Tramming Bar to Align our HAAS Vises!
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- Making a tramming bar to automatically space and align our four Orange Vises on our HAAS VM3
Diamond Pins: bit.ly/2pLVzee
Filmed with: amzn.to/2p01Hjf
DeWalt Fixture Plate: bit.ly/2cxkWNC
Music: Stalling - Topher Mohr and Alex Elena • Stalling - Topher Mohr... 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH
You should start using cutter comp. in your programs and dia. wear in your tool table.
So much faster that tweeking a program.
Always fun to watch your videos...thanks for sharing.
Such a cool tool. I like how Jared moved them all together at 12:12
John, been listening to you and JohnG's podcast and it's got me thinking lean. Get yourself a tape measure that has the self-centering marks and keep it at your machine. You make one measurement and directly read the center, no math, no mistakes. Lufkin makes one, I'm sure there are others.
note that the 2nd 2in dimension you added at the start had brackets around it, that indicates that the dimension is overdefining, and driven by other constraints [in this case the 1st 2in dimension, and overall length of the bar] you'd need to relieve one of the earlier constraints to make that 2nd 2in dimension actually be a driving constraint. [in this case the overall length is probably what you'd want]
That was his plan but as it was equal to the other and it was a one-off he didn't do anything with it.
indeed, not critical in this case... just wanted to point it out, as it could be a gotcha in other designs [or for others following along]
It won't be a gotcha. It doesn't allow you to enter a value that is different from the driven constraint.
Neat project, as everyone else has suggested you really should start using cutter comp in all your programs it makes life so much easier
John, what a nice way to save some time and make tramming multiple items easy! I will be at the Bash in June, looking forward to meeting you! Keep up the great work!
Looks like a great time-saver, John. I went the other way and am using locating pins in the vise itself and locating that to the fixture plates you made. I'm within a few tenths on swap out...
Best wishes and see you very soon!
Tom Z
simple tool, but very helpful! I think, thats one of my next projects for my mill... Thanks for sharing!
Great video! I have messed around with doing this on the Haas VF-2 table with marginal success. I like your approach!
Using variables will make your drawings not just more maintainable but more readable. They act to document why something has the value it does: being able to read that something is 2.25” because it is BarWidth+2*CutoutKerf explains the logic of the business asset you are creating. The biggest scaling challenge you will see in the next phase of your company is transmitting knowledge and culture from the people devising these systems to the people who show up after their creation.
I made some of those for my vises too - works well!
Always love watching your video's John they are always educational. I was just wondering is there a reason you don't use cutter comp in your programs because it would be so much simpler to adjust bore sizes if you don't have to go back to the computer and post the code again to simply change the size of each hole.
He doesn't have to change the size of each hole in CAD!
All he has to do is select the boring operation, and adjust his axial "stock to leave".
It's way faster, in this instance...
Thanks for all your videos. As a suggestion: when you are trying to teach, its a good idea the let your audience know the goal and its purpose right at the start. Show them the problem, then show the solution, the go into how to get there. Otherwise people will be distracted from the start, by basic questions like: What is a tram? What is it purpose?
you can do bore from the drill function. lets you select same dia.
John, Why don't you make a sub plate and mount all the vises all to it? Put some keys on the bottom to position it on the table. Put it on bolt it down your done. That will line them up the same in X and Y. Than you can save some external fixture offsets for that pallet of vises and jobs.
good work, also your video quality and skills improve with every upload. greets from Germany
Great Video John!! Go ahead!
Wish we had something like McMaster-Carr in Norway.
I'm more familiar with solidworks than fusion 360, but couldn't you make the projected holes from the vice construction geometry and put a circle around then. Try not to work with anchored constraints, their a pain in the ass if you want to redo something.
As a matter of interest I have seen Orange vices listed for $5,000 in New Zealand - that would be about $USD 3,500
Hey John, taper pins are fast and accurate. But, whatever works for ya.
While diamond pins are easier to install, they will really only locate properly along a single axis. You could try doing a full pin and diamond pin for each vise. Full pin would accurately locate the vises in relation to eachother in X and Y while the diamond pin, properly oriented, would properly align the vises parallel to each other. At least thats my theory. Likely overkill for this use.
Which axis? ;)
Wrenchmonkey it really depends on the orientation of the diamond pin.
Why would that be? ;)
Wrenchmonkey diamond locating pins are relieved to prevent binding. As such, they only locate along a single axis. If you require a more in depth explaination, a simple google search will yield all the answers.
aww man, I had such high hopes for you... thought I saw the wheels turning for a minute; and maybe they were, but as Churchill said, "Men will occasionally stumble upon the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry along as though nothing happened..." 😉
Have you considered using the ball couplers with subplates from orange? Not cheap, but would probably be worth the cost. It's a setup I'm considering investing in myself.
Are you going to put some dowel holes in the bed eventually? I've put some along the back edge of my mill at work for some big jig plates we have, and I plan on putting some in for my Orange vise soon.
And why did not you cut the thread directly on the VM3, why this double work?
Why don't you use wear offsets. It is so impractical to run back to a computer and change the program. You are the only machinist I've ever seen do that.
True that, set your tool comp to wear and just play with the values in your machine. Same program can be used on multiple machines with multiple tools too. Probably a byproduct of using tormach machines forever.
Doesn't PathPilot have tool wear/cutter compensation though? I remember John using it in PathPilot to walk in a snug fit on the thin part machining vacuum fixture he made. It's probably the way he's just used to doing this kind of work like you said but I don't think the Tormach machines are at fault since they should be capable of using cutter compensation.
Doesn't somebody tell him that every time he does this?
I think he was irritated that there were not two columns, one nominal size and one actual wear offset.
Motorman0297 another machinist here who does it too.
Rather than breaking the link on your hole centers, you should have changed them to construction lines and built your new diameters around them. Just a thought
How accurate was it? Only a few thou?
Either way its a good idea and makes removing and installing easier for anyone
You can just clamp a long bar in all the vises and get that close without doing any work.
If he does this often, then why don't he mount the vices to a plate and then and then dowel the plate to the table. makes setups go a lot easier. I ran a VMC that had 5 double Kurt vices that were mounted this way.
smart well made tool. john hope you read in the next year lol is there a way to make detachable rail's for a lathe as the bed is broken on the one i have.it's a small 9x20 lathe and i have a piece of i beam that that can replace the main body of bed but the railing has got me stop might be fun project :)
Hey I'm an engineer with a machine shop on the west coast, I see what you are doing here and I got to ask. Have you taken any pointers from Gary V? You are smart, and also running his playbook.
Is aluminium dimensionally stable over the long, or even medium, term?
Hey John, which drillingmachine are you using in minute 11:50? Greetings from Austria ;-)
Sorry for the late reply! It's a tapping machine from a company called Flexarm. The arm is a linkage that keeps the tool perpendicular to the table while you tap the holes. It also has a fancy clutch system to help prevent broken taps and a fast reverse.
Why not tapping on the CNC? Didn't you have the option of rigid tapping?
Not a good idea to beat on the parts in the vise in this situation. might bow the part and your pin holes will be angled after releasing from the vise. I also would also have milled the top surface of the stock flat to ensure the pin perpendicularity. Just my .02 every one has different schools of thought .
Yea that's what I was wondering. Might have been better to clamp the bar to the table to avoid putting holes in stressed material. I was also wondering about the accuracy of the pressed pins, but I can imagine that it is probably negligible, and likely going to be more of an angular error than a radial error.
Is there a reason you always use orthographic view?
I find perspective much nicer to look at
I find Perspective annoying. The shape of the part is always changing. Orthographic is meant for a raw image that has a stable appearance regardless of what angle you're looking at. Perspective might be good for a Rendered Display of an exploded Assembly file though, I think.
In real life Perspective is always there, but the rate that software puts the Perspective is exaggerated in my opinion. Things look out of proportion to me. Unless there's a "softening" setting somewhere that I don't know about.
I would like to know the best way or which one to use in fusion to get it use offset I have problem getting offset to work
what do you think is the best way for a person who works full time and supports a family, to learn CNC as a possible career change?
surviveonadime Watch machining on UA-cam religiously, download Fusion 360. The barrier of entry has never been easier.
Im learning fusion 360 now for 3d printing, I just don't know anything about the can aspect of it
why using Aluminium? steel does expand and contract much less than aluminium at different temperatures
Any reason you didn't tap those holes in the machine?
john, I'm hoping to get your opinion on something that if i remember correctly you did years ago when you were in the apartment and was using the dinosaur know as a micromark 7x14..which is what i have,..i think you added the LMS extended cross slide to your micro mark..I'm thinking of adding it to mine and wanted to check other ppl's reviews first before i waste money i cant afford to lose..problem is i cant find any one that has done it..if you did add it to yours and dont mind can you tell me how it worked out..did it infact add an inch of travel...
thanks man...been watching ya a while .
Is that tootlchanger new? never seen that here...
That's his new VM3
Thats pretty cool :)
Man, I was drilling 90 holes the other day. Select same diameter choked on it and I had to do it manually. I was disappointed.
Pretty sure those vises are metallic, not orange ;-p
Doesn't he clamp oranges in these vises?
Now that's a video idea! Does the orange vise actually work for its intended purpose, clamping oranges?
They're intended to be used for holding pumpkins for carving...
what is the part with the red light at 8:56?
Its looking for the probes light to change color to indicate that the probe has touched the part, which then tells the machine to input that cordinate minus or plus the radius of the ruby tip to set the work offset.
Hellô!! i from brazil! subscriber!!!
make a bigger Arbor press, project time...
I may as well join in on this dead horse. - Dude, use cutter comp. :P
I would like for you to make a video on just cutter comp alone, and of your course, your rebuttal on what situations does it make sense to have cutter comp for the program at the machine, and when it's better to not have cutter comp, and thus leaving any edits to Software.
One clue that can mean a program change oppose to D-values, is if the *same edit* is being done each time, whenever the program is being done. But if that edit is going back and forth over the 'perfect' Nominal. Then no amount program changes will fix it. have a D-Value. Leave it to the Operator. Because...Operators don't have easy access to the program to make changes. If you had 20 machines in that shop. I don't think you would want a computer by each one do you? Or 10-20 people coming at you for edits every day. lol!
Cheers. Still a great channel though. And it's nice that the bar works. I was thinking that, that thin long bar would be moving everywhere.
SANDVIK Swedish quality 😊
why cant ya just put keys in botoom of vises,keyit in the table slots,key into t-slots,1/4 20 socket head cap screws would hold keys, HBM I ran we put keys in bottom of angle plates,on off on off always within .001 in 60 inches,close enough for a boring mill
DEVEIGH JIG MILL SAME THING,it hade a 72 inch table
I use stop blocks and keys all the time and find they are very repeatable and within .001 or less unless you get a chip or something in there messing it up, but if it is clean it repeats. It is a HUGE time saver in setups.
yes,must be clean,i guess I'm anal,angle plates for boring mill I operated were 6ft tall,had and R on one and an L on the other,always on table or turn table right on right side and left on left side,sounds anal but that's way the old school guy taught me
How are you not using cutter comp? Reposting a program to get the part to size is a waste of time, impractical, and just not very smart when you have a CNC machine. Go to your offsets page, add .0005 to wear and re run the program and its done. Your the only machinist I have ever seen running a CNC do it your way.
So... Change wear offsets, search the code for that operation, run it from there, re-check, and then remember to change the wear offset for that tool again (or even worse, re-run the whole program)...
As opposed to just taking 10 second to go into Fusion, change the stock to leave, repost, and rerun that single operation?
k.
You do you, I guess, but, seriously, fuck that noise...
You are obviously not a machinist and don't work in a production environment, or you run a tormach or a DIY machine. What if you have a part you run all the time, and you have regound tools, or tools in the shop that vary from there nominal size. You will have to save a program for every diameter of cutter you have in the shop. I could run a program with a 3/8 enmdill one day, and then use a 1/2 endmill the next running the same program after only changing the cutter comp. Your way is the wrong way to do it, and all of the machine tool industry would agree with me. So keep doing it wrong, as long as it works for you.
frist?