Its so tempting to run a pure melee list in LAG these days - but dedicating 260 points for 2 ballistus has been so worth it. Makes your opponent respect your backline shooting options while having to deal with the rest of your melee units across the rest of the board. Goes without saying but I feel the ballistus is the best dreadnought out there right now - cannot understand how the redemptor is still 210....
Another great analysis from the Blood Angels Commander! Keep up the good work. Just got the parts I need off ebay to finish my magnetized predator "counts as vindicator" loadouts. Still refusing to by firstborn tanks new at this point, haha.
This is such a fantastic video. Figuring out what fire support to include has been the toughest part of my list building and having all this information and damage layed out is so helpful
Another great video John! I'm finding these so useful as a newish 40k/Blood Angels player experimenting with list building. Cheap scoring units next in the series? 🙂
John! you are our Sanguinius! I love these in depth master class vids helps me alot! makes me a bit guilty for not being a member of the channel but ill be soon as I'm done with my warhammer minis expenditures XD im currently building my 2k army and your vids makes me save and make good decisions on my purchases!
Great video. I'm mostly a CSM player, so seeing the Land Raider, Predator, and Vindicator compared to SM choicea is nice. Having to pop transports to get to the guys inside is always key.
i waited for this video and now it´s here ! There are a lot of Tanks to choose from and now i know better on what to take, also the math you do is great too.
Destructors for life!! Also worth noting sure 3 lancers is very good but you can take 3 predators/3 ballistus and a jump int squad for the same points.
Good video. Feeling happier for suggesting 3 Ballistus Dreads in your stream the other day. I also like your Predator Destructor argument for Terminators etc. I also did theory hammer the other day, "What do I need to get Terminators to their invun? -2". So that tallied with the Destructors and playing against Death Guard I get why you like them. However I am nervous of them going AWOL as you and others have said. Although if I was playing Death Guard Termies regularly I think I would get some and use them.
An honorable mention would be A 10 man squad or 10 man killteam and add Grayfax. They wreck kill rigs and most of the lone ops your opponent is relying on for buffs and actions. Personally I lean towards the killteam because they can al be equipped with multi wound weapons
Hi, John! Chat. Sorry for not been there, it was rougg couple of months. Back to the point. I strongly dislike Vendicators, they areunrelyable, d6 damage plus 24 range is bad. I do agree if you have something to fill the LR it is autochoice. I do believe that 2 lancers and destructor is best choice if you cant use LR.
Fantastic video John. I bought the Redeemer/Crusader and the Repulsor Executioner for the rule of cool and it used to be ok with transporting 7. I could get my Bladeguard and Judiciar in and it only felt worth the points value just now. I have to find away to make them both work as I don't want to be splashing any more cash after getting the fomo box :( Any tips would be appreciate from my Brothers in Blood.
I get why you're not keen on the Repulsor executioner. I run mine with 3 Eradicators in it and I love it. That gun is awesome. I'm running a Lancer, Executioner, Repulsor and Brutalis. Gives me a good spread.
Thanks for the video, John. I think the numbers here for the Lancer may be deceptively low without the wound and damage re-roll if im understanding you correctly. For example, when I use UnitCrunch with 1 each re-roll hit, wound, and damage rolls it spits out 8 wounds against a Land Raider, not 5.6 as you have shown. Am I misunderstanding something?
Predator gets extra points for being an awesome model imo. I wish I had a couple of the first generation. I suppose the heresy models are kinda close to that
Should throw a column in for "Damage per 100 points" or something, so you have an idea how much damage output for cost you are getting. Sure, Vindicator > others....but is it better point for point?
I just tried a gladiator lancer alongside a storm speeder thunder strike. Fit my needs for a game against custodes but I've yet to run them against a more armor heavy list
I've been running a Lancer and Ballistus in a 1k league, and enemy armour has rarely been surviving past round 2. Predators feel so precarious in the codex at the moment, but I'd love one. I have a couple of friends with the Leviathan Ballistus sitting in their pile of shame, I'm tempted to see if anyone wants me to take one of their hands. I'd love to see a multi-part Ballistus with autocannon option release.
I'm building my first lists for BA, with the "mix and versatile" approach you talked about in the DC Army Set video and after seeing this I'm a bit hesitant for the long range support: I really the predators for their versatility but I am indeed concerned about their AT capability if compared to the gladiator lancers. Considering that right now for my collection I got DC army set and combat patrol + dante, do you have a suggestion in terms of what should be a good choice as first purchase in the AT section? Thank you very much!
the problem is that when you really need anti tank (i.e. vs knights, tau, daemon vehicles, various monsters) the targets always have 4+ or 5+ invulnerable save. All these marine platforms get dwarfed and cannot do any reliable damage while they get picked up in w turn by weapons of absurd damage.
My predator destructor and annihilator both bounced right off Necrons last night and got dealt with by turn 3. Still managed to outscore my buddy but lascannons into invul+FNP just don’t cut it.
@ I don’t know just yet - nothing went to plan in my game last night as my sang guard also bounced off a blob wraiths (used red rampage and succumbed to red thirst with Dante!) and were dealt with. Vindicators would’ve been really nice but they’re also expensive. I ended up winning on mobility and a handful of good secondary draws but it was pretty dire straits.
I'm sad now if I'm understanding this correctly but after looking at the impulsor data sheet I did not know I was not allowed to put any jump pack models in them. Guess Dante and sang guard are out in the cold now...
Not gonna lie. In a year i will sell my both Baal Predators. I am done with firstborn models. So only real option to my 2 ballistus is to buy 1-2 lancers. I also have Landspeeder for Baal combo. Don't know what to do with it in future. Is any army realy plaing any version of it?
@ba_commander I do think the durability of the land raider is in a weird spot. For most of the space marines vehicles, honestly. Between smoke and/or AoC, I do find them consistently hard to kill, though. The dual role of them is just so powerful, to me. Losing power fists on our jump company, Terminators or Aggressors are the only way to get consistent power fists. Both fit into a land raider, and it's basically the only way to get them into a fight since we also lost the lib dread, and we get a supplemental set of lascannons. At the very worst, they blow up the raider t1, and I at least protected my termies from whatever killed the raider and got an extra 3" of movement.
Eradicators. Repulsors both regular and exterminators. They both have tons of anti-infrantry shots. The repulsor has 30 +. Land raider regular has 4 lascannon shots. Str 16 shots from the repulsor exterminators. Then you have centurion assault squads that would get str 12 on the charge. Plus the bolter shots that could potentially have up to 18 shots for infantry. Give them multi meltas. The repulsor exterminators have 72 inch range on the str 16 2 shots ap4 and d6 +4 da.age. so at a minimum thats 10 wounds on a land raider and it gets a 6 plus save . A jump pack chaplain can give another 1str to a squad of sanguinary. Msking theur attacks str 9. You also have terminators on a charge at str 10.
1) paint hazard stripes on vindicator dozer blade
2) drive into engagement range
3) keep shooting
4)???
5) profit
Best comment.
Hazard stripes? In my loyalist paint scheme?
@ YES. 👍 YES
Exactly correct Turkey!
@@ViciousSkittleI do
Thank you for clearing up this issue. Every son of Sanguinius needs to tackle this issue so our guys can go in and dispatch the infantry.
Very welcome
Its so tempting to run a pure melee list in LAG these days - but dedicating 260 points for 2 ballistus has been so worth it. Makes your opponent respect your backline shooting options while having to deal with the rest of your melee units across the rest of the board.
Goes without saying but I feel the ballistus is the best dreadnought out there right now - cannot understand how the redemptor is still 210....
The redemptor was definitely a lot better at 200
210 is just awkward
We still need that Reiver vid John 😁. Seriously though this video is useful for most marine chapters and very useful.
Noted!
BA Commander back with another feature length tactics video.
I’ve been leaning towards 2 x Ballistus + 1 x Lancer. This video has provided some excellent maths to help with my decision to finally try this out.
A hammerstrike instead of a lancer could also be a good pick. The +1 to wound would help carry the dreads
Another great analysis from the Blood Angels Commander! Keep up the good work. Just got the parts I need off ebay to finish my magnetized predator "counts as vindicator" loadouts. Still refusing to by firstborn tanks new at this point, haha.
This is such a fantastic video. Figuring out what fire support to include has been the toughest part of my list building and having all this information and damage layed out is so helpful
Another great video John! I'm finding these so useful as a newish 40k/Blood Angels player experimenting with list building. Cheap scoring units next in the series? 🙂
ua-cam.com/video/KOqfoF0zkGA/v-deo.htmlsi=doYaMjqT2x4WYzp0
John! you are our Sanguinius! I love these in depth master class vids helps me alot! makes me a bit guilty for not being a member of the channel but ill be soon as I'm done with my warhammer minis expenditures XD im currently building my 2k army and your vids makes me save and make good decisions on my purchases!
Just watching and commenting is great support! Thanks for the kids words!
It almost a sleepless night to trying to sleep...but it's afternoon UK time and the scot of all scotsmen makes a video....I'll sleep when I'm dead lol
Got a list hear John, enjoy Watching all your videos, they help me get painting. Very informative and helpful it is much appreciated.
Tha Baal Boys (1995 points)
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Liberator Assault Group
CHARACTERS
Astorath (105 points)
• 1x The Executioner’s Axe
Captain with Jump Pack (95 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Heavy bolt pistol
• Enhancement: Rage-fuelled Warrior
Chaplain (85 points)
• 1x Absolvor bolt pistol
1x Crozius arcanum
• Enhancement: Speed of the Primarch
DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Impulsor (80 points)
• 1x Armoured hull
1x Ironhail heavy stubber
1x Shield dome
2x Storm bolter
OTHER DATASHEETS
Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs (90 points)
• 1x Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack
• 1x Plasma pistol
1x Power fist
• 4x Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
• 4x Astartes chainsword
3x Heavy bolt pistol
1x Plasma pistol
Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs (90 points)
• 1x Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack
• 1x Plasma pistol
1x Power fist
• 4x Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
• 4x Astartes chainsword
3x Heavy bolt pistol
1x Plasma pistol
Ballistus Dreadnought (130 points)
• 1x Armoured feet
1x Ballistus lascannon
1x Ballistus missile launcher
1x Twin storm bolter
Ballistus Dreadnought (130 points)
• 1x Armoured feet
1x Ballistus lascannon
1x Ballistus missile launcher
1x Twin storm bolter
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180 points)
• 1x Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant
• 1x Heavy bolt pistol
1x Master-crafted power weapon
• 5x Bladeguard Veteran
• 5x Heavy bolt pistol
5x Master-crafted power weapon
Death Company Marines with Jump Packs (240 points)
• 10x Death Company Marine with Jump Packs
• 5x Astartes chainsword
2x Eviscerator
6x Heavy bolt pistol
2x Inferno pistol
2x Plasma pistol
3x Power fist
Gladiator Lancer (160 points)
• 1x Armoured hull
2x Fragstorm grenade launcher
1x Icarus rocket pod
1x Ironhail heavy stubber
1x Lancer laser destroyer
Infiltrator Squad (100 points)
• 1x Infiltrator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Marksman bolt carbine
• 4x Infiltrator
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
4x Marksman bolt carbine
Outrider Squad (80 points)
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Heavy bolt pistol
1x Twin bolt rifle
• 2x Outrider
• 2x Astartes chainsword
2x Heavy bolt pistol
2x Twin bolt rifle
Outrider Squad (80 points)
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Heavy bolt pistol
1x Twin bolt rifle
• 2x Outrider
• 2x Astartes chainsword
2x Heavy bolt pistol
2x Twin bolt rifle
Outrider Squad (80 points)
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Heavy bolt pistol
1x Twin bolt rifle
• 2x Outrider
• 2x Astartes chainsword
2x Heavy bolt pistol
2x Twin bolt rifle
Sanguinary Guard (270 points)
• 6x Sanguinary Guard
• 4x Angelus boltgun
6x Encarmine blade
2x Inferno pistol
1x Sanguinary Banner
Ok so I had some possible changes and would like your opinion, thanks.
Change astaroth for a jump chap and add dante instead of captain.
Lose an enhancement on the capt for another jump assult squad.
Take a unit of scouts or surppressors instead 3rd outrider squad.
Open to any criticism.
Exported with App Version: v1.22.0 (51), Data Version: v488
Great video. I'm mostly a CSM player, so seeing the Land Raider, Predator, and Vindicator compared to SM choicea is nice. Having to pop transports to get to the guys inside is always key.
i waited for this video and now it´s here ! There are a lot of Tanks to choose from and now i know better on what to take, also the math you do is great too.
Glad I could help!
Destructors for life!! Also worth noting sure 3 lancers is very good but you can take 3 predators/3 ballistus and a jump int squad for the same points.
The balistus finally hit that sweet spot that makes them a near must take in my lists
Thank you this video was so informative for my blood angel army
Wooo name drop :D Hopefully will finishthe second one in the next couple of weeks
My list has 2 ballistas and 2 whirlwinds. Perfectly compliments the assault elements.
Another cracking exploration! Thanks Commander!
My pleasure!
Good video. Feeling happier for suggesting 3 Ballistus Dreads in your stream the other day. I also like your Predator Destructor argument for Terminators etc. I also did theory hammer the other day, "What do I need to get Terminators to their invun? -2". So that tallied with the Destructors and playing against Death Guard I get why you like them. However I am nervous of them going AWOL as you and others have said. Although if I was playing Death Guard Termies regularly I think I would get some and use them.
@@richardwales9674 the Ballistius is probably the safer pick.
An honorable mention would be
A 10 man squad or 10 man killteam and add Grayfax. They wreck kill rigs and most of the lone ops your opponent is relying on for buffs and actions.
Personally I lean towards the killteam because they can al be equipped with multi wound weapons
Hi, John!
Chat.
Sorry for not been there, it was rougg couple of months.
Back to the point.
I strongly dislike Vendicators, they areunrelyable, d6 damage plus 24 range is bad.
I do agree if you have something to fill the LR it is autochoice.
I do believe that 2 lancers and destructor is best choice if you cant use LR.
You can put your eradicators in a repulsor executioner. The d6 +4 16 str ap4 2 shot damage
I LOVE BLOOD ANGELS COMMANDER
I really do appreciate this level of support, thank you.
Blood for the Blood Primarch!
Fantastic video John. I bought the Redeemer/Crusader and the Repulsor Executioner for the rule of cool and it used to be ok with transporting 7. I could get my Bladeguard and Judiciar in and it only felt worth the points value just now. I have to find away to make them both work as I don't want to be splashing any more cash after getting the fomo box :( Any tips would be appreciate from my Brothers in Blood.
Impulsors are super strong. I’d put that at the top of your buy next list.
I get why you're not keen on the Repulsor executioner. I run mine with 3 Eradicators in it and I love it. That gun is awesome.
I'm running a Lancer, Executioner, Repulsor and Brutalis. Gives me a good spread.
Thanks for the video, John. I think the numbers here for the Lancer may be deceptively low without the wound and damage re-roll if im understanding you correctly.
For example, when I use UnitCrunch with 1 each re-roll hit, wound, and damage rolls it spits out 8 wounds against a Land Raider, not 5.6 as you have shown. Am I misunderstanding something?
I need to figure out this unit crunch I keep hearing about. I did say I didn’t factor in the wound reroll
John good video thank you! What about the Hunter Slayer Missle on the Repulsor?
Try true. Its damage is identical to a HKM?
@ correct, I just checked the Data Sheet on the App and same 2 up BS, S14, d6 damage.
Predator gets extra points for being an awesome model imo. I wish I had a couple of the first generation. I suppose the heresy models are kinda close to that
Should throw a column in for "Damage per 100 points" or something, so you have an idea how much damage output for cost you are getting. Sure, Vindicator > others....but is it better point for point?
It’s not always that easy I was up till 1am trying to make this. The math takes ages.
I just tried a gladiator lancer alongside a storm speeder thunder strike. Fit my needs for a game against custodes but I've yet to run them against a more armor heavy list
I've been running a Lancer and Ballistus in a 1k league, and enemy armour has rarely been surviving past round 2. Predators feel so precarious in the codex at the moment, but I'd love one. I have a couple of friends with the Leviathan Ballistus sitting in their pile of shame, I'm tempted to see if anyone wants me to take one of their hands.
I'd love to see a multi-part Ballistus with autocannon option release.
I think Ballistus were on eBay pretty cheap.
I'm building my first lists for BA, with the "mix and versatile" approach you talked about in the DC Army Set video and after seeing this I'm a bit hesitant for the long range support: I really the predators for their versatility but I am indeed concerned about their AT capability if compared to the gladiator lancers. Considering that right now for my collection I got DC army set and combat patrol + dante, do you have a suggestion in terms of what should be a good choice as first purchase in the AT section? Thank you very much!
Gladiator Lancer or Ballistus seem the best long term choice!
@ thank you ;)
Rage captain with the assault intercessors would be the unit for the executioner if you wanted to try make that work.
@@Sc0ttiiiiii That's a combo I'm definitely looking to try this weekend!
I’m hesitant to invest in firstborn armor, as it’s almost certain to go to legends in 11th ed.
Unfortunately I tend to agree. I wish Gw would clarify this.
Exactly what I needed after getting beaten by my friends imperial guard list twice in a row.
the problem is that when you really need anti tank (i.e. vs knights, tau, daemon vehicles, various monsters) the targets always have 4+ or 5+ invulnerable save. All these marine platforms get dwarfed and cannot do any reliable damage while they get picked up in w turn by weapons of absurd damage.
It is a little harsh that the marine vehicles never get a invuln save, but remember this edition is less killy.
Thoughts on the thunderstrike? With 2 ballistus giving plus 1 to wound?
It’s fine but I think I’d rather just 3 Ballistus.
My predator destructor and annihilator both bounced right off Necrons last night and got dealt with by turn 3. Still managed to outscore my buddy but lascannons into invul+FNP just don’t cut it.
Any suggestions instead?
@ I don’t know just yet - nothing went to plan in my game last night as my sang guard also bounced off a blob wraiths (used red rampage and succumbed to red thirst with Dante!) and were dealt with.
Vindicators would’ve been really nice but they’re also expensive. I ended up winning on mobility and a handful of good secondary draws but it was pretty dire straits.
So I guess my question is based off the info given here, a Land Raider Redeemer is worth it if you have the points available?
I'm sad now if I'm understanding this correctly but after looking at the impulsor data sheet I did not know I was not allowed to put any jump pack models in them. Guess Dante and sang guard are out in the cold now...
Dante and the SG can only go in Repulsor!
@ba_commander thanks for the help! It just means I have an impulsor for my blade guard and Chaplain
The pred annihilator is strength 14 on its twin las
Oh yeah. Very true!!! Do DG not get that?
That background picture should stay for thumb nails ❤️🔥
Has anyone tried running the baal predators now that theyve got assault on most weapon options?
So taking 2 gladiator lancers is 320 points, wouldn't it be better to just take the land raider reedemer and also save on transport?
The redeemer is good but in my meta it usually dies turn 1.
Not gonna lie. In a year i will sell my both Baal Predators. I am done with firstborn models. So only real option to my 2 ballistus is to buy 1-2 lancers.
I also have Landspeeder for Baal combo. Don't know what to do with it in future. Is any army realy plaing any version of it?
Meanwhile me with my Repulsar Executioner in the backrow:
I see no god here- EXCEPT FOR BIG E
Every time I try that it felt underwhelming!
@ba_commander I suppose it varries with playstyle. The Executioner has been a loyal vehicle for me
You say "It's 60 points for only 1.4 more damage". But you need to look at it like, it's 60 points for 31% more damage.
I use 2 land raiders with 5 terminators in them as my anti tank. The cheapest way to get full power fists into the opponent,
Yeah, I just think land raiders can be kind of vulnerable at times.
@ba_commander I do think the durability of the land raider is in a weird spot. For most of the space marines vehicles, honestly. Between smoke and/or AoC, I do find them consistently hard to kill, though. The dual role of them is just so powerful, to me. Losing power fists on our jump company, Terminators or Aggressors are the only way to get consistent power fists. Both fit into a land raider, and it's basically the only way to get them into a fight since we also lost the lib dread, and we get a supplemental set of lascannons. At the very worst, they blow up the raider t1, and I at least protected my termies from whatever killed the raider and got an extra 3" of movement.
16:00 Seeing these numbers makes me even more upset my land raider was one-shot in turn 1 by a single lancer in the first game that i used it
Dice can swing… pretty largely.
Eradicators. Repulsors both regular and exterminators. They both have tons of anti-infrantry shots. The repulsor has 30 +. Land raider regular has 4 lascannon shots. Str 16 shots from the repulsor exterminators. Then you have centurion assault squads that would get str 12 on the charge. Plus the bolter shots that could potentially have up to 18 shots for infantry. Give them multi meltas. The repulsor exterminators have 72 inch range on the str 16 2 shots ap4 and d6 +4 da.age. so at a minimum thats 10 wounds on a land raider and it gets a 6 plus save . A jump pack chaplain can give another 1str to a squad of sanguinary. Msking theur attacks str 9. You also have terminators on a charge at str 10.
no redemptor dred?
I don’t think it’s very good right now, especially not anti monster or anti vehicle
THE FLESH IS WEAK...wait...something's wrong here