"Both your illusory self and your accurate-image self are worthless." Have a nice day. Lol. Joking aside, thanks so much for this video! Ken explains (at least to me) how a person should first strive to become functional in our society, and then strive to become one with the True Self.
Hurray Ken Wilber. Truly a star from the sky, giving his whole life to helping humans grow in consciousness. It's painful, but he shows its sublime value, joy & the urgency of this call.
It must be remarkable for him to see the explosion in the various modalities of spiritual growth recently, from innovations in psychotherapy to the psychedelic resurgence to neurostimulation and how all these can be combined to produce a mass level of wellness the world has never known. And he a role in making all this happen.
This is really good. I have been so upset and even angry because I can see there is a big problem with our conditioning. I have been rejecting both of these approaches. Now I see why. I am still very angry about this loss we have even after a million years of trying to figure this out. This conditioning has made me feel nuts. All people are reacting to these conditionings. All actions fall into this problem. It’s so sad. Please help all of us to finally together move past this.
First time I understand Ken Wilbur. I struggled with his material and was totally intimidated by it and therefore gave up. In this presentation, to me, he is crystal clear. So much appreciate that. Thank you Ken and tank you Soundstrue!! So clear... I so much appreciate it!!
Than you Ken for this very useful insight and caution. Thankfully Adi Da's teachings do address, in detail, these three "selves" and also has established the inherently non dual process that transcends (without dissociation) the limits and liabilities of east/west or differing views that do not address the whole prior unity. ❤
I was just thinking that meditation 🧘♂️ makes psychotherapy redundant but this explains why there are recurrent scandals at Bhuddist schools like in all other institutions, religious or otherwise.
There is a sweet spot when the two can marry - then psychotherapy becomes aligned with spirit s truth as presenting itself in the moment , rooted in the humility of the human form
Centering Prayer is a gentle form of (objectless) meditation that incorporates the purification of the unconscious that rise up during the 20 mins or so while meditating. Even though awareness without an object is where we want to be, the attitude towards the thoughts that rise up are met with a welcoming attitude but are then released, not engaged in. To my point, there is a strong component in centering prayer of a psychoanalytical healing process embedded in this practice. For you all interested, check out Thomas Keating, Bourgeault of Contemplative Outreach. It will give you another perspective on the supposed 3 selves that Wilber mentions
With all due respect to Mr. Wilber I think that the last statement in this video is inaccurate. There are paths that are unknown to our culture because the conditions in this culture make it impossible to "import" them. These paths contain and work with all 3 selves, it is just not codified in English. The total work can be demanding, difficult,, "unpopular" ,not an easy sell and certainly not very entertaining. Work with the "true self" is not only done with meditation and self inquiry but is included in satsang, community gatherings and sacred rituals. Work with the perfected ego is done through cultivating excellence in ones's work in the world and adab (politeness), dharma, yamas and niyamas. Working with the persona is done through the "healing" ( or wholeness) practices of a particular path or way. Saying that this particular summit is the only one to incorporate these 3 aspects of the human evolution IMHO is the falsity that arises from having to "sell" spirituality. Selling spirituality seems to be inevitably necessary in this culture. It may be spiritually glamorous, holy and alluring, full of light and presence, while there is a corrosive effect at the subtlest of levels. And because individuals and organizations just a few steps ahead of the masses in their experience are capitalizing on spiritual products and presence, very few in this culture dare to notice the corrosive effect. After all the perfected egos must pay the mortgages, the rent, our kids educations.
Yes. The 3 that I have experience with are sufism, taoism and dzogen. I am not speaking of the popular reading of books and discussion groups but small group gatherings over decades. My teachers kept the groups small and out of the limelight.
@@theunspeakable24 I know plenty of Dzogchen, Sufi, and Taoist practitioners. The sangha is available to all. The one's that are exclusive are what we refer to as "cults" with their feigned superiority and delusion.
@@IAn0nI I think that you are missing my point. I did not comment to argue. This is not about exclusivity. It is about small groups pf people doing all three levels of disciplined transformative work and it is not for sale. I agree with you that there are many many groups available to everyone right now. How many of those groups have completely realized teachers on all 3 planes that Ken Wilber was referring to and the disciplined and consistently engaged students are doing the complete work of a complete path? They exist. They cannot be brought and advertised and don't translate into a capitalist mindset and free market value system.
There is an elephant in the room that KW never speaks about, here, or elsewhere, when attempting to explain the “bad behavior” of spiritual teachers. The position Wilber takes is true, if it is true at all, only when consciousness is and remains identified with a conditional body-mind-self, a persona or ego in his terms. The elephant in the room is Wilber continuously fails to distinguish stable, unconditional, transpersonal awakenings from unstable, conditional, transpersonal awakenings. He fails to distinguish satori from kensho. He fails to distinguish unstable, conditional nirvikalpa samadhi from stable, unconditional sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. This distinction must be absolutely clear, or Wilber’s theory will not hold even as theory. How exactly can there be “enlightened neurotics” if “enlightened” means sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? He says, “essentially every person on the planet is broken compared to what they could be”. Very well could be true, if there is essentially no person on the planet who has experienced any stable, abiding “unconditional realization”, that is who has transcended “person”. For Wilber, there are no “unborn” here.
There is no such thing as a permanent Self. We tend to jump from one self to another. For example when anger arises, “I am Angry!” Similarly “I can be sad or happy”. This kind of Self is triggered by situations. Another kind of self is when you develop self awareness that allows you to see that your body is not the Self; so are your thoughts. This kind of self is also not permanent though it helps one to freedom from suffering arising out of painful physical or emotional feelings. The third kind of self is when one is in the rhythm with the present process like playing music or exercising without having the feeling of a self present. Unless you experience it yourself don’t believe in what others say. The mind can create wonders but they are all false!
There absolutely is a permanent Self. And it's YOU! You are always the same, it's just your surroundings, thougths, emotions and body that change. But your point of origin (You) is always present.
Our human DNA self/avatar... healthy vs not And then there's a tiny part of our higher self that is witnessing and experiencing this life. We find this via nde, pre-borth memories, or most common, meditation. Am I close?
i think if there was one in the so called "conventional" school who crossed over a bit into the spirit, it was Jung but not to the extent that Ken is talking about.
The ancient Hawaiian's taught a 3 selves model. It's just that they didn't bother handing it to Westerners because even if we could kinda wrap our minds around it, we would have just distorted it into our stage of conscious evolution and it wasn't worth their time. (Nor their lives as we were kinda being puritanical repressive pooheads to them at one point, and then the whole industrialization/militarization cultural invasion thing). Fortunately, in recent decades the silence has slowly been broken. And those ready to for the material are allowed to receive it. And though it has not yet permeated the oneness nondual enlightenment communities, it is becoming included in the neurolinguistic and psychology communities. Also, the energy communities are blending with the psychology communities. Reiki in its pure intention was an enlightenment process. And LMHC's are now becoming dual trained in energy healing lineages, including Reiki, and guiding folks through "all 3 selves" Ken describes. I do not know how to fix 1,000 year engrained traditions as they are, as Ken points out, not particularly open to new information en mass. But I do very much know that far more paths are available now.
I would disagree with Ken here. My teacher, Chagdud Rinpoche, spoke to the importance of a healthy ego in attaining enlightenment. His approach was completely traditional, in the nyingma tradition. As well, it is true that meditation does not deal with the shadows issues, but only up to a point. In my understanding of my tradition, after a certain point of awakening, all of the dualistic karma, subtle and corse obscuration and their habitual tendencies (including shadow elements and so forth) are liberated into the awakened state. From my understanding of my tradition, ken is describing someone who has had some realization, but has not attained a complete state of enlightenment, in which all course and subtle dualistic tendencies are integrated in realization of the wisdom nature - someone on the bodhisattva levels who has not progressed the levels of awakening fully. At the highest levels of awakening, there is no basis for karma, such as un-integrated harmful shadow elements. However, the difficulty of accomplishing awakening to this degree in my tradition is also emphasized.
Nothing like challenging someone who has been at this for 40 years! Did you not learn modesty in all of your studies? You don’t have to accept any of these teachings! I am sure any great Master from Ram Dass to J Jrishnamurti would agree!
And Wilber again makes the mistake he always makes when speaking about the Eastern Contemplative Traditions, by saying they miss / are not aware of this or that. People swallow it because they are not familiar with the traditional conceptual frameworks and their practices…. For example the Mahayana Path most definitely includes moving through stages not just states. In this interview again he says they don’t differentiate between healthy and unhealthy ego. Which is nonsense, we find this perfectly acknowledged in for example the Mahayana teachings or the “distorted relative and the correct relative and the Absolute and also in the Three Natures (imputed, dependent and truly existent) of Chittamatra. So no the claim is not true
And yes they are very different conceptual frameworks but understanding them from a practice / experiential perspective, specially the distorted and corrected relative in how they impact the perception of self and the world, correlate perfectly with the idea of the persona bd the healthy ego 😊
Thank you Ken!
"Both your illusory self and your accurate-image self are worthless." Have a nice day. Lol.
Joking aside, thanks so much for this video! Ken explains (at least to me) how a person should first strive to become functional in our society, and then strive to become one with the True Self.
Hurray Ken Wilber. Truly a star from the sky, giving his whole life to helping humans grow in consciousness. It's painful, but he shows its sublime value, joy & the urgency of this call.
More Ken!!!❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
More ken more ken more ken
you're the voice! 😊 the voice at the start of all of my Sounds True audios and videos. nice to see you finally. 👋
Thank you for posting this presentation by Ken Wilber...one the most important philosophers of the last 50 years.
It must be remarkable for him to see the explosion in the various modalities of spiritual growth recently, from innovations in psychotherapy to the psychedelic resurgence to neurostimulation and how all these can be combined to produce a mass level of wellness the world has never known. And he a role in making all this happen.
This is really good. I have been so upset and even angry because I can see there is a big problem with our conditioning. I have been rejecting both of these approaches. Now I see why. I am still very angry about this loss we have even after a million years of trying to figure this out.
This conditioning has made me feel nuts.
All people are reacting to these conditionings. All actions fall into this problem. It’s so sad. Please help all of us to finally together move past this.
The Ken + Tami dialogs are by far my favorite material from Sounds True. Thank you for this.
First time I understand Ken Wilbur. I struggled with his material and was totally intimidated by it and therefore gave up. In this presentation, to me, he is crystal clear. So much appreciate that. Thank you Ken and tank you Soundstrue!! So clear... I so much appreciate it!!
Than you Ken for this very useful insight and caution. Thankfully Adi Da's teachings do address, in detail, these three "selves" and also has established the inherently non dual process that transcends (without dissociation) the limits and liabilities of east/west or differing views that do not address the whole prior unity. ❤
No wonder he is honored by so many people.
An elucidating talk on ego .
I get you Ken. I very much understand your teaching here today.
Your original Wilber interview is such a gift for the world.
Good God Ken, thank you for being here ❤😊🫶🏻🙏 namaste
I was just thinking that meditation 🧘♂️ makes psychotherapy redundant but this explains why there are recurrent scandals at Bhuddist schools like in all other institutions, religious or otherwise.
There is a sweet spot when the two can marry - then psychotherapy becomes aligned with spirit s truth as presenting itself in the moment , rooted in the humility of the human form
Excellent synopsis of his writings on consciousness!!
Thank you!
Wow what a lecture
Psychosynthesis depth psychology deals both with personal, ego and spiritual Self 😊
A very enlightening presentation 👍🙏🏻
Absolutely exactly thank you!
Centering Prayer is a gentle form of (objectless) meditation that incorporates the purification of the unconscious that rise up during the 20 mins or so while meditating. Even though awareness without an object is where we want to be, the attitude towards the thoughts that rise up are met with a welcoming attitude but are then released, not engaged in. To my point, there is a strong component in centering prayer of a psychoanalytical healing process embedded in this practice. For you all interested, check out Thomas Keating, Bourgeault of Contemplative Outreach. It will give you another perspective on the supposed 3 selves that Wilber mentions
This is so good. Thank you so much for this!
Someone please give this to every therapist I worked with before meeting George Laws 😂paleaseeeeeee for the benefit of all
With all due respect to Mr. Wilber I think that the last statement in this video is inaccurate. There are paths that are unknown to our culture because the conditions in this culture make it impossible to "import" them. These paths contain and work with all 3 selves, it is just not codified in English. The total work can be demanding, difficult,, "unpopular" ,not an easy sell and certainly not very entertaining.
Work with the "true self" is not only done with meditation and self inquiry but is included in satsang, community gatherings and sacred rituals. Work with the perfected ego is done through cultivating excellence in ones's work in the world and adab (politeness), dharma, yamas and niyamas. Working with the persona is done through the "healing" ( or wholeness) practices of a particular path or way. Saying that this particular summit is the only one to incorporate these 3 aspects of the human evolution IMHO is the falsity that arises from having to "sell" spirituality. Selling spirituality seems to be inevitably necessary in this culture. It may be spiritually glamorous, holy and alluring, full of light and presence, while there is a corrosive effect at the subtlest of levels. And because individuals and organizations just a few steps ahead of the masses in their experience are capitalizing on spiritual products and presence, very few in this culture dare to notice the corrosive effect. After all the perfected egos must pay the mortgages, the rent, our kids educations.
Can you provide some examples of such paths you are referring to?
Yes. The 3 that I have experience with are sufism, taoism and dzogen. I am not speaking of the popular reading of books and discussion groups but small group gatherings over decades. My teachers kept the groups small and out of the limelight.
@@theunspeakable24 I know plenty of Dzogchen, Sufi, and Taoist practitioners. The sangha is available to all. The one's that are exclusive are what we refer to as "cults" with their feigned superiority and delusion.
@@IAn0nI I think that you are missing my point. I did not comment to argue. This is not about exclusivity. It is about small groups pf people doing all three levels of disciplined transformative work and it is not for sale. I agree with you that there are many many groups available to everyone right now. How many of those groups have completely realized teachers on all 3 planes that Ken Wilber was referring to and the disciplined and consistently engaged students are doing the complete work of a complete path? They exist. They cannot be brought and advertised and don't translate into a capitalist mindset and free market value system.
@@theunspeakable24 I'm not missing your point.
There is an elephant in the room that KW never speaks about, here, or elsewhere, when attempting to explain the “bad behavior” of spiritual teachers. The position Wilber takes is true, if it is true at all, only when consciousness is and remains identified with a conditional body-mind-self, a persona or ego in his terms.
The elephant in the room is Wilber continuously fails to distinguish stable, unconditional, transpersonal awakenings from unstable, conditional, transpersonal awakenings. He fails to distinguish satori from kensho. He fails to distinguish unstable, conditional nirvikalpa samadhi from stable, unconditional sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.
This distinction must be absolutely clear, or Wilber’s theory will not hold even as theory. How exactly can there be “enlightened neurotics” if “enlightened” means sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? He says, “essentially every person on the planet is broken compared to what they could be”. Very well could be true, if there is essentially no person on the planet who has experienced any stable, abiding “unconditional realization”, that is who has transcended “person”. For Wilber, there are no “unborn” here.
There is no such thing as a permanent Self. We tend to jump from one self to another. For example when anger arises, “I am Angry!”
Similarly “I can be sad or happy”. This kind of Self is triggered by situations. Another kind of self is when you develop self awareness that allows you to see that your body is not the Self; so are your thoughts. This kind of self is also not permanent though it helps one to freedom from suffering arising out of painful physical or emotional feelings. The third kind of self is when one is in the rhythm with the present process like playing music or exercising without having the feeling of a self present.
Unless you experience it yourself don’t believe in what others say. The mind can create wonders but they are all false!
There absolutely is a permanent Self. And it's YOU! You are always the same, it's just your surroundings, thougths, emotions and body that change. But your point of origin (You) is always present.
Our human DNA self/avatar... healthy vs not
And then there's a tiny part of our higher self that is witnessing and experiencing this life. We find this via nde, pre-borth memories, or most common, meditation.
Am I close?
Does Ken Wilber know about or if he does, comment and give his input on Centering Prayer
Jungian psychotherapy does not cover this approach ? It deals with ego, shadow, persona and Self.
"From iron chains to gold chains", from illusion to another illusion, so clearly exposed.
i think if there was one in the so called "conventional" school who crossed over a bit into the spirit, it was Jung but not to the extent that Ken is talking about.
AQAL ❤
Is there more to this talk?
You can access the full summit here!
bit.ly/3msk5U6
@@SoundstrueManyVoices $400 dollars! Your nuts)) no thank you. You can have these talks)
doesn't Jung's Individuation = the divine self? I see A jungian analyst and he's very open to this.
He’s got Yoda’s voice, and content
"Sirituality?" Typo on the intro animation!
Also, wonderful video, thank you!
2/3 ain/t bad
This man sounds like Yoda
The ancient Hawaiian's taught a 3 selves model. It's just that they didn't bother handing it to Westerners because even if we could kinda wrap our minds around it, we would have just distorted it into our stage of conscious evolution and it wasn't worth their time. (Nor their lives as we were kinda being puritanical repressive pooheads to them at one point, and then the whole industrialization/militarization cultural invasion thing).
Fortunately, in recent decades the silence has slowly been broken. And those ready to for the material are allowed to receive it.
And though it has not yet permeated the oneness nondual enlightenment communities, it is becoming included in the neurolinguistic and psychology communities.
Also, the energy communities are blending with the psychology communities. Reiki in its pure intention was an enlightenment process. And LMHC's are now becoming dual trained in energy healing lineages, including Reiki, and guiding folks through "all 3 selves" Ken describes.
I do not know how to fix 1,000 year engrained traditions as they are, as Ken points out, not particularly open to new information en mass. But I do very much know that far more paths are available now.
I would disagree with Ken here. My teacher, Chagdud Rinpoche, spoke to the importance of a healthy ego in attaining enlightenment. His approach was completely traditional, in the nyingma tradition. As well, it is true that meditation does not deal with the shadows issues, but only up to a point. In my understanding of my tradition, after a certain point of awakening, all of the dualistic karma, subtle and corse obscuration and their habitual tendencies (including shadow elements and so forth) are liberated into the awakened state. From my understanding of my tradition, ken is describing someone who has had some realization, but has not attained a complete state of enlightenment, in which all course and subtle dualistic tendencies are integrated in realization of the wisdom nature - someone on the bodhisattva levels who has not progressed the levels of awakening fully. At the highest levels of awakening, there is no basis for karma, such as un-integrated harmful shadow elements. However, the difficulty of accomplishing awakening to this degree in my tradition is also emphasized.
$297 for the whole course… I love Ken Wilber a lot but… thanks but no thanks. But thanks for this video
👀
Nothing like challenging someone who has been at this for 40 years! Did you not learn modesty in all of your studies? You don’t have to accept any of these teachings! I am sure any great Master from Ram Dass to J Jrishnamurti would agree!
That’s some teaser…
And Wilber again makes the mistake he always makes when speaking about the Eastern Contemplative Traditions, by saying they miss / are not aware of this or that.
People swallow it because they are not familiar with the traditional conceptual frameworks and their practices…. For example the Mahayana Path most definitely includes moving through stages not just states.
In this interview again he says they don’t differentiate between healthy and unhealthy ego.
Which is nonsense, we find this perfectly acknowledged in for example the Mahayana teachings or the “distorted relative and the correct relative and the Absolute and also in the Three Natures (imputed, dependent and truly existent) of Chittamatra.
So no the claim is not true
And yes they are very different conceptual frameworks but understanding them from a practice / experiential perspective, specially the distorted and corrected relative in how they impact the perception of self and the world, correlate perfectly with the idea of the persona bd the healthy ego 😊
@@MagoMenla-ne8hb But did they develop into pluralistic stages? Or is he maybe saying that Mahayana just doesn't put it in Western terms?
Yet he wears a wig now. Get your teachings from Jesus Christ.
lolwat