Warcraft III: Reforged Demo / Original Game Informal Comparison
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- Опубліковано 12 гру 2018
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Hey folks,
Today's video is a follow-up to my last analysis of Warcraft III: Reforged, this time an informal comparison between my experience with Reforged and the original game's campaign. Hope you enjoy!
References:
- • Warcraft III: Reforged... (Warcraft III: Reforged Analysis)
- developer.amd.com/wordpress/m... (technical design for StarCraft II’s logical two-mode engine)
- www.wowhead.com/news=288379/w... (interview with Rob Bridenbecker) - Ігри
Warcraft 3 will always have a very special place in my heart and I'm glad Blizzard is remastering it.
But I also think studios should take some risks and try new things.
Come one Blizzard, give us Warcraft 4!
@Ruby Rose Thanks, now Im feeling old...
Hopefully, if Reforged does well, Blizzard will take it as a sign to work on WC4. They have also said that they're providing more content beyond release of Reforged as well. Seeing Reforged coming, I'm feeling more hopeful that WC4 will come, let's hope Blizzard doesn't disappoint.
@Ruby Rose
I know that's what they mean, but it means they'll be working on RTS again, which could lead to something new. I disagree with you, in that WoW has run its course and has overstayed its welcome by about a decade or so now.
@Ruby Rose Personally, I think that if they truly wanted to do a Warcraft 4, they could just tell the story of WOW from a different angle. I loved RoC and TFT but just could not get into WOW. I am most likely not the only person who had this issue. If they take the campaign style of RoC and have one for the major factions, they can tell all sides to the player at once as opposed to the one-sided, heavily propagated Horde v Alliance of WOW. It could be an interesting change and a truly fun experience. WOW, players could see the story from the side that they don't play, and people like me can actually experience the story of WOW in a way that they can enjoy. The whole subscription thing for WOW did not help, but I digress.
@Ruby Rose Thanks! My experience with WOW is, as I said, limited. It was just an idea I had while pondering on the idea of a Warcraft 4. Now that I think about it again, it probably would have been very convoluted and difficult to pull off properly. On another note for it, I watched a lot of the BFA stuff(trailers and reviews) and my initial reaction was that that could be better presented as more of a strategy game. It might not be the same in RTS style a RoC, but I think that it could be a better way to explore the idea of that global war kind of thing. I'm actually wondering what you might think of that, I am always looking for criticism and analysis on my ideas.
I completely agree with the HUD analysis. I wish they would keep the original layout and feel. Blizzard, time to Work work!
they aren't simpifying the maps that much, the reason for the overall map change is to bring it in more inline with it's WoW counter part. As for small changes ya we loose the zoo and fountain, but we gain some mini bosses, an event where the city actually raise up a defense against who ever is doing the most damage, and some creep camps around the map.
Daniel Gibson wow surprised he mentioned none of this in the video this more than makes up for the loss of a mostly pointless fountain and a map layout change
I completely agree with you at 3:50 that by using fewer narrative techniques, players use their imagination to fill in the gaps, and this really adds to individual experiences.
I think it applies to many games, and maybe it's one reason why gamers feel more attached to older games from the past; because playing the game was as much *their own story* as what the game creators wanted to tell.
On the other hand, many newer game worlds already have so much detail, there's not much room for the player's imagination. I'm less attached to newer games because it always feels like you're playing someone else's crafted story, instead of making your own experience. I think it's connected a lot to nostalgia, and it's a significant objective viewpoint for people who think that older games are better than modern ones.
Personally for me, it's why I grew out of Pokemon games, and I think the 1st and 2nd generations have the best tone out of all the games, and probably why many many people dislike the 7th gen. so much. It's the same with Final Fantasy, for me too.
Thank you for explaining so well something that I've always felt but never was able to express
I am just very disappointed they will not remake all the cinematics like they did the one with the footman/grunt/infernal. They will only slightly improve already existing ones and I think they will finish the duel between Arthas and Illidan. I WANTED GROMMASH CINEMATIC TO BE REWORKED!!
4:42 7-8 workers on 1 mine? ccc xD
That's inefficiency right there :p
@Ruby Rose It is on their official site.
@Ruby Rose Check out their twitter, w3 reforged account retweeted an article talking about this not many months ago
SolusBatty As long as they do Arthas vs Illidan I'm good. I just cant wait to see Deathknight Arthas in the campaign
That's what I noticed quickly yet people fail to realise, footmen in warcraft 3 cinematics always looked more serious compared to in game, whereas war3reforged footmen look in game just like in cinematics.
That's actually true, Never really thought about that, It's hard to compare tho, But in the wc3 cinematic you always had the impression that the footmen and Arthas had a connection even tho it was a soldier-Prince relation, With the new ingame cinematics this seems kinda hard to accomplish
Blizzard has a strange approach to their old games. They admit their newer games (save for Overwatch) do not carry the popularity that their older games do. D3, SC2, and retail WoW have all received mixed opinions compared to their critical hits of SC, D2, and vanilla WoW. There is a fundamental disconnect in modern Blizz game design, and they recognize and accept fans want the old Blizz, even going so far as to remaster their classic games and open vanilla WoW servers. Even with all this, they still can't or won't stop themselves from making changes to their remasters, even when there's statistical evidence that people do NOT want changes.
Change is not always bad. I'd like to see some Singleplayer changes.
I dont know. It would cringe me to strike Black Temple in Hellfire as Illidan. They are changing the way maps to make them look more accurate to the current maps in WoW hence why they changed the position of our camp in the Culling.
@Mr. Al You're Talking about Activision-Blizzard , That's not the real blizzard, The real blizzard died when the merger happens. The old Blizzard was a love-love relationship with the players and developers
Operation CWAL.
Is a perfect example of this. The entire cheat is a love letter to it's fans
Warcraft 3 was more abstract visually, so you could fill the blanks and make it more serious or lighthearted, I agree with that. But I cannot agree that the new design is more gritty, especially if we include the new remade cinematic as the new remade vision for the game. The redesigned characters proportions are SO exaggerated (the shoulder pads almost became a meme) and questionable armor designed( the chest armor is held by an exposed leather strap), that for me it seems to be on the same level as a Saturday morning carton (ala Heman) nothing wrong with that, but not gritty. And if we take the original cinematic as the true intentions of the developers, and the original W3 ingame cut-scenes as a limitation of their time, then I feel the remastered did not achieve the original vision that was presented.
Unfortunately I did not found someone that shares my opinion, and I would really like to have a conversation with someone regarding this , or if not make my own video to express my opinion.
For me Warcraft 3 is a great game in its core and visual changes wouldn't change that. But I understand your point - the designs in the reforged version are more cartoonish. Though I still see it as the same game with more modern astetics.
@@manolgeorgiev9664 Unfortunately it seems they also take liberties with the story missions(as it was presented in the video). And I don't really trust modern blizzard to do a good job with them, but we'll see.
@Ruby Rose When it comes to blizzard its always , Its a demo -> its alpha -> its beta -> it will be fixed next patch. Also because they changed it in the demo, and what we've heard from the interviews, we know they ARE going to change singleplayer missions.
I think you and every one else are forgetting that this art change was all made during World of Warcraft. it's WoW art style + SCII engine + Warcraft III story. and the shoulder pads already were a meme so not almost and this isn't based in reality exposed leather straps have been around since Warcraft 1. I feel that this game better meets their goal then what diablo immortal did by a long shot and I'm looking forward to playing it.
@@FateofNone Mind giving an example in Warcraft 1 of the leather strap. Also wow art also changed from what it was in vanilla.
The only problem i have with Reforged is readability. Especially with the Human, every units kinda blend in together. Orc looks awesome tho. Maybe because of the metallic look idk
Good work keep it up! Loved the video and analysis!
Bless this video!
wait a month after release for people to get used to the worldeditor and i bet we will see someone recreate the old wc3 campaign.
So... they are going to dumb-down the campaign, because "WoW players have no exp with RTS"? Not good.
Yeah, simplifying maps with the lore as an excuse is really concerning
Sadly, Blizzard has a thing with retconns... I'd like it if StarCraft 2 had the same perspective as StarCraft 1, where you were just the "commander", not one of the heroes in the lore.
@@An63rX3r0 That's not the main problem with sc2 story, the real problem of sc2 story is that it alternates moments of good storytelling, sometimes even very good (most of lotv) to utter trash level storytelling (all of hots and lotv epilogue)
@@carniceiraa That is not the problem, they could have changed the layout of the city to WoW and we would have no problems...
But instead they also drastically reduced the size of the city itself and had your main base on the middle of the map instead of being on the top right of the map.
What does this mean?
You will clear the mission way faster and easier because it's so small and for the exact same reason you will be able to intercept Mal'Ganis in no time, or even worse, have way less problems to do the walk of shame back to your main in order to defend it, now that i have watched the reforged mission better i am REALLY concerned aboiut arbitrary map design changes
The game even has a tutorial designed to ease players into the game. So I don’t know what they mean.
Love the vid.
I just noticed that you have a tone at the end of your every sentence just noticed it.
Anyways keep up the good work
I'm hoping that the culling is changed back to something similar to what it originally was- Because this was a demo, this can mean they did some things specifically to reduce the difficulty and streamline the experience so that unfamiliar players with the game could enjoy it. I don't mind there being some layout changes to the original levels (Under the burning sky especially could use a rework) , but please keep the Easter eggs. They added so much charm to the game.
i completely agreed, That mission made me a better player because it was hard AF, until you learned how to had to manage your total sum of resources properly (total units, Armies split to hold several fronts, Moving units to stop flanks. While still making sure Mal'ganis didn't overtake you in citizen killed.
I hope they keep the exploding critters when clicked alot
@@jeds2245 You could get a talisman of evasion in that level that way. :P
I don't mind them redoing the cut scenes, I think a lot of theme could be improved. I just wish they wouldn't change the voices. There's a few favorite lines that I fear might be changed.
"This breeze chills to the bone and you're not even shaking... My lord, are you all right?"
I'm honestly glad they're not touching the cinematics though, I prefer the old ones. They're all so good.
i just hope the animations of their new close up cinematic view fits with the tentions n emotions which tell the story instead of like, my face is tired, for example
Is the reforge only for RoC or will there be one for FT?
I am so ready!
On the Blizzcon demo being more simplified, I would argue this is likely due to it not being finished, and that version of the demo may actually have been still a WIP. It's quite common in the industry for things to be literal on the edges of breaking when first debuted. This was no exception as there were many framerate issues as well.
When it will be downloaded?
Do this game have english subtitle in cutscenes?
Personaly - I love that they revamp mission maps like ''the Culling'' who even at the time were bad and forgetable as map layouts(not storytelling),but missions like ''The Tomb of Sargeras" in gameplay were perfect in map layouts + its side quests should have mostly minor visual changes. BTW the old console looks better with th unit portaits. The Starcraft Remaster way of doing it was perfect for the Ui cosole.
If I may ask, why do you think that the map layout of The Culling is bad and forgettable?
@@khankhomrad8855 the map layout is bad because its rectangular ''rooms'''with 4-6 houses in them with travel time between the ''rooms'' is lackluster in art design - just look at it and its 50%+ empty spaces not used for the gameplay. Looking at the map in the minimap panel is even worse... It worked in 2002-3 but not today.
@@Frozenmenss1 I see your point, but personally I think that the approach they took with The Culling was for the better. The premise of the map is simple: You have a base to defend, your opponent's base is, for all intents and purposes, invincible and you should focus on the main objective which is to kill more civilians than Mal'ganis while at the same time defending your base and preventing Mal'ganis from getting kills. In that case a Big square city works fine. You'll be travelling from block to block (you can call them city blocks if you wish) razing all the buildings anyway. On top of that, It's not overly complex so you can remember the map (which is a criticism of mine against some of TFT cities layouts and custom campaigns. Big cities with diverse buildings and doodads don't necessarily equate to better gameplay.) Lastly, I would argue that what you called "50%+empty spaces" are the result of the razing of the city. Sure, there's a part of the city that never sees action (never the healing fountain if I recall correctly).
Now, if you said that the last Undead Mission from the original game is unfinished and very poorly made I would totally agree with you (I'm talking about the Kirin'tor mages bases).
I think so far my only complaint of the new art style is the huge ass shoulder pads or whatever you call them for the foot soldiers and arthas.
HonHonHon pauldrons/shoulder pads either works :p
will Frozen Throne get a remastered version too?
I wonder when we're gonna get a peek on expansion pack (frozen throne) I really want to see how the redesign the night elves as well as their new cinematics.
So this video is why they scrapped those cool cutscenes. :P
I really love Warcraft series and I wish they make sequel or make the reforged a multiple ending path.
It's the little details which help to flesh out the world, when they remove those details the games lose their original charm. Great video, keep up the good work. :)
The new stratholme mission is to retcon it with the current design of stratholme in wow
Why your game character movement is so smooth, what is the configuration
im just going to dig out my old xp machine with the compaq CRT
I agree with some of this. I don’t think they will keep the hud like they had it in the demo. I get the option some people have shared about there feelings on the cut scenes and darker feel. However the culling is a mass extermination of a town. It’s supposed to be dark. I recently played through all the campaigns and anytime there was a narrative it felt like there was nothing backing it. Yes there is the players imagination however it feels kinda empty and just breezes on by. I saw this game the way reforged looks and feels back when I was a kid and the game looked great. I’m glad the see campaign maps change and be more like wow. To me that adds more depth and I’m not going to shame the design team for being able to recreate the game to be how they saw it when it first came out. Yes leaving the game to your imagination is great but the original design team had a vision of how they wanted you to feel they just didn’t have the ability to make it seen the same way by everyone.
2018 and still playing.
I wish blizz would just make a warcraft 4 but this will suffice greatly
Excellent comment about story immersion between gameplay and cutscenes. Cutscenes are something Blizzard have been doing a lot of in recent content, and it's been poorly executed. Sometimes you just need to trust that your players have a good imagination. Don't spoon feed them the story in cringy cutscenes.
I am ok with them changing the maps to make them look more accurate to cannon lore.
totally agree on that new action bar on reforged, looks too small and not practical
I wonder if this is an excuse to experiment on the approach to RTS in the current year, in order to pave way for Warcraft 4...
Dota, Island defend, legion tD, hero siege ........ so many games ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Ok, so instead of WC4 they will make WC3 remastered?
Yeah, that's it... we won't see any big title in the future from Blizzard anymore, with the loss of Chris Metzen they have lost the creativity and the capacity to still create epic 'worlds'... Blizzard is impotent, they just reborn their old epic games and move forward by makeing mobile games! And another thing.. RTS genre is anyway dead, even if Blizzard still have the human resources to make a sequel to WC3, they would have never do it.
I'd love to see some Singleplayer changes. I don't want to play WC3 again, but something that feels like playing the original while being able to enjoy all the advantages of modern technology. I'd even welcome some story changes, if the Devs see it fit.
There is a sentence says
“Do not fix what just isn’t broken”
I fear that Warcraft 3 reforged would not be exciting as blizzard said it would be.And many players would prefer the original game.
I say if you are going to do something new..consider another expansion or a whole new game.
Thanks for great video.
👍
This video is another confirmation that no way in heck I am going to preorder anything about it. I will wait unit the game is released, I will wait for the first patch, because it's going to be raw as heck, and then I decide. And dumbing down the campaign and slaughtering classic user interface is not good for my decision.
Remastering the first two games instead would probably be a better choice, even if they ended up changing them completely. As long as they retained those two games' lore it would be fine.
what if they bring back world editor and ice frog remake dota 1 ?
Oh god, Dota2 is gonna die now XD
This video is why I wish developers would just stop listening to their loudest "fans"
Whats wrong?
@@jesuschrist6575 not the video, but Activision will only make the game appeal to what's mainstream and what they think will be popular. Not what the real community wants but what sales pitch sound good.
I feel like they nerfed Jaina's boobage a bit.
A note from inside the community to the people outside: blizzard is mostly trying to keep the game as untouched as possible despite of all the new graphics and change in campaign.. and at heart of all of this is the game engine itself, it's pretty much the best choice to leave the game engine the same and only improve upon it because if they entirely used another engine or augment the existing one too much the custom map making community will suffer greatly and warcraft 3 with it...
Blizzard basically gets free fresh content put into there game that is apart from the base melee by people who love map making, and that's one of the most important pillaras for the games survival in a year like 2018 ... That's why it never died in the first place to begin with.
Furthermore I'd like to discuss about the games art style and I'm honestly not sure about it the fact that melee or custom games in Warcraft 3 Don't look like a league of legends cluster team fight that no one knows WTH is going on is because of it's simplistic graphics so super high detailed models may serve to hurt the experience a bit.
A player's forces are under attack
I like the old models a lot more I can't really point to why but I feel like it's not good to try to make it look more realistic
I’m not getting this if they change the mission design. I hate overly streamlined and easy games. Love the graphics upgrade. They should keep it a straight graphical remaster, not a remake.
Ixnatifual you should read one of the earlier comments, apparently they altered the layout to add some camps, mini bosses and so that the could have an event happen during the mission all in all I think it will work out for the better
Agreed! Agreed! Agreed!
Nice video
Also I don't care too much if they change a lot of the game because if I wanted to play w3 I'll just do it lol
is it only me who want melee in reforge to split into two ?
like , right now we have tft and roc.
then they should push it to ; tft and reforge.
kinda waste for a remaster without utilizing the most of new tech in reforge to "re-imagine" the melee mode.
Wtf they are changing the campaign?!? I like the isometric View in the cutscenes a lot more
U wrong. W3 just sped up, on normal speed animation is not goofy
characters became so beautifull!!
dont be afraid of new things. be happy that they put in the work. you are dragging the ppl that did the animations and models.
they worked a lot on them let them show them off.
Well most important thing is that multiplayer stays the same. But on the singleplayer campaign side it looks different, obviously the warcraft lore has advanced alot through wow and a lot of changes where made even to the story that was told in wc3. Blizzard made clear that most changes to single player missions are to update the lore to fit into the current lore universe. Just like the culling of stratholm uses the wow layout of the city.
I actually like that aproach as i always like to see things i know from one game realized in the style of another game.
"Hey, remember the stylised comic book style of Warcraft 3? Remember how effective that art style was, and how it basically carried World of Warcraft to massive success, and influenced countless other games? Yeah, well... we got rid of that. ENJOY!"
Kermit the frog gives his opinion on wc3
As a old Warcraft 3 player, this is highly concerning.
no
Guys please don't bash this! >.< I know you guys might not want it, but I really really want it and it will make me extremely sad if they cancel it because they think fans would hate it. I'd buy it 10x, no joke! T_T I love Warcraft 3 more than anything in the world.
Should be glad Blizzard didn't come up with the idea "Warcraft 3: Immortal"
They did, it was called Hearthstone
And i dont think if they should care about if u agree with them or not actualy... i for one think they should do what they want and how they see it like they did in start of WOW and wc3 where they never asked community what they want and just made a super game. unlike today when they have to run after the damn community that wants different things. the good example is with warlords of draenor where they cut half of continent coz players were whining that there are toooo many orcs... idiots. Making things simplier sucks and hope it wont be that way... but that tension is on the all fronts in games... and i am sure that are just being ordered to do that.
Porque razón soy el único en los comentarios q habla español
Y en los primeros segundos escucharemos en una cinematica en 4K ............."Debes combatir a la horda"
whosyourdaddy
Shocker, the new game is not identical to the old one... Seriously? If it looked the same then what the would be the point, the old one already exists. Changing the cutscenes so that they are actually animated is not a bad thing. They did not leave things unanimated to encourage the audience to make their own interpretations, that's just dumb. It was simply too much work because of the technology and budget. The goofiness that you mention is only true for a new audience, yes the animations look stupid now but back when it was new it was cool and convincing. Trying to make the serious scenes serious again for a modern audience makes sense. That said the game has comic relief as well and they given us no reason to assume they would remove it. The most goofy campaign in wc3 is the TFT Rexxar campaign, as for the over the top style it is still maintained in the new models. Why are you suggesting that the new campaign would be easier than the old one? Yes they are remaking the maps as they have more experience and knowledge about map-layouts now than they did 17 years ago. They haven't said anything about making it easier If you for whatever reason prefer the old layout you will be able to switch back to the classic version so there's no reason to complain about these changes. Also stop saying things are isometric, do you even know what isometric means? It is 3d, warcraft 3 is not isometric.
another game getting culled by casual users and lazy linear development to appease passive players. good I played this game back in the day.
I think any change more than the visuals is doing disservice to the original game. Yeah update the graphics but keep the game as it is. "Streamlining" (i.e. dumbing down) some mission, "fixing" supposedly bad desing descisions revomves what made it a good game. The original had a particular feeling to it and changing too many stuff will have a negative impact, IMO ofcourse.
Edit: Changing missions becuse of WoW is the most retarded thing I've seen...
Too bad it's online-only, for some reason.
Reforged is like a joke to me
I wasn't expecting a crap like this from such a company
It's like Unreal release Unreal Tornoment 1999 with the unreal engine 5 graphic, it's still unreal 1999, that game has nothing to offer in 2019
Except better compatibly , better performance , More slots for players to play, Better network options/performance, Ect.
And the first one comparability is a big one, Even tho blizzard have been great in keeping the original game patched to some degree.
Honestly i thought the footage of the remake looks simply unpleasant to the eye compared to the original... i dont know, the updated graphics/interface just seem wrong/unfit for the franchise and more fit for something like Starcraft
Beev You must be really really old to be playing video games.
Oof
pero Parece Armies of exigo la remasterizacion de WarCraft III estaba precioso
I did not enjoy the steward-voice, as when talking about safety onboard of an airplane. If you can get more personal in you talking, I think more would appeal to you. Just talk as you would to any friend about the subject.
Cutscene from reforge? Athas look like a girl, I'm sorry, he definitly did.
i literally don't care, Blizzard can shut up and take my money!
Xilertio Xilertio good man, gotta give em so positive reinforcement for this one
Overall, this video is very incomplete. You kept using phrases like "It's impossible to tell" or "I haven't formed an opinion on this yet". You may have sated some people's thirst for now. However, your choice to release this video pre-release of the game, in my opinion, is a poor one. Once the game comes out, you'll be remaking this same video. I like the depth of your analysis with the little info given to the public, but you should have just waited for the game to come out.
This video was mostly an answer to the comments in the other video he made on this same matter
Read a book if you want to use your imagination.
This guy's voice is so annoying! I had to stop watching after 1 minute.
The end of every sentence does not require an upwards inflection!
Bad review