Absolutley this. It’s fine if you don’t take music seriously, but it’s reasonable that no one takes your tastes seriously as well. People who like Drake and Ian get super upset when people rightfully call them out for it’s. Because they’re insecure as fuck and want validation for their shitty tastes.
its because tyler is objectively wrong lol i don't even like ian i think he's corny but he's not mocking anything nor does he sound like future or gucci
@@zaail3norsumidkyeah he don't sound like them at all he sounds like a better jack Harlow like jack Harlow is a prototype lol but he also actually raps too unlike post which was more moledic rap which i think is a lil more doable for someone who can sing rather than just actually rapping.
Depends dude, I don't think a lot of people have heard Ian outside of that mixtape and it's not his best display of how different his music can be. Check out a song like dujour he did more ambient/experimental rap previously. I wonder where he'll go now he has a following.
I agree expressing how you like or dislike music doesn’t have to always be complex, but if that’s how somebody expresses their feelings for EVERY album? Like…ewwww. It’s like Drake and Taylor fans. They’ll say Saba’s Care for Me is boring. Why? “It’s just mid man.” Then say Boldy’s a boring artist, or Big KRIT sounds like a loser. Why? “They just are man.” But then you ask them about an album or song that really changed their life. Now you expect a different response because it’s what their passionate about. Still they just say “I like it man.” Then you ask if they have an album that really changed em like that and they go “music ain’t that deep man.” It shows a disconnect on who values music more. They should both be allowed to express their like and dislike, but one should be taken more seriously. I’m always going to listen to a true hip hop nerd’s opinion on an album over DJ Chipmunk (DJ Akademics) or Tom McCracker.
News alert. most people don't even know who they really are as a person and they just kind of go along just kind of stupid in general. Followers not leaders .
Drake is my favorite rapper and i think Taylor is very talented I also love Care For Me and love Boldy albums, especially Price Of Tea In China Being a fan of a popular artist doesnt equate to be a fan of JUST popular music, im pretty sure that a lot of Gunna or Future fans also listen some underground shit on the low
Not everyone needs to give a thesis statement. I like care for me, but if someone says it mid i wont complain. Not all people listen to music the same.
@@l.a.6337 "Drake is my favourite rapper" All jokes aside, I dont think OC's point is about what you like and dislike, the point is that many people who consume music cant actually verbalise what it is they like or dislike about music or what it is that speaks to them negatively or positively. "Mr Morale is mid" "interesting take, why do you feel that way?" "Its just boring." You cant really have an opinion worth taking seriously if you cant even show that you understand what the album is trying to say or do, in order to critique one way or the other whether or not you found it to be successful.
@@2137NASCARit’s hard to make that argument when over the past decade tyler has proved he is a legitimate student of all kinds of hip hop, it’s far more acceptable to make a “yonkers” if you’re actually invested in the culture
@@2137NASCAR yea i had this same thought, i remember tyler said in an interview he was mocking new york beats in yonkers. But he mad a ian for mocking future or some shit. Yonkers might have been more satire or something and I can see where tyler is coming from on this take and is half right. But I think he might be doing to much on guy so early in his music career.
Tyler is criticizing how artists themselves don’t talk about or flesh out their OWN albums! Not as much on how fans review albums. I agree with what Sean said but he pivoted a bit from Tyler’s subject matter.
A lot of people don’t even listen to albums in order, skip thru til they hear something that slaps, don’t listen to the lyrics and LOVE mid music that took no effort because they don’t see music as art. Which is fine, I just don’t talk them about music or listen to their opinions. 🤷🏾♂️
I love some mid music that takes no effort as well. Depends on the occasion. And I do like some of Ians songs. Magic Johnson just has a great beat and nonsense rapping. But the combination just hits something nostalgic in a way and its a great backgorund song. And there HAS to be music for that occasion as well.
music meant to be enjoyed. The fact is more people listen to songs rather than whole albums so I dont see why you feel like your opinions better or summin
At the end of the day I feel like music (hip-hop in particular) still has a lot of creativity and people who treat it as an art form. It’s up to the listener to decide whether they wanna listen to art or listen to basic stuff. No one is in the wrong because it’s completely subjective.
Idk bruh I watched an interview with Ian... after hearing the way he talks in his music, it was super obvious that he code switches hard. I tuned out after that. Im good. Go to any frat house and you will meet plenty of white dudes that "developed" an accent after high school the exact same way. Something hilarious about a dude that looks like him rapping like people wouldn't push him if they saw him in person.
That whole "we don't need carti" thing during the carti hiatus was a joke lol. No one actually meant that Judah was gonna replace carti just because he made Bih Yah.
@@MaejorArrayjack was always wild to me because I never thought he was terrible.. but I never understood why he blew up the way he did. But then I saw a tweet asking if people could believe he was white and it all started coming together. That whole "whoa hold on I'm white AND I rap?!?!?! What?!?" Is a selling point to them. It's weird.
@@QTEEP ian does NOT code switch bru how did you even get that from the interview??? He's literally just having fun and doing him. Code switching would be someone like nettspend. Ian just doing him and having fun
aesthetics wise ian is very himself. He’s comfortable with his upbringing and the image he’s putting out is honestly him, and that’s super evident when you watch his from the block video. But sonically he’s biting a lot of other people without carving out his own niche. Which is why Tyler says audio blackface. It’s not just about him being white and making rap music, it’s about the kind of rap music he’s making, and the lack of personality he’s bringing to the sound. Yeat borrows a lot from other artists, but it feels like a natural evolution of a lot of the music he’s influenced by. There’s no Yeat without Carti or Thug, and he would admit that, but I can tell when a Yeat song is playing bc he’s doing his own shit. His flow is him, his delivery is him, and he doesn’t use his whiteness as a means of contrasting his aesthetics and his sound. and tbh I liked the Hate Me song with Yatchy. I feel like the production was interesting, and there was a confidence in Ian’s lyrical content. He was saying “whether you like me or not, i’m not leaving” and I respect that. But time will tell, maybe he’ll adopt rap while it’s convenient for him and then do a genre switch up like Post did. Or maybe he really will stick around, and in that case, he’s going to need to find a sound that is 100% him.
Ian isn’t showing the versatility needed to be able to do a genre switch + most of his fans are teenaged “underground rap” fans meaning they are the least open minded when it comes to music. So if this rap shi don’t work he not going nowhere imo
And the internet did EXACTLY what he said, took a clip out of context without hearing the entire interview. (also out of all the white boy rappers trying to make a name for themselves, everyone with certainty claimed it was a shot at Ian. He never said his name, but everyone could conclude it was him with the only hint that the rapper mocked other rappers, proving his point that many rappers don't love their craft.)
the hint is that he mentioned gucci mane & future and ian raps over zaytoven type beats, ppl knowing its ian doesnt prove that point, i also dont remember him ever mocking those artists
@@armaanbraich67 ion like ian but yeah the dude isn't mocking those rappers that's just simply not true, the only other two rappers that it could've been are like tom mcdonald and lil mabu but it's not really possible to say about them, ian the only other white boy on the come up so ppl are tryna exploit what they think is a gotcha moment to make tyler seem more valid
@@zaail3norsumidk same he got a couple decent songs but im not that big of a fan either, just dont rly understand tylers mocking comments. either way hes definitely getting way more traction than he deserves bc hes white but thats just how it seems to go with most white rappers
I think what this discussion is missing is an understanding of economics and capitalism. Of course the music industry makes more and more room for less talented artists and poorer quality music. It's way more profitable for labels and their execs/shareholders to cash in on a wave of super popular flash-in-the-pan artists than to spend money developing and promoting very talented artists over a long time, who might not have as broad an appeal and therefore less guarantee of max profit. This is pure capitalism in action. The art form of hip hop emerged because working class Black people in the US, particularly in urban areas, had something genuine and challenging to say about their lives and their experiences of oppression. Over time, hip hop got absorbed into the mainstream, and once that happened profit-seekers and opportunists (mostly white) jumped onboard, not because they had a deep appreciation for the history and craft of rap/hip hop, but because it was a ticket to lots of wealth and popularity quickly. this isn't unique to rap or even the music industry btw. We can see the same thing happening in fine art, in fashion, in design, in manufacturing, etc etc. For capitalists - the people who own the labels, the distributors, the streaming platforms - hip hop, and all music, is just a way to generate profit at the expense of the music's quality and the artists themselves
This is why makkng it about race is so frustrating. Its a good way to create cultural gates to keep, but the actual problem isnt white people, its capitalists
@@leaffinite2001 I understand the sentiment of your comment but I don't agree fully. In my comment I mentioned that rap and hiphop emerged from working class Black people. Rap and hip hop are Black genres and there's just no getting around that. Acknowledging this isn't making it about race (which - what would be the problem with that? the social construct of race and the very real social, political and economic outcomes of racism have a clear and documented effect on the lives of Black people and people of colour in the US and globally. Understanding and accepting this doesn't undermine critiques of political economy or the need for class solidarity across ethnic groups). Historically, white people really have leveraged whatever socioeconomic position they have (poor, rich and everything in between) to the detriment of Black people, especially poor Black people, especially in the US. To me it makes total sense that Black communities who inherited rap/hip hop are suspicious of or outright hostile to white people in the genre(s) (and white people make up a significant number, if not the majority, of "culture vulture" artists and opportunists - think Iggy Azalea, Post Malone, Miley Cyrus in her "Black era" in the early 2010s, Ian, so many others you can name lol. White people also make up a majority of the labels that sign and profit from these artists). We shouldn't locate the reason for low quality rap just in capitalism without an understanding of the US's social and political history. The problem of low quality rap comes from the intersection of capitalist greed/profit-seeking and the histories of racism (specifically anti-Blackness) and white supremacy in the US. I think it's more important to hold space for this kind of nuance instead of blaming one single thing for the problem
@@chimichanga3405 i agree with most everything you say, but the second part about white people making up the majority of culture vultures is poorly thought. Like yes, of course they do; when a black guy leeches off hiphop he has to be drake levels of cringe and literally canadian and wait 20 years and get destroyed in the most popular rap beef ever for it to really matter. Also theres way more white people than black people in the US, there would always be more white culture vultures than nonwhite. Also if you gatekeep white people, its like locking your front door; it just keeps out the honest and the stupid. On one hand that makes it easier to just say "all white rappers are culture vultures," to gatekeep easier, on the other hand i dont see that actually stopping hiphop from being exploited.
@@chimichanga3405as much as people like to put intersectionality into everything. The only reason people are going on this rant is not because of unoriginality in rap but because of the race of the person being unoriginal. You have the most mainstream genre of the last decade and expect the audience not to be white? It is clear that people overcompensate when there is a white person doing the exact same thing. We have male rapping acts that are known for having a violent/hedonistic persona. Female acts who objectify themselves for the male gaze yet we collectively accept it as part of our culture and “authentic”.
I feel like I don't "invest" in music anymore because of the streaming era. Back in the day, you might have heard a song or two on the radio, and you either purchased the single, or you took a risk and bought the whole album. Once you purchase it, it's stuck in your collection and you own it. You tended to take the music more seriously because you came out of pocket for that specific work versus everything else in the store. The experience is much different now.
yeah, it's a real tragedy. Plus, back in the day, talent was fed by the mainstream media. We didn't really have to go looking for it. MTV, tabloid magazines, E! news and so on and so forth made us care about people we would've never encountered otherwise. Now everything is so isolated and distanced from each other, you have no idea who could even be popping.
U wrote down exactly how I feel in such a pinpointed way lol its good to see that others really understand the shift and downgrade of the artistry and lack of quality control slowly over time.
I think Shawn misunderstood where Tyler's perspective is. There's a lot of artist who are constantly expressing how much they do not *care* about music, that are putting out music, and that's breeding a culture amongst audiences that doesn't engage with the things they're critiquing. I meet a lot of people who just cannot articulate what they like about anything. They love things the way toddlers love things, but they're 18-25 year olds; and now, because the "content creators" making music (and other art) are so derivative that they can get slotted in and out for whoever, until the artist they derived from comes back. I don't hate people younger than me for misusing the word mid or having an opinion about something that isn't on either end of an extreme, but I do hate when those people stop at "mid" and can't engage with anything about what they heard other than "it don't sound enough like my favorite thing." Finding the value in music, whether artist or audience member, becomes increasingly hard when every other artists comments sound like Post Malone's quote. I like Pinkpanthress' music; I hate that she is *confused* by the concept of tracklisting, instead of not caring for it because of other reasons. The "who cares" mentality is weird when you are serving a market that has traditionally valued things like that, even if that's not the core audience.
Your right but Tyler waters down his point with the whole "Ian is mocking hip hop" Ian has 0 artistic value and offers nothing but the idea that he's mocking hiphop just seems to cone from the fact he's white
While i agree with you perspective mostly the bottom line is that you can’t tell people how to consume content. In a perfect world people respect artistry and appreciates the layers and time it takes to craft top tier music… as you know this world is far far from perfect lol.
@@AnferneeMyers I only read it because I'm as passionate as you are regarding this topic. We must be entering a New Dark Age in society for all of this to be affecting multiple parts of not just entertainment, but society as whole.
yeah this it’s what i was thinking too, like even if he won’t be a superstar it feels weird that he gets cosigns and LL music videos for such derivative music. Those resources are better spent elsewhere imo
I'm gonna disagree with the idea that in depth conversations weren't the norm back in the day. You can read interviews and reviews of albums back when popular music just became a thing and you can see how in-depth people were about their music criticism, even in the 50s. If anything, I think the aughts and to the mid 2010s dumbed music criticism down and it's becoming more analytical again.
They most certainly were not the standard. I think you’re referencing articles/reviews where people are cultivating around something they’re already passionate about to have in depth conversation at length about. I’m referring to the average, who you’re most likely to hear an opinion from in the workforce, people with families or not so much time on their hands.
He was talking about the general public. The general public was not going in depth on every damn album that comes out. The Kendrick of the world is where people started this over analyzing of music and everything had to be deep.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE these publications operate for profit. If people didn’t care and were genuinely uninterested, then they wouldn’t sell so well. You can look at when publications such as The Rolling Stone were at their peak and look at the quality of their articles on music then vs now. The fact that these same publications have watered down their criticism and are losing relevance simultaneously can’t be ignored. We have to base the depth of knowledge of the average listener based off of primary sources, not here say.
@@lallstar13 the only evidence we have about what the general public was interested in historically as far as music criticism is concerned is print. We don’t have recordings of every day people talking about music, we didn’t have cost effective ways of publishing our opinions until smartphones became popular.
@@charlespeter5610That’s not a good rubric to use at all. That’s like going to a star wars convention saying “this is what the general public thought about the franchise at the time”. Obviously a publication or corporation known for music will attract people who have an interest in music but that is NOT reflective of the general public.
It’s frustrating how Tyler’s message is being so misinterpreted and it seems like it’s on purpose with the very young fans of hip-hop. It’s exact reason why it’s important for Tyler to make this issue, a talked about issue because it needs to stop and has been going on for too long with rappers coming in very young and only for the profit instead of giving quality music, which is why their fans don’t even care at this point because they know it’s all about clout over the music. 💯🔥
I think there's no problem with the regular guy saying something is "mid" or average , the problem it is when the dude enter in a discussion about music and the only argument it's "mid" even don't listening to the music .
It’s like sports.. Don’t say shit about the finals if you don’t watch the season(s). Don’t even discredit the players accolades if you only started keeping up with them in the tail end of their career
@@waynewayne8419 what the hell did your toilet water take have to do with the regular Joe’s opinion on music? Please my favorite artists (Tyler being one of them) has Grammies, performed at shows, a staple name and has been around… no body is threatened by Ian’s 15 minutes of fame I promise you.
@@poetryismyting8854 Grammy white man awards. Funny you have no problem talking down Ian for being white but you sure do love raving about them giving you awards. Nevertheless. Ian’s 15 minutes of fame is what makes you guys mad, and I find that quite funny
Tyler should the last person talking about "mockery" when thats the exact same way he started his career by mocking New York artist...this situation is just "Right message, wrong messenger".
Nah cause yall crying about how artists aren’t taking music seriously yet you’re not searching in the underground for the style you’re looking for . Top of that anytime anyone tries to go Fully conscious yall then proceed to say its mid . Look at kendrick’s mr morale and the big steppers . Everyone tried to say that album was mid but he created a whole music therapy session album . Like this is my thing when are people going to wake up and realize you’re complaining to complain. you always say oh im tired of music about bitches money and cars and yet there you are blasting artists who then rap about subjects like that . Not to mention the music you’re looking is out there but its up to you to search but lets be real mos people don’t they just complain to complain. You buy the brand but you never really look at the quality . Its why mfs get certain clothes , shoes, even the car they drive if its not popular y’all don’t try to even attempt to hear it out . That’s why it feels music is dead . Idc if this is a big paragraph either
Post malone has been doing guitar and even country songs to a degree since his very first album. It seems pretty clear that he would turn to that kind of music for an album or two eventually
That’s what I’ve been saying. His first 2 albums were literally called “Stoney” and “Beer Pongs and Bentleys” lol. And he always sang, never really “rapped” per say. I don’t get the outrage… and he still hangs around rappers
Going to White Iverson to country music is crazy! That’s the issue. Most people complaining about his sharp turn toward country music are upset because white artists like him get to bend genres but Black artists are by and large limited to hip hop, rap, and r&b.
the issue is rappers today aren't creative, driven by only money and fame and they know no history of hip hop let alone respect and revere it. so u get what we got
You really think rappers of today arent creative when all we were getting back in the days were boom bap and conscious rap??? The variety is so much now that its unbelievable. What you're saying is simply untrue
To those saying Tyler is "old" - even as a young rapper, you could CLEARLY see that Tyler took rapping seriously. He took the art form seriously. It was in a non-convential way but he never cheated the game. Rappers today are cheating fans and programming them to like trash music with no authenticity behind it
I have no gripes with people who want to be fans of the very low quality opium type music or dudes like Ian. My gripe is when those people try to tell me something like a Tyler album for example, or literally ANY other artist who puts care into their music is trash or mid.
It's funny that it took so long (until this week) for Posty to release a country album. I was expecting him to drop it in like 2018 after those comments lol.
People need to know that even the criteria that you use is completely personal, some people use music as background music, and you know what? it's completely fine, you can like and dislike things for whatever the reason.
He’s completely right. Why do you think some albums feel like larger than life moments while others just feel like nothing. Even beyond just the quality of the music, the presentation of it is extremely important. Wether it’s music videos, concepts, visual teasers, album covers, etc
Shawn seems to not understand that artists not even caring will spiral into no one caring about what they create and everything will be driven by investors and everything will become a watered down copy of what was successful
That’s why I prefer to do full album reactions on my channel. Then I can intimately share my thoughts moment after moment and then do a different piece of content on how I feel on it after the fact later on
a lot of people dont kno how ian rly came up in the ambient soundcloud scene for a loooooong ass time workin w people like cutspace and iokera (rip, love u 4ever) but thats a diff conversation
Shawn essentially arguing against having media literacy. We literally would go to school and have to give detailed reasons why we did or didn't like a book outside of just saying "it's boring". I think that's what Tyler is saying and what Shawn is missing - people aren't expected to engage with art with a critical lense and it's giving rise to bs, fast food rap music.
i understand tyler's points but i don't see how someone enjoying a sound is wrong for taking inspiration regardless of race or ethnicity. There are a lot of people with talent, but Ian is popping in atl and his marketing/image is more engaging to people looking for something different, just like eminem or post. Its not meme music, people just genuinely enjoy his music lol. that shi just hatin
music has no standard, for a lot of "underground" artist that I see getting recognition it's just way to make money and I think they should be overlooked, they don't any music that has any meaning, no purpose, and that to me just takes away from the meaning of what being an artist is.
I mean just as people are allowed to be straightforward about music i think its fair for an artist like tyler to want people to intereact more with music. Its not like two absolutes, some people who don't think too much could do with some lessons on how they articulate music opinions, they might enjoy talking about music more with some tools
I think you can acknowledge that audiences need to stop boosting artists like Ian while still agreeing with Tyler here. He's not putting all of the responsibility on artists chasing trends. It's perfectly reasonable to express frustrations with it all
yall stop quoting post malone out of context this is his full quote...mind you it was 2017 at the hight of mumble rap: “If you’re looking for lyrics, if you’re looking to cry, if you’re looking to think about life, don’t listen to hip-hop,” he said. “There’s great hip-hop songs where they talk about life and they spit that real shit, but right now, there’s not a lot of people talking about shit. “Whenever I want to cry,” he continued, “whenever I want to sit down and have a nice cry, I’ll listen to some Bob Dylan. But whenever I’m trying to have a good time and stay in a positive mood, I listen to hip-hop because it’s fun. I think hip-hop is important because it brings people together in a beautiful, happy way. Everybody’s happy.”
Mid is not trash mid is mid. Tyler is mad cuz he been dropping mid lol don’t be mad if you in a mid slump lmao earl also dropping mid after mid Mid is background af- listenable but not lifting Your welcome
I feel like as a whole most people aren’t self aware or even emotionally intelligent enough to communicate why they like or dislike something. They just do because it’s in front of them to make a snap judgement on.
This is a conversation that should not only be aimed at rap or hip hop imo. This is just a music industry thing where uniqueness is seemed and rewarded at first but then copied if it can be. Blame can go on the artist that are not original or the fans that support it, but it needs to also go on the music industry that push these clones on us too. There are a bunch of unique artists that put a lot of thought into their art that are not pushed by algorithms, that won’t be found unless you feel like doing work to find them.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter people's opinion on the internet about how good a music is what matters is that Eminem just sold 500,000 albums in a month and people still don't understand why saying it ain't good
Some albums are literally just mid and have nothing to offer. I have SO MUCH to say about the albums I truly love. A good record is one that MAKES you listen closer and deeper; even a good pop album, which tends to have predictable lyrics, can make you appreciate it more if it’s genuinely enjoyable and refreshing. But the vast majority of music in general is mid tbh.
3:00I think for the audience to do “deep” analysis on music the music has to genuinely have creative ideas in it…..but music has become more commodity than art
That post Malone exert from xxl magazine you have to think of where rap was at that time uzi ,juice,xxx,and other kinda emo rappers didn’t fully hit yet we were still living in a lil pump, smoke purp, designer, migos world so everything was pretty party centric so I can we’re he was coming from back then
You took a nugget out of the interview and disregarded the over arching theme to what he's saying. The people being pushed on the MASSES don't care about the art. That mindset trickles down to the average fan. If they don't value the art form and only look at it as a bag that way of thinking is detrimental to the art. That's how you get streaming and $0.001 for every 1000 streams or whatever the f it is. 'Old heads' been knew this was gonna happen. A change gon come but you cant sweep the cause and effect under the rug. If you don't understand history you're doomed to repeat.
Sadly ppl nowadays dont give a fuck about the quality of the music being played, thats why u have "Rappers" who cannot Rap, perfomers who cannot perform live its a playback of them, and everything gets excuse by music/art is subjetive, feel like thats just an excuse to include and make profit out of talentless ppl who claim to be artist without actually trying to one or improve on it, why would they? They dont care they just there for the money and thats ok the system allow it.
the same thing that's been happening to the visual arts for decades. We don't even have a renowned visual artist apart from maybe Banksy that a lot of people know or gravitate towards. Soon enough, the music will just be a money laundering operation.
The problem is that social media, mainly TikTok, is turning music into clips and not full bodies of work. Also, that style of consumption is chewing up artists' opprotunity to develop and get better because they only get any shine when a song is popular on TikTok.
did you forget what tylers early music sounded like? Tyler came up in the rap game by being an edgelord who openly talked about raping people in the most explicit ways possible, bro has no reason to be trashing Ian
He’s clearly only talking about people who go out of their way to talk bad about someone’s music and not even be able to articulate themselves and just call the shit mid.
I just disagree with Shawn's entire opinion here wholeheartedly. It absolutely isnt unreasonable to expect the average person to know why they like a piece of music. You dont have to get super technical or have a degree in Music Theory or some shit in order to be able to articulate how an album made you feel, show that you understood what it was trying to say and do and then say whether or not you feel it was successful. Its not unreasonable to expect a person to pay attention to the art they consume.
6:10 what he was saying with that comment is people all over the place look and sound alike, it used to be they look and sound alike in a certain physical area, the internet made that all messed up.
Bro is hung up on the articulation part when the point he making is about the fact that the artists don't care about the music they're putting out so the fans become fans of industry rollouts and marketing schemes instead of actual music
@@ShawnCeeLIVEIf you can't even acknowledge that in recent years issues like that have gotten worse and worse then no one can have this conversation with you because clearly you live on a different planet
I agree, in a sense that anyone should be free to say mid, and that should encapsulate their thoughts. But a lot of the kids who say it, say it without knowing why they dislike it. It’s a good skill to have, being able to look into yourself to find out what you like, or dislike. Imagine you go on a date (hard to imagine I know) and you don’t like the date. If you can’t understand why you dislike her or the date, you will 100% repeat the mistake because you can’t reflect.
I see both their points ! I def agree with the idea that the artistry is lacking . I feel like the internet has given people a lot of false confidence , to where people self proclaim themselves as this or that because of followers , views or content . As a result doctors, journalist , musicians . That now talent , skill , and experience is very much often over looked . Songs are getting ridiculous short 😭 and I want it to stop .
I feel like the ease of access to music definitely plays a role here in the shallowness of critique. You had to drop $15 for an album (or more for a physical sometimes) so you had to sit with your purchases. Now, you don't have to sit with a project you were lukewarm on after one listen because you can put on literally any other song in the history of music instead. I remember buying a few albums that I wanted to like that I was disappointed by, and sitting with them because I felt like I was wasting my money otherwise made me form more detailed opinions about the music (e.g. I was so pressed when I bought 808s and Heartbreak initially but ended up coming around on the majority of it)
It seems as though Tyler is saying/suggesting that due to the lack of good criticism, the quality of music has dropped and the standards have dropped too. No, not everyone has to be a critic/journalist but there’s a reason why the eras with gatekeepers produced such good music AND that music made it to the mainstream. Unlike now where a mainstream song from a mainstream artist that’s also great, instead of a carbon copy of the last ear worm that was good enough to play on radio, is like a random breath of fresh air while walking through a landfill. TLDR: the industry works best like an ecosystem. Without great musicians, we don’t get great music but we don’t get great music unless we have great critics who tell it as it is.
I only have 3 subscribers but I love all of my rap songs that I make and upload on UA-cam. Whether if i have a million or just 3 subscribers my passion for rap music will never change.
I disagree with Shawn. From 1:12 It’s not that we’re going back to people being binary about their opinion, people just didn’t have internet and a sense that they can put an opinion out and somebody would actually listen or have a reaction to it. Nowadays subconsciously, the need to be a valued individual is so high cause of the presence the internet creates of a person that even the comment section is a hotspot for likes and “look how funny I am, intellectual i am” And everybody has a mutual understanding to this is current state of the internet. So what Tyler is saying is absolutely true. And I disagree with Shawn. And I’ve loved his content for years, I remember watching the reaction video for DAMN. And I can see how he has changed through the years, he actually cared about music before, and now he just skims through music, at least that’s what I feel.
In my opinion, Post Malone was never rapping like that. He always sang in his melodic tone. The type beats have just changed with each album so I’m not as mad as everyone else is trying to be
Tyler the creator owes his whole come up to the emo goth white kid slash skateboard culture shit which was so alien to hiphop at the time. This is even before trukfit era Wayne. Watch Earl's debut single Earl from 2010. Watch the music video. You have never seen no black kid act like that pn camera before. Tyler should be the last person to be talking about leeching off cultures.
I really feel like Ian just rapping 🤷🏿♂️ not talking about killing , trapping or being from the trenches he literally is just rapping about rich stuff which it looks like he actually came from so I don’t really see the problem.
@@farikoliquidz4606 he's directly ripping off those artists mentioned with no care and putting on the fakest blaccent while doing it. yall are slow asf
@@user-mc3qv4pw1p oh no a white guy has an accent! He must be doing it to sound black it couldn’t be anything else at all! Slow ass mf I guess Tyler is trying to be white on flower boy 🤣
@@user-mc3qv4pw1p so I can assume Beyoncé is trying to be a white woman by putting on a fake country accent right? And lil nas X? And Tyler himself when he cried like a lil white boy on the entire flower boy album?
@@farikoliquidz4606Beyonce is from Texas. You must've never heard her talk, she clearly has a southern accent. Is it put on a lil more for the country aesthetic, yes. But all country music since around 05-06 has blatantly enhance southern accents.
There are tons of people that choose to eat McDonalds and other fast food and consider that the pinnacle of food. On so many objective measures that is false, including what it’s doing to your body. As much as people want to be “post-Modern” with opinions (ie everyone’s opinion is valid, there is no real objective standard, everything is everything, blah blah blah) there are real things you can point at in art that makes it good or bad or mid. Not knowing those reasons doesn’t make those reason less real. An informed opinion does matter more than an uninformed opinion. Just because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean you provide any value to the rest of humanity. We all have feelings about stuff, but there are some human beings that have done things that have changed the course of history and made our lives better (like the people who have contributed to make this social media platform your profit off). In the same vein, some opinions really do matter more than others. Until we can all let go of our egos and be at peace with that fact, the internet will be continued to be swarmed with trash content and even trashier opinions.
The opinions of people who don’t take music seriously shouldn’t be taken seriously either.
I agree 👍🏾
Absolutley this. It’s fine if you don’t take music seriously, but it’s reasonable that no one takes your tastes seriously as well.
People who like Drake and Ian get super upset when people rightfully call them out for it’s. Because they’re insecure as fuck and want validation for their shitty tastes.
@@TheSkaOreoyea Mr “Oreo” you’re so smart
@@Woway1 well thank you for noticing.
@@TheSkaOreo brother music is subjective Tyler was rapping about R-wording pregnant women at one point in his career
Everyone putting a cape for Ian like he won't be gone by next year.
I honestly forgot he was a thing before this discourse lol
its because tyler is objectively wrong lol i don't even like ian i think he's corny but he's not mocking anything nor does he sound like future or gucci
wait who’s ian?
edit: nvm, it’s the magic johnson mf
@@zaail3norsumidkyeah he don't sound like them at all he sounds like a better jack Harlow like jack Harlow is a prototype lol but he also actually raps too unlike post which was more moledic rap which i think is a lil more doable for someone who can sing rather than just actually rapping.
Depends dude, I don't think a lot of people have heard Ian outside of that mixtape and it's not his best display of how different his music can be. Check out a song like dujour he did more ambient/experimental rap previously. I wonder where he'll go now he has a following.
⚠️WARNING⚠️: shawn starts speaking at 0:32
bro we did NOT need this 😭
Namaste 😭🙏🏾
Thanks will mute
Lmao
😂😂😂
I agree expressing how you like or dislike music doesn’t have to always be complex, but if that’s how somebody expresses their feelings for EVERY album? Like…ewwww.
It’s like Drake and Taylor fans. They’ll say Saba’s Care for Me is boring. Why? “It’s just mid man.” Then say Boldy’s a boring artist, or Big KRIT sounds like a loser. Why? “They just are man.”
But then you ask them about an album or song that really changed their life. Now you expect a different response because it’s what their passionate about. Still they just say “I like it man.” Then you ask if they have an album that really changed em like that and they go “music ain’t that deep man.”
It shows a disconnect on who values music more. They should both be allowed to express their like and dislike, but one should be taken more seriously. I’m always going to listen to a true hip hop nerd’s opinion on an album over DJ Chipmunk (DJ Akademics) or Tom McCracker.
News alert. most people don't even know who they really are as a person and they just kind of go along just kind of stupid in general. Followers not leaders .
Drake is my favorite rapper and i think Taylor is very talented
I also love Care For Me and love Boldy albums, especially Price Of Tea In China
Being a fan of a popular artist doesnt equate to be a fan of JUST popular music, im pretty sure that a lot of Gunna or Future fans also listen some underground shit on the low
Not everyone needs to give a thesis statement.
I like care for me, but if someone says it mid i wont complain.
Not all people listen to music the same.
@@l.a.6337 "Drake is my favourite rapper"
All jokes aside, I dont think OC's point is about what you like and dislike, the point is that many people who consume music cant actually verbalise what it is they like or dislike about music or what it is that speaks to them negatively or positively. "Mr Morale is mid" "interesting take, why do you feel that way?" "Its just boring." You cant really have an opinion worth taking seriously if you cant even show that you understand what the album is trying to say or do, in order to critique one way or the other whether or not you found it to be successful.
@@l.a.6337
Ew
tyler speaking the truth
is he tho?Yonkers changed his life.A song that mocks new york.A goof song that doesnt respect culture
@@2137NASCARit’s hard to make that argument when over the past decade tyler has proved he is a legitimate student of all kinds of hip hop, it’s far more acceptable to make a “yonkers” if you’re actually invested in the culture
@@2137NASCAR yea i had this same thought, i remember tyler said in an interview he was mocking new york beats in yonkers. But he mad a ian for mocking future or some shit. Yonkers might have been more satire or something and I can see where tyler is coming from on this take and is half right. But I think he might be doing to much on guy so early in his music career.
@@2137NASCARhe’s also not rapping about selling coke
@@2137NASCAR that was over ten years ago people grow up and change look at him now he said he hated yonkers.
Tyler is criticizing how artists themselves don’t talk about or flesh out their OWN albums! Not as much on how fans review albums. I agree with what Sean said but he pivoted a bit from Tyler’s subject matter.
Biggest problem with reaction content and honestly all online discourse is ppl are too wrapped up in their own thoughts and cant hear properly
A lot of people don’t even listen to albums in order, skip thru til they hear something that slaps, don’t listen to the lyrics and LOVE mid music that took no effort because they don’t see music as art. Which is fine, I just don’t talk them about music or listen to their opinions. 🤷🏾♂️
I love some mid music that takes no effort as well. Depends on the occasion. And I do like some of Ians songs. Magic Johnson just has a great beat and nonsense rapping. But the combination just hits something nostalgic in a way and its a great backgorund song. And there HAS to be music for that occasion as well.
music meant to be enjoyed. The fact is more people listen to songs rather than whole albums so I dont see why you feel like your opinions better or summin
@@Rocketsfan2006 he literally said it was fine bro
@@Rocketsfan2006Another case of illiteracy
@@Rocketsfan2006bro got tired of reading after the second comma
At the end of the day I feel like music (hip-hop in particular) still has a lot of creativity and people who treat it as an art form. It’s up to the listener to decide whether they wanna listen to art or listen to basic stuff. No one is in the wrong because it’s completely subjective.
i absolutely think this same thing, i think tyler was being a bit pretentious in what he was saying.
His point was that their input takes the most spotlight
Yeah the good “hip hop” does no numbers
There's a place for every type of fan but when the vast majority don't care about lyrics or quality in the slightest it kills the soul of the art
There's also alot of very dumb people too
Idk bruh I watched an interview with Ian... after hearing the way he talks in his music, it was super obvious that he code switches hard. I tuned out after that. Im good. Go to any frat house and you will meet plenty of white dudes that "developed" an accent after high school the exact same way.
Something hilarious about a dude that looks like him rapping like people wouldn't push him if they saw him in person.
That whole "we don't need carti" thing during the carti hiatus was a joke lol. No one actually meant that Judah was gonna replace carti just because he made Bih Yah.
@@MaejorArray Which is funny because jack harlow is filler for good music
@@MaejorArrayjack was always wild to me because I never thought he was terrible.. but I never understood why he blew up the way he did. But then I saw a tweet asking if people could believe he was white and it all started coming together. That whole "whoa hold on I'm white AND I rap?!?!?! What?!?" Is a selling point to them. It's weird.
@@QTEEP ian does NOT code switch bru how did you even get that from the interview??? He's literally just having fun and doing him. Code switching would be someone like nettspend. Ian just doing him and having fun
@@WhyThoOz it's okay bro, Ian is just older nett
Young White Avatars otw to ruin rap😔
White ppl aren’t allowed to rap 😢😢😢
Yooo Atlanta was genius for pointing that out
@@2phonebabykeem913 yuuuup. White rappers whose only frame of reference for rap is Drake and Eminem.
Atlanta was the closest thing we have to a live action Boondocks
@@TheSkaOreoIan sound nothing like Drake or Eminem? Google Brezzo that Ian’s inspiration
Tyler saying this is amazing cuz mfs been sayin this about Ian for a min
Wut….
Never heard that comparison in my life
Ian always got compared to yeat not no future and gucci, not gon lie he rap on those 2000s gucci trap beat do he sound like them or mocking them no
Whose ivan?
aesthetics wise ian is very himself. He’s comfortable with his upbringing and the image he’s putting out is honestly him, and that’s super evident when you watch his from the block video.
But sonically he’s biting a lot of other people without carving out his own niche. Which is why Tyler says audio blackface. It’s not just about him being white and making rap music, it’s about the kind of rap music he’s making, and the lack of personality he’s bringing to the sound.
Yeat borrows a lot from other artists, but it feels like a natural evolution of a lot of the music he’s influenced by. There’s no Yeat without Carti or Thug, and he would admit that, but I can tell when a Yeat song is playing bc he’s doing his own shit. His flow is him, his delivery is him, and he doesn’t use his whiteness as a means of contrasting his aesthetics and his sound.
and tbh I liked the Hate Me song with Yatchy. I feel like the production was interesting, and there was a confidence in Ian’s lyrical content. He was saying “whether you like me or not, i’m not leaving” and I respect that. But time will tell, maybe he’ll adopt rap while it’s convenient for him and then do a genre switch up like Post did.
Or maybe he really will stick around, and in that case, he’s going to need to find a sound that is 100% him.
Ian isn’t showing the versatility needed to be able to do a genre switch + most of his fans are teenaged “underground rap” fans meaning they are the least open minded when it comes to music. So if this rap shi don’t work he not going nowhere imo
And the internet did EXACTLY what he said, took a clip out of context without hearing the entire interview. (also out of all the white boy rappers trying to make a name for themselves, everyone with certainty claimed it was a shot at Ian. He never said his name, but everyone could conclude it was him with the only hint that the rapper mocked other rappers, proving his point that many rappers don't love their craft.)
Them secretly knowing it had to be about Ian is hilarious.
@@QTEEP If I were Ian I would be like, hold on who said it was about me y'all 😭?
the hint is that he mentioned gucci mane & future and ian raps over zaytoven type beats, ppl knowing its ian doesnt prove that point, i also dont remember him ever mocking those artists
@@armaanbraich67 ion like ian but yeah the dude isn't mocking those rappers that's just simply not true, the only other two rappers that it could've been are like tom mcdonald and lil mabu but it's not really possible to say about them, ian the only other white boy on the come up so ppl are tryna exploit what they think is a gotcha moment to make tyler seem more valid
@@zaail3norsumidk same he got a couple decent songs but im not that big of a fan either, just dont rly understand tylers mocking comments. either way hes definitely getting way more traction than he deserves bc hes white but thats just how it seems to go with most white rappers
I think what this discussion is missing is an understanding of economics and capitalism. Of course the music industry makes more and more room for less talented artists and poorer quality music. It's way more profitable for labels and their execs/shareholders to cash in on a wave of super popular flash-in-the-pan artists than to spend money developing and promoting very talented artists over a long time, who might not have as broad an appeal and therefore less guarantee of max profit. This is pure capitalism in action.
The art form of hip hop emerged because working class Black people in the US, particularly in urban areas, had something genuine and challenging to say about their lives and their experiences of oppression. Over time, hip hop got absorbed into the mainstream, and once that happened profit-seekers and opportunists (mostly white) jumped onboard, not because they had a deep appreciation for the history and craft of rap/hip hop, but because it was a ticket to lots of wealth and popularity quickly. this isn't unique to rap or even the music industry btw. We can see the same thing happening in fine art, in fashion, in design, in manufacturing, etc etc. For capitalists - the people who own the labels, the distributors, the streaming platforms - hip hop, and all music, is just a way to generate profit at the expense of the music's quality and the artists themselves
P R E A C H
This is why makkng it about race is so frustrating. Its a good way to create cultural gates to keep, but the actual problem isnt white people, its capitalists
@@leaffinite2001 I understand the sentiment of your comment but I don't agree fully. In my comment I mentioned that rap and hiphop emerged from working class Black people. Rap and hip hop are Black genres and there's just no getting around that. Acknowledging this isn't making it about race (which - what would be the problem with that? the social construct of race and the very real social, political and economic outcomes of racism have a clear and documented effect on the lives of Black people and people of colour in the US and globally. Understanding and accepting this doesn't undermine critiques of political economy or the need for class solidarity across ethnic groups). Historically, white people really have leveraged whatever socioeconomic position they have (poor, rich and everything in between) to the detriment of Black people, especially poor Black people, especially in the US. To me it makes total sense that Black communities who inherited rap/hip hop are suspicious of or outright hostile to white people in the genre(s) (and white people make up a significant number, if not the majority, of "culture vulture" artists and opportunists - think Iggy Azalea, Post Malone, Miley Cyrus in her "Black era" in the early 2010s, Ian, so many others you can name lol. White people also make up a majority of the labels that sign and profit from these artists). We shouldn't locate the reason for low quality rap just in capitalism without an understanding of the US's social and political history. The problem of low quality rap comes from the intersection of capitalist greed/profit-seeking and the histories of racism (specifically anti-Blackness) and white supremacy in the US. I think it's more important to hold space for this kind of nuance instead of blaming one single thing for the problem
@@chimichanga3405 i agree with most everything you say, but the second part about white people making up the majority of culture vultures is poorly thought. Like yes, of course they do; when a black guy leeches off hiphop he has to be drake levels of cringe and literally canadian and wait 20 years and get destroyed in the most popular rap beef ever for it to really matter. Also theres way more white people than black people in the US, there would always be more white culture vultures than nonwhite. Also if you gatekeep white people, its like locking your front door; it just keeps out the honest and the stupid. On one hand that makes it easier to just say "all white rappers are culture vultures," to gatekeep easier, on the other hand i dont see that actually stopping hiphop from being exploited.
@@chimichanga3405as much as people like to put intersectionality into everything. The only reason people are going on this rant is not because of unoriginality in rap but because of the race of the person being unoriginal. You have the most mainstream genre of the last decade and expect the audience not to be white? It is clear that people overcompensate when there is a white person doing the exact same thing. We have male rapping acts that are known for having a violent/hedonistic persona. Female acts who objectify themselves for the male gaze yet we collectively accept it as part of our culture and “authentic”.
I feel like I don't "invest" in music anymore because of the streaming era. Back in the day, you might have heard a song or two on the radio, and you either purchased the single, or you took a risk and bought the whole album. Once you purchase it, it's stuck in your collection and you own it. You tended to take the music more seriously because you came out of pocket for that specific work versus everything else in the store. The experience is much different now.
yeah, it's a real tragedy. Plus, back in the day, talent was fed by the mainstream media. We didn't really have to go looking for it. MTV, tabloid magazines, E! news and so on and so forth made us care about people we would've never encountered otherwise. Now everything is so isolated and distanced from each other, you have no idea who could even be popping.
U wrote down exactly how I feel in such a pinpointed way lol its good to see that others really understand the shift and downgrade of the artistry and lack of quality control slowly over time.
Yes he is
I think Shawn misunderstood where Tyler's perspective is. There's a lot of artist who are constantly expressing how much they do not *care* about music, that are putting out music, and that's breeding a culture amongst audiences that doesn't engage with the things they're critiquing. I meet a lot of people who just cannot articulate what they like about anything. They love things the way toddlers love things, but they're 18-25 year olds; and now, because the "content creators" making music (and other art) are so derivative that they can get slotted in and out for whoever, until the artist they derived from comes back.
I don't hate people younger than me for misusing the word mid or having an opinion about something that isn't on either end of an extreme, but I do hate when those people stop at "mid" and can't engage with anything about what they heard other than "it don't sound enough like my favorite thing." Finding the value in music, whether artist or audience member, becomes increasingly hard when every other artists comments sound like Post Malone's quote.
I like Pinkpanthress' music; I hate that she is *confused* by the concept of tracklisting, instead of not caring for it because of other reasons. The "who cares" mentality is weird when you are serving a market that has traditionally valued things like that, even if that's not the core audience.
Your right but Tyler waters down his point with the whole "Ian is mocking hip hop" Ian has 0 artistic value and offers nothing but the idea that he's mocking hiphop just seems to cone from the fact he's white
100% agree with you brother.
@@saintkevinofficial I appreciate that you read it all, that comment was long as hell lmao
While i agree with you perspective mostly the bottom line is that you can’t tell people how to consume content. In a perfect world people respect artistry and appreciates the layers and time it takes to craft top tier music… as you know this world is far far from perfect lol.
@@AnferneeMyers I only read it because I'm as passionate as you are regarding this topic. We must be entering a New Dark Age in society for all of this to be affecting multiple parts of not just entertainment, but society as whole.
7:04 i was also thinking that, but please also consider the fact that same energy could be put into finding people that may actually be remembered
yeah this it’s what i was thinking too, like even if he won’t be a superstar it feels weird that he gets cosigns and LL music videos for such derivative music. Those resources are better spent elsewhere imo
I'm gonna disagree with the idea that in depth conversations weren't the norm back in the day. You can read interviews and reviews of albums back when popular music just became a thing and you can see how in-depth people were about their music criticism, even in the 50s. If anything, I think the aughts and to the mid 2010s dumbed music criticism down and it's becoming more analytical again.
They most certainly were not the standard. I think you’re referencing articles/reviews where people are cultivating around something they’re already passionate about to have in depth conversation at length about. I’m referring to the average, who you’re most likely to hear an opinion from in the workforce, people with families or not so much time on their hands.
He was talking about the general public. The general public was not going in depth on every damn album that comes out. The Kendrick of the world is where people started this over analyzing of music and everything had to be deep.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE these publications operate for profit. If people didn’t care and were genuinely uninterested, then they wouldn’t sell so well. You can look at when publications such as The Rolling Stone were at their peak and look at the quality of their articles on music then vs now. The fact that these same publications have watered down their criticism and are losing relevance simultaneously can’t be ignored. We have to base the depth of knowledge of the average listener based off of primary sources, not here say.
@@lallstar13 the only evidence we have about what the general public was interested in historically as far as music criticism is concerned is print. We don’t have recordings of every day people talking about music, we didn’t have cost effective ways of publishing our opinions until smartphones became popular.
@@charlespeter5610That’s not a good rubric to use at all. That’s like going to a star wars convention saying “this is what the general public thought about the franchise at the time”. Obviously a publication or corporation known for music will attract people who have an interest in music but that is NOT reflective of the general public.
It’s frustrating how Tyler’s message is being so misinterpreted and it seems like it’s on purpose with the very young fans of hip-hop. It’s exact reason why it’s important for Tyler to make this issue, a talked about issue because it needs to stop and has been going on for too long with rappers coming in very young and only for the profit instead of giving quality music, which is why their fans don’t even care at this point because they know it’s all about clout over the music. 💯🔥
He’s just an old head hating on young artists
I think there's no problem with the regular guy saying something is "mid" or average , the problem it is when the dude enter in a discussion about music and the only argument it's "mid" even don't listening to the music .
It’s like sports..
Don’t say shit about the finals if you don’t watch the season(s).
Don’t even discredit the players accolades if you only started keeping up with them in the tail end of their career
@@poetryismyting8854the thing is your artists are not reaping the same rewards the ‘lowly’ artists are getting that’s why you guys are all mad
@@waynewayne8419 what the hell did your toilet water take have to do with the regular Joe’s opinion on music?
Please my favorite artists (Tyler being one of them) has Grammies, performed at shows, a staple name and has been around… no body is threatened by Ian’s 15 minutes of fame I promise you.
@@poetryismyting8854 Grammy white man awards. Funny you have no problem talking down Ian for being white but you sure do love raving about them giving you awards.
Nevertheless. Ian’s 15 minutes of fame is what makes you guys mad, and I find that quite funny
@@waynewayne8419 room temperature IQ, narrative spinning , can’t stay on topic… neeeext 🤣😂👎🏽
Pretty much, yeah.
He isn’t saying mid shouldn’t be used at all, it’s just overused
There’s too many people trying to have an opinion in hip hop that only listen to the most popular songs and artist atm.
Tyler should the last person talking about "mockery" when thats the exact same way he started his career by mocking New York artist...this situation is just "Right message, wrong messenger".
Nah cause yall crying about how artists aren’t taking music seriously yet you’re not searching in the underground for the style you’re looking for . Top of that anytime anyone tries to go Fully conscious yall then proceed to say its mid . Look at kendrick’s mr morale and the big steppers . Everyone tried to say that album was mid but he created a whole music therapy session album . Like this is my thing when are people going to wake up and realize you’re complaining to complain. you always say oh im tired of music about bitches money and cars and yet there you are blasting artists who then rap about subjects like that . Not to mention the music you’re looking is out there but its up to you to search but lets be real mos people don’t they just complain to complain. You buy the brand but you never really look at the quality . Its why mfs get certain clothes , shoes, even the car they drive if its not popular y’all don’t try to even attempt to hear it out . That’s why it feels music is dead . Idc if this is a big paragraph either
Post malone has been doing guitar and even country songs to a degree since his very first album. It seems pretty clear that he would turn to that kind of music for an album or two eventually
That’s what I’ve been saying. His first 2 albums were literally called “Stoney” and “Beer Pongs and Bentleys” lol. And he always sang, never really “rapped” per say. I don’t get the outrage… and he still hangs around rappers
Going to White Iverson to country music is crazy! That’s the issue. Most people complaining about his sharp turn toward country music are upset because white artists like him get to bend genres but Black artists are by and large limited to hip hop, rap, and r&b.
the issue is rappers today aren't creative, driven by only money and fame and they know no history of hip hop let alone respect and revere it. so u get what we got
its a reflection of the society/economy we currently participate in
Nas said all that nearly 20 years ago.... Tyler just getting old enough to fully understand the reality that's always been the case for decades
I would attribute that to the fact that most of the rappers that did love their craft almost all got exploited by the system at some point
@@jaden5843 YET I LIVE IN THIS SAME SOCIETY AND ECONOMY and would never treat hip hop this way..iguess cuz I grew up thru the 90s as well
You really think rappers of today arent creative when all we were getting back in the days were boom bap and conscious rap??? The variety is so much now that its unbelievable. What you're saying is simply untrue
To those saying Tyler is "old" - even as a young rapper, you could CLEARLY see that Tyler took rapping seriously. He took the art form seriously. It was in a non-convential way but he never cheated the game. Rappers today are cheating fans and programming them to like trash music with no authenticity behind it
Ian is an artist. His piano skills are crazy
The meat riding is insane 😭
I have no gripes with people who want to be fans of the very low quality opium type music or dudes like Ian. My gripe is when those people try to tell me something like a Tyler album for example, or literally ANY other artist who puts care into their music is trash or mid.
He's talking about people that just passively listen to whatever is popular and don't have any real opinions about music at all.
It's funny that it took so long (until this week) for Posty to release a country album. I was expecting him to drop it in like 2018 after those comments lol.
People need to know that even the criteria that you use is completely personal, some people use music as background music, and you know what? it's completely fine, you can like and dislike things for whatever the reason.
He’s completely right. Why do you think some albums feel like larger than life moments while others just feel like nothing. Even beyond just the quality of the music, the presentation of it is extremely important. Wether it’s music videos, concepts, visual teasers, album covers, etc
IVE BEEN FUCKING WAITING ON THIS
thankfully it isn't 5 months from now
Deo might be crazy
Was It worth it
Shawn seems to not understand that artists not even caring will spiral into no one caring about what they create and everything will be driven by investors and everything will become a watered down copy of what was successful
this Shawn Cee dude is way too nonchalant about everything. "Eh, it's not that deep", "Eh, it won't be around long", "Eh, it is what it is".
u shouldn't argue against passion. we're losing the meaning of everything
FYI not personally towards shawn, speaking generally
genuinely didn’t know who ian was and still dont
Same
That’s why I prefer to do full album reactions on my channel. Then I can intimately share my thoughts moment after moment and then do a different piece of content on how I feel on it after the fact later on
Truth is crazy in a world full of lies
a lot of people dont kno how ian rly came up in the ambient soundcloud scene for a loooooong ass time workin w people like cutspace and iokera (rip, love u 4ever) but thats a diff conversation
Shawn essentially arguing against having media literacy. We literally would go to school and have to give detailed reasons why we did or didn't like a book outside of just saying "it's boring". I think that's what Tyler is saying and what Shawn is missing - people aren't expected to engage with art with a critical lense and it's giving rise to bs, fast food rap music.
J cole exposed it. when he dropped that diss and so many people said "we can stop pretending kendricks music was good" why were you pretending 💀
i understand tyler's points but i don't see how someone enjoying a sound is wrong for taking inspiration regardless of race or ethnicity. There are a lot of people with talent, but Ian is popping in atl and his marketing/image is more engaging to people looking for something different, just like eminem or post. Its not meme music, people just genuinely enjoy his music lol. that shi just hatin
music has no standard, for a lot of "underground" artist that I see getting recognition it's just way to make money and I think they should be overlooked, they don't any music that has any meaning, no purpose, and that to me just takes away from the meaning of what being an artist is.
I mean just as people are allowed to be straightforward about music i think its fair for an artist like tyler to want people to intereact more with music. Its not like two absolutes, some people who don't think too much could do with some lessons on how they articulate music opinions, they might enjoy talking about music more with some tools
who tf is ian
I’m still tryna find jason
Right
🤔I was thinking the samething.
yall livin under a rock
Ppl who don’t take it seriously shouldn’t get paid seriously.
Here for the ian slander 🔥🔥
If you've watched the series Atlanta theres literally an episode about this
I think you can acknowledge that audiences need to stop boosting artists like Ian while still agreeing with Tyler here. He's not putting all of the responsibility on artists chasing trends. It's perfectly reasonable to express frustrations with it all
This is the say say people never did this with books. People also do not read that much any more.
Shawn is whole Tyler is talking about in terms of audience
yall stop quoting post malone out of context this is his full quote...mind you it was 2017 at the hight of mumble rap:
“If you’re looking for lyrics, if you’re looking to cry, if you’re looking to think about life, don’t listen to hip-hop,” he said. “There’s great hip-hop songs where they talk about life and they spit that real shit, but right now, there’s not a lot of people talking about shit.
“Whenever I want to cry,” he continued, “whenever I want to sit down and have a nice cry, I’ll listen to some Bob Dylan. But whenever I’m trying to have a good time and stay in a positive mood, I listen to hip-hop because it’s fun. I think hip-hop is important because it brings people together in a beautiful, happy way. Everybody’s happy.”
If it's mid - or trash to you, it's definitely reasons why. Just say you don't have the words to explain your reasoning.
Mid is not trash mid is mid. Tyler is mad cuz he been dropping mid lol don’t be mad if you in a mid slump lmao earl also dropping mid after mid
Mid is background af- listenable but not lifting
Your welcome
I feel like as a whole most people aren’t self aware or even emotionally intelligent enough to communicate why they like or dislike something. They just do because it’s in front of them to make a snap judgement on.
This is a conversation that should not only be aimed at rap or hip hop imo. This is just a music industry thing where uniqueness is seemed and rewarded at first but then copied if it can be. Blame can go on the artist that are not original or the fans that support it, but it needs to also go on the music industry that push these clones on us too. There are a bunch of unique artists that put a lot of thought into their art that are not pushed by algorithms, that won’t be found unless you feel like doing work to find them.
headline shouldn't even be a question. he is factually right, and this shouldn't even be debated lol
At the end of the day it doesn't matter people's opinion on the internet about how good a music is what matters is that Eminem just sold 500,000 albums in a month and people still don't understand why saying it ain't good
Tyler spitting 🔥
Yes
Lil Dicky 2.0
Tyler is right. And the music industry is flopping and steadily going back to talent and not who's "popular" on social media for f*ckery.
Some albums are literally just mid and have nothing to offer. I have SO MUCH to say about the albums I truly love. A good record is one that MAKES you listen closer and deeper; even a good pop album, which tends to have predictable lyrics, can make you appreciate it more if it’s genuinely enjoyable and refreshing. But the vast majority of music in general is mid tbh.
Tyler speaking the truth
3:00I think for the audience to do “deep” analysis on music the music has to genuinely have creative ideas in it…..but music has become more commodity than art
That post Malone exert from xxl magazine you have to think of where rap was at that time uzi ,juice,xxx,and other kinda emo rappers didn’t fully hit yet we were still living in a lil pump, smoke purp, designer, migos world so everything was pretty party centric so I can we’re he was coming from back then
You took a nugget out of the interview and disregarded the over arching theme to what he's saying. The people being pushed on the MASSES don't care about the art. That mindset trickles down to the average fan. If they don't value the art form and only look at it as a bag that way of thinking is detrimental to the art. That's how you get streaming and $0.001 for every 1000 streams or whatever the f it is. 'Old heads' been knew this was gonna happen. A change gon come but you cant sweep the cause and effect under the rug. If you don't understand history you're doomed to repeat.
Sadly ppl nowadays dont give a fuck about the quality of the music being played, thats why u have "Rappers" who cannot Rap, perfomers who cannot perform live its a playback of them, and everything gets excuse by music/art is subjetive, feel like thats just an excuse to include and make profit out of talentless ppl who claim to be artist without actually trying to one or improve on it, why would they? They dont care they just there for the money and thats ok the system allow it.
the same thing that's been happening to the visual arts for decades. We don't even have a renowned visual artist apart from maybe Banksy that a lot of people know or gravitate towards. Soon enough, the music will just be a money laundering operation.
The problem is that social media, mainly TikTok, is turning music into clips and not full bodies of work. Also, that style of consumption is chewing up artists' opprotunity to develop and get better because they only get any shine when a song is popular on TikTok.
i like how he's rapped about raping/killing people and THIS is why people get mad about
did you forget what tylers early music sounded like? Tyler came up in the rap game by being an edgelord who openly talked about raping people in the most explicit ways possible, bro has no reason to be trashing Ian
He’s clearly only talking about people who go out of their way to talk bad about someone’s music and not even be able to articulate themselves and just call the shit mid.
I just disagree with Shawn's entire opinion here wholeheartedly. It absolutely isnt unreasonable to expect the average person to know why they like a piece of music. You dont have to get super technical or have a degree in Music Theory or some shit in order to be able to articulate how an album made you feel, show that you understood what it was trying to say and do and then say whether or not you feel it was successful. Its not unreasonable to expect a person to pay attention to the art they consume.
6:10 what he was saying with that comment is people all over the place look and sound alike, it used to be they look and sound alike in a certain physical area, the internet made that all messed up.
Bro is hung up on the articulation part when the point he making is about the fact that the artists don't care about the music they're putting out so the fans become fans of industry rollouts and marketing schemes instead of actual music
holy shit welcome to the beginning of time, these aren’t new concepts
These aren’t new concepts but it’s at an all time high right now due to the microwaved nature of the music industry in 2024
@@ShawnCeeLIVEIf you can't even acknowledge that in recent years issues like that have gotten worse and worse then no one can have this conversation with you because clearly you live on a different planet
@@trashdoge1217 they really haven’t though. the shits always been a business you’re just older now so you realize it.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE they arent new concepts, but they have become prevalent to a damaging degree in a way that they werent in the past.
I agree, in a sense that anyone should be free to say mid, and that should encapsulate their thoughts. But a lot of the kids who say it, say it without knowing why they dislike it. It’s a good skill to have, being able to look into yourself to find out what you like, or dislike. Imagine you go on a date (hard to imagine I know) and you don’t like the date. If you can’t understand why you dislike her or the date, you will 100% repeat the mistake because you can’t reflect.
Tyler is an artist , content creators don’t understand art.
I see both their points ! I def agree with the idea that the artistry is lacking . I feel like the internet has given people a lot of false confidence , to where people self proclaim themselves as this or that because of followers , views or content . As a result doctors, journalist , musicians . That now talent , skill , and experience is very much often over looked .
Songs are getting ridiculous short 😭 and I want it to stop .
Tyler speaks about art, from an artists perspective ... not from the "I need money" or "I want that image" perspective. He speaks about love!
I feel like the ease of access to music definitely plays a role here in the shallowness of critique. You had to drop $15 for an album (or more for a physical sometimes) so you had to sit with your purchases. Now, you don't have to sit with a project you were lukewarm on after one listen because you can put on literally any other song in the history of music instead.
I remember buying a few albums that I wanted to like that I was disappointed by, and sitting with them because I felt like I was wasting my money otherwise made me form more detailed opinions about the music (e.g. I was so pressed when I bought 808s and Heartbreak initially but ended up coming around on the majority of it)
It seems as though Tyler is saying/suggesting that due to the lack of good criticism, the quality of music has dropped and the standards have dropped too. No, not everyone has to be a critic/journalist but there’s a reason why the eras with gatekeepers produced such good music AND that music made it to the mainstream. Unlike now where a mainstream song from a mainstream artist that’s also great, instead of a carbon copy of the last ear worm that was good enough to play on radio, is like a random breath of fresh air while walking through a landfill.
TLDR: the industry works best like an ecosystem. Without great musicians, we don’t get great music but we don’t get great music unless we have great critics who tell it as it is.
i need tylers thoughts on brennan jones now
Brennan jones the goat tho
I only have 3 subscribers but I love all of my rap songs that I make and upload on UA-cam. Whether if i have a million or just 3 subscribers my passion for rap music will never change.
Mediocrity should never be encouraged in any facet of society. It can be accepted but never encouraged.
I disagree with Shawn. From 1:12
It’s not that we’re going back to people being binary about their opinion, people just didn’t have internet and a sense that they can put an opinion out and somebody would actually listen or have a reaction to it.
Nowadays subconsciously, the need to be a valued individual is so high cause of the presence the internet creates of a person that even the comment section is a hotspot for likes and “look how funny I am, intellectual i am”
And everybody has a mutual understanding to this is current state of the internet.
So what Tyler is saying is absolutely true. And I disagree with Shawn.
And I’ve loved his content for years, I remember watching the reaction video for DAMN. And I can see how he has changed through the years, he actually cared about music before, and now he just skims through music, at least that’s what I feel.
7:26 this was a great perspective
I do feel that way about Tyler’s music.
Shawn you go bro climb to the top Fav atm
Its just hype culture and echo chambers
This isn’t even a point of controversy foreal.
Ian just sucks
Once again, Tyler seems to be forgetting that he literally came onto the scene trolling mainstream rap 😂😂😂
Shawn’s point about Ian is actually so true. I think they’re both right cause it still matters even if it lasts a bit. At least to me it would
In my opinion, Post Malone was never rapping like that. He always sang in his melodic tone. The type beats have just changed with each album so I’m not as mad as everyone else is trying to be
Like he even still uses that same white Iverson/Congratulations melodies and same subject matters. The newer songs just have lower drums and no hihats
Tyler the creator owes his whole come up to the emo goth white kid slash skateboard culture shit which was so alien to hiphop at the time. This is even before trukfit era Wayne. Watch Earl's debut single Earl from 2010. Watch the music video. You have never seen no black kid act like that pn camera before. Tyler should be the last person to be talking about leeching off cultures.
5:53 yeah the fans should protest and not purchasing tickets to a bad show, the artists need to realize that theyre bad at performing tho
I really feel like Ian just rapping 🤷🏿♂️ not talking about killing , trapping or being from the trenches he literally is just rapping about rich stuff which it looks like he actually came from so I don’t really see the problem.
Am i missing someting in this whole ian discourse? Where was he ever mocking the rappers he talked about,
He didn’t, Tyler just doesn’t like that a white boy is doing the same thing he did a few years ago
@@farikoliquidz4606 he's directly ripping off those artists mentioned with no care and putting on the fakest blaccent while doing it. yall are slow asf
@@user-mc3qv4pw1p oh no a white guy has an accent! He must be doing it to sound black it couldn’t be anything else at all! Slow ass mf I guess Tyler is trying to be white on flower boy 🤣
@@user-mc3qv4pw1p so I can assume Beyoncé is trying to be a white woman by putting on a fake country accent right? And lil nas X? And Tyler himself when he cried like a lil white boy on the entire flower boy album?
@@farikoliquidz4606Beyonce is from Texas. You must've never heard her talk, she clearly has a southern accent. Is it put on a lil more for the country aesthetic, yes. But all country music since around 05-06 has blatantly enhance southern accents.
There are tons of people that choose to eat McDonalds and other fast food and consider that the pinnacle of food. On so many objective measures that is false, including what it’s doing to your body. As much as people want to be “post-Modern” with opinions (ie everyone’s opinion is valid, there is no real objective standard, everything is everything, blah blah blah) there are real things you can point at in art that makes it good or bad or mid. Not knowing those reasons doesn’t make those reason less real. An informed opinion does matter more than an uninformed opinion. Just because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean you provide any value to the rest of humanity. We all have feelings about stuff, but there are some human beings that have done things that have changed the course of history and made our lives better (like the people who have contributed to make this social media platform your profit off). In the same vein, some opinions really do matter more than others. Until we can all let go of our egos and be at peace with that fact, the internet will be continued to be swarmed with trash content and even trashier opinions.
We went from Ian sounds like Yeat to Ian sounds like Future… bro is gaining more relevance oi?