What Music Would Jesus Choose for Mass?
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
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Watch the whole interview here: • It's Time to Fix Sacre...
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
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I love Gregorian chant and TLM and reverent NO. Also love the high altar and ad orientum worship
4:00 This is an important point. "Folk Masses" often have very little in common with actual folk music, it's more like Bob Dylan 1960s folk music, which was, unsurprisingly, one of the most popular types of mainstream music when the Novus Ordo was adopted. I freely admit this as someone who has never been to a Traditional Latin Mass in my life. (I'm not opposed to TLM, nor do I dislike it, I just live in the rural South where you're happy to find a Catholic Church, regardless of type.)
A way of getting around this issue is, what kind of music would you play during the crucifixion or at the last supper?
Great video, always mentally stimulating talking about these differences in music. More people need to point this out
This is a complicated topic for various reasons. I have attended Synagogue services and listened to the Pslam's beautifully chanted in Hebrew, African Mass which includeds a lot of singing & dancing, First Nations Mass which includes the burning of sage & other cultural elements, praise & worship evangelical music, Taize chants, German organ music in both Catholic & protestant churches which is the closests to my own heritage and others. To be honest there's things about all these types of worship I like. The elephant in the room is most of the churches in the west tend to be ad-mix of really old white people and people from outside of Europe like the Philipines, Africa, India and if your American probably Latin America. A lot of these people have different liturgical and worship traditions.
So true. I’m Roman catholic rite, as all my ancestors. They never had a mass on latin. Peace🙏
🤺☦🇷🇺Now it's all clear. Now you show your colors...What do you think church music is a private program for your tastes? No, it ain't complicated at all, in fact it is very simple!
1. Protestant music (that includes Evangelical) is heretic secularist bs disguised as Christian
2. Music for church is music that suppose to be passed down just like oral Tradition and everything, from the church fathers! You don't understand the basics. The traditional Liturgy from Roman times is what Liturgy must be, and everything else is heresy.
3. Church music isn't even "music", it is prayer - holy eternal and never changing, just like the church style decorations and everything. Get it good inside your heads that the whole world is in constant change, except from the church - because God's throne and kingdom is beyond space and time!!
Agreed. We don’t have a church like that around me in the Latin Rite. I’ve had some thoughts to see if I could get my wife to go with me to a Byzantine Rite Church
You and Peter both sang with the contemporary choir?? You have no idea how that helps me! God bless our choir members, but it is so cringe for me to think back on those times early in my Catholic journey. I am so grateful to have grown with a true love for sacred music and the traditional Mass. Thanks for this, Brian & Peter.
It's so cringe the way you Lord one Mass over the other.
Both forms of the mass offer validly ordained priests who validly consecrate the Eucharist.
That Eucharist is the source and Summit of worship.
Be careful lording one Mass over the other.
It's idolatry.
Both masses offer that source and Summit. If you Lord one over the other, then that Eucharist isn't your source and Summit. Eucharist isn't your idol, the smells bells and whistles are. Good luck with that.
Idolators don't enter the kingdom of heaven.
@@zwijacthis comment literally shows your ignorance. Wow
@@zwijac the fact that both are valid doesn't mean that we can simplify the form as much as it's possible just to have the consecration
@@zwijacno one is lording anything. I was commenting on my own participation in the "contemporary" choir long ago. No one is forcing you to agree with my position or opinion so why are you so concerned with it? My preference for sacred music (which should have PRIDE OF PLACE in the Mass acc to GIRM) and the Latin Mass is honestly none of your business.
I think advocacy for traditionalism and reverence in the liturgy is important, but I worry about much that the professor has said about the Pope’s authority to change the liturgy. I think it would be very fruitful for Brian to have a conversation with Michael Lofton on the subject if they’re willing
The music of the Temple was probably similar to the music of the present day Coptic and Georgian, Ethiopian and Armenian Churches, and what you would find at an Athos monastery. Byzantine Chant is probably not so different, and evolved from the music of the Ancient Greeks.
Gregorian Chant is a simplification. The microtones disappeared with the four line notation, creating a different sound.
If you want to be able to rely on the music being appropriate, stick to the Eastern Orthodox. The Catholic Church has caused this problem for itself.
While retaining traditional forms of chant is good -- which I imagine the Eastern Catholic rites are just as capable of as their Eastern Orthodox counterparts -- I don't think change is a problem in and of itself.
Rather, the real issue is the loss of transcendence.
The simplifications made to Gregorian chant do nothing to diminish the sense of transcendence that chant provides. Polyphony is a more recent introduction but is equally capable of generating a sense of transcendence.
Theoretically, an inculturated or even thoroughly novel genre of music could be produced which evokes an equivalent sense of transcendence, and there wouldn't be much reason not to use it in church.
Unfortunately, modernity is so thoroughly walled off against the transcendent that it's difficult to imagine such a genre arising. But if it did, it'd be a pity for it to be suppressed just because it was new.
@@ikkinwithattitude
It took hundreds of years to compose the texts and music, for Greek, Arabic and Church Slavonic. In the Orthodox Church it becomes a problem to use old music for new translations. Music written for Latin does not work for English. The Russian Orthodox Church has music which is westernised, for Church Slavonic, and it can turn into performance.
Gregorian Chant is derived from Byzantine Chant via Old Roman. It retained the drone known as Ison or Organum.
@@physiocrat7143 Be that as it may, I think the most important consideration under the current conditions needs to be finding ways to help moderns crack through the concrete bunker of imminence and experience the transcendent.
That probably means accepting a bit more performance than the ancients would have liked, but it's better that than the current split between music that can only be appreciated by those who already have a view to the sky and music that adds more bricks to the bunker.
4:05 I suppose this is where the publicity break comes in for Dubliners or Angelo Kelly and Family?
7:03 Indeed. I missed on that one ...
believer : worshipping God = courtier : serving/petitioning his king
As Charles A. Coulombe mentioned "God is a monarchist" .... now, before you go off to pledge allegiance to an Anglican, recall, _so is_ the devil. Simius Dei and all that.
Upping the thumbnail game with Roumie 🤣
I don't blame you, it works. I know you're not a Chosen fan but I'm a sucker for the Gospel dramatizations even if I don't agree with how they do it.
Quiet background music and silence
2:46 If you like Kumbaya, it is _probably_ OK to sing it outside Mass (given the meaning, which actually parallels EO prayers, where kyrie eleison is said instead of kumbaya, it should perhaps still be in Church, like when the priest is coming in for Eucharistic adoration with the host in a monstrance) ....
"I am not Jesus but am call upon to be Jesus" - there is a lo in that.
5:35 It may here be noted:
* the first mass production of anything intellectual or artistic was not the vinyls of either Decca or anywhere else, it was in fact Gutenberg's press that was Mass producing Bibles and Missals and Breviaries;
* and while the texts in these are a a closed set, apart from new three prayers and one martyrology reading per new saint's day, basically, Classical music was certainly mass produced in the artistic sense. Tommaso Zillio considered the composer of the Baroque era as "a human version of a jukebox" ... and the words of Johann Mattheson (1681-1764) in his _"Der vollkommene Capellmeister"_ gives very "unsensitive" advice on how to compose a sonata : 1) take an already existing sonata, 2) keep the bass line and write a new melody for it, 3) if you want to be really, _really_ original, keep your new melody and write a new bass line for it.
Classical music, very unlike "modern Classical music" was not "l'art pour l'art" without any kind of commercial view in sight. Johann Mattheson, singing Opera, was an employee. Leopold Mozart was an employee of the archbishop of Salzburg. His son Wolfgang became a partner to Opera houses, the kind which promoted singers like Johann Mattheson.
Opera in the day (and to some in Vienna still this day) was what Hollywood and Broadway have become in the US.
In fact, associating Classical Music, Opera and Ballet with specifically aristocrats probably comes from Russia and the Bolshoi Theatres in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Especially in Moscow, probably, that _very Western_ music never caught on, and Rimski-Korsakov never became the full equivalent of Classical, so Classical became associated with Aristocrats. And as for performers probably with homosexuality. Since a certain Revolution, as foretold in Fatima, Russia has spread its errors (including erroneous perspective on Classical music) over the world.
How can you say breaking bread is profane? It has many traditional hymns. It also has many modern hymns that I would never choose for Mass. But to say that the entire hymnal is profane is ridiculous.
And I agree these Mass wars and music wars and Pope wars are very tiresome, which is why I only tune in once in a great while.
To me, the way Breaking Break is mentioned doesn't sound like he's saying "every single thing in the hymnal is profane"
Nice question
3:11 _"nobody spoke liturgical Hebrew"_
Not quite true, in Judaea they actually did.
A certain Cohen Gadol was called (in Greek transscription, which is where a nominative -s comes in) Kaiaphas, arguably _in Hebrew._ His father in law a few weeks after he had crucified Our Lord recognises another Cohen Gadol - the one named by Jesus - as "unlearned" because for his name he had answered _in Aramaic_ "Kephas" ....
6:30 When I commented on Alfred Einstein, I was wondering whether this was going to be brought up - yep. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski didn't miss that one.
Thought provoking discussion. One provoked thought that came up was the description of the Garden of Eden in relation to the world outside the Garden. +If anyone wants to listen to one expository on this from a secular perspective -- not atheist or anti-religion, but not doctrinal -- the linguist of the UA-cam channel Metatron goes over it. Personally I find it helpful to study these things from a secular perspective, because it's real, and worthy of study; and this forms the foundation for Faith, as opposed to fairy tale). It's been said that Adam and Eve always sang.
'Its been said that Adam and Eve always sang'
Ummm, you know Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden and the talking snake never existed...right?
You do know what a fairy tale is, right?
He would choose ancient Maronite chants
The Eastern Rites are very close to Synagogue worship. Mostly a choral tradition with almost no instruments. Maybe its my own German heritage I do have a soft spot for instrumental organ music.
Orgasmatron by Motorhead, Religion I and II by Public Image Limited.
1:42 Pharisees and Disciples would actually BOTH be the kind of background that now counts as middle class.
The Aristocrats in Jewish society would often enough have been Herodians.
(Some argue, Herodians were not just friendly with Herod, but in the case of Herod the Great backers of _his_ claim to Messianity ...).
Jesus was foster son of a carpenter, an entrepreneur in building. Four at least of his disciples were involved in fishing, also as entrepreneurs, not employees.
That's a somewhat different story, involving the politics known as Distributism in English and as Propriétisme in French, not totally unrelated to Crédit Social in Québec (the one in certain anglo-states was Antichristian, since pro-eugenics, that's another issue).
However, there actually was a kind of degree of dissimilarity of background, but it was more about region, Galilee means country bumpkins, who are perhaps less familiar with using Hebrew in the everyday discourse than Jews of Judaea, which is partly where Jesus had runins with Pharisees.
Either way, when singing the psalms, I'd say the Synagogue of Capharnaum like any Synagogue in Jerusalem would have sung the psalms in Hebrew and in a musical style going back to King David and getting on to both Gregorian and modern Synagogal (Alfred Einstein arguably overdid the extent to which ancient Synagogal was identic to modern Synagogal).
As for listening to Classical music, in Vienna some people go to a cheap Opera house and stand up (or sit on stairs) during the performance, I highly doubt this means they are aristocrats .... I suppose the thing is somewhat similar to the situation in Milan, but I have never lived there or even visited.
Another type of Aristocrats, Cohanim and Levites, certainly included one of the Twelve, St. Matthew, and probably, if Fr. Jean Colson was right, another disciple, the author of the Johannine corpus and the one to whom Our Lord confided His Mother.
Jesus seems like a Micheal Bolton guy.
Ummm, acktuchually, Jesus only likes the music of the one true church, Hillsong.
😂
I’d bet everything I have, to suggest, Jesus would most endorse what you experience at a Tuesday or Wednesday morning mass.
Perhaps, music with voice, only.
Don't bet everything you have on something like that, my guy. Lightmindedness.
Excellent
I think the most embarassing part is that most catholic worship music just falls flat even compared to some mainstream popular music.
11:33 It may be noted, popular music has increasingly been divorced from Church music since the Church hierarchy were getting annoyed with the Vaganten.
More and more of the cadences from psalmody and motets were being forbidden to these popular music performers, and therefore they were forced to look in another direction.
If you want any music made by non-Church-musicians that sound otherworldly, it is probable that _some_ Satanist rock actually comes closest to Church music.
I think Rammstein made one hit with some Satanist lyrics, anyway it exists, and I was a guest so could not quite escape the occasion, and the music is very close to Church music, except it is more violent.
Since hearing that, and recalling (perhaps wrongly) it was by Rammstein, I am officially not a fan of Rammstein ...
Peter K !!!
If we're talking about a form of music being new at one point, acapella vocalizations, like what you hear in Catholic and Orthodox chant, is something people have been doing for longer than recorded history, so no shot there. Even classical music has its roots in cultural musical forms from around Europe and the Mediterranean region going back hundreds, if not, in some cases, even thousands of years. Meanwhile, popular and commercial forms of music that are widespread today are, comparatively, a blip on a blip. They're barely even worth discussing in terms of music history.
Probably one that goes on about how the *KINGDOM 🫅* of Heaven is supposed to be a *KINGDOM 🫅,* as Christians ✝ seem to constantly forget the entire point of the New Testament.
Rephrase that in a way that makes even a little bit of sense please.
It does make sense, you are just so in denial a kingdom is a kingdom, calling it a kingdom seems wrong to you.
You are a perfect example of why if Jesus exists, he would despise virtually every Christian ✝ for being incapable of understanding basic concepts when told.
@@berwynsigns4115
We don’t know, but he certainly would have accepted any Mass celebrated devoutly in any licit right approved my His Church.
rite
You don’t like The Chosen but you’re fine with using Jonathan Roumie for your Jesus thumbnail 😂
Polka music
Rule Britannia, obviously!
Something happy. " holy' does not mean "slowly". Some of the Hillsong and Bethel songs are so dreary . One would think that modern music would be lively and happy and enjoyable. No they are not. I went to my granddaughter:s First Holy Communion last year and they had the youth group playing the music. I turned to my husband and whispered , "are we at a funeral?". But again, I do not mean happy- clappy, dancing in the aisles type of lively. I just mean something with TUNE and melody. We must rejoice that Jesus loves us and wants us to eventually be with Him in Heaven. Isn't that something to be happy about?
Why don't you ask him? Oh wait, he's invisible so you'll have to just try and infer it and argue with each other about it forever.
He would choose no music due to our fallen nature. All masses I attended, including tridentine with choirs with a bunch of solo performers competing with each other and with little practice as it shows when they vocalize at holy mass. The holy mass is to transport us to Calvary, where we need to be sorrowful or like the days of old in catacombs under persecution and bitter tears of penetance and repentance.
All dialog masses whether Novus Ordo or TLM sound like a fish market (very sorry to say that) where each one saying/singing the responses in the their own pace, volume, etc. Even kindergartners sound in unison when the say the Pledge of Allegiance.
All this competition means a lack of unity and the lack of humilty in the laity, including the choir.
When you sing you pray twice, but unfortunately most choirs these days are filled with women competing with each other, every silent moment is filled with out of synch singing or responses, under this situation, I prefer the quiet mass and leave the responses to the altar servers (Thank God for St. Thomas Aquinas, who says that for TLM the altar server responds on behalf of all Catholic people, however, for the NO mass it is each one to his/her own as these modern masses require laity to verbally participate. Yet another reason to go to TLM especially the quiet low mass version, so you can present your wretched sinful self to God.)
Summa Theologica - Part 3 - Question 83
Reply to Objection 12. Several persons ought to be present at the solemn celebration of the mass. Hence Pope Soter says (De Consecr., dist. 1): "It has also been ordained, that no priest is to presume to celebrate solemn mass, unless two others be present answering him, while he himself makes the third; because when he says in the plural, 'The Lord be with you,' and again in the Secrets, 'Pray ye for me,' it is most becoming that they should answer his greeting." Hence it is for the sake of greater solemnity that we find it decreed (De Consecr. dist. 1) that a bishop is to solemnize mass with several assistants. Nevertheless, in private masses it suffices to have one server, who takes the place of the whole Catholic people, on whose behalf he makes answer in the plural to the priest.
😂 we do try our best to sing in unison but to err is human and we have different ranges. Some of us drop out of the high notes so you don't hear us strain, but we may guess we can handle it if we're feeling good, you know? Most church choirs have 30 min before Mass to practice (aside from home alone) and we can't catch all potential problems. I encourage you to practice chant yourself at home with hymns and the Ordinary settings. If you are a man, ask your priest to announce a men's schola so you can elbow out us screeching women!
I don't think he'd say "wow they're not good at music so we just won't do music" but rather "wow we need to work on this music"
🇷🇺☦🤝✝️Brian, why did you put some random dude's photo referring to it as Jesus? Don't you think it's a little...a little Protestant?
I believe its the actor from the chosen. I don't believe Brian is anti-protestant.
@@loveandmercy9664 Actor? That's even worse. Depiction of Bible on screen is heretic. And if Brian isn't anti-Protestant, then that's exactly the problem lol
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxydepicting the Gospel on screen is not heretical at all.
@@danieljoyce6199 Oh is that so...? Then I am sorry to break it to you, friend, but you speak heresy. Exactly what is the Bible for you? An American novel? Some fantasy book? Depiction of Bible on screen is not only disgusting and shallow, but totally disrespectful and a mockery of the saints! Obviously, you are a Protestant, since the Bible to you is like Mark Twain or something. You have no red line and distinction between it, and everything else. Despicable...🤦
Rather than slipping in a "God help me" for being part of the music Ministry at your old novus ordo Parish
Maybe a "God help me" for all the instances of public detraction on the internet.
Haven't they taught you at tlm that detraction is a mortal sin?
You can only detract people; not the accidents of a Mass.
@@josephclark1431 👍 that's right. Good job!
You'll be able to pick up on it in a number of Brian's videos.
@@zwijac I've watched many. Maybe you can provide an example.
That's also a public detraction, you cannot get very far without making judgements on what things are better than other things, especially in a fallen world
Oh please. He said "God forgive me." I've said it many times for my part in leading others in the happy clappy "focus on ourselves over The Lord" in my past. I sincerely ask forgiveness. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.
Brian you should probably be thankful for the new Mass.
If there weren't two different forms of the mass, you'd literally have nothing to talk about. It's getting old.
Good luck👋
Except I made no reference to the old or new mass here... We were talking about sacred music in general. If it's getting old, it's strange that you brought it up when I didn't.
@@BrianHoldsworth 😂
.....posts a title under his video "which music would Jesus choose for Mass".
Begins the video discussing traditional versus new music and within the first minute laments previously being part of contemporary praise and worship (for maybe the 15th video).
Then.... "I made no reference to old or new Mass here" 😂
BTW amongst the three comments that this trailblazing video has gotten...... the other one is a man complimenting you and referencing the traditional mass as Superior because of the music.
Are you going to reply to him as well, to make sure you point out that you weren't talking about mass???
So when your guest brought up the type of music that Jesus would have heard in the temple, and then told you that it would have been much more akin to what we hear at the Latin Mass than anywhere else..... were you not paying attention at that moment?
Or is that somehow not talking about mass?
You forgot to interject and let him know that the topic isn't Mass.
... even though the title under the video is what music would Jesus choose for Mass.
@@BrianHoldsworthBrian when you mentioned in the video that the music in "breaking bread" is profane..... Since that was making no reference to mass, I'm wondering.... What is it making reference to? And where would one find a Breaking Bread book?
If it's "getting old," don't watch and move on. I go to the new mass, but I value Brian's commentary. If you don't, stop wasting your time with it. But you seem to have a bone to pick, so whatever turns your crank I guess.