The Problem With Using Amp Sim Plugins
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
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As amazing as modern-day amp sims are, they can do more harm than good if you're not careful.
In this video, I share some of the most common traps that self-recording guitar players get held up on when using amp sims in a home recording.
I want you to save time (and money) and to get right to producing the results that you want and this video will help keep you on track towards your goals.
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That's why I love the Bogren one knob amp plug-ins.... Set the gain not too high and that's it. The standard IR sounds cool and the guitar players are not confused with too many options. And then they send me the export so I don't need to buy them, and my processor is all chill 😅
Option paralysis is real! I currently have one amp sim for hi-gain stuff, one for leads/crunch/edge of breakup/cleans and one for bass. Being able to breathe and get shit done feels amazing!
I wholeheartedly concur that it appears as though we are essentially receiving identical products to those of a decade ago, albeit presented in updated packaging. Frequently, it seems as though we are encountering the same fundamental sound of distortions but with varying impulse responses, rendering it exceedingly challenging in the end to select something suitable for our specific production requirements. This phenomenon extends to bass amp simulations, wherein we recurrently traverse a familiar path characterized by heavily distorted high frequencies, scooped midranges, and compressed low frequencies. It resembles the continual reiteration of the same guitar signal chains featuring tube screamers and 5150s that have persisted for quite some time. While advancements have undeniably occurred since the era of Pod Farm, and there is now access to a plethora of intriguing sound effects, the essence of distortion remains largely unchanged since that time, albeit marginally refined and less prone to high-frequency artifacts.
What I would like to witness henceforth are plugins that genuinely challenge contemporary sound norms, perhaps endeavoring to replicate the sonic aesthetics of yesteryears, such as the endeavors undertaken by Ugritone. Alternatively, it would be commendable if someone succeeded in creating a distortion effect that is markedly distinctive, accompanied by streamlined user interfaces. Aurora DSP exhibits promise in this regard with their minimalist interfaces, which compel users to sculpt their guitar tones through attentive listening, rather than becoming ensnared by the elaborate interfaces and ornate controls of traditional amp heads.
I am hopeful that in the future, we will encounter more distinctive amp simulations that forge their own sonic identity, rather than adhering to the replication of established sound paradigms that have persisted since 2012.
Otto Audio 11 11 11 is by far and away the best amp Sim I've ever used, I like it so much better than any of the neural DSP stuff
My guitar sound is getting worse than 10 years ago when I was still recording with the ZOOM G3. Also, my current mix sounds worse than those old demos mixed with no EQ or compression, just fader leveling. I'm overcomplicating everything...
Try minimalist approach, this has created some of the best and most successful albums in the history of modern production...
-Pick 1 (basic) eq, compressor, and so on to use.
-Don't make ANY big changes using them.
-Limit yourself to 1 (or 2 if bass+guitar) amps (real or sim) and 1 or 2 microphones (if 2, use 1 dynamic and 1 condenser).
See how some demos come out after trying that...
Also like 60-80% of a good mix is really just making sure the instruments are tuned and no extra notes/strings (esp on bass) aren't ringing and causing conflicts. And ofc write a *good* song and play it _well._
Levels are 80% of everything... I think people have forgotten that "EQ" stands for equalization... that is to say: "make everything equal in volume across the spectrum to make everything able to be heard". That's the only real goal, easy to lose sight of smothered with social media.
@@electricmeatpuppetI agree, but what about panning?
@@billsimpson1085 Levels are 80% of EVERYTHING. 80/20 rule always. Panning is a tiny % comparatively. It's important, but not any where near as much as maybe everything else. Consider mono is a very common playback method. Also when most panning is simply LCR.
I miss the days of having one amp, two cabs, and three mics too choose from. The best guitar tone I ever got was with a 50 watt combo a dynamic and a ribbon mic. I can’t make that much noise anymore cause kids and stuff. Having amp sims and decent headphones has allowed me to start making more music no one will ever hear ;)
I got a steal on some IK software but like he talked about it is sooooo cpu intensive. Amplitube looks cool but I’d rather it used less cpu and had a much more simplified interface.
I started this video totally disagreeing with you and walked out on your team.
This is why I like the Neural plug-ins. Good sounding presets, which means I don't have to worry about tweaking every little thing, and while some of them (esp with complex reverbs) use up a lot of CPU, my computer can handle it. Option paralysis is why I never could get into Bias.
If you load project in reaper with routed superior drummer 3 bias fx's on every guitar tracks using quad tracking (obviously) and bass amp with bass vst you can clearly see death of your pc and ram only if it has not already caught fire
Good that there's freeze and render options there to help you
well then your pc is old my guy. time to upgrade. I have multiple instances of Mixwave and Podfarm running aswell as multiple synths, drum vst TWICE, multiple pitchshifters reverb channels and my system runs fine. I can even hook up my guitar to my mixwave ampsim IN DAW with no latency in the same project.
ryzen 7 5800x
32gb ram
SSD
thats all you need.
My PC can handle this easily.
Update your hardware.
I asked before about the bass tone in your intro and you made a video about it too. Still loving it.
Bang on. In the old days, I had a Boss OD 1 (Still got it), I could dial in the eq from the amp and just do it. Not so long ago I had two Guitar FX multiprocessors (Boss Me50 and Korg A5) even with the variety of sounds they offered, I usually stuck with a few from each that I liked, and maybe a few specialised FX for certain projects. Lately, I use amp sim plugins and can spend so much time chasing the sounds (too much choice), and wasting time testing the sounds. Sometimes I'll find a sound which actually inspires a new idea.
My first "real" amp was a Boss Katana mkII, 100 watt a few years back (I'm still relatively new to guitar). I kept it for a while, but I could never get a tone that I liked out of it, despite messing around with it often. I dropped it in exchange for the Neural DSP plugins. Even though I LOVED the sound of the plugins, there was something that always sounded off to me about it. I eventually settled on an Axe FM9 last year, and honestly I'm in love with it.
I agree with your point in saying that players get wrapped up in rabbit holes and tone-chasing, because I certainly did. The Axe FX is, IMO, one of the end products for digital guitar amp sims, but even then, I can't fully recommend it to someone starting out with playing guitar. There's a wealth of sounds and things you can do with that hardware, but that can also be a con to someone who gets overwhelmed easy or doesn't have ADHD and a ton of time on their hands, lol
I use Audio Assault Amp Locker/ReAmp 2. I specifically use my own presets that use models of gear I already own, or that the client owns or is planning to own. I use IR's I captured myself of cabs, speakers, and mics I own using Audio Assault's aIR toolkit, or of clients cabs that I mic up and reamp or capture IR's of using a PA head. Otherwise, I just reamp my DI's through actual pedals and amps for the main tone, and just use the IR's, or I'll record the reamp without moving the mics so everything is phase aligned. I'll then use ReAmp 2 for dual or quad tracking layers, or leads/solos, or use the pedalboard as outboard and then feed that through the sims. I like Audio Assault stuff because it runs on Linux, even though I almost never do actual production in Linux, with the exception of mixing stems with all the effects rendered and printed from Reaper in Windows, because I like mixing in Harrison Mixbus, and I use my laptop for mixing, which has Linux installed. Mixbus runs native, so... 🤷♂
Amp sims are usually CPU heavy, because of upsampling. If you record something at 48kHz, then amp sim will internally upsample each buffer block at least by factor of 4 to 192kHz (i think Amplitube does upsampling by 8). Then it processes the signal block and downsamples back to 48kHz. I think that's the main reason.
I only use one amp sim, neural gojira x... I found/adjusted my 2 favorite presets, one heavier, one lighter, and I print both on the same tracks before mixing, and then I blend in the mix for a unique sound (2 left guitar tracks of the one take I recorded for the left, 2 right guitar tracks, total of 4 guitar tracks from the 2 takes recorded.
In the mix, I will turn down the volume a bit on the heavier amp in song parts that call for lighter guitar sound.
Sounds fkn awesome 😎
All good and valid points. I have a few great sounding and simple amp sims that I use for everything. I always print my guitar tracks - not so much to save on CPU, but to remove clutter and also to commit and move on. No going back and "re-tweaking".
You are correct in my opinion. I have been fighting with Amplitube for about 15 years or so and it never sounds much better than my Pod 2.0. In the end I have built a 6.5" speaker cab, bought a Tweed Princeton clone and a ribbon mic, and it is ten times better at sensible home volume.
Agree on every issue, thanks Bobby.
Moving the microphone is HUGE help i dont barely use eq anymore you can move the microphone while mixing and get great stereo seperation by fixing phase issues and make the guitar fit in the mix
Yes! Print them motherfrick'n gtr tracks! Amp sims have always been behind the curve. We use BTS Katana in-studio and just wish we could send a 100w head to every guitarist or producer.
Right there with you, great concise video. I use two different Softube sims, modelling a couple classic Marshall amps, for almost all of my productions. I rarely even fiddle with the in-plugin settings, unless im hitting a problem down the road that I feel my sim settings could address (which is great to be able to do, by the way). I recently downloaded a popular free amp sim only because my "Marshalls" simply COULD NOT get the type of tone I needed.
In general, it is easy to get a nagging feeling that your music would sound better if you simply went and found the "right" plugin. But its easy to then spend too much time shopping, and ultimately going in circles with the same problems, because your issue was never a plugin problem. It's an utter trap. I think you have to focus on trying to go as far as you can with what you have. It takes a long time to build a solid skillset with all the fundamentals down, so trust in your own likely-foolishness, and keep learning.
If you need some new plugin, it should ideally be because you've learned exactly what you're doing, what the solution is, and that /nothing/ you already have can solve it. Not because you're nervous that the plugins you're already using just... aren't good enough... for some reason...
Nothing compares to a great tube amp with a mic on it. That's all I want or need.
I agree with most of what you said. However, regarding the terrible presets (2:48 mark), my experience has been different. I found that the Neural DSP Archetype Nolly and Archetype Petrucci plugins have great rhythm guitar presets. It helps that Neural DSP was smart enough to have the actual artists themselves dial in their own presets for everyone to use. In my opinion, the "Blood Eagle" preset in the Archetype Nolly sounds exactly like the tone Periphery used on the album. It sounds excellent!
excellent points, currently using your IRs they work great audio assaults Paevey amp. Also got your merch and sportin it all the way over here in TEXAS!!!!
I think you have some very valid points. Especially the presets, I haven't come across a useable preset yet.
I own 5 ampsims, but I only use 3 of the and each for a specific thing:
Rhythm - STL Tonality: Lasse Lammert (That Driftwood just tickles me the right way)
Lead - Borggren MLC 100 (it works really well in the low mids giving some warmth to the leads)
Ambience/Cleans - Neural DSP Abasi (though not their best product, it does have some cool tools for ambient guitars, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy it)
The Abasi one is the only one I, kinda, use a preset for. It has this weird preset "Ethereal Sunshine" or what ever the name is and I really like it, but I do use my own IR for it.
I've tried one of the neural amp sims (fortin namless, I think, or a similar one) and I was shocked by the amount of CPU power this thing used. Not worth it (for me).
STL is very cpu light
So... most problems are not the amp sims but the users of them....?
How do I get the tse X50? I cant find a way to buy it on their website
I remember when Neural DSP first came around, their plugins were so CPU hungry on my computer at the time. Even having it on normal or low oversampling, it was still a lot. So I would have to get my tones first and then render it out to save CPU usage. Eventually my old computer broke down and I built a new one. My new one can hold so much more now. Depending on the band, I use amp sims for tracking and figure out the tone later or try to hit something similar that we tracked with. The only time I use purely amp sims are for bass. Even then, it's either a sansamp or darkglass plugin.
If I don't use the Audio Assault plugin I mentioned in my other comment, I honestly just use freeware plugins, and almost always the same ones - Analog Obsession JAMP/PEDALz, Mercuriall Ampbox (just for the Metal Zone, TS9, Big Muff, etc pedal sims), Ignite TPA-1, Black Rooster Cypress TT-15, Audiority Dr. Drive/L12X, VTarAmps JesseM x100, NaLex Amplex, and Buzz Helvetes Metal HM-2. Sometimes, I use NAM or Aida-X to load Orange Rocklerverb, JCM800 or Plexi models, or models of chainsaw pedals but only rarely. I have the Nick Crow 8505, the TSE X-50 amp you mentioned, and some amps from LePou, and generally I try to limit my amp sims to others I actively like and use from those same developers, though I have a few exceptions.
I found that most amp sims were meh. I use NAM with an ENGL Blackmore model and it's unreal, I'll probably never move on from it. Perfect amount of gain and super clear.
I use my Orange amp and line out with an Orange 4x12 impulse that's all I need. Maybe change a cab for a 2nd or 3rd guitar track but all the gain comes from a real amp
Bro. you by now know your words are describing my exact feeling about GEARRR. To the metal and music in general producers community: lets get to the songwriting, lets come up with great jams, weather its on a cajon and nylon strings guitar or a full blown production at a big name studio in LA. let us pour our hearts into our art. Bobby you areTHA MAN. thank you so much as always God Bless , Much love from your boy Shai down in San Diego California. 🙏❤
Best amp sim I've tried so far is Bogren's Ampknob (there are a few). It's literally just a gain knob (that I leave in the stock position) and the tone is amazing, without doing anything or tinkering with any buttons. To someone who struggled with presets and getting a good sound from some other ones, this was the holy grail for my mixes.
The only guitar sim. Use is the UAD Engl Savage 120. Works a treat, BUT I really still prefer mixing up my Marshall. Use the IK Multimedia Ampeg suit & that is spot on, but otherwise I see no need for more.
Been watching your videos for a while and dig them. Can you explain why it’s called Frightbox? Missed that
My main issue with amp sims (or maybe the IRs ) is they sound super dry and direct. I've found myself adding a very subtle amount of convolution reverb for a hint of room sound. Although I'm going for more raw, punk, sludgy old school death metal inspired stuff. Basically just making shitty demos myself lol. I can't usually crank my real amps so i had to find a way to make amp sims less dry and sterile sounding. It doesn't sound pro at all it sounds pretty bad objectively but i have fun with it
I’ve been working with my band’s album and started with a specific plugin for guitar, in the course of a year i’ve changed guitar tones and plugins like 10 times, now i’m back to the original plugin I started with 😂
YES MAN!! this is the same thing i've teeling all my mates, ampsims are just overhyped.
I love amp sims but agreed with the cpu hungry thing
In my next project I'm gonna go for a different approach that Jordan Valeriote recommended. I'm gonna choose the (almost) perfect guitar tone during tracking instead of using whatever and see what guitar tone I choose afterwards. I'll will consolidate the track and stick to it. Let's see how it goes!
the guitar player in my band drove me borderline insane by obessing over his tone and dialing in everything possible within his helix.... i kept telling him: just.record.your.tracks.
Option overload is definitely a problem. I find the default setting on most amp Sims to be fine. I might adjust it a little bit. Really the only thing that needs to be done to an amp sim, is just a high and low pass.
Bogren Ampknob. Simple sim. Sounds great and it just works. I use it when I’m tracking. If I want to use something different, I’ll just reamp later and print.
Just installed it to take part in their competition. Still not sure what to think about it.
As you know I've tested plenty of amp sims. some good some bad some ugly but in my own productions I tend to only use 3 or 4 and a couple of others if I'm after a certain tone for a certain genre
I dont use them anymore but the main thing is, use amp sims like they are a real amp. Get a good tone and render it like you recieved it that way and never go back.
I was ready to come here and fight! But no... You make great points. I record with them exclusively and I love them. However, It does require spending the time to explore and get what you need out of them. I really like matching the amp sim with a great IRs. I make my own specific preset of amp/ir and resuse them all the time.
Correct Me if I'm wrong but aren't Amp sims just desertion devices?
Love the beard
Modern technology really gave the tone enthusiasts an unlimited supply of tweaking options haha. I guess I'm lucky I've never been that obsessed with tone. I always try to aim for "good enough" when it comes to guitar tone. Distorted guitar tone is inherently a broken signal, so what's "good" is pretty relative.
What's your interface gain set at when you record? Apparently, amp sims are most accurate representations at zero gain on the interface.
Yeah, turning up the input on your interface acts like turning up the gain on your amp sim, except there's now more chance of input clipping
I've found I get the best sound with my interface at 0
It doesn't matter where your gain is set as long as you don't clip on the way in. You can always set the signal hotter (or quieter) before the amp sim in your DAW. This whole thing is just the latest trend that people are needlessly obsessing over.
I fear not the man who has a thousand amp sims but the one who has used the same amp sim a thousand times - Bruce Lee ,probably said, kind of , okay not really , but its works, kind of.
My DAW has been crashing lately and taking a lot of time loading projects. Time to print those tones and close the plugins.
eh, they don't use THAT much cpu i mean unless you are tying to run 96k 5ms latency stuff. I'm fine with 128 44k whatever. running the latest bias stuff 7ms latency on a mac pro from like 15 years ago. the plugin uses maybe half the single thread which is fine. on a newer windows machine it uses like 20 percent of a single core. Ryzen 7 something so nah i don't think they use that much never been an issue for me. Kontakt plugins though like omnisphere will make your cpus throw up.
everything else you said i pretty much agree with. however bias has updated their software with their new "high definition" amps which do, imo, sound better than their decade old stuff. also the hendrix stuff from them i find sound different than other amp sims i've heard. i agree with you 100 percent about the anxiety and options. i got stuck trying to find the best of the best so went from one amp sim to another. then i got a gig so i had to buy a foot pedal or real amps i decided to go with gt1000 boss... so after spending hundreds on amp sims i could have just used the boss lol its a loop for then... then sweet water convinced me to buy a sono and that shit has two notes which is amp/ cabinet modeling .. so now i have all this crap and i feel bad if i don't use it all..
100 percent agree with you on most presets... i see something like "little winger dinger" right you know those presets that can't use actually names because of copyright or some shit so they have to change the word slightly.. then you click on it expecting to get that amazing SRV tone and it sounds like absolute garbage lol
also makes a difference in headphones vs main speakers which almost defeats the purpose of going in the box. i can't record a tube amp in my current living condition so i have to do headphones but headphones mostly sound like garbage when it comes to amps. like you need to hear that open space even though cabinets models speaker emulators / room emulators are suppose to give you that sense but it is never the same.
Audio assault got cool amp sim and they use low cpu that's why i like them
just downloaded a APRIL FOOLS amp called "Liver6" and it literally has one knob that actually seems to do so much but does nothing except control the gain
i also have the DC30 vst with a old chorus and a treble booster sim to get me some brian may sounds, no amplitube needed!!
Amp sims got us nowhere...
-Too many settings/options
-Terrible presets
Like said in video...
-But also inconsistent quality and volume output between amps/cabs in 'collection' vsts.
-Also also the plugins that need a clipped/boosted input to have enough gain (for some amps that just don't have as much gain in the simulation as real life).
*Ended up buying a nice set of bass + guitar amps* from Fender (each amp's price probably equalling the money spent on amp vsts 😤)
(with that all said having to rerecord due to a tone change is an absolute pain vs just re-amping when already mixing!)
I ended up just using ez mix and ez drummer for everything. Not too bad on CPU and easy to use for home hobbyists with limited time. I wasted a lot of money and time on plugins for no benefit to my hobby.
I use Classic Drive for distortion or Clean Echoes for clean in Logic. That is it for 99% of the time. If my playing sucks or my song sucks, ain't nothing I can do to improve that.
i used to use the tse x30 for years
Low CPU usage is my #2 criterion for choosing an amp sim. #1 is it shouldn't sound like complete shit. The IR is 90% for guitar tone.
I just did a demo and instead of a plugin I used my HX Stomp from my live rig. Best guitar tone I've recorded in months. It was so simple, that I could spend way more time actually writing and recording riffs. And no CPU usage or latency at all, because I could use direct monitoring.
I use ampsims for composing music and recording guitar tracks before I reamp them through the tube amp. Just a tool, not for the finished product
What about latency!! Even with low values try to multi track high speed thrash death metal, absolute shitty situation!
Some work, some don't. All about taste and preference.
I just use Neural DSP Fortin Cali suite on everything with stock settings bar two sm57s in the cab section
never fails
The truth about amp sims always hurts! Nice Review...
Hey Bobby! Another great video. People get caught up in FOMO for the latest new thing. For heavy guitars, the differences are marginal. Stop sniffing corks and start making tracks!
this is somewhat true, but the mike stringer amp sim is absolutely worth it.
Isn’t it crazy that people are now finally realizing the IR matters more than the amp sim? Almost like the better amp/cab argument has been prepping us for this
Unfortunately, not enough people realize this just yet.
Definitely too much choice in amp sims and operation paralysis and I have a load of them
Does anybody still mic up amps? I always found amp sims to sound pretty bad. I can never get the same vibe when I’m playing through them and also they always sound fake compared to the real thing
I never even use the plugins IRs that come with them.
the first point is answered easily by DRM. thats why cracked versions of plugins run better. Its usually the whole ilok bloatware that ruins performance.
I disagree that the sims sound the same for a decade. The Neural DSP made a big jump and there are quite a few on NAM that are even better. The IR makes the most difference tho.
The analysis paralysis also depends on how you use it and in my opinion why the Neural DSP are so popular. They are easy to make sound good.
Agreed. I love Bobby's content and agree with some of the points he's making but I feel he's going a bit hyperbole with this.
Certainly a point can be made that one doesn't NEED a premium amp sim/sims in his arsenal but to imply that the only good thing that has changed with them is more features and nicer interface is kind of absurd and an over exaggeration in my opinion.
A free amp sim and a great IR sounds just as good as a real amp and this has been the case for well over a decade.
A great tube amp that's well captured is the benchmark and sims have been able to replicate this for a long time now. Unless you think newer amp sims sound BETTER than real amps, the only real improvements are more features, better presets and more usable IR's.
@@FrightboxRecording The old LePou / Poulain sims sound killer with a decent IR. Also, one time I tried to duplicate the intro to AC DC Hard As A Rock and A/B it with the original track. Closest sim was the ancient 32bit Simulanalog 900
@@FrightboxRecording In my opinion the newer amp sims sound a lot better in the highs than the old ones. No the new ones don't sound better than real amps, but they sound better than the amp sims of a decade prior.
@@FrightboxRecording that doesn't mean that there aren't any good amp sims from a decade ago, or that free amp sims are bad. But the quality is much better today
main sims I use are compression, the rest are all outboard gear and authentic recordings.
Wow I want to hear your songs
@@BukanIbuMu no songs as of late. All background music for videos. Or streaming. Got a whole channel dedicated to music and gear.
so many bells and whistle and at the end 90% sound exactly the same anyway
Wait until you realize changing real amps doesn't change the sound either
I can tell you why amp sims are a pain: I can't use them... nor can I use a real amp to dial in tones! Just a baddy all round boys
That's why I don't like model amp. You spend too much time messing with stuff instead of playing.
I can agree with your points on ampsims although I like the fact I can record sounds I could not afford before but... You got a lot to learn about beers.
1. Don't buy cans, they taste like s...
2. Buy some good ones...
I disagree and find your reasoning illogical. Your argument is that you hate amp sims because there are too many of them, some people get option paralysis, and that they use too much processing power. The first two reasons have to do with the temperment of the individual, not the tool(s). As for CPU constraints- just buy a powerful enough laptop. It will cost much less than a tube amp, cab, attenuater, microphone, and mic preamp. I have a $ 600 laptop that lets me process like 20 different iterations of amp sims at once in Reaper. Joe Satriani records albums with amp sims. Metallica uses AXE-FX. Megadeth uses Quad Cortex.
Well said!
Or you can commit to a tone and just print it. CPU solved
So what you basically said is the problem with amp sims is user error and option paralysis.