I agree, absolutely! Sell the 302 and upgrade to a Sound Devices 552. The movie was about how to get good sound out of a consumer grade recorder like the H4n with your SD 302. So far, I have 36,000 views on this video based mostly on H4n users trying to figure out how to get good sound. The answer is, you can't get great sound on of a $300 consumer grade recorder. Get the 552 and be done with it. Note: mic tech hasn't changed in 50 years. Buy the best mic you can afford & don't look back.
G'day Roland, I've been searching, looking, reviewing so much over the Internet about sound recording from DSLR's and mic's etc, etc, I must say that THIS one is the best by far for information concerning how and what to do when recording audio to be put onto a recorded video. I'm only an amature when it comes to all this but you've given me so much of a head start with professional type information. Many thanks for your vid, Cheers, Kev.
You are welcome!!!! Note, the Zoom H4n line input is somewhere between pro +4 and consumer -10 dbu. It is designed to accept the output from a guitar pre-amp. That's why you have to attenuate the SD-302. You can go straight into most recorders like a Fostex without attenuating the output using most field mixers. But for the Zoom, if your mixer won't attenuate, then you may have to buy attenuated patch cables in the range of -10 to -25 dbu.
The mic plugs into the SD 302 field mixer. Check out my movie "Sound Devices 302 Field Audio Mixer Overview" for more info. The mic goes into the mixer, then the mixer output goes into a recorder like the H4n.
I noticed something you may not have seen in the newer 302 User Guide that makes what you demonstrated easier and makes better use of the 302 meter. In the older UG on page 20 there is Advanced Gain Structure and Interconnection. In the newer UG on page 22 there is the same heading BUT they added a previously undocumented feature called Full Scale Tone. That sets up a connection to any recorder so three things happen: there is no clipping, the 302 meter is sync'd up with the recorder meter, and the 302 meter runs to full scale (20 dB) before clipping! That last part is an improvement. This method is like what you show but even better! Anyone can download the latest 302 UG from SD. The limiter threshold stays at 20 dB. However, I did adjust the H4n record level to 70 which is higher than you recommend to get 302 full scale meter (20) to correspond to just under clipping on the H4n. When the 302 limiter kicks in, the H4n does not clip. And I suppose this is buried somewhere in the H4n manual but I assume when the the two input buttons 1 and 2 flash that means clipping? I used this exact same technique when I first used a 302 a few months ago to drive channels 3 and 4 into a Sound Devices 744 four channel recorder (which has only two mic preamps). It worked perfectly.
Thank you for the tutorial! I just picked up a nice used 302 for recording audio. What a difference this thing makes compared to just the field recorder. I wish I knew this a few years ago when I got into filmmaking.
Thank you for your thoughtful response! You asked why my Zoom might not be co-located with my preamp (which is a MixPre-D). The reason is due to the logistics of my shoots. I shoot videos of rock bands in small clubs, and as a result, I have to be very adaptable as to camera placement, mike placement (lots of times this isn't even an option), etc. The acoustics can range from wonderful to horrifying, and as a result, I find myself relying on the onboard mikes of the Zoom fairly often.
I don't know much about impedance transformers, however, the zoom phono plug inputs are for a pre-amped guitar signal, which is somewhere between mic level and pro line level. Attenuating the SD-302 pro line output by 10 to 25 dBu matches levels. When using the phone plugs, the zoom volume control is, I am pretty sure, just an attenuator, not an amplifier; its mic preamps are cut out of the circuit.
You can get only mono sound out of a mono shotgun mic, however all field mixers have a pan switch on each input channel that lets you assign the the mixer output bus going left, right or center (equal on both). I always use center sending the signal equally to the left and right channel on the Zoom. That's how I did it in the movie. That is why you see two patch cords.
I've been looking at upgrade solutions for weeks, but i'm on a tight budget, thank you for this insight Roland, I've been using the H4n for a couple years now and it's been a swiss army knife for my productions, but my mind was blown when I saw your setup here, i'm tempted to spend my money on the 302 instead of a middle of the road recorder/mixer and utilise this setup!
hahaha omg it killed me when you started yelling LOL. but in all seriousness, thank you so much for these 302 tutorials. very helpful for my work! I'm a video producer, but my company is small so I have to learn all the audio stuff as well and this is coming in very handy. keep up the good work sir
Hi Lee. I've made some changes to the movie taking into account what you (and others) have said, but I still can't bring myself to run the 302 limiter at +20 dBu, I prefer the 302 limiter at +10 dBu, syncing the 302 0 tone to the Zoom at -12 dBFS. This leaves -2 dBFS on the Zoom at the extreme top (for the Yelling!! exercise). When recording dialogue, most of it ends up at 12 to 0 dBu on the 302 and -24 to -12 dBFS on the Zoom. In the field, it's hard to get the 302 to +20 dBu, anyway.
That's exactly right. But it's a hell of a crucible. And there's nothing quite like it when you know you've nailed both video AND audio and won't have to spend hours in post fixing countless mistakes. In any case I applaud your efforts to help other sound/video guys and appreciate your help.
I've watched some of your videos too! DIY, how to videos get a lot of views and help people. The Sennheiser G2 wireless setup is great for your kind of shooting. The Lavalier mic goes everywhere with no wires. You can even plug the receiver into your camera for really good sound without doing the post production audio swap. Audio is more important than video, even in feature length films. Stay with it, you're gonna be a STAR!!
A note about levels - front end equipment like field mixers are usually analog using VU meters that don't clip but distort somewhere at +10 to +20 dBU. They produce the best sound up around 0 dBU. Recorders and cameras are usually digital with meters that "Clip" above 0 dBFS on their scale. Therefore, when you sync a 0 dBU tone from the (analog) SD302 you should set the Zoom (digital) level at -12 to -18 dBFS. In the movie, I reduced the input by -2 dBFS; go lower for more headroom.
Yes it could. The Zoom needs to stay in the sound bag with the 302. The Zoom combo jacks are unbalanced inputs when using 1/4 inch phone plugs. Once you sync the Zoom to the 302, and start recording, you need to lock its control panel and forget about it. Volume control is done on the mixer. The Zoom becomes a kind of on-board recorder for the mixer. Why would you ever put the recorder away from the mixer anyway? Thanks for watching!
Great "how to" thanks Roland! brilliant, amazing the recording never clipped toward the end, this is really helpful, thanks for taking the time to share and like the way it's shot.
Hi, I use the XLR outs on the MixPre-D, but set to line level. I run balanced XLR to 1/4" TRS cables from the MixPre-D to the Zoom, and that is where I seem to have problems. The Zoom line-in (it's coaxial with the TRS input) isn't set up for true line out levels - it's basically set up to receive instrument (guitar) level inputs, which are at a much lower level then professional line outs.
thanks for your response. I have no clue what I'm doing about sound but you make sense. I only have a zoom H4n but I'm clueless about the set up. I'm saving up for the SD-302 so I can just copy what your saying.... Love your videos. THANKS!!
Great video!!! Thanx!!!! I've seen many people saying Zoom H4n (and pro) hasn't LINE IN input, and that you have to use external XLR pad attenuators (-20db) to use input 1 & 2 for line in signal. I got an answer from Zoom saying i can use the 3.5mm back input for line in. As well as, the 1 & 2 input, but in this case i have to set the line out of the Shure FP33 mixer to MIC. I can confirm this watching your video, and the way (and cables) you make the connections. Thank you!!!
Thank you so much Roland :) I am sorry I'm just getting back with you. I actually preordered the h6n :) I can't wait to get it... but I will definitely do more research on the G2 and G3 systems. Thank you so much... And believe it or not, I watch a lot of your videos... You guys are getting me through this :) Thanks a lot!!!
Yes, each input channel on the 302 has a pan switch, left, right, or both. That said, if the 302 was panned to the middle, I guess you could set the H4n to either mono or stereo. If you are using more than one mic then things get more complicated as in do you want to record separate tracks in the H4n, etc.
Yes, sound needs to be recorded at the subject, not from the camera. So, you can't get around using a remote mic. The preferred workflow is to record sound wild using a great mic and recorder (probably not the H4n). The wild sound can be recorded in long takes. In post, you use DualEyes or PluralEyes to replace the cruddy camera audio with your superior wild audio.
Thanks. Yes, the Sennheiser G2 or G3 (new) wireless mic is a great set-up for run n gun audio. I was on location for a Discovery Channel shoot for a new pilot a few months ago. The sound guys used G3s wired on the actors with short shotgun mics just aimed into the room to pick up ambient sound. The next step up is Lectrosonics wireless at about $2,000. Go with the Sennheiser, you won't be sorry.
Ohh i just investigated, i thought the 302 was a recorder just as the 702 but it's just a mixer, thank you for your response Roland a big salute from Mexico.
I'm finding out now that using SD-302 or Senn. G2 or G3 wireless going into the H4n, we should keep the H4n volume at below 50. Try it yourself by plugging in headphones on the H4n with no mic plugged in. The noise floor drops out at about 50 volume. Set input attenuation to get good bars at
I think the bottom line when using a cheap recorder is to keep its volume, trim, fader, whatever, low, and input signal high, thereby knocking down its self-noise. That way, you end up with a digital file with a pretty good signal to noise ratio that can be amplified in post. Increasing the 302 volume would have given an even better SNR, but the one I got worked ok. Read some of the comments. This movie has been a real learning experience for me and others.
The Zoom file will be a regular stereo .wav clip with exactly the same sound on both the left and right channels, correctly phased. If you want mono, then you can separate the left and right channels into their own mono tracks or mixdown the stereo file into a mono file in post. What you never want to do is record only one side of a stereo track in the recorder. If you forget to break it out, then your video editing mixdown will send your audio to just one speaker.
I just cranked up my 302 as you did, and yes, max gain produces lots of hiss, but that is normal in analog devices. Listen to me carefully! You don't play your stereo at max and you don't drive your car with the pedal to the floor. Your goal is to amplify your mic in a comfortable range so that your digital recorder gets solid 1's and 0's. You amplify the "pristine" 1's and 0's in post. It's like in photography, a perfect digital image can be blown up to billboard size and look great.
Janis, I've never maxed out a 302 so I don't know what that sounds like. If you are recording bird sounds in the woods you should set the level to the 0 dBu range while talking into the mic at about 3 feet. With my mics, that is about 2 o'clock on the gain with fader straight up. That way your set-up will hear what a person would hear in that environment. You should amplify the bird sounds in post because they will record at about -48 dBFS.
This is a pretty nice setup. I've been going back and forth with setups I like and this is definitely a decent way to go. Thanks for the ideas. As if I needed more choices.
well i experimented with the Sound Devices Mix Pre-D and Zoom H5n , I was able to do the same thing here but just didnt like the sound. its good to try and experminent and KNOW your equipment. Thank you for this video. I use the Zoom H5n for fast, LIGHT, run and gun whether attached to the camera via Sescom cable or as a separate recorder. The sound devices is a great tool , I love my Mix-Pre-D.
You are correct, the 302, or any analogue mixer, should run up around 0 dBu vs. -18 dBFS on the receiving digital recorder. I didn't know that when I made the movie. Viewer comments pointed that out, including a comment from a guy at Sound Devices, thus the post-it notes added in the movie. I think the reason the sound was pretty good was because I got lucky and ran the H4n volume at only 55 thereby reducing its self-noise and giving me a pretty clean SNR for amplification in Soundbooth.
The 302 defaults to line level out, however the zoom 1/4" jack is neither line nor mic level. It is somewhere in between, thus, we have to lower the 302 output to match. Watch the movie again to see how that is done. You cannot use a Zoom H4n with a standard field audio mixer because its line level output is too hot for the Zoom XLR (mic level) or 1/4" jack (quasi-line level) inputs.
Thanks for the quick reply, I found a 3-year old secondhand Fostex FR 2 at a good price, I think it would be a good buy as I can't afford the SD 552 mixer/recorder at present.
You can do it that way if you want to, or if you link 1 and 2 and just use the left input you end up with dual mono which is the same sound on both the left and right channels. Actually, the Zoom can record up to, I think, 4 channels at once. For UA-cam type recording, I always just use one mic with the Zoom channels 1 and 2 linked so that I end up with dual mono - the same sound coming out of the left and right speakers.
Looking at the LS-100 manual, p. 130, you have 3 ways to input external mics: 1. mic/line - 3.5mm plug located on the side of the recorder (high-mid-low); 2. XLR (balanced) (high-low); 3. Standard phone (unbalanced) (low). I'd probably start with the fixed Standard phone input and attenuate the SD-302 output to get a mid range setting on the LS-100 volume control. Email Sound Devices tec support and maybe attach a pdf of your LS-100 manual. The SD guys are responsive and helpful.
The Zoom xlr inputs are mic level only and route the incoming signal through the Zoom mic pre-amps. Zoom xlrs are for plugging in a mic direct, not the line level output from a field mixer, which has its own pre-amps. The Zoom phono plugs are for inputting the pre-amped signal from a guitar, which is way hotter than mic level but less than normal audio line level, thus the attenuation at the SD-302. Read the "show more" above for more info. Thanks for watching.
The first part of the video was recorded on a Fostex FR2-LE then H4N when the pix in pix pops in. Both were processed in Soundbooth to add gain, w/compression, and hard limit. Regarding the SD302, if you don't have a field mixer that has the option to lower the output level, then you should forget about this movie and just use a good short shotgun mic hooked to the Zoom using its XLR input. See my post below that starts "I paid $995. . .".
I do, the MKH 415 says it all. I've got the same (30 year old) mic, but it is 12v T power, kind of a pain in the field. I use a Fostex FR 2le. for recording. It's kinda bulky but pretty good sound for the price. Actually, that's where I got the idea to use 1/4" phone plugs. The Fostex phone plug input cuts the trim controls out of the chain. It is line level straight in, controlled only by the fader dial.
Set up an RCA to TRS patch cord or adapter. If you can get bars on the Zoom in the -12dBu range while dialing its volume between, say, 25 and 100, you are ok. If the input is too hot so that your Zoom volume needs to drop to like 1 or less, you will need to get attenuated patch cords at about -10 to -25 dBu.
The Fostex is kinda bulky but it will work for what you want. It always works well for me. Note, try the unbalanced 1/4" plugs into the Fostex for best recording. The 1/4" input is the default line input in the Fostex. You will notice that the trim controls are cut out of the chain when you input using phono. I presume that this takes the Fostex mic pre-amps out of the chain also, leaving you with just pure SD 302 amplified sound.
The end product comes out of your TV, computer, phone, etc. on just a left and right stereo channel. Dialogue is nearly always recorded in mono, panned to the center, coming out equally on the left and right. If you have ever turned on the evening news, and the featured speaker's mic was turned down, you would just hear a weak signal being picked up on other mics. Conversely, 10 minutes earlier he was probably in the mens room taking a piss. You don't want that on the air.
Ya, it's kinda strange. I ordered the TecNec XLR F to 1/4" from Markertek following your advice but I ordered the "wrong" one, i.e. the XLR F- SPS one--STEREO type, and I used it with G3, connected the same way as you did in the video, and it worked without any problem. I later also ordered the Mono one which will arrive tomorrow. I will try it in the same setup but I don't know if I can tell the difference. With Sound Devices mixers, there are just many ways to set it
So, I mount my Zoom on the hot shoe of my cam, which I generally place as high as possible in order to clear the craniums of showgoers and to avoid the annoying and dull viewpoint of cam looking up at musician. The internal mikes of the Zoom are especially useful when I can't use my external mikes and have to use the feed from the soundboard, which almost always excludes the guitar and bass - in fact, it's frequently just the vocals.
I think you are right, which is why the 302 defaults its limiter at +20dBVU and the Zoom limiter kicks in at, I think, -6 dBFS. I'm pretty sure that the Zoom volume is only an attenuator, so the perfect set up would be more like: 302 attenuated to get 0dBFS on the Zoom with vol. wide open, then dial down the Zoom to get bars at -18dBFS. When recording, run the 302 up at -10 to +10 dBVU which will keep it happy, and -28 to -8 dBFS on the Zoom which will keep it from clipping at 0dBFS. ehh?
I don't have one, however a quick look at the DR 100 manual shows that its line input uses a 1.5 mm stereo plug. But it doesn't say if its line level is -10 dBv (consumer) or +4 dBu (pro, including the SD 302 and most field mixers). If the DR 100 line input is pro level then the 302 should go straight in, if lower then you will need to attenuate the 302 similar to the Zoom. Either way, try to keep your recorder volume control somewhere in the middle.
You could stick the 302 and zoom into a shaving bag and leave it and the mic up on the podium or at the foot of the stage if your speaker moves around a lot. Both devices will run for hours unattended. The best set-up would be to use a Sennheiser G2 or G3 wireless lavaliere mic plugged directly into the zoo. Check out my movie Sennheiser G2 G3 wireless to Zoom H4n . . . to see how that works. You will use DualEyes in post to swap your camera audio with clips drawn from the zoom file.
I use DualEyes, a stand alone program, that syncs the Tascam sound to the video clips. When I shoot, I usually just leave the sound recorder running while I am shooting all of the shots in a scene or at a location. So, at the end of the day, I end up with, say, 100 video clips (with camera sound) and maybe 10 to 20 audio clips. Just put everything into 1 folder, start the program, and magically your video clips end up with the new sound replacing the original camera sound.
Thanks very much Roland. Got it new, today! On my 1st attempt I wasn't connecting any recorder like a Tascam or anything. I was just expecting to attach the mike (ntg2), get levels on the LED, and be able to monitor (hear myself) as I speak without it going into anyhting like a recorder or a camera! I will keep trying and let you know...Thanks for the videos..
I don't have a Canon XF300, however the xlr inputs are switchable to line level. I suspect that the pro-level Canon will want the default +4dB line level output from the SD-302. The Canon peak limiter kicks in at +20dB, the same as the default peak limiter on the SD-302, so I think that I would just lower the peak limiter setting on the SD-302 somewhat for safety, then set the 302 trim and fader at unity. Finally, adjust the Canon trim to tone while trying to keep its fader near unity.
Uhh, yes, if you buy the Scarlet Pro I/O Module for $3,750, which can handle the line input from a field mixer. Otherwise, basic Scarlet amps your mic directly. If you are in the $15-20 K range you should talk to Red about it. If you are looking for budget, look at Black Magic Cinema Camera and Sound Devices 552 mixer / recorder (5 channel) for a total of $6 K. Thanks for watching.
The DR 100 manual is not clear about how you connect a line level output from a mixer (p. 26). It shows mics being connected directly using the xlr connections and line in using a 1.5 mm miniplug. I'm sure you can figure something out. Go for it. Set it up so that the MM-1 is cranked up pretty high and the DR 100 running in that - 18 to - 12 dBFS range. Test the recorded file by playing it in your editing program. Then, in post production you raise the audio peaks up to the desired level.
I haven't tried a H6 yet, just experiment. However, I'm not so sure the 1/4" plug helps that much on the H4n now either. I got that idea from using the Fostex FR-2LE in which the 1/4" plugs absolutely cut out any gain (trim) allowing a pro line level input. The key to good sound on the H4n is setting up for good bars with recording volume only around 50. Read my other posts about listening to the H4n with headphones and no mic plugged in. That may apply to the H6 but I don't know for sure.
The key to remember here is you're recoridng at 24bit, which substantially reduces the noise floor. So you should calibrate the 302 at 0dbu to -20DBFS on the H4n. The limiters on the 302 are great so can be left at +20dbu, because they will kick in around -12. If you have them set as low as -10 they will kick in much earlier reducing your average level. -10db headroom, at 24bit post can do anything with it when recorded at 24bit. Dialogue is perfect anywhere between -20 to -12 with peaks at -12
Thanks for your comment. The main thing is that the audio you hear never comes from the camera. I always use the Sennheiser G2 lavalier mic or a good short shotgun mic mounted close (especially for voice over) recorded separately. I use DualEyes to replace the camera sound in post. The JuicedLink guys sell equipment that lets you use external mics to record in the camera, and that works great too. Bottom line, you need to record audio no more than a foot or two from your voice source.
You can get good results using XLR cables into the H4n if you keep the H4n volume at around 50. Try this . . Listen to the H4n using headphones with its volume cranked up to 90 and no microphone plugged in. Make sure line 1/2 is selected and it is armed to record. Now adjust recording volume up from 0 to 100. You'll start to hear noise/hiss at about 50. You can even record it if you want to. Best setup is attenuate the 302 to get 0 dBu vs -18 dBFS on the H4n at H4n volume around 50.
Set your field mixer (SD 302, etc) output to center. Zoom settings are: Mode = Stereo; Input Settings = Level Auto Off, 1/2 Link On, Mono Mix Off, Phantom Off, Plug-In Off.
Uhh, if you are recording in the camera then you don't need the H4n recorder. However, your camera needs to have a "line level" input to receive the signal from the output bus of the 302. 302 to H4n is for recording wild sound that you sync with and replace the poor camera sound in post using DualEyes or PluralEyes.
Yes, all of the audio geeks (including an engineer at Sound Devices) recommend -18 to 20 dBFS on the Zoom to prevent activating its limiter at 0 dBFS. However, this set up is for normal dialogue not extreme yelling into the mic. The example is to show that it would not clip when abused. I still like the higher levels that result in regular dialogue recording at -24 to -12 dBFS. Thanks for your comment.
Oh, and that's the entire point of running a line-in instead of a mike-level input to the zoom - to avoid the Zoom's preamps (which I haven't found to be quite as noisy as has been made out to be, but still), allowing me to set the Instr1/Instr2 input level to .1%, thus virtually eliminating the Zoom's preamps from the equation.
I've done that before in the video editing mixdown with a mono recording I did off the floor. What I did was copied the one mono track( now there are 2 tracks in the timeline) and panned it L for one side then panned the other one to the R. I'm pretty sure that was stereo, the movie has a stereo soundtrack anyway...
I like the Edirol R44...but like you tell about limiter. At R44 i.e. Sucks with a BIG S...even the backnoise will rise aswell...I was like what the O_o .The zoom alone is in this way similar if not worse but more handy. Thanks for the video you have shared with us.
David, additionally, use the SD-302 tone generator at 0 dBU while setting the R-44 bars at -12 dBUFS. When recording, keep the SD-302 bars peaking up in the 0 dBU range. Your R-44 will record at about -12 to -24 dBUFS resulting in perfect sound!
Yeah, as I messed around with it more I got a good setting, basically 0 tone from the SD setting the zoom rec level to 45. The reason I'm even throwing the zoom in the mix with a 552 is because u can record 4 ISO tracks into the zoom ;-) the 552 records just the streo as I'm sure you know. I'm great at sound and get good sound now as it is out of both, ur video interested me because I never thought to use the "line" in to by pass the mic pre on the zoom & didn't know how good the lim was on zoom
I use a pair of Shure A15AS (switchable attenuator) when using line-level sources and it eliminates the clipping and there sure isn't this noise floor like you're getting.
Yes, but most field mixers (pre-amp) put out only a pro level line feed that is way too hot for the zoom. The SD 302 works because its output can be adjusted downward, but it is expensive at about $950 used on ebay. Think about buying a used Sennheiser G2 wireless mic on ebay for $4-6 hundred. Check out my movie Sennheiser G2 G3 Wireless to Zoom H4n . . . You would end up with both a lavaliere mic and a plugon transmitter that would work perfectly with your NTG-2. Check it out.
Yes, the correct setup is to attenuate the 302 to get: 302 0 dBu tone = -18 dBFS on the Zoom with Zoom volume set at 50. The important part is Zoom volume should never go much over 50. Listen to the Zoom on a headset with no mic plugged in. Noise gets crazy when recording volume exceeds 50, go all the way to 100; hit record, then play it back. What you hear is what you get no matter what is coming in from a mic or mixer. 37,000 views and viewer input has refined the setup. Thanks to all!
I see. yeah it was way too hot. I'm glad that I recorded without Mp-1 for backup. now we're using the sound instead. thank you again and i'm looking forward to check out your videos more....
Thank you Roland for your support :) Thanks for viewing my hair vids lol... but I wasn't doing any of this to continue that. I am actually going to shoot some drama movies. You know, the kinds of things to submit to film festivals etc... Would you still suggest the audio equipment (G3 and Mke600)? Thank you again for being so prompt in answering my million questions lol
Hi, I'm getting a bit confused with the discussion on recorder quality. I thought the whole purpose of this video was to bypass the preamps on the recorder and use the higher quality 302 kit. So therefore whatever recorder is being used would not make a difference to the quality of the recording. I'm trying to setup a 302 to Zoom H6 via a Sanken CS-3E as per instruction sin this video.
I live in St. Louis City, and every year I like to record gunfire on New Years Eve. I set up my 302 and digital recorder to sound great while speaking into it from 2 to 3 feet. Then, I stick the mic out my 3rd floor window and go get something to drink. Later, when I load the audio file into Soundbooth, the wave form is very small but I can hear people talking and guns going off for blocks around. Go try this set-up in the woods. Don't overload your mic chain. Let it hear what you hear.
Thanks, very much for your answer. I was thinkig about the best method : My son goes to the university and wanted to registered the lesson. You know sometimes it is not allowed, so I was thinking in a hiding method. He seats in the middle of the class.
Yes, you have to use DualEyes or PluralEyes in post to replace your camera audio with the Zoom recording. Check out my film Sennheiser G2 G3 Wireless to Zoom H4n , , , This may be a better set-up for you. In a pinch, though, you could probably get away with just setting the Zoom on the table using its mics. Search youtube for demo of DualEyes. You can make one long audio file at the interview. Later DualEyes fills your video clips with the Zoom sound.
Hi Roland, thank you for this very useful explanation of the SD-302. I´ve upgraded my Tascam DR-100 to a Tascam DR-60D and a new Rode NTG-3. As the preamps in the DR-60D are better than the Zoom H4n and the H6, here my question: Do I really need a SD-302 or MixPre-D to go into the Dr-60D? Would the sound (or the noise level) get noticeable better with than without a SD mixer? Is the limiter in the SD mixers better than this in the DR-60D? Are there other benefits using a mixer? Thanx!
I just bought a DR-60D also, and I am sooooo pleased with it. Yes, get a SD 302 or MixPre-D for a couple of reasons. First, Sound Design makes the best mic preamps. You want to go into your DR-60D using a balanced stereo 1/4" phone plug. This absolutely disables the DR-60D low-med-high volume control and gives you a pristine line level input. It also avoids the step/click problem when adjusting the DR-60D fader. Once you set up SD at about 0 dBu vs DR-60D at about -18 dBFS you want to ride volume only at the SD (boom operator). Set up this way, the DR-60D sounds better than my old $700 Fostex FR2-le. Actually, I'm planning on renting a SD 702 recorder ($2,000) for a comparison test. I think the DR-60D will hold its own using the line level output from any quality front end mic / mixer setup.
Roland Comfort Roland, thanks for your fast reply - awesome! Ok, I think, I´ll go for a SD mixer now. The step/clicking problem is obvious... And what do you think about the limiter in the DR-60D vs. SD´s? Is there a big difference between SD 302 and MixPre-D beside more inputs on the SD 302?
***** The MixPre-D has a 0 dBu tone oscillator which you can use to set up the DR-60D somewhere at or above -18 dBFS. It also lets you adjust its limiter from +6 dBu to +18 dBu. I'm not sure where the DR-60D limiter kicks in, however it may be useful to set it for protection when plugging in cords, etc. Wow, NTG-3 + MixPre-D + DR-60D will give you pro-level audio for movie making, including features for Netflix and Amazon. Just remember, keep the MixPreD hot in the 0dBu range and the DR-60D cool in the - 6dBFS (peaks). You're gonna raise volume levels in post. Perfect digital audio recording is like perfect digital photography. If you're shooting photographs for a billboard, you don't need a billboard size sensor. Just get a clean image, you can blow it up as big as you want!
I want to say first, thank you so much for being so helpful and responsive. You give excellent advice! Ok, so I'm looking at the mics you suggested, and I came across some in the 600 range... but now I am confused about this: Sennheiser EW A Band, 516-558 MHz B Band, 626-668 MHz G Band, 556-608 MHz
I hate to burn up this thread but you said something that is sadly true. You said 'it took me 8 years to figure this out and why don't they teach this in film school?' Absolutely! I work with a lot of local film school students making all kinds of Indie-type shorts. I work on a 48 Hour Film Project team each year and most of them are in school. None of them understands gain structure or have ever heard of it. In fact I was sound supervisor on a recent film where they used the 744 with a boom and three Sennheiser G2's, one at mic level into chan 2 and two more at line level into chan 3 and 4. There were no level control knobs for 3 and 4! Adjustment could be made in the G2 or 744 menu. What a hassle. They had a 302 in the case so I said let's hook this up to ch 3 and 4. I read the 302 User Guide the night before and saw the Full Scale Tone thing so I did that. The sound guys were amazed at how great it worked and how much better it was to have control of all the audio. Point here is they had good gear, but no technical understanding of gain or dB or clipping or any of that. They were good, smart, dedicated guys and gals, and had good boom and lav technique. But at no time did the school ever teach them audio technology to any degree. I did on that show and later gave a guest lecture at the school on sound-for-picture. They ate it up.
I have not used the Marantz, but the fact that it costs $650 vs. $299 for the Zoom tells us that it probably sounds better, a lot better. Also, the Marantz has switchable mic/line inputs, meaning that the 302 can go straight into it without any attenuation.
Hi Roland, extremely informative video great work! I'm starting to get into the field of sound mixing/recording and have recently invested in an Olympus LS-100 and an MKH-416. Was wondering if you could do a video tutorial (if possible) on connecting the LS-100 to a SD-302 as well, or provide some advice as to how one would go about setting the two up together. Regards.
You have a great start with the MKH 416 and MixPre, however adjusting the input limiter will not change the fact that the MixPre XLR outputs run at pro-level +4 dBU, way too hot for the consumer level H4n inputs. The output of the MixPre is not adjustable downward like the SD 302 is. Read pages 4 and 6 of your MixPre owner's manual regarding Tape Output. Or you could use attenuated (built in resistance) XLR to unbalanced TR phone plugs. Or buy a better recorder w/line inputs like Marantz661.
Yes, this movie is 11 years old. I guess I'll take it down. Turns out that all was good if you kept the H4n input volume at 50% or less. Actually, same as every digital recorder then and now. Run the analog mic and field mixer hot at +0, but dial down your digital recorder to receive that signal in the -12 range.
Many thanks for your reply Roland. However, I was talking about the little first Zoom H2 not the H4 or h4n. I understand it's not a high end recorder of course. However, it's very handy to have it always with me and if I can improve the sound quite seriously with the SD302 then I would very much like to keep it with me because I still think the H2 paired with the 302 is way better than recording sound straight to camera with an external preamp.. are you agree? Thanks
I read your comment about the H4n 1/4 inch input not bypassing the mic pres, but rather just being padded down. I guess that makes sense from a low cost design point of view. Do we know that for sure or is that a good guess? Also I plugged in a return 3.5mm cable from the H4n headphone out back to the RTN input on the 302. Makes for really convenient monitoring of the Zoom while recording and for excellent playback to headphones. Nice. My first use of a Return monitor.
Hi Roland, great video, I have a SD 302 and was looking at the Zoom H4n as a cheap solution, the basic use would be for gathering ambient sound for documentary. It needs to be broadcast quality, and from the first part of the video the sound seems to be clearer than the second part. if the mic was the same i was wondering how clean the sound is from the zoom H4n.
Your new mic is a lot classier than the H4n, however you should try it direct using a regular xlr mic cable without a mixer. If you get the H4n bars hovering in the -20 to -6 dBFS range with H4n volume set between 50 to 60, you are probably okay. If you have to crank the H4n up closer to 80 to 100, you'll get a LOT of mic amp noise. Try this, use headphones on the H4n with no mic plugged in while you bring up the recording volume. You'll hear it at about 50. You can even record it!!!
Thanks Roland, I was testing high gains mainly because I would like to record some wildlife and capture low level sounds. But as I'm testing to amplify low sounds there is small hiss in background as gain increases. So I tried to hear the output of the mix without mics connected. Set monitoring volume about to 2 o'clock, Then by increasing gain background noise increases. Just wonder if that's normal...
David, take a look at my movie Sennheiser G2 G3 Wireless to Zoom H4n for Great . . . It is a simple set-up that is very versatile and you would end up with a lavaliere mic too.
Hi Roland, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Do you still need to make some synchronization, in post edition, between audio and video using the H4n and external mic? I'm looking at a very quick and simple way to record dialogues between 2 persons in seminars and give it to participants. Thank you
I agree, absolutely! Sell the 302 and upgrade to a Sound Devices 552. The movie was about how to get good sound out of a consumer grade recorder like the H4n with your SD 302. So far, I have 36,000 views on this video based mostly on H4n users trying to figure out how to get good sound. The answer is, you can't get great sound on of a $300 consumer grade recorder. Get the 552 and be done with it. Note: mic tech hasn't changed in 50 years. Buy the best mic you can afford & don't look back.
Good lord it's beautiful! No clipping no need for 32bit float audio when you do it right. This sounds like a valuable piece in the sound chain
G'day Roland, I've been searching, looking, reviewing so much over the Internet about sound recording from DSLR's and mic's etc, etc, I must say that THIS one is the best by far for information concerning how and what to do when recording audio to be put onto a recorded video. I'm only an amature when it comes to all this but you've given me so much of a head start with professional type information. Many thanks for your vid, Cheers, Kev.
You are welcome!!!! Note, the Zoom H4n line input is somewhere between pro +4 and consumer -10 dbu. It is designed to accept the output from a guitar pre-amp. That's why you have to attenuate the SD-302. You can go straight into most recorders like a Fostex without attenuating the output using most field mixers. But for the Zoom, if your mixer won't attenuate, then you may have to buy attenuated patch cables in the range of -10 to -25 dbu.
The mic plugs into the SD 302 field mixer. Check out my movie "Sound Devices 302 Field Audio Mixer Overview" for more info. The mic goes into the mixer, then the mixer output goes into a recorder like the H4n.
I noticed something you may not have seen in the newer 302 User Guide that makes what you demonstrated easier and makes better use of the 302 meter. In the older UG on page 20 there is Advanced Gain Structure and Interconnection. In the newer UG on page 22 there is the same heading BUT they added a previously undocumented feature called Full Scale Tone. That sets up a connection to any recorder so three things happen: there is no clipping, the 302 meter is sync'd up with the recorder meter, and the 302 meter runs to full scale (20 dB) before clipping! That last part is an improvement. This method is like what you show but even better! Anyone can download the latest 302 UG from SD.
The limiter threshold stays at 20 dB. However, I did adjust the H4n record level to 70 which is higher than you recommend to get 302 full scale meter (20) to correspond to just under clipping on the H4n. When the 302 limiter kicks in, the H4n does not clip. And I suppose this is buried somewhere in the H4n manual but I assume when the the two input buttons 1 and 2 flash that means clipping? I used this exact same technique when I first used a 302 a few months ago to drive channels 3 and 4 into a Sound Devices 744 four channel recorder (which has only two mic preamps). It worked perfectly.
Roland, this is the knowledge I've been looking for, for years! Thank you for passing on this valuable knowledge.
Thank you for the tutorial! I just picked up a nice used 302 for recording audio. What a difference this thing makes compared to just the field recorder. I wish I knew this a few years ago when I got into filmmaking.
Thank you for your thoughtful response! You asked why my Zoom might not be co-located with my preamp (which is a MixPre-D). The reason is due to the logistics of my shoots. I shoot videos of rock bands in small clubs, and as a result, I have to be very adaptable as to camera placement, mike placement (lots of times this isn't even an option), etc. The acoustics can range from wonderful to horrifying, and as a result, I find myself relying on the onboard mikes of the Zoom fairly often.
I don't know much about impedance transformers, however, the zoom phono plug inputs are for a pre-amped guitar signal, which is somewhere between mic level and pro line level. Attenuating the SD-302 pro line output by 10 to 25 dBu matches levels. When using the phone plugs, the zoom volume control is, I am pretty sure, just an attenuator, not an amplifier; its mic preamps are cut out of the circuit.
You can get only mono sound out of a mono shotgun mic, however all field mixers have a pan switch on each input channel that lets you assign the the mixer output bus going left, right or center (equal on both). I always use center sending the signal equally to the left and right channel on the Zoom. That's how I did it in the movie. That is why you see two patch cords.
I've been looking at upgrade solutions for weeks, but i'm on a tight budget, thank you for this insight Roland, I've been using the H4n for a couple years now and it's been a swiss army knife for my productions, but my mind was blown when I saw your setup here, i'm tempted to spend my money on the 302 instead of a middle of the road recorder/mixer and utilise this setup!
hahaha omg it killed me when you started yelling LOL.
but in all seriousness, thank you so much for these 302 tutorials. very helpful for my work! I'm a video producer, but my company is small so I have to learn all the audio stuff as well and this is coming in very handy. keep up the good work sir
gets me every time when people do that, testing limiters, have to love it
Hi Lee. I've made some changes to the movie taking into account what you (and others) have said, but I still can't bring myself to run the 302 limiter at +20 dBu, I prefer the 302 limiter at +10 dBu, syncing the 302 0 tone to the Zoom at -12 dBFS. This leaves -2 dBFS on the Zoom at the extreme top (for the Yelling!! exercise). When recording dialogue, most of it ends up at 12 to 0 dBu on the 302 and -24 to -12 dBFS on the Zoom. In the field, it's hard to get the 302 to +20 dBu, anyway.
That's exactly right. But it's a hell of a crucible. And there's nothing quite like it when you know you've nailed both video AND audio and won't have to spend hours in post fixing countless mistakes. In any case I applaud your efforts to help other sound/video guys and appreciate your help.
I've watched some of your videos too! DIY, how to videos get a lot of views and help people. The Sennheiser G2 wireless setup is great for your kind of shooting. The Lavalier mic goes everywhere with no wires. You can even plug the receiver into your camera for really good sound without doing the post production audio swap. Audio is more important than video, even in feature length films. Stay with it, you're gonna be a STAR!!
A note about levels - front end equipment like field mixers are usually analog using VU meters that don't clip but distort somewhere at +10 to +20 dBU. They produce the best sound up around 0 dBU. Recorders and cameras are usually digital with meters that "Clip" above 0 dBFS on their scale. Therefore, when you sync a 0 dBU tone from the (analog) SD302 you should set the Zoom (digital) level at -12 to -18 dBFS. In the movie, I reduced the input by -2 dBFS; go lower for more headroom.
Yes it could. The Zoom needs to stay in the sound bag with the 302. The Zoom combo jacks are unbalanced inputs when using 1/4 inch phone plugs. Once you sync the Zoom to the 302, and start recording, you need to lock its control panel and forget about it. Volume control is done on the mixer. The Zoom becomes a kind of on-board recorder for the mixer. Why would you ever put the recorder away from the mixer anyway? Thanks for watching!
Great "how to" thanks Roland! brilliant, amazing the recording never clipped toward the end, this is really helpful, thanks for taking the time to share and like the way it's shot.
Hi, I use the XLR outs on the MixPre-D, but set to line level. I run balanced XLR to 1/4" TRS cables from the MixPre-D to the Zoom, and that is where I seem to have problems. The Zoom line-in (it's coaxial with the TRS input) isn't set up for true line out levels - it's basically set up to receive instrument (guitar) level inputs, which are at a much lower level then professional line outs.
thanks for your response. I have no clue what I'm doing about sound but you make sense. I only have a zoom H4n but I'm clueless about the set up. I'm saving up for the SD-302 so I can just copy what your saying.... Love your videos. THANKS!!
Great video!!! Thanx!!!! I've seen many people saying Zoom H4n (and pro) hasn't LINE IN input, and that you have to use external XLR pad attenuators (-20db) to use input 1 & 2 for line in signal. I got an answer from Zoom saying i can use the 3.5mm back input for line in. As well as, the 1 & 2 input, but in this case i have to set the line out of the Shure FP33 mixer to MIC. I can confirm this watching your video, and the way (and cables) you make the connections. Thank you!!!
Thank you so much Roland :) I am sorry I'm just getting back with you. I actually preordered the h6n :) I can't wait to get it... but I will definitely do more research on the G2 and G3 systems. Thank you so much... And believe it or not, I watch a lot of your videos... You guys are getting me through this :) Thanks a lot!!!
Yes, each input channel on the 302 has a pan switch, left, right, or both. That said, if the 302 was panned to the middle, I guess you could set the H4n to either mono or stereo. If you are using more than one mic then things get more complicated as in do you want to record separate tracks in the H4n, etc.
Yes, sound needs to be recorded at the subject, not from the camera. So, you can't get around using a remote mic. The preferred workflow is to record sound wild using a great mic and recorder (probably not the H4n). The wild sound can be recorded in long takes. In post, you use DualEyes or PluralEyes to replace the cruddy camera audio with your superior wild audio.
Thanks. Yes, the Sennheiser G2 or G3 (new) wireless mic is a great set-up for run n gun audio. I was on location for a Discovery Channel shoot for a new pilot a few months ago. The sound guys used G3s wired on the actors with short shotgun mics just aimed into the room to pick up ambient sound. The next step up is Lectrosonics wireless at about $2,000. Go with the Sennheiser, you won't be sorry.
This was fantastic! JUST what I needed, thankyou!!!
Ohh i just investigated, i thought the 302 was a recorder just as the 702 but it's just a mixer, thank you for your response Roland a big salute from Mexico.
I'm finding out now that using SD-302 or Senn. G2 or G3 wireless going into the H4n, we should keep the H4n volume at below 50. Try it yourself by plugging in headphones on the H4n with no mic plugged in. The noise floor drops out at about 50 volume. Set input attenuation to get good bars at
You're welcome. Sound is King! Best of luck with your audio journey. Audio guys rock!
I think the bottom line when using a cheap recorder is to keep its volume, trim, fader, whatever, low, and input signal high, thereby knocking down its self-noise. That way, you end up with a digital file with a pretty good signal to noise ratio that can be amplified in post. Increasing the 302 volume would have given an even better SNR, but the one I got worked ok. Read some of the comments. This movie has been a real learning experience for me and others.
The Zoom file will be a regular stereo .wav clip with exactly the same sound on both the left and right channels, correctly phased. If you want mono, then you can separate the left and right channels into their own mono tracks or mixdown the stereo file into a mono file in post. What you never want to do is record only one side of a stereo track in the recorder. If you forget to break it out, then your video editing mixdown will send your audio to just one speaker.
Roland, you were spot on; I didn't have it set to 48. Now Im gonna watch your videos some more!
I just cranked up my 302 as you did, and yes, max gain produces lots of hiss, but that is normal in analog devices. Listen to me carefully! You don't play your stereo at max and you don't drive your car with the pedal to the floor. Your goal is to amplify your mic in a comfortable range so that your digital recorder gets solid 1's and 0's. You amplify the "pristine" 1's and 0's in post. It's like in photography, a perfect digital image can be blown up to billboard size and look great.
Janis, I've never maxed out a 302 so I don't know what that sounds like. If you are recording bird sounds in the woods you should set the level to the 0 dBu range while talking into the mic at about 3 feet. With my mics, that is about 2 o'clock on the gain with fader straight up. That way your set-up will hear what a person would hear in that environment. You should amplify the bird sounds in post because they will record at about -48 dBFS.
Wow this is really incredible. I always wondered if this was possible. You make awesome videos sir, keep them coming!!
This is a pretty nice setup. I've been going back and forth with setups I like and this is definitely a decent way to go. Thanks for the ideas. As if I needed more choices.
well i experimented with the Sound Devices Mix Pre-D and Zoom H5n , I was able to do the same thing here but just didnt like the sound. its good to try and experminent and KNOW your equipment. Thank you for this video. I use the Zoom H5n for fast, LIGHT, run and gun whether attached to the camera via Sescom cable or as a separate recorder. The sound devices is a great tool , I love my Mix-Pre-D.
You are correct, the 302, or any analogue mixer, should run up around 0 dBu vs. -18 dBFS on the receiving digital recorder. I didn't know that when I made the movie. Viewer comments pointed that out, including a comment from a guy at Sound Devices, thus the post-it notes added in the movie. I think the reason the sound was pretty good was because I got lucky and ran the H4n volume at only 55 thereby reducing its self-noise and giving me a pretty clean SNR for amplification in Soundbooth.
Love it! Amazing content! Can't wait to see what else you guys come out with.
The 302 defaults to line level out, however the zoom 1/4" jack is neither line nor mic level. It is somewhere in between, thus, we have to lower the 302 output to match. Watch the movie again to see how that is done. You cannot use a Zoom H4n with a standard field audio mixer because its line level output is too hot for the Zoom XLR (mic level) or 1/4" jack (quasi-line level) inputs.
Thanks for the quick reply, I found a 3-year old secondhand Fostex FR 2 at a good price, I think it would be a good buy as I can't afford the SD 552 mixer/recorder at present.
Thanks Roland, but I'm ready to get the 302. Thanks so much for this tutorial. I will follow all your steps.
You can do it that way if you want to, or if you link 1 and 2 and just use the left input you end up with dual mono which is the same sound on both the left and right channels. Actually, the Zoom can record up to, I think, 4 channels at once. For UA-cam type recording, I always just use one mic with the Zoom channels 1 and 2 linked so that I end up with dual mono - the same sound coming out of the left and right speakers.
Looking at the LS-100 manual, p. 130, you have 3 ways to input external mics: 1. mic/line - 3.5mm plug located on the side of the recorder (high-mid-low); 2. XLR (balanced) (high-low); 3. Standard phone (unbalanced) (low). I'd probably start with the fixed Standard phone input and attenuate the SD-302 output to get a mid range setting on the LS-100 volume control. Email Sound Devices tec support and maybe attach a pdf of your LS-100 manual. The SD guys are responsive and helpful.
The Zoom xlr inputs are mic level only and route the incoming signal through the Zoom mic pre-amps. Zoom xlrs are for plugging in a mic direct, not the line level output from a field mixer, which has its own pre-amps. The Zoom phono plugs are for inputting the pre-amped signal from a guitar, which is way hotter than mic level but less than normal audio line level, thus the attenuation at the SD-302. Read the "show more" above for more info. Thanks for watching.
The first part of the video was recorded on a Fostex FR2-LE then H4N when the pix in pix pops in. Both were processed in Soundbooth to add gain, w/compression, and hard limit. Regarding the SD302, if you don't have a field mixer that has the option to lower the output level, then you should forget about this movie and just use a good short shotgun mic hooked to the Zoom using its XLR input. See my post below that starts "I paid $995. . .".
I do, the MKH 415 says it all. I've got the same (30 year old) mic, but it is 12v T power, kind of a pain in the field. I use a Fostex FR 2le. for recording. It's kinda bulky but pretty good sound for the price. Actually, that's where I got the idea to use 1/4" phone plugs. The Fostex phone plug input cuts the trim controls out of the chain. It is line level straight in, controlled only by the fader dial.
Set up an RCA to TRS patch cord or adapter. If you can get bars on the Zoom in the -12dBu range while dialing its volume between, say, 25 and 100, you are ok. If the input is too hot so that your Zoom volume needs to drop to like 1 or less, you will need to get attenuated patch cords at about -10 to -25 dBu.
The Fostex is kinda bulky but it will work for what you want. It always works well for me. Note, try the unbalanced 1/4" plugs into the Fostex for best recording. The 1/4" input is the default line input in the Fostex. You will notice that the trim controls are cut out of the chain when you input using phono. I presume that this takes the Fostex mic pre-amps out of the chain also, leaving you with just pure SD 302 amplified sound.
The end product comes out of your TV, computer, phone, etc. on just a left and right stereo channel. Dialogue is nearly always recorded in mono, panned to the center, coming out equally on the left and right. If you have ever turned on the evening news, and the featured speaker's mic was turned down, you would just hear a weak signal being picked up on other mics. Conversely, 10 minutes earlier he was probably in the mens room taking a piss. You don't want that on the air.
Ya, it's kinda strange. I ordered the TecNec XLR F to 1/4" from Markertek following your advice but I ordered the "wrong" one, i.e. the XLR F- SPS one--STEREO type, and I used it with G3, connected the same way as you did in the video, and it worked without any problem. I later also ordered the Mono one which will arrive tomorrow. I will try it in the same setup but I don't know if I can tell the difference. With Sound Devices mixers, there are just many ways to set it
So, I mount my Zoom on the hot shoe of my cam, which I generally place as high as possible in order to clear the craniums of showgoers and to avoid the annoying and dull viewpoint of cam looking up at musician. The internal mikes of the Zoom are especially useful when I can't use my external mikes and have to use the feed from the soundboard, which almost always excludes the guitar and bass - in fact, it's frequently just the vocals.
I think you are right, which is why the 302 defaults its limiter at +20dBVU and the Zoom limiter kicks in at, I think, -6 dBFS. I'm pretty sure that the Zoom volume is only an attenuator, so the perfect set up would be more like: 302 attenuated to get 0dBFS on the Zoom with vol. wide open, then dial down the Zoom to get bars at -18dBFS. When recording, run the 302 up at -10 to +10 dBVU which will keep it happy, and -28 to -8 dBFS on the Zoom which will keep it from clipping at 0dBFS. ehh?
I don't have one, however a quick look at the DR 100 manual shows that its line input uses a 1.5 mm stereo plug. But it doesn't say if its line level is -10 dBv (consumer) or +4 dBu (pro, including the SD 302 and most field mixers). If the DR 100 line input is pro level then the 302 should go straight in, if lower then you will need to attenuate the 302 similar to the Zoom. Either way, try to keep your recorder volume control somewhere in the middle.
You could stick the 302 and zoom into a shaving bag and leave it and the mic up on the podium or at the foot of the stage if your speaker moves around a lot. Both devices will run for hours unattended. The best set-up would be to use a Sennheiser G2 or G3 wireless lavaliere mic plugged directly into the zoo. Check out my movie Sennheiser G2 G3 wireless to Zoom H4n . . . to see how that works. You will use DualEyes in post to swap your camera audio with clips drawn from the zoom file.
I use DualEyes, a stand alone program, that syncs the Tascam sound to the video clips. When I shoot, I usually just leave the sound recorder running while I am shooting all of the shots in a scene or at a location. So, at the end of the day, I end up with, say, 100 video clips (with camera sound) and maybe 10 to 20 audio clips. Just put everything into 1 folder, start the program, and magically your video clips end up with the new sound replacing the original camera sound.
Thanks very much Roland. Got it new, today! On my 1st attempt I wasn't connecting any recorder like a Tascam or anything. I was just expecting to attach the mike (ntg2), get levels on the LED, and be able to monitor (hear myself) as I speak without it going into anyhting like a recorder or a camera! I will keep trying and let you know...Thanks for the videos..
I don't have a Canon XF300, however the xlr inputs are switchable to line level. I suspect that the pro-level Canon will want the default +4dB line level output from the SD-302. The Canon peak limiter kicks in at +20dB, the same as the default peak limiter on the SD-302, so I think that I would just lower the peak limiter setting on the SD-302 somewhat for safety, then set the 302 trim and fader at unity. Finally, adjust the Canon trim to tone while trying to keep its fader near unity.
Uhh, yes, if you buy the Scarlet Pro I/O Module for $3,750, which can handle the line input from a field mixer. Otherwise, basic Scarlet amps your mic directly. If you are in the $15-20 K range you should talk to Red about it. If you are looking for budget, look at Black Magic Cinema Camera and Sound Devices 552 mixer / recorder (5 channel) for a total of $6 K. Thanks for watching.
The DR 100 manual is not clear about how you connect a line level output from a mixer (p. 26). It shows mics being connected directly using the xlr connections and line in using a 1.5 mm miniplug. I'm sure you can figure something out. Go for it. Set it up so that the MM-1 is cranked up pretty high and the DR 100 running in that - 18 to - 12 dBFS range. Test the recorded file by playing it in your editing program. Then, in post production you raise the audio peaks up to the desired level.
I haven't tried a H6 yet, just experiment. However, I'm not so sure the 1/4" plug helps that much on the H4n now either. I got that idea from using the Fostex FR-2LE in which the 1/4" plugs absolutely cut out any gain (trim) allowing a pro line level input. The key to good sound on the H4n is setting up for good bars with recording volume only around 50. Read my other posts about listening to the H4n with headphones and no mic plugged in. That may apply to the H6 but I don't know for sure.
Yes, 2 goes to the tip, w/1 & 3 to sleeve. I am pretty sure I bought 3' Tecnec XLF-SP-3 available at Markertek for about $9.
The key to remember here is you're recoridng at 24bit, which substantially reduces the noise floor. So you should calibrate the 302 at 0dbu to -20DBFS on the H4n.
The limiters on the 302 are great so can be left at +20dbu, because they will kick in around -12. If you have them set as low as -10 they will kick in much earlier reducing your average level.
-10db headroom, at 24bit post can do anything with it when recorded at 24bit. Dialogue is perfect anywhere between -20 to -12 with peaks at -12
Thanks for your comment. The main thing is that the audio you hear never comes from the camera. I always use the Sennheiser G2 lavalier mic or a good short shotgun mic mounted close (especially for voice over) recorded separately. I use DualEyes to replace the camera sound in post. The JuicedLink guys sell equipment that lets you use external mics to record in the camera, and that works great too. Bottom line, you need to record audio no more than a foot or two from your voice source.
You can get good results using XLR cables into the H4n if you keep the H4n volume at around 50. Try this . . Listen to the H4n using headphones with its volume cranked up to 90 and no microphone plugged in. Make sure line 1/2 is selected and it is armed to record. Now adjust recording volume up from 0 to 100. You'll start to hear noise/hiss at about 50. You can even record it if you want to. Best setup is attenuate the 302 to get 0 dBu vs -18 dBFS on the H4n at H4n volume around 50.
Set your field mixer (SD 302, etc) output to center. Zoom settings are: Mode = Stereo; Input Settings = Level Auto Off, 1/2 Link On, Mono Mix Off, Phantom Off, Plug-In Off.
Uhh, if you are recording in the camera then you don't need the H4n recorder. However, your camera needs to have a "line level" input to receive the signal from the output bus of the 302. 302 to H4n is for recording wild sound that you sync with and replace the poor camera sound in post using DualEyes or PluralEyes.
Yes, all of the audio geeks (including an engineer at Sound Devices) recommend -18 to 20 dBFS on the Zoom to prevent activating its limiter at 0 dBFS. However, this set up is for normal dialogue not extreme yelling into the mic. The example is to show that it would not clip when abused. I still like the higher levels that result in regular dialogue recording at -24 to -12 dBFS. Thanks for your comment.
Oh, and that's the entire point of running a line-in instead of a mike-level input to the zoom - to avoid the Zoom's preamps (which I haven't found to be quite as noisy as has been made out to be, but still), allowing me to set the Instr1/Instr2 input level to .1%, thus virtually eliminating the Zoom's preamps from the equation.
I've done that before in the video editing mixdown with a mono recording I did off the floor. What I did was copied the one mono track( now there are 2 tracks in the timeline) and panned it L for one side then panned the other one to the R. I'm pretty sure that was stereo, the movie has a stereo soundtrack anyway...
I like the Edirol R44...but like you tell about limiter. At R44 i.e. Sucks with a BIG S...even the backnoise will rise aswell...I was like what the O_o .The zoom alone is in this way similar if not worse but more handy. Thanks for the video you have shared with us.
When Sound Guy starts yelling on set, it is still music to the ears.
David, additionally, use the SD-302 tone generator at 0 dBU while setting the R-44 bars at -12 dBUFS. When recording, keep the SD-302 bars peaking up in the 0 dBU range. Your R-44 will record at about -12 to -24 dBUFS resulting in perfect sound!
Yeah, as I messed around with it more I got a good setting, basically 0 tone from the SD setting the zoom rec level to 45. The reason I'm even throwing the zoom in the mix with a 552 is because u can record 4 ISO tracks into the zoom ;-) the 552 records just the streo as I'm sure you know. I'm great at sound and get good sound now as it is out of both, ur video interested me because I never thought to use the "line" in to by pass the mic pre on the zoom & didn't know how good the lim was on zoom
I use a pair of Shure A15AS (switchable attenuator) when using line-level sources and it eliminates the clipping and there sure isn't this noise floor like you're getting.
Yes, but most field mixers (pre-amp) put out only a pro level line feed that is way too hot for the zoom. The SD 302 works because its output can be adjusted downward, but it is expensive at about $950 used on ebay. Think about buying a used Sennheiser G2 wireless mic on ebay for $4-6 hundred. Check out my movie Sennheiser G2 G3 Wireless to Zoom H4n . . . You would end up with both a lavaliere mic and a plugon transmitter that would work perfectly with your NTG-2. Check it out.
Yes, the correct setup is to attenuate the 302 to get: 302 0 dBu tone = -18 dBFS on the Zoom with Zoom volume set at 50. The important part is Zoom volume should never go much over 50. Listen to the Zoom on a headset with no mic plugged in. Noise gets crazy when recording volume exceeds 50, go all the way to 100; hit record, then play it back. What you hear is what you get no matter what is coming in from a mic or mixer. 37,000 views and viewer input has refined the setup. Thanks to all!
I see. yeah it was way too hot. I'm glad that I recorded without Mp-1 for backup. now we're using the sound instead. thank you again and i'm looking forward to check out your videos more....
Thank you Roland for your support :) Thanks for viewing my hair vids lol... but I wasn't doing any of this to continue that. I am actually going to shoot some drama movies. You know, the kinds of things to submit to film festivals etc... Would you still suggest the audio equipment (G3 and Mke600)? Thank you again for being so prompt in answering my million questions lol
Hi,
I'm getting a bit confused with the discussion on recorder quality. I thought the whole purpose of this video was to bypass the preamps on the recorder and use the higher quality 302 kit. So therefore whatever recorder is being used would not make a difference to the quality of the recording. I'm trying to setup a 302 to Zoom H6 via a Sanken CS-3E as per instruction sin this video.
I live in St. Louis City, and every year I like to record gunfire on New Years Eve. I set up my 302 and digital recorder to sound great while speaking into it from 2 to 3 feet. Then, I stick the mic out my 3rd floor window and go get something to drink. Later, when I load the audio file into Soundbooth, the wave form is very small but I can hear people talking and guns going off for blocks around. Go try this set-up in the woods. Don't overload your mic chain. Let it hear what you hear.
Thanks, very much for your answer. I was thinkig about the best method : My son goes to the university and wanted to registered the lesson. You know sometimes it is not allowed, so I was thinking in a hiding method. He seats in the middle of the class.
Yes, you have to use DualEyes or PluralEyes in post to replace your camera audio with the Zoom recording. Check out my film Sennheiser G2 G3 Wireless to Zoom H4n , , , This may be a better set-up for you. In a pinch, though, you could probably get away with just setting the Zoom on the table using its mics. Search youtube for demo of DualEyes. You can make one long audio file at the interview. Later DualEyes fills your video clips with the Zoom sound.
Hi Roland, thank you for this very useful explanation of the SD-302.
I´ve upgraded my Tascam DR-100 to a Tascam DR-60D and a new Rode NTG-3.
As the preamps in the DR-60D are better than the Zoom H4n and the H6, here my question:
Do I really need a SD-302 or MixPre-D to go into the Dr-60D? Would the sound (or the noise level) get noticeable better with than without a SD mixer? Is the limiter in the SD mixers better than this in the DR-60D? Are there other benefits using a mixer? Thanx!
I just bought a DR-60D also, and I am sooooo pleased with it. Yes, get a SD 302 or MixPre-D for a couple of reasons. First, Sound Design makes the best mic preamps. You want to go into your DR-60D using a balanced stereo 1/4" phone plug. This absolutely disables the DR-60D low-med-high volume control and gives you a pristine line level input. It also avoids the step/click problem when adjusting the DR-60D fader. Once you set up SD at about 0 dBu vs DR-60D at about -18 dBFS you want to ride volume only at the SD (boom operator). Set up this way, the DR-60D sounds better than my old $700 Fostex FR2-le. Actually, I'm planning on renting a SD 702 recorder ($2,000) for a comparison test. I think the DR-60D will hold its own using the line level output from any quality front end mic / mixer setup.
Roland Comfort
Roland, thanks for your fast reply - awesome!
Ok, I think, I´ll go for a SD mixer now. The step/clicking problem is obvious... And what do you think about the limiter in the DR-60D vs. SD´s? Is there a big difference between SD 302 and MixPre-D beside more inputs on the SD 302?
***** The MixPre-D has a 0 dBu tone oscillator which you can use to set up the DR-60D somewhere at or above -18 dBFS. It also lets you adjust its limiter from +6 dBu to +18 dBu. I'm not sure where the DR-60D limiter kicks in, however it may be useful to set it for protection when plugging in cords, etc. Wow, NTG-3 + MixPre-D + DR-60D will give you pro-level audio for movie making, including features for Netflix and Amazon. Just remember, keep the MixPreD hot in the 0dBu range and the DR-60D cool in the - 6dBFS (peaks). You're gonna raise volume levels in post. Perfect digital audio recording is like perfect digital photography. If you're shooting photographs for a billboard, you don't need a billboard size sensor. Just get a clean image, you can blow it up as big as you want!
I want to say first, thank you so much for being so helpful and responsive. You give excellent advice! Ok, so I'm looking at the mics you suggested, and I came across some in the 600 range... but now I am confused about this:
Sennheiser EW
A Band, 516-558 MHz
B Band, 626-668 MHz
G Band, 556-608 MHz
I hate to burn up this thread but you said something that is sadly true. You said 'it took me 8 years to figure this out and why don't they teach this in film school?' Absolutely! I work with a lot of local film school students making all kinds of Indie-type shorts. I work on a 48 Hour Film Project team each year and most of them are in school. None of them understands gain structure or have ever heard of it. In fact I was sound supervisor on a recent film where they used the 744 with a boom and three Sennheiser G2's, one at mic level into chan 2 and two more at line level into chan 3 and 4. There were no level control knobs for 3 and 4! Adjustment could be made in the G2 or 744 menu. What a hassle. They had a 302 in the case so I said let's hook this up to ch 3 and 4. I read the 302 User Guide the night before and saw the Full Scale Tone thing so I did that. The sound guys were amazed at how great it worked and how much better it was to have control of all the audio.
Point here is they had good gear, but no technical understanding of gain or dB or clipping or any of that. They were good, smart, dedicated guys and gals, and had good boom and lav technique. But at no time did the school ever teach them audio technology to any degree. I did on that show and later gave a guest lecture at the school on sound-for-picture. They ate it up.
I have not used the Marantz, but the fact that it costs $650 vs. $299 for the Zoom tells us that it probably sounds better, a lot better. Also, the Marantz has switchable mic/line inputs, meaning that the 302 can go straight into it without any attenuation.
Hi Roland, extremely informative video great work! I'm starting to get into the field of sound mixing/recording and have recently invested in an Olympus LS-100 and an MKH-416. Was wondering if you could do a video tutorial (if possible) on connecting the LS-100 to a SD-302 as well, or provide some advice as to how one would go about setting the two up together. Regards.
You have a great start with the MKH 416 and MixPre, however adjusting the input limiter will not change the fact that the MixPre XLR outputs run at pro-level +4 dBU, way too hot for the consumer level H4n inputs. The output of the MixPre is not adjustable downward like the SD 302 is. Read pages 4 and 6 of your MixPre owner's manual regarding Tape Output. Or you could use attenuated (built in resistance) XLR to unbalanced TR phone plugs. Or buy a better recorder w/line inputs like Marantz661.
A Zoom r4 fixed the need for extra equipment. 32bit float makes peaking a thing of the past.
Yes, this movie is 11 years old. I guess I'll take it down. Turns out that all was good if you kept the H4n input volume at 50% or less. Actually, same as every digital recorder then and now. Run the analog mic and field mixer hot at +0, but dial down your digital recorder to receive that signal in the -12 range.
Many thanks for your reply Roland. However, I was talking about the little first Zoom H2 not the H4 or h4n. I understand it's not a high end recorder of course. However, it's very handy to have it always with me and if I can improve the sound quite seriously with the SD302 then I would very much like to keep it with me because I still think the H2 paired with the 302 is way better than recording sound straight to camera with an external preamp.. are you agree? Thanks
I read your comment about the H4n 1/4 inch input not bypassing the mic pres, but rather just being padded down. I guess that makes sense from a low cost design point of view. Do we know that for sure or is that a good guess?
Also I plugged in a return 3.5mm cable from the H4n headphone out back to the RTN input on the 302. Makes for really convenient monitoring of the Zoom while recording and for excellent playback to headphones. Nice. My first use of a Return monitor.
Agreed! But, as Director, I'd probably steal it from you and route it to my own headphones. Thanks.
Has anyone told you that you look like James Karen? I thought it was you for a minute there. Great video by the way thank you!
Hi Roland, great video, I have a SD 302 and was looking at the Zoom H4n as a cheap solution, the basic use would be for gathering ambient sound for documentary. It needs to be broadcast quality, and from the first part of the video the sound seems to be clearer than the second part. if the mic was the same i was wondering how clean the sound is from the zoom H4n.
Your new mic is a lot classier than the H4n, however you should try it direct using a regular xlr mic cable without a mixer. If you get the H4n bars hovering in the -20 to -6 dBFS range with H4n volume set between 50 to 60, you are probably okay. If you have to crank the H4n up closer to 80 to 100, you'll get a LOT of mic amp noise. Try this, use headphones on the H4n with no mic plugged in while you bring up the recording volume. You'll hear it at about 50. You can even record it!!!
Thanks Roland, I was testing high gains mainly because I would like to record some wildlife and capture low level sounds. But as I'm testing to amplify low sounds there is small hiss in background as gain increases.
So I tried to hear the output of the mix without mics connected. Set monitoring volume about to 2 o'clock, Then by increasing gain background noise increases. Just wonder if that's normal...
David, take a look at my movie Sennheiser G2 G3 Wireless to Zoom H4n for Great . . . It is a simple set-up that is very versatile and you would end up with a lavaliere mic too.
very clear! thank you for your patience Roland!
Hi Roland, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Do you still need to make some synchronization, in post edition, between audio and video using the H4n and external mic? I'm looking at a very quick and simple way to record dialogues between 2 persons in seminars and give it to participants. Thank you