Convex, Full Flat, or Flat Grind for the win? Let's put these Knife Grinds to the Food Release Test!
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2024
- Hello my fellow Chef Knives Enthusiasts!
In this video we're diving into the world of knife geometry and its impact on the food release of a knife. The cross sectional geometry is very important for the cutting feel and performance of a knife. It might even outshine the steel and heat treatment.
We've handpicked a bunch of blades from our Meesterslijpers inventory, each with a distinct cross-section geometry and grind, to discover which one reigns supreme in the food-release arena.
Before you swipe that credit card for a new knife, remember to check its thickness at the spine and its geometry. The grind of a knife can spill the beans on its performance before you even slice a tomato.
There are more grinds than there are ways to julienne a carrot,
but we've narrowed it down to three grinds that we see most in our inventory:
Full Flat Grind
Flat Grind
and Convex Grind.
Let’s see which of these three grinds will give you the best food release on a
knife, shall we? Enjoy the video!
Highly informative. Appreciate you taking the time to demonstrate these different grinds. Many thanks.
My pleasure, thank you for watching!
"letting go sometimes is the only thing to hold on to." gold
That's amazing, thanks for catching that one! 👌🏽🙏🏾
I switched to making mostly only convex grind years ago. Never looked back. Great video.
Thank you. Did you ever make a C-grind, S-Grind, or Walkschliff grind? They should do good too when it comes to food release. And is it true that knife makers call a convex grind the 'lazy grind', because it is apparently easy and fast to do on a slack beltgrinder?
I have done an s-grind before, but I typically stick with convex because I lean toward stone polishing more often than not.
The way a lot of western makers make convex grinds is by leaving the edge thick on a full flat grind and then convexing that edge thickness down to zero or close to it with their grinders. Most of these guys are doing full flat from spine to edge and it gets almost infinitely more slower to maintain that constant full flat down to a zero edge thickness, so the round off the edge basically, by torqueing their wrists as they grind. Yes. That's super lazy.
When I make convex grinds on say a honyaki, it will be more of a double bevel hamaguri grind, which is more methodically shaped from a shinogi or faux shinogi down to the edge. This typically takes stone work to further perfect and not look like junk.
With wide bevels, it's nearly similar but a little more flat to make refinishing on bench stones easier, with a gentle convex going to the edge.
I can't imagine doing a proper convex grind similar to what you see in high end honyaki as being easier or lazy.
Great video!!!
This vid was one of best vids u ever made🫡
Very good pictures ,u can actually see how stuff stick/ cut. Love ur vids ,best knife content to me on yt easily.
More educational videos we need. Thank u for this ,super steezy shirt bro!
That's amazing, thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated!
What great video. An absolute endorsement for the convex grind 🙌👌🏻
Thanks for the kind words. I forgot to mention that a convex grind alone is not a guarantee for great food release. The thickness of the blade in combination with a convex grind is where the magic happens. A laser knife with convex grind would still suffer a lot of sticktion. So it's about the right thickness + convex, which sweetspot the JNS Kaeru clearly hits.
@@chefknivesenthusiast I 100% agree. Finding that perfect combination of convexity, thickness/thinness, and sharpness that doesn't tear or wedge and results in great food release is what makes a dream kitchen knife.
I have a Denka nakiri that has been with me to work for a year and I’m just about ready to thin it down now. I’m trying to preserve its clamshell grind so I’ve been practicing it on a beater. I find that the clamshell is best with knives that are incredibly thin to protect their edge. The Denka already happened to have one out of the box, and I think the reason is because the 65 HRC makes it so brittle. If this little project of mine works out, I think I’ll try it on some of my other thin knives.
Hi Kim, that makes two of us. I am really happy with the convex grind/thickness ratio on my Denka. I wouldn't thin it myself, unless it really needs it after many times of use and sharpening. The food release and stiction issue is a combination of the convex/clamshell grind and the sweet spot when it comes to thickness/thinness of a blade. A super thin laser type of knife with a convex grind (which in that case would be a marginal convex grind in the first place) woulds most likely still suffer from a lot of stiction. But indeed, making a super thin knife a little bit convex does make it a little bit less fragile. You can also put a micro bevel on the cutting edge to protect it. Have fun with your clamshell thinning project, hope it will give you the desired results!
The folks at @districtcutlery in DC thinned my 240 Denka BEAUTIFULLY. I enjoy sharpening, but I was GLAD to hire them on that one.
Great video about food release on three different grinds (full flat, flat, and convex grinds) and also perfect for choosing four different vegetables (Carrot, Cucumber, Sweet Potato, and Tomato).
Food release depends on grind type, blade thickness, and blade height. Convex grind, minimum blade thickness (above the heel) 3.5-4 mm, and minimum blade height 48-50 mm.
To reduce stiction, add a tsuchime finish to the top of the blade and brushed vertical lines to the bottom of the blade.
Have you tried a Wakui Shirogami #2 Tsuchime Gyuto? It seems to be a functional knife.
A Convex grind and the right thickness/thinness seems to be where the food release magic happens. So I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph.
I'm not completely convinced about the effect of a Tsuchime finish (on itself) when it comes to food release, but I might do a video with a bunch of knives with a Tsuchime finish to see if there are Tsuchime blades that have great food release.
I can imagine that in combination with the right thickness/thinness on a blade and a Convex grind, a Tsuchime finish could be an extra aid for good food release as well. But I don't expect a Laser thin, Full Flat grind blade with a Tsuchime finish to do well in regard of food release.
I have a knife from almost every maker and series of knives that JNS sells (Shuji Toyama, Kenichi Wada, Shigefusa, Kiyoshi Kato, Yoshikazu Tanaka). A Wakui and Munetoshi are the only ones I miss in my collection. I was very tempted to get me a Wakui workhorse knife, but didn't pull the trigger yet. I think I will wait until I visit JNS in Denmark again next year.
I did have a Wakui 270mm Gyuto workhorse in my hands the last time I visited JNS. It's a hefty beast. It looked like it has just the right thickness and convex grind. It was really tempting, but I was already taking two other knives home with me.
@@chefknivesenthusiast Yes, the right thickness for food release without wedging when cutting dense vegetables (such as carrots and sweet potatoes) is around 3.5-4 mm above the heel.
IMO food release and less food stiction are different terminology.
I think Wakui Tsuchime Gyuto is a simple and functional knife, you should review it later.
Great video, brother! Very informative. If you ever revisit this topic, I would love to see you throw in a classic asymmetrical gyuto like a Misono or Masahiro or Kikuichi. Nearly full flat on the left side for guidance and penetration, and notably convex on the right side for food release. Add on a perfect 80/20 edge and you get near single bevel cutting performance with great release in an easy to maintain package.
I'd love to throw in one of those! I think someone else mentioned this to me as well. Next time I'm dealing with this topic I want to see a Hollow grind, C-grind, S-Grind and Walkschliff grind in action. Plus one of the classic assymetrical Gyuto you mentioned. Great suggestion!
@@chefknivesenthusiast sounds like a perfect round 2!
That wooden placard is amazing.
Handmade by a craftsman in Bali. 🙏🏾
The best is single bevel with a convex grind for food release like in the picture in the video
Facts. But we're not talking about that one in this video.
@@chefknivesenthusiast 😮 you’re right i liked the picture so much in your video it’s exactly my favourite bevel-model. For me it’s convex when I have to choose the best one for food release in your video.
Can confidently say that the Takamura R2 is convex grind. I own one and I've reached the point where I had to thin it and noticed that the grind wasn't flat as the stone wouldn't hit the bevel flush and it had a slight curve
I will have to check again. If you're right, it is a good example that a convex grind on a thinner blade does not have good food release and does have a lot of anoying stiction. Because the two thicker blades with a convex grind have amazing food release and hardly any stiction.
@@chefknivesenthusiast agree. The convexity is so shallow that it has little to no effect
@@sacoto98Convexity on fine blades is not enough for food release but it lowers food adhesion. This subtle convex makes a huge difference when cutting potatoes. Real Full Flat grind gets glued on potato, I just hate it.
I think for a good geometry design there is a balance. You either optimize for food release and accept some extra shoulder resistance or you optimize for shoulder resistance and accept food will not fall off.
Both are good options as long as you don't hyper focus on one mechanism and forget there is another that also needs to be addressed.
An awesome video, which is fun to watch with a lot of educational elements and food for thought. Much appreciate your time and contribution to the knife community. I applaud you! Just a thought. Have you tested different bevel polish finishes to see if a different finish makes a difference in food release? Something like 1K vs 6K synth finish vs your lovely Uchi finish? Does it make any difference at all or is it just an eye candy? What do you think?
I think the difference in finishes on a blade will be marginal. I can imagine that a super smooth and highly mirror polished Yanagiba will slice through a raw piece of fish with the least resistance. I think different types of polishes are just for looks...but I might be wrong.
Best would be flat grind on holding side and convex bevel on food release side? If right-handed the left side would be flat and the right side would be convex, correct? I liked and subscribed, nice content!
What you describe sounds a lot like a Single Bevel knife (minus the Urasuki/Uraoshi) with a Hamaguri grind. It also sounds like a C-grind.
I think in general, a flat bevel or side on a blade is terrible for food release. Anything gets sucked on to a flat surface. That's why convexity with the right thickness/thinness is the way to go.
Now I know why you recommend the Kaeru 😎
It doesn't seem very thin, but does it really matter ?
Aren't most "good" knives slightly convex and/or s-grind, even though it's not specified ?
The Kaeru has that sweet spot when it comes to thickness/thinness, in combination with a convex grind. Too thick and it will wedge through the harder stuff. Too thin and it will get stiction. The proof is in the pudding.
It all depends on the tasks at hand in the kitchen. A convex/s-grind knife can be great for one task, but might suffer a bit with other tasks.
@@chefknivesenthusiast Well Mister I have to apologize because I didn't follow your advice (Kaeru), I instead got a Shiro Kamo 23 cm Gyuto in SG2, the one with the damas cladding ✨
Pretty hyped about the knife, even though it wasn't that sharp for various reasons (I can elaborate on this), but still it falls through onions pretty nicely... After a full reprofiling of the edge it will be great for sure !
Some people have said that the damas can become grippy, time will tell, at the moment it's really not a problem...
@@HellGatefr2 No need to apologize. Shiro Kamo knives are excellent starter knives as well. Good bang for your buck. Enjoy!
That Homura Guren is one sexy knife.
I must admit that I was not drawn to them at first glance. But after using the Gyuto and Nakiri a few times, my opinion has changed. They are very well made knives by Itsuo Doi and have a fantastic work horse grind. And when a knife performs, it instantly becomes sexy as well.
The black nashiji finish with the k tip looks wicked to me. This video was informative to me and I will be mindful of it when I eventually buy some steel and make some knives.
Hold on a second!
This particular knife Takamura Sg2 Migaki has a full subtile convex grind! Eventhough yeah, it's a laser type, not so much for food release, but performance oriented.
Damascus type of knives will also increase food friction. I hate them. I sold my new Shigeki Tanaka 240mm because of this after fiew weeks 😟
Fujiwara Nashiji type of knife, is an extreme convex bevel which helps with food release, but almost splits the product, and reduces cutting performance. It acts exactly like a 100euro Tojiro
Conclusion, no such thing as perfect knife.
It comes down to personal preference, food release oriented (thick, convex) with reduced cutting performance, or Thin full V or subtile full convex for cutting performance, but less food release.
Especially agree with your conclusion.
I use a 1x30 belt sander with a platen so I believe that creates a full flat grind bevel. How would you create a flat grind bevel/scandi/hallow/S grind?
I'm not a knife maker, so I'm not sure about how they exactly create certain grinds. But I think a hollow grind is done on a huge, vertical rotating stone (I think it is called a Kaiten Mizu Toishi). Then you have the Hikoki (horizontal rotating whetstone).You have belt grinders. But you should ask this question to a seasoned knife maker. I'm just a knife enthusiast.
Just to understand the ratings: 100% would be all slices of all food items falling right off, and 50 % would be every second slice? Also, what did you do with all the cut food? Hope, you didn't just throw it all away. Thanks for the answers.
I used 4 ingredients per knife, each worth 25%. Other than that, I pulled the numbers out of my behind. But they are pretty accurate I think. I could have ranked them from number best to worst. Anyway, I think the footage speaks for itself basically.
All cut ingredients became a happy soup.
Is that JNS knife one of the SLD core knives? I'm intrigued by the results and I'm thinking a couple of convex knives might be good to have. I have a Fujiwara nakiri but I've never really taken notice of the food release. I'll have to test it out. Do you know of any existing list for makers and the grinds of their knives? That would be a really helpful thing if it were out there.
Yes, that is the JNS Kaeru Kasumi SLD semi-stainless steel. What I failed to convey in this video, is that it is not just about a convex grind. A super thin knife with convex grind will still be very sticky as a too thick knife with a convex grind will be wedging. This knife seems to hit the sweet spot of the right "thickness + convex grind =- superior food release".
I also have a TF Denka Nakiri and its food release is very decent and it's not that sticky.
I wish there was such a list in existence. I for one did not came across it. Let me know if you do.
@@chefknivesenthusiast, that makes sense. The thinner the blade, the less material to create enough of a convex protrusion to encourage release. I'm going to have to pick up one of those knives.
I've never seen such a list. Maybe it could be a group project in the Japanese Made Knives group. I'll bring it up in a post but you'll have to unblock me to participate (I really thought we'd put the disagreement behind us).
@JimCaputoMusic Go for it!
It might be difficult to make such a list because a maker might not finish all his knives with the same grind. For example. I have seen lots of Nigara knives with a hollow grind, but also many with a Flat grind and convex grind.
@@chefknivesenthusiast, I started but I get what you're saying. It might have to get super specific and have plenty of asterisks. Also, I'm going to order a JNS Kaeru Kasumi SLD Gyuto 21 cm from Meesterslijpers. Is there a way to give you credit for the sale? I don't know if that's a thing there but I figured I'd ask.
@JimCaputoMusic No need for credits. You could add "say hi to Hendrawanto for me" if there is an option to do so. But the guys at Meesterslijpers know my worth. 🙏🏾
I'm pretty sure you're going to enjoy the Kaeru. It's a banger!
Was that the factory bevel from Fujiwara San? My Denka had such a convex grind on it I couldn’t halve an apple or and onion without putting dangerous amount of force behind it, let alone a carrot, sweet potato, squash etc.
I needed to get it thinned to mostly a flat grind to even make it usable for anything beyond 1/2” tall.
Why the focus on food release? I’d rather have effortless laser like strokes than care that much about food release
To you and most most home cooks, food release is not a big issue. If you cut one 🥕 , it is no problem. Imagine you have to cut 100 🥕. It sticking to your blade all the time becomes very annoying and takes you completely out of your workflow. For you, good food release might not be important. To others, it's paramount.
The Fujiwara came straight out of the box. He's infamous for his inconsistent fit & finish. His steel is great though!
@@chefknivesenthusiast makes sense, thanks. Do food release and force required correlate at all? A convex grind seems like it’d take a lot more force than a flat laser… is there a way to have your cake and eat it too? (Laser with release)
LOOOOOVE my Denka now
By the way: effortless, laser like strokes are possible with thicker, convex ground knives if you use proper knife techniques. If you utilize the whole length of your blade instead of just chopping up and down. As you can see with the JNS Kaeru in this video. FYI: Just in case you do not already apply a controlled rocking, push-cut or pull-cut technique.
I hardly use much force with any knife. No matter the grind. Skill and technique come first. Always let the knife do the work, if possible.
A flat grind/bevel will always create stiction. A thick blade with a convex grind will always create more displacement, perhaps even wedging.
A convex grind combined with the perfect thickness and used with proper skill and technique...now that could feel like a laser with great food release.
Hi, I like your blog very much I always listen what you have to say. But I have one problem your mic have a very echo sound. Please buy one a good one end charge me
I know. Please bear with me. I'm just a small creator, with only 2k subs, doing it all by myself, in my spare time, in the corner of my living room. I actually do have good mics. What I don't have is a good camera. I do it all with my phone and edit in iMovie. I try to make the best with the minimum of gear.
The good mics I have can't be used with a phone. The input does not match. I will have to invest in a proper camera one day and in a perfect world make a dedicated room for youtubing one day. But for an amateur, I'm not making terrible quality videos. Give me some time to grow and evolve organically as a channel. It will get better every baby step at the time.
Trick question. The answer is obviously single bevel
Hahaha. Good one. But no. I actually tested these three, and only these three different grinds on double bevel knives for this video. But indeed, for excellent food release: join the Ura side of the force.
Yeah, so fu...k all these smiths with beautiful Damascus patterns and get Kaeru or Fujiwara 🎉 😂 🔪
If you're looking for a no nonsense workhorse, look no further than a Kaeru. But I also do love and appreciate all the craftsmanship that went into alll my other knives, even if the have shitty food release. I appreciate them for what they are.
But yeah, I do agree with the sentiment of your comment.