Nostalgia Nerd I indeed prefered your long version, but I didn't own a MegaDrive as a kid, and had gotten used to the 60hz version with emulators, so when I finally bought the real thing, I was kinda disappointed.
"Short answer; They didn't bother to optimize the game for PAL-regions." Actually, the short answer is that they really optimized for PAL regions. PAL just did its best to not to be optimal for gaming.
Because most games were designed for NTSC, PAL gamers didn't even get to benefit from those extra 100 lines. Those extra lines just ended up as black borders on the top and bottom of the screen, with a squished picture in between.
@@televisionandcheese I have a US genesis and never have any issues, it would of worked if you had an RGB Scart Cable and a tv which has a scart socket, most tvs in the early 90s only ran proper NTSC in colour through the Scart socket if you were trying to use composite or RF then it would of only given you a black and white crosshatch picture if any picture at all if it was very early 90s. I have a 1989 Sony trinitron 14"TV doesn't except ntsc through the AV inputs on the front or through RF, So I use RGB Scart it works perfectly with all my NTSC retro consoles
That explains why sometimes I had the fast gameplay and the slow gameplay on Sonic Mega Collection.Sometimes I would select 50Hz instead of 60Hz as I had no idea about it when I was younger.
@@theobserver4214 The GameCube PAL version is interesting because they include the NTSC and PAL version of the roms. Although they were lazy and kept the US Manuals. Selecting 60 Hz would play the NTSC roms and play like they do on the Japan/USA version. Playing Sonic 3D Flickies' Island actually loads the NTSC title Sonic 3D Blast in 60 Hz, despite the game selection displaying the PAL title. Selecting 50 Hz would play the PAL roms, and run slower (Sonic 1) or at an optimized speed (Sonic 2, 3, etc). However, the image is actually stretched. While this does remove the black boards, it looks awful and pixelated. Just stick with the 60 Hz option. Now the Xbox and PS2 Plus versions threw the 60 Hz option out the window, and the games use the PAL roms running at 50 Hz. I'm not sure if the image is stretched know, but I really don't care to buy a copy to find out.
Nostalgia Nerd Over here, at least where I went to school, the arguments were usually ended by either "Do you have Final Fantasy 3?" or "My Mortal Kombat has blood!". Fairly even battles here.
You should try some other songs in PAL speed, most are actually better. Particularly Labyrinth and bosses imo. ua-cam.com/video/D_ZOZlxFTmU/v-deo.html I also like Marble and Spring Yard. Green hill zone is probably the worst slowed down.
Because Europeans were so stuck up about PAL being better than NTSC they forget that the frame rate is more important than a minuscule resolution increase.
Most emulators don't "run at 50hz by default", they auto-detect the rom's letter region. You can override this of course. But modern emulators auto detect
11:47 Hah, that's a picture I once took of my own Mega Drive. Fun to see it and the article I wrote about the single switch mod pop up in a video like this. Also thanks for giving credit. :)
even though pal did have a higher resolution games like sonic were never optimised for this which is why you have black bars on the top and bottom of the screen where you should be getting more pixels than the ntsc versions but dont sadly :(
Before the advent of video games, PAL 50 was considered superior to NTSC. SECAM was different from PAL in that, besides the monochrome part of the signal, it was completely different. PAL and NTSC both used AM for color encoding. It takes three signals to get color, one of which is the monochrome signal. The other two are encoded in AM, interleaved within another, and transmitted inside the monochrome signal. PAL also inverts the color every other scan-line so that errors would cancel out, which NTSC doesn't do. SECAM used narrow band FM color, with both color signals laid beside one another, and then transmitted inside the monochrome signal. The thing with SECAM though, is that old computers could easily fake the NTSC/PAL color signal using simple circuits, and get color that much easier. SECAM on the other hand was more complex, and SECAM versions of old computers / consoles often had poor colors.
Moving from the PS2 and Gamecube, a lot of games supported this, no idea if it was because more TVs supporting both standards I have no idea, even if some games diddnt ask, if u held buttons on start up it might let you change to, it was a very wierd time, but those consoles diddnt have the same slowdown issues though...
Classic game consoles don't do even/odd line fields, they output 50/60 frames of progressive signal at half the vertical resolution. The television broadcasts all have an odd number of lines in total, so that when a new field starts at the beginning of the line, it's an odd field, and when it starts at the middle of the line, it's an even field. Because of this, the synchronization hardware can be designed to handle the odd/even field transition with minimum number of parts - the timing of signals vs. oscillators would implicitly result in the vertical offset between lines of odd and even fields. However, classic consoles don't exactly conform to broadcast standards. They have an even total number of lines, thus always triggering the odd field in analog CRT based TV sets. Though it can still land in odd/even fields in digital capture equipment that buffers.
You know what, I love the way you actually get into history about things beyond the games themselves. I actually learn the reasons behind why they are the way they are instead of just debating the topic at hand like a million other channels do on UA-cam. :) You've got a new subscriber.
There was no internet or easy way to compare, so this *was* what Sonic should run like from our perspective. There was no way to feel "screwed over" because it felt like the game ought to be this way. I think some of the songs sound better, honestly; notably Star Light and Final.
Taylor Broussard I still loved it, we didn't know we were being screwed. They fixed the problem by the time of Sonic 2 (by fixed the problem I mean stopped being fucking lazy and remembered most people don't live in America) which was the better game so it was all good.
I absolutely love educational channels like this! Almost instantly subscribed, You NEED more views. There's no way ONLY 20K people take interest in this!
Before the PS2 and GameCube, most PAL Dreamcast games already had a 50/60 Hz selection screen. At that time (late 90s), 60 Hz capable PAL TVs were already quite common, at least in Germany.
Great video, but the interlace description is not entirely correct. It's true on regular TV programs that they use interlace, but not on older game consoles. They output the video to the SAME line on each frame and don't alternate between them. That's why you can see a black line between each line on older systems. This also makes the game look better on a PAL TV than on a NTSC since the resolution seems to be higher. You have more lines so the black lines you always see on an NTSC TV is not so visible on a PAL. One benefit with PAL is that since the frequency is slower, you also get more processor speed for each frame. So a processor intensive game will run smoother on a PAL system.
Also movies in PAL television standard are usually played 1 frame per second faster than they should (at 25 fps as opposed to standard film 24 fps). In NTSC the original movie speed is preserved through complicated "3:2 pull-down" transfer from film 24 fps to NTSC 60 Hz.
I actually thought PAL was 25fps whereas NTSC was 30fps and cinemas used 24fps, could be wrong or misunderstanding it but we see that on UA-cam, on TV and DVDs.
Yeah, you are absolutely right, but in analog television (PAL or NTSC) these frames are interlaced, which means that one full frame actually consists of 2 fields, hence we have 60 fields per second or 60Hz refresh rate in NTSC television standard and 50 fields per second or 50Hz refresh rate in PAL standard.
kosmosyche I see, that clears that up, I used to sometimes do 50hz on games on the PC years back because for the most part it feels like running at 60hz but it's like having extra performance for nothing,
***** 50hz and 60hz is possible for gamers, 30hz is a bit of a joke, anyway, I used to use 50hz on some PC games in the past when I couldn't quite managed 60fps in games but was averaging in the 50, locking the refresh rate at 50hz pretty much gives the same smoothness of 60hz, even better if your hardware can't quite handle 60fps but it can handle 50fps, you get rid of the judder.
Oh man, I had heard about this but never actually saw/heard the direct comparison. It hurts! I've been a fan of Sonic since his existence and holy crap... it's so slow and messed up! It makes my brain confused. Thanks for explaining about the difference between NTSC and PAL, I never really knew what was going on with that.
I just noticed that it's messed up that Europe has slower video games (60fps over here, 50fps over there), but they have faster movies/tv shows (24fps over here, 25fps over there).
It was more common in PAL regions to simply take a film and speed it up by one frame per second, from 24fps to 25fps as a quick and dirty method (rather effective) to match the video framerate from films 24. They then shift the audio pitch down slightly. But the result was a film that ran 4.1% faster, run time wise versus what was seen in the theater. Seems hardly noticeable, but the result could have interesting changes for media. If a film that took three sides of a laserdisc set in NTSC, it often only took two sides on a PAL region laserdisc because the timing was just short enough to fit onto a single laserdisc, or just two sides.
I personally prefer the PAL format when comparing the two, mainly due to the fact it was I grew up with, sure we got slightly slower gameplay but IMO we got superior music, I dont know why but I just feel the music sounded a lot better and more right when played in the slower PAL clock speed
When I started to use the internet regularly nearly 15 years ago, one of the things I looked up first was the NES games I had grown up with. I was wondering why they were running so fast for others, especially the music. I then read the explanation and realized that the NES clones I was playing on were running the games too slowly. But to this day I think that NTSC music sounds wrong. Just too fast. Some of the fidelity is lost. One of the best examples is Batman, the 1989 Sunsoft game. I grew up listening to these songs in their slower variant, where they sound much more epic. Though when I play games on an emulator and set it to 50 Hz, it sounds slower than I remember. So maybe these clones used something in-between 50 and 60 Hz?
Another good example was Street Fighter II on the SNES. Since we were all used to how the arcade machine played, it was VERY noticable when our SNES version had floaty moon-gravity jumping, and so we started importing NTSC consoles instead. But I hate when people suggest they didn't bother to "optimize" the games for PAL - as if it's just a case of being lazy. To speed up the game you need to skip frames which is even worse than running the game slower, things like combos in Street Fighter depend on exact numbers of frames, you'd be changing the entire gameplay.
Games such as Street Fighter II were not using the SNES hardware to it's fullest though, because there were cheats for the datel action replay or game genie that could make the gameplay much faster without skipping any animation at all. You don't need to skip frames to speed something up unless the technology cannot handle the game showing every frame at a faster rate. I'm sure some games couldn't be sped up well though (something like virtua racing on megadrive that had a 3d processor inside the cartridge)
+MrVidification I think you've misunderstood the video. This isn't about how fast the hardware can process frames. The vertical refresh rate is locked at 50Hz or 60Hz so of course you cannot just show the same number of frames but somehow faster, you actually have to skip some.
googleboughtmee yes I am only replying to your comment on people saying they developers were 'not bothering to optimise for pal'. You are relating to refresh rate, but the gamers were not. Some people used that as a way to say developers were simply not bothering to spend any extra time to get a game to match it's ntsc equivalent. Relating to the last five+ years or so, for the few games that still have no 60hz option as that easy solution, they have now 'optimised' by removing borders,speeding up the game animation etc-with no skipping necessary.
googleboughtmee Not every game on the MD system was 17% slower than the ntsc version (50/60hz) but most games at this time were bordered. Of course you could cheat by modding your console with a 60hz switch. Some forums have mentioned bootleg 50hz carts being sped up with added inside components too. I don't know if any official 16 bit carts were 60hz only (I doubt it) but the former could run on any pal tv at 60hz via scart cable. I suppose to optimise it's all about noting the maximum fps possible without animation skip, synchronising for both audio and that tv display to avoid output issues. I am sure many older games did not need that screen to redraw at the maximum that their pal and ntsc televisions allowed. Every game was no doubt different in what was possible, so I am sure some games could not be optimised well. It's going to be far more time-consuming to do it for complex 3D games, so the 60hz option will usually be there instead. The Dreamcast set the standard for 60hz but the PS2 that came after it did not, with a far lower percentage of 60hz titles. I think some games such as Crash Bandicoot on PS were optimised,but there were more examples on N64.Someone mentions the SNES pal super tennis being optimised but I can't see a comparison on here
I think you should have clarified that these old games consoles don't output interlaced images. Every subfield represents a complete frame, output at 50/60 hz. Instead of 480i its 240p for NTSC.
I remember, back as a child, when a friend from the UK came to Canada for the summer, he was blown away with how fast Sonic was over here. I had no idea what he meant when he said "Sonic runs slower on the Mega Drive," until many, many years later. Ultimately, during the '80s and '90s, it would have been much easier to just add in coding for optimisation during the European localisation process of a given game. This was rarely done, though. From laziness? Or simply due to the differences in the hardware, given on which side of the pond you're on?
Nintendo seemed like the only company who went the extra mile and optimised most of their games for PAL territories. There were exceptions such as the Mattel version of Mario 1, and Kid Icarus, but overall most games had their music optimised. Zelda 1 & 2, Mario 2 & 3, Kirby's Adventure, etc.
PAL was 576 lines of resolution compared to NTSC's 480 lines... Most older consoles (including the Mega Drive) then used a progressive mode (to avoid interlacing) which led to 240p (and scanlines). The additional lines you referenced were just used for overscan and were never visible. This is what essentially led to the 640x480 resolution (progressive) mode that some later consoles adopted over component cables. PAL optimisation wasn't really standard until the Dreamcast (which allowed most games to select between 50/60hz)
I've always seen these comparisons with Sonic 1. But what about Sonic 3? Did they fix this in the end because I feel that the JP and EU versions feel the same in that release.
Starting at 13:18, your subtitles no longer constantly match your audio. It's as if content was scratched out from the video during editing, while sub were left in, based on your original script. e.g. "I love it when a plan comes together."
But you do realize that the composer of music always intended it to be in a certain pitch and tempo. That's the big problem with PAL in general is that it has a telecine process that speeds up 24 FPS of film to 25 FPS which speeds up and pitches up the sound unlike the NTSC 3:2 pulldown. Pitching up the sound is far more noticeable than the NTSC "jittering" of 3:2 pulldown.
Apart from the film speed up, 50hz does also use a pulldown system done every 12 field of video! that works better than the 3:2 pulldown..living in the States back in the 90`s i notice that watching movies on 60hz,the judder was very annoying and distracting to me,i was not accustomed to it, ,also the picture was a little less sharper and the lines very visible on a tv tube 21 inches up and the colour was not as good ,in some programs it look really nice but when they would cross over to programs comming from different parts of the country or video recordings the colours were horrible. this you could correct with the tint control that was new to me ,but there came a time you just would not bother to correct it anymore and put up with its colours,now moderm tv sets everywere have these tint controls in them, that i find good only for old american tv shows recorded on old vcr.We did get screw up with the Japs slowing down the games and putting black bars at the top and bottom of the picture due to there lower resolution of video.
I personally like the PAL music a lot too, I think they are about as good as each other, just quite different. And even though the speed was slower in the PAL region, it was still a fast paced game compared to other games.
2 things. 1) Sonic 2 in PAL does NOT have optimised gameplay, (it's the exact same as Sonic 1). Only the music is optimised. 2) If you switch the region of the Megadrive/Genesis/emulator during the game being run, you'll get undesired effects. Change the region before starting the game. Otherwise, nice technical video. My video didn't inspire you by any chance did it? :)
That's because for movies shot at 24fps (which is the industry standard) they just speed it up to 25fps for PAL TV broadcasts and call it a day. In NTSC territories they would have to speed it up to 29.97fps, which would be too noticeable, so they do a more proper conversion with a machine called a telecine, which has it's own issues but is less noticeable to the end user
Oh man that outro brought me back. (PS I could tell you used debug mode to get all the emeralds for it, but I won't tell). For extra effect I would've pixelated your own titles to really sell it as a Sonic credits roll. Still, awesome video as I always wondered why Sonic 2 and beyond sounded faster than Sonic 1. Now I know. I knew about the 50/60Mhz region specific consoles but didn't think this had an effect on gameplay. Cheers Nerd. Love it. 😬 😀 👍
There is no PAL-RGB... only Zuul! :D Nice video! I really like the comparison. But please DON'T mix up PAL and 576i. The 625 line system (called 576i nowadays) is resposible for the resolution and field rate of 50Hz but has nothing to do with PAL. PAL, NTSC and SECAM are nothing more than the colour systems used to transform a colour signal to a monochrome image with a colour overlay, which was necessary to remain compatible with monochrome sets in the 60ies and 70ies. Signals via s-video, composite (simply s-video fused together) and RF (modulated composite) use this technique and while it is true, that most countries with 50Hz use PAL and those with 60Hz use NTSC, it's still two different things. Brazil even uses PAL with 60HZ.That means, that there is no PAL RGB! Only 50Hz-PAL. If it is PAL or NTSC, it must be RF, composite or s-video - If it is RGB, YPbPr or anything digital, it is not dealing with those systems And that is why the french consoles tend to have those weird RGB exeptions (NES and Atari 7800 are converted to RGB, Master System 2 has RGB and the N64 is prepared for RGB) and why you get colour with the Mega Drive on 60Hz via SCART, because you don't have to care for the colour systems, if you connect via RGB. There's just 60Hz or 50Hz, so don't call it PAL ;) Keep up the good work! I especially like you CPC stuff :)
Well, mostly people use PAL and NTSC for these things, as it is just easy to say. However, I am not sure I agree that these are just color standards, as they specify timing aspects of the signal which is the origin for the vertical resolution of the TV image. The timing became much more of an issue when they were adding a color signal while having to maintain the same bandwidth without causing too much interference between the different parts of the signal, so these new standards had to specify them. In fact, for NTSC they had to reduce the number of lines per second a bit from the existing standard, which is also why the NTSC standard field rate is 59,94 rather than the 60 used for the older sytem.
+Ts6451 PAL and NTSC are nothing more than these colour systems. The number of lines and the refresh rates are determined by the underlying TV standards, like 'System M'. While it's true that the timing of the 60Hz systems had to be changed slightly below 60Hz for compatibility with NTSC, this timing is not a property of NTSC. It was done to make the combination of 60Hz TV with NTSC colour possible while staying compatible. Yeah, I know a lot of people use the term PAL for 50Hz, but that doesn't change the fact that it's plainly wrong. it's like using the terms 'Stereo' and 'CD' interchanged because most CDs are in stereo. Actually... I wouldn't have minded it that much here, if the NN videos weren't that good and correct concerning technical aspects. For the most part I looked over that PAL=50Hz thing here, but the part, where it's said, you can get colour with SCART because it is PAL60 is beyond wrong :D It's RGB and PAL and RGB never occur at the same time... and there is a totally different thing called PAL60 I just complain because I care^^
You should try some other songs in PAL speed, most are actually better. Particularly Labyrinth and bosses imo. ua-cam.com/video/D_ZOZlxFTmU/v-deo.html I also like Marble and Spring Yard. Green hill zone is probably the worst slowed down.
And in Brazil, the PAL-M standard lets you play brazilian Mega Drive at 60Hz and with advantages of image quality of Europe PAL system. ;) Excellent video! +1 subscriber!
Wow thanks for the video comparison, I knew about NTSC/PAL but didn't realize that Sonic actually played slower on PAL. I grew up playing Sonic on NTSC, and that 50Hz is just painful to listen to.
Well that's the reason i never quite licked Sonic, it was way to sluggish , and it was supposed to be fast. I kept thinking it was to slow and unresponsive, never quite figured it out until about 10 years later with emulators
A Gamer Aaron Why not play games that are made for PAL? Most games have a PAL Version. But with Emulation this war has ended. I still have a SCART cable, even though only my old CRT has a input for that. So much better than Composite Video.
Michi Lo The Americans didn't have the connector on their TVs but I think Japan did, and all regions SNES/MD can definitely output it if you have a TV or monitor to use it.
I’m so glad my Dad was an electrical engineer and aware of this when I was a kid. He was always saying use an RGB Scart and set the Sony Trinitron TV input we had to NTSC 60hz for the Scart input. I do remember wondering why Megadrive games looked and sounded different on other people’s TVs. I also remember that until we got the Scart lead, it was slower but that was only a few weeks.
I didn't even get an option to run in 60Hz... probably because I was using a VGA box which ran at 60Hz no matter what. Which is good, since my TV at the time didn't know WTF when you fed it a 60Hz signal.
That's an exceptional explanation video on the 50/60hz debate. Subscribed! If people are still confused as to the difference after watching this, then they are dimmer than those original AEG 19th century light bulbs!
Awsome that you showed the original East Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania plant of the Westinghouse Electric & Mfg Co! 1/2 of my family worked in that very complex from about 1905-1980! (many of the buildings are still there.) You might like to know that America's first licenced commercial radio station, KDKA originated on the roof of a building at the East Pittsburgh works!😀👍 Cheers!🍻
Ehm, alternating current was _not_ invented for higher efficiency for long distances, but simply to make a more simplified motor work. For long distance transmission, the Voltge is at 50,000-150,000 Volts, THAT makes it efficient. Because the lines can be loaded with minimal current-intensity (Ampere) which is important because the higher the Intensity (Ampere), the hotter the wire gets. The colder the cable is, the more efficient is current distribution. But the total electrical power is what's important at the end. For example, 100kW (Kilowatts) divided by 220V would be a whopping 455 Ampere! That is enough to make a nail melt in 3 seconds! (Look for 500 Ampere on youtube). At 100kV it would be measily 1A. A good household cable is rated at 16A.... At 50hz the length of the sinus-wave is 6000kM....not so important. Frequency is important for transforming low to high voltage. (In transformers for older LCD backlights)
AmstradExin Um, Ok, Ahhhh, WTF, Without alternating current, How would you convert the low amperage,but high voltage current to the high amperage,low voltage current needed at the user end? Alternating Current certainly was developed PRIMARILY for long distance transmission of power It took a fuckin genuine genius (Nikola Tesla) to invent a practical AC motor when DC motors were already common at the time, That in and of itself proves that AC certainly was NOT developed to make simpler motors (I now officially have a headache...)
No, AC was chosen because you can send it cheaply over a distance by having multiple phases close together on a single pole, to send HVDC over a long distance is enormously dangerous and inefficient and can really only be done underground and is why Edison proposed having small power stations scattered throughout cities. Even today we only send HVDC under rivers and seas because the consequences of an accident could be catastrophic. Research it.
I have an original PAL Mega Drive and Sonic 1 cart, and playing it on an old PAL CRT, it’s really not that bad. I actually like it, I might even prefer it slowed down.
When I was a kid I was an Amiga gamer and I remember that you could switch from PAL to NTSC for games and being that most games were designed for PAL on the Amiga, NTSC felt weird and too fast, more so the music, I also played on the SNES and Mega Drive and in all honesty, most of us didn't know about the speed differences from PAL to NTSC and in all honesty it didn't actually matter, it felt nature to us, as the clip points out, there was benefits and negatives to both PAL and NTSC at the time, lucky for us all, we don't have to worry about that anymore.
Kinda ironic that even older Sonic games have bad programming in them. Linking fps to game speed is a no-no (unless you are writing space invaders for 1978 hardware)!
Nostalgia Nerd: I love your videos. My name is Dave and I'm from Scotland now living in America so I really like this video. In this particular video however I just wanted to nitpick that you say "over here" meaning UK and then later you again say over here although this time meaning USA. It's a pathetic nitpick but I thought you'd appreciate that it makes it more difficult to "know" where you are. Love and hugs, fellow gamer! I love your work please keep going. I always did and still do care about input lag and fps. It's been an obsession since 486 and later SNES. I really loved your edo memory video. You really hit home with that. Thank you for being you and keeping focused on keeping your channel going! many likes many smiles many jokings many laughings!
Well this makes things a lot clearer. From the UK and I always thought Sonic was easier on the Mega Drive and I'd just lost my touch on the newer emulated versions. It also explains why the music sounds different on YT
Hello from France ! Love your videos and this it for the comparaison between 50hz vs 60hz is very good ! I knew the MD when it was launch in France but at this time, no one here knew about the difference of 60Hz because we never heard of it at this time but in the middle of 90's it was a important point for the more hardcore of us and all the Mega Fan want to made the "switch modding" to push the MD in 60Hz ! When I REdiscover my MD in 60Hz is was ... BLASTING PROCESSING FOR REAL IN MY HEAD !!!!!! Wouaaaaa !!!! It's really so far better to play on 60hz than 50hz ! More speed, more reactive, Sonic 2 for example are so great ! I got a lot of memories of this period ! My brother buy in 1993 the Snes (in France it was the Snin !) to play on 60Hz ! When we discover the 60Hz, we never want to replay ours games on 50Hz ! But today in retrogaming there are a lot of people who never heard about this difference and just don't care because they never play games in 60Hz ... it's sad but true !!!! But I know there are some cartridges who was optimised in 50Hz to have the speed of the 60Hz version ! Developpers just made the game runs faster in 50Hz to achieve the 60hz speed like Super Aleste for Snin for example or ThunderForce IV on MD (and for TF4, it's one of the rarest example of I prefer to play the 50Hz version than the 60Hz because it is less slow ... but I put an overclock to my MD - 10,20Mhz CPU Clockspeed like the arcade counterpart of the MD - to help it to have a more consistant and fluid animation and Empire Steel, one of the slowlest shmup I know on MD !). I love your works, I love how your video are mounted, documented and commented, I feel your enthousiasm and passion and that's is really why I love to see you. Sorry for my very bad english, I try to made some effort but it's difficult to speak/write english well and correctly ! Hope you the best.
Fusion? Wat? Genecyst on MS-DOS 6.22. There is no other way for me :) Great video man, thanks for sharing! I knew about the differences, but the refresher course was definitely welcome!
Nerd, you really got me going, You got me so, I don't know what I'm doing. You really made my day with the happy ending of Sonic 1 (Mega Drive) playing at the end of this video. Sonic will always be my favourite little blue mascot.
Yes the mega drive is a different console. We all know sega had to make a totally different console for EU it's not like sega changed the name of the mega drive to genesis due to copyright or anything, Stupid wikapedia how dare you lie to us.
Good to know there are PAL optimized games on the Master System. I live in the US and it's a region-free machine, I was tempted to import some UK-only games for it so I'd be interested to see which ones would run too fast to be playable on my NTSC console.
Just remember the section talking about how TV's only show half the picture at a time of this video misleadingly implies that game consoles output interlaced video. They don't. They use a hacked timing signal to output 224p or 240p or something like that by drawing the same set of lines twice, and leaving the other lines blank. This is what causes the dark lines on a display that emulators call the 'scanline effect'. It also causes most modern non-crt TV's to display the output of old consoles and home computers incorrectly, leading to an odd form of image instability that's not supposed to be there. (mosern tv's largely ignore the actual timing signal, and just assume a pal input is 576i, and an ntsc one is 480i, which, for most systems up to about the ps1/n64 era is wrong, and displays the picture incorrectly)
I mean, I'll be honest. I actually saw it done here ua-cam.com/video/iPhESbeKFIE/v-deo.html but he might have borrowed from you as well. It's a good test. Makes complete sense.
Games released on the Mega Drive specifically for Europe usually utililze the higher resolution and better colour reproduction of PAL. So basically you give up some framerates for some higher resolution and better colours. Most games on the Mega Drive rarely hit 50fps anyway, so the framerate issue isn't that of an issue for most games released on the system.
When I visited Europe for work every year between 1999 and around 2005 I couldn't watch television without getting a headache. 50 Hz isn't enough! Hopefully modern HD televisions in Europe no longer have this flickering problem.
well weve had 60hz video games since 1999 and im not sure about this flickering problem youre on about cos my american friends say they have never had this problem!
What about the fact that having to output less frames meaning that they could be outputed with slightly higher accuracy(I know it's a shit answer but what did you expect :P)
@ SirBlueWizard You my friend are wrong. PAL 50 hertz runs stable and does not need any bullshit dropped frames trickery like you would need for NTSC to make the shit work somehow. Besides PAL always had the supperior color presentation, while NTSC was a disaster for broadcasters. NTSC was also known as an acronym for "Never The Same Color" for a reason.
I don't understand what was Sega thinking... Even most third party games were optimized for the PAL format by 1991! I remember the game Hellfire, from Toaplan, a 1989 Megadrive game running absolutely fine in PAL! But for freakin SONIC, you know, Sega's mascott, a game designed to boost sales and to show the Megadrive capabilities, they didn't even bother to optimize it for PAL regions... A shame, really. At least Nintendo optimized their IP for PAL on NES, SMB1 runs even faster in PAL than the NTSC version!
I loved Sonic the speed was insane it was addicting but going to fast was nerve racking as I never knew if I'd run into a hazard or fall off the map. Sometimes Sonic would go so fast he'd be off screen and I'd have to slow down just to see where the fuck I was lol
Well it certainly *did* though, as the video points out, it's not like we knew any better in the 80's and early 90's. It wasn't really until the popularity of pirating on the Playstation via mod-chips that more people became aware of the differences at a far larger scale than those that imported consoles and games. After that, more would seek out US copies of pirated games instead of PAL ones. What isn't mentioned in the video is that, starting with the Dreamcast, we started getting an actual PAL60 mode, provided it was coded into the game. Many Dreamcast, Xbox and Gamecube games would support this PAL60 mode so for the likes of Sonic Adventure, Super Smash Bros Melee, Halo 2, we were on an even playing field before the arrivial of HDTV rendered the whole situation irrelevant.
My first console to offer 60hz was definitely Dreamcast. Some developers probably still remain lazy though, especially on virtual stores. I don't know if there are pal ps1 or ps2 games on the PS4 store, but I'd be wondering if they just run in their original 50hz mode or are all optimised, if any exist. Gamers were modding their MD and SNES around 1994 with 50-60hz switches just so they could play rpgs such as Final Fantasy at full speed and full screen, but nowadays of course far more people demand it.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #30 ДВА В ОДНОМ [Один человек]• Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nrXy15orKhY/mqdefault.jpg)
Short answer; They didn't bother to optimize the game for PAL-regions.
That is indeed a short answer. A little hollow and lacking meat & context, but whatever floats yer boat.
Nostalgia Nerd
I indeed prefered your long version, but I didn't own a MegaDrive as a kid, and had gotten used to the 60hz version with emulators, so when I finally bought the real thing, I was kinda disappointed.
Nostalgia Nerd That's what a short answer is, lacking in meat but doesn't make it shallow and he is right.
"Short answer; They didn't bother to optimize the game for PAL-regions."
Actually, the short answer is that they really optimized for PAL regions. PAL just did its best to not to be optimal for gaming.
Shane G How do you mean? You can't find a separate PAL romfile for Sonic, since it used the same rom all over the world.
These old consoles are easy to mod. I remember soldering in a simple switch in our PAL Mega Drive. And boom, it ran at 60 Hz :)
You got robbed 10 hz I was robbed 100 lines. :P
Had a 'merican genesis in UK, it didn't work with any of the TVs. :(
Because most games were designed for NTSC, PAL gamers didn't even get to benefit from those extra 100 lines. Those extra lines just ended up as black borders on the top and bottom of the screen, with a squished picture in between.
@@televisionandcheese I have a US genesis and never have any issues, it would of worked if you had an RGB Scart Cable and a tv which has a scart socket, most tvs in the early 90s only ran proper NTSC in colour through the Scart socket if you were trying to use composite or RF then it would of only given you a black and white crosshatch picture if any picture at all if it was very early 90s.
I have a 1989 Sony trinitron 14"TV doesn't except ntsc through the AV inputs on the front or through RF, So I use RGB Scart it works perfectly with all my NTSC retro consoles
television and cheese it won’t, because your TV was only 50hz, the Genesis was 60hz.
That explains why sometimes I had the fast gameplay and the slow gameplay on Sonic Mega Collection.Sometimes I would select 50Hz instead of 60Hz as I had no idea about it when I was younger.
Yeah, me too. Thinking back, that option appeared quite a lot.
Todd East haha same
EastBeast13 I thought it would always be 50hz on PAL copies? My NTSC-U copy doesn't have those options.
@Blank Blank Only PAL consoles have the option of switching to 60 hz. 50 hz is standard. On Gamecube you must hold down B during the startup.
@@theobserver4214 The GameCube PAL version is interesting because they include the NTSC and PAL version of the roms. Although they were lazy and kept the US Manuals.
Selecting 60 Hz would play the NTSC roms and play like they do on the Japan/USA version. Playing Sonic 3D Flickies' Island actually loads the NTSC title Sonic 3D Blast in 60 Hz, despite the game selection displaying the PAL title.
Selecting 50 Hz would play the PAL roms, and run slower (Sonic 1) or at an optimized speed (Sonic 2, 3, etc). However, the image is actually stretched. While this does remove the black boards, it looks awful and pixelated. Just stick with the 60 Hz option.
Now the Xbox and PS2 Plus versions threw the 60 Hz option out the window, and the games use the PAL roms running at 50 Hz. I'm not sure if the image is stretched know, but I really don't care to buy a copy to find out.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that "Blast processing" wasn't a buzz term used in the PAL territories then.
I bet!
Nope. It was not. You'd imagine then, it was even harder to argue the Mega Drive vs SNES case in our playgrounds.
Nostalgia Nerd Over here, at least where I went to school, the arguments were usually ended by either "Do you have Final Fantasy 3?" or "My Mortal Kombat has blood!". Fairly even battles here.
Nostalgia Nerd Oh I bet. Those were such heated battles here!
Andrew Vrba So, looking elsewhere for reasons to own said system I see, fair.
Hearing the theme in the PAL region version was painful to listen to.
You should try some other songs in PAL speed, most are actually better. Particularly Labyrinth and bosses imo. ua-cam.com/video/D_ZOZlxFTmU/v-deo.html I also like Marble and Spring Yard. Green hill zone is probably the worst slowed down.
As an American it feels very painful to listen to
I can imagine it being tough for you ntsc dudes. It is for most of us pals now too
@@snetmotnosrorb3946 Labyrinth and star light PAL all day baby
Imagine Hill Top Zone, but slower.
I say I'm a Brit who used to love playing Sonic back in the day and I would never want to go back playing at 50hz.
RocketeerRaccoon yup, the 60hz modded Megadrive gets used most, the 50hz ones collect dust.
Because Europeans were so stuck up about PAL being better than NTSC they forget that the frame rate is more important than a minuscule resolution increase.
Yeah, thank god this isn't a thing anymore now that TV's don't do that sort of thing anymore.
Sukuraidogai ermmm no.
Knuckles the Echidna ermmmmm yes.
Great video man. I always had a gut feeling something was different between the versions, but not to this degree! I feel robbed ;L
Hello, Mairusuuuuu!!! Question, have you beaten Muffet, yet?
Most emulators don't "run at 50hz by default", they auto-detect the rom's letter region. You can override this of course. But modern emulators auto detect
11:47 Hah, that's a picture I once took of my own Mega Drive. Fun to see it and the article I wrote about the single switch mod pop up in a video like this. Also thanks for giving credit. :)
Oh shit now I understand why the youtube videos of the music sounded faster than I remembered
Here's a playlist of your childhood ua-cam.com/video/_r8NJnzzzRY/v-deo.html
Mmmm sonic that takes me back ! Another awesome vid from my favourite Nerd 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Bruh
European Sonic should have been called Sub-Sonic the hedgehog.
or Sonic HD
Even better Sonic 4
Krisztian5HUN ???
he means cuz pal has superior video quality
even though pal did have a higher resolution games like sonic were never optimised for this which is why you have black bars on the top and bottom of the screen where you should be getting more pixels than the ntsc versions but dont sadly :(
Before the advent of video games, PAL 50 was considered superior to NTSC.
SECAM was different from PAL in that, besides the monochrome part of the signal, it was completely different.
PAL and NTSC both used AM for color encoding. It takes three signals to get color, one of which is the monochrome signal. The other two are encoded in AM, interleaved within another, and transmitted inside the monochrome signal. PAL also inverts the color every other scan-line so that errors would cancel out, which NTSC doesn't do.
SECAM used narrow band FM color, with both color signals laid beside one another, and then transmitted inside the monochrome signal.
The thing with SECAM though, is that old computers could easily fake the NTSC/PAL color signal using simple circuits, and get color that much easier. SECAM on the other hand was more complex, and SECAM versions of old computers / consoles often had poor colors.
2:18 - That map doesn’t fit quite well for the early 20th century. :D
Sonic's meant to be fast?
Bro I thought he was supposed to be slow considering the walking speed in lost world
Nice callout to REM on your question of "What is this frequency?"
Nowadays:
Power: 100v-240v 50hz only or 60hz only!!
TV's: 50-60Hz (No Conversion Required)
I'm in the UK and on PS2, when playing Sonic Heroes, you had to select top use 60 or 50MHz.
I know this is unrelated, but on the Wii you can pick as well
They don't even get he test button elsewhere xD 60Hz peasants
Moving from the PS2 and Gamecube, a lot of games supported this, no idea if it was because more TVs supporting both standards I have no idea, even if some games diddnt ask, if u held buttons on start up it might let you change to, it was a very wierd time, but those consoles diddnt have the same slowdown issues though...
You do on taito legends 2 and some other games including Dreamcast games. Most modern PAL TVs are probably 60HZ now.
60hz master racers* :^)
Classic game consoles don't do even/odd line fields, they output 50/60 frames of progressive signal at half the vertical resolution.
The television broadcasts all have an odd number of lines in total, so that when a new field starts at the beginning of the line, it's an odd field, and when it starts at the middle of the line, it's an even field. Because of this, the synchronization hardware can be designed to handle the odd/even field transition with minimum number of parts - the timing of signals vs. oscillators would implicitly result in the vertical offset between lines of odd and even fields.
However, classic consoles don't exactly conform to broadcast standards. They have an even total number of lines, thus always triggering the odd field in analog CRT based TV sets. Though it can still land in odd/even fields in digital capture equipment that buffers.
Siana Gearz wow, someone who is actually competent about TV standards does retrogaming :)
Siana Gearz yep, that is why there are scanlines and why old games look like crap on modern TVs that try to deinterlace everything.
this should be top comment since he got this whole explanation wrong
Cool story bro
***** I think you are projecting too much.
You know what, I love the way you actually get into history about things beyond the games themselves. I actually learn the reasons behind why they are the way they are instead of just debating the topic at hand like a million other channels do on UA-cam. :) You've got a new subscriber.
the side by side made me cringe. holy eu had it bad for sonic games back in the day haha.
same here in Australia
There was no internet or easy way to compare, so this *was* what Sonic should run like from our perspective. There was no way to feel "screwed over" because it felt like the game ought to be this way. I think some of the songs sound better, honestly; notably Star Light and Final.
Taylor Broussard I still loved it, we didn't know we were being screwed. They fixed the problem by the time of Sonic 2 (by fixed the problem I mean stopped being fucking lazy and remembered most people don't live in America) which was the better game so it was all good.
One Sonic game*
You know back in the day when i was kid i didn't give a fuck
Fantastic outro there, man. Living up to the 'Nostalgia' fo sho x Right awn right awn
when I clicked on this video, I wasn't expecting a history lesson about electrical current in Europe and America.
I absolutely love educational channels like this!
Almost instantly subscribed, You NEED more views. There's no way ONLY 20K people take interest in this!
I can honestly say, things got better after SCART was introduced
Before the PS2 and GameCube, most PAL Dreamcast games already had a 50/60 Hz selection screen. At that time (late 90s), 60 Hz capable PAL TVs were already quite common, at least in Germany.
Yeah, playing PAL 60 Hertz games on the dreamcast on a 100hertz TV set was fucking awesome :D
They had faster games. We had RGB Scart.
Great video, but the interlace description is not entirely correct. It's true on regular TV programs that they use interlace, but not on older game consoles. They output the video to the SAME line on each frame and don't alternate between them. That's why you can see a black line between each line on older systems.
This also makes the game look better on a PAL TV than on a NTSC since the resolution seems to be higher. You have more lines so the black lines you always see on an NTSC TV is not so visible on a PAL.
One benefit with PAL is that since the frequency is slower, you also get more processor speed for each frame. So a processor intensive game will run smoother on a PAL system.
Sonic 2's split screen multiplayer uses interlacing. The doubled vertical resolution conveniently squishes everything to make room for 2 screens.
Also movies in PAL television standard are usually played 1 frame per second faster than they should (at 25 fps as opposed to standard film 24 fps). In NTSC the original movie speed is preserved through complicated "3:2 pull-down" transfer from film 24 fps to NTSC 60 Hz.
I actually thought PAL was 25fps whereas NTSC was 30fps and cinemas used 24fps, could be wrong or misunderstanding it but we see that on UA-cam, on TV and DVDs.
Yeah, you are absolutely right, but in analog television (PAL or NTSC) these frames are interlaced, which means that one full frame actually consists of 2 fields, hence we have 60 fields per second or 60Hz refresh rate in NTSC television standard and 50 fields per second or 50Hz refresh rate in PAL standard.
kosmosyche I see, that clears that up, I used to sometimes do 50hz on games on the PC years back because for the most part it feels like running at 60hz but it's like having extra performance for nothing,
you're crazy. 60hz is already terrible enough. 50 is godawful.
***** 50hz and 60hz is possible for gamers, 30hz is a bit of a joke, anyway, I used to use 50hz on some PC games in the past when I couldn't quite managed 60fps in games but was averaging in the 50, locking the refresh rate at 50hz pretty much gives the same smoothness of 60hz, even better if your hardware can't quite handle 60fps but it can handle 50fps, you get rid of the judder.
Oh man, I had heard about this but never actually saw/heard the direct comparison. It hurts! I've been a fan of Sonic since his existence and holy crap... it's so slow and messed up! It makes my brain confused.
Thanks for explaining about the difference between NTSC and PAL, I never really knew what was going on with that.
watched this a few months ago, came up on my recommended videos just now. only came back to give it a thumbs up. great vid, feller!
I just noticed that it's messed up that Europe has slower video games (60fps over here, 50fps over there), but they have faster movies/tv shows (24fps over here, 25fps over there).
It was more common in PAL regions to simply take a film and speed it up by one frame per second, from 24fps to 25fps as a quick and dirty method (rather effective) to match the video framerate from films 24. They then shift the audio pitch down slightly. But the result was a film that ran 4.1% faster, run time wise versus what was seen in the theater. Seems hardly noticeable, but the result could have interesting changes for media. If a film that took three sides of a laserdisc set in NTSC, it often only took two sides on a PAL region laserdisc because the timing was just short enough to fit onto a single laserdisc, or just two sides.
I personally prefer the PAL format when comparing the two, mainly due to the fact it was I grew up with, sure we got slightly slower gameplay but IMO we got superior music, I dont know why but I just feel the music sounded a lot better and more right when played in the slower PAL clock speed
When I started to use the internet regularly nearly 15 years ago, one of the things I looked up first was the NES games I had grown up with. I was wondering why they were running so fast for others, especially the music. I then read the explanation and realized that the NES clones I was playing on were running the games too slowly. But to this day I think that NTSC music sounds wrong. Just too fast. Some of the fidelity is lost. One of the best examples is Batman, the 1989 Sunsoft game. I grew up listening to these songs in their slower variant, where they sound much more epic. Though when I play games on an emulator and set it to 50 Hz, it sounds slower than I remember. So maybe these clones used something in-between 50 and 60 Hz?
It's the blast processing O.o
PAL sucks. T_T
pal is superior ,all american tv shows look blurry and low colour
Blast Processing was never mentioned in Europe, it was an American gimmick
Yeh I know, just saying that joke only really applies to North Americans. I know you're joking.
ojideagu
I knew the basics already regarding the difference, but this was still very informative. A fantastic video!
Another good example was Street Fighter II on the SNES. Since we were all used to how the arcade machine played, it was VERY noticable when our SNES version had floaty moon-gravity jumping, and so we started importing NTSC consoles instead.
But I hate when people suggest they didn't bother to "optimize" the games for PAL - as if it's just a case of being lazy. To speed up the game you need to skip frames which is even worse than running the game slower, things like combos in Street Fighter depend on exact numbers of frames, you'd be changing the entire gameplay.
Games such as Street Fighter II were not using the SNES hardware to it's fullest though, because there were cheats for the datel action replay or game genie that could make the gameplay much faster without skipping any animation at all. You don't need to skip frames to speed something up unless the technology cannot handle the game showing every frame at a faster rate. I'm sure some games couldn't be sped up well though (something like virtua racing on megadrive that had a 3d processor inside the cartridge)
+MrVidification I think you've misunderstood the video. This isn't about how fast the hardware can process frames. The vertical refresh rate is locked at 50Hz or 60Hz so of course you cannot just show the same number of frames but somehow faster, you actually have to skip some.
googleboughtmee
yes I am only replying to your comment on people saying they developers were 'not bothering to optimise for pal'. You are relating to refresh rate, but the gamers were not. Some people used that as a way to say developers were simply not bothering to spend any extra time to get a game to match it's ntsc equivalent.
Relating to the last five+ years or so, for the few games that still have no 60hz option as that easy solution, they have now 'optimised' by removing borders,speeding up the game animation etc-with no skipping necessary.
MrVidification How do you speed up the game while at the same time keeping it at 50Hz?
googleboughtmee
Not every game on the MD system was 17% slower than the ntsc version (50/60hz) but most games at this time were bordered. Of course you could cheat by modding your console with a 60hz switch. Some forums have mentioned bootleg 50hz carts being sped up with added inside components too. I don't know if any official 16 bit carts were 60hz only (I doubt it) but the former could run on any pal tv at 60hz via scart cable.
I suppose to optimise it's all about noting the maximum fps possible without animation skip, synchronising for both audio and that tv display to avoid output issues. I am sure many older games did not need that screen to redraw at the maximum that their pal and ntsc televisions allowed. Every game was no doubt different in what was possible, so I am sure some games could not be optimised well.
It's going to be far more time-consuming to do it for complex 3D games, so the 60hz option will usually be there instead.
The Dreamcast set the standard for 60hz but the PS2 that came after it did not, with a far lower percentage of 60hz titles.
I think some games such as Crash Bandicoot on PS were optimised,but there were more examples on N64.Someone mentions the SNES pal super tennis being optimised but I can't see a comparison on here
The PAL speed is actually tolerable to me.
Original speed is just a manic clusterf***.
I think you should have clarified that these old games consoles don't output interlaced images. Every subfield represents a complete frame, output at 50/60 hz. Instead of 480i its 240p for NTSC.
noop9k how can it output at 240p when the screen does indeed have 480 lines on it (without interlacing)?
Dean Fox why should I explain widely known facts to you in YT comments?
noop9k you don’t have to do anything bud. I’ll just assume your comment is incorrect. Thanks.
Dean Fox Ok. Tell me, what display standard you are talking about that has 480 lines without interlacing.
noop9k there are none, that’s my point. 240p is not 480i:
Nice! I always find this kind of info about different regions fascinating.
I remember, back as a child, when a friend from the UK came to Canada for the summer, he was blown away with how fast Sonic was over here. I had no idea what he meant when he said "Sonic runs slower on the Mega Drive," until many, many years later.
Ultimately, during the '80s and '90s, it would have been much easier to just add in coding for optimisation during the European localisation process of a given game. This was rarely done, though. From laziness? Or simply due to the differences in the hardware, given on which side of the pond you're on?
Mostly laziness. Nintendo seemed much better about this. From what I've heard, playing PAL Mario 64 on an NTSC system is quite the sped-up experience.
Nintendo seemed like the only company who went the extra mile and optimised most of their games for PAL territories. There were exceptions such as the Mattel version of Mario 1, and Kid Icarus, but overall most games had their music optimised. Zelda 1 & 2, Mario 2 & 3, Kirby's Adventure, etc.
PAL was 576 lines of resolution compared to NTSC's 480 lines... Most older consoles (including the Mega Drive) then used a progressive mode (to avoid interlacing) which led to 240p (and scanlines). The additional lines you referenced were just used for overscan and were never visible. This is what essentially led to the 640x480 resolution (progressive) mode that some later consoles adopted over component cables.
PAL optimisation wasn't really standard until the Dreamcast (which allowed most games to select between 50/60hz)
I've always seen these comparisons with Sonic 1. But what about Sonic 3? Did they fix this in the end because I feel that the JP and EU versions feel the same in that release.
Everything after Sonic 2 was coded to run perfect in both PAL and NTSC
Yeah, they had their act together by the third game.
+Nostalgia Nerd +Sotirisdim8 Sonic 2 and 3 are both slower on PAL. Check it yourself.
Its definitely not
Sotirisdim8 How are you testing it? I tested both on Fusion and on the real hardware before posting this.
Good breakdown, I knew why this was but didn't know the details. Thanks.
Starting at 13:18, your subtitles no longer constantly match your audio. It's as if content was scratched out from the video during editing, while sub were left in, based on your original script. e.g. "I love it when a plan comes together."
It's really distracting. Makes it hard to hear him!
Your videos are so excellent!! Amazing work and editing! Awesome!
Yeah we may of been having our blue hedgehog at a glacier 50hz but we got a lovely somber version of Star Light Zone! Take that rest of the world!
I do enjoy that version. I also prefer Labyrinth Zone in 50hz
Similarly, I thought the boss theme sounded more menacing when slowed down.
But you do realize that the composer of music always intended it to be in a certain pitch and tempo. That's the big problem with PAL in general is that it has a telecine process that speeds up 24 FPS of film to 25 FPS which speeds up and pitches up the sound unlike the NTSC 3:2 pulldown. Pitching up the sound is far more noticeable than the NTSC "jittering" of 3:2 pulldown.
Apart from the film speed up, 50hz does also use a pulldown system done every 12 field of video!
that works better than the 3:2 pulldown..living in the States back in the 90`s i notice that watching movies on 60hz,the judder was very annoying and distracting to me,i was not accustomed to it, ,also the picture was a little less sharper and the lines very visible on a tv tube 21 inches up and the colour was not as good ,in some programs it look really nice but when they would cross over to programs comming from different parts of the country or video recordings the colours were horrible.
this you could correct with the tint control that was new to me ,but there came a time you just would not bother to correct it anymore and put up with its colours,now moderm tv sets everywere have these tint controls in them, that i find good only for old american tv shows recorded on old vcr.We did get screw up with the Japs slowing down the games and putting black bars at the top and bottom of the picture due to there lower resolution of video.
Only played the PAL version never knew this :D
I personally like the PAL music a lot too, I think they are about as good as each other, just quite different. And even though the speed was slower in the PAL region, it was still a fast paced game compared to other games.
Great video! Thank you for the in-depth look at the two different standards. Subscribed.
2 things. 1) Sonic 2 in PAL does NOT have optimised gameplay, (it's the exact same as Sonic 1). Only the music is optimised. 2) If you switch the region of the Megadrive/Genesis/emulator during the game being run, you'll get undesired effects. Change the region before starting the game. Otherwise, nice technical video. My video didn't inspire you by any chance did it? :)
redhotsonic Sonic 3 I believe was better optimized, as the gameplay was much closer to NTSC speeds
Hey man like your vids
Wouldn't the PAL version modified to run at the right speed on PAL consoles require the PAL ROM?
I had no idea the speeds were different until now! Really well made video, and I've genuinely learnt something new!
The 60Hz and 50Hz issue seems to also affect TV series, where the theme song and audio seems higher pitched in Europe than in the USA, but I digress.
That's because for movies shot at 24fps (which is the industry standard) they just speed it up to 25fps for PAL TV broadcasts and call it a day. In NTSC territories they would have to speed it up to 29.97fps, which would be too noticeable, so they do a more proper conversion with a machine called a telecine, which has it's own issues but is less noticeable to the end user
Oh man that outro brought me back. (PS I could tell you used debug mode to get all the emeralds for it, but I won't tell). For extra effect I would've pixelated your own titles to really sell it as a Sonic credits roll. Still, awesome video as I always wondered why Sonic 2 and beyond sounded faster than Sonic 1. Now I know. I knew about the 50/60Mhz region specific consoles but didn't think this had an effect on gameplay. Cheers Nerd. Love it. 😬 😀 👍
There is no PAL-RGB... only Zuul! :D
Nice video! I really like the comparison.
But please DON'T mix up PAL and 576i. The 625 line system (called 576i nowadays) is resposible for the resolution and field rate of 50Hz but has nothing to do with PAL.
PAL, NTSC and SECAM are nothing more than the colour systems used to transform a colour signal to a monochrome image with a colour overlay, which was necessary to remain compatible with monochrome sets in the 60ies and 70ies. Signals via s-video, composite (simply s-video fused together) and RF (modulated composite) use this technique and while it is true, that most countries with 50Hz use PAL and those with 60Hz use NTSC, it's still two different things. Brazil even uses PAL with 60HZ.That means, that there is no PAL RGB! Only 50Hz-PAL. If it is PAL or NTSC, it must be RF, composite or s-video - If it is RGB, YPbPr or anything digital, it is not dealing with those systems
And that is why the french consoles tend to have those weird RGB exeptions (NES and Atari 7800 are converted to RGB, Master System 2 has RGB and the N64 is prepared for RGB) and why you get colour with the Mega Drive on 60Hz via SCART, because you don't have to care for the colour systems, if you connect via RGB. There's just 60Hz or 50Hz, so don't call it PAL ;)
Keep up the good work! I especially like you CPC stuff :)
Well, mostly people use PAL and NTSC for these things, as it is just easy to say.
However, I am not sure I agree that these are just color standards, as they specify timing aspects of the signal which is the origin for the vertical resolution of the TV image. The timing became much more of an issue when they were adding a color signal while having to maintain the same bandwidth without causing too much interference between the different parts of the signal, so these new standards had to specify them.
In fact, for NTSC they had to reduce the number of lines per second a bit from the existing standard, which is also why the NTSC standard field rate is 59,94 rather than the 60 used for the older sytem.
+Ts6451 PAL and NTSC are nothing more than these colour systems. The number of lines and the refresh rates are determined by the underlying TV standards, like 'System M'. While it's true that the timing of the 60Hz systems had to be changed slightly below 60Hz for compatibility with NTSC, this timing is not a property of NTSC. It was done to make the combination of 60Hz TV with NTSC colour possible while staying compatible.
Yeah, I know a lot of people use the term PAL for 50Hz, but that doesn't change the fact that it's plainly wrong. it's like using the terms 'Stereo' and 'CD' interchanged because most CDs are in stereo.
Actually... I wouldn't have minded it that much here, if the NN videos weren't that good and correct concerning technical aspects. For the most part I looked over that PAL=50Hz thing here, but the part, where it's said, you can get colour with SCART because it is PAL60 is beyond wrong :D
It's RGB and PAL and RGB never occur at the same time... and there is a totally different thing called PAL60
I just complain because I care^^
i love this video. best "its not a simple answer" example, ever.
As an european fan of the Sega Megadrive and sonic I kinda loved this video! Great channel man, keep going !
That's crazy! I'm gonna have to try this with the gamecube and F-zero GX. I've learned something uslessly useful. Thank you.
the green hills zone song slowed down is ew but fast is awsome
You should try some other songs in PAL speed, most are actually better. Particularly Labyrinth and bosses imo. ua-cam.com/video/D_ZOZlxFTmU/v-deo.html I also like Marble and Spring Yard. Green hill zone is probably the worst slowed down.
And in Brazil, the PAL-M standard lets you play brazilian Mega Drive at 60Hz and with advantages of image quality of Europe PAL system. ;)
Excellent video! +1 subscriber!
my PAL MD has two mod switches, one is a region switch & the other 50hz or 60hz switch,
Wow thanks for the video comparison, I knew about NTSC/PAL but didn't realize that Sonic actually played slower on PAL. I grew up playing Sonic on NTSC, and that 50Hz is just painful to listen to.
Well that's the reason i never quite licked Sonic, it was way to sluggish , and it was supposed to be fast.
I kept thinking it was to slow and unresponsive, never quite figured it out until about 10 years later with emulators
Fast things just taste better and require licking.
LifeOnEarth lol
Sonic is actually moving at his intended speed in America. The correct question should be "Why is Sonic slower in Europe?" (Disclaimer: am American)
America: GOTTA GO FAST
Europe / Other PAL Countries: goootttaaa goooo sloooooow
gotta go at a tolerable speed
sullyrox America:GOTTA GO FAST
PAL50 countries:Gotta go at a moderately fast rate
Interesting video, I've wondered about this since back in the 80's but never took the time to learn about it. Job well done!!
PAL is still better. I wouldn't have survived without SCART Cables. The Image looks so much better.
I'm so jealous of the crisp slowdown and messed up music.
A Gamer Aaron Why not play games that are made for PAL? Most games have a PAL Version.
But with Emulation this war has ended.
I still have a SCART cable, even though only my old CRT has a input for that. So much better than Composite Video.
NTSC consoles have scart rgb output too
googleboughtmee I did not know this. I thought SCART was a European thing.
Michi Lo
The Americans didn't have the connector on their TVs but I think Japan did, and all regions SNES/MD can definitely output it if you have a TV or monitor to use it.
I’m so glad my Dad was an electrical engineer and aware of this when I was a kid. He was always saying use an RGB Scart and set the Sony Trinitron TV input we had to NTSC 60hz for the Scart input. I do remember wondering why Megadrive games looked and sounded different on other people’s TVs. I also remember that until we got the Scart lead, it was slower but that was only a few weeks.
I think he also modded the console without letting me know (he didn’t want me opening stuff up and breaking it).
Sonic Adventure - first game to kill the European Slow Down, - by offering a 60Hz option at startup, if your TV supported it, =).
I didn't even get an option to run in 60Hz... probably because I was using a VGA box which ran at 60Hz no matter what. Which is good, since my TV at the time didn't know WTF when you fed it a 60Hz signal.
*Love SEGA DReamcast!!* ❤️
That's an exceptional explanation video on the 50/60hz debate. Subscribed! If people are still confused as to the difference after watching this, then they are dimmer than those original AEG 19th century light bulbs!
When I played Sonic as a kid I always thought the music sounded like it was slowed down. This explains it!
Awsome that you showed the original East Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania plant of the Westinghouse Electric & Mfg Co! 1/2 of my family worked in that very complex from about 1905-1980! (many of the buildings are still there.) You might like to know that America's first licenced commercial radio station, KDKA originated on the roof of a building at the East Pittsburgh works!😀👍 Cheers!🍻
Ehm, alternating current was _not_ invented for higher efficiency for long distances, but simply to make a more simplified motor work. For long distance transmission, the Voltge is at 50,000-150,000 Volts, THAT makes it efficient. Because the lines can be loaded with minimal current-intensity (Ampere) which is important because the higher the Intensity (Ampere), the hotter the wire gets. The colder the cable is, the more efficient is current distribution. But the total electrical power is what's important at the end. For example, 100kW (Kilowatts) divided by 220V would be a whopping 455 Ampere! That is enough to make a nail melt in 3 seconds! (Look for 500 Ampere on youtube). At 100kV it would be measily 1A. A good household cable is rated at 16A.... At 50hz the length of the sinus-wave is 6000kM....not so important. Frequency is important for transforming low to high voltage. (In transformers for older LCD backlights)
AmstradExin Um, Ok, Ahhhh, WTF, Without alternating current, How would you convert the low amperage,but high voltage current to the high amperage,low voltage current needed at the user end? Alternating Current certainly was developed PRIMARILY for long distance transmission of power It took a fuckin genuine genius (Nikola Tesla) to invent a practical AC motor when DC motors were already common at the time, That in and of itself proves that AC certainly was NOT developed to make simpler motors (I now officially have a headache...)
No, AC was chosen because you can send it cheaply over a distance by having multiple phases close together on a single pole, to send HVDC over a long distance is enormously dangerous and inefficient and can really only be done underground and is why Edison proposed having small power stations scattered throughout cities. Even today we only send HVDC under rivers and seas because the consequences of an accident could be catastrophic.
Research it.
I'm in the US and grew up with the Genesis. Never knew sonic was slower in the pal regions.
I have an original PAL Mega Drive and Sonic 1 cart, and playing it on an old PAL CRT, it’s really not that bad. I actually like it, I might even prefer it slowed down.
When I was a kid I was an Amiga gamer and I remember that you could switch from PAL to NTSC for games and being that most games were designed for PAL on the Amiga, NTSC felt weird and too fast, more so the music, I also played on the SNES and Mega Drive and in all honesty, most of us didn't know about the speed differences from PAL to NTSC and in all honesty it didn't actually matter, it felt nature to us, as the clip points out, there was benefits and negatives to both PAL and NTSC at the time, lucky for us all, we don't have to worry about that anymore.
Did you rock Tearaway Thomas?
Kinda ironic that even older Sonic games have bad programming in them. Linking fps to game speed is a no-no (unless you are writing space invaders for 1978 hardware)!
Nostalgia Nerd: I love your videos. My name is Dave and I'm from Scotland now living in America so I really like this video. In this particular video however I just wanted to nitpick that you say "over here" meaning UK and then later you again say over here although this time meaning USA. It's a pathetic nitpick but I thought you'd appreciate that it makes it more difficult to "know" where you are. Love and hugs, fellow gamer! I love your work please keep going.
I always did and still do care about input lag and fps. It's been an obsession since 486 and later SNES.
I really loved your edo memory video. You really hit home with that. Thank you for being you and keeping focused on keeping your channel going! many likes many smiles many jokings many laughings!
Tbh the 50Hz intro made me uncomfortable
Well this makes things a lot clearer. From the UK and I always thought Sonic was easier on the Mega Drive and I'd just lost my touch on the newer emulated versions. It also explains why the music sounds different on YT
See that? In America, even our electronics are always in a hurry 🤣
Hello from France ! Love your videos and this it for the comparaison between 50hz vs 60hz is very good ! I knew the MD when it was launch in France but at this time, no one here knew about the difference of 60Hz because we never heard of it at this time but in the middle of 90's it was a important point for the more hardcore of us and all the Mega Fan want to made the "switch modding" to push the MD in 60Hz ! When I REdiscover my MD in 60Hz is was ... BLASTING PROCESSING FOR REAL IN MY HEAD !!!!!! Wouaaaaa !!!! It's really so far better to play on 60hz than 50hz ! More speed, more reactive, Sonic 2 for example are so great ! I got a lot of memories of this period ! My brother buy in 1993 the Snes (in France it was the Snin !) to play on 60Hz ! When we discover the 60Hz, we never want to replay ours games on 50Hz ! But today in retrogaming there are a lot of people who never heard about this difference and just don't care because they never play games in 60Hz ... it's sad but true !!!! But I know there are some cartridges who was optimised in 50Hz to have the speed of the 60Hz version ! Developpers just made the game runs faster in 50Hz to achieve the 60hz speed like Super Aleste for Snin for example or ThunderForce IV on MD (and for TF4, it's one of the rarest example of I prefer to play the 50Hz version than the 60Hz because it is less slow ... but I put an overclock to my MD - 10,20Mhz CPU Clockspeed like the arcade counterpart of the MD - to help it to have a more consistant and fluid animation and Empire Steel, one of the slowlest shmup I know on MD !).
I love your works, I love how your video are mounted, documented and commented, I feel your enthousiasm and passion and that's is really why I love to see you. Sorry for my very bad english, I try to made some effort but it's difficult to speak/write english well and correctly ! Hope you the best.
I honestly prefer playing sonic at 50hz! I'm not sure if its nostalgia, but I dont seem to die as much haha
That's because it's essentially an easier game since with in literally running slower, you have more time to react to stuff.
Fusion? Wat?
Genecyst on MS-DOS 6.22. There is no other way for me :)
Great video man, thanks for sharing! I knew about the differences, but the refresher course was definitely welcome!
why wasn't I born in the us
It doesn't matter anymore unless you play old console hardware from the 1990's
it does because I own every console
Chaos X Gamer sell your pal and get the ntsc versions instead? My only idea.
You're lucky you weren't born there, or else you would've been fat and already been shot.
Dokuro Chan not accurate.
source: alive
Nerd, you really got me going,
You got me so, I don't know what I'm doing.
You really made my day with the happy ending of Sonic 1 (Mega Drive) playing at the end of this video. Sonic will always be my favourite little blue mascot.
Reading these comments make me glad I own a Genesis. The Mega Drive is good too, but where's the Genesis Does?
Genesis does what Mega Drive... don't. (y cant I think of a rhyme? .__.)
Megadrive is the japanese name for the rieneledne ( no i don't want to say it ) too. And that's NTSC.
I agree XD poor megadrive
Especially now that there are people who get the Framemeister and use SCART to get the best picture possible while getting the 60 hz.
Yes the mega drive is a different console. We all know sega had to make a totally different console for EU it's not like sega changed the name of the mega drive to genesis due to copyright or anything, Stupid wikapedia how dare you lie to us.
Good to know there are PAL optimized games on the Master System. I live in the US and it's a region-free machine, I was tempted to import some UK-only games for it so I'd be interested to see which ones would run too fast to be playable on my NTSC console.
Gotta go at a moderate speed
Just remember the section talking about how TV's only show half the picture at a time of this video misleadingly implies that game consoles output interlaced video. They don't. They use a hacked timing signal to output 224p or 240p or something like that by drawing the same set of lines twice, and leaving the other lines blank.
This is what causes the dark lines on a display that emulators call the 'scanline effect'.
It also causes most modern non-crt TV's to display the output of old consoles and home computers incorrectly, leading to an odd form of image instability that's not supposed to be there.
(mosern tv's largely ignore the actual timing signal, and just assume a pal input is 576i, and an ntsc one is 480i, which, for most systems up to about the ps1/n64 era is wrong, and displays the picture incorrectly)
Wow... The segment where you compared the speeds for Sonic 1 is almost identical to one I did back in July on my channel... Interesting :P
I mean, I'll be honest. I actually saw it done here ua-cam.com/video/iPhESbeKFIE/v-deo.html but he might have borrowed from you as well. It's a good test. Makes complete sense.
Games released on the Mega Drive specifically for Europe usually utililze the higher resolution and better colour reproduction of PAL. So basically you give up some framerates for some higher resolution and better colours. Most games on the Mega Drive rarely hit 50fps anyway, so the framerate issue isn't that of an issue for most games released on the system.
When I visited Europe for work every year between 1999 and around 2005 I couldn't watch television without getting a headache. 50 Hz isn't enough! Hopefully modern HD televisions in Europe no longer have this flickering problem.
I get said headache quite often from the difference between my TV / monitors and the CRT TV downstairs.
Horrible.
well weve had 60hz video games since 1999 and im not sure about this flickering problem youre on about cos my american friends say they have never had this problem!
Around that time, plenty of decent CRT TV's had at least a 100hz mode for just that reason.
Only CRTs have this flickering problem.
LCD TV's don't flicker
I had a Japanese PAL Megadrive, and got a switch added to the rear to switch between 50Hz and 60Hz.
There's not a single redeeming feature of PAL50
What about the fact that having to output less frames meaning that they could be outputed with slightly higher accuracy(I know it's a shit answer but what did you expect :P)
Actually it has a higher vertical resolution I think.
Yep, came from a castlevania 3 romhack that I made.
SirBlueWizard PAL 50 doesn't have a ridiculous tint control, RGB SCART too!
@ SirBlueWizard You my friend are wrong. PAL 50 hertz runs stable and does not need any bullshit dropped frames trickery like you would need for NTSC to make the shit work somehow. Besides PAL always had the supperior color presentation, while NTSC was a disaster for broadcasters. NTSC was also known as an acronym for "Never The Same Color" for a reason.
I don't understand what was Sega thinking... Even most third party games were optimized for the PAL format by 1991! I remember the game Hellfire, from Toaplan, a 1989 Megadrive game running absolutely fine in PAL!
But for freakin SONIC, you know, Sega's mascott, a game designed to boost sales and to show the Megadrive capabilities, they didn't even bother to optimize it for PAL regions... A shame, really.
At least Nintendo optimized their IP for PAL on NES, SMB1 runs even faster in PAL than the NTSC version!
You were robbed in the UK/EU. :/
And we Americans felt robbed when it came to certain titles either Japan had or Europe got sometimes.
Christopher Sobieniak Yeah... :/
alien soldier being 1 of them ;)
I always played Sonic at 70Hz, I just loved the additional speed :)
Always hated Sonic as a kid. Didn't feel like you had much control. Almost like you were just watching Sonic run.
Aren't you Mark Wahlberg?
no it's me... John Stamos.
No. You're acting delirious. You're Mark Wahlberg
you're blowing my fucking cover....
I loved Sonic the speed was insane it was addicting but going to fast was nerve racking as I never knew if I'd run into a hazard or fall off the map. Sometimes Sonic would go so fast he'd be off screen and I'd have to slow down just to see where the fuck I was lol
This video was fascinating. Good explanation.
must suck to be a gamer in eu
Well it certainly *did* though, as the video points out, it's not like we knew any better in the 80's and early 90's.
It wasn't really until the popularity of pirating on the Playstation via mod-chips that more people became aware of the differences at a far larger scale than those that imported consoles and games.
After that, more would seek out US copies of pirated games instead of PAL ones.
What isn't mentioned in the video is that, starting with the Dreamcast, we started getting an actual PAL60 mode, provided it was coded into the game.
Many Dreamcast, Xbox and Gamecube games would support this PAL60 mode so for the likes of Sonic Adventure, Super Smash Bros Melee, Halo 2, we were on an even playing field before the arrivial of HDTV rendered the whole situation irrelevant.
BrySkye
When you speak about Dream cast never forget Powerstone.
It does not suck.
Back then. Yes. Nowadays not so much.
My first console to offer 60hz was definitely Dreamcast. Some developers probably still remain lazy though, especially on virtual stores. I don't know if there are pal ps1 or ps2 games on the PS4 store, but I'd be wondering if they just run in their original 50hz mode or are all optimised, if any exist. Gamers were modding their MD and SNES around 1994 with 50-60hz switches just so they could play rpgs such as Final Fantasy at full speed and full screen, but nowadays of course far more people demand it.
well you got us back with the unplayable "Shadow of the Beast" port.