Skyrim's Geography Problem- World Building
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
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0:00 Talking bout a 9-year-old game
1:00 Solitude
3:33 Markarth
5:29 Riften
7:04 Windhelm
9:03 Winterhold
10:17 Whiterun
13:00 Morthal
13:25 Dawnstar
14:19 Falkreath
16:08 Decisions
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• Daggerfall Soundtrack ...
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Hey, uh, just a note; most people miss it so I don't blame you. There is no reasonable way to get to Solitude from Markarth or vice-versa. It doesn't look that way on a map, but the way the mountains and rivers work out, it's near to impossible to get through without hurting yourself even doing the whole 'glitch up the sides of mountains' thing. You have to go out through Whiterun, specifically Robber's Gorge, then over the Dragon Bridge. The northern bit of the Reach, on the northern side of the river that goes to the edge of the map, is only really road-accessible from Solitude's side.
If you travel the roads of the Skyrim long enough, you start to realize the Robber's Gorge, the Labyrinthian, the confusing and dangerous goatpaths in the Stonechills east of them, Fort Dunstad, Wayward Pass, and Fort Kastav are the gates of a functional wall that extends all the way to the western edge of the province.
Please, I am asking with all due sincerity, release the total war-esque scenario video showing the battles that formed the different kingdoms of Skyrim. That would make my month.
You should look at the Holds The City Overhaul mod, it adds a lot to the cities and villages in the game giving them all their unique own feel. It even gives Falkreath and Dawnstar a world space of their own, Turing them into proper cities with their own look and feel.
That's Equality for you!
You forgot to mention about Riften, they have a narrow pass before you can actually reach Routen that is easily defensible, so is the pass between the throat of the world and the next town over in riftens territory
Dawnstar's economy relies on infinite valuables obtained from a magical, invisible chest, under a tree.
That is replenished by punching a cat
@@redfox3396 squish that cat
@@redfox3396 now that's the kind of groundbreaking worldbuilding I'm looking for in my fantasy.
markhart and solitude too
Dawnstars True claim is it's actually a Khajiti Colony. Being at the end of a Moonpath to Elsewyr.
Travelvers from there naturally end at Dawnstar and constant trade from around skyrim by Khajit caravans lets the khajit smuggle things back and forth.
>Morrowind isn't actioned packed or exciting
>Proceeds to talk about fantasy economics and finance
Based.
Based
Based
Based.
But it is interesting
It always bothered me in fiction how they just remove farmland like it wasn't the largest use of space for most of human existence. Where does food come from? Magic?
but towers and shit are so much coooooler
@@yourehereforthatarentyou Split the baby: farm towers.
@@destructulus 🤔🤔🤔
@@destructulus Medieval Arcologies powered by Magic. :D
Thats something The Witcher 3 did well. when riding anywhere, half the time your riding through some peasants crop field.
Just so you know Morthal is an arctic swamp or Muskeg. These are too cold for diseases to form as fast as you say they would.
Also most of Skyrim's soil is permafrost ridden and thus unable to be farmed successfully. (Except for around the Rift, Falkreath & the Reach but the Reach is too rocky)
god, skyrim is a shit hole
It's funny because in Arena the Reach was literally the only place that crops could grow. The whole of Skyrim save for Breton riddled Reach was a frozen hellhole. Global warming ain't a hoax in Tamriel lmao
@Polarisque Shame those farms are jokes.
Funny enough, Rorikstead grows a lot of crops, to the point where players expect a daedric prince is involved. Sacrifice the mothers so the food grows better.
If you consider the soil permafrost then its siberia 1600 barely even a village of 5 hut ( wait this is the size of some game village) but anyway taking to account thisbmake the all thing hard for 1 or 2 city at best with the sea or the mountain pass and being bailed oit by the other population
>5th grade
>2011
Oh no, I'm old
Same. Lol I was a sophomore when oblivion came out... So...
Jeez that means what I am 6 years older then Stoneworks. Also why the morrowind hate its way better
@@DiploRaptor who hated on morrowind? Lol
@@markbyrd7710 I had just joined the Navy when Morrowind came out. I played Daggerfall in Jr High.
I played this in 5th grade, I’m 14 now. Give remastered edition all the shit it deserves, but that’s two separate generations growing up with Skyrim.
Lol all agriculture in the reach would consist of nomadic goat herders.
Ah yes, Mountain Pastoralism, not really conducive to being much more than some neat regional mercenaries.
You'd also have hunting and river fishing on the part of the Forsworn. They would actually thrive if they adopted pastoralism of goats and hardy mountain cattle while unifying to drive out foreigners and transform the region into their own loosely-bound tribal domain. Plus living in strongholds and forging metal wouldn't hurt. More or less live like the portrayal of the Nords suggested in the earlier games. Like the Germanic barbarians, Picts, or even the fictional northern tribes like the Vanir and Cimmerians of the works of Robert E. Howard and his Conan stories.
@@robertcorbell1006 It's worth noting that their weaponry is actually better than steel somehow in-game.
Ever since I played Skyrim I was like “The holds are to small, how is Skyrim even a country?” Honestly if the map was bigger and if all the rivers didn’t have waterfalls Skyrim could be a realistic country.
sadly, for sake of 2011 game performance, they had to make it small, no matter how cool it would be if it were more realistic
@Higgor Francis Germany? No, i am thinking either more like the continental U.S. or half the size of U.S..
Ever been in Russia? Northmen in every universe create statehood where it shouldn't logically exist.
@@EiriktheNordAndersen-ju4gl no way. I noticed it takes about 4 hrs(in game) to get from a mill east of ivarstead to whiterun by jogging. At MOST its about the size of southern California
You might be interested in trying Daggerfall then! If just to realize that the shrunk size is not just due to hardware limitations, but also due to the need to make the game digestible, fun and well-paced.
But yes, the cities themselves would have been better about twice the size.
Canonically, the game world of Daggerfall is the size of the United Kingdom. Scaling that to the rest of the continent and you end up with Skyrim being almost as big as Kazakhstan.
So maybe the map would be different based off that. Whiterun could totally Mongol expand through the plains, but Markarth might have a bit of an issue projecting power through that many rocks. And I don't see Falkreath getting conquered, they'd be about the size of Belarus and would be perfectly capable of defending themselves with their nice warm climate.
At the point you have the opposite problem- medieval logistics could not sustain trade and resource management, at least without way more horses, which Skyrim does not have a lot of
@@frenchguitarguy1091 On the other hand, the horses it does have are implacable divine beasts that can ride up sheer cliffs. Something to be said for quality over quantity.
@@felonyx5123 and run at a light jog.
ALL THE TIME.
@@frenchguitarguy1091 judging from Lore vs Gameplay I’m willing to hand wave things like the amount of horses they have and how big their cities are. Whiterun is implied to be bigger than what we see in game and Skyrim is a much bigger country than it appears in game.
I thought Daggerfall was only the size of England not all of the UK
Honestly, the geography and geopolitics of Skyrim are why I've always looked down on the Stormcloaks. During the Ceasefire Negotiations, the two sides are asked to exchange control of a city each. The Imperials ask for Riften; it makes sense, the hold can be easily accessed from Falkreath and Whiterun, and so the Imperials can easily project power to the city. By contrast, the Stormcloaks ask for Markarth, a hold which is surrounded by Imperial held holds, is cut off from supply lines to the rest of the Stormcloak territories, and is already filled with a local insurgency that has every reason to hate Jarl Ulfric specifically. There's no way the Stormcloaks would be able to maintain control of the city.
Not to mention Markarth has Imperial-aligned High Rock to the west, whereas Riften only has neutral Morrowind to the east.
I've been looking at the files for that because I want to mod the peace deal to my liking, and it looked like the original demand for both sides was going to be Whiterun but they couldn't fit the civil war questline around it. Even the dialogue makes wayy too much sense, between Tullius' "so you came here to win at the table what you couldn't on the battlefield" and Baalgruf's "is this how the empire repays us for our loyalty?" when Tullius considers it anyway.
I would personally have them ask for Falkreath so as to block the Empire from resupplying the legion by land, which iirc they canonically can't at the start of the game because the Pale Pass is treacherous in winter. That'd be a very reasonable demand for Ulfric to make to agree to a truce if he could conceivably be running out of time to go on the offensive. Although, Markarth is very easily defensible by itself and they have a lot of sympathy there what with the Forsworn, so it's not that bad of a demand if they just want it for the silver mines.
To add to this:
Why the hell do they even want markarth? Its a corrupt shithole, that doesnt even have a corrupt underworld they could make a deal with, its access to resources and land is pitiful and there's absolutely nothing worthwhile about it.
If anything, markarth is a giant drain on skyrim's economy because it produces nothing except thieves and robbers for the other provinces, and is probably receiving handouts from the others just to stay alive
I see your point, but also the Silverbloods are staunchly Stormcloak, and the only reason Markarth is Imperial is because the Thalmor pushed their weight around; if it kept the Civil War going in the long run, they would absolutely support Markarth being given to the Stormcloaks.
And the Foresworn are just as opposed to the Empire as to the Stormcloaks; the Empire controls the hold at the start of the game, yet they've allowed Madonach and all the other Foresworn, guilty or not, to remain in prison, and the Forsworn killed the previous Jarl whose loyalty to the Empire was amply proven during the Markarth Incident. Don't let "The Bear of Markarth" book fool you; the Empire happily let the Silverbloods put the Foresworn leaders into prison. If they're oh so Foresworn friendly as the book implies, why didn't they free Madanach and give him Markarth? Because it makes access to the silver mines much harder AND gets rid of the main work force taking the silver out of the ground.
Whiterun would be my vote, if only one hold could win.
This. But only if Balgruuf is in charge. He seems to be the only one in the civil war keeping a cool enough head to read the macro and maintain at least neutral relations with his neighbors, and quite well at that.
Didn’t work very well when I along with like four stormcloaks singlehandedly conquered the city and made Balgruuf Abdicate
@@ygslyn6732 skyrim logic = saaaaddd :(
White run is the most likely winner, as long as Balgruf is in charge, and is neutral.
The Dragonborn, and about 50 Stormclocks would have something to say about that
If you wanted to obliterate the cities, you could catapult the mountains next to Windhelm and Markarth and let the rock do the work.
Stoney Stoneworks boy likes this
@@Stoneworks il do you one better...
Warwolf
With the amount of dungeons in this land it would be enough to send them all your gold and silver and they would just collapse like gran soren
@@60sspider-man29 Even after they've surrendered, i'd still fire it.
@@SPSguy836 yeah... But the dock workers...
Well i guess if they were fast enough they could jump in the water and swiiiimm on outta there.
Dawnstar in Lore was supposed to be this grand city on par with Windhelm and Winterhold (Pre-Collapse), people from there were like super prideful of the city and Hold and there were lines mentioning it in every game (stuff like there being a massive wall and dock and stuff)... then we get to Skyrim and it's five fishing huts, two mines and a tower
look at Daggerfall cities for comparison to skyrims or the province
bethesda down side so they can do 3d if we upsized the stuff then those place would be like the books say they are
the best way to review/theory on skyrim would be to take into account the lore size
I was drawing with this video playing in the background, i paused it to go grab coffee, only to see Simon getting head on a mountain as the narrator explains how whiterun could control the upriver area, this was certainly unexpected
He's getting the Throat of the World
@@wenderia7990 💀💀
How is Riften going to use a river navy if the only rivers literally lead down into a huge waterfall?
He said pretend the rivers are navigable.
@@venatortheanimefan4526 highkey always hated the rivers in-game
Like yeah I get it and I like the waterfalls but like
Let me Swim
They would have their Naval base at the base of the waterfall.
@@nicestpancake Even better let me have ships.
@@nicestpancake swim over the waterfall
I'm kind of wondering what the world building of Skyrim would be like if it did not retcon most of the pre-Skyrim lore on Skyrim.
They also retconned cyrodiil, speaking as if that region was a jungle, talks of the imperial city being so big that there are multiple rivers going through that city. But most things have changed to make better gameplay.
@@dashua1735 Didn't they make a whole retcon where Talos, or someone, remade the climate of Tamriel from tropical to temperate in a dragon break or some other mumbo jumbo?
@@BNK2442 Yeah I guess they really wanted to explain why Cyrodill look so different from how it was described in previous games
@It's Because Less models, textures and entities to load, less FPS issues
@It's Because if my old 360 or even my old pc had to render a jungle as its decribed they would explode.
Lore wise, the most successful farmland is Rorikstead and nords are more known to raise cattle more than anything and bees for honey and wax but Skyrim is shown as a very wild place more centered on exploration. Hunting or poaching is a very prominent job and the majority of the people you meet outside of cities are hunters so people are most likely going to have a lot more meat in their diet.
In a unified skyrim, Whiterun would be the capital in either scenario, simply because Falkreath is the first defensible point against the Empire (via Pale Pass) and is directly accessible to Whiterun via the river (and ultimately to the sea through Windhelm), and Whiterun has ALL the food, plus Dragonhold. Following the events of the game, --Dragonhold-- Dragonsreach will have ACTUALLY HELD A DRAGON. That's incredible. Furthermore:
1) If the Imperials win, they will want to start mining skyrim to produce weapons and armor for the inevitable war with the thalmor. These materials basically can't go along the sea unless they want to go through high rock, hammerfell and thalmor waters before sneaking into the gold coast through Anvil. And even then, like you said, it'd be seasonal. They have to use Pale Pass. And the nexus of all the rivers that connect to Falkreath is Whiterun, which is also far more defensible than Falkreath. I could see Falkreath actually becoming the first new Duchy/County of Cyrodiil in this case, with a relationship with Bruma County.
2) If the stormcloaks win, they will obviously want to defend Pale Pass for similar reasons that the Imperials would want to use it for trading/shipping. Once again, Falkreath would make a good fort, but not a good capitol in this case. Ergo, Whiterun.
Exactly my thoughts.
Since i'm making a strongly modded roleplay of a new character that's supposed to become the High King of Skyrime while recognizing the suzerainity of the Empire in order to fight the Thalmors.
I even made his capital Whiterun, but I wanted to add a palace/castle near Fort Greymoor or on top of it (like the mod dragonskeep does) but since I want everything to be as lore grounded and materially realistic as possible, I'm still hesitating, I mean, how can a castle/palace exist without draining money and people to it, and since there's a war being prepared that didnt look realistic to me.
Anyway, just sharing a story here for no reason.
Falkreaths my favorite hold but you’re right, Whiterun is clearly the realistic capital if Skyrim is united, but only if it isn’t ganged up on and carved apart by literally every other hold during a time of weakness, but based on its strengths I can see it fighting them off or at least a stalemate if it had good leadership, main rival i envision would be solitude, the two fighting over markarth and dragonbridge, if whiterun wants to cripple I can see them attempt to deny solitude morthal, thus cutting off their only real source of food, but I can see solitude trying to ally with windhelm, falkreath and/or righten in an attempt to overwhelm. Whiterun, to prevent this, I’d think would lean politically, militarily and economically on first falkreath for the pale pass, cultural importance and the mines, then either windhealm or winterhold, first for access to ocean trade and trade with morrowind, second for the Magic, then attempt to ally with the rift, saying this I doubt Whiterun would outright conquer the other holds but more likely slowly build up their influence and power over them then turn em into vassals in which they would continue to influence/assimilate em to either forming a sorta commonwealth with Whiterun as the leader or simply annex them and turn em into provinces, and so on
When my dragonborn conquered the whole Skyrim and became high king he made Ivarstead the capital.
No, just the land around the pass. Not like we are going to invade Cyrodiil.
@@RenanL.S. Pretty good choice, ngl. I would have gone for Rorikstead though. Just because of the songs you know.
6:10 care to explain what the greybears are up to?
That's Simon, who is getting the best head.
@@jackvetter7034 Theodore is actually getting the best head
@@jackvetter7034 this is a hilarious comment jack I'm so proud of you
@@jackvetter7034 Dude's getting to experience the Throat of the World
Raptors lmao
3:45 their symbol is a ram, if Bethesda bothered to think about what people are eating, they would be shepherds who live on mutton and sheep's milk, and Solitude would have a fishery. If I had the time I would want to learn how to mod so I could make a mod called "A Nord's Gotta Eat", ask permission to use someone's sheep models (probably mihail) and make some farms, and add more Hunters in the Rift and Falkreath. Add mutton as loot and an option for cooking, add a fishery near the mouth of the Karth, far enough from solitude that it won't conflict with exterior expansions like the Great city of Solitude and more fisheries near Windhelm, Dawnstar, and Winterhold.
That sounds like a brilliant idea.
Make the already existing farm around Whiterun have bigger fields(because those tiny plots of lands are just stupid) And more farms through out Whiterun. The best things Dawnstar could do are horker/whale hunting and deer breeding. Winterhold needs a harbor so horker and whale hunting.
While you are at it, could you maybe just make the whole map bigger in terms of surface area? while keeping the relative distances, of course. The map and everything in it is hilariously small.
@@OnlyDeathIsEternal I feel like the Skaal probably breed deer in addition to their horker hunting. Their clothing and culture give me mean Sami people of Finland vibes.
@@OnlyDeathIsEternal I feel like doing that to a greater extent than immersive farms already does would have mad compatibility issues but if I were to do it I would probably make it a seperate optional plugin. And it would probably expand the farms around Rorikstead even more than around Whiterun. Someone also just came out with a model for those furry tusk centipede things that the Orcs tame, maybe some pens with those and maybe some goats too could go around the strongholds later on for "An Orc's gotta eat".
Best area in skyrim in my opinion is Ivarstead. The Throat of the World dominates one side of the town with an autumn forest on the other side. The town is remote, far from Whiterun and Riften. The mountain and forests surrounding it make it a secluded location
Do you mean the best area to settle down? I would agree on that
I would like to se a series like this for every province, and then all tamriel. That would be beyond amazing.
Edit: I know about the geopolitics of Tamriel video, but I would be talking more specifically about how each city would function like is shown in this video.
If he doesn't do something like that, then I will literally make Dawnstar the capitol of Skyrim, just to spite him
@@french_bread4961 or worse, morthal
@@yourehereforthatarentyou, Impossible, their lips are too stuck up in Solitude's ass to do literally anything...
It's a serious geopolitical condition you see.
@@french_bread4961 true but morthal has literally nothing other than the vamprism cure dude
dawnstar at least has the DB sanctuary
@@yourehereforthatarentyou morthals jarl can see the future and is my best friend she could take the throne of the high king herself
To be honest i didn't even know Falkreath existed until I was like 100 hours into the game. And even then I only found out about it when I stumbled upon it by complete accident.
Falkreath is fucking amazing and its hold is the most beutiful, change my mind but also yes
I went straight to Falkreath the first time I played the game I just ignored the marker to go to Riverwood
Did you not get the letter from the Jarl of Falkreath from the courier?
@@obwolf Honestly Falkreath Hold makes a decent early game area to adventure in, if you're tired of Whiterun hold.
Well get your eyes checked. It’s on the map 24/7
Finally stopped praising about morrowind to us. but will never stop smack talking my argonian lifestyle.
I heard you were talking snack
NI- NI - NI - NI - NI - NI
Just for you people interested in Arena it was explained that the reach and falkreath were the only farmable lands in Skyrim while the rest of the country was akin to the Russian Tundra and there was some 30 villages scattered around the kingdom.
@Drew Taylor None of what has happened since then is confirmed to have altered the climate meaning everything is still permafrost/tundra.
If whiterun teamed up with falkreath they would be unstoppable. With adequate manpower, amazing crops and foods, access to river and water sources, and trade routes with cyrodil, they would be an unstoppable force
white teamed up with falkreath = whiterun conquered falkreath. i could deffo see whiterun invading falkreath and forcing it to merge. even if it was a mutual agreement tho and became one new, giant province, i can’t see falkreath winning the name game. therefore, it’s just whiterun now lmao
@@thatb1h855 I'd say that both Whiterun and Falkreath benefit from a mutual alliance moreso than either side conquering the other. I could see such a relationship between them be fairly easy to maintain and also be the most realistic one to occur naturally. Most other "alliances" that would occur in Skyrim would have a clear ruling power in it but the WR-FK alliance would be the only one built on both sides being equal.
Of course said partnership might change in nature overtime depending on how the political situation within Skyrim changes but I doubt it would be in ways that would make the alliance any less valid
An alliance between Windhelm & Riften has all the same advantages but also a land & sea route with Morrowind for trade making it the superior alliance.
@@jacobhoover1654 Windhelm is on sea level, Riften is on plateau super-high above Windhelm. So the accessibility is worse.
@@dasik84 Windlem & Riften are connected by road, Riften has a road into Morrowind. What accessibility issue are you talking about?
I think it plausible that Markarth remains Nordic, but it would most likely have high security needs in maintaining road networks with forts and checkpoints, which would encourage lots of legionaries, lots of local nord guards and large mercenary companies to protect merchants, notably the food supplies and silver shipments, which given the region, would most likely attract work for many orcs.
The only parts of the Reach that are truly Nordic are Markarth and a couple of mines. The gold mine keeps getting re-taken by the Forsworn, and basically outside of Markarth the entire hold is run by the Forsworn. And the Forsworn are incorrigible zealots who will NEVER stop trying to disrupt the Nordic government. If I were the Nordic jarl, I would negotiate a semi-democratic power-sharing arrangement by creating a High Council with both Nordic and Breton representatives, ceding most of the jarl's power to the council. Otherwise the Reach can never be at peace.
@@richardreinertson1335 or... Or... Hear me out, what if the... Dragonborn just takes the fight to the Forsworn with an army of either Imperials or Stormcloaks and he would be on the back of Odaviing just burning all of the forsworn encampments since they like using leather and fur
@@donutlovingwerewolf8837 That is genocide, and I can't condone it.
@@richardreinertson1335 Well i mean, The forsworn worship like 2 or 3 daedric princes, And they slaughter people plus they work with Hagravens and look like savager versions of normal bandits
@@donutlovingwerewolf8837 In my play-throughs, I do errands for daedric princes. Yet I count myself a good person. The Forsworn are a people robbed of their land and self-governance. If that happened to you, would you just be a doormat? Or would you try to take back what was stolen from you? And btw the Nord rulers have been barbaric also. Did you do the Forsworn Conspiracy quest? If not, you might find it enlightening.
In fact in Skyrim, there is a suggestion of tension between Whiterun and Falkreath. When the dragon attacks helgen and Irileth suggests sending a detachment to riverwood. Avenicci suggests its bad idea because the Jarl would view it as a provocation.
That could also be less a hint of personal tension between Whiterun and Falkreath and moreso just the general tension that all Holds have with those they aren't directly allied with. Whiterun sending a bunch of soldiers Falkreath-ward without any explanation while FK is Empire-aligned and WR is still neutral would be a major red flag after all, no matter what personal history the two Holds would have had previously.
I just love how riftens a river city but the river it more like a lake and it's only really good for going to honey mead farm and back.
Gotta say it's weird as hell to see people younger than me making the kinds of stuff I loved to watch ten years ago with newer properties. Even morso when I remember that the last ten years is quite literally 1/4th-1/3rd of the internet's entire lifetime. Still *sips late-millennial hot chocolate* fun to watch.
And, a tip for fellow travelers: it's much faster and easier to travel the road north through that valley with the Nightgate Inn that Dawnstar inexplicably controls, or the pass between Falkreath and the Rift, than it is to take the road past the falls directly east from Whiterun. I've played this game entirely without fast travel for several years now, believe me, I know.
Without any fast travel at all, sure....
What of the mountain passage next to the whiterun stormcloak camp?
@@ethansmith8813 It's worse than the maze between stonechills and stonechill bluff, and you don't realize this until you've tried to use it as a shortcut a few hundred times and kept popping out of the hills in the wrong place.
At the very least, I couldn't grasp how to navigate it properly.
bruh,
Imagine playing without fast travel. Fucking madman
@@EddyQTooReal its pretty nice when you add campfire, food-drink-disease and cold mods to it. together with backpack mods and enhanced economy it makes for an awesome Hiking Simulator. Quite relaxing!
Please, I am asking with all due sincerity, release the total war-esque scenario video showing the battles that formed the different kingdoms of Skyrim. That would make my month.
Ya'know, every few months I circulate back to this video in the hopes that the total war scenario may have dropped. I think it was clear two years ago that it wasn't coming, but a man can dream.
Isn’t there an Imperial camp near the Helgen Pass on the Riften side? I mean that would literally be a perfect place for a fort to be for Riften.
There is, and there’s also a Stormcloak camp somewhere in that pass. The imperial camp would be a great fortress, yeah.
@@AtlasNL oh yeah I recall that its near that alchemists hut
Any day is a good day when Stoney uploads
The thing about Falkreath is when we actually play in Skyrim during the civil war, Pale Pass has been closed off due to avalanches.
along with the other roots into skyrim from the south the Jerall Mountains prove to be easy to block for nordic defence
"I don't think Falkreath would be the city to go out and conquer the whole province"
*Talos has entered the chat*
Imagine if Ulfric and their Stormcloaks outlook, instead of making them xenophobic towards everyone, only really made them suspicious of imperials and imperial aligned people’s, as well as altmer and aldmeri dominion aligned people’s, and find common cause with any rebels or those who threw off control from either. Dark Elves; Nords and Redguards mainly.
then there will be a clear good guy - bad guy line. Besides, I find the idea that a popular revolt in Skyrim is motivated only by political conflicts with the Empire and the Dominion, and not involving any sort of racial/ethno tension within its society.
@@lcmiracle true though everyone seems to shit on the stormcloaks as if they are the bad guys anyways
@@JL-ti3us
That is because they are on Thalmor payroll
@@lcmiracle No there would be less of a clear good guy - bad guy line than there is now. The Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist pricks who get a lot of their resources from the even bigger racists that they claim to oppose, and the Imperials are just trying to hold the lands they already rule, seems pretty clear who is good and bad when you look at it that way.
@@highrhino Stormcloaks are ukrainians who rebel against Empire/Russia because WhiteGoldConcordat/BrestLitovskTreaty with the Thalmor/Germans was humiliating. To do so, they get money from the Thalmor/Germans to create their independent state and inevitably get absorbed by them. That's my headcanon :)
Honestly I see Solitude as the winner in a battle royal over the province. Despite Falkreath guarding the only pass into Cyrodil Solitude is the legitimate capitol of Skyrim and so unless the Jarl of Falkreath could present a valid case the Empire would back up their garrison in the capitol city. Theres no real way Ulfric could win the civil war; he has the charisma but the racism of his movement only serves to cut himself and the rest of the Nords off from the world at large. I know thats the point but the Nords of Skyrim just aren't unified enough to win a civil war and then defend the province from enemies both within and without. Whiterun is a great central power but it just doesn't have the military power to excert control beyond its own borders. Riften is too corrupt to control anything beyond its own borders. Winterhold is barely hanging on with its only real export being mages and magical goods from the college. Dawnstar is Dawnstar and Markarth is a literal hole in the ground; that territory can't even control its domestic terror problem, how is it supposed to rule a whole province?
While Ulfric really has no right to win the civil war Windhelm is a great candidate because of the power of its positioning. Realistically the rivalry between Solitude and Windhelm is the same as the Union and the Confederacy. In the time of the civil war Solitude has the equipment and manpower but Windhelm has the experienced soldiers to counter. Its not enough to win but they could very well put up a good fight.
Eh, if the could find a way to use all that dwemmer space for agriculture markarth has a shot, I mean it’s mostly the fact that it’s impenetrable, and can sally raids into whoever they’d be behind, it’s not necessary a king, but makes a pretty good kingmaker.
skyrim diplomacy when? gimme falkreath ill prove u wrong
I was just thinking this. Are there already additional rules for convoying units across seasonal waters? Wouldn't be able to convoy across the Sea of Ghosts in the Spring phase, I suppose.
Whiterun is like Swadia in Mount & Blade, enemys in every direction
I think this is a case of Gameplay and Story Segregation. They wanted to make a world big enough to explore, yet small enough so that you would find mysteries behind every rock and tree. They didn't want to program a vast emptiness filled with boring farmland and villages with nothing to do in them (like many newer Open World games, which are too empty to justify their existence).
exactly. this is probably the shrank down by the factor of 10-50 of the "real skyrim" we would need to imagine. Each city there has maximum 60 inhabitants which in RL is not even a village. We need to imagine that each inhabitant rather represents 10-100
Cities have thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people living in it. Imagine the imperial city? At least half a million people living in it. Obviously scaled down for gameplay mechanics but imagine a tv show with realistic proportions
@@xBioSaturn I wouldn't say half a million is realistic. I'm from a 10 million country and only one city has a million, the third biggest city has 330k and only few others have over 100k. And we're living now, in 2022.
Tamriel is a medieval world, with huge mortality (bandits, monsters, diseases). Imperial City could have 50k max. Maybe 100k if the gods have a very good day but that's not probable.
@@dasik84 westeros has a population of half a million
@@xBioSaturn Then I'm right.
If the entire continent has only half a million, then King's Landing can have 75k max.
Skyrim's map is extremely downscaled because of limitations of the engine and console systems at the time, but not in the lore. In one of the books, The real Barenziah if i'm not mistaken, it tells the story of someone that had to travel from Rorikstead to Riften, and it took weeks to get there.
Exactly, and we can assume that the canon wars for example, are much larger and involve more men. There are probably even cavalry units in the game that couldn’t be depicted by the engine (as he mentions, Whiterun has got a very Rohan vibe to it, with the horse being their emblem).
Just Simon at the throat of the world 😂
Falkreath: Oh boy I do love grillin
Pale Pass: Imperial legion sounds
Markarth feels less like an actual city and more like a Helm's Deep type area where the High Kings of Solitude would escape to during an invasion from sea
In the lore, Falkreath actually did have empire ambitions way back in the day... formed a little thing you might know: The Septim Empire.
Winterhold is a college town. Lol
Honestly each part of Skyrim gets way more from being apart of the greater whole. Like every jarldom relies on another jarldom for specific resources. I’d say Whiterun because it’s become a diplomatic hub and everyone would get together and vote on a high king.
Which is what kind of happened.
"Apart" means the exact opposite of what you meant.
@@dasik84 or you could use two braincells and look at the context clues to figure out that if you add a space between a and p it becomes a part. Which fits the sentence much better
I imagine that section between the East basin and Whiterun being the most heavily fortified place in Skyrim outside of border posts and Markarth.
People too often overlook that the holds have different seasons, not just climates. The Pale, for instance, probably looks a lot like Falkreath in Summer.
But the game won’t do that anyway
Pale has no trees. So in the best case, it's just a tundra like Whiterun.
Skyrim food acquisition must be; Hunting 50%, Fishing 25%, farming 20%, trade 5% or something like that. I say that hunting is so high because you do see more hunters than farmers, and there is more game hunting area than land claimed for agriculture, although that might just be bethesdas 'scaled down' approach to building worlds idk
skyrim used to raid HighRock for food during the time of Arena and even up to Morrowind but it stopped during Obilvion
I think a lot of the other "cities" were ignored by the developers, just given the bare minimum, while a few select ones got all the focus. Basically those involved in the Civil War, Solitude and Windhelm, second was Whiterun and Markarth. All others weren't given proper buildings or defenses.
I mean riften goes pretty hard though I remember two dragons attacked the city at the same time, they ended up dying in minutes. Riften don't play around
Morthal is just the netherlands. Ironically, Solitude with its commercial urban culture would be the capital of this netherlands. Hjaalmarch actually makes sense with its large waterways to have several large towns to supply and facilitate solitudes trade, like lumber, rare herbs and alchemical ingredients, food (fish farmings a cool idea). Its eastern and south eastern uplands make sense to be more wilderness and sparsely populated terrain aside from a few settlements, i imagine this to be like afghanistan.
my friend I love your stuff here
@@Stoneworks thanks man
In the map you made of how Skyrim would fall apart, I personally think the whiterun/falkreath combo would be the strongest. Good farmland, central position to trade with the others, and the trade route to cyrodil, which is easily defendable because of the mountain passes in falkreath.
Love to see Charlie make a surprise cameo in this memery.
You sound like that kid who learned curse words and said them the next day at school during lunch.
I've played several dozen skyrim playthroughs, of varying lengths, usually between 20 and 100 hours, although often longer. I've chosen the stormcloaks all times except once. I'm a huge simp for skyrim nationalist propoganda.
But recently I prepped for a DnD game I was running in Skyrim shortly after the events of the game. And in preparation, I learned the context of the Skyrim civil war within the larger context of the political situation of the continent. And now I realize the stormcloaks are totally misled and by winning the civil war, they only help the thalmor. And that's epic.
Can you elaborate on that last part?
@@alvintollah thalmor hate the empire. stormcloaks fighting a war against the empire weakens them both. if stormcloaks win, the thalmor have them both exactly where they want them. easy to overthrow the empire, even easier to take over skyrim after that
@@alvintollah The Thalmor outright released Ulfric as a ploy to generate instability within the Empire. The same ploy the German Empire used in WW1, shipping Lenin back to Russia to start a Revolution to destroy the Russian Empire they were fighting. They have some very incriminating dossiers in the Embassy behind Elenwen's desk. They consider the Stormcloaks to be an asset in their racial-nationalist campaign for the annihilation, or at the very least enslavement, of every human on Nirn.
@@dashiellgillingham4579 This is really one of those very-easy-to-miss things in the game. Especially considering it's in the Thalmer embassy, which cannot be re-entered once that mission ended. However, the peace treaty at Hrothgard has this one subtle interaction between Elenwen and Ulfric that shows that they had history.
@@yourehereforthatarentyou so skyrim is facked either way. Atleast the stormcloaks go out fighting for what they cherish and not for other people.
Also, the empire could just feck off from the province and work together with skyrim.
I'm going to stop you right there: every single river in Skyrim is broken up by waterfalls, cataracts, rocky rapids, shallow fords and permanent ice. No long distance riverine military or trade is going more than to the next village on, at best, in good summer weather. And even then not in big numbers. Only the near or on coast cities can do any boats at all outside lake fishing
He specifically said that we ignore the waterfalls and river problems in the beginning. Mostly since it's bullshit that ALL rivers have waterfalls for no reason.
@@BoldTint Eh, climates within or near the artic circle definitely have lots of trouble with ice and rocks in real life, and since most of Skyrim is mountainous you have the same rocky issue with being so close to the water sources. Can't really criticise something just because you want to ignore it. Think it's repetitive and dull? Sure that's valid actually, but the scenario isn't inherently that weird
Man you have got to do more of this kind of stuff.I am absolutely enthralled with this.Loved this vid and your geopolitics of skyrim video.
Subbed
Just discovered your channel and it’s pure chaos, I fucking love it!
This will be fun
EDIT: it was.
id really want to see this done for the ingame map of oblivion since it had weird things compared to the lore , like Leyawiin is supposed to be like an important south port and boat pass by it to reach the imperial city , but when you reach it theres no way a boat could pass there and also in the game intro we see boats going out and in of the imperial city lake yet ingame theres a bridge blocking any boat that would try to access that port
The bridge is super high and has huge hole for the boats. The boats will pass easily. Even cruise ships.
6:10 you’re not slick hiding those chipmunks in the mountains
In case you hadn't noticed: there used to be outposts everywhere on the plains and whiterun had great walls. It used to be a city of overlords. Then the Jarls made idiotic decisions.
you mean the Empire did
@@NiclasLoof Maybe but I Think it More down to Imperial Culture Assimilating in to Skyrim and Making Skyrim more Lade back and Lazy then Oblivion crisis hit and left them Weak
This video just confirms to me that there should be an Elder Scrolls strategy game
15:41 *Cuhlecain
has entered the Chat
Ps: In earlier lore it was said that he started from Falkreath but it has been rewritten to be somewhere in the colovian fields
I think the biggest problem when it comes to talking about realistic logistics in Elder Scrolls games is (if I'm not mistaken) that the in-game world space is significantly smaller than the canon size of the world, with the exception of Daggerfall and Arena. Tamriel, I believe, is about as big as the contiguous United States, maybe bigger, but I really love this video, well done!
These videos are always a huge treat for me, i love your elder scrolls content!
Word of the day: Schmeat
Used in a sentence: For a rock arch, this thing is thinner than my schmeat.
Winterhold has one positive and then another aspect I wish was explored more: Theres that road skirting the southern side of the mountains leading there by which there is a mine that is owned by Winterhold, and secondky that central valley just through Winterholds mountains to the Southwest that would be thee ideal place to stay in the region, but very little is written about nord settlers there.
I think Whiterun would be the best candidate for the title of capital, because it controls most of the food production in Skyrim. Heads of states moving the capital to a place from which they can control a greater food source is something which happened several times throughout our history.
Edit: Cool video by the way. It's nice to see a fellow strategy-enjoyer.
Not me thinking ‘hey, this guy is pretty funny, let’s see what other content he has” only to see I’m subbed. You did well, previous me.
Tamriel: Total War: the Skyrim Campaign would be a great thing!
That said, I believe the map of Skyrim we know is just a simplification. The "real" country would be a bit bigger, with more villages and farms. Villages, mines, forts and city outskirts would be more densely populated, roads must be patrolled. So, there would be more road traffic, food and metal production throughout the country. Many "bandit" leaders would be just local feudal lords making profit from road taxes, joining (and betraying) Jarls and High Kings in turn. The "realistic" or strategy-game approach to the civil war in Skyrim would include much mountain pass ambushes (Bulgars-vs.-Byzantines style) and pillaging. Maybe only Whiterun ought to have some real cavalry units. The Forsworn or Reachmen would be a problem for Nord Jarls of Markarth but a grimly enough led campaign could ensure the survival of the Nords in the West. Any Hold would be something of a loose confederacy between a city Jarl and small private armies based in forts, making money from mines and farms. Any High King or leader of a grouping of Holds should rule through sheer force of manpower, thus through a rough, partly barbaric system of tribute exacting from vassals, gifts of gold and weapons to his own armed retinue, a smaller, tough personal guard force and pillaging or threatening farther parts of the land. Peace would be almost impossible in the long run... but war would be only possible during summer (just like trade and agriculture). I'm thinking of early, pre-Viking, Vendel period Scandinavian petty kingdoms.
I would say there wouldn't be more settlements, just those which already exist would be much bigger. It's a hostile, tundra and permafrost filled land.
I don't know bro everyone seems to still like Skyrim my guy
"When I was in 5th grade", I started to freak out for a sec until I realized I was only in 6th grade when it came out. Holy shit Skyrim is old.
You fool, the Forsworn ARE the food!
- People of Markarth
I feel like whatever power would come out on top, I feel like the chances are good that they'll move the capital to Whiterun due to the reasons you stated, it's central location so it's easier to reach all parts of the kingdom, the plains are good for food and are also near whiterun so their easy to control and thus help keep control over the more food dependent parts of Skyrim(which are conveniently some of the most important trade and mines wise) and is all around just a good location.
I think the capital of skyrim would be whiterun. They have alot of towns, one of the largest cities, nearly all the food aswell as mines and lumber. Their position would make them an extremely wealthy trading hub. So with food their population would be bigger than rivals and combine that with the money from trade and a little industry they would be unstoppable. Windhelm and similar places would be sheep and goat farmers which is fine but would probably mean smaller population plus they would probably all be jockeying for whiterun's favour.
I hope skyrim stays together with the empire to resist the thalmor
Imagine: High King Balgruuf the greater.
2:27 Greece has and had a rocky landscape, but still managed to grow lots of food.
I’m skeptical of this claim that they grew lots of food, because they often had to engage in lots of trade and colonization to get more food. Maybe some places like Attica and certain valleys were more productive than others, but I’m skeptical of your claim that they grew lots of food
Me after the civil war quest line
“King dragon sends his regards”
‘Kills general tullius’
Last time I was this early the chixulub impactor didn't hit
"Bethesda, this video is my writing resumé to you"
Bethesda hasn't had an actual writer on staff since 2002 and I don't think they're looking
Something you overlooked is that Windhelm has a volcanic caldera to the south, which would not be good for crops iirc due to sulfer and hotsprings
Unable to trade along the river was in Oblivion as well. Sure the Imperial City has a harbor but the bridge across the river to the southeast prevents anything taller than a barge to pass, sails are right out. Not that it matters since Bravil doesn't have have harbor, just a tiny dock for rowboats (which admittedly could easily make it under the bridge). Further south the river gets very narrow and very shallow and flat out stops at Lewyadin. You can't pass to the ocean and the city has no harbor or even a rowboat dock. Naturally the Imperial City has two sailing ships in its harbor.
Obviously due to game limitations that kind of messed up the geography... of but the geography of the river going to the Imperial city but please keep in mind that lore wise it is very well able to send ships to and from the Imperial city out to the ocean including the fact that in the one quest were you go out on the ocean to fight the pirates.....
Well, Falkreath once conquered Cyrodiil under Cuhlecain, who was succeeded by Talos.
yup with an army of nords i would never piss of the Nord conidering they Founded the First Empire
You misspelled assassinated. Assassinated by Talos.
whiterun would be the centre for power of skyrim with a central position, large population and access to river trade from the snowy stormcloak place falkreath and riften
next most powerful city would be solitude as its status as a trade hub would give it the power to command and access to the west of skyrim.
“Throat of the World” with Simon getting the best throat.. amazing touch
13:13 as a swampland native, a dutchy so to say, swamp people can become pretty powerful, even in the shadow of powerful neighbors.
Whiterun's got somehow both the best and worst geography at the same time. It has all the economy but its best defense is the slight hill its built on
I gotta say, the info in the video is actually pretty interesting and you clearly put a lot of work into it
but what made you think you needed to shove a hundred sexual jokes and innovations into it? I don't remember you doing this in any of the others
Theres a difference between thinking you need to add something and just simply wanting to add something
Bro, if you aren't here for sexual innovations, Idk what you're doing on this channel
@@PhyreI3ird His content didn't have this type of "humor" in it before when this was posted, at least in none of the videos I had watched, and I'm pretty sure I had binge watched all of his stuff at that point. Anyway, I unsubbed after it and I guess you didn't see the date of my post, but your comment makes me assume it got worse, so that's a shame.
Love the Daggerfall snow day theme at the start.
"I don't think Falkreath would be able to conquer the other holds"
Tiber septim : proceeds to conquer Tamriel
4:24 mountains are a no for defenses. If someone manages to create an avalanche or rockfall? Bubye Markarth
8:05 yo, the nords are crazy af, they grow crops in the snow. Don't ask me how, but there's a ton of farms there
Well if Nords have frost resistance as a racial trait, who can say that the plants don't too.
@@KaosFireMaker I think there's a point in the game that a woman says "you can plant in the snow, but only Nords got the patience", something like that.
1:02 "solitude is the real capital" Ulfric Stormcloak has left the chat*
I used to love going on trade and travel routes from falkreath to about the south forest's edge just before you get to the bonestrewn crest, there's a large area of forest that goes high up into the mountain side there, i had a mod at the time which built a massive Nordic Lodge to be hidden there, with a balcony view that let you see Windhelm from up there. it had everything for player convenience but gameplay aside, i'll never forget the view.
Given its centralized location, economic independence (food, baby!), and ability to project military power, I would say that Whiterun is perfectly positioned to be the kingmakers of Skyrim's warring states period. I don't see them having the potential to go all Mongol on the province and take it all themselves, but given their diplomatic nature and ability to cut off different regions (either at mountain passes or river crossings), whomever was able to get Whiterun as an ally would be unstoppable. Honestly, it really doesn't matter which of the holds were to do it, as they all have some strength that would augment the cavalry hordes. Any of the coastal cities makes sense as a natural ally for Whiterun, from a synergy standpoint, because they're all able to withstand a siege if Whiterun ever decided it didn't like being the junior partner.
So early, that yo mama aint even come yet lmao
Not that you could make her lmao.
@@Barquevious_Jackson Yah she so fat I can't see where the hole at
Joe Mama Ligma Balls
I've see enough to deduce that this man is gay! Or at the very least bi-curious!
That’s crazy I was just thinking about like the regions of the holds and this pops up
Stoneworks has done enough Skyrim world building videos for a Skyrim Book Report
Thesis: Dragons are bitchass and I could fight every high elf in real life.
Solitude, Markarth, Winterhold, and Windhelm are all weak, all is takes is a good pebble on those mountains, and bye bye to those 4 cities