I think you guys should have a look at the Swanage railway. They announced this week they've had to cancel their steam gala for later this year, and they are in serious financial brown stuff, begging for donations to stay afloat. It's a beautiful railway, and I think it would be a real shame if it doesn't make it.
I think you're being over-dramatic. They've cancelled the autumn gala because the hoped for guest loco/s wasn't/weren't available. They had the big gala in the spring, remember
@AndreiTupolev but they've announced they need hundreds of thousands of pounds to survive the remainder of the year? So loss of revenue from the cancelled gala will not help at all
Ashley Down on Metro west Railway opens 27th September official opening and passenger opening 28 th September 2024 on The Bristol Temple meads station to Filton Abbey station and Filton North and Henbury line with bus interchange
@@6etallr The fundraising campaign has actually been going several months and was accompanied by sensible retrenchment. A major contributory factor for the steam gala cancellation was a bridge bashing incident which stops them bringing guest locos in by rail. Grrrr ... and it sounds like they didn't catch the lorry driver. Anyway, the line is indeed well wort supporting and there are some good new initiatives including a rail/boat/bus combined ticket.
@GreenSignals not sure if youve both seen the news about First group have bought out Grand union trains. The Stirling to london Euston operations has been renamed Stirling trains limited on company's house l. Was talk First wanted more units/carriages for lumo and hull trains and given Hitachi charging stupid prices will First perhaps put a big order in
Again, as a current freight train driver, I can’t see a good reason for not using a member of groundstaff to call the Scotsman back onto the train, either setting back with radios or hand signals. Considering the fact that Scotsman has a corridor tender, the rules should be amended to allow staff into the corridor ONLY for the purposes of setting back and reverse signal sighting. My own employers rules don’t allow a driver to move a locomotive without good, clear vision in the direction of movement. I’m not allowed to set back with a 66, I have to change ends and drive it. If, for some reason, that’s not possible (defective cab for example), then a competent person must be present to set the loco back from either the rear cab or the ground. It’s just safer. As for the Peterborough overspeed incident, I think we have a sleeping giant of a disaster on our hands with regard to the reliance on overspeed grids. The grids are OFTEN set incorrectly OR incorrectly spaced. Driver diagrams are getting more and more torturous, which is (rightly or wrongly) causing more of these sorts of incidents. This in turn, is increasing the reliance on the TPWS and AWS systems. Although it’s not 100% relevant to this specific incident, it’s relevant to overspeed issues in general. For example; there are at least 5 TPWS overspeed grids on my own route card, that are set to the incorrect speed, or spaced incorrectly. Even after multiple reports and activations by my colleagues, nothing has been rectified. In these 5 cases, we know about them because they trigger at speeds that are slower than the signposted decrease in line speed. So how many are there on the network that NOBODY knows are set incorrectly, with the speed too high? We would only ever find out when a train comes screaming through at a much higher speed than it should be, by which time, it’s too late. In my own opinion, it feels like a sleeping issue, waiting to rear its ugly head, a bit like gauge corner cracking did… The specific incident at Peterborough would be cleared up in future once ERTMS comes into effect on the ECML. Also, who offered me a mainline cab ride in a steam locomotive?! I’m still waiting to find out how I get involved 😅
As a new subscriber, I would like to thank you both for the brilliant content and presentation. As a lifelong steam enthusiast, I am really getting interested by the intricacies of running a modern railway .
Looks like the members podcast has gone out on the main podcast feed rather than episode 51 guys- my podcast addict app and Spotify seem that way at least! Looking forward to listening 👍
Hello from us all at The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group. A big thank you to green signals as well, we've had a number of new followers on our social media pages join because they've heard our name mentioned on your show. 👍
Thanks I just can't see the point of continuing without using continental loading guage. I thought that and capacity were the main reasons to justify HS2 in the first place. Anyway, great information as always. Ian
I seem to remember the arguments by the anti's about reducing the speed got countered by a number of experts who stated that any small saving in construction costs was more than lost by needing to buy more trains to run the same service, and that was before the cost of more drivers and greater maintenance costs. Then, of course, there's the higher maintenance cost of ballast over slab track.
Agree only way to deliver real savings by reducing speed is to take advantage in a more flexible alignment taking advantage not only of tighter radius turns but also the lower noise foot print.
@@grahamariss2111 But then you make the line longer, therefore more expensive, and the longer the journey takes the greater the number of trains you need to run the same service.
Tender first running can be problematic, due to visibility difficulties and undue wear on the wheels. There is really a need to provide turning facilities or to use locomotives more suitable, such as 2-6-4 tranks or BR classes with cut-out tenders and rear-facing spectacle plates. A class 4 2-6-4 tank should be up to the job if converted for oil firing.
Another great episode. Excuse me for what might be a naive question, but how do overspeed incidents get reported? Does eg the signalling system identify it and instigate an investigation, or what? Love the major aspects of the podcast of course, but I also think what some may believe to be more 'minor' railway trinkets are true gems, eg the fact that Pete Waterman OBE has at last had a locomotive named after him is pure gold - the man is not just a rail enthusiast, but very knowledgeable about the industry, as much as he is about music production! And personally, the news about Wye signal box is fantastic - I used to pass it every day commuting to London.
Under certain circumstances, there can be an alert given: i.e. if the rolling stock and signal are TPWS fitted; speed is below 75mph; and it's a 'right direction movement'. If not, then it's simply down to humans (those involved; those observing; or those who review data e.g. otmr after) to identify and report it. In any event, no investigation is instigated 'automatically' - it always relies on a person (driver, signaller etc). reporting it to control/responsible managers/raib/orr etc.
Thanks for another great utube broadcast Liked the hs2 light Shame about the royal mail class 325s going up for sale Be great if you could do a shoew on these excellent units What's next now for 325s
Fascinating stuff about HS2. You mentioned that the report about salvaging a new version of HS2 to Manchester was compiled by Andy Burnham and the former West Midlands mayor Andy Street. You also had some harsh, but justified, words to say about Michael Fabricant. Perhaps as the 'life partner' of Andy Street, Michael Fabricant could have been a bit more well disposed towards HS2?
The latest report is by Burnham/Arup/Higgins. You know Higgins the ex HS2 head, the master of keeping costs down. HMG/DfT/HS2 have zero involvement with the report. It is all slanted towards befitting Manchester, surprise, surprise. Big Liverpool with its large massive port is ignored. Not worth looking at.
Riviera stock often operated on railtours starting in the midlands . WCRC moving it all to carnforth is a bad business descision as it would involve a big increase in Empty stock moves or a large decrease in midlands starts of railtours. This would be a golden opportunity for WCRC to create a second operating base and expand it's business.I can see LSL jumping in and grabbing a really well placed base.
The other question coming out of the sale and movement of Riviera Trains stock to WCRC, is what it means for Nemesis Rail; its staff at Burton; and not just the stabling capacity at Carnforth, but the capacity; competency; and quality of their ability to maintain the additional stock and the new systems (CDL etc.).
We've written off 1and severely damaged 2 more LRV's in overspeed over turnout incidents in the past 3 years. Each one deemed complacency by the driver. The physics are beyond what most people imagine. We have been fortunate in no life threatening injuries occurred.
West Coast Rail have form for SPADe it was highlighted by the ORR in the same report that (eventually) made them finally bodge central locking on their ancient carriages. They only care about extracting as much money as they can from their visitors.
I like the new format, getting the headlines out first before the incidentals makes it more accessible. There's a reason why ITN and BBC use this running order! WCR are becoming a bit of an embarrassment to the heritage sector. I have had some sympathy with them over the CDL issue, in spite of your views, but after the other safety infringements they have had, they are starting to get the sector a bit of a bad name. Their statement about "safety being our first priority" starts to look like a load of BS.
I would argue that the incident at Craven Arms on the 22nd was more serious when there was a near miss with a HGV on a level crossing because the train approached when the barriers were still up, on the RAIB safety digest there is a photograph of the HGV which was a tanker with a hazchem panel on it
The potential for danger from a SPAD is greater than ever on a level crossing due to drivers being controlled by their phones or being distracted by warning chimes as they drive. The idea that they should come to a halt and look to see if any train is coming even at a level crossing with barriers is something they'll never do. As for the Flying Scotsman incident where was the person giving hand signals to the driver telling them how far they had to go before contact is made with the loco and coach buffers or do you just back up and hope for the best in the UK.
Good points re someone giving hand signals or at least assisting with the move. Will be covering that next week, as we also have some news from the RAIB.
I was surprised by the speed the 180 managed to get up to at Spital Jn. My only experience of them was one journey from St.Pancras to Derby and I do remember thinking they accelerated damn quickly, until the emergency brakes suddenly came on and left us stranded until the driver was able to isolate the fault.
@@BibTheBoulderTheOriginalOne Indeed, the air supply for the toilets was on the same reservoir as the brakes. So a fault with a toilet would cause the emergency brakes to apply. Crazy design.
Regarding the Grand Central point over speeding case. I think some drivers are taking their own loco cams (Go Pros and other brands) to back up what they saw at the time of the incident. Maybe there should be a prewarn feather on a special indicator giving the driver time to slow down for diverging from the Mainline. It is not that repeater signals are a new thing to the railway network. With a special alarm ring tone to the normal one this hopefully will mitigate these occurrences.
A few months I heard Michael Fabricant on "Any Questions" on Radio 4 saying that if they built HS2, it should run in to Birminham New Street. It just seemed to sum up his total ignorance of the purposes of the scheme.
Important rule when it comes to speaking about railways. Level of knowledge appears to be inversely proportional to confidence in one's own opinion.....
@@GreenSignalswhat makes it even more unbelievable, is that Fabricant's partner, is Andy Street - who knows full well the implications of cancelling HS2, was unequivocal about that and is part of the team behind this latest report trying to rescue it! How Andy and Michael survive pillow talk, is quite mind boggling 🤷
The Severn Valley incident was entirely avoidable and I feel sorry for the person involved in that was no safe system of work to protect them. There is a great deal of uninformed criticism of the Health and Safety Executive, but their work on preventing falls from height has saved many hundreds of lives. The oddity is that the charitable trust has been charged £48,000 costs over and above the fine by a Whitehall organisation, on what appears a fairly clear cut case. I haven't seen if there was any appeal or disagreement with the charges to cause such costs. Maybe if they wrote their reports a bit quicker, their costs would be less? Or perhaps Pete Waterman's could make them a donation through the RBF?
I trust the BBC and although I agree that Panorama has become lightweight (current fashion) I went to view the edition you mentioned. To me it was just a report on the financial history of HS2 and some important issues of how the taxpayer is treated. Could you briefly explain directly what your issue is/issue are with the program (without any 'knowing' remarks)? Then say exactly what final budget you would consider acceptable for each of the original phases. Appreciated.
Great analysis of the not-HS2 report, be interesting what way the gov will go. Just imagine how many 100s of years it will take for a UK wide network! Jacobite in the news again, you need to go on location! Hopefully digital signalling will stop those junction over speeding. Driver seemed to just expect to go straight ahead and just assumed no feather. RAIB said a lumo just ahead of the train went straight on the main line so why did the GC train need to go via platform 1? Good to see Richard using his GS mug! The Avanti failure seemed to be handled well but just so so slow. How does it take 4hrs to get a rescue train either to pull the loco or evacuate passengers. Don't we have easy access thunderbird locos anymore?
Whether politically required or not, sadly this report follows the long HS2 tradition of building a worse railway for more money - whether the additional cost is from future maintainence or just the cost or redesigning everything over again. On the plus side, that loco naming must be some of the most wholesome footage on UA-cam
On the controversy around HS2 from my perspective at least is that it’s been more about HS2 didn’t go far enough north than should it be done at all. I suspect there is quite a north-south divide of opinion on it as people I spoke to about it would like it to go up to Newcastle.
It'll be disappointing in that the number of interesting visitors (locos) to Burton will be reduced when the Riviera sets go. Hopefully it doesn't affect the viability of Nemesis.
Not a railway man but if "feathers" are so critical in signaling a fast train over to a slow track why are they not flashing or rippling? After all the great British motorists ONLY ever "see" flashing lights or do feather signals flash and I'm wasting my time? As I said I am not a railway man but I do find your videos/discussions very interesting, thank you.
As the show came to an end shortly after Richard was making fun of Nigel's pronunciation, may I point out that Richard made a complete hash of pronouncing Tondu. Oh, the shame! 🤣
my question regarding phase 2b in this case is how would this work with the line being used by freight occasionally. do they just divert all the freight while they improve the existing line? the current line still uses semaphore signalling
I don't really understand why we can't build things properly in the United Kingdom. Everything is always downgraded, the scope cut down and the projects never finished. We have been doing it as far back as far back as the M1 (with it being cut back in scope and even then took forever to actually get into Leeds). Other Western European countries have been building high speed lines in bulk and reeping the benefits. In the long run, we need the capacity and it will reduce the number of domestic flights. It will be more expensive to bulld such a line in the future, so it's best to invest the money sooner than later. When did we stop being able to do any major infrastructure project properly?
We can. Our idiot politicians would rather play politics than finish what they started. Long-term vision falls by the wayside. All this ridiculous wrangling when we could just build HS2 in full as already planned. This present Burnham plan etc is inferior.
@@dizzy2020there is plenty of infrastructure built on the continent though, look at the way the Spanish high speed network has been extended for example.
Nigel, tut tut! 5 white light Junction indicator! Not feathers. 1, 2, 3, to the left for routes to the left 3, 4, 5, are routes to the right. No JI the route is straight ahead. Another issue here is something that came to light in the inquiry into Paddington-Ladbroke Grove 1999. The number of times the driver might have driven a train over that route to maintain competence.
@izzieb 2010, when Nick Clegg claimed that a new fleet of nuclear power stations would take 11 years to produce power. We started hitting a power capacity crunch in 2021. You can only kick the can down the road so far.
@@dizzy2020 The idea that the UK does not need high-speed rail because most of our major cities are within 200 miles is stupid, the Scottish Central Belt cities are 350 miles from London, the Shinkansen and LGV networks both have lines less than 200 miles (LGV Atlantique main line to Tours is roughly the same length as HS2 phase 1), and the UK being smaller just means that we don't need to build as much to get a high-speed network of comparable scale to other developed nations. The UK is among the worst in Europe when it comes to long-term planning, public investment, having efficient planning laws. properly handling risk and uncertainty in large projects and controlling the scope of projects, there are there are whole books and academic papers on the topic.
Quiz answer. Was the first Municaply owned motor bus service from Eastbourne Railway Station to the old town. Ran by the Ilfracombe Motor Coach Company.
Richard clearly needs to talk to Andy Buford more about pronouncing place names in and around Plymouth. The pronunciation of St. Budeaux is "bew dough".
Oh dear. My regional pronunciations have let me down again. Mind you, I'd be fascinated to see a Devonian have a crack at Slaithwaite, Darwen or Aspatria!
As always great content Nigel & Richard as good as if not better than a railway magazine lol 😂 I don’t think this will count towards where in the world but I’m watching this in Marmaris Turkey 🇹🇷 on holiday 👍🏻
A Cat A SPAD is an old term and it just means it wasn't a signalling fault - a CAT B was a signal that was green, for example, turning to red all of a sudden. No chance for the driver to take any action. There are farrrr more than 12 Cat A SPADS per year, there have been at least six on GWR alone since January. Cat A is SPAD and Cat B is now SPAR (Signal Passed at Red - meaning it was red but there was no danger)
Non starter I'm afraid. Nowhere near long enough - I suspect would struggle to take even 200m and that's before we considered the movement conflicts of stuff going into Platform 13/14,
I am a retired HST driver, having spent 28 years on them. I never once had a total failure that left me unable to move. New traction will never reach such levels of reliability.
Elephant in the room; Why is a 20 foot overrun a CAT A SPAD? Because the level crossing ahead didn't have barriers down when a train was approaching - no overrun. That seems bad practice and it could equally well have happened to a Scotrail train. On our local level crossings the barriers are brought down before a train approaches a station and stops at it, despite the major extra delays caused to road traffic. I think that's a national standard now, so why wasn't it done at Morar? Seems a Network Rail problem rather than WCML.
Once again the report comes out,then another,so on and so forth, it proven that there’s trouble ahead, rail will fall, so instead of stalling, get finger out and push on with as many people that can to build it and build it now. The longer you take the more it will cost, lessons not learned
Gold plating and feather bedding. Watch the horror with which these 2 industry analysts treat the word pragmatic. How dare the industry want to do something cost effective. Look at IEP. Millions spent on trains, when practically all that was needed was some new electric locos and some upgrades to the existing stock. This would have delivered all that was needed at a fraction of the cost, so it was never going to happen. Same with HS2. Rather than limit the acceleration out of the Euston platforms, the plan is to extend the tunnels to make a crossing speed 70mph rather than 40mph.
The existing stock you refer to with iep was over 40 years old. There were issues over the procurement which made the stock more expensive than they needed to be and much of the issue with hs2 was contract procurement as well. Rather than riding around on ancient stock whilst sitting in the vestible outside the toilet, because there's no seats, let's look at getting better value for money when we do occasionally invest in better quality things.
@@benphillips5041 Not wholly true. The IC225 was 15 when IEP was launched in 2005 and the HSTs were 30. The Ml3 coaches and class 43s had been massively updated and were liked by the operators and customers alike. They were neither outdated nor disliked Unlike the 800s, which cost 5 times the leasing cost, which was picked up by the passenger fares and the taxpayer. I used to use the service to Bristol. Trust me, it was a wholly better passenger experience before the 800s were introduced, at a cost of over £7bn.
Hi, Nigel and Richard. Will you be covering the multiple problems occurring on and around the Class 94-based train in the new BBC drama, “Nightsleeper”? I think the technical advisor may well be Rishi Sunak. The recent incident at Abington on which you have just reported, and my watching last night of Episode 2 (of 6) have prompted me to suggest that you cover this groundbreaking programme in a future “just a bit of fun” section of your wonderful weekly production. Howlers abound! Best wishes to all.
In a way this is worth a de bunking and a P. take as yet again the very safe railway is potrayed as a death trap on wheels ( OK we all love a Movie train smash and thats from some of the earlyest films ) But given the very negative press that rail gets we realy don;t need this , it is a very unorignal and over worked bit of fition full off contonuity gaffs , realy the BBC scrapping the barral ........Gary anderson at Thunderbirds did it much better with a run away monorail built on the cheap ! a classic episode
It seems to be a norm that official reports take their own sweet time to come out - and it's not just in the UK. In the US, the NTSB is often criticised for taking up to two years to come out with their reports into accidents.
If you hurry investigations, you can reach incorrect conclusions. A proper investigation takes the time it takes. If there are important issues identified early on, the RAIB put out interim 'learning points' and safety digests, to get swift action taken while the investigation continues.
I do feel it a bit unfair on WCRL by highlighting that spad, one spad I do think you should look into was the freightliner spad at Trent valley jnc Stafford when 90006 evaded Tpws and was very close to a head on collision. The RAIB report is now available to this mishap. Many thanks for the work you put into this. Tony
It's not at all unfair to highlight the SPAD by WCRC. As they explain in the podcast, this is potentially a CAT A SPAD and they are very few of those. It is also against a backdrop of WCRC having an *appalling* safety record and blase response to incidents, comparatively - and with that train in particular! If that doesn't fit the definition of 'newsworthy' then I don't know what does...
I will assume you don’t have access to any daily rail logs, the spad I highlighted when a class 90 totally avoided any TPWS interaction is not only a danger to the train it nearly collided with, but should open eyes industry wide that TPWS is not as robust as most take it to be.
@@wurlyone4685 Not convinced. Why is a 20 foot overrun a CAT A SPAD? Because the level crossing ahead didn't have barriers down when a train was approaching - no overrun. That seems bad practice and it could equally well have happened to a Scotrail train. On our local level crossings the barriers are brought down before a train approaches a station and stops at it, despite the major extra delays caused to road traffic. I think that's a national standard now, so why wasn't it done at Morar? Seems a Network Rail problem rather than WCML.
Just an thought processes. Let's say HS2 phase 1 Euston to Birmingham is built. Reasonable rounding allowed lets say 70 Billion for a 130 mile journey as the crow flies. So cost, divide by miles, divide by 50 year break even, divide by 365, divide by 30 trains a day, divide by lets say average of 250 people per train gives a per mile ticket cost of around £3.90. Times that back by the 130 miles and to break even on capital cost alone for infrastructure not including capital costs for stock and operational costs, a HS2 ticket would have to cost a minimum of £512 single... We talk about building capacity which is fair let amongst other things but the numbers don't add up for direct passenger usage even with later phases. Edit: I did something stupid and made a comment in a UA-cam video where people don't have discourse but instead treat people's ideas and opinions that differ from their own as some form of personal assault. Remind me not to waste my time ever again!
Infrastructure returns value in more ways than just charging for direct use. It was never expected to return its cost in fares, however the redevelopment of old oak common is expected to be worth up to £7bn a year to the uk economy. Then you have the redvelopment around Euston, Birmingham, etc, these don't even feature fully on the bcr, nor does the possibility of additional revenue on the existing lines for services enabled by released capacity You've also underestimated the number of trains London birmingham which would be about 54. Then you'd have around 54 to Manchester, many also to Liverpool and Glasgow too.
@benphillips5041 value and revenue aren't the same thing if it needs to pay for itself and your stumping up the cash! And I would argue some of the value is just inflating the bubble. High house prices along the route? We already have house prices far in excess of value, see China for details on how well that's going. More prosperity doesn't always mean more tax take and anyone with the brass to travel at speed and cost to Birmingham has the M40 and a Mercedes. Now turn it into a slower speed alternative with more stations and traffic I.e. more customers I.e. lower costs and higher income potential you still get the spurious value benefits you talk of but a higher revenue too and a realistic chance of it paying for itself inside of the next 50 to 100 years.
Without addressing opportunity cost for running more trains on WCML, 8 trains per hour for 18 hours per day is 288 trains in both directions, not 30, and 250 passengers is probably an underestimate. By building the high speed railways, France now has Ouigo which offers budget airline fares on many routes, and with other operators entering the market. Fast trains means more journeys per day for the train and competes on price with coaches and airlines.
@@rafchris @rafchris you're first missing the point of hs2 in the first place. The existing lines is how stations in between are served and allow growth in passenger numbers attracted to higher frequency services. It would also allow new stations to be built, such as Coventry East, which encourages new housing around the new stations. How does the 9bn lower Thames crossing payback? How does the 27bn earmarked for roads over the next 5 years payback? Very little infrastructure is paid for purely by charging for direct use.
@benphillips5041 I'm not sure I am missing the point as the person paying for it I.e. the tax payer. How about cancel hs2 and don't out up taxes or make pensioners freeze in the winter. I understand we need more capacity, but I'm also saying hs2 isn't going to give it in its current form. I would like to see more detailed study done of national travel patterns at a holistic level i.e all modes so we can model how best to serve the needs of the one thing everyone forgets in their arguements.... people. The way we live, work, socialise and relax has fundamentally changed and our transport has to change with it. And the idea that infrastructure can't pay for itself is nonsens. We have been doing it for years with bridges and more recently roads. If roads are going to be taxed by usage then it's only fair other modes are funded or taxed similarly plus or minus incentives to push an agenda like the economy or the environment, whoever you need to win votes off tomorrow
Hi, we publish links to things we mention in the Blog section of our website as Additional Resources. You can find this episode's links here: www.greensignals.org/green-signals-episode-51-additional-resources/
I'm a bit late to the party... but if this isn't HS2 then what is it? Ugh you just know that these plans will get lost in a myriad of red tape and it won't happen again
The basic logic of buying something on HP (ie a car) when it comes to infrastructure investment is so wrong, as a country with our own central bank, borrowing public money is akin to borrowing from ourselves the government should review their self imposed fiscal rules and get building, imposing more austerity will mean any meaningful growth is for the birds. BTW Richard love the flamecut in the background.
@vlt14 or more specifically do you buy a new Ferrari on HP or a Corsa with cash? The answer depends on your requirements and if you have more money than sense. End of the day they will both get you down the road and back, but which one was adequate for the job
I think HS2 ltd should just finish the line from Old Oak Common to Birmingham and leave the North to deal with building their end, It can not just be left abandoned, the reason the cost got out of control is because nimbys over the Chilterns Hills demanded a tunnel, We cannot carry on running High Speed trains on a full capacity WCML line built in 1840.
@@jonpotter5536 And how else did they builds the M40 near the chiltern hills without a 10 milles tunnel, most of the railways are in cuttings and out of sight from the nimbys brigades.
@andrewhotston983 True, there are communication gaps throughout the chilterns that the railways, tubes and motorways wind and climb through. The problem is that HS2 has to go in straight lines and can't handle gradients! Tunneling was always planned through the chilterns. It's a feeble excuse to pretend that the cost increased from £15bn up to £60bn plus because of chiltern nimbys!
HMG/DfT will want a WCML extension(s), that benefit Liverpool, Scotland, Lancashire and Manchester. Not just one city, Manchester. Surprise, surprise, report is commissioned by Manchester's mayor. So slanted for sure. Liverpool needs to be the prime focus as the expanding port needs to move to electric freight, vastly reducing road trucks. Passengers to Liverpool are vastly underserved. WCML wires are under powered so the city suffers and the North of England as their local big port is less inefficient tan it should be. Needs fixing ASAP.
The current annual average for CAT A SPADs is only 14/year - so yes, there's no reason why they couldn't report on every one, if they chose. Plus don't forget the added context that WCRC have an appalling safety record - particularly for that train - a backdrop which doesn't apply to other operators. HTH :)
I completely dispute your comment on their safety record. It's actually pretty bloody good. Have you ever looked at the safety record or other tocs, some are utterly appalling
Re the SPAD, overspeed, heavy coupling of the carages and HS2. Why didn't the either crap TPWS or the ATP that were put in to stop SPAD's, stop or greatly slow the train down? Was t like in another company you mention was the APT disconnected. As for the West Coast engine hitting the coaches, every time I have seen this movement there is a rail employee hand signalling to the driver the closing distance. Do modern drivers not have a hand book or I pad of the rules of the iron road like in BR day's? You ignore the past at your peril. But that's life today. Also, I understand that other than shutters or tanks all other engines travel with there tenders at the rear giving the driver or fireman a clear view of the road ahead. Again that was the rule in BR day's. Lastly re the much needed HS2 was built on the wrong route with much much greater cost and environmental cost, tunnels, viaducts ect. Most could have used the Graet Central GC as it was built for the contental gague and mostly straight. Why concentrate on Birmingham? Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield then to Edinburgh etc. With a link at Northampton to Birmingham, Manchester, Carlisle and Glasgow. This would have cost less and less environmental damage, as long as it's electrified, with 25kV.😅 Also, re-building the white elephant terminus at Birmingham, is stupid who builds a station as a terminus other than at the coast. It should have been built as a straight through one with trains terminating much further on e.g. Glasgow, Edinburgh etc. I would recommend subscribing to the .gov RAIB updates to railway investigations. Their reports are excellent and as an engineer make intresting reading, especially the holes that keep escaping from Swiss cheese. Just found your UA-cam channel. I have been reading Rail for meny years. Thank's
Regarding the quiz answer: Richard, I think you're being far too - and uncharacteristically - charitable by allowing electronic token exchanges. Crew hardly have to "drop" or "pick up" anything!
Just on the car finance analogy Richard gave, couldn’t that just been done and done cheaper with normal Government borrowing? Or am I missing something?
The safety record bears out that fear. It's all a question of what is societally deemed to be a tolerable rate of accidents, injuries and fatalities. Some countries put a higher threshold on that, some a lower - see also: gun deaths.
Oh dear… 🤦🏻♂️ the nice big pay rise is firstly over 3 years, but realistically over 5 years (no increase for 2 years), so that would be 3% per year, way less than inflation! You need to stop reacting to media bollox about stuff like this, it makes you look stupid, Train Drivers are not paid by tax payers, unlike Politicians and their second homes/expenses package/heating of second homes/cleaning of their moat (true story!). Also, illegal migrants in hotels etc…unbelievable amount of tax payers money.. are they paying tax and safely driving hundreds of people to their destination all day…no. So have a little word with yourself
A 400kph railway network for the UK was never going to happen. Pointlessly fast, pointlessly expensive, rubbish cost benefit ratio. Whoever in government signed that off needs their head examined. Hopefully in 20 years a government will plan new 125mph railways to bypass any existing congested sections. That is all the UK needs.
If you want to see what really happens when you build high speed infrastructure, look at the growth of high speed train services in France, Italy and Spain. There is competition between state operators (SNCF in Spain, Trenitalia and Renfe in France) and the private operators are arriving. You need to do some research before making statements like pointless and rubbish. Or just listen to Nigel and Richard.
@@andrewhotston983are roads not funded by tax payers? What’s the difference? Both move people and goods around? As property is built, so are more roads, so why do we not need more rail track infrastructure to also deal with greater demand? Seriously, the lack of brain capacity is staggering
1. If cancelling Phase 2 of HS2 was "monumentally stupid", why hasn't Keir Starmer reversed the decision? 2. There IS an alternative - doing nothing. Many areas of the country do without any form of train service whatsoever! 3. Claiming that building Phase 1 of HS2 will cause the end of Inter City services to Stoke on Trent, etc is just comical, because the logical conclusion is that train services will be better if HS2 Phase 1 is never opened! Please try to think before you utter this kind of nonsense.
The logic of the statement for (3) is that Manchester trains will run on HS2 Phase 1 and therefore no longer go via Milton Keynes and Trent Valley stations, though Stoke-on-Trent would still be served, and there is no platform capacity at Manchester to run any trains to London via WCML. The reference to Stoke-on-Trent is presumably that there will no longer be regional connectivity between Stoke-on-Trent and the aforesaid Trent Valley Stations and Milton Keynes. Potentially LNWR could fill the gap, but much slower.
It's not nonsense though, it's fact. The HS2 trains now have to run on the existing tracks north of Birmingham. Those tracks are full. The only way you make space for the HS2 trains, is to cancel some existing slower ones that currently run on those tracks. The only way to avoid that, is to build the new line north of Birmingham (or stop all HS2 trains at Birmingham - which makes absolutely no sense economically, or from passenger use perspective). They're the facts and it's as simple as that, I'm afraid.
@@wurlyone4685 So HS2 is a "jam tomorrow" project! Phase 1 is useless without Phase 2. And doubtless Phase 2 won't work without extra work. And so it goes - that's how the rail industry money pit works. It's so blatant and so bad that even Labour, who instinctively hose taxpayer's money around, baulk at reviving Phase 2!
![Wolfram Physics Project: Working Session Wednesday, Apr. 29, 2020 [Finding Black Hole Structures]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SbDzqlOLIZA/mqdefault.jpg)
I think you guys should have a look at the Swanage railway. They announced this week they've had to cancel their steam gala for later this year, and they are in serious financial brown stuff, begging for donations to stay afloat. It's a beautiful railway, and I think it would be a real shame if it doesn't make it.
I think you're being over-dramatic. They've cancelled the autumn gala because the hoped for guest loco/s wasn't/weren't available. They had the big gala in the spring, remember
@AndreiTupolev but they've announced they need hundreds of thousands of pounds to survive the remainder of the year? So loss of revenue from the cancelled gala will not help at all
Ashley Down on Metro west Railway opens 27th September official opening and passenger opening 28 th September 2024 on The Bristol Temple meads station to Filton Abbey station and Filton North and Henbury line with bus interchange
@@6etallr The fundraising campaign has actually been going several months and was accompanied by sensible retrenchment. A major contributory factor for the steam gala cancellation was a bridge bashing incident which stops them bringing guest locos in by rail. Grrrr ... and it sounds like they didn't catch the lorry driver. Anyway, the line is indeed well wort supporting and there are some good new initiatives including a rail/boat/bus combined ticket.
Well done another cracking show l like the new format
Thanks Richard, glad you like it!
@GreenSignals not sure if youve both seen the news about First group have bought out Grand union trains. The Stirling to london Euston operations has been renamed Stirling trains limited on company's house l.
Was talk First wanted more units/carriages for lumo and hull trains and given Hitachi charging stupid prices will First perhaps put a big order in
Nigel’s analysis of the DfT I couldn’t help but think of the line from Sir Humphrey Appleby “months of fruitful work” 😂
Excellent!
You guys crack me up. Well done another great show. Really entertaining.
We do try!
Again, as a current freight train driver, I can’t see a good reason for not using a member of groundstaff to call the Scotsman back onto the train, either setting back with radios or hand signals.
Considering the fact that Scotsman has a corridor tender, the rules should be amended to allow staff into the corridor ONLY for the purposes of setting back and reverse signal sighting.
My own employers rules don’t allow a driver to move a locomotive without good, clear vision in the direction of movement. I’m not allowed to set back with a 66, I have to change ends and drive it. If, for some reason, that’s not possible (defective cab for example), then a competent person must be present to set the loco back from either the rear cab or the ground. It’s just safer.
As for the Peterborough overspeed incident, I think we have a sleeping giant of a disaster on our hands with regard to the reliance on overspeed grids.
The grids are OFTEN set incorrectly OR incorrectly spaced. Driver diagrams are getting more and more torturous, which is (rightly or wrongly) causing more of these sorts of incidents. This in turn, is increasing the reliance on the TPWS and AWS systems.
Although it’s not 100% relevant to this specific incident, it’s relevant to overspeed issues in general. For example; there are at least 5 TPWS overspeed grids on my own route card, that are set to the incorrect speed, or spaced incorrectly. Even after multiple reports and activations by my colleagues, nothing has been rectified. In these 5 cases, we know about them because they trigger at speeds that are slower than the signposted decrease in line speed. So how many are there on the network that NOBODY knows are set incorrectly, with the speed too high? We would only ever find out when a train comes screaming through at a much higher speed than it should be, by which time, it’s too late. In my own opinion, it feels like a sleeping issue, waiting to rear its ugly head, a bit like gauge corner cracking did…
The specific incident at Peterborough would be cleared up in future once ERTMS comes into effect on the ECML.
Also, who offered me a mainline cab ride in a steam locomotive?! I’m still waiting to find out how I get involved 😅
Super. Enjoyed on a sunny Saturday in Zakinthos.
Not remotely jealous Kate as I look out of the window at a rainy Wiltshire field…..
@@GreenSignals thanks Richard. Fortunately still 10 days before returning to Somerset. Keep up the super work and thank you all.
As a new subscriber, I would like to thank you both for the brilliant content and presentation. As a lifelong steam enthusiast, I am really getting interested by the intricacies of running a modern railway .
Thanks for the fantastic feedback, we really appreciate it, and hope that you continue to enjoy the show!
Looks like the members podcast has gone out on the main podcast feed rather than episode 51 guys- my podcast addict app and Spotify seem that way at least! Looking forward to listening 👍
Odd! Should all be okay now. Thanks for the heads up.
HS2 without continental loading guage seems totally stupid and will just create extra costs later
I doubt if the savings would amount to much.
It wouldn't save anything in the long-term.
@@JohnnyZenithPlease show your workings.
Hello from us all at The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group.
A big thank you to green signals as well, we've had a number of new followers on our social media pages join because they've heard our name mentioned on your show. 👍
Cheers guys. Much appreciated and great that you’ve got new members too!
Thanks
I just can't see the point of continuing without using continental loading guage.
I thought that and capacity were the main reasons to justify HS2 in the first place.
Anyway, great information as always.
Ian
Thanks Ian, really appreciate your support.
I seem to remember the arguments by the anti's about reducing the speed got countered by a number of experts who stated that any small saving in construction costs was more than lost by needing to buy more trains to run the same service, and that was before the cost of more drivers and greater maintenance costs. Then, of course, there's the higher maintenance cost of ballast over slab track.
Agree only way to deliver real savings by reducing speed is to take advantage in a more flexible alignment taking advantage not only of tighter radius turns but also the lower noise foot print.
@@grahamariss2111 But then you make the line longer, therefore more expensive, and the longer the journey takes the greater the number of trains you need to run the same service.
I suspect Simon that this report is all about taking one bite at a time - and the ballast v slab analysis will be revisited
@@GreenSignals I certainly hope so.
Tender first running can be problematic, due to visibility difficulties and undue wear on the wheels. There is really a need to provide turning facilities or to use locomotives more suitable, such as 2-6-4 tranks or BR classes with cut-out tenders and rear-facing spectacle plates. A class 4 2-6-4 tank should be up to the job if converted for oil firing.
Absolutely embarrassing. The fact it isn't just being built in full. Ridiculous wrangling and stupid costly downgrades.
And poor clienting. Constant meddling, chopping and changing.
What an impressive double-act. Having read "RAIL" magazine for decades, it was a pleasure to hear Nigel speaking; I shall return in the future.
Wonderful…. People like you should be in charge of all the “HMGOV “ investigations. You say what you know and admit when you need more information.
I agree Mike. We should be in charge of everything. What could possibly go wrong!
@@GreenSignals Seconded!
Absolutely riveting. Thankyou.
Thanks Marilyn!
Ah but is it the right number of rivets? 😁
The Jacobite.....the train that keeps on giving!
Another great episode. Excuse me for what might be a naive question, but how do overspeed incidents get reported? Does eg the signalling system identify it and instigate an investigation, or what? Love the major aspects of the podcast of course, but I also think what some may believe to be more 'minor' railway trinkets are true gems, eg the fact that Pete Waterman OBE has at last had a locomotive named after him is pure gold - the man is not just a rail enthusiast, but very knowledgeable about the industry, as much as he is about music production! And personally, the news about Wye signal box is fantastic - I used to pass it every day commuting to London.
Under certain circumstances, there can be an alert given: i.e. if the rolling stock and signal are TPWS fitted; speed is below 75mph; and it's a 'right direction movement'.
If not, then it's simply down to humans (those involved; those observing; or those who review data e.g. otmr after) to identify and report it.
In any event, no investigation is instigated 'automatically' - it always relies on a person (driver, signaller etc). reporting it to control/responsible managers/raib/orr etc.
Thanks for another great utube broadcast
Liked the hs2 light
Shame about the royal mail class 325s going up for sale
Be great if you could do a shoew on these excellent units
What's next now for 325s
We’ll do some digging.
NO NO NO!! BUILD IT IN FULL, EASTERN LEG TOO!!!
Do agree that would have been best solution.
Fascinating stuff about HS2. You mentioned that the report about salvaging a new version of HS2 to Manchester was compiled by Andy Burnham and the former West Midlands mayor Andy Street. You also had some harsh, but justified, words to say about Michael Fabricant. Perhaps as the 'life partner' of Andy Street, Michael Fabricant could have been a bit more well disposed towards HS2?
The latest report is by Burnham/Arup/Higgins. You know Higgins the ex HS2 head, the master of keeping costs down. HMG/DfT/HS2 have zero involvement with the report. It is all slanted towards befitting Manchester, surprise, surprise. Big Liverpool with its large massive port is ignored. Not worth looking at.
Riviera stock often operated on railtours starting in the midlands . WCRC moving it all to carnforth is a bad business descision as it would involve a big increase in Empty stock moves or a large decrease in midlands starts of railtours. This would be a golden opportunity for WCRC to create a second operating base and expand it's business.I can see LSL jumping in and grabbing a really well placed base.
Thus was great again well done
Thanks very much, glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic work as always keep up the awesome work ❤❤❤❤
Very kind, thank you!
The other question coming out of the sale and movement of Riviera Trains stock to WCRC, is what it means for Nemesis Rail; its staff at Burton; and not just the stabling capacity at Carnforth, but the capacity; competency; and quality of their ability to maintain the additional stock and the new systems (CDL etc.).
It will certainly be interesting to see how this develops. Lots of interfaces.
The 1975 crash at Nuneaton illustrates the devastation that could happen after an overspeed incident
We've written off 1and severely damaged 2 more LRV's in overspeed over turnout incidents in the past 3 years. Each one deemed complacency by the driver. The physics are beyond what most people imagine. We have been fortunate in no life threatening injuries occurred.
West Coast Rail have form for SPADe it was highlighted by the ORR in the same report that (eventually) made them finally bodge central locking on their ancient carriages. They only care about extracting as much money as they can from their visitors.
Re Crash Vs Collision. In the original and strictest definition, a collision requires that both objects are in motion. Crash is therefore appropriate.
Well done - another great video
Thank Rob, glad you enjoyed it!
I like the new format, getting the headlines out first before the incidentals makes it more accessible. There's a reason why ITN and BBC use this running order!
WCR are becoming a bit of an embarrassment to the heritage sector. I have had some sympathy with them over the CDL issue, in spite of your views, but after the other safety infringements they have had, they are starting to get the sector a bit of a bad name. Their statement about "safety being our first priority" starts to look like a load of BS.
Excellent, thanks Marion. We will be sticking with the new format again this week.
I would argue that the incident at Craven Arms on the 22nd was more serious when there was a near miss with a HGV on a level crossing because the train approached when the barriers were still up, on the RAIB safety digest there is a photograph of the HGV which was a tanker with a hazchem panel on it
The potential for danger from a SPAD is greater than ever on a level crossing due to drivers being controlled by their phones or being distracted by warning chimes as they drive. The idea that they should come to a halt and look to see if any train is coming even at a level crossing with barriers is something they'll never do.
As for the Flying Scotsman incident where was the person giving hand signals to the driver telling them how far they had to go before contact is made with the loco and coach buffers or do you just back up and hope for the best in the UK.
Good points re someone giving hand signals or at least assisting with the move. Will be covering that next week, as we also have some news from the RAIB.
I was surprised by the speed the 180 managed to get up to at Spital Jn. My only experience of them was one journey from St.Pancras to Derby and I do remember thinking they accelerated damn quickly, until the emergency brakes suddenly came on and left us stranded until the driver was able to isolate the fault.
The 180's were catastrophic in terms of reliability.
@@BibTheBoulderTheOriginalOne Indeed, the air supply for the toilets was on the same reservoir as the brakes. So a fault with a toilet would cause the emergency brakes to apply. Crazy design.
Regarding the Grand Central point over speeding case. I think some drivers are taking their own loco cams (Go Pros and other brands) to back up what they saw at the time of the incident.
Maybe there should be a prewarn feather on a special indicator giving the driver time to slow down for diverging from the Mainline. It is not that repeater signals are a new thing to the railway network.
With a special alarm ring tone to the normal one this hopefully will mitigate these occurrences.
Class 180s have forward facing CCTV so why would they need another cam, or is the CCTV system still mono?
@@stuart48br I suspected there might have been a unit with a camera on them. I suspect from the other units drivers could use their loco cams.
@@billmmckelvie5188 From memory, they are all fitted with forward facing CCTV but it would have been mono when the trains were built
A few months I heard Michael Fabricant on "Any Questions" on Radio 4 saying that if they built HS2, it should run in to Birminham New Street.
It just seemed to sum up his total ignorance of the purposes of the scheme.
Important rule when it comes to speaking about railways. Level of knowledge appears to be inversely proportional to confidence in one's own opinion.....
Fabricant is little more than an embarrassment to the Conservative party, frequently commenting on issues he has no idea about.
@@GreenSignals
Terminal stations in inland cities is madness.
@@GreenSignalswhat makes it even more unbelievable, is that Fabricant's partner, is Andy Street - who knows full well the implications of cancelling HS2, was unequivocal about that and is part of the team behind this latest report trying to rescue it!
How Andy and Michael survive pillow talk, is quite mind boggling 🤷
+Brilliant as always
thank you both
You've very welcome indeed.
@@GreenSignals Thankyou!
The Severn Valley incident was entirely avoidable and I feel sorry for the person involved in that was no safe system of work to protect them. There is a great deal of uninformed criticism of the Health and Safety Executive, but their work on preventing falls from height has saved many hundreds of lives.
The oddity is that the charitable trust has been charged £48,000 costs over and above the fine by a Whitehall organisation, on what appears a fairly clear cut case. I haven't seen if there was any appeal or disagreement with the charges to cause such costs. Maybe if they wrote their reports a bit quicker, their costs would be less?
Or perhaps Pete Waterman's could make them a donation through the RBF?
I'm glad you guys talked about the BBC "In Depth" piece, I was exited when I saw it but was dissapointed when I read it
I think we will have to cover it a bit more next week given the nonsense that has been spouted on 'X' about how "impressive" it was (Not).
@@GreenSignals It will give you another opportunity to use that magnificent word 'tropes' Richard (btw, pronounced as in 'ropes'!!!)
@@GreenSignals Yes, please cover.
I trust the BBC and although I agree that Panorama has become lightweight (current fashion) I went to view the edition you mentioned. To me it was just a report on the financial history of HS2 and some important issues of how the taxpayer is treated. Could you briefly explain directly what your issue is/issue are with the program (without any 'knowing' remarks)? Then say exactly what final budget you would consider acceptable for each of the original phases. Appreciated.
The fact that you trust the BBC, puts you at a disadvantage from the start.
Great analysis of the not-HS2 report, be interesting what way the gov will go. Just imagine how many 100s of years it will take for a UK wide network!
Jacobite in the news again, you need to go on location!
Hopefully digital signalling will stop those junction over speeding. Driver seemed to just expect to go straight ahead and just assumed no feather. RAIB said a lumo just ahead of the train went straight on the main line so why did the GC train need to go via platform 1?
Good to see Richard using his GS mug!
The Avanti failure seemed to be handled well but just so so slow. How does it take 4hrs to get a rescue train either to pull the loco or evacuate passengers. Don't we have easy access thunderbird locos anymore?
Whether politically required or not, sadly this report follows the long HS2 tradition of building a worse railway for more money - whether the additional cost is from future maintainence or just the cost or redesigning everything over again.
On the plus side, that loco naming must be some of the most wholesome footage on UA-cam
On the controversy around HS2 from my perspective at least is that it’s been more about HS2 didn’t go far enough north than should it be done at all. I suspect there is quite a north-south divide of opinion on it as people I spoke to about it would like it to go up to Newcastle.
Yep, it was the genuine levelling up project Ben.
It'll be disappointing in that the number of interesting visitors (locos) to Burton will be reduced when the Riviera sets go. Hopefully it doesn't affect the viability of Nemesis.
Thanks. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
Not a railway man but if "feathers" are so critical in signaling a fast train over to a slow track why are they not flashing or rippling? After all the great British motorists ONLY ever "see" flashing lights or do feather signals flash and I'm wasting my time? As I said I am not a railway man but I do find your videos/discussions very interesting, thank you.
That’s a very interesting point Steve. We’ll ask the question…..
As for the Scotsman accident, doesnt the fireman usually act as lookout?
Yes!!!!!!!
As the show came to an end shortly after Richard was making fun of Nigel's pronunciation, may I point out that Richard made a complete hash of pronouncing Tondu. Oh, the shame! 🤣
my question regarding phase 2b in this case is how would this work with the line being used by freight occasionally. do they just divert all the freight while they improve the existing line? the current line still uses semaphore signalling
I don't really understand why we can't build things properly in the United Kingdom. Everything is always downgraded, the scope cut down and the projects never finished. We have been doing it as far back as far back as the M1 (with it being cut back in scope and even then took forever to actually get into Leeds).
Other Western European countries have been building high speed lines in bulk and reeping the benefits. In the long run, we need the capacity and it will reduce the number of domestic flights. It will be more expensive to bulld such a line in the future, so it's best to invest the money sooner than later.
When did we stop being able to do any major infrastructure project properly?
We can. Our idiot politicians would rather play politics than finish what they started. Long-term vision falls by the wayside. All this ridiculous wrangling when we could just build HS2 in full as already planned. This present Burnham plan etc is inferior.
@@dizzy2020there is plenty of infrastructure built on the continent though, look at the way the Spanish high speed network has been extended for example.
Nigel, tut tut! 5 white light Junction indicator! Not feathers. 1, 2, 3, to the left for routes to the left 3, 4, 5, are routes to the right. No JI the route is straight ahead. Another issue here is something that came to light in the inquiry into Paddington-Ladbroke Grove 1999. The number of times the driver might have driven a train over that route to maintain competence.
@izzieb 2010, when Nick Clegg claimed that a new fleet of nuclear power stations would take 11 years to produce power. We started hitting a power capacity crunch in 2021. You can only kick the can down the road so far.
@@dizzy2020 The idea that the UK does not need high-speed rail because most of our major cities are within 200 miles is stupid, the Scottish Central Belt cities are 350 miles from London, the Shinkansen and LGV networks both have lines less than 200 miles (LGV Atlantique main line to Tours is roughly the same length as HS2 phase 1), and the UK being smaller just means that we don't need to build as much to get a high-speed network of comparable scale to other developed nations.
The UK is among the worst in Europe when it comes to long-term planning, public investment, having efficient planning laws. properly handling risk and uncertainty in large projects and controlling the scope of projects, there are there are whole books and academic papers on the topic.
Thanks!
Thanks very much Alan, that's really kind of you.
Quiz answer.
Was the first Municaply owned motor bus service from Eastbourne Railway Station to the old town. Ran by the Ilfracombe Motor Coach Company.
Richard clearly needs to talk to Andy Buford more about pronouncing place names in and around Plymouth. The pronunciation of St. Budeaux is "bew dough".
Oh dear. My regional pronunciations have let me down again. Mind you, I'd be fascinated to see a Devonian have a crack at Slaithwaite, Darwen or Aspatria!
@@GreenSignals Nigel puts hands in pockets, gazes at the horizon and whistles, saying nothing....!!
HS2 in drag.
Oy the title is giving ‘I can’t believe it’s not butter’ energy.
As always great content Nigel & Richard as good as if not better than a railway magazine lol 😂 I don’t think this will count towards where in the world but I’m watching this in Marmaris Turkey 🇹🇷 on holiday 👍🏻
Thanks Stevie. Not at all jealous at the thought of you being in Mamaris, Turkey. Hope it's lovely and warm. Miserable and wet here in the UK.....
Thanks
Thanks for the support, we really appreciate it.
@@GreenSignals you’re welcome! I’d already posted a proper comment, seemed silly to copy it.
A Cat A SPAD is an old term and it just means it wasn't a signalling fault - a CAT B was a signal that was green, for example, turning to red all of a sudden. No chance for the driver to take any action. There are farrrr more than 12 Cat A SPADS per year, there have been at least six on GWR alone since January. Cat A is SPAD and Cat B is now SPAR (Signal Passed at Red - meaning it was red but there was no danger)
On the Pendolino fault, I believe they managed to fix the unit in situ after a while and it rescued itself.
Ironic that you cover an item on a SPAD on a channel called Green Signals 😮
WiIl NPR be built to the UK or continental loading gauge?
Don't the signals approaching spital junction show a flashing amber to indicate to the driver that they are being turned off ?
re Spital Junction: why not flash all feathers when they are active?
How hard would it be to re-instate Manchester Mayfield station for the "not HS2" terminus, or is it a none-starter.
Non starter I'm afraid. Nowhere near long enough - I suspect would struggle to take even 200m and that's before we considered the movement conflicts of stuff going into Platform 13/14,
@@GreenSignals Thank you for the reply.
That Pendo failure was a shambles, hours to clear the line!
I am a retired HST driver, having spent 28 years on them. I never once had a total failure that left me unable to move. New traction will never reach such levels of reliability.
Dont forget he had waterman railways for years
Elephant in the room; Why is a 20 foot overrun a CAT A SPAD? Because the level crossing ahead didn't have barriers down when a train was approaching - no overrun. That seems bad practice and it could equally well have happened to a Scotrail train. On our local level crossings the barriers are brought down before a train approaches a station and stops at it, despite the major extra delays caused to road traffic. I think that's a national standard now, so why wasn't it done at Morar? Seems a Network Rail problem rather than WCML.
That BBC Panorama programme was lazy tripe normally equated to Daily Mail.
What ever happened to the AeroLiner3000 concept? Anyone know?
Once again the report comes out,then another,so on and so forth, it proven that there’s trouble ahead, rail will fall, so instead of stalling, get finger out and push on with as many people that can to build it and build it now. The longer you take the more it will cost, lessons not learned
Does the reply cost money? How is it ordered?
Gold plating and feather bedding. Watch the horror with which these 2 industry analysts treat the word pragmatic. How dare the industry want to do something cost effective.
Look at IEP. Millions spent on trains, when practically all that was needed was some new electric locos and some upgrades to the existing stock. This would have delivered all that was needed at a fraction of the cost, so it was never going to happen.
Same with HS2. Rather than limit the acceleration out of the Euston platforms, the plan is to extend the tunnels to make a crossing speed 70mph rather than 40mph.
The existing stock you refer to with iep was over 40 years old. There were issues over the procurement which made the stock more expensive than they needed to be and much of the issue with hs2 was contract procurement as well. Rather than riding around on ancient stock whilst sitting in the vestible outside the toilet, because there's no seats, let's look at getting better value for money when we do occasionally invest in better quality things.
@@benphillips5041 Not wholly true. The IC225 was 15 when IEP was launched in 2005 and the HSTs were 30. The Ml3 coaches and class 43s had been massively updated and were liked by the operators and customers alike. They were neither outdated nor disliked Unlike the 800s, which cost 5 times the leasing cost, which was picked up by the passenger fares and the taxpayer.
I used to use the service to Bristol. Trust me, it was a wholly better passenger experience before the 800s were introduced, at a cost of over £7bn.
Tyndrum pronounced Tyne Drum \m/
Did not know that, thanks.
Hi, Nigel and Richard. Will you be covering the multiple problems occurring on and around the Class 94-based train in the new BBC drama, “Nightsleeper”? I think the technical advisor may well be Rishi Sunak. The recent incident at Abington on which you have just reported, and my watching last night of Episode 2 (of 6) have prompted me to suggest that you cover this groundbreaking programme in a future “just a bit of fun” section of your wonderful weekly production. Howlers abound! Best wishes to all.
In a way this is worth a de bunking and a P. take as yet again the very safe railway is potrayed as a death trap on wheels ( OK we all love a Movie train smash and thats from some of the earlyest films ) But given the very negative press that rail gets we realy don;t need this , it is a very unorignal and over worked bit of fition full off contonuity gaffs , realy the BBC scrapping the barral ........Gary anderson at Thunderbirds did it much better with a run away monorail built on the cheap ! a classic episode
It seems to be a norm that official reports take their own sweet time to come out - and it's not just in the UK. In the US, the NTSB is often criticised for taking up to two years to come out with their reports into accidents.
If you hurry investigations, you can reach incorrect conclusions. A proper investigation takes the time it takes.
If there are important issues identified early on, the RAIB put out interim 'learning points' and safety digests, to get swift action taken while the investigation continues.
Pragmatic? Prat magic!
It is not Tondooooo after Bridgend but Tondeeeee as it’s pronounced please…. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️👍
I know I know I know. Aargh!!!!! I'll never live it down.......
@@GreenSignals we will still let you in after all, don’t worry!
I do feel it a bit unfair on WCRL by highlighting that spad, one spad I do think you should look into was the freightliner spad at Trent valley jnc Stafford when 90006 evaded Tpws and was very close to a head on collision. The RAIB report is now available to this mishap. Many thanks for the work you put into this. Tony
It's not at all unfair to highlight the SPAD by WCRC. As they explain in the podcast, this is potentially a CAT A SPAD and they are very few of those.
It is also against a backdrop of WCRC having an *appalling* safety record and blase response to incidents, comparatively - and with that train in particular!
If that doesn't fit the definition of 'newsworthy' then I don't know what does...
I will assume you don’t have access to any daily rail logs, the spad I highlighted when a class 90 totally avoided any TPWS interaction is not only a danger to the train it nearly collided with, but should open eyes industry wide that TPWS is not as robust as most take it to be.
@@wurlyone4685 Not convinced. Why is a 20 foot overrun a CAT A SPAD? Because the level crossing ahead didn't have barriers down when a train was approaching - no overrun. That seems bad practice and it could equally well have happened to a Scotrail train. On our local level crossings the barriers are brought down before a train approaches a station and stops at it, despite the major extra delays caused to road traffic. I think that's a national standard now, so why wasn't it done at Morar? Seems a Network Rail problem rather than WCML.
Just an thought processes. Let's say HS2 phase 1 Euston to Birmingham is built. Reasonable rounding allowed lets say 70 Billion for a 130 mile journey as the crow flies. So cost, divide by miles, divide by 50 year break even, divide by 365, divide by 30 trains a day, divide by lets say average of 250 people per train gives a per mile ticket cost of around £3.90. Times that back by the 130 miles and to break even on capital cost alone for infrastructure not including capital costs for stock and operational costs, a HS2 ticket would have to cost a minimum of £512 single...
We talk about building capacity which is fair let amongst other things but the numbers don't add up for direct passenger usage even with later phases.
Edit: I did something stupid and made a comment in a UA-cam video where people don't have discourse but instead treat people's ideas and opinions that differ from their own as some form of personal assault. Remind me not to waste my time ever again!
Infrastructure returns value in more ways than just charging for direct use. It was never expected to return its cost in fares, however the redevelopment of old oak common is expected to be worth up to £7bn a year to the uk economy. Then you have the redvelopment around Euston, Birmingham, etc, these don't even feature fully on the bcr, nor does the possibility of additional revenue on the existing lines for services enabled by released capacity
You've also underestimated the number of trains London birmingham which would be about 54. Then you'd have around 54 to Manchester, many also to Liverpool and Glasgow too.
@benphillips5041 value and revenue aren't the same thing if it needs to pay for itself and your stumping up the cash!
And I would argue some of the value is just inflating the bubble. High house prices along the route? We already have house prices far in excess of value, see China for details on how well that's going. More prosperity doesn't always mean more tax take and anyone with the brass to travel at speed and cost to Birmingham has the M40 and a Mercedes.
Now turn it into a slower speed alternative with more stations and traffic I.e. more customers I.e. lower costs and higher income potential you still get the spurious value benefits you talk of but a higher revenue too and a realistic chance of it paying for itself inside of the next 50 to 100 years.
Without addressing opportunity cost for running more trains on WCML, 8 trains per hour for 18 hours per day is 288 trains in both directions, not 30, and 250 passengers is probably an underestimate. By building the high speed railways, France now has Ouigo which offers budget airline fares on many routes, and with other operators entering the market. Fast trains means more journeys per day for the train and competes on price with coaches and airlines.
@@rafchris @rafchris you're first missing the point of hs2 in the first place. The existing lines is how stations in between are served and allow growth in passenger numbers attracted to higher frequency services. It would also allow new stations to be built, such as Coventry East, which encourages new housing around the new stations.
How does the 9bn lower Thames crossing payback? How does the 27bn earmarked for roads over the next 5 years payback? Very little infrastructure is paid for purely by charging for direct use.
@benphillips5041 I'm not sure I am missing the point as the person paying for it I.e. the tax payer. How about cancel hs2 and don't out up taxes or make pensioners freeze in the winter. I understand we need more capacity, but I'm also saying hs2 isn't going to give it in its current form.
I would like to see more detailed study done of national travel patterns at a holistic level i.e all modes so we can model how best to serve the needs of the one thing everyone forgets in their arguements.... people.
The way we live, work, socialise and relax has fundamentally changed and our transport has to change with it.
And the idea that infrastructure can't pay for itself is nonsens. We have been doing it for years with bridges and more recently roads. If roads are going to be taxed by usage then it's only fair other modes are funded or taxed similarly plus or minus incentives to push an agenda like the economy or the environment, whoever you need to win votes off tomorrow
Have you two seen the news on Cardiff crossrail on bbc news ?
No. Do tell more...
Link to report…?
Hi, we publish links to things we mention in the Blog section of our website as Additional Resources. You can find this episode's links here: www.greensignals.org/green-signals-episode-51-additional-resources/
I'm a bit late to the party... but if this isn't HS2 then what is it? Ugh you just know that these plans will get lost in a myriad of red tape and it won't happen again
They are however better plans than nothing at all. So fingers crossed for some momentum to build!
The basic logic of buying something on HP (ie a car) when it comes to infrastructure investment is so wrong, as a country with our own central bank, borrowing public money is akin to borrowing from ourselves the government should review their self imposed fiscal rules and get building, imposing more austerity will mean any meaningful growth is for the birds. BTW Richard love the flamecut in the background.
@vlt14 or more specifically do you buy a new Ferrari on HP or a Corsa with cash? The answer depends on your requirements and if you have more money than sense.
End of the day they will both get you down the road and back, but which one was adequate for the job
I think HS2 ltd should just finish the line from Old Oak Common to Birmingham and leave the North to deal with building their end, It can not just be left abandoned, the reason the cost got out of control is because nimbys over the Chilterns Hills demanded a tunnel, We cannot carry on running High Speed trains on a full capacity WCML line built in 1840.
How else did you expect to get a railway over an 800ft range of hills if not in a tunnel?
@@jonpotter5536Only an idiot would build a railway over the highest point when there are plenty of gaps.
@@jonpotter5536 And how else did they builds the M40 near the chiltern hills without a 10 milles tunnel, most of the railways are in cuttings and out of sight from the nimbys brigades.
@andrewhotston983 True, there are communication gaps throughout the chilterns that the railways, tubes and motorways wind and climb through. The problem is that HS2 has to go in straight lines and can't handle gradients! Tunneling was always planned through the chilterns. It's a feeble excuse to pretend that the cost increased from £15bn up to £60bn plus because of chiltern nimbys!
@@jonpotter5536 Yes, High speed railways do need very broad curves (or straights). However, high speed trains have phenomenal grade climbing ability.
HMG/DfT will want a WCML extension(s), that benefit Liverpool, Scotland, Lancashire and Manchester. Not just one city, Manchester. Surprise, surprise, report is commissioned by Manchester's mayor. So slanted for sure.
Liverpool needs to be the prime focus as the expanding port needs to move to electric freight, vastly reducing road trucks. Passengers to Liverpool are vastly underserved. WCML wires are under powered so the city suffers and the North of England as their local big port is less inefficient tan it should be. Needs fixing ASAP.
Tondoo? Tondu pronounced Tondee.
I know - apologies....!
@@GreenSignals Snork.....!
Are you going to report on every Cat A spad now?
The current annual average for CAT A SPADs is only 14/year - so yes, there's no reason why they couldn't report on every one, if they chose.
Plus don't forget the added context that WCRC have an appalling safety record - particularly for that train - a backdrop which doesn't apply to other operators.
HTH :)
I completely dispute your comment on their safety record. It's actually pretty bloody good. Have you ever looked at the safety record or other tocs, some are utterly appalling
@@HIDI-f5z You can dispute all you like. The facts say otherwise, however.
Re the SPAD, overspeed, heavy coupling of the carages and HS2.
Why didn't the either crap TPWS or the ATP that were put in to stop SPAD's, stop or greatly slow the train down? Was t like in another company you mention was the APT disconnected.
As for the West Coast engine hitting the coaches, every time I have seen this movement there is a rail employee hand signalling to the driver the closing distance.
Do modern drivers not have a hand book or I pad of the rules of the iron road like in BR day's?
You ignore the past at your peril.
But that's life today.
Also, I understand that other than shutters or tanks all other engines travel with there tenders at the rear giving the driver or fireman a clear view of the road ahead.
Again that was the rule in BR day's.
Lastly re the much needed HS2 was built on the wrong route with much much greater cost and environmental cost, tunnels, viaducts ect.
Most could have used the Graet Central GC as it was built for the contental gague and mostly straight.
Why concentrate on Birmingham?
Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield then to Edinburgh etc.
With a link at Northampton to Birmingham, Manchester, Carlisle and Glasgow.
This would have cost less and less environmental damage, as long as it's electrified, with 25kV.😅
Also, re-building the white elephant terminus at Birmingham, is stupid who builds a station as a terminus other than at the coast.
It should have been built as a straight through one with trains terminating much further on e.g. Glasgow, Edinburgh etc.
I would recommend subscribing to the .gov RAIB updates to railway investigations.
Their reports are excellent and as an engineer make intresting reading, especially the holes that keep escaping from Swiss cheese.
Just found your UA-cam channel.
I have been reading Rail for meny years.
Thank's
Not built to the continental loading gauge. Not particularly straight. Goes to the wrong places. Forget the GCR.
Regarding the quiz answer: Richard, I think you're being far too - and uncharacteristically - charitable by allowing electronic token exchanges. Crew hardly have to "drop" or "pick up" anything!
I know, it was a bit surprising of him really, wasn't it! He was clearly feeling a bit generous this time...
@@GreenSignals Still, a cracking show once again
Just on the car finance analogy Richard gave, couldn’t that just been done and done cheaper with normal Government borrowing? Or am I missing something?
Oddly, the pension funds (dependant on risk) can often provide capital at a cheaper rate that government borrowing.
Nothing more strange to me than the British and their absolute fear of grade crossings.
We just get easily horrified at so many videos on UA-cam showing collisions on US "grade crossings"! 😉
The safety record bears out that fear.
It's all a question of what is societally deemed to be a tolerable rate of accidents, injuries and fatalities.
Some countries put a higher threshold on that, some a lower - see also: gun deaths.
Binning phase 2 had to be done as HS2 is an obsence money cesspit. HMG has better and more serious matters to fund.
Like freebies for cabinet ministers?
Maybe the ASLEF train drivers could use their nice big no-strings pay rise to fund Phase 2 of HS2?!
😴
Oh dear… 🤦🏻♂️ the nice big pay rise is firstly over 3 years, but realistically over 5 years (no increase for 2 years), so that would be 3% per year, way less than inflation! You need to stop reacting to media bollox about stuff like this, it makes you look stupid, Train Drivers are not paid by tax payers, unlike Politicians and their second homes/expenses package/heating of second homes/cleaning of their moat (true story!). Also, illegal migrants in hotels etc…unbelievable amount of tax payers money.. are they paying tax and safely driving hundreds of people to their destination all day…no. So have a little word with yourself
A 400kph railway network for the UK was never going to happen. Pointlessly fast, pointlessly expensive, rubbish cost benefit ratio. Whoever in government signed that off needs their head examined. Hopefully in 20 years a government will plan new 125mph railways to bypass any existing congested sections. That is all the UK needs.
Why do we have domestic flights if the UK is small enough for 125mph max?
@@73APhotographyBecause domestic flights make a profit - not something that high speed rail will ever do!
If you want to see what really happens when you build high speed infrastructure, look at the growth of high speed train services in France, Italy and Spain. There is competition between state operators (SNCF in Spain, Trenitalia and Renfe in France) and the private operators are arriving. You need to do some research before making statements like pointless and rubbish. Or just listen to Nigel and Richard.
@@stuart48br All funded by taxpayers, via the EU.
@@andrewhotston983are roads not funded by tax payers? What’s the difference? Both move people and goods around? As property is built, so are more roads, so why do we not need more rail track infrastructure to also deal with greater demand? Seriously, the lack of brain capacity is staggering
HS2 is the BIGGEST waste of Money EVER
One of the biggest, certainly.
So you prefer cars and Lorries on the road instead yeah 👍🏻🤦🏻♂️
By what measure?
1. If cancelling Phase 2 of HS2 was "monumentally stupid", why hasn't Keir Starmer reversed the decision?
2. There IS an alternative - doing nothing. Many areas of the country do without any form of train service whatsoever!
3. Claiming that building Phase 1 of HS2 will cause the end of Inter City services to Stoke on Trent, etc is just comical, because the logical conclusion is that train services will be better if HS2 Phase 1 is never opened!
Please try to think before you utter this kind of nonsense.
The logic of the statement for (3) is that Manchester trains will run on HS2 Phase 1 and therefore no longer go via Milton Keynes and Trent Valley stations, though Stoke-on-Trent would still be served, and there is no platform capacity at Manchester to run any trains to London via WCML. The reference to Stoke-on-Trent is presumably that there will no longer be regional connectivity between Stoke-on-Trent and the aforesaid Trent Valley Stations and Milton Keynes. Potentially LNWR could fill the gap, but much slower.
@@stuart48brSo just don't open Phase 1 of HS2!
It's not nonsense though, it's fact.
The HS2 trains now have to run on the existing tracks north of Birmingham.
Those tracks are full.
The only way you make space for the HS2 trains, is to cancel some existing slower ones that currently run on those tracks.
The only way to avoid that, is to build the new line north of Birmingham (or stop all HS2 trains at Birmingham - which makes absolutely no sense economically, or from passenger use perspective).
They're the facts and it's as simple as that, I'm afraid.
@@wurlyone4685 So HS2 is a "jam tomorrow" project! Phase 1 is useless without Phase 2. And doubtless Phase 2 won't work without extra work. And so it goes - that's how the rail industry money pit works. It's so blatant and so bad that even Labour, who instinctively hose taxpayer's money around, baulk at reviving Phase 2!
You're not equating Starmer with sense are you?
Thanks!
Many thanks Bob. Much appreciated.
Thanks
Thanks Chris - always really appreciated! Cheers. Richard
Thanks
Thanks Paul. Much appreciated.