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More like a fish out of water. What do you think Elon Musk's accelerator time would be after 2 weeks of practice? Cops are low level government workers for the most part- like garbage men. They are not high level people. Should it be that way, ideally not, but it is what it is.
I'll share a humorous anecdote about speed. Years ago my cousin helped me study for the Morse Code exam for a Technician License. I had to master 5 words per minute. After some weeks of study and practice, we drove to Detroit where I sat for the exam. And. It. Was. So. Slow. So slow. Afterward he told me he had drilled me at closer to 8-10 wpm, so the 5 wpm test ended up being a nothing-burger and I aced it without even breathing hard. Lol! Good for him. He was sneaky, but it worked.
In my 30+ years in Law Enforcement, over 20 as a Firearms Instructor, my experiences are that the member that struggles to pass qualifications exerts NO effort to pass. They reluctantly remove the weapon from it’s holster only when required to at qual time. Thry may even shoew disdain for the weapon itself. Even with sound instruction, they resist new concepts. They just go through the motions and hope they pass so they can get the hell out of the range until next qual where they will repeat the process. I really like your approach, and I think that it would be beneficial for the average shooter that wants to get better. The member that will show attention to detail and put forth a solid effort. The shooter that wants not to pass but ace the qual and has yet to do so. That’s where I see promise for this technique of instruction. Thanks 🇺🇸👮🏻♂️👍🏻
The problem I saw was problem shooters only took the weapon out of the holster during qualification. Usually once per year. They don't practice or build competence, but they carry a gun 40 hours a week.
@@OrionCorsariIt’s huge different between not cleaning a gun but shooting it every few days and not cleaning a gun and left it in the holster for a year.
7:00 I'm not an instructor, but from a students point of view... I recently tried some "go fast without worrying about hits" drills for the first time. I learned A. I have a bad flinch when I "really go for it" B. It was overwhelming, but I feel better equipped to try again and have a baseline assessment now. (even if it's bad, I know where I'm at) "Seeing what it felt like" was definitely valuable; I found something i can work on. Also... it was fun.
As LE for the last 16 years and firearms instructor for 9 this is something new to me as I was indoctrinated to “slow down and get your hits” way of thinking. That said, since I’ve started shooting USPSA and have taken one of your courses I have started incorporating this style of learning for troubled shooters. It does seem to help. On the flip side, all the old fudd firearm instructors think I’m retarded for this approach, even though I can out shoot any one of our cadre and the results always improve. Out of the agencies I’ve worked for there is zero training occurring and all they care about is passing the qual. Most cops are shooting less than 200 rounds a year of agency ammo if that puts it into any perspective.
I'll never understand the mindset of a person who doesn't want to be proficient with a tool they carry everyday that can potentially save their life one day
because there's a million more important things for a police officer that can actually get them in trouble? It is not their job to protect anyone - they fought all the way to the supreme court for that( South v. Maryland (1856)). Only a fool would believe police are there to save anyones life but their own.
@@um4668 it's as small of a part of the job as you percieve it to be. everything a cop does is backed up by the fact that they can use lethal force if need be
Majority of cops will go through their entire 25-30 year career without ever firing their weapon in the line of duty. This is the reason why to so many training with a firearm is not at the top of their priority list, which many times comes back to bite them in the ass.
while there are some great ones out there, the majority of police officers in this country are incompetent. thats not just in their gun handling either.
Hard to find and retain good quality people in any line of work. Police officers is a very high demand job and typically does not pay very well. You are not going to attract the best for the worst salary.
Ignoring the comments from those that have never had to train thousands of officers, I'll talk about Ben's thoughts here. I'm liking them! Reverse engineering the thought practice process. I'm going to explore this with our forward thinking staff
This brings up an interesting point that I vaguely remember you touching on in the past… a lot of mil / LE guys are stuck in this mentality of “every shot they fire needs to be treated as if it’s real world”, a lot of that “competitive shooting leads to bad habits that will get you killed in the streets” mentality. Whether it’s the students or the instructors, I don’t know, but somebody needs to learn the lesson that it’s possible to train specific skills without there being a direct, real-world analogue for that specific drill. What you should take away from the “four second bill drill with zero shot accountability” drill is a stepping stone to more effectively shooting faster, not “in case of emergency, you can just mag dump in the direction of your target, don’t worry about what you hit”. If cops aren’t smart enough to grasp that distinction, then maybe they’re not smart enough to be carrying a gun in the first place.
Retired FLETC certified instructor and Rangemaster Basic and Advanced. The issue with Agencies is several. 1 most agency instructors are simply safety monitors and test administrators. They can’t diagnose shooters 2 Administrative types aren’t gun people and only care about minimum standards and often dumb down courses making them easier for the masses 3 Outside special teams most don’t care about training there is a 10% 80% 10% breakdown top 10 best shooters and go to training on own time and dime. 80 in the middle a few good ones but the majority pass every year by only a few points and quip “good enough til next year” and the bottom 10 are the ones that can’t qualify and the administration refuses to fire them these days and just makes the course easier. I won’t even get into the local County Sheriff Minutia in my retirement job I run into on the firearms side. Why we have several Officer involved shootings turn into utter abortions on body cams!
I love the experts on here who have no idea what it’s like trying to hire police officers right now. People aren’t getting fired for failing a qual, there is literally no one to replace them. We can’t even replace retiring officers fast enough. It’s way cheaper to spend extra money training someone to get them to pass than it is to try and recruit someone else. Even if we did fire a recruit for not passing a qual, if we find someone to replace them (a big if) that person is probably going to struggle. Agencies have to get better at training the recruits we get.
@@HWG-wm8ldIt's pretty much that way in Los Angeles. The LAPD and LASD look like a bunch of cholos from South of the border, and act like it too. The only difference between a gangbanger and LEO nowadays is one chose to join the bigger and more successful Mafia/gang.
@@randylahey2242 That would work if the stupid Karens wouldn't call police for every single inconvenience, but at this point, people cannot resolve their own issues such as disobedient kids, loud music from their neighbnors, and minor traffic accidents. Stupid people bog down the system and still demand "faster" police response because they pay taxes.
I agree. The principle applies to many different skills that can be trained, put students in a more difficult circumstance than what they're trying to accomplish in reality and then dial back down and there are often light bulb moments that happen for students when they realize what they're capable of. That hard part is getting them to then train to achieve those light bulb moments on a consistent basis and then continue to improve over the long term.
Cool idea. So basically get them to produce the Outcome (their current fastest speed/goal) then go back and focus on Process (One shot returns, Doubles, etc. So they learn how to do it fast and accurate)
I agree and see the value in what you describe as taking away the accountability. I’ve actually done something similar with trainees in different classes and at times, remediation. I’ve either completely removed targets to let them shoot into the berm to work on speed while watching the sights and practicing fundamentals. I’ve also covered targets with trash bags and made them go faster. Many times people are surprised that they are still on paper and didn’t completely suck when the bags come off.
This is the biggest change that needs to happen in law-enforcement training. The idea of getting them to practice at speed escapes most trainers/officers. This is something me and my staff started doing the past few years was pushing officers past their comfort zone into something they’ve never done before and then learn how to diagnose and fix issues they would have and ultimately get better. Very few took it and ran with it while the majority continued down the usual path and maybe get marginally better. We always told them You’re never going to slow down your shooting in a gunfight and will probably fire the gun faster than you ever have before, so why not figure out that in practice. Officers fire at what we like to call the speed of panic, because that’s essentially what they are doing because they’ve never done it before. The hard sad truth is that most police officers don’t want nor care to get better. Even the ones that have previously been in a shooting, something we like to call Survivor biased or it worked for me that time I’m good enough. Most police officers that survive a gunfight are simply lucky. There is so much that needs to change in the law-enforcement training community. However, I don’t think it ever will because of everything from terrible leadership to poor mentality and expectations.
"A lot of firearms trainers don't like this kind of training" that's because a lot of ineffective and legacy firearms trainers are afraid of failing. Their fear blocks them and their students from experiencing shooting and from truly learning.
You got red shirts that barely make 6 shots A/C 15 yards in 10 seconds. If they can't do it - they're not getting somebody else to do it. Taking away the accuracy - but these instructors live by words like "every bullet has a lawyer attached to it" and "speed is fine, accuracy is final." They don't know. This does not compute - they'll say they have to train people that don't want to be here or they train to the lowest common denominator and they'll say things like competition will get you kilt on the streez. If you want a cop to shoot 6 rounds to the A/C from 15 yards in 10 seconds, you'll need instructors that can do it in at least 5. They need to know what it really takes to shoot and most of them just regurgitate the same thing somebody said dating back to Jeff Cooper.
Very good points, my agency is issuing a speed and accuracy challenge this quarter, as red shirts we had to do it first and earn the coins. Our times and hit factors are posted for all to see. Helps keep us accountable, and avoid the situation of "those who can't do, teach."
You know about halfway through the explanation of the “make em chute fast” argument I was in fervent disagreement, and I was so confident in my disagreement I wasn’t gonna say anything I was just gonna move on with my life. I didn’t figure the cat who couldn’t pass a police pistol qual, which are normally laughably easy, would see very much or get very much out of shooting faster than their ability to make accurate hits. But then he said (a rough approximation) “they’ll see SOMETHING, a flash of their sights, they might even see their sights not do what they want every time but when you raise the time from 4 seconds back to the 10 second standard it’ll feel like an eternity for them and they might be able to apply some fundamentals” I was like ah beans. I’ve been foiled again by the steggler. Who woulda guessed that the guy with 20+ years of firearms training and a couple big boi titles would know a thing or two. Sometimes you hate to be wrong, sometimes it just be that way.
Such a great video. Even experienced shooters develop an aversion to allowing themselves to miss (I’m talking about myself, of course). You need to actively remind yourself that if you’re always hitting, you aren’t growing as a shooter, and you probably haven’t found the edge.
Man, that tip about making them run faster then reigning it back in is great. I've helped some buddies try to get better under time constraints and this would really help. When I shoot drills with harder par times and then shoot drills I'm either better at or have looser par times, I feel like I have all the time in the world. I don't know why I haven't thought of that before.
absolutely! i can 100% relate to this. i train l.e. and i run them past their limit or whats considered "accountable speed" and next thing you know, they acknowledge that their own pandoras box has been opened pertaining to their own personal level and they always say they really do feel more comfortable and confident shooting faster. now they know they CAN get used to learning how to keep up with that front sight and more higher level fundamentals.
3o years of teaching LEO types from 2 weeks to qualify to over 4 months to qualify has taught me the vast majority of Instructor types on the line only push the same grip, sight, jerking the trigger, etc., mentality without considering the individual and their perception of what is going on when they pick up the gun and shoot. I was notorious for getting the problem children from SAC down to street cops and newbies. Twenty minutes and most would shoot 94 to 100 for 3 consecutive record runs. The typical comment would be that they were never told much of what I taught when they went through Quantico or any other police academy. They wanted to know why. Answer - most instructors qualify for the certificate, but don't really know how to analyze a student and teach. They look good and are nice folks, but it ain't there. Sometimes the student needs to be so frustrated that they now decide to listen and understand what you're trying to explain to them. Others have preconceived notions from somebody else or UA-cam, etc. So, they don't really listen. They hear ya, but they don't listen. Ladies will usually pick up the concepts, target analysis, and corrective action far quicker than men. Their lack of preconceived notions, etc., make them easier to correct. Rob Leatham, Rob Vogel, Jerry Miculek, you, have great ideas learned through failures over the years. Students don't have that, so you have to quickly analyze the fundamentals and instill in them the notion that certain things are key to shooting high scores - sight alignment/picture with constant follow-through. Rob Leatham tells it bluntly by saying great target picture, sight picture, etc., is worthless if the muzzle moves. The student hears that but doesn't comprehend because they haven't broken down what their problem is and it might just be as simple as follow-through or staging the trigger pull because they want the perfect sight picture/allgnment. I still help folks who want the help after 17 years of retirement. Pure speed and accuracy on IDPA type targets is a different level for most. They want to get there, but they don't want to do the work to figure out why they aren't shooting well. Keep it up. I enjoy the thought process you and others go through in attacking different problems. It's still educational even at my age. Which sucks!!!
Agree 100%. It’s an experience thing especially with a new or novice(ish) shooter. As far as LEO’s go it’s more likely than not an Agency issue rather than an individual one. Have worked with plenty of LEO/MIL and wish I had a nickel for every time someone said ‘nobody ever explained that to me’…most want to be better but the resources aren’t made available.
Ben, my favorite training drill is of course the john wick drill you put out some time back. When will we see a instructor zero drill to “train for the streets”
You're the second person I've heard recommend this The first one went so far as to recommend starting out just shooting into the berm until you get your speed up, then bringing in targets and making them gradually smaller
I think the issue has more to do with the officer. In my experience the officer has to want to improve, not just to pass but overall improve their performance and ability. If they don’t they will always seek to be just good enough. No instructor can care more about the student performance than the student. If the student only wants to give the minimum that is all an instructor will get.
I've never personally seen someone failing a qual, successfully be trained to "pass the qual". Even if they some how pass this time, they are right back to struggling to qual next year. In my experience, the people struggling to qual typically don't take an interest in guns. They won't dry fire. Won't go to the range unless forced. Idk how you get that officer even competent enough to reliably qual each year.
@@Platoon_Guide but even here, you say over weeks, meaning they were willing to put in some work outside of just qual day. The guys I'm around will not put in any time apart from qual day, then expect you to coach them to a passing score in a couple hours.
Best I’ve had at 7 yards with my EDC is 2.36. I never tried 15. Doubt I could do that one. Don’t think many in our COF nightlife’s could either even with their comp guns at 15.
Dude, that speed could earn you a Light Pin from Gabe White (assuming your times on the split bill drill, etc were equivalent), and that ain't shabby. I think that Ben may have underestimated the difficulty of the Bill Drill at 15 yards. And I'm really hating myself for missing his classes last time we taught at Karl Rehn's A Zone range.😢
We used to call this "KISS" Keep It Simple Stupid. Break something down into simple steps so a person can understand and see what it takes to do something. You keep adding additional steps or concentrate on a separate step until they understand or can do that. Finally put it all together and they will usually figure out that it really isn't as hard as they thought it was.
I've actually done really similar things with a couple of my friends after they asked me how I could shoot so fast(compared to them). With a timer, speed them up until they're uncomfortable, go a little more, hold there, and then bring it back down, and now they're way more comfortable going at least a little faster than they started with
You don’t train for the test(qual) you train to get better in general. The test should be used as just a random assessment to judge overall progression. Will post a video responding…
@Ben Stoeger - @Matt Burkett had me do JUST what you suggest in the 90's!!. "Just GOOOOO FAST!!!! " then back off just a touch... wow faster than I was! I think it's that it teaches you to "see Faster". If that makes sense? No reason that would work for teaching people to pass the Qual. 😉
Interesting methodology. I have been personally practicing towards a very high accuracy standard and have kinda gotten stuck speed wise. Fortunately I have a range that will actually accommodate drawing from the holster and shooting fast. Very well may try incorporating some of this philosophy into my personal practice and see if I can shave some time off
I appreciate this video. First thing, I think you have solid points, and as long as the ammo allocation supports it, this is probably the best way to do it. Most of the places with a selection process, like you mentioned, have a pretty generous ammo budget in my experience. In my job, you are basically given 90 rounds a year. 45 rounds for the pre-qualification practice, and 45 rounds for the qualification. There is not much wiggle room for experimenting with that Imo.
Ive had 2 SRO’s die within 30 days. Sub 500rds.. the shop I buy them from will swap them out if less than 30 days old. They are all master/GM shooters (Aim Surplus). They told me 1 out of 10 dies in a similar manner. Reticle starts drifting/not holding 0.
The problem is that police in general are not gun nuts, that is to say that they are not passionate about the culture, history, philosophy, and implementation of firearms I'd even venture to say that many if not most dont even really like guns they are just tools that far too many are not even expecting to ever have to use in the field.
When cops carried 357 6 shot revolvers they had a better hit percentage than nowadays. Obviously it would be preposterous to suggest they go back to carrying revolvers, but definitely something needs to be done about their low performance. Scary to think a cop is just as likely to kill a loved one as a criminal.
It really is scary how brutally awful some officers are at shooting. Half my academy class had never touched a handgun before and they all passed the qual with a pretty decent margin. The idea of an officer struggling to pass the qual is quite terrifying when you understand just how bad you have to be
Sure you were. There is nothing wrong with the SRO, everything breaks eventually. Trijicon takes care of their customers. If it’s out of warranty they will still help out.
I’ve done what you suggest and a variation where I tell them I want them to keep their eye (or eyes) open and just watch the gun rise and settle down the advance to watching the front sight move up and down. Mostly it’s just trying all these things to try and get them over the hump with whatever clicks for them. Or maybe they’re stupid. 😂
I hate the "training for the qual" mindset. Not many quals out there require you to shoot in a realistic way. A good baseline qual is not a bad thing, but performance based training will always trump standards based. Riding the reset and other methods are like getting the answers for a math test. It works for that easy ass test, but you still suck at math.
Ben, I shoot uspsa pretty competitively and I also do a lotta of our pistol training for my swat teammates. A lot of my teammates don't like the uspsa type training because they fail due to the much faster time hacks. What are some points I can say or demos I can show to get them to see competitive shooting training will make them better police shooters as well. Fast and accurate.
Hot take. Law enforcement training, in general, is a flawed system. USPSA is a performance based competition. There are benchmarks you can achive as a means of measurement of your overall skills level. Law Enforcement training in general is not. It's a goal - or outcome based system. The training is focused teaching a skill, student duplicates that skill and shows a level of proficiency and receives a certificate of training showing they are capable of preforming that skill or task. But no way to measure their skill for any advanced or add on training. Any training officer is lucky enough to get is focused on the goal or outcome, but none focuses on what level of performance the individual officer achieved so they may can base future training on those results. This isn't just a firearms issue. This is a widespread problem in that field. Funding, logistics, and time to get officer out of the field and on a range to receive proper training on their handgun, let alone a rifle, this is a challenge most departments and agencies are dealing with today.
What’s to know? It won’t make you a better shooter. The pressure is what controls the gun. You can superglue the grip to your hand, it will still move around unless you apply the pressure.
Karma is a bitch…I know that SRO had a good life! It’s hard for my pea-brain to understand why anyone who is going to wear a gun belt professionally would ever have a hard time in any qual. Am I that naive to their motives?
All you USPSA shooters, how would your speed & accuracy suffer if you were forced to “qualify “ with a level 3 security holster and a agency issued pistol with a heavy, long, lawyer designed trigger pull ? You can’t fairly compare the loose equipment rules of the action shooting sports to the highly regulated world of the street law enforcement officer that is “mandated” to carry the company gun, in a company issued holster.
You are wrong. It’s called a retention holster, not a security holster. I can do nearly the same with a stock striker gun as I can with a modified one. Lawyers don’t design the trigger. Many agencies allow personal guns as long as you pay for it. Any advanced unit will have better equipment and even if you want to be a patrol 🧚 your entire career, you can make changes to your gun. You think they are going to be able to tell you changed some springs or shoe? No.
hot take if you shoot like a stormtrooper, maybe you shouldn't be one. change jobs, go aim a firehose or see if you can hit the slot on a mailbox with some junk mail.
They rarely ever need it. Being a firefighter/paramedic requires getting educated. Saving a life takes more skill than taking one. The post office only hires dei types.
I think instructors are “afraid “ to have their students missing the target for the sake of growing because they feel that reflects badly on them as the instructor 🤷🏼♂️
That’s a good point they might not even know why they dislike it so much” But it’s common sense it makes sense from someone who’s training;no they never are allowed to ever run there gun fast and ever feeeeeeel what that succession brings to attention,focus,strength,and also nerves… the person who can say oh ya it felt crazy to the person of i don’t know how that feels like is already at an advantage by simple EXPERIENCE… for example one time on the range free range on a farm at liberty to whatever,maybe say 3 weeks into ever shooting I had one of those oh shit almost fudged my self for good there moments. when I thought the gun was empty lol ended up shooting from the hip hitting the berm I might add,but the sudden change of volume concussion to my ears had me almost wondering if I had shot my face off lol especially since out there with out restriction on private property I would opt to not wear any ear pro for a more raw training of life reality training in a sense of noise over safety ear shooting style of practice an let me tell you to have those nerves experienced an under myself I literally experienced the potential lethality of what I was doing an bam i got so serious in my training from then on. the fear of the unknown once known is the road to achievement I’d like to say here and of course your well aware of that your common sense intelligent way of being has led you to achieve. Also not saying that one should experience a range danger to ever be ahead of the game but then again kinda helps never do that again lol
@@FirstLast94671 yes on the nd which i might add was my one an only nd that i needed to never do it again an no from the start i wasnt wearing ear pro unless i couldnt go to the farm id go to a indoor shooting range which of course have rules. I mean lets be honest nobody will ever be wearing ear pro in a real life scenerio an also you cant shoot steel in an indoor range so outdoors no ear pro is the way to go id say
@@elijahperry781 ive had ringing in my ears ever since i can remember even in elementary school i would have some form of high pitched bell going off in my head haha whats cool is if you focus on the ringing it gets really loud lol hahahaha
"Maybe they're stupid.....". 😂😂😂😂
More like a fish out of water. What do you think Elon Musk's accelerator time would be after 2 weeks of practice?
Cops are low level government workers for the most part- like garbage men. They are not high level people. Should it be that way, ideally not, but it is what it is.
I'll share a humorous anecdote about speed. Years ago my cousin helped me study for the Morse Code exam for a Technician License. I had to master 5 words per minute. After some weeks of study and practice, we drove to Detroit where I sat for the exam. And. It. Was. So. Slow. So slow. Afterward he told me he had drilled me at closer to 8-10 wpm, so the 5 wpm test ended up being a nothing-burger and I aced it without even breathing hard. Lol! Good for him. He was sneaky, but it worked.
@@user-sc2ye2rj6g Not a job. Just a license to operate amateur radio equipment. Back in the day you had to learn morse code to earn the license.
@@Jonathan906QSL QSL QSL. Aahhhhh them were the days Jonathan.
In my 30+ years in Law Enforcement, over 20 as a Firearms Instructor, my experiences are that the member that struggles to pass qualifications exerts NO effort to pass. They reluctantly remove the weapon from it’s holster only when required to at qual time. Thry may even shoew disdain for the weapon itself. Even with sound instruction, they resist new concepts. They just go through the motions and hope they pass so they can get the hell out of the range until next qual where they will repeat the process. I really like your approach, and I think that it would be beneficial for the average shooter that wants to get better. The member that will show attention to detail and put forth a solid effort. The shooter that wants not to pass but ace the qual and has yet to do so. That’s where I see promise for this technique of instruction. Thanks
🇺🇸👮🏻♂️👍🏻
While I was not a LE range instructor, I agree with your assessment esp guys assigned to the detective bureau.
The problem I saw was problem shooters only took the weapon out of the holster during qualification. Usually once per year. They don't practice or build competence, but they carry a gun 40 hours a week.
Exactly
Nor do they clean them…but then again neither does Ben😅
@@OrionCorsari That is true in the case of training XD but ben does specify that for his match and carry guns he carries them more routinely
@@OrionCorsariIt’s huge different between not cleaning a gun but shooting it every few days and not cleaning a gun and left it in the holster for a year.
7:00
I'm not an instructor, but from a students point of view...
I recently tried some "go fast without worrying about hits" drills for the first time. I learned
A. I have a bad flinch when I "really go for it"
B. It was overwhelming, but I feel better equipped to try again and have a baseline assessment now. (even if it's bad, I know where I'm at)
"Seeing what it felt like" was definitely valuable; I found something i can work on. Also... it was fun.
SRO video coming soon...
As LE for the last 16 years and firearms instructor for 9 this is something new to me as I was indoctrinated to “slow down and get your hits” way of thinking. That said, since I’ve started shooting USPSA and have taken one of your courses I have started incorporating this style of learning for troubled shooters. It does seem to help. On the flip side, all the old fudd firearm instructors think I’m retarded for this approach, even though I can out shoot any one of our cadre and the results always improve. Out of the agencies I’ve worked for there is zero training occurring and all they care about is passing the qual. Most cops are shooting less than 200 rounds a year of agency ammo if that puts it into any perspective.
There was a Chief in OH who made all his people shoot 15-20 rounds a month and he claimed it improved scores.
I'll never understand the mindset of a person who doesn't want to be proficient with a tool they carry everyday that can potentially save their life one day
But they find hours to play video games.
Its such a small part of the job some people don't care
because there's a million more important things for a police officer that can actually get them in trouble? It is not their job to protect anyone - they fought all the way to the supreme court for that( South v. Maryland (1856)). Only a fool would believe police are there to save anyones life but their own.
@@um4668 it's as small of a part of the job as you percieve it to be. everything a cop does is backed up by the fact that they can use lethal force if need be
Majority of cops will go through their entire 25-30 year career without ever firing their weapon in the line of duty. This is the reason why to so many training with a firearm is not at the top of their priority list, which many times comes back to bite them in the ass.
If the training doesn't work, fire them if they can't qualify. Hire someone who can qualify. The public deserves competent police officers.
while there are some great ones out there, the majority of police officers in this country are incompetent. thats not just in their gun handling either.
Hard to find and retain good quality people in any line of work. Police officers is a very high demand job and typically does not pay very well. You are not going to attract the best for the worst salary.
Spoken like someone who hasn’t had to hire officers in this environment.
"The majority of police officers are incompetent " please tell me how many of the almost 1 million cops you've observed work on a daily basis.
Ignoring the comments from those that have never had to train thousands of officers, I'll talk about Ben's thoughts here. I'm liking them! Reverse engineering the thought practice process. I'm going to explore this with our forward thinking staff
This brings up an interesting point that I vaguely remember you touching on in the past… a lot of mil / LE guys are stuck in this mentality of “every shot they fire needs to be treated as if it’s real world”, a lot of that “competitive shooting leads to bad habits that will get you killed in the streets” mentality. Whether it’s the students or the instructors, I don’t know, but somebody needs to learn the lesson that it’s possible to train specific skills without there being a direct, real-world analogue for that specific drill. What you should take away from the “four second bill drill with zero shot accountability” drill is a stepping stone to more effectively shooting faster, not “in case of emergency, you can just mag dump in the direction of your target, don’t worry about what you hit”. If cops aren’t smart enough to grasp that distinction, then maybe they’re not smart enough to be carrying a gun in the first place.
They just need heartbeats in patrol vehicles at this point.
Retired FLETC certified instructor and Rangemaster Basic and Advanced. The issue with Agencies is several.
1 most agency instructors are simply safety monitors and test administrators. They can’t diagnose shooters
2 Administrative types aren’t gun people and only care about minimum standards and often dumb down courses making them easier for the masses
3 Outside special teams most don’t care about training there is a 10% 80% 10% breakdown top 10 best shooters and go to training on own time and dime. 80 in the middle a few good ones but the majority pass every year by only a few points and quip “good enough til next year” and the bottom 10 are the ones that can’t qualify and the administration refuses to fire them these days and just makes the course easier.
I won’t even get into the local County Sheriff Minutia in my retirement job I run into on the firearms side. Why we have several Officer involved shootings turn into utter abortions on body cams!
I love the experts on here who have no idea what it’s like trying to hire police officers right now. People aren’t getting fired for failing a qual, there is literally no one to replace them. We can’t even replace retiring officers fast enough. It’s way cheaper to spend extra money training someone to get them to pass than it is to try and recruit someone else. Even if we did fire a recruit for not passing a qual, if we find someone to replace them (a big if) that person is probably going to struggle. Agencies have to get better at training the recruits we get.
Just think how difficult it will be in ten years. Face tattoos, DUIs…all will be acceptable
@@HWG-wm8ldIt's pretty much that way in Los Angeles. The LAPD and LASD look like a bunch of cholos from South of the border, and act like it too. The only difference between a gangbanger and LEO nowadays is one chose to join the bigger and more successful Mafia/gang.
or......just have less police.... I would rather have that then some itchy trigger finger zit popper.
@@randylahey2242 But if you don't want a police state, you support BLM and Communism... Somehow...
@@randylahey2242 That would work if the stupid Karens wouldn't call police for every single inconvenience, but at this point, people cannot resolve their own issues such as disobedient kids, loud music from their neighbnors, and minor traffic accidents. Stupid people bog down the system and still demand "faster" police response because they pay taxes.
Anything works if you do it slow. Gonna steal that!
I agree. The principle applies to many different skills that can be trained, put students in a more difficult circumstance than what they're trying to accomplish in reality and then dial back down and there are often light bulb moments that happen for students when they realize what they're capable of. That hard part is getting them to then train to achieve those light bulb moments on a consistent basis and then continue to improve over the long term.
Cool idea. So basically get them to produce the Outcome (their current fastest speed/goal) then go back and focus on Process (One shot returns, Doubles, etc. So they learn how to do it fast and accurate)
I agree and see the value in what you describe as taking away the accountability. I’ve actually done something similar with trainees in different classes and at times, remediation. I’ve either completely removed targets to let them shoot into the berm to work on speed while watching the sights and practicing fundamentals. I’ve also covered targets with trash bags and made them go faster. Many times people are surprised that they are still on paper and didn’t completely suck when the bags come off.
This is the biggest change that needs to happen in law-enforcement training. The idea of getting them to practice at speed escapes most trainers/officers. This is something me and my staff started doing the past few years was pushing officers past their comfort zone into something they’ve never done before and then learn how to diagnose and fix issues they would have and ultimately get better. Very few took it and ran with it while the majority continued down the usual path and maybe get marginally better. We always told them You’re never going to slow down your shooting in a gunfight and will probably fire the gun faster than you ever have before, so why not figure out that in practice. Officers fire at what we like to call the speed of panic, because that’s essentially what they are doing because they’ve never done it before. The hard sad truth is that most police officers don’t want nor care to get better. Even the ones that have previously been in a shooting, something we like to call Survivor biased or it worked for me that time I’m good enough. Most police officers that survive a gunfight are simply lucky. There is so much that needs to change in the law-enforcement training community. However, I don’t think it ever will because of everything from terrible leadership to poor mentality and expectations.
"A lot of firearms trainers don't like this kind of training" that's because a lot of ineffective and legacy firearms trainers are afraid of failing. Their fear blocks them and their students from experiencing shooting and from truly learning.
A15 yard Bill Drill in 2.5 seconds? A competition shooter can do that. Explains why I’m not competitive 😆
If I heard him right , A and C zone hits. Not just A zone, so much more doable for most people that carry a gun 40hrs a week.
From open carry holster that's pretty attainable. Like a few hours of bill drills if you already have a halfway good draw
I need a Ben Stoeger class
You got red shirts that barely make 6 shots A/C 15 yards in 10 seconds. If they can't do it - they're not getting somebody else to do it. Taking away the accuracy - but these instructors live by words like "every bullet has a lawyer attached to it" and "speed is fine, accuracy is final." They don't know. This does not compute - they'll say they have to train people that don't want to be here or they train to the lowest common denominator and they'll say things like competition will get you kilt on the streez. If you want a cop to shoot 6 rounds to the A/C from 15 yards in 10 seconds, you'll need instructors that can do it in at least 5. They need to know what it really takes to shoot and most of them just regurgitate the same thing somebody said dating back to Jeff Cooper.
Very good points, my agency is issuing a speed and accuracy challenge this quarter, as red shirts we had to do it first and earn the coins. Our times and hit factors are posted for all to see. Helps keep us accountable, and avoid the situation of "those who can't do, teach."
@@BillyBob-ov5ef That is awesome.
You know about halfway through the explanation of the “make em chute fast” argument I was in fervent disagreement, and I was so confident in my disagreement I wasn’t gonna say anything I was just gonna move on with my life. I didn’t figure the cat who couldn’t pass a police pistol qual, which are normally laughably easy, would see very much or get very much out of shooting faster than their ability to make accurate hits. But then he said (a rough approximation) “they’ll see SOMETHING, a flash of their sights, they might even see their sights not do what they want every time but when you raise the time from 4 seconds back to the 10 second standard it’ll feel like an eternity for them and they might be able to apply some fundamentals” I was like ah beans. I’ve been foiled again by the steggler. Who woulda guessed that the guy with 20+ years of firearms training and a couple big boi titles would know a thing or two. Sometimes you hate to be wrong, sometimes it just be that way.
Such a great video. Even experienced shooters develop an aversion to allowing themselves to miss (I’m talking about myself, of course). You need to actively remind yourself that if you’re always hitting, you aren’t growing as a shooter, and you probably haven’t found the edge.
Man, that tip about making them run faster then reigning it back in is great. I've helped some buddies try to get better under time constraints and this would really help. When I shoot drills with harder par times and then shoot drills I'm either better at or have looser par times, I feel like I have all the time in the world. I don't know why I haven't thought of that before.
absolutely! i can 100% relate to this. i train l.e. and i run them past their limit or whats considered "accountable speed" and next thing you know, they acknowledge that their own pandoras box has been opened pertaining to their own personal level and they always say they really do feel more comfortable and confident shooting faster. now they know they CAN get used to learning how to keep up with that front sight and more higher level fundamentals.
3o years of teaching LEO types from 2 weeks to qualify to over 4 months to qualify has taught me the vast majority of Instructor types on the line only push the same grip, sight, jerking the trigger, etc., mentality without considering the individual and their perception of what is going on when they pick up the gun and shoot. I was notorious for getting the problem children from SAC down to street cops and newbies. Twenty minutes and most would shoot 94 to 100 for 3 consecutive record runs. The typical comment would be that they were never told much of what I taught when they went through Quantico or any other police academy. They wanted to know why. Answer - most instructors qualify for the certificate, but don't really know how to analyze a student and teach. They look good and are nice folks, but it ain't there. Sometimes the student needs to be so frustrated that they now decide to listen and understand what you're trying to explain to them. Others have preconceived notions from somebody else or UA-cam, etc. So, they don't really listen. They hear ya, but they don't listen. Ladies will usually pick up the concepts, target analysis, and corrective action far quicker than men. Their lack of preconceived notions, etc., make them easier to correct. Rob Leatham, Rob Vogel, Jerry Miculek, you, have great ideas learned through failures over the years. Students don't have that, so you have to quickly analyze the fundamentals and instill in them the notion that certain things are key to shooting high scores - sight alignment/picture with constant follow-through. Rob Leatham tells it bluntly by saying great target picture, sight picture, etc., is worthless if the muzzle moves. The student hears that but doesn't comprehend because they haven't broken down what their problem is and it might just be as simple as follow-through or staging the trigger pull because they want the perfect sight picture/allgnment. I still help folks who want the help after 17 years of retirement. Pure speed and accuracy on IDPA type targets is a different level for most. They want to get there, but they don't want to do the work to figure out why they aren't shooting well. Keep it up. I enjoy the thought process you and others go through in attacking different problems. It's still educational even at my age. Which sucks!!!
Agree 100%. It’s an experience thing especially with a new or novice(ish) shooter. As far as LEO’s go it’s more likely than not an Agency issue rather than an individual one. Have worked with plenty of LEO/MIL and wish I had a nickel for every time someone said ‘nobody ever explained that to me’…most want to be better but the resources aren’t made available.
That’s fair, but some will never get it. How many students do you have to stop every 5 shots to correct their grip? Too many
Ben, my favorite training drill is of course the john wick drill you put out some time back. When will we see a instructor zero drill to “train for the streets”
This is absolute gold.
You're the second person I've heard recommend this
The first one went so far as to recommend starting out just shooting into the berm until you get your speed up, then bringing in targets and making them gradually smaller
I think the issue has more to do with the officer. In my experience the officer has to want to improve, not just to pass but overall improve their performance and ability. If they don’t they will always seek to be just good enough. No instructor can care more about the student performance than the student. If the student only wants to give the minimum that is all an instructor will get.
I've never personally seen someone failing a qual, successfully be trained to "pass the qual". Even if they some how pass this time, they are right back to struggling to qual next year.
In my experience, the people struggling to qual typically don't take an interest in guns. They won't dry fire. Won't go to the range unless forced. Idk how you get that officer even competent enough to reliably qual each year.
@@Platoon_Guide but even here, you say over weeks, meaning they were willing to put in some work outside of just qual day. The guys I'm around will not put in any time apart from qual day, then expect you to coach them to a passing score in a couple hours.
The real crime is some police departments only having one qual a year.
@@jsidwell06 agreed. I think quarterly quals should be the bare minimum.
Best I’ve had at 7 yards with my EDC is 2.36. I never tried 15. Doubt I could do that one. Don’t think many in our COF nightlife’s could either even with their comp guns at 15.
Dude, that speed could earn you a Light Pin from Gabe White (assuming your times on the split bill drill, etc were equivalent), and that ain't shabby. I think that Ben may have underestimated the difficulty of the Bill Drill at 15 yards. And I'm really hating myself for missing his classes last time we taught at Karl Rehn's A Zone range.😢
We used to call this "KISS" Keep It Simple Stupid. Break something down into simple steps so a person can understand and see what it takes to do something. You keep adding additional steps or concentrate on a separate step until they understand or can do that. Finally put it all together and they will usually figure out that it really isn't as hard as they thought it was.
I've actually done really similar things with a couple of my friends after they asked me how I could shoot so fast(compared to them). With a timer, speed them up until they're uncomfortable, go a little more, hold there, and then bring it back down, and now they're way more comfortable going at least a little faster than they started with
You don’t train for the test(qual) you train to get better in general. The test should be used as just a random assessment to judge overall progression. Will post a video responding…
As long as it's not done on a sloped roof. I'm told that's too dangerous, even for professionals.
@Ben Stoeger - @Matt Burkett had me do JUST what you suggest in the 90's!!. "Just GOOOOO FAST!!!! " then back off just a touch... wow faster than I was! I think it's that it teaches you to "see Faster". If that makes sense? No reason that would work for teaching people to pass the Qual. 😉
Interesting methodology. I have been personally practicing towards a very high accuracy standard and have kinda gotten stuck speed wise. Fortunately I have a range that will actually accommodate drawing from the holster and shooting fast. Very well may try incorporating some of this philosophy into my personal practice and see if I can shave some time off
Dry practice
I'm the same.
That doesn't look like a G Wagon.
I appreciate this video. First thing, I think you have solid points, and as long as the ammo allocation supports it, this is probably the best way to do it. Most of the places with a selection process, like you mentioned, have a pretty generous ammo budget in my experience. In my job, you are basically given 90 rounds a year. 45 rounds for the pre-qualification practice, and 45 rounds for the qualification. There is not much wiggle room for experimenting with that Imo.
90 rds per year? Is that correct?
@@HWG-wm8ldlong story short, yes.
🇺🇸
Hey Ben, video idea:
What are your thoughts on Steve Anderson and mental management?
Ive had 2 SRO’s die within 30 days. Sub 500rds..
the shop I buy them from will swap them out if less than 30 days old.
They are all master/GM shooters (Aim Surplus). They told me 1 out of 10 dies in a similar manner.
Reticle starts drifting/not holding 0.
I see a SRO vs. Garage floor video coming in theaters near you.😊
The problem is that police in general are not gun nuts, that is to say that they are not passionate about the culture, history, philosophy, and implementation of firearms I'd even venture to say that many if not most dont even really like guns they are just tools that far too many are not even expecting to ever have to use in the field.
Most are doing it for the money and benefits and could care less about what the job used to mean.
Food for thought.
I really wanna hear the SRO story now.
I gots ta know.😅
Everything breaks. Not a big deal.
Anyone ever tell you you look like Magruber? And you drive a Miata 🤣
When cops carried 357 6 shot revolvers they had a better hit percentage than nowadays. Obviously it would be preposterous to suggest they go back to carrying revolvers, but definitely something needs to be done about their low performance. Scary to think a cop is just as likely to kill a loved one as a criminal.
There weren’t nearly as many cops and definitely not as many girls back then.
Not going to be an astronaut type shooter?
Nah...I've known plenty of space shuttle door gunners that could barely pass a qual.
First !!!
Also I need you to do another class in Florida please. I missed the last one. And I don’t see any in the near future on your event calendar.
You’ll never attend a class
@@HWG-wm8ld why is that ? Did he say something about never doing a class down here again ?
It really is scary how brutally awful some officers are at shooting. Half my academy class had never touched a handgun before and they all passed the qual with a pretty decent margin. The idea of an officer struggling to pass the qual is quite terrifying when you understand just how bad you have to be
Find your way into a good unit.
Damn was about to order an SRO. . .
Sure you were. There is nothing wrong with the SRO, everything breaks eventually. Trijicon takes care of their customers. If it’s out of warranty they will still help out.
Agencies end up with an i dont care, find a way to pass them. Law enforcement is desperate for bodies
I can guarantee you that had I been instructed in the manner that you described, I would have progressed much further, much faster.
I’ve done what you suggest and a variation where I tell them I want them to keep their eye (or eyes) open and just watch the gun rise and settle down the advance to watching the front sight move up and down.
Mostly it’s just trying all these things to try and get them over the hump with whatever clicks for them.
Or maybe they’re stupid. 😂
Remoil qual passers assemble!!!!
I hate the "training for the qual" mindset. Not many quals out there require you to shoot in a realistic way. A good baseline qual is not a bad thing, but performance based training will always trump standards based. Riding the reset and other methods are like getting the answers for a math test. It works for that easy ass test, but you still suck at math.
@@Platoon_Guide because quals are just a test, not training. Although some agencies seem to think they are training.
You should ask Cyelee for a Ghost or Bull X Pro to replace to SRO.
Ben, I shoot uspsa pretty competitively and I also do a lotta of our pistol training for my swat teammates. A lot of my teammates don't like the uspsa type training because they fail due to the much faster time hacks. What are some points I can say or demos I can show to get them to see competitive shooting training will make them better police shooters as well. Fast and accurate.
If they can’t see that that will help, they don’t care enough to try anything more than the minimum.
Or just be like NYPD with 12lb triggers and a qual that gives you all the time in the world
This sounds like Police Academy, the Movie
Will you share what happened with the SRO when/if you find out? Genuinely curious as I'm in the market for one.
It broke, like anything else will do. If reliability is your concern, the rmr is what you need.
Acorn cop aced the qual. Just sayin.....
They got bonus points for the tires.
maybe stupid... hahahahahahah I love it
Hot take. Law enforcement training, in general, is a flawed system.
USPSA is a performance based competition. There are benchmarks you can achive as a means of measurement of your overall skills level. Law Enforcement training in general is not. It's a goal - or outcome based system. The training is focused teaching a skill, student duplicates that skill and shows a level of proficiency and receives a certificate of training showing they are capable of preforming that skill or task. But no way to measure their skill for any advanced or add on training.
Any training officer is lucky enough to get is focused on the goal or outcome, but none focuses on what level of performance the individual officer achieved so they may can base future training on those results. This isn't just a firearms issue. This is a widespread problem in that field.
Funding, logistics, and time to get officer out of the field and on a range to receive proper training on their handgun, let alone a rifle, this is a challenge most departments and agencies are dealing with today.
Have you tried Bul Armory Tac?
Yes, have you
@@HWG-wm8ld yeh I have a Tac 4.25”. Love this gun
Took a class from Ben. I failed the Qual 😭
Something about leading a horse to water......lol
@@scottrousseau297 don't look in it's mouth?
No, you can lead it to water, but you can’t make it THINK.
Btw, what's your competition personal preference:
SRO or Holosun 507Comp.
If you're failing or barely passing the qual you should find a new job. Plain and simple
That would drop more than half of cops and 95% of security. I agree with you 100%.
Can you do a video on your take on stippled Glocks and/or undercuts? Pros and cons
What’s to know? It won’t make you a better shooter. The pressure is what controls the gun. You can superglue the grip to your hand, it will still move around unless you apply the pressure.
@@HWG-wm8ld LOL
Ive had 2 of 4 SROs shit the bed so far 🤪
And drive a Crysler product.
Karma is a bitch…I know that SRO had a good life! It’s hard for my pea-brain to understand why anyone who is going to wear a gun belt professionally would ever have a hard time in any qual. Am I that naive to their motives?
I really want to know how many rounds on the SRO...
All you USPSA shooters, how would your speed & accuracy suffer if you were forced to “qualify “ with a level 3 security holster and a agency issued pistol with a heavy, long, lawyer designed trigger pull ? You can’t fairly compare the loose equipment rules of the action shooting sports to the highly regulated world of the street law enforcement officer that is “mandated” to carry the company gun, in a company issued holster.
You are wrong. It’s called a retention holster, not a security holster. I can do nearly the same with a stock striker gun as I can with a modified one. Lawyers don’t design the trigger. Many agencies allow personal guns as long as you pay for it. Any advanced unit will have better equipment and even if you want to be a patrol 🧚 your entire career, you can make changes to your gun. You think they are going to be able to tell you changed some springs or shoe? No.
hot take if you shoot like a stormtrooper, maybe you shouldn't be one. change jobs, go aim a firehose or see if you can hit the slot on a mailbox with some junk mail.
They rarely ever need it. Being a firefighter/paramedic requires getting educated. Saving a life takes more skill than taking one. The post office only hires dei types.
@@HWG-wm8ld hiring you would be DEI in support of the mentally handicapped
Red dot fan bois extra salty lately 😂 iron sights 4 life ❤
And emojis
@@HWG-wm8ld It got your attention. That's the idea. You're so upset that ppl like me were right all along. Don't cry, it will be ok.
I think instructors are “afraid “ to have their students missing the target for the sake of growing because they feel that reflects badly on them as the instructor 🤷🏼♂️
That’s a good point they might not even know why they dislike it so much” But it’s common sense it makes sense from someone who’s training;no they never are allowed to ever run there gun fast and ever feeeeeeel what that succession brings to attention,focus,strength,and also nerves… the person who can say oh ya it felt crazy to the person of i don’t know how that feels like is already at an advantage by simple EXPERIENCE… for example one time on the range free range on a farm at liberty to whatever,maybe say 3 weeks into ever shooting I had one of those oh shit almost fudged my self for good there moments. when I thought the gun was empty lol ended up shooting from the hip hitting the berm I might add,but the sudden change of volume concussion to my ears had me almost wondering if I had shot my face off lol especially since out there with out restriction on private property I would opt to not wear any ear pro for a more raw training of life reality training in a sense of noise over safety ear shooting style of practice an let me tell you to have those nerves experienced an under myself I literally experienced the potential lethality of what I was doing an bam i got so serious in my training from then on. the fear of the unknown once known is the road to achievement I’d like to say here and of course your well aware of that your common sense intelligent way of being has led you to achieve. Also not saying that one should experience a range danger to ever be ahead of the game but then again kinda helps never do that again lol
Wait so you had an ND and started shooting without ear pro because of it?
@@FirstLast94671 yes on the nd which i might add was my one an only nd that i needed to never do it again an no from the start i wasnt wearing ear pro unless i couldnt go to the farm id go to a indoor shooting range which of course have rules. I mean lets be honest nobody will ever be wearing ear pro in a real life scenerio an also you cant shoot steel in an indoor range so outdoors no ear pro is the way to go id say
@@zelevenzelevenz9823 losing hearing is one thing, getting tinnitus will make you want to pull a Kurt Cobain. It's not worth it.
@@elijahperry781 ive had ringing in my ears ever since i can remember even in elementary school i would have some form of high pitched bell going off in my head haha whats cool is if you focus on the ringing it gets really loud lol hahahaha
Some of them are definitely stupid.
why would we want cops to be better shots?