Rai and raced quite often ( 46+ races) and trained on, averaging over 300 km a week for 5+ years. It never failed in any respect. My Thai competitors also used many different Chinese made frames and I only once ever saw a Chinese frame that rode poorly, and that was back in 2015. I rode several of the national XC events in Thailand on it for three years, each time finishing on the podium. I have since come back to the USA and built up a Lightcarbon LC911 model FS MTB frame and raced it successfully both in Colorado, podiuming in my age group 3 out of 4 races, and back in Thailand the past two winter in my age group class, with 5 wins, one 2nd, and two 3rds, and one 4th out of 10 races. Completely love it, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone who rides seriously.
I'm currently working on building up a Chinese carbon 606 or FM0286 frame for gravel racing. I expect the same satisfaction from either of those frames.
Poor people happy to have bike like that
Nope, no matter how poor i am, my life is still more valuable than a bike, no way of telling when that steerer tube will fail, maybe i'm doing 50km/h downhill and that shitty fork/steerer snaps & send me into a ditch, no way i'm riding that
@@Jeppelelle respect you sir but for us we have no money to afford some a works trek all the high end brand f we die to that kind of bike so be it my bike is very very cheap f given a chance to have money to why not but our stats were very low how could we buy when we 60 yrs old just to have buy a high end bike we are just happy to have a bike that's suitable for our pocket ex f iwould buy a high end bike with no food on my plate can ear the high end bike
@@darwinamodia9588 lol what? FYI you're justifying riding a literal deathtrap because it's "affordable". You could idk, get a used trustworthy bike, second-hand or even third-hand. Or find a more affordable hobby like running.
@@Osamedejones thank you very much sir but it's hard to find 2hd or 3 hd bike for now no budget yet maybe but i think it's only in dreams again thank very much sir it's hard to explain when we don't know each other thanks alot
Sava/Java carbon bikes were UCI approved.
Looking the part is one thing, being the part is another. Great video Cam! (Fingers crossed the supplier can work with the manufacturer to resolve/find another manufacturer)
There are several Chinese branded bikes that are far superior to what you reviewed here. Same goes for wheels sets. I've had a set of Super Team carbon wheels on my road bike for three years now, over 10,000 miles and they are as true as they were on day one. Look great too. You just have to do your homework, the same as you'd do if you were spending the ridiculous money on a big name brand that was probably built in China as well.
Saving a few dollars isn’t worth your safety. If you want an “affordable” bike, dont buy carbon. Simple concept.
That backfired for the people asking you to review this bike. Just goes to show that it pays to do your research before buying. They should have done their due diligence, then they would have known that it’s a terrible product and saved everyone’s time.
For an entry level price with decent specs, I’m still happy with my Volck (Sava Rebranded) Carbon bike having ridden it over past 2 months. I agree to check torque settings as mine also came with wrong or loose settings. Thanks for identifying the BB issue which I’m gonna check if mine is greased properly or not. I’ll definitely consider more branded bikes once I’m sure I’m deep into cycling.
get a yoeleo. They are well made (tested by Hambini) and are very affordable.
@@mapk4655 i will buy a r11 frameset soon. Made by Miracle bikes company. Already bought a fm 296 ( t1000 ) from them in 2016 ( sold ), good quality, zero default.
Built a roadie with carbon frame and wheels from Chinese supplier, also came with the cheap novatech hubs. back hub I could skip the pawls over the ratchets with my hands, supplier sent a new one, exact same problem, ended up biting the bullet and buying a dt swiss 350, threw it on and no problems thus far. No major issues with the frame (yet), a few annoyances like the brake hose hole for internal routing on the headtube was more or less perpendicular to the frame and needed some sanding at an angle to accommodate the hose, brake caliper mounting surfaces not faced etc etc
I have 2k miles on my Sava, I haven't had any issues with it. It's a bit heavier than most carbon frames though. I have the Herd 6.0 with full Shimano 105. My headset was also dry as a rock.
Now I know why I'm still riding a steel bike.
some great deals going direct from China but would never recommend to anyone that cant do all the work themselves and already has the tools and knows enough to find the replacement parts they may need at good prices (new old stock or shop takeoffs....) as it can get just as expensive as buying a shop brand fast. I have built one complete bike a friend bought and built 4 direct frames... feel like buying the frame/fork only is the safer bet and choose one thats fairly well known or at least has some history posted online, a few forums have sections dedicated to direct from china "brands" super helpful with these as specs can change without sales literature/info being updated. My China Carbonda CRF696 gravel bike is the best and most used bike I have ever owned, have had it a couple years and just got back a few months ago from a south NJ to Pittsburgh PA and back ride (did cheat with some public transpo from just outside DC to the C&O trail head)
Wow Cam thanks for your honesty and putting it out there. This will help people on all sides of the transaction you would think.
The distributor needs to get a better supplier or let the supplier know to up there game. Supplier need to reassess what there putting out as its junk.
Your channel has now gone up in my estimation although you didn't get to sell the bike to make some $ your credibility has been enhanced only good for the channel.
Is that mechanic new to working on carbon steerer bikes?
He let you ride out on that bike with an improperly installed steerer plug...he was joking that the fork wasnt MADE properly yet he didnt INSTALL the fork properly by putting spacers ABOVE the stem and running the STOCK short plug that is designed for ZERO spacers ABOVE the stem...
ZERO bikes leave my workshop like that. I put pride in my work.
I had to swap some brakes over on a CAAD4 the other day to make it Australian spec. Took me all of 7 minutes AND it was enjoyable because it just works.
On a hydro disc aero bike like this you are talking up to 2 hours lol.
*I WILL BUY THAT CHEAP CHINESE CARBON BIKE ALL DAY*
Often, the only difference between these bikes and the name brand ones we pay 100+% more for is QC. These bikes come off a similar production line, sometimes in the same factory, as bikes with brand names on. The large Chinese and Taiwanese bike companies that are subcontractors to the American brands are always building to a price, and the price usually reflects the amount of labour time they have available to properly bond a component, or calibrate the lathe that is turning the hubshells to 'tolerance'. The lesser tolerance ones get put in a different box, with a different label on, and sent to companies that build the wheels from them, for lesser $. I've built over 100 wheels with Novatec hubs, and never encountered an issue like the one shown, which probably means I get the non-OEM versions that have their dimensions and tolerances checked a lot more carefully before shipping. I suspect the forgings and the general quality are the same.
And to think I was considering purchasing a SAVA roadbike ..SMH
ME TOO... hahahahah
I really appreciate your being honest and objective. It's nice to see content that is more than an informercial for products. You showed the risks of buying cheap. It's not a Chinese brand issue. It's that some can't or don't care enough to produce a good enough product with QA at the given price point. Meanwhile others can. Buyer beware, as always.
Caveat Emptor! if you want to know the legal term for it, well done though, good comment.
At least they sent you one straight off the shelf (as in what a consumer that ordered one would get). A lot of these companies, that are looking for a review, ship out their finest to the reviewer with everything gone over with a fine tooth comb, hand assembled and tight tolerances etc.
Thanks for posting the video out!
In my own curiosity, I checked on their pricing. They are definitely on the cheaper side compared to main stream brand with the same group set level but not by a significant margin!
As the other commentators were saying, a Second hand market probably the better option if you are only able to buy a bike at that price range.
Not by a significant margin - I agree!
Honestly there's so many good used bikes out there from people who go out buy the high end stuff and then get bored or injured and just want some kind of return
I watched a video of this Singaporean girl, which I think was paid by AliExpress to make that video, assembling a full carbon bike from China without a torque wrench. It seems none of the parts noted a torque limit on each screw holes, and I pointed out how it could be dangerous and she kept deleting my comments. Curious if she is still in one piece.
What a timely video, I have this exact bike on my home repair stand. Was indexing the gears and getting it ready to ride while I wait for the seatpost wedge to arrive that was missing - thus I’m unable to ride it. This has me reconsidering keeping it.
The one thing I will say, this brand has a rotating stock of 2nd hand bikes in the US, customer returns that are like new, for about $1000-1200 off. This means that you can get a carbon bike, entry level carbon wheels, with full a full ultegra R8000 group set for $1500. But you must thoroughly inspect it and if there is anything questionable: return it if it’s not cost effective to replace.
One of my bikes is their Phantom 3.0 (ultegra, bought like-new, $1500), and 500 miles in it’s been solid. I’m ultra-paranoid about the frame so I’ve checked it over every 100 miles, and so far no creaks, cracks, or trouble. 2 year warranty on the frame too. If it does exhibit issues I’m planning on just move the group set over to a different frame.
Anyway, thanks for the good content! Always good to see the pros and cons of these Chinese bikes, especially relevant for hobbiest riders. When I compare these bikes to other brands and what they offer for the $1000-1500 price, they are compelling as long as you know the downside risk.