Not Fair! Gaming Dice Are Tricky To Mold And Cast! - Part 1
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Casting dice is a dicey proposition. Well-made dice are perfectly balanced and that’s a neat trick to pull off with resin casting. You need to make very clean castings to avoid excessive sanding which can throw the dice out of balance.
Watch me cast resin into this mold in part 2 of this series:
• Dice Casting - The Goo...
Thanks to the following companies for supplying the materials used in this video:
Wolf Sticky Wax
www.Freemanwax.com
Silicone rubber and epoxy resin
www.artresin.com
Silicone parting agent MR-150
I buy my casting supplies at www.silpak.com
Here is a list of suppliers for many of the materials I use in my videos:
www.dropbox.co...
Do you have a project to suggest for the channel?
Here’s a .pdf with everything you need to know:
www.dropbox.co...
You beat me to it! :D This one gets requested often so I bought some (cleanest, nicest I could find) dice to try.
My first experiment involved a cup over one die stuck down on one face, silicone poured. Once cured, the flip/top side had keys cut in, release agent applied, taped circumference, then top silicone part poured.
Works better than expected. But for the video, I wanted to try doing the whole bunch like you did, with keys set down ahead of time instead of cutting the top afterwards (you know how that cut edge wants silicone to stick to it easier when making 2-part molds). I have to say, my keys were gonna just be rounded lumps of clay. Yours are SO clean and neat!
After seeing this, I have no reason to go forward with that video :D You knocked it out of the park, and my process would look like the Harbor Freight version of yours. :)
I’m withholding judgement about the mold until I see the castings it produces! But I do like half-round keys. You can buy half-round acrylic cabochons instead of making them like I do. They come in all different sizes. You should make your video anyway because more people will see it on your channel! ❤️
@@RobertTolone Have either of you fine gentlemen ever heard of Hexacube Dice? They're shaped like chamfered cubes with multiple varying face values instead of relying on multiple polygonal shapes in the hopes of creating proper fairness with the dice despite using conventional manufacturing techniques.
@@Groovebot3k I had never heard of them so I looked them up. Very interesting!
@thecrafsman would still like to see your take on this technique!
Please still do this
“Throw it in the vacuum chamber and let the rubber rise and fall just like the Roman Empire” 😂😂😂😂
"Sticking like a mother father" delighted me to no end. I learned so many tips from this. Thanks Robert!!! Can't wait for the next one!
I don't know Roberts background outside of this but I can't help but feel if he was a teacher I would've paid so much attention in that class, he just commands attention but in a natural and pleasing way.
I’m a character sculptor for the entertainment industry working mainly on toys. I taught Nature of Materials and Intro to Painting at Art Center College of Design for a couple years back in the 80’s.
@@RobertTolone awww man they are so lucky, I love your videos and was great to see the crafsman promoting you not long ago too, just a pleasure to watch and listen to, thank you
@@andrewarmstrong5266 Thanks Andrew. I’m lucky to be working on a collaboration video with TheCrafsMan which will be coming out is a week or two. He is as cool in real life as he is on his channel; super generous, kind and great to work with!
Your enthusiasm for wax gives me great joy.
I've never seen dice molds made this way! it's super neat to see all the different methods that people use
I'm on the edge of my seat here towards the end
Good to see a different take than Rybonator's dice. Love all versions though.
The silicone wasn't past expiration, platinum silicone can flash cure if over over vacuumed (it's a heat accelerated silicone, low pressure reduces boiling point on part of catalyst like moisture). Generally it's best to break vacuum 5-10seconds after the collapse to minimize that flash cure.
Otherwise this is still the best looking dice mold I've seen. Not to sure how well it'll hold up under pressure though.
Epoxy generates a lot of bubbles during curing, should try and degas the epoxy before pouring and avoid water based additives.
Interesting, I’ve never experienced that with platinum silicone. But then I rarely use platinum rubbers. Good to know, thanks!
@@RobertTolone Yeah no vents, pure "squish" molding. This should be interesting. I regularly cast dice, with pour spouts and vents.... and I still catch air bubbles sometimes even with pressure casting to 50psi. Gonna ride a lot on the resin, never used it but if it is a long pot life and cure time it may turn out.
"Boiling" is not the same as "heating". If you vacuum water it will boil but it won't be 100C hot. Reducing the pressure doesn't raise the heat level that much, if at all.
i vacuum a lot of platinum cure silicone and i have never had my vacuum accelerate the cure. this claim about flash curing is quite absurd.
Yes, boiling is not heating, but some chemicals react the same to both. In the past I've seen multiple manufacturer warnings for "Don't over degas platinum", typically with instructions like 5sec-15sec after collapse.
I run my molds through vacuum after poured and let them sit for 5-10min before throwing in pressure pot, this occurs 40-50% of the time.
Can't wait to see the castings from this mold!
Loved the failure and then bringing it back from the brink… can’t wait for next week!
Wild. I have literally never considered the size of the removed material for the numbers needing to be equal.
Great video, thank you for doing this! Also: "I've been sitting here fiddling in despair and sadness" made me laugh, cause that's me every time I try creating new types of molds 😆😅
meanwhile dice manufacturers like chessex are casting dice and throwing them into rock tumblers to smooth them.
glad it came out ok you had me on the edge of my seat with that final reveal
A wonderful channel and a wonderful presenter. Although I am from Russia, but your advice helped me a lot in modeling and pouring figures. Thank you for the wonderful videos and guides.
Same ) Greetings from St.Petersburg )
Happiness is a warm pun
This is my new favorite channel. Australian miniatures sculptor here wanting to learn how to cast my own.
Love the “Happiness is a Warm Gun” reference! Made me laugh XD
So happy you noticed!
I'm gonna have to use that one. 🤣🤣🤣👏
Nice Beatles reference Robert!
Thanks so much Mr Tolone! Your vid was recommended to me today on my feed and I’m so glad I clicked on it! I was so engrossed, I watched several vids in one sitting. You’re the teacher that I dream to meet during my years of schooling in an art institute. Your content is so educational and easy to consume. Your occasional chuckle is infectious too! It’s such a joy witnessing your process.
Would you consider doing a studio tour and introducing some of the tools and machinery you use? I’m hoping to set up my own studio space soon but for now I’m stuck with working in my bedroom.
Man I can't wait for the casting.
Wow, I was totally going to suggest this video.
I once had a d100. From its cheap construction I couldn’t believe that it was fair. So I did a chi squared test (as I remember). It was not fair. The plastic outside was built in two parts glued. It favoured the numbers nearer the divide I guess because of the weight of the glue.
13:07 - Totally digging the South Park reference there Mr. Tolone!
Especially amazing since I never watched South Park and I have no idea what reference I made! 😄
Can't wait until next week. I always learn something watching your videos.
Robert, this video project is just fantastic!!! Most people have no idea how hard it is to cast or injection mold polyhedral game dice which are even remotely close true and balanced; whereas, casino dice - the only truly precision dice which are fair - are machined to 1/5000th's of an inch. The other problem with non-machined dice is dealing with molding anomalies and defects, from such things as: sprue clip marks, gate marks, shrinkage, and uneven/incomplete fills or voids - making home casting without defects nearly impossible; but, your ventless/sprueless/gateless "hinge mold" might just be the ticket for the home-hobbyist caster of dice. I can hardly wait for next week when you cast your first batch from your new mold! Go Robert!!!
I suspect it to fail actually, there is no where for the air to go in the mold, so it is very possible he will end up with voids/bubbles even with pressure casting.
@@DKarkarov I might be inclined to feel the same as you are, provided we were talking about the average person trying to solve this age-old problem; however, since we are talking about our dear friend and favorite teacher against the eternal Battle-of-the-Bubble, I am going to keep my faith in our intrepid hero, Robert, and stay firm in my conviction that just as the sun will surely rise come the dawn, so shall Robert eventually prevail against the forces of resinous evil in his fair mold shop. Stay tuned, good citizen... the worst may be yet to come!
@@DKarkarov yep, dice mold-making and casting is tricky in that sense.
You either make the mold the way Robert did it, then pressure cast with nowhere for the air to go- which eliminates the need for sanding (that is what he's trying to achieve here) but will inevitably create voids in the dice.
Or, you make a sprue / vented-cap mold which will work perfectly with pressure casting but will leave a small area that has to be sanded down and polished.
There's no winning when it comes to dice casting
@@crablord9362 Well there are ways around it and things you can do. But youtube comments isn't the place for that lol. Either way I agree, if you want a bubble free dice casting you are going to need some kind of venting, and you will have to do some level of finishing work.
@@crablord9362 Total agreement; however, I am wondering that if Robert does not band the mold, might there be a chance the hinged-lid might - might, mind you - act as sort of a natural pressure-flap, which might let the rising bubbles escape while under the pressure of the pot, and, without creating any defect-artifacts in the casting surfaces which interface with the lid. Just a "What-If" thought...
15:35 -- "Some dice-y moments this week"
Can’t wait for the follow up this is great 👍😊
Excellent I have been wanting to try this for ages - now i have a step by step guide. Top work
Let’s wait and see how the castings come out! You might be watching a couple of videos that teach you what NOT to do! 😄
@@RobertTolone fingers crossed it works mate
The moment I knew I was subscribing. 3:55
Great video Robert!
Thanks for watching and subbing!
Quick! Someone summon Rybonator!
A squirt of alcohol goes a long way helping reluctant molds to open.
what an amazing attitude towards learning. Really enjoyed watching this
Ah yeah. I’ve made dice before and done a lot of reading on it and making fair dice.
Unfortunately the majority of making fair dice is how you use them. Is it a flat, casino type place that they’re being used? That can affect the roll.
Then several people cut open and tested chessex dice. This is a very popular brand. They found a ton of air holes in them!
So, in my opinion, as long as you don’t have heavy inclusions, tons of air bubbles, or sand irregularly on them (I always count the same amount of sand strokes on each side) then they’ll be good enough to use in a relatively fair manner.
I thought that this dice video might stir up the comments. I’m learning a lot!
@@RobertTolone There is actually a great video by youtube channel numberphile on dice fairness, made by a guy whose doctorate was basically on dice fairness and has been paid to consult with casinos.
"You won't know untill you" lol
Algorithm food. G'day from 'downunder'. Thanks for another great vid Bob.
I learned a lot! Thanks for making these videos. And I enjoy watching them very much :-)
So it's next week. 🤔
The reason I've been patiently waiting is that I'm working on a dice project.
Cool im working on molding my own dice design in metal
Hey rob, I think you could make a couple extra bucks for sure selling these molds. A lot of people are trying to get into dice making wether it be hobby or for some cash and to me it seems the hardest part is making the molds.
Really, beautiful work on these molds especially for the first go around.
Yes, I suppose I could sell them but that sounds too much like actual work! I’m trying to teach people to make molds so that I don’t have to anymore. 👍 😄
very cool, im excited to see the cast dice.
thank you for the tips!! i cant wait till next week
This gives a new meaning to Die Cast Mold.
Good one!
I can't wait to see how this one turns out! I have attempted to make dice, failing more often than not. I would love to see this test again with your favorite tried-and-true materials, just to see if the results are dramatically different!
We’ll see if I get good castings from the molds. 🤞
Great work Robert!
Спасибо Роберт, я немного поучусь у тебя, если ты не против.Здоровья тебе крепкого!
Oh my gosh! thank you so so much for making this video and responding to my emails. You're the greatest!
Love the puns!
Suspenseful episode. Will it work? Stay tuned.
Always a pleasure to watch you create. Can’t wait to see the next. I’ve always wanted to make dice but knew many difficulties lied within. Hadn’t thought about the fairness of each side on rolling 😬
Hopefully you will be able to figure them out 👌💯💯
I am literally working on a dice project as I watch this. I need special 4 sided dice that are marked in a weird way. My first thought was a dice mold from Amazon or casting them in resin. I bought blank acrylic dice and plan on laser engraving them and adding paint. Just painting didn't work. I'm going to 3D print a holder for them to line them up.
If you're familiar with 3d printing, you might want to look into resin printing.
@@chaos.corner I have an Ender 3 V2 and not ready for resin.
But for this little project I'll stick with blank ones. Polymer clay would be better since they are for a 3000 year old game. The Royal Game of Ur.
Now try the goodman games "funky" dice for Dungeon Crawl Classics. There's a 30 sider!
😃
Man. Does that ever sound appealing.
One time i used contact paper for the base of a mold and it completely fused and I had to cut my custom dice masters out Dx
I made two-part mold similar to that last year. I didn’t have any resist spray so I tried canola oil thinking the silicone wouldn’t stick to it. 🙄Yeah that really didn’t work!!😂
Another great video Robert! Looking forward to the next part. Really intrigued to see how you’re going to cast these without vents/sprues (unless I missed something!)
I get a kick out of how all of those resin dice makers that use 3d printed masters say their dice are "fair" when in reality they hand sand and polish everyside after printing them making them merely art pieces. I make those kinds of art pieces by the way 😂
Yeah the dice I make are glorified pendants and table decor.
They're probably more fair than most mass-produced dice that you can get, to be honest.
People put a lot of time into it and personally I've seen how much care goes into it and how they ensure their dice are as fair as possible. And on the other hand I've seen mass-produced dice with visible bubbles in them. Realistically, even if the dice aren't 100% fair, it wouldn't matter too much when playing TTRPGs, as long as there is no obvious bias to the dice.
So yeah, no need to be mean about it 🤷♀️
You vastly underestimate what you might be producing. Dice fairness is not even real to begin with, even a casino die will take a chip or a rounded edge sooner or later. The oils from your hand, the surface you roll on, the rolling method, does it hit anything or just roll to a stop, the humidity in the room, all these things will effect a die roll in a small way. So anyone who cares about dice fairness outside of a casino or other money game eh...... they might want to take the stick out and do some real research on how "fair" dice really are.
I was wishing just the other day you'd cover dicemaking. I've been watching hobbyist dice casters, and they're making a lot of odd mistakes, but I didn't have anything to compare them to.
Yeah, most people doing dice molds on youtube only make dice, and they are only concerned with the "looks", they mostly know the bare bones minimum about actual mold making.
The wavy bottom shouldn't impact the cast product.
I've been making dice for about 18 months and have used various methods including the cap mould you use here - in my experience there is always some post processing (sanding, polishing etc) to be done in order to ensure a good looking and presentable product, but it depends on the equipment used and, more importantly, the condition of the masters you make moulds from in the first place.
Not all hobbyists who collect dice really care about the small imbalances when compared with the creativity and uniqueness of handmade dice; those who do will likely buy a factory made set.
Your idea of a hinge is great!
From the comments I am learning that gaming dice are not as critical in their manufacture as casino dice. That’s good because my dice are sure to be a little funky! Looking forward to seeing how they work.
Yessss!! Love your stuff so much
Thanks for watching Kevin!
sweet work Robert. now roll them each 10k times to make sure
Ha! Not likely. I’m content knowing my dice will certainly be loaded and completely unfair!
Great video, Robert! Had no idea how you will get all the #’s on all sides!
Seriously love your videos! Keep up the good work
I was curious how you'd manage dice, taking a two part and making it into a one part is not what I'd considered. Fingers crossed for the resin pour!
You legend! I watched a guy on youtube the other week try this and it just wasn't worth it, you make it look easy (as usual)
Thanks Deep! I’ll be a legend if and only if I pull good dice out of those molds!
Sometimes you just have to cast the dice on a mold
isn't there a way to test dice for weightedness? I wouldn't expect that exactness would matter too much down to every particle of every face so long as it can pass muster. I mean, if you have more than one color in a die, very subtle differences in the distribution of colored particles (or even the amount of paint on a 20 face vs a 1) would hypothetically change the balance by a fraction of a fraction of a percent, but not enough to realistically matter
either way, very nice, informative video. Always love learning something new!
Casino dice use dots for numbers and the paint is the exact same weight as the die body. So all the faces balance. Seems that the tolerance for accuracy is much looser in role-playing game dice.
Most mass dice are tumble polished and therefore not that accurate.A good master would be a resin-printed dice. Thanks for tackling a very popular item people like to cast. The die has been cast.
Yeah but your 3d printed die has to be sanded and polished before you cast it, so it is just as likely to be "unfair" as the tumbled chessex dice he is using. But like I said in my own comment, dice fairness is a myth to begin with. There are too many factors, you should be aiming for "pretty darn close" not perfect, because you aren't going to get perfect.
@@DKarkarov I beg to differ: resin printed dice are high enough quality to be used as a master.
@@ladyelmgamer2182 Like I said in my comment. Dice fairness is a myth to begin with, so yes, your resin printed die is fine as long as you didn't do anything horrible in the clean up.
That said, they aren't "masters" I don't take to fake made up words. They are just dice you are using to make a mold. Just like no one calls a coaster used to make a coaster mold a "master".
@@DKarkarov A "master" is a term used in the mold-making industry and many other manufacturing industries. And by stating"dice fairness" is a myth is a personal opinion and is subjective. Please do some research into the subject.
@@ladyelmgamer2182 can you prove that dice fairness isn't a myth? Because all the evidence I've seen points towards it being a myth. Even just the carved numbers alone make the faces inherently uneven, and that's not yet counting all the billion other factors that might change the dice's bias.
That doesn't mean dice aren't good enough to play with, but they can never be actually 100% "fair" no matter how carefully they're made.
Hey Bob, I see you’re keeping it real. I caught the joke, “Dicey” moments. Too bad Vaudeville is long gone and they took the extra long “Hook” with them! Nice attempt though. That silicone you used is the weirdest stuff I’ve seen yet. I thought you were going to lose that mold for sure. I guess you should never “Bet” on it!
Best regards, Richard
Most mass produced dice are out of balance, too.
7:03 - Roman Empire jokes. Too soon, man. Too soon.
Sorry if it was insensitive of me…
I have no clue if you can pull it off, I know normally dice molds always have some compromises so lets see what compromises your approach has.
I live in Asia and have access to the cheapest, nastiest silicone out there. This looks worse than that. Love the hinge, though.
The d8 and d20 are missing, and as a dice goblin, it's driving me up a wall.
Sorry for making you mental. I’m a sculptor/mold maker, not a gamer, so I picked them for their shape and color. Never occurred to me to cast a complete set! 🤪
@@RobertTolone I totally get it. I also get the sense the humor I intended didn't quite land. In table top gaming, the kind that uses these polyhedral dice, there are a few kinds of players.
The Borrowers, that never bring their own dice.
The Single Set, that only ever use one set of dice.
The Practical, that collect and bring enough dice to calculate their throw in one roll.
And then there are the Dice Goblins that horde random large amounts of dice, more than they will ever use.
I was mental well before coming here. 😉
@@beliasphyre3497 I love my channel because I learn so much about fascinating things. Who knew there are dice goblins in the world!
would you believehow hard it is to find sticky wax beads in the UK :(
Did you make the mold for the registration dots?
Shootout to all D&D fans
I've wondered about art resin products before. They're kinda pricey on the resin, curious to see how it goes.
First time use for me. I just can’t make myself love clear epoxy resins (except 5-minute glue, which I adore).
@@RobertTolone is it the clear stuff specifically, or epoxy in general?
@@JohnClark-tt2bl Not a fan of clear resin; it’s a different beast. Plus I prefer quick-setting resins.
I've had mixed luck in some cases. I use first because I don't want the yellowish resin altering pigment I add. Did that once with some blue pigment and ended up more green than blue.
I do a lot of transparent stuff too, and need the clarity.
Big autosub energy. 👍
Hey thanks MonkeyShaman!
@@RobertTolone 😊 no problem. We're well past the arts being a secret generational science.
"If you're sanding dice by hand, there's no way you're going to get balanced dice." *looks at sore wrist from sanding and polishing five sets last night* Citation needed. Mass-produced dice are actually more unbalanced than most resin-cast dice, as resin dice are cast under pressure and dicemakers take a lot of time to make sure all faces are evenly sanded.
I'm very curious to see how your round-edged work because typically dicemakers use sharp-edged so that we can sand easily. Also casting a set of 5 without the d20 is a choice. 😂
Spoken like someone who actually knows what they’re talking about. First time dice caster here. You give me hope that these dice might actually work!
@@RobertTolone dicemaking was actually what led me to your channel because I wanted to up my moldmaking game. 😃😃 From what I can see, your mold looks pretty great so I definitely think you're going to get some good dice. Most dicemakers start with sprue molds but I know a few who use vented cap molds, though they tend to mount the dice at a slight angle to the mold in that case.
It's not hard to sand round-edged dice. You just have get your technique down and be consistent.
Hey Robert. I love this video a lot. Speaking about fair dice, the ones you are using to create a mold from seem to already be machine sanded. So they then will be "unfair" right from the beginning, what ever you do about the mold. I would so much have loved to send you the video where a well known producer of sharp edged, mathematically correct role playing dice rants about cheap dice with curved edges that "roll good". But I can't find it anymore, will send it, when I find it again.
What do you think about sharp edged dice? Would that be more difficult, besides the mold wearing out faster? I would love to see you give that a try.
Have you ever made a mold of crystal point clusters? Thank you
No I haven’t. Depending on the shape of your crystal they could be really tricky to mold and cast.
@@RobertTolone People make and sell the molds all the time. I would love to see you make one. Thank you
Gracias por compartir tus conocimientos :)
The snappier edit style was more modern. Personally, I prefer the more relaxed pace. But let's hope it gives you a boost, we're all slaves to the algo now!
Ok I got problems. I went to the local craft store any got some 2 part silicone and the first test I measured wrong and it didn't cure at all so I got some mixing cups and mix sticks and tried again measuring properly and mixing well testing the silicone on my abs and the top cured nicky but everything else got thick but didn't cure. I know I let it cure long enough. It takes 30ish minutes to set and 8-12 hours to cure and I let it set for almost 24 hours. Could my rubber just be bad or what?
Sounds like you are using platinum rubber and getting cure inhibition. Try mixing up a small batch in a clean plastic cup and see if it cures. If it doesn’t it might be the cup but it’s most likely the rubber. Be sure to be working at room temperature and shake the B component if the manufacturer recommends it. In many rubbers you have to make sure that the B component is well agitated. If the sample cures properly then you know it’s most likely your model that is causing the cure inhibition. At that point your best bet would be to switch to tin rubber.
How do i make a cast out of something that is made of cotton.
Seal it with wax or something that won’t bond to the rubber. Porous substances must be well coated.
That was a little dicey, but I think there's at least a 50/50 chance of it working out. 😁
😄
Must you use beeswax or sticky wax, or does any type of wax work? Are beeswax and sticky wax the same thing?
No. Beeswax is very slippery - a little more slippery than candle wax, but not that much more. Sticky wax is very very different. The wax you know that's closest is ear wax, but you can't use that for a mould. If you are going to go solo and try things that might not work, glue is the best substitute for sticky wax.
If you need any advice or tips on dice casting, let me know. Doing it for nearly ten years now.
I enjoyed watching your videos. I was hoping to find a method that would avoid the common problems caused by claying up the model or by placing sprues and vents on the model. Both methods are very labor-intensive when it comes to cleaning up the castings. It’s easy to cast dice. But it is labor-intensive to clean the castings.
@@RobertTolone what you're axtualling built is called a flap mold within the dice making community. It is a nice mold style that's fairly common as it's easy to make. What you made with the sticky wax, people use packing tape. They put the sticky side up, place a border and some keys and of course the dice and make it as two parts.
I like the idea of having the lid fuse to one side to get better alignment later.
There is just one downside from my opinion on this mold style, the lid might float and thus the face of the dice might be off by 0.1mm or more. And you have to clean that up as well. Also stretching the material to release the dice becomes an issue over time when you make multiple castings, your dice become slightly conic.
And, if you want to give yourself a good laugh, take some calipers and measure the dice you have casted, the tolerances are horrible 😂 so no worries on that.
@@RobertTolone and glad you like my content. ^^
can you testb them? like roll 10k times or something... shouldnt be hard to make a robot or something
Build a robot and I’ll supply the dice!
@@RobertTolone Ask Mark Rober to build you a robot!
@@kolitiokada9825 I wish!
close shave with that mold release barely working
Yeah I was bumming out for awhile there…
Love watching your channel! Is there an email address to contact you regarding some questions I have about a project I want to do?
roberttolone@yahoo.com
@@RobertTolone cool thanks!
+
Dice fairness is basically a myth, even the casino's will swap out their government regulated 100% machine made dice regularly. That said this should be interesting.