We Need To Talk About Amp Plugins (theres a problem)
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- Опубліковано 14 січ 2024
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A few weeks ago, I was on a new years live stream with @Johnnathancordy and he brought up something that I hadn't heard before regarding amp plugins, so in today's stream we're going to figure out how I've been using plugins incorrectly and how to fix it
Check out John Cordy's video on the subject here:
• The PROBLEM with Plugi...
And shoutout to Ed S for putting in the leg work to figure all this out
• How to set the optimal...
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Thanks for the shoutout and glad the info is proving useful! Really awesome to see how many people say they’re finally getting the tones they were expecting with plugins.
Great job at explaining the topic in an understandable way, and also excellent tones. I hadn’t tried the Tone King but the real amp and plugin both sound wonderful.
Amazing job getting all those gain stages in a database. I've been loving amp sims for a few years since I realised that lower input gain gives me much better tones, and it's fun to play with how that works, even outside of how the amp is supposed to sound. I think I probably set mine lower than it's supposed to be (especially if I'm stacking guitar tracks), with the guitar volume also backed off more than I might in a live setting and really enjoy the way the virtual amp responds to that.
Appreciate you helping people learn to get better tones, but I’m kind of curious what is the need for the database? Wouldn’t it be simpler to just focus on the level that you’re hitting the amp sim plug-in at? If that should be a guitar signal that peaks at, say, -13dbfs then it doesn’t really matter what level your preamp was set to you can just use a utility plug-in or the input knob on the neural dsp plug-in to lower it back down.
@@Danny-jv3xo if you know the exact amount to back down in, yeah you can do it that way. Most interfaces with gain at 0 produce a signal that is a good level already, and it’s easy to get back to that same point without having to remeasured or recalibrate. The specs usually provide the information with gain at 0, and if it’s roughly 12dBu it’s hot enough that humbuckers will be close to clipping
Good work, Ed! Impedance Matching of the inputs/outputs is another factor, due to its effect as a subtle filter, as well as Level Shifting. Note that Rhett's tone changed when he put the fuzz pedal inline to both the real amp and the sim, as well as his level shifted up for the sim - the pedal output has a different (usually much lower) Impedance than the guitar's output. Cheers!
Is he still going into the Hi-Z input after the fuzz pedal? At that point, after the fuzz (or any pedal) shouldn’t you go into the line in?
I don't really use plugins either, however as a live sound engineer, I understand gain, and gain staging, perhaps a little better than most. For most digital devices -18dbfs is the zero db reference. A way to find the true reference of a plugin would be to send pink noise to an analog mixer and set the level to it as close to 0db as you can get it ( it bounces a little ). Now you can send that signal back into your daw setup at unity gain. Whatever the metered level is with your Audio interface gain control all the way down, is the referenced 0db level of that device. I bet it will land on your meters close to -18dbfs. Add your plugin, and you will see where the output of the plugin lands on your meters.
On the amp plugin, there will be three-four gain options. We are looking for a reference, so we need to see where the plugin lands. Call up a factory preset ( one you didn't make/edit ) and feed it the referenced pink noise signal at unity gain. I bet you that the output of the plugin is louder than the reference. Now using the plugins input gain trim, turn it down until the plugins output is the same as your referenced pink noise input. That will be the referenced zero point of that preset. It should be relatively close for all presets. Now feed your guitar signal into it and set your guitar signal to be the same level as your referenced pink noise signal. That should make it as close to the real deal as you can get.
There is no direct correlation to dbfs and db. The 0db " reference " level on an analog mixer is based on a .775v signal. This generally ( not always ) equates to roughly -18dbfs for digital devices. Why this matters? The old and long-standing thing digital DAW users do is run their signal as close to zero dbfs as practical. This is a bad practice that was created in the days of yore when you had to make every bit count. Now, it is no longer an issue, so it is just bad practice to do that.
If you look on your OX box for instance, you can see the volume knobs start at 0db and go down from there. For the mics, it probably doesn't matter, but for the output, you should look to turn it down to the point where the level sets near a 0db reference. An easy way to tell you have unrealistic gain settings when using plugins is that the input signal is magnitudes lower than the signal coming from the plugin. Gain is gain. So if a plugin is louder than the signal being fed into it, then the plugin is adding gain. So now you need to figure out if it is the input, output, pre-amp, or master volumes settings that are adding that extra gain. The factory presets shoudl have been made to some standard level, so it is safe to assume the input control will set the majority of the presets pace.
I agree with this approach. As i dont have an analogue mixer, could I not use a multimeter to measure the voltage of the pink noise out of an output of an audio interface and adjust the levels until i get .775v? Then i could feed that back into a high Z inout until i get -18dbfs?
Very thorough. Thanks!!
and as long as your meters are true. The BBC way and EBU are cool.
Wasn't expecting Ed S' video to reach such a wide audience and to see people finally get it, but it's a pleasant surprise to say the least.
Thank goodness I figured this out last month
This is good stuff for guitar community because most aren’t experienced with gain staging for optimal levels. In the pro audio world we take this for granted but it definitely is crucial to get the optimal gain structure for your guitar riffin. As you succinctly put it, it’s like putting a boost in front of your amp. That’s 100% 💪🎸
I find this so hilarious because I've been trying to tell guitarist for years but they wouldn't listen to me, I was fortunate because I had been hardcore learning production for 2 years so when I went to modelers and digital I had NONE of the problems other guitarists were having, If guitarists had read 1PDF about producing they would have known that you can't treat a The same way you treat a microphone, Turning up the preamp on the interface just takes away from the transients that the amp sim is trying to put on the signal, I purposefully bought an interface that has 2 extra inputs on the back with no preamp, I can't believe that guitar community at large was so lazy and learning production that this was a problem for almost everyone😂😂😂
@@DangleSan Heya, just wondering what resources you personally recommend for learning these things.
@@gscottanthony7483 I would recommend just start learning about sound production in the digital space,I was reading so many PDFs about how to produce and how to mix, So I understood that parameters in the digital space are much more pronounced and that it's generally a bad idea to crank anything to the max, Also in this part sucks and guitarist are really bad at this but read the manual for the Plug in or modeler you're about to use when I got my Fractal I download the PDF and read it before I even plugged it in, So I understood why some values go from 1-1.000 or 0-5.00 instead of 0-10, Most plugins and modelers now trying to be more guitar friendly with interfaces that goes 0-10 but best believe in the digital space they're still going to a 0-1.000 I.E Even though that plugin has a pedal that looks like a tube screamer don't crank the distortion up to 10, Also another thing to do would be to buy an audio interface that Extra inputs without the Mic preamp levels, So when I plug in my guitar turn up the volume on it that's the volume you get, Or if you plug in a modeler whatever volume the modeler is set to is what you get
This is a huge help thanks Rhett. I got the Plug-in Alliance bundle and was using 1073 styles outboard pre on the front end…kept wondering why some of the plug-in descriptions weren’t quite matching expectations. The ‘clean American’ sounds were gainy as hell lol thanks so much!
This makes sooooo much more sense. Saw Nathan’s video and now this… illuminating. Not that my plugins sounded bad, they just didn’t sound ‘right’.
I've been dialing back the gain on Helix Native all the time, now it makes so much sense. Thank you Ed S, Rhett and John Cordy!
Oh, man. This fixed so many issues for me. I appreciate all the contributors.
This is a great rundown - and thanks for pointing us towards John Cordy's and Ed S's videos. In our own work we've noticed that we need to hit different amp sims at different levels to get the response we're looking for, and we tend to just dial it in by ear and by feel as we work, but it's a fantastic resource to be able to look at Ed's measurements.
Just as an amp sim / hardware amp comparison observation - it sounds like the mics on your hardware amp are panned in stereo (and when you show your OX settings it seems to confirm that), but it sounds like your virtual mics in your amp sim are panned center. It's a subtle distinction, but it makes some of the difference in perceived tone between the hardware amp and the amp sim.
(Apologies if someone else has already pointed this out; I haven't read through all of the comments.)
For the plugin part: You can also A/B your clean vs distortion tones in the plugin. Start from no gain (on the plugin’s input) and bring it up gradually while A/Bing clean vs distortion. (You may not need to bring it up much at all depending on plugin.) If the clean tone sounds much quieter, you need to turn up the gain. At the point where the volumes match, stop. That’s the right gain setting for your "amp"
Great livestream so far. Watching from Northridge, CA. Very useful information. Love your work. Rock on!!
OMG! This is a game changer. I never would have thought to keep the preamp level all the way down - I kept it low - but not that low. Tried it out and everything sounds and feels better. And I thought it was pretty good before! (Neural DSP Imperial MK II like you)
If guitarists would spend more time researching how does DAWs and production works the community wouldn't have had this problem, Boosting the signal with the interface preamp just messes with the transience that the plugin is trying to put on The Sound, u boost output NOT input, I had a friend who had a fractal unit you always used to complain that he had to re adjust his patches when he went live, I saved him hours of time when I came to his home studio 1 day to discover he had his fractal plugged into the Mike triams with them cranked at 12 o'clock, I have an interface that has 2 inputs on the back that don't have Mic preamps I plug my fractal into that so the tone I dial in in my room is the same I get on stage
So I should set the input volume on my sound interface all the way down and then raise the input volume on the plugin instead? Thanks
@@RenoFriends Start with preamp all the way down and input at zero - then adjust to make sure you have enough signal. Lot of factors involved. With Neural DSP plug-ins they are much better with interface gain at zero but Positive Grid plug-in needs some gain from the interface for example.
@@johnplunkett2004 Thanks for the reply man. I will then try to set my input level on my Motu interface to 0 and raise the input level on Neurals plugin if I understand it correctly
This is one of the most useful videos I’ve seen on you tube. Went and gain staged my interface for the 2 neural plugins I own and it now sounds like I wanted/hoped when I bought them. Thanks!😊
Big thanks Ed S for your hard work and research! Much love!
i'm am furious(ly happy) about how much this just changed my toans. like, i always felt good about it, but it always just felt "close enough." this fixed a lot of eq problems, really tighened up the sound and made it feel real for me. kinda wish i'd known this sooner. *** MOTU M2 input gain at 0. into logic with helix imput boosted to 4.5. ***
you changed my life with this information. Makes total sense not to push the preamp at all really before going in to the plugin. Brilliant!
This was an absolute game changer for me. I'm not the most versed in plugins, or audio recording - but this was totally illuminating and made my digital rig sound 10x better. Thanks for putting this together @RhettShull and @Johnnathancordy. Massive kudos!
Bro please tell me what this video recommend us. The video is too long
@@Abc-nz2yi dial back input gain on interface, as Neural DSP compensates for this natively.
@@brettsnowball thanks 🙏
Rhett this is a great find. I had to "nerd out" for a bit and it brings back memories. I never used plug-ins but used to mix live sound for a band and worship for years. I probably would have set input levels like always at unity gain then back off a little to avoid red lining the channel. I would have never known. Shout outs to Ed S and the others who posted their findings as well. Good stuff right there.
Great live stream going a bit into the matter from a practical / demo-like point of view. Thanks for doing it. Subscribed. 👍
This is sooo useful! It makes a lot of sense and there is actually one company that did figured this would be an issue for the user. United plugins included an "optimize input gain" button on their electrum and basememt plugins.
Regarding playback of a video, such as John Cordy‘s video, you can return computer playback through a pair of virtual inputs back into the UA console. Then use rogue amoeba loopback software to capture the entire output of the console to feed your video stream.
That is good news for people who has cheaper or older interface, it does not matter how noisy your preamp is because it won't be used to bring any gain , so no extra noise either 😀
That's good news btw, I'm planning to use neural DSP and my mixer preamp is the weakest thing in my whole setup (Behringer 2 channel). I should really upgrade lol.
This was my background noise while I was working on a painting. Fascinating shit. Great video Rhett!
Chiming in from Austin here, and heh, glad to see confirmation of what I'd kinda figured out on my own a while back. Zero level through a Scarlett has been my go-to for a while, after noticing what it was doing with input levels in the DAW. That being said, I might try bumping it up just a hair in certain situations just to see what it does.
Also, there was mention in the chat, and Jon Cordy confirmed this, that using any of the Helix products as your interface does all the impedance and level correction automatically when passing through the dry tracks. Might be cool to try it out and demonstrate it in a video.
Lowering the gain stage on the DI is a great idea, but I recommend recording with 48kb instead of 44.1 which will increase the sample rate dynamics that were present when gain was at full db.
Also, I recommend adding after the amp plugin with a newly invented technology to mimmick speaker dynamics of which all current amp sims as well as impulse responses lack and remain flat. It is Bogren Digital's IRDX Core which was designed to work with any amp sim and impulse response. They are metal producers which discovered how flat heavily distorted plugins lacked analog fidelity of the random movements of the actual speaker cab before it is recorded into the microphone, but this also works with clean guitars and bass as well.
Now someone needs to invent the randomizations of the electrical current itself that modifies the tone from preamp to the amp. Another aspect that might be lost if one turns the guitar volume itself to the low settings that may not simulate into plugins.
Thanks Ed! This solves a bunch of issues I was having...
Listening to these a/b tests really shows how far we’ve come with amp modeling. Every time you switch to the real amp it sounds a lot better but the gap is closing.
I always intuitively played with the input gain to get the tones I wanted, as it's a huge factor.
Even in the analog world you'd often boost or cut input gain with a pedal, so I never took it as super set in stone.
But cool that there are now kinda official numbers to compare to the real amps.
Everyone has their own way of approaching how to model. Standards are good until they prevent innovation, so they can be detrimental. It's a double edged sword.
Any advisement that can be shared on how to equalize those differences in modeling approach are always helpful in keeping the repetition of mistakes or misunderstandings to a minimum.
This is one of those rare yet broadly applicable videos.
Ask yourself what else can this type of approach apply to? Now you're beginning to understand how important this video's message is.
Thanks Rhett!
Especially with Line 6 Helix Native I always felt like everything was way too hot, gainwise, no matter what I selected. Guess my intuition wasn't off even if I wasn't sure how to address it. Thanks for this! ❤
So experiment and turn knobs n stuff
@@kodykindhart5644 I did experiment and turn knobs and stuff. That produced a range of results but didn't produce a clear and unified solution. Plus, I only own one classic amp. So I can compare only that one and maybe figure out what to do in comparison for similar results. Most people using amp sims don't own a tube amp to compare even, so they're shooting blindly.
Plus, even IF you have a tube amp to compare to set up the gain that it matches the original, technically you would have to mic it up and mic it up correctly with one of the mics used in the amp sim to get a comparable result, otherwise you're comparing your ear to a microphone. And THEN figure out the gain difference at the input stage. Fun.
I am a mega-nerd. Thanks for teaching me stuff and helping pass the time while I get my studio ready for a new year of business! -Nate
Great video! I’ll definitely try this next time I’m in the studio, just got an amp plugin and wasn’t sure how to set it up.
Incredibly useful! I was struggling with this for years! Thank you!
Pete Thorn did a great video on the Soldano plug-in (Neural DSP) and he had it to the T with the amp. There may have been a hair more mids in the plugin but if anything I liked that more. Watched on replay till the end because I have this plugin and I also had trouble getting clean tones with proper levels. Now between plugin mic pre level and Focusrite level I'll have some things to try.
I literally just dealt with this last night on the neural dsp rebellion. My 7 string in and it had a lot of distortion on the claim channel and it wasn't like that before and watching this video pop up today is really weird, but it made me realize why now so thank you. Had my input on my Beringer UMC1820 Not at zero and I also didn't have the instrument button pushed in. Thanks man just subbed to your channel.
Watching from Tuscaloosa, AL. Thanks for this and thanks also to Ed S.
In retrospect this seems obvious because of the VU levels.... I started trimming back my levels super low because of the VU on the UA board. It always bothered me to set it so low but the the VU is the dead giveaway... but we use the lines for jams, bass & getting a strong transient for edits of the mike amp tracks... I still think my amps/mikes/pres sound way better and warmer... Nice descriptive video and pointers giving & credit to others. Great Job!!!
So in resume, just adjust the input of the plugin to -16dbfs aprox for real input response. In my opinion the DI should be still gain-staged because its an audio interface doing A/D conversion.
Please explain?
@orModanica The preamp of the audio interfaces are not designed to emulate a AMP input. They are optimised to Analog to digital conversion. By gain-staging i mean: optimising the signal input gain so its not so low so that is not close to noise floor, neither too high to saturate or clip the converters of the interface. This will ensure the best audio quality to everything you record (from mics, to instruments)
So, if you want to optimise the input gain for the amp sim, with proper prior gain-stagin, you should rollback the input gain of the plugin accordingly to the output of you instrument.
In example: i tend to use -10Dbfs for HIGH output guitars
or -16Dbfs or less for vintage output guitars
The thing is, everyone is crrazy for this topic because no one really realized that is harder to fine tune the gain of an AMP sim if the input is too hot. Specially of you are one of the "edge of break-up" guys.
If you ever tried STL tones plugins, you will notice that they have a "proper amp input" optimizer tool", that turns down the gain accordly to the play AND type of output of your guitar.
@@blacksaona thx man! Do you think if amp sim makers published the reference signal level they designed their plugins around it would help take out the guess work? Or are you more in the trust your ears camp?
@@ImpostorModanica i think it is more important for the low gain amp sims. The edge of breakup its a sensible and important point because it affects how we perform. If it has a bad setup, we will get frustrated for sounding like we want and thats why most oldschoolers prefer real amps
We figured this one out a ways back ... couldn't get the Tonex software and hardware to sound the same with same preset. It's still something that requires some tweaking though, I find that the person who designed (or captured) the impulse can be pretty flexible with their parameters. One preset sounds perfect, next has no volume, etc.
I've spent few hours to tweak tonex software sound exactly as tonex pedal. First of all - use internal tonex software demos (in dropdown with play on it) to hear how tonex _meant_ to sound with this exact preset/model (use IK original model for sure). Now you have reference how guitar plugged in PC has to sound. Plug your guitar and turn input gain on interface until it will sound similar (mostly in gain). Remember your gain position. Forget about this video for now. Usually you need your guitar at -12.2--12.5dB (true peak) on meter. Broadcast standard and tonex software definitely counts on this. Now plug your guitar in tonex PEDAL with the same model and adjust your INPUT TRIM in tonex Global settings until your guitar will sound the same. You may use your tonex software demos as a reference while you're doing this. I have my audio interface output plugged into line-in of my amp along with tonex pedal (in power-amp input), so I'm listening tonex software and tonex pedal over the same exact speaker with the same settings. Your answer is in INPUT TRIM settings on tonex Global settings. This param changed radically with firmware update so your old settings might not work now. And I could help you a bit further with this : 1) Use only professional captures from tone partners. Amalgam Audio, Studio Rats, Sadites, Tone Junkies etc. They all set their gain correctly and presets would work as expected. 2) GAIN in your tonex/pedal is NOT the gain of the amp. It's not a model, it's capture. Your gain works _exactly_ as volume knob on guitar while your amp untouched. That's why they give you captures of the same amp on different gain levels like clean/crunch/edge/drive... THIS gain is where you compensate "weak" capture to be in line with stock/professional captures. Gain in your preset is the same as trim-input in your pedal settings (and input in tonex software). This is level of signal hitting the front of the amp model. NOT the gain level of the model. This is captured profile with all knobs of the amp fixed. It has no idea how amp behaves on different settings just because it contains no information except this particular settings on shot. /// Information in this video is NOT about sound from amp plugin. This is about matching hardware range of YOUR interface and THEIR (plugin creators) interface to play on the same playground so to speak. If you play very high gain with a lot of dynamics and compression it _might_ help to fix your sound with this tips from Ed. But UA-cams (not Ed) just forgot to tell you that when you set your input gain to zero on audio interface, you STILL have to gain-up your input signal INSIDE your DAW up to standard -12.2..12.5dB true peak. Just like you did with your audio interface gain but VIRTUALLY. There's "infinite" headroom and your plugin will match range of your interface optimally so you will never hit plugin's headroom just because your interface have another _ground level_ factory specs. This tip on Ed's video is about matching MAX RANGE of YOUR interface and THIER interface. Not about amps or guitars. Amps/guitars works as usual, just inside digital domain. And you still have to deal with your input level and your gain on the amp (modeller, not captured profiles :)) And in tonex all settings (except gain) are PRE or POST your "amp+cab". It does nothing with captured tone model. It just slightly adjusts input or output eq/comp/rev. That's why there is only one single button "Pre/Post" in advanced settings. And gain on your tonex interface, input slider in software and gain knob on pedal (and trim-in setting in your pedal) do EXACTLY the same. Adjust input level of signal hitting the front of the software/pedal. They give you different places just to allow you control different captures independently AND with midi/volume pedal. Because nor GLOBAL trim-in neither KNOB gain isn't available for midi. Only gain in _prifile_. You use your trim-in to fit your _guitar_ to pedal (for software sounding the same as pedal), your gain in preset to match all others presets (and control it with midi/expression pedal) and your gain knob to slightly boost/desaturate your tone (like volume on guitar itself). Sorry for long test. I hope this will help and clarify things. Jason Sadites has few very helpful videos with gain in tonex.
An epiphany not of my own making but it feels just as good! We get caught up in the details and often miss the obvious. Thanks for the nudge. ,JP
Excellent video! For anyone wanting to compare on their own with an Ox, be sure to use the mono to stereo version of the amp plugin for a fair comparison.
A huge step forward in my endless tone search. I’ve demo’d a couple Neural packages and just didn’t think the tone was great. Now I know why. One turn of a knob and all of a sudden my investments come alive. Works great in BiasFX with my motu interface. Thank you!
Great vid addressing something I’ve been wondering about for some time. This is the reason I’ve been struggling with clean and mid gain plugin tones all this time. Reached out to my artist guy at neural and sent him this video. Although I’m sure he has seen it by now. I hope that they issue a general recommendation.
This is also true for plugins emulating vintage compressors and EQs. People send shit-hot signals into it and it doesn’t respond correctly. I’ll usually gain down my mix bus by -8 to -9dB to get the sweet spot of emulations like UAD Shadow Hills or UAD Pultec plugins.
Big fan, I’m a Veteran pensioner now from Army Service. In Australia where $$$ comes to die on expense for music gear. I’m older guy on way to mid 50’s. Love to take your course to clean up my playing after few yrs of not being able to play. Now I’m home 24/7 with my service dog Trooper. You’re a champ mate, if I can budget bit more I’d love to refresh my triads. Stay strong 🫡🪖🇦🇺
Good onya Digga
Watching on replay in New Zealand. Thanks for the great info, mate!
have an SLO100 and a Helix... did 4 cable method and got the identical sound from each using the modelled SLO in the Helix. matched inputs to line and instrument levels where they needed either... was pretty stunned tbh!
Something I see fairly often that is hugely forgotten that I think also contributes to further confusion is that most audio interfaces have a line level and instrument level inputs. Guitar’s, record players, and most analog gear that doesn’t have a preamp operates at instrument level, therefore, the output on these devices and instruments are lower by about -30 DB and is a much quieter and weaker signal requiring some sort of signal boosting, such as a preamp. most audio interfaces have both of these inputs, or they use the same inputs but require you to change them to instrument level in the audio interface software itself!!!! you can plug a Guitar into a line level input and still achieve signal but you’ll notice you have to boost the gain on the preamp much more than if you switch the audio interface to instruments level so that it knows that it can boost the signal properly!!! then apply what rhett says in this video.
I think the best approach is to set the "pre-amp gain" of your audio interface to optimize the A/D conversion. This is "traditional" audio gain staging and it still applies. With 24-bit converters and excellent noise floors in modern equipment you can argue this is less necessary than in the past, but I am not seeing the reason not to optimize it when you can. The "Input Gain/Trim" of the amp sim (or any other plug-in) is there to adjust the signal level before hitting the amp simulation. Adjusting the level on the interface when switching plug-ins makes no sense to me. The role of the interface is to get the best possible digital representation of my analog guitar signal into my computer for processing. When I switch plug-in (different amp sims or say putting a compressor or other effects into the chain before the amp) I should not adjust levels on my audio interface. Those adjustments should be done in the DAW/plugin. Or am I missing something here?
You got it, only that your ideal approach is also what the video shows. The point is to always leave the interface input gain at minimum or at least very low (since on most modern high impedance inputs, it already gives a signal strong enough for recording purposes), and then use the input gain stage on your plugins to adjust the amp sim response as needed (especially for cases like Rhett's where you also own the real amp).
That's what I thought as well. You should give as much signal (without clipping obviously) into to AD converters. As soon as you are within the digital world, all DAWs and PlugIns process in 32bit floating point, so there you can reduce the input gain for the PlugIn if necessary.
Plus: shouldn't the clean recorded signal be completely independent from what plugin you throw at later on? If (for whatever reason) you change the PlugIn after recording this should work with any properly recorded signal if you set the input gain of the PlugIn accordingly.
I've been following this and as someone who has been using amp sims for over a decade, as a musician and as a (former) recording/mix engineer, I was like "Are you all NOT setting your input gain on your interface to -12db??". Not being condescending at all, there are times exceptions are necessary and appropriate, but that has been my standard practice since I switched from analog to digital a lifetime ago. I had to do a lot of research and experimentation, because tape functioned so very differently, due to noise floor issue that really don't exist in the digital domain, unless you have a hardware/ground loop/power issue. I honestly think the issue with this in general, is people approaching their input signal like plugging into an amp (understandably) and not like recording a source. Gain staging is a fundamental of recording and mixing that is often and easily overlooked or glazed over in DIY circles. You can always add gain at any point in the (in the box) signal chain before the amp sim, but once you start getting any amount of saturation or clipping, you can never get rid of it by reducing gain further in the signal chain. You can easily put EQ, compression, filters, or even any type of pedal sim in front of the amp plugin to shape the signal and/or push it harder. I fully admit though, that I'm a tinkerer and I do this kind of testing and experiments with absolute everything I do, from music and recording gear, to bread baking recipes.
Funny thing is that it just makes total sense if you think about what sort of input they'd be basing the amp models off of but with being used to managing input levels through interfaces I never did this. Makes a world of difference when you aren't just slamming the plugins with a really boosted input level all the time.
Huge issue i have found. For years i was wondering why everything is so gained up. Now to have that thought justified, love it❤
it is not that you don’t have to use extra gain before the plugin, it really depends on the plugin and your user interface, for plugins like th-u or amplitube (and others) the calibration is 0dBfs, and depending on your interface you’ll need to set a certain gain before the plugin to achieve that. So, the gain you need is: calibration level of the plugin - base level provided by your interface for a 1Vp signal (no gain on the preamp). I could be that you need to remove gain from your base level or add tons of it. But once two different systems are properly calibrated they should sound pretty much the same if you plug the same guitar on both.
11:21 I came upon this through John Cordy‘s video like probably most people did. I think that guy Ed S who somewhere under one of John‘s video comments soelled his full name which I can’t remember unfortunately, that guy deserves hughe thanks and much love. I think John in one video even kind of called the whole thing, „the S…-method“ or something (again, can’t remember Ed‘s full name). I love the thought of it becoming kind of the standard term for the method of setting your Amp sims Gain as imho Ed deserves it. Thanks a lot Ed! ❤️
Very helpful! Thx! I had recently figured out this concept using my Amplitude 5 Max with its Fender Amp Sims. The Fender sims quickly distorted before lowering the preamp gain. Update: Again, I just want to say "Thanks" for posting a vid on this issue!
Watching from outside of Chicago. This is super helpful as a guy with the baby in the house. Amps are going away for a little bit in favor of an amp-less setup.
Watching from the state of the frozen tundra (WI). What is nice about amp sims is that I live in an apt and cannot play an amp. I've been running my guitar into a A.R.T PRO MPA II into an Antelope Audio Orion 32+ into Reaper. I then put the amp sim on the input fx (so I am recording the sound of the guitar going through the amp sim onto the track, so no dry signal is being recorded). To me it is a great chain. If anyone is interested, I'm using the Fuchs amp sim.
The Pro MPA II runs the tubes at 150V on the "high plate" setting. 250V is the standard. There's a slight dynamic compromise, but it's probably not significant as long as you don't overdrive the tube. There's no need to record the amp sim sound to a track. You can place the amp sim as a post effect on any DI track in Reaper and the DI sound will not be heard as long as the plugin pin connector settings are right. You can render the track later with all post effects if you run out of CPU power.
I really like the fuchs I run it the same way except instead of the comp I use a 1081 eq plugin to add color
Valuable information! Thanks guys!
I commented the same on his video but i was really surprised that y'all had been stumped by this. I am a total bedroom-playing novice but even in my basic research regarding (i) using an interface and (ii) using plugins, I saw a few sources mention that you should NOT turn your gain up at the interface level at all, because you risk distorting/clipping/screwing up the plugin algorithm. Maybe the advice to bring up the gain a bit is the right thing to do if you are using the ox box and otherwise just porting that straight into the track (or you are using like a UA amp pedal into a DI box into the interface) but I can't speak to that bc i don't do that. This is especially important w/ hot pickups (i have bare knuckle aftermaths in one guitar and the interface has no extra gain AND i turn down the input level within the plugin and it's still a bit hot, so i could only imagine if i was putting gain on at the interface)
I'm the same. I always set the input gain completely down on my RME when using plugins. I learned that trick many, many years ago. I've been using amp plugins since the first generation, along with a Line 6 POD. It was the same situation with that device as well. There was no point in setting the input high with the POD because the entire tone and sound was essentially a self-contained digital representation/sound. It made no sense for me to crank the input in an effort to "help it along".
Ok Rhett. Your explanation and example makes sense from the point of view of someone who owns the real amp. My own condition is I don't have a real amp. I never know how the real amp reacts with or without boost pedal. Does it really matter how close the plugin to real amp if I don't know the real one in the first place ?
There was a time when I always set my interface gain to 0. This was before Ed S video. The result was most hi gain amp plugin that I tried couldn't produce a satisfying chug and lifeless. At the same, every youtuber who demoed that particular plugin sounded awesome. Then I set my interface plugin to 9 o'clock and miraculously most of hi gain plugin got new life and sounded awesome.
After watching this video and Ed's new upcoming video regarding this topic. I'll try what you suggested in this video.
The same problem here and this is true for "common practice" not related to this video. How we suppose to know what is "right" if we're trying the amp we've never heard before and have no idea how it SHOULD behave ? For me the best reference point is your input gain. Broadcast standard is -9..12dB (true peak). Gain up your input signal (in DAW) up to this level before amp plugin and you'll be there. Real amps built to expect particular range of level from guitars and pre-amp pre-amplifies this incoming low gain signal up to standard. But in DAW/computer there's no such things and guitar plugin _expects_ standard input level. So you have to adjust it by yourself. You may check this by testing the same amp on low-mid gains when there are presets for it. if it does clean on clean and crunch on crunch preset you're approximately there. And you definitely have to listen to original videos with reviews, so you know what to expect and what is so special about this particular amp. :) In digital domain this is not that easy as plugging your guitar in different amps IRL :)
Fantastic information! Thanks so much!
After some 4-5 years off, i replayed around with amplitube fender amps the last days. It was the first thing i played around with for some good time, the Input Gain. I mean i know a Fender tweed champ and i know how it chrunches at 12, so it was absolutely clear that the Input Gain has to fit, that the Amp can do what hes doing at 12. I just feel like the amps react some kind of different on the high strings. The clean response is different to the Original. I think it has something to do with the AD Unit in General. I will try something with analog preamp plugins the next days in the hope to get the Signal just right in the Amp Plugin, so the Amp gets the most kind of a "passive" analog Signal like a real amp gets.
This may be very helpful .im dipping back into the amp modeling . I tried it many years ago when it first came out. I couldn’t stand the digital hiss. It looks like they may have some of that under control. I’m from the reel to reel recording era. Best sound ever to me. Great video Rhett thanks.👍✌️
Well i hated plugins ten years ago but today it has the best quality you can expect from a music product: they're fun and make you want to play.
Watched from San Antonio. Great video. I am going to try this out on my headrush prime as the clean amps never sound right with input up.
So what i learned is that the Tone king plug in sounds great even when you use it wrong! I was going to buy the Rabea but this may be more my style!
Good stuff. I've just been using a VU plugin in my daw input set with 0 at a -18 db reference level, and then making sure my loudest transients don't spike beyond the red range of the VU, meaning a -15 db input maximum. When in doubt, I think using a VU meter set at -18 is a good strategy, but maybe others disagree.
This is good info, I typically have my guitar signal peak around -12dbfs and I find that's a good starting point for most amp sims, normally you have to nudge things a few db either way. It's a shame that there's no agreed upon standard for this stuff. But then, there's no standard output for pickups so in some way variance is just part of guitar gear.
it’s not really about pickups being different levels, and more about interfaces all using their own definition of what voltage is represented as as a digital value. It’s about removing the variable of the interface headroom, rather than the variable of the guitar/pickup (which you’d want to preserve)
I use TH-U as my main amp plug-in. On there they do have you set your level to the plug-in first thing.
I used to adjust the gain form the interface. Ever since I saw ML Sound Lab Mikko's " Two Likely Reasons Why Your Guitar Tone Sucks " video I've been setting my interface (iD 4) gain to 0 and adjusting input level from ampsims.
omg thank you (and Ed S, obviously). I've been trying to find the legit, canon answer on how this stuff is supposed to be setup for ages now.
I've honestly been wondering for a while now why higher output pickups even need to be a consideration for people running into software sims, since we literally have a preamp we can use to boost the output before anything hits the amp sim. If anything, the high output pickups in my Ibanez are more of a liability, because they readily pick up the noise from all 3 computers surrounding me at my desk, while the medium output humbucker in my Strat is way quieter. If I want the Strat hitting the amp's input harder, I can just turn up the preamp, or use the amp sim's compressor pedal.
When I use amp sims I always gain up my pre for good sig/noise and then i just insert a trim before the amp sim, then I can starve the input really easy. I also almost always reamp my amp sims through a real speaker cab and power amp and record it back in with a mic. I use amp sims to track easilly and get tones from amps I don have, not as a sub for amps I have so it always works better to reamp it.
I have to admit, I set my interface to the factory recommended settings. I never got clean tones I was hoping for, even with the Tone King & Cory Wong plugins, now I know why. Can't wait to test this with higher gain amp plugins as well.
The purpose of adjusting the preamp gain is not to shape the sound but rather for the ADC to convert the guitar signal to digital with maximum dynamic range and low SNR. You are listening to a distorted sound. Normalize signal with a software before the amp simulator if you want.
@2:52 I could swear I've heard that tone and that bend of the string/note sound on the show "One Punch Man." Sounds similar. Sounds nice!
Good morning. I watch the video in replay from Bordeaux in France :) Thank you for quality of your video !
This is really useful information. Thanks for making this.
The boss core 1000 depending on what guitar your using let's you boost or lower the guitar input for maximum sound.. these plug ins need something like that
Fascinating exploration - I watched JNC's video already.
I'm checking in from Cotati, CA - 6 miles north of Mesa Boogie, 6 miles south of Two-Rock. Still not using modeled amps, but I'm not recording. I need physical knobs I can futz with right away.
You mess with your amp settings after you get them set where you like???
Foh really loves less amps
Loud really kills the horns on stage
@@kodykindhart5644 every room is different. I set at soundcheck, if we get one, then forget.
@@kodykindhart5644 We have our own sound crew and don't play big enough rooms for the "luxury" of a Venue's FoH. We mostly play wineries.
I currently use a Milkman 50w head with emulated DI out & Speaker out.
i feel like i always just sorta knew this. never thought about it much but i always keep any DI waveforms very small compared to miced sources. my goal is that the signal out of the amp sim ends up the right size. i think the problem is when you forget the amp sim IS part of the gain staging, and you have to trick it and the DAW by giving it a very low DI signal, without any more gain youd be putting on other sources. idk where folks heard or were told to drive their amp sims with the interface preamp. i think this is just a misunderstanding, an understandable one but i think it comes from confusing DAW gain staging and amp sims with a preamp gain on a real amp.. or something. i've honestly never had this issue but im not sure how i realized yes you want tiny inputs and waveforms on DI, like -20db or so.
yes exactly, never know that was an issue for people until today and seeing a bunch of video about it. It make senses because if they are just guitarists, they know nothing about mixing and sound engineering, they dont know how to properly gain stage their signals and thinks they need to add a signal way to high, just before clipping into the amp. In real life the D.I guitar signal isn't a super hot one a -6dBfs who run into the preamp/amp
Is it possible that the difference in eq and gain you are hearing, after setting the input gain correctly, is based on the Mic positions/IR's in the plugin and the way your amp is Mic'd? Thanks for the video and for supporting John. he is a very hard working and talneted guy.
This was a REALLY useful video! Thanks a lot!
Thanks for this. I had almost given up on amp sim plugins.
I live in an apartment and can’t really use my amps on a regular basis. Especially not my rockerverb 😅 with that being said I’ve been pretty impressed with the neural dsp plug ins. I have a cheap focusrite interface and have tried the mesa, tone king, and just got the Morgan one the other day and think they’re pretty good! Obviously not the same as an amp but good enough to get the job done when you have to play with headphones or something like that!
Kenny of Reaper Mania talked about this a few years ago. But, he used the recording input on the DAW. That is adjust your audio interface gain to average around -18db and more importantly peaks not above -12db on your input meters. This is in general for all plugins. It seemed with your Apollo was somewhere around that level (-18db) on your DAW meter.
I prefer that approach as you don't have to consider which audio interface you are using.
this would normalise all guitars to the same volume no matter if they are quiet or loud pickups and would not yield accurate results. Also, different plugin manufacturers design their plugins for different input levels.
So unfortunately, this method would not be good for getting an accurate gain response from an amp plugin.
This video initially is NOT about guitar input or amp sound. It's about optimal mapping your audio interface MAX VOLUME LEVEL (dBu) to THEIR (plugin creators) audio interface max. vol. level (dBu). To match hardware _ranges_ optimally to make amp plugin feel itself at home. You STILL have to level-up our signal up to -12db. Ed just recommends to do this in DAW instead of narrowing your interface range from the bottom by cranking up input gain.
I was beginning to think I’d never get my plug-ins to sound right!!!
I just did exactly what you and JC suggested and whamo 🥰👍🏼 It’s sounds 200 times better.
I have Axe I/O. (Input level, min gain: 0 dBFS is obtained with a +14 dBu signal at the TS input ) I turned the instrument preamp down and backed off the Neural DSP input gain by -2.2
you need to do the opposite. +14 - (-2.2) = 16.2. You need to turn up 1.8.
Been doing this out of necessity for years. I've always found that I have to keep the pre on the interface at its lowest setting when playing guitar straight in (and sometimes even have to trim down.) Even on interfaces "optimized" for hot hi-z inst signals my strat with lace sensors peaks up at about -3/-4 dbfs with the pre all the way down. Even a Mccarty 594 with notoriously low output pickups peaks up above -10.
Idk if it’s because I went to audio school but I have always done this 🤔 I have never driven the preamp I never do. Never did. The Hiz port when activated is boosting your signal for that purpose. That’s what the Hiz lines were made for this exact thing. The Hiz activate an ohm switch. But maybe because I always separate mics and guitars in my head. Interesting to me I thought everyone was already doing that…
same from me...
Very interesting and now it makes a lot of sense. Comes another question: when it comes to cab simulator such as UA Ox box or stomp (not IRs). Is the speaker simulation being affected by the input signal?
Great video Rhett. Watching from Northern Ireland
Watching from Detroit. Yeah I got the Soldano SLO one for my birthday last year. But I pretty much mic up amps for actual recording, I use plug in more for writing! But this is interesting info!
I love your content Rhett, you're awesome, by the way, I watch you from Mexico
SUPER THank you for this! :). quite a different way if approaching things and I can hear and feel the difference! :)
I knew it! It never made sense to me that when changing guitars, I'd increase/decrease the input gain on the interface, which I thought there was no way that leveling up the gain would happen with the real amp..
I had the feeling but no knowledge to do what Ed did.
Ola has a video I saw over a year ago on the input on plug ins. He said he had the plug in all the way at zero because it was too much gain. After seeing that video I always had my input down to zero or -18, depending on the make and model.
Using some of your patches for the Helix Native plugin. Watching from London.
Hey Rhett. One good advice: you better put a sidechain compressor on your mic, so while you're strumming guitar this sound couldn't feed to the mic. And when the strings are quiet - you can easily talk.
And thanx for your explorations, but the real deal is to set up your input gain in audio interface just under clipping, while strumming hard. Good luck ❤
Hey Rhett, I’m watching replay from Beacon, New York. The beautiful Hudson valley. Thank you go or all of your information, your incredible playing, your kind personahow articulate you get your context across and your tone…. is as good as it gets my man. Fan for life. My only question is, what interface makes a difference for guitar for clarity, warmth and of course feel? At one time I was going into a UA 610 solo through an Apollo to give it the warmth. I’m leaning towards the new Neuman mt 48, or is that overkill. I mean I’m just getting back in after a break and im using lol an IK irig. So I know it’ll get better from there. Ty
This was very helpful. Thanks
With as many software interfaces their are out there, I'm surprised nobody did this earlier. Most of us just plugged in and cranked until it turned red, them backed off.
I guess I've been dodging this one since I always record via Helix -> USB Dry -> Helix Native. Still a good topic to be aware of.