garand thumb's video on the rifle "the fix" is a great example for how powerful the round can be in the right gun, it cut through 3 16 inch blocks like they werent even there
@@Chris_Garmanits a fail unless youre going for penetration. Which is kind of what these rounds were made for with their 1:3 twist rate. Theyre spinning about 10-15 times faster than the cnc machines i use at work. Factor in how the bullet almost always ends up blossoming into multiple extremely sharp blades. And the bullets are absolutely drilling through shit. And the softer the target, the more its going to drill through, cause rotational velocity is conserved so much easier than forward velocity. Only thing catching an 8.6 traveling super sonic, is probably an inch of steel and id want more than 1inch between me and it just to make sure
@@PatriotPaulUSA they're made for the ar15 vs the lr308/AR10. More mag capacity, similar bullets, similar ballistics, easier case forming, smaller/lighter rifle. Maybe not 'better', just very similar and comparable with pros and cons vs the 8.6 bo.
Some people believe the 7.5 FK pistol is a powerhouse, but if you then suggest they hunt game with a 30 carbine, they may think you are nuts. If you believe the Blackout cartridges are suitable for hunting, then you should have no issue with using the overpowered 7.62x39 or 30-30. Up next, taking Kodiak Bear with the 22 Short (warning: it's already been done).
I appreciate how open minded you are even when it’s not your thing, a lot of this wave of subsonic specific has to do with modern people want to be able to ditch the hearing protection while plinking or shooting at hogs and coyotes
Not to mention most deer hunting at least in the woods is done under 50 yards lol. If you know you’re holds ect then you should be able to hit a deer where you want to
tbf If it has enough ass too tear thrugh 3 blocks of balistic Gel like they aren't even their cause the rotational Velocity it really makes the case of a good hunting round (Plus the guy who made the Round and gun has taken a shit load of African game with a 5 pound gun lol)
I think for many city people too it is a great option for your home. In your house you don't have the option to put on ear protection, and many people don't want to blow out their ears or their kids or partners ears just to defend themselves.
JD Jones did a lot of subsonic round development with quite a lineup of different "whisper" cartridges. The concept was super simple, stuff the biggest, heaviest bullet you could with enough powder to tickle supersonic speeds and send it. That being said, the .375 raptor would potentially be a better option?
I have seen the guys at Q and Discreet Ballistics do some very impressive work with this round. I have a 7” Daniel Defense PDW 300 I use for hunting white tail in the thick pines. You can’t beat an overall package of 20.75” long for getting through the woods and into a tree stand. It makes my full sized hunting rifles and even 18” shotguns feel like unwieldily beasts. I’ll definitely give the 8.6 a shot when I can more easily find ammo for it.
I was under the impression that the 8.6 blackout is based on the 6.5 creedmore, necked up and shortened rather than the 338Federal(308win). That's what faxon says on their website.
Although they say it's based on 6.5 Creedmoor, there is no practical difference. 6.5 Creedmoor is .30 Thompson Center necked down to .30 caliber. In turn, .30 Thompson Center is an improved version of .308 Winchester, retaining the exact same base (which is the same base as .30-06, which is the same base as 8mm Mauser). That means it will fit on a .308 Winchester bolt face, and brass for 8.6 can be made out of .308 Winchester brass (or 6.5 Creedmoor, if you prefer). Similarly, .300 Blackout is the commercialised version of .300 Whisper (as mentioned by Ron), which is .221 Fireball necked up, which in turn is .223 Remington shortened down. Although the direct ancestor is .221 Fireball, everybody who makes their own .300 Blackout brass does so from .223 Remington (or 5.56 NATO) because that's what's available.
@@4991Ares 30 thompson center has same base diameter yes but it casing is wider then 308. So you cant make 8.6 out of 308 casing. You need 6.5 Creedmoor or 30 Thompson Center.
6:52 - the reason they like it, is case fill and efficiency. It doesn't take a lot of powder to move these high BC bullets to 1050fps. Excess case capacity exaggerates sensitivity to ambient parameters... to the point it may dictate the use of entirely different powder chemistry, when accounting for suppressor, elevation, or even ambient temperature. Both military and civilian demand has driven the industry toward some massive technology in the last few years. The popularity of AR platform, combined with a massive swing toward subsonic/suppressed loads, has made for considerable shift toward efficiency. I'm loving it. It's good for all rifle segments. We're getting massive improvements accross the board, in both subsonic AND supersonic cartridges... and the market diversity has been great for hand loaders. It's also made for better shooters, because people are willing to account for more bullet drop, instead of being so dependent on flat trajectories.
Apparently the way they optimised 300blk and then 338blk to short barrels was in part with a change of powder : instead of using the slow burning powder that most cartrige maker used in rifle cartriges, they choose fast-burning pistol powder. This made that the powder was able to transfer all it's energy in the span of a short barrel. As you said, the guy who created 300blk was initially working in pistol cartriges. I though that was neat, and I don't understand why nobody did that before, as short barreled rifles are nothing new! Also a subsonic rifle has all the reasons to have a shorter barrel, as it doesn't need the barrel lengh for speed, nor for precision .The only problem is stability, and they fixed that with short span rate as you explained very well
The .338 Specter stabilizes it's bullets with a 1/6.5" just fine. Keep in mind that is often a 1.745" 300gr copper bullet. It looks ridiculously long. It also opens to 1.125" diameter and penetrates 19-20" in clear ballistic gel.
@7:00 I'm a fan of your channel and I've heard you mention the doughnut build up being a possible reason for design of the lowered shoulder and I'm sure that's one of the reasons for it. For this 8.6 blk out however, there is a much more important reason for doing it. As far as i know, and it has to do with cartridges properly seating into the AR 10 magazines. Apparently the OD of the 308 neck is 338. Same as the 338 bullets in the 8.6 black out. This allows the cartridges to tuck in to the ribs of the magazine and align the way the 308s do, which greatly increases reliability of feeding for semiautomatic gas guns using AR10 style mags.
So, Kevin Brittenham was formerly of Advanced Armament Corporation. They were responsible for taking the .300 Whisper and developing to work with in an AR without necessarily having to change anything between running subsonic and supersonic. Also, what they did that JD Jones didn’t do? Was get a SAAMI spec for the cartridge. As I recall Robert Silvers was also heavily involved in the .300 Blackout. The point was for Spec Ops units to get away from running 9mm sub guns. They could run subsonic ammo for stealth and then when things got loud, they could switch mags to supersonic and have their firepower back all in the same platform. Now, the fascinating thing with the 8.6 is that twist rate which alters what we’re used to where terminal ballistics are concerned.
They just stole it because Jones wouldnt license it. Ive been shooting 300 whisper/blackout in AR's since 1998 which was a decade before AAC did none of the stuff they supposedly did.
@@mikeandnatalya my understanding was there was a bit of fine tuning. And the SAAMI spec sure didn’t come from Jones. That said, way back in my youth and gaming days, I had the thought of an HK53 in 300 Whisper with a can on it. Something that I was apparently like 20+ years ahead of happening lol
@@mikeandnatalyaAAC decided to use pistol powders and change the powder to the demand. JD Jones used an adjustable gas block. The 300 Whisper was designed for the military. They asked him specifically for the round. Like you said, AAC changed just enough to not get sued.
I am smitten with really efficient large caliber cartridges ; the only nagging doubt is bullet performance at the lower velocities when the overwhelming majority are designed to operate at higher velocities/pressures/rotational speeds ...
I am retired military and still work to support them. The 300 Blackout came into its own for subsonic work with our special forces. It has pretty much replaced the 9mm silenced sub machine guns used by our military in the 70's- 90's.much better range and hitting power while still remaining subsonic. The 8.6 Blackout will be embraced by the special ops community since more mass and diameter means more stopping power and still remain subsonic with a cartridge usable out to 200 yards
It seems he never quite gets his details all correct but he does bring his opinion. I try to set some of it straight every time I respond to his vids, but its kinda silly, nobody is reading them and many just parrot what folks like Ron say.
The .338 Razorback is a 10mm auto necked to the .338 now thats the new fad in an AR platform, they didnt want the less powder sitting sideways in the casing its really genius, goofy looking but genius
If I am not mistaken, the reason the case was shortened and the neck set further back was for magazine compatability. The outside diameter of 338 is the same as the diameter of the neck of 308, and AR10 pmags have guides of a specific size set either side of this area to keep 308 cartridges pointing in the correct orientation. And if I am not mistaken, the parent case of 8.6 blackout is 6.5 Creedmore, not 338 federal. Since 6.5 Creedmore has interior dimensional changes that increase it's power capacity over a normal 308 cartridge
All I know is I’ve seen several people hitting 700yrds with 500ftlbs, suppressed it is quiet, the wound channels are extreme. All and all I think it is a great cartridge
The drop and wind drift at 700 yards has to be stupid large. I find it hard to believe they have 500ftlbs. of energy at 700 yards. 500ftlbs. of energy is not that much energy you would have to be after really thin skinned game that go down easy! Shooting this cartridge at 700 yards on game animals is irresponsible and not ethical. You hit the shoulder of a deer at 700 yards with 500ftlbs. or less you will for sure wound the animal and not recover it. The travel time at 700 yards has to be on par with a muzzle loader. With the wind drift this thing will have by 700 yards you are easily going to have issues keeping the shot in the vitals no amount of skill can make up for wind drift and travel time!
@@buckaroobonsi555 a lot of the wounding potential of this round comes from it’s crazy high spin rate. Even at lower foot pounds of energy the rounds expand and penetrate like a broad head. No one doubts a bow’s ability to take game.
@joshuashackelford6696 I entirely agree with you about the virility of the round at range, but I have to ask do you think the other guy is wrong about that travel time and wind drift? Also with that higher spin you will have to worry about spin drift past 500 or so, I would seriously worry about being able to land an ethical shot at 450 or 5. Nobody doubts a bows ability to kill, no argument here, but nobody thinks taking a 100 yard bow shot in perfect conditions is ethical either.
@@Sophisticlesenergy I’ve seen videos of people hitting with it reliably out to 700 yards. That being said if I am limited to murdering an elephant with a 5lb whisper from 250 to 300yds away. I can live with that lol.
When I first read about the 8.6 it caught my attention. As an avid hunter/shooter in Oklahoma I have a couple different rifles depending on woods hunting or Prarie hunting. This was a great alternative to my. 30-30 and .243 win for the hunting my children do. One rifle for all their hunting needs, and for my range pleasure.
@@hamhocks As a Texan I first am foremost am required to say that Texas is better than Oklahoma. Having said that your public deer hunting land is amazing and your laws are very good especially if you want to paddle into a place to hunt.
hahaha i went to ask Mr. Spomer a random question about really low ratio twist rate barrels on his official website and then immediately stumbled across the 8.6 and further thereafter this video of his popped up in my “recommend” videos. Did not know he had already made a video on it. A 1:3 twist barrel on the 8.6!!! Crazy!
Best description and comparison I've seen of the new 8.6 BLK round and related rounds. Thanks, Ron! I'll be converting my .308 pistol-rifles with 12.5"" barrels with the Faxon 8.6 BLK 12" barrels. Regarding my Diamondback .308 pistol-rifles with 13.5" barrels, I'll have to cut a little off the handguards.
I love 300 AAC Blackout but not for it’s amazing suppression capabilities but for the sweet ballistics of 110-115 grain out to 300 yards. Now this has me interested in 8.6 Blackout but not suppressed but more for that 220gr out to 300 yards.
Have you seen or tried it yet? Im curious about that twist rate on that lighter, relatively high velocity bullet bc the magnus effect could seruously disorient it in medium-long ranges. But it is just my fiction however, havent seen any tests on it yet.
Looking forward toan update from you on a gel block test with a 1:1 twist rate. It should be awesome and a continuation of the paradigm shift. Thank you for the consideration Ron.
Kevin was also the guy who directed the .300 AAC Blackout development when he worked for AAC, before he founded Q, LLC. 8.6 Blackout is a shortened 6.5 Creedmore case with a .338 Lapua bullet stuffed in it. The intent is that it can be used in the AR-10 platform with nothing more than a barrel change. They also found that 1 in 1" twist works even better, but they go with 1 in 3" to keep bullets from spinning themselves apart.
Good performing subsonic ammo is a balance between ballistic coefficient and bullet weight limited by the velocity (about 1150fps). .300 blackout does that very well.
Wait till you see how well this 8.6Blk does it too. There are some of it about a year ago at shot show outside at a range for the press. They were shooting it far and close sub and supersonic.
Kevin also helped develop .300 blackout. Before Q LLC he worked for the AAC that helped develop a proposed replacement for the HK MP5. They did not win the contract but Kevin left AAC and founded Q and took that design further and made the Honey Badger in .300 Blackout. Currently I use a suppressed .300 blackout running subsonic as my backup home defense weapon if my shotgun isn't enough. I also hunt pigs with it but with sonic ammo. Much more knockdown than 5.56/223 out of a shorter barrel and I can put more rounds out faster than with a bolt gun. Personally I love the AR platform. I deer hunt with my dad's bolt 300 Win Mag.
Another great video, you've got me thinking there might be a place in my gun safe for a short barrel 8.6 Blackout. And it would fit in a backpack nicely.
As a seventeen year old I'm still hunting with a 303 British and loving it(and I still prefer older wood stock rifles,in fact my dream gun is a 8mm or a 7x57 kar98 Mauser rifle),but the ballistics of this new cartridge is very interesting and peaks my interest. Edit,I would gladly be an old fud with you 😄
I stand astride both worlds, I love the new and the old at once. There is a lot there with the new stuff. But, there is something about quality hand rubbed wood, proper rust bluing, signs of care and use, and old school design that speaks to the heart. The modern stuff just does not have that aesthetic, or "soul" if you will, and it appears that you are noticing that by your statement.
@@raptorman6589 if I can get one I for sure will,it is a great caliber,my uncle has one but unfortunately he kind of modernised it,he put it in a Boyd's stock,had a suppressor installed.So not really what it use to be.
Subsonic with a can is about as fun as it gets for close in shooting. The biggest improvement for me was properly setting up the buffer system with a different spring tension and buffer weight. It really helped to mitigate muzzle rise and felt recoil. Obviously this greatly reduced the time to get back on target.
Thanks for the information on this cartridge. A couple of things you might want to mention on this is that the 300 gr. Sierra load may not be a legal hunting cartridge is some states. We require a 900 ft/lbs. of energy at 100 yards to be a legal deer hunting cartridge. Also with the 210 gr. TSX load, most of the monolithic bullet constructions require a 2000 fps. impact velocity to allow them to expand. This round like the 300 Blackout was really designed around the close quarters combat. I do think with the right bullet combination and wt. you could have a very viable close range deer hunting rifle with this cartridge. However even the 300 Blackout will perform as well as the 30-30 Win. at its nominal ranges.
If you think about all the different cartridges we have in America and how similar they are but we perceive the differences to be vast. It’s kind of amazing. Only an multi-generational endeavor could create such variety that we can all enjoy and discuss.
Well. I’ve been watching these guys develop this round and they where shooting 1000 yards and it was staying stable and accurate out that far with a slower heavier bullet and I really think it has some potential when guys start reloading for this round we are going to see some impressive stuff. And really going back to high power big bore PCP air rifles we learned you don’t need a 150grain bullet going 3000fps to hit will power and accuracy out past 100 yards. A well placed shot with a lower power round is very effective. More than people think
Fun video! We missed a couple of the strong points. It's designed to fit in AR 308 style rifles. It works perfectly with your remaining magazines. It was also not designed to need a 16-in barrel. It comes into barrel configurations. Remington 700 style action and AR-10 action. If you're interested in this round It would also be who people to look up videos of Kevin in Africa taking tons of different large game with it including cape Buffalo
It is also worse than .375 Raptor in every aspect. People are already having trouble with those poorly thought out 1:3 barrels when trying to run supersonic loads.
Hi Ron I wonder how these smaller lower velocity round actually preform in the field. The numbers sound all well and good, and in a controlled environment at the range may be . I once shot a wild bore up in the Northern Territory Australia . Using a 7.62 x39 , out at about 100 metres . Well the animal had so much dried mud all over it ..it was bulletproof. It took my mates 308 to stop that beast ..love your work ..phil
I agree to each there own. Depending on your part of the country you hunt 200 maybe a long shot and for others 400 maybe the normal. The right tool for the job is all that really matters. 👍👍
That’s great information and philosophy of modern hunting. I guess it depends on what you want to achieve. It’s nice to have a multitude of choices now
I started hunting with my 300blk 10.5 and love it. Easy to get through the woods and up in trees and using Barnes Tac Bullets it drops deer easily. Plus with subs it's easy on new shooters and getting them accustomed without the loud crack and recoil.
Thank you so much, Ron, for doing the research to make this an easy-to-understand presentation. I only knew that the 8.6 was now a thing, but I didn't know what it was.
I would only say to watch some other videos and Faxon and Q's actual testing and reloading and chrono/radar specs for the full picture as well. Its going to be pretty popular I am thinking. It has too many huge things helping make it one.
I hunt with a ar15 ... have for many years now ... 6.5 Grendel and 300 blk and .450 bushmaster. I will have a 8.6 soon as the ammo is commonly available. The guns are really light and handy
It just makes me think of how it would be great to see a 338 federal revival, especially if some companies chambered it in ar10 rifles. Or if Robinson Arms made a 338 federal chambering.
I want to swap my AR10 to a 338 federal now, i thought a few weeks ago I had created a revolutionary wildcat when I thought of it, turns out it exists haha
I have the Savage MSR in 338 Federal and love it. Never could figure why it never caught on with the AR10 crowd basically it mirrors 30-06 performance out of a AR10
How did I know, Ron would probably not like a new 8.6 sub/supersonic round developed in 2022! 😅 The 300 BLK was to fit in a AR15 and for close quarter under 200yd range imho. The 8.6 is a subsonic/supersonic for a AR10 size rifle. This is going to take off like crazy. You can have a .243W, 260R 6.5CM, .308, and 8.6BLK(.338) even the new 375 Raptor barrels all for your Ar10/LR308! Just a simple barrel swap! Same bolt, same mag, same everything, just swap barrels! Ron failed to explain that 8.6BLK uses a 6.5 Creedmoor case necked up for a .338 bullet and then trimmed. This is not designed to replace a .338 magnum. Its a whole new range. Look at the specs. On subsonic, you can use a 8.5" barrel and a 8-12" can for ultimate quiet, short, wood hunting gun. When have you ever seen that? The other thing Ron seems to miss, is that the round is limited by the AR10 mag size. That is why its not competing with the long .338 Magnums. 338 magnums cant fit into a Ar10/LR308 mag. Also the bullet/case design is the same lessons learned with 6.5C. A long, super efficient bullet, not ran way down into the powder makes the cases hold up better, as Ron noted by not leaving a donut. Its a more efficient bullet, and case and a gun. It has a huge range and in a Ar10, lets you change between 7 different calibers in minutes! From .243W to .338/8.6Blk supersonic or Subsonic and still will knock down anything in North America. Even a .375R for the largest caliber. You have bullet weights from 160 to 360 grains in just the 8.6Blk! I can use 1 rifle and carry 2 mags. 1 subsonic mag for close range woods etc, and a quick detach suppressor. Then switch to a mag of 210gr supersonic to reach out farther. Seems like it could be a massive hit to me :) Looks like this Kudu isn't a fan of the 8.6Blk! -8.6 Blk vs Kudu -ua-cam.com/video/_C6FKKx1d_8/v-deo.html Ron may not be a fan of 8.6BLK but I bet the people are!
I currently use 8.6 for home defense and it’s phenomenal. I’m not a hunter but am a PMC for half the year and we currently use .300 BLK for our rifles as well as 7.5 for our sidearms. I would like to see 8.6 issued but globally it isn’t a round that’s widely available to us, especially with the firm I work for being based in the UK. As far as a hunting round you guys would know exponentially more about it than I would I’ve honestly never been but in terms of close to intermediate range on a soft target it’s absolutely devastating.
Thanks for this comment, Spomer clearly likes to spew his fair share of garbage. The points you brought up are well known and reflect the design intent, for him to ignore that is intellectually lazy
I do not see it taking off like mad. The cartridges true potential is 200 yards and less and shot guns and straight walled cartridges already do that very well. I do not see the same push on this and hype train we saw with the 6.5CM. First not a huge amount of hunter wanting to SBR legally, second the brass is proprietary and lacks volume distribution, third it requires an AR10 action. If anything this cartridge makes the case for loading heavy short range bullets in more traditional cartridges like 30-06, 308, 8x57, 9.3x57. You can load almost any cartridge subsonic. You can shorten any barrel if you do not mind the performance loss. If your going subsonic or just slow and low recoil you can even load all lead cast bullets.
@@josephfranzen9196 I can definitely see socom being interested in something like this With a decent can on shooting from 300-500 meters your basically undetectable perfect for overwatch or urban sniping
@@feetoorourke If being an ethical hunter and not utilizing an underpowered cartridge to hunt with is being "not with the times", I'm certainly ok with it.
The cool thing is Kevin not only only came up with 8.6 blackout, but he's also responsible for the 300 blackout.. 8.6 blackout has a one in three twist and a heavy 338 caliber bullet. Travels subsonic at extreme RPM, so out past 500 yards it does start to wander to the right. But honestly, most of us aren't going to hunt at 500 yards. 300+ grain projectile hits with tremendous authority. And actually hits harder at 300 yards than a 308 while remaining subsonic. Most important thing to consider is that you really do have to have a well made bonded bullet or maybe even all copper . The spin on this thing is so incredible that it will just strip a standard cup and core bullet on the way out of the muzzle. Rather than zeroing the thing for maximum point blank range. if your scope has the capability of adjusting like most of these new long scopes, you can still hit 600 yards you just have to know what Bullet is gonna do. You should see what they did on water buffalo and zebra. Quick stop with extreme penetration. I want one of these. But I'm gonna have stuff my piggy bank a little more, because I want one of the rifles from Q . They Don't mess around with their engineering. But to get the lightest most effective, extremely accurate rifle available with a minimal failure rate, you're gonna have to pay a little more. Just like I'm gonna have to pay a little more. Might be the last rifle I ever have to buy.
Just to let you know we are in the 21st century. The 1900's was the 20th century. Maybe you misspoke, maybe you thought differently. Either way, no worries. I just figured I'd let you know. So if you talk about it in the future you know you'll be right. Thanks for all the informative videos! I enjoy watching them, and I always learn something!!😎🇺🇸🦅👊
Regardless of what you prefer yourself, guns are awesome either way. I absolutely love an old wood stock 30-06 bolt gun, just like I love real old-school lever action guns, but I also love ar10 and ar15 platforms. Theyve all got their place
I guess I'm old school, because I continue to want to hunt with my old bolt gun vs the AR I have. But after watching several video's, I see the need for certain applications in the AR over the bolt rifle. But I believe it's more along the lines of what people prefer, instead of what is best for the job. I see the want and obsession for a new cartridge , and I've fallen for the new cartridges as well but I will ALWAYS pick the tried and true if I know the application calls for it.
In my opinion the 300 BO was designed for CQB. And our special forces wanted something with more impact as the M4 or MP5. Urban warfare! This 8.6 seems to stretch that junction just a little further. I think the .308 or 7.62 still own that realm in the future with the 6.8 as the biggest replacement in that category. I would never choose this over a .308,.270, or 3006 for hunting.
The 300 Whisper was specifically designed as a suppressed, long range round for designated marksman. 30 caliber was specifically chosen to use the 240 grain MatchKing. It was not created with any military input.
Except the 8.6 requires the much longer, heavier AR-10 platform. And for what? A 300gr subsonic may have more energy on paper than a 200gr subsonic, but is there any appreciable difference at room-to-room distances?
I think the 1 and 3" twist rate is the key to this thing. Kevin over at Q has taken multiple Big 5 African animals with this cartridge and it's performance is impressive. Ron is correct in saying it's a paradigm shift. This cartridge is MOA past 400 yards, and with modern optics and range finders it will be effective. Is it the best option for an elk at 600 yards, no. Is it effective at reasonable ranges? For sure.
@@bobgordon1754 Absolutely. There are plenty of recreational and competition shooters completely capable of taking 700 yard ridge to ridge shots in an ethical manner. It depends on the cartridge, conditions, and experience of the shooter.
Terminal performance is what I’m interested in, and the side effects of such a fast twist barrel. I do wonder if it would be enough to expand a big copper TSX bullet effectively.
Thank you for discussing this new cartridge, I find the first thing that comes to mind tho, is would the .338 Federal see gains from having a similarly tight twist rate?
The high twist rate of the 8.6 is for bullet stability. Twist rates can help a given caliber shoot a much wider range of bullet weights and speeds. The .338 fed at supersonic speeds is fine with the twist rate that is currently used. If you were to try to take it down to the subsonic levels you would have to experiment with all kinds of twist rates like Q did.
This fits right in with the .450 Bushmaster and the .350 Legend.... If you look at the guys that were hunting in the late 40's 50's and 60's... 30-06 was the "Go To" cartridge. Maybe because they saw how good it was in WW1 and WWII with the 1903 Springfield and M1 Garand.... Later in the late 60's through to the 2000's .308 was the "Go To" great cartridge (and still is)... Maybe because of the 7.62x51 NATO and the M14. Along with the Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 being widely known as the best Sniper rifles and the .308 being the best round of times??? Now as we are moving fwd and so many folks have embraced the different AR platforms and calibers available in those platforms, and so many being very familiar and proficient with AR's its just happening like it has in the past...The military cartridges have always become popular. Think 45-70 Govt! We are already seeing this with the 6.5 Creedmoor and Im willing to bet that we will see it with the 6.8X51 being fielded by the Army in the M5 service rifle and M250 light machine gun. Ron you are right about a paradigm shift. I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps with the M16A2 from 1992 to 2012 (I never got an M4) and swore I would never own an AR.... Now I have 3 of them... These days Cerakote, M-LOK, slings, rails, night vision, bipods, optics and building your own set up is now as desirable as a beautiful Weatherby or Browning Walnut stock... 20 yrs ago many people thought that suppressors were illegal... Even though they were not, you just didnt see them. You would get laughed at if you had a suppressor on a hunting rifle...Now they are common place. Henry even has threaded barrels on Lever Guns. Im excited about all the new stuff and technology in the gun world. Polymer cased cartridges, affordable night vision, sub sonic ammo, suppressors, new military rifles with 80,000-100,000 psi chamber pressures that have a 10,000 rnd barrel life. Its wild times... I just wish I could keep up with it all.
@@thefeatheredfrontiersman8135 What do you consider affordable? Anything affordable will be chinese made ATN seems to make good quality NVS with a range of capabilities and prices.
80 to 100,000 psi and 10,000 rounds at what rate of fire? That's an explosion and metal. Sounds like a cutting torch unless a single shot. I know things have come a long way but I'll be highly impressed with those numbers at normal military rates. Just my humble opinion. As stated there sure are some great things going on with firearms right now.
Great video, Sir! Always enjoyable info. Now, I know that this is unrelated, but you know what I'd like to see? Remington's glorious 742 Woodsmaster, chambered in .338-06 A-Square. A Browning autoloader in the same chamber would also be very well received. I'd like to use the Speer 200 gr. Hotcore for deer and black bears, and the Barnes 210 gr TTSX for moose, elk, and grizzly bears. Just a dream for now.
I'm loving my 8.6 blk bolt action. I'm getting great performance out of the 12" SBR. Sub MOA 350 gr subs, spicy 225 gr TTSX putting out great energy. This round is here to stay and slay. This little shorty is gonna take an Elk this year.
@@bobgordon1754 you need to do more research on this. The developer took this 8.6 to Africa and has killed everything short of elephant with it. It’s the 1-3 twist it gives the projectile rotational energy. This thing is cutting edge
@@matthewsmith2051 I have no doubt the cartridge is awesome. The problem I have is cost and availability of components. I'm already trying to feed close to a dozen cartridges.
I like my old worn walnut stocked and blued rifles. The 8.6 blackout is very intriguing. To me this makes more sense for suppressed hunting applications than 300 blackout. Not gonna lie been considering a 12.5 barrel AR10 build but not sure if it's worth building another rifle. Maybe down the road when the ammo can be found locally and i can afford a matching suppressor.
.338 Federal is just as capable if you have a barrel made by someone who knows what they're doing. It will still shoot heavy subs and cycle just fine plus feed reliably from standard .308 magazines.
Outstanding and very objective review of the 8.6. It is a very forward thinking design. We will see if it stands the test in time. I've got to be honest, this old timer believes that his 338-06 and 338 Win Mag will have to be pried off his cold dead hands--for now.
YellowJacket ~I am also from older times, my CB Radio handle in the 1970's was Yellow Jacket, (there was a whole 10- code) 10-4 good buddy. Also the 35 Whelen with 250 grain (to about 310 grain) is outstanding and good for everything including the big bears.
The 6.8 SPC and the 224 Valkyrie do a really good job on the whitetail and Axis deer when the distance isn't over 225 yds. These 2 rounds use the same brass but different sizes of bullets. Both of these rounds actually use the same mags. I have color coded my magazines to make sure to use the right ammo.
.375 raptor is better in every way then this, it's just not being made by companys like Faxon. Is .375 raptor had easy to get barrels and dies with any sort of marketing it would take off so fast
I have been following the 8.6 development for several years. The round that most people want to compare it too is the 375 Raptor. I am also a big fan of 300blk and being able to double or even triple the effective range for subs and supers with 8.6 is phenomenal. My neighbor went Nilgai hunting in South Texas. You can't bring anything less than 300 Win Mag and they prefer shots to be taken at 100yds or less. The hide on these things like a ballistics rubber retaining wall. Even getting a great shot, my neighbor was underwhelmed with the results and when he got him he immediately traded that gun for 338 Win Mag. Now Kevin Brittingham of Q takes a gun with a 12 inch barrel, half the length of the 24 inch in my neighbors 300WM and drops Nilgai.
I shoot the 375 Raptor and Socom. It does not compare. It far from the heels of the 338 Federal I shoot as well. Only shoots monolithic copper bullets from light to midweights, you still have to throttle back the 278-300 class standard projectiles cause they too will overspin much past 1100 FPS. The 1/3 twist spins at 400,000 rpm most light to midweights and you’re throttling back the heavies to below 300,000 rpm/ 1100 fps else they will spin apart as well. Monolithics high$ and fairly rare on the shelves. I wouldn’t throw my 338 federal away for it, I Built a 12” in shts n giggles
@@harteverett My neighbor has a 338 Federal, it's a nice round. With 8.6Blk it's going to be a lot like 300blk initially. People initially just loaded 308 into 300blk brass and you saw a lot of poor performance. Now you have companies that make bullets specifically for the 300blk velocities and faster twists. It will be the same with 8.6Blk. Maker and others are already making bullets specifically for the velocities and twist rates. Also Faxon and Gorilla Ammunition have shown the difference between 1:8 and 1:3 twists on gel tests. Shooting gel isn't the same as live game but you get an idea of performance. If I had 338 Federal or 375 Raptor already, I probably wouldn't switch. I would have to look at the cost of each for entrance. Also having a suppressor for these calibers is an added expense. I know 375 and 8.6 have subsonic loading, I am unaware of any in 338 Fed
@@harteverett yeah the 375 really seems powerful, but u know they wanted something that didn't require customized magazines or a change in gas settings when going from subs to supers. 8.6 is exactly the same diameter as 308 at the magazine rib, so it works to maximum capacity in every type of factory 308 magazine on the planet. I've seen what the 350 grain makers can do on gel, and it's nipping at the heels of the 375 400 grainers, especially with the increases twist, which aids in legal expansion and increases the total volume of internal contact (the tips of the petals actually contact more tissue and traverse a longer path with higher twist). All things being equal this increases terminal effect, but the 375 is more impressive in most any other regard. Personally I think there's a sweet spot in there somewhere.
@@ravissary79 the 375 Raptor uses standard 308 mags, it is the 45 Raptor that uses a special ramp insert which I bought from the maker. 375 Raptor hasn’t had any feeding issues for me, neither has the 375 Socom, it shoots from a 458 Socom mag
@@harteverett it uses standard mags with the internal rib filed down. The 45 raptor requires an insert. A 308 magazine rib inside inside magazine is designed to hold cartridges by the bottleneck shoulder, it just so happens that the neck on a 375 is way fatter than the neck on a 308. But the shank of a 338 in front of the neck is exactly the same diameter as the neck of a 308. You didn't file down the rib on your sr25 magazine? All of the official sources and DIY forums tell you to do it, ND there's even pics and videos showing you how. ---- 375 socom from a 458 socom magazine won't have this problem because it's smaller than 458 socom (in the neck).
Kevin Brittingham is the guy that own Q LLC and before that he helped developed the 300Blackout with Advanced Armament Corp. And a few other guys out of Atlanta Ga
I love big, sectionally dense, bullets. I don’t know if this will be successful, but a conventional deer rifle with a 12” bbl. Certainly gets my attention. Keep up the good work. Your content is well researched and presented.
I really enjoyed Ron's explanation of why these subsonic "blackout" cartridges work so well. Greater mass moving slowly thereby doing more terminal damage than lighter, faster bullets. A similar philosophy behind big bore airguns-350 gr flat nose bullets at 750-800 fps, yielded 32+ inches of penetration in ballistic gel.
Mr. Spomer, I'm glad to see attitudes about AR's and chassis style firearms changing. They honestly offer a lot to new and old hunters. My father-in-law shoots a 300 RUM, but in his 70's he's not wanting to take the abuse of that canon. I've seen him grab the 300 BLK I bought for him a few times now instead of his howitzer, and I think there are a lot of older, and younger shooters that will do the same with AR platform rifles in the future. They might not have a pretty stock, or nice lines, but chassis and modern sporting rifles are here to stay.
8.6 subsonic is an spendy specialized tool. That 338Fed is an outstanding design and while I don't own one it's perhaps one of the best hunting cartridges ever devised considering the bullets available in 338 and it's performance in propelling them in that efficient sized 308win case. Too bad it didn't catch on because it try does check so many boxes and I wish you'd do a spotlight on it.
It didn’t catch on because the 338 Winchester has been around for 40+ years and the 338 Federal doesn’t do anything better ! Oh a short action BFD ! An Elk at 200 yds doesn’t know the difference ! Most new cartridges are just made to sell more rifles !……
@@thomasdaum1927 you absolutely do. And accuracy suffers the higher the recoil is. No one can say they shoot a 300RUM as well as a 223 unless the 300RUM weighs 40lbs. I can spot my shots out of my own scope in a 308 or less suppressed or braked. I cannot do that with a 338wm. I cannot as accurately put a bullet where it needs to go with a high recoil rifle as I can a low recoil rifle. If you only care about minute of deer, sure who cares. If you're trying to put the bullet exactly where you want it to go to kill it much quicker, then a lower recoil tack driver is much better.
slow velocity but ultrahigh spin rate - would definitely be a paradigm shift if this catches on ...the selling point seems to be that terminal effectiveness (combined with lower recoil); probs good on hogs and nice to be able to hunt them with an AR style rifle for fast follow-up shots
Very interesting cartridge!!! I have no doubt that it could pull double duty.. home defense and short/mid range hunting. I'd guess the recoil is quite light too. Sounds like a great idea 🙂
It makes the case for shooting heavy subsonic loads in older cartridges. If you do not need to fit it in an Ar10 or AR15. It makes the case for shooting big heavy subsonic rounds from 308 Win, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, 9,3x57. You can do sonic or subsonic in all of them. It makes the 35 Whelan(sp) and 338-06 look like winners as well! If your a hand loader and have the action length it is too easy to throat the chamber and seat the bullet out further to gain powder capacity.
what changed my thinking was the twist in the barrel. while working with 300 blk and very short barrels 8 in. 6 in 5 in and 4 in barrels the needed to increase the twist to properly stabilize the bullet. they found out it does something special. a 3 in 1 twist will have a rotational energy much greater that impact energy. that was the paradigm shift.' rotational energy.' from long heavy barrels throwing heavy fast bullets . to a super fast twist throwing heavy slow bullets. and having the same damage upon impact . really wild stuff.
That Barnes 210 gr. bullet would not be a good choice for hunting because they will no expand at the low velocity of the 8.6 black out! And most of the 338 bullets are made for 338 Winchester Mag velocities not a good choice for hunting.
I was entirely unimpressed with the 8.6 black on paper and just laughed, then I seen the video of the fast twist on ballistics gel and WOW I did not expect that at all.
The video is quite misleading. They poured water on top the 1:3 twist block for a more dramatic affect. They also hit that block 2" higher than the other block, which is why the expansion appears to come out of the top of the block. Go watch it again...
The fast twist is to stabilise very long heavy bullets. Which is really for military needs. They wanted to maximise subsonic performance vs targets wearing body armour, that means using a heavy bullet with very high sectional density to penetrate armour despite low velocity.
Kevin Brittingham also claims that 8.6 Blk puts more energy on target out of a 12" barrel than a 308 does with a 20" barrel because of the 1:3 twist and with 20% less recoil (go watch his video, he says right there). Obsolute horse puckey. Rotational energy does not add to translational energy. If high twist rates were all that, you can rest assured it would have been on the market decades ago. He is certainly not the first person to experiment with faster twist rates. As for stabilization, you don't need a 1:3 twist to stabilize those bullets, even at subsonic speed, and in fact, over spinning a bullet is detrimental to accuracy at longer ranges. Subsonics will still fly a long way and maintain velocity pretty well (they aren't subjected to the severe drag of supersonic flight). The only thing that makes subsonics difficult to make really accurate is their sensitivity to velocity differences from shot to shot. It doesn't take much velocity change to make a big change in drop.
I used to get "the sixgunner" magazine from JD Jones. After he made the whisper, if I remember right, he also made whisper cartridges in a lot of other calibers, up to 50 cal, if I remember right. 338 was one of those calibers but I don't know if it was the same as the 8.6.
His first attempt at a 338 whisper is pretty similar to this, but he didn't have bullets that can terminally perform at that speed, and he uses slower twist and peaked at 300 grains, and he wasn't using modern powders to run subs abd supers in a gas gun. The 1/3 allows for heavier bullets (maker makes a 350 gr expanding copper bullet) thats better BC, better terminally effect with a fixed top speed. It's a modern recalibration of his old ideas.
I loved your remarks on the whole „fudd“ situation. Most people in the gun community are pretty open minded to other opinions. Have it your way and be polite, we are all on the same team at the end of the day
I only call people a fudd when to their view all you “need” is a fudd gun, that all technological advancement in the last 100+ years is irrelevant and that you don’t “need” it, and constantly attack and look down on the people who disagree, and are perfectly OK with gun bans as long as it doesn’t effect their $3,000 3 shot ultra mag wood stock bolt gun or their $30,000 bespoke over and under shotgun, throwing everyone else under the bus. Without realizing that the anti gunners will be coming for their “high powered sniper rifle,” and “street sweeper” shotgun next.
Ron, I've been seeing "Blackouts" in deer camps for years. Usually caused from liquid corn or liquid hops and barely. I think I'll pass on this new Blackout just like I passed on those other Blackouts. Thanks for the info thou. Cheers, Jeff
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Ron you should see this .375 from MarkandSam after work channel Link below: Modern .375 H&H ua-cam.com/video/cA0AGVP8WKg/v-deo.html
Kevin started AAC advanced armament which was silencers mostly and Ar’s then 300 blackout for special forces. Then he sold to Remington and went to work for sig sauer help them develop silencers then he started Q. He also sued Remington and won big settlement
Just ran a chart for the 210-grain super g-1, altitude 3500', max ordinate 4" (I have been using this successfully for 59 yrs. I know you like a 3" max ordinate.) It reached 4" at 125 yds, "0" at 210 and 4" low at about 240yds. 8.4" low at 275yds.'thoght you might be interested. It still has 1342ftlbs but looks like it would wreak havoc with that spin!
And that's with a sub optimal bullet. The 210 gr has bad BC for its weight class, but the terminal effect its had in the field seems to be why its been used so much in hunting/testing. The extra spin seems to work magic with this bullet design even at lower velocities. When manufacturers start making bullets actually designed for this, like makers new 350 gr subsonic bullet, but in the 185-200 gr range, using a tough design with an ultra long ogive... this might start really reaching out. Look at the technical data on the cutting edge bullets 200 gr MTAC 338 bullet. Long ogive, very high BC, low terminal velocity threshold... if it can handle the spin then I think that bullet might be ideal.
After watching this cartridge get tested I think it’s safe to say it would drop any animal in North America at 100 yards. The twist rate does some crazy stuff, it can sip through multiple gel blocks while still making a pretty good wound cavity.
@@daflea66 They did not, you saw two isolated tests on ballistic gel, saw some explosions inside the gelatin and thought it was something impressive. In reality that can happen if the hot gases gets encapsulated inside the ballistic gel long enough. The comparison video doesn't show the permanent cavity for comparison either, there is no difference there.
Go watch the video again. They hit the 1:3" twist target two inches higher than the other one which is why the expansion protrudes out of the top of the block. They also poured water on top of the 1:3" block for a more dramatic affect...
@@lucastonoli3256 the rotational energy is so that the bullet expands at distance with low velocity. Ian (forgotten firearms) recently made a video explaining this.
@@trapperbobpatriot8288 I've got a POF Revolution DI and it shoots subsonic rounds just great. It's a sub MOA AR 15 that shoots.308 and weighs less than 7 pounds.
garand thumb's video on the rifle "the fix" is a great example for how powerful the round can be in the right gun, it cut through 3 16 inch blocks like they werent even there
With hollow points too. But the fmj veered off after the first block
That round was supposed to expand. It was a massive fail.
@@justinw1198true but in a living target especially one the size these would be for will not be an issue
@@Chris_Garmanits a fail unless youre going for penetration. Which is kind of what these rounds were made for with their 1:3 twist rate. Theyre spinning about 10-15 times faster than the cnc machines i use at work. Factor in how the bullet almost always ends up blossoming into multiple extremely sharp blades. And the bullets are absolutely drilling through shit. And the softer the target, the more its going to drill through, cause rotational velocity is conserved so much easier than forward velocity. Only thing catching an 8.6 traveling super sonic, is probably an inch of steel and id want more than 1inch between me and it just to make sure
These blackout rounds were designed for quiet, close quarter combat, anything beyond that is icing on the cake,
The 338 spectre and 10mm based .338's are better at that. They use smaller lighter more compact ar15's.
yes, that is the .300blk
@@randomidiot8142 Id like to see the specs on that round vs the 8.6Blk. In what way are they better?
@@PatriotPaulUSA they're made for the ar15 vs the lr308/AR10. More mag capacity, similar bullets, similar ballistics, easier case forming, smaller/lighter rifle.
Maybe not 'better', just very similar and comparable with pros and cons vs the 8.6 bo.
By combat I'm going to assume you mean poaching in an urban area.
Some people believe the 7.5 FK pistol is a powerhouse, but if you then suggest they hunt game with a 30 carbine, they may think you are nuts. If you believe the Blackout cartridges are suitable for hunting, then you should have no issue with using the overpowered 7.62x39 or 30-30. Up next, taking Kodiak Bear with the 22 Short (warning: it's already been done).
I appreciate how open minded you are even when it’s not your thing, a lot of this wave of subsonic specific has to do with modern people want to be able to ditch the hearing protection while plinking or shooting at hogs and coyotes
Not to mention most deer hunting at least in the woods is done under 50 yards lol. If you know you’re holds ect then you should be able to hit a deer where you want to
tbf If it has enough ass too tear thrugh 3 blocks of balistic Gel like they aren't even their cause the rotational Velocity it really makes the case of a good hunting round (Plus the guy who made the Round and gun has taken a shit load of African game with a 5 pound gun lol)
I think for many city people too it is a great option for your home. In your house you don't have the option to put on ear protection, and many people don't want to blow out their ears or their kids or partners ears just to defend themselves.
@@MarkLoganFIB for sure, agree, especially if you get a bullet that fractures upon impact and only penetrates about 12 pictures of jell.
JD Jones did a lot of subsonic round development with quite a lineup of different "whisper" cartridges. The concept was super simple, stuff the biggest, heaviest bullet you could with enough powder to tickle supersonic speeds and send it. That being said, the .375 raptor would potentially be a better option?
I have seen the guys at Q and Discreet Ballistics do some very impressive work with this round. I have a 7” Daniel Defense PDW 300 I use for hunting white tail in the thick pines. You can’t beat an overall package of 20.75” long for getting through the woods and into a tree stand. It makes my full sized hunting rifles and even 18” shotguns feel like unwieldily beasts.
I’ll definitely give the 8.6 a shot when I can more easily find ammo for it.
Get it while you can because I know they will get expensive fast. This is a very attractive package that people will pay premium to get first
Way too cost prohibitive and unavailable to be useful at this point.
They have the .338 Razorback now a 10mm auto necked to a .338 its pretty bad in the AR platform its a sweet combo
That would be great if not for NFA. Who wants to deal with the paper work of SBR just to hunt white tail?
@@buckaroobonsi555 I do. A suppressed SBR is amazing for hunting applications.
I was under the impression that the 8.6 blackout is based on the 6.5 creedmore, necked up and shortened rather than the 338Federal(308win). That's what faxon says on their website.
Yup
Although they say it's based on 6.5 Creedmoor, there is no practical difference. 6.5 Creedmoor is .30 Thompson Center necked down to .30 caliber. In turn, .30 Thompson Center is an improved version of .308 Winchester, retaining the exact same base (which is the same base as .30-06, which is the same base as 8mm Mauser). That means it will fit on a .308 Winchester bolt face, and brass for 8.6 can be made out of .308 Winchester brass (or 6.5 Creedmoor, if you prefer).
Similarly, .300 Blackout is the commercialised version of .300 Whisper (as mentioned by Ron), which is .221 Fireball necked up, which in turn is .223 Remington shortened down. Although the direct ancestor is .221 Fireball, everybody who makes their own .300 Blackout brass does so from .223 Remington (or 5.56 NATO) because that's what's available.
8.6 blackout is based on 6.5 creedmoor brass and chamber… but the bullet is a 338
@@4991Ares When you get right down to it, there are really only about 7 parent cases the rest are all derived from.
@@4991Ares 30 thompson center has same base diameter yes but it casing is wider then 308. So you cant make 8.6 out of 308 casing. You need 6.5 Creedmoor or 30 Thompson Center.
6:52 - the reason they like it, is case fill and efficiency. It doesn't take a lot of powder to move these high BC bullets to 1050fps. Excess case capacity exaggerates sensitivity to ambient parameters... to the point it may dictate the use of entirely different powder chemistry, when accounting for suppressor, elevation, or even ambient temperature.
Both military and civilian demand has driven the industry toward some massive technology in the last few years. The popularity of AR platform, combined with a massive swing toward subsonic/suppressed loads, has made for considerable shift toward efficiency. I'm loving it. It's good for all rifle segments.
We're getting massive improvements accross the board, in both subsonic AND supersonic cartridges... and the market diversity has been great for hand loaders. It's also made for better shooters, because people are willing to account for more bullet drop, instead of being so dependent on flat trajectories.
Apparently the way they optimised 300blk and then 338blk to short barrels was in part with a change of powder : instead of using the slow burning powder that most cartrige maker used in rifle cartriges, they choose fast-burning pistol powder. This made that the powder was able to transfer all it's energy in the span of a short barrel. As you said, the guy who created 300blk was initially working in pistol cartriges.
I though that was neat, and I don't understand why nobody did that before, as short barreled rifles are nothing new!
Also a subsonic rifle has all the reasons to have a shorter barrel, as it doesn't need the barrel lengh for speed, nor for precision .The only problem is stability, and they fixed that with short span rate as you explained very well
They also increased the twist rate to 1:3 for 8.6blk which is crazy
Yeah, 1/3 seem mental, but it also allows them to stabilize the bullet even with such a short barrel
The .338 Specter stabilizes it's bullets with a 1/6.5" just fine. Keep in mind that is often a 1.745" 300gr copper bullet. It looks ridiculously long. It also opens to 1.125" diameter and penetrates 19-20" in clear ballistic gel.
This detail of powders is key
IIRC I think the powder was less "pistol powder" and more "magnum revolver/magnum shotgun powder".
@7:00 I'm a fan of your channel and I've heard you mention the doughnut build up being a possible reason for design of the lowered shoulder and I'm sure that's one of the reasons for it.
For this 8.6 blk out however, there is a much more important reason for doing it. As far as i know, and it has to do with cartridges properly seating into the AR 10 magazines. Apparently the OD of the 308 neck is 338. Same as the 338 bullets in the 8.6 black out. This allows the cartridges to tuck in to the ribs of the magazine and align the way the 308s do, which greatly increases reliability of feeding for semiautomatic gas guns using AR10 style mags.
So, Kevin Brittenham was formerly of Advanced Armament Corporation. They were responsible for taking the .300 Whisper and developing to work with in an AR without necessarily having to change anything between running subsonic and supersonic. Also, what they did that JD Jones didn’t do? Was get a SAAMI spec for the cartridge. As I recall Robert Silvers was also heavily involved in the .300 Blackout. The point was for Spec Ops units to get away from running 9mm sub guns. They could run subsonic ammo for stealth and then when things got loud, they could switch mags to supersonic and have their firepower back all in the same platform.
Now, the fascinating thing with the 8.6 is that twist rate which alters what we’re used to where terminal ballistics are concerned.
They just stole it because Jones wouldnt license it. Ive been shooting 300 whisper/blackout in AR's since 1998 which was a decade before AAC did none of the stuff they supposedly did.
@@mikeandnatalya my understanding was there was a bit of fine tuning. And the SAAMI spec sure didn’t come from Jones.
That said, way back in my youth and gaming days, I had the thought of an HK53 in 300 Whisper with a can on it. Something that I was apparently like 20+ years ahead of happening lol
@@gtcam723 There was no fine tuning. It was just a couple of angle changes so AAC didnt get sued by Jones. It was a blatant ripoff.
@@mikeandnatalyaAAC decided to use pistol powders and change the powder to the demand. JD Jones used an adjustable gas block. The 300 Whisper was designed for the military. They asked him specifically for the round. Like you said, AAC changed just enough to not get sued.
I am smitten with really efficient large caliber cartridges ; the only nagging doubt is bullet performance at the lower velocities when the overwhelming majority are designed to operate at higher velocities/pressures/rotational speeds ...
I am retired military and still work to support them. The 300 Blackout came into its own for subsonic work with our special forces. It has pretty much replaced the 9mm silenced sub machine guns used by our military in the 70's- 90's.much better range and hitting power while still remaining subsonic. The 8.6 Blackout will be embraced by the special ops community since more mass and diameter means more stopping power and still remain subsonic with a cartridge usable out to 200 yards
Ron makes me smile. Thanks for the vid.
Ron, the 8.6 Blackout's parent case isn't the 338 Federal or the 308 Winchester, it's the 6.5 Creedmoor shortened.
It seems he never quite gets his details all correct but he does bring his opinion. I try to set some of it straight every time I respond to his vids, but its kinda silly, nobody is reading them and many just parrot what folks like Ron say.
The .338 Razorback is a 10mm auto necked to the .338 now thats the new fad in an AR platform, they didnt want the less powder sitting sideways in the casing its really genius, goofy looking but genius
I mean the 6.5 IS a .308 parent.
@@sniperNghillie97no it's not. The parent case of the 6.5 Creedmoor is a 30 TC.
... The 6.5 Creed is a descendant of the 308 Winchester... Which is a Descendant of the 300 Savage... You really don't know your stuff, do you?
If I am not mistaken, the reason the case was shortened and the neck set further back was for magazine compatability. The outside diameter of 338 is the same as the diameter of the neck of 308, and AR10 pmags have guides of a specific size set either side of this area to keep 308 cartridges pointing in the correct orientation. And if I am not mistaken, the parent case of 8.6 blackout is 6.5 Creedmore, not 338 federal. Since 6.5 Creedmore has interior dimensional changes that increase it's power capacity over a normal 308 cartridge
All I know is I’ve seen several people hitting 700yrds with 500ftlbs, suppressed it is quiet, the wound channels are extreme. All and all I think it is a great cartridge
The drop and wind drift at 700 yards has to be stupid large. I find it hard to believe they have 500ftlbs. of energy at 700 yards. 500ftlbs. of energy is not that much energy you would have to be after really thin skinned game that go down easy! Shooting this cartridge at 700 yards on game animals is irresponsible and not ethical. You hit the shoulder of a deer at 700 yards with 500ftlbs. or less you will for sure wound the animal and not recover it. The travel time at 700 yards has to be on par with a muzzle loader. With the wind drift this thing will have by 700 yards you are easily going to have issues keeping the shot in the vitals no amount of skill can make up for wind drift and travel time!
@@buckaroobonsi555 a lot of the wounding potential of this round comes from it’s crazy high spin rate. Even at lower foot pounds of energy the rounds expand and penetrate like a broad head. No one doubts a bow’s ability to take game.
@joshuashackelford6696 I entirely agree with you about the virility of the round at range, but I have to ask do you think the other guy is wrong about that travel time and wind drift? Also with that higher spin you will have to worry about spin drift past 500 or so, I would seriously worry about being able to land an ethical shot at 450 or 5.
Nobody doubts a bows ability to kill, no argument here, but nobody thinks taking a 100 yard bow shot in perfect conditions is ethical either.
@@joshuashackelford6696False and false. Not only does the spin not transfer to the target, the super expanding round doesn't even expand.
@@Sophisticlesenergy I’ve seen videos of people hitting with it reliably out to 700 yards. That being said if I am limited to murdering an elephant with a 5lb whisper from 250 to 300yds away. I can live with that lol.
Your videos are amazing and so informational you're not a fud you're a forward-thinker. Thank you.
When I first read about the 8.6 it caught my attention. As an avid hunter/shooter in Oklahoma I have a couple different rifles depending on woods hunting or Prarie hunting. This was a great alternative to my. 30-30 and .243 win for the hunting my children do. One rifle for all their hunting needs, and for my range pleasure.
Howdy fellow Okie
@@hamhocks As a Texan I first am foremost am required to say that Texas is better than Oklahoma. Having said that your public deer hunting land is amazing and your laws are very good especially if you want to paddle into a place to hunt.
hahaha i went to ask Mr. Spomer a random question about really low ratio twist rate barrels on his official website and then immediately stumbled across the 8.6 and further thereafter this video of his popped up in my “recommend” videos. Did not know he had already made a video on it. A 1:3 twist barrel on the 8.6!!! Crazy!
Best description and comparison I've seen of the new 8.6 BLK round and related rounds. Thanks, Ron! I'll be converting my .308 pistol-rifles with 12.5"" barrels with the Faxon 8.6 BLK 12" barrels. Regarding my Diamondback .308 pistol-rifles with 13.5" barrels, I'll have to cut a little off the handguards.
I'm already accumulating parts for my next build.....
Love the Spomes take! You are appreciated Ron!
I love 300 AAC Blackout but not for it’s amazing suppression capabilities but for the sweet ballistics of 110-115 grain out to 300 yards. Now this has me interested in 8.6 Blackout but not suppressed but more for that 220gr out to 300 yards.
Have you seen or tried it yet? Im curious about that twist rate on that lighter, relatively high velocity bullet bc the magnus effect could seruously disorient it in medium-long ranges. But it is just my fiction however, havent seen any tests on it yet.
Looking forward toan update from you on a gel block test with a 1:1 twist rate. It should be awesome and a continuation of the paradigm shift.
Thank you for the consideration Ron.
Kevin was also the guy who directed the .300 AAC Blackout development when he worked for AAC, before he founded Q, LLC.
8.6 Blackout is a shortened 6.5 Creedmore case with a .338 Lapua bullet stuffed in it. The intent is that it can be used in the AR-10 platform with nothing more than a barrel change.
They also found that 1 in 1" twist works even better, but they go with 1 in 3" to keep bullets from spinning themselves apart.
Thank you 😊
Good performing subsonic ammo is a balance between ballistic coefficient and bullet weight limited by the velocity (about 1150fps). .300 blackout does that very well.
Wait till you see how well this 8.6Blk does it too. There are some of it about a year ago at shot show outside at a range for the press. They were shooting it far and close sub and supersonic.
@@PatriotPaulUSA no doubt, but I'm not going to buy all new barrels, bolts, reloading supplies, etc. I'm happy with .300blk for what I use it for.
Kevin also helped develop .300 blackout. Before Q LLC he worked for the AAC that helped develop a proposed replacement for the HK MP5. They did not win the contract but Kevin left AAC and founded Q and took that design further and made the Honey Badger in .300 Blackout. Currently I use a suppressed .300 blackout running subsonic as my backup home defense weapon if my shotgun isn't enough. I also hunt pigs with it but with sonic ammo. Much more knockdown than 5.56/223 out of a shorter barrel and I can put more rounds out faster than with a bolt gun. Personally I love the AR platform. I deer hunt with my dad's bolt 300 Win Mag.
Another great video, you've got me thinking there might be a place in my gun safe for a short barrel 8.6 Blackout.
And it would fit in a backpack nicely.
Well summarized. I'll be converting my .308 pistol-rifles with 12.5" and 13.5" barrels to 8.6 BLK.
Love love love the history recap
Hey Ron thanks for the update, and the twist rate is the key for this raskle,To each his own,just have safe FUN.
Love your videos man, thank you
As a seventeen year old I'm still hunting with a 303 British and loving it(and I still prefer older wood stock rifles,in fact my dream gun is a 8mm or a 7x57 kar98 Mauser rifle),but the ballistics of this new cartridge is very interesting and peaks my interest.
Edit,I would gladly be an old fud with you 😄
I stand astride both worlds, I love the new and the old at once. There is a lot there with the new stuff. But, there is something about quality hand rubbed wood, proper rust bluing, signs of care and use, and old school design that speaks to the heart. The modern stuff just does not have that aesthetic, or "soul" if you will, and it appears that you are noticing that by your statement.
Try a Finnish Mosin with 182 grain pills.
Find a 6.5x55 swedish mauser there great
@@raptorman6589 if I can get one I for sure will,it is a great caliber,my uncle has one but unfortunately he kind of modernised it,he put it in a Boyd's stock,had a suppressor installed.So not really what it use to be.
@@bradmckinney7003 Also a great rifle, although I really doubt I'd be able to find one in my country.
Subsonic with a can is about as fun as it gets for close in shooting. The biggest improvement for me was properly setting up the buffer system with a different spring tension and buffer weight. It really helped to mitigate muzzle rise and felt recoil. Obviously this greatly reduced the time to get back on target.
Thanks for the information on this cartridge. A couple of things you might want to mention on this is that the 300 gr. Sierra load may not be a legal hunting cartridge is some states. We require a 900 ft/lbs. of energy at 100 yards to be a legal deer hunting cartridge. Also with the 210 gr. TSX load, most of the monolithic bullet constructions require a 2000 fps. impact velocity to allow them to expand. This round like the 300 Blackout was really designed around the close quarters combat. I do think with the right bullet combination and wt. you could have a very viable close range deer hunting rifle with this cartridge. However even the 300 Blackout will perform as well as the 30-30 Win. at its nominal ranges.
If you think about all the different cartridges we have in America and how similar they are but we perceive the differences to be vast. It’s kind of amazing. Only an multi-generational endeavor could create such variety that we can all enjoy and discuss.
Well. I’ve been watching these guys develop this round and they where shooting 1000 yards and it was staying stable and accurate out that far with a slower heavier bullet and I really think it has some potential when guys start reloading for this round we are going to see some impressive stuff. And really going back to high power big bore PCP air rifles we learned you don’t need a 150grain bullet going 3000fps to hit will power and accuracy out past 100 yards. A well placed shot with a lower power round is very effective. More than people think
My airforce texan lss all tuned up can slam steel at 300yds with a 400gr bt-hp I love the big bore air guns so much
Hi Ron,
If you like this you should check out the .375 Raptor.
Fun video! We missed a couple of the strong points. It's designed to fit in AR 308 style rifles. It works perfectly with your remaining magazines. It was also not designed to need a 16-in barrel. It comes into barrel configurations. Remington 700 style action and AR-10 action.
If you're interested in this round It would also be who people to look up videos of Kevin in Africa taking tons of different large game with it including cape Buffalo
It is also worse than .375 Raptor in every aspect. People are already having trouble with those poorly thought out 1:3 barrels when trying to run supersonic loads.
@@lucastonoli3256 Except it feeds in an AR
@@Jiggaboots420 A 5 minute job on an AR-10 mag will get it to feed fine. The mag will keep working with .308 after the adjustments.
Well said! Ron sometimes skips some major points , accidently or maybe not. "Behove" is how its spelled by the way.
@@lucastonoli3256 The other advantage to the 1:3 barrel is that ammo will expand at lower velocities.
What a nice analysis
Thanks Ron, for another terrific episode!
Hi Ron I wonder how these smaller lower velocity round actually preform in the field. The numbers sound all well and good, and in a controlled environment at the range may be . I once shot a wild bore up in the Northern Territory Australia . Using a 7.62 x39 , out at about 100 metres . Well the animal had so much dried mud all over it ..it was bulletproof. It took my mates 308 to stop that beast ..love your work ..phil
Check out the many videos of 8.6 hunting in Africa on Qs chanel.
I agree to each there own. Depending on your part of the country you hunt 200 maybe a long shot and for others 400 maybe the normal. The right tool for the job is all that really matters. 👍👍
That’s great information and philosophy of modern hunting. I guess it depends on what you want to achieve. It’s nice to have a multitude of choices now
I started hunting with my 300blk 10.5 and love it. Easy to get through the woods and up in trees and using Barnes Tac Bullets it drops deer easily.
Plus with subs it's easy on new shooters and getting them accustomed without the loud crack and recoil.
Thank you so much, Ron, for doing the research to make this an easy-to-understand presentation. I only knew that the 8.6 was now a thing, but I didn't know what it was.
I would only say to watch some other videos and Faxon and Q's actual testing and reloading and chrono/radar specs for the full picture as well. Its going to be pretty popular I am thinking. It has too many huge things helping make it one.
I hunt with a ar15 ... have for many years now ... 6.5 Grendel and 300 blk and .450 bushmaster. I will have a 8.6 soon as the ammo is commonly available. The guns are really light and handy
It is a shame that the AR15 can only run low pressure 6.5 Grendel.
You are very entertaining. I understood all of this before the video, but I watched until the end. You make great videos
It just makes me think of how it would be great to see a 338 federal revival, especially if some companies chambered it in ar10 rifles. Or if Robinson Arms made a 338 federal chambering.
I want to swap my AR10 to a 338 federal now, i thought a few weeks ago I had created a revolutionary wildcat when I thought of it, turns out it exists haha
338 federal is a neat round. Would be awesome in an AR10
I’m thinking a compact Ruger American in 338 Federal, a rifle for the masses!
I have the Savage MSR in 338 Federal and love it. Never could figure why it never caught on with the AR10 crowd basically it mirrors 30-06 performance out of a AR10
You can get AR barrels chambered in 338 Fed (i thought about building one), but no factory rifles i know of. Would be cool
thanks for the very good description. that's exactly how I imagined the tool for myself
How did I know, Ron would probably not like a new 8.6 sub/supersonic round developed in 2022! 😅 The 300 BLK was to fit in a AR15 and for close quarter under 200yd range imho. The 8.6 is a subsonic/supersonic for a AR10 size rifle. This is going to take off like crazy. You can have a .243W, 260R 6.5CM, .308, and 8.6BLK(.338) even the new 375 Raptor barrels all for your Ar10/LR308! Just a simple barrel swap! Same bolt, same mag, same everything, just swap barrels! Ron failed to explain that 8.6BLK uses a 6.5 Creedmoor case necked up for a .338 bullet and then trimmed. This is not designed to replace a .338 magnum. Its a whole new range. Look at the specs. On subsonic, you can use a 8.5" barrel and a 8-12" can for ultimate quiet, short, wood hunting gun. When have you ever seen that? The other thing Ron seems to miss, is that the round is limited by the AR10 mag size. That is why its not competing with the long .338 Magnums. 338 magnums cant fit into a Ar10/LR308 mag. Also the bullet/case design is the same lessons learned with 6.5C. A long, super efficient bullet, not ran way down into the powder makes the cases hold up better, as Ron noted by not leaving a donut. Its a more efficient bullet, and case and a gun. It has a huge range and in a Ar10, lets you change between 7 different calibers in minutes! From .243W to .338/8.6Blk supersonic or Subsonic and still will knock down anything in North America. Even a .375R for the largest caliber. You have bullet weights from 160 to 360 grains in just the 8.6Blk! I can use 1 rifle and carry 2 mags. 1 subsonic mag for close range woods etc, and a quick detach suppressor. Then switch to a mag of 210gr supersonic to reach out farther. Seems like it could be a massive hit to me :) Looks like this Kudu isn't a fan of the 8.6Blk! -8.6 Blk vs Kudu -ua-cam.com/video/_C6FKKx1d_8/v-deo.html Ron may not be a fan of 8.6BLK but I bet the people are!
I currently use 8.6 for home defense and it’s phenomenal. I’m not a hunter but am a PMC for half the year and we currently use .300 BLK for our rifles as well as 7.5 for our sidearms. I would like to see 8.6 issued but globally it isn’t a round that’s widely available to us, especially with the firm I work for being based in the UK. As far as a hunting round you guys would know exponentially more about it than I would I’ve honestly never been but in terms of close to intermediate range on a soft target it’s absolutely devastating.
well said
Thanks for this comment, Spomer clearly likes to spew his fair share of garbage. The points you brought up are well known and reflect the design intent, for him to ignore that is intellectually lazy
I do not see it taking off like mad. The cartridges true potential is 200 yards and less and shot guns and straight walled cartridges already do that very well. I do not see the same push on this and hype train we saw with the 6.5CM. First not a huge amount of hunter wanting to SBR legally, second the brass is proprietary and lacks volume distribution, third it requires an AR10 action. If anything this cartridge makes the case for loading heavy short range bullets in more traditional cartridges like 30-06, 308, 8x57, 9.3x57. You can load almost any cartridge subsonic. You can shorten any barrel if you do not mind the performance loss. If your going subsonic or just slow and low recoil you can even load all lead cast bullets.
@@josephfranzen9196
I can definitely see socom being interested in something like this
With a decent can on shooting from 300-500 meters your basically undetectable perfect for overwatch or urban sniping
First time at this channel. Well done video, much better than I guess I expected. I found the host to be interesting, engaging, and well-spoken.
My brother took a beastly 7 point last year with his 300blk pistol. The terminal effect at close range was nothing short of fantastic.
Don't brag about pistol hunting or what it should be called wounding.
@@bearbait2221 get with the times. Short barreled and braced ar or bolt action pistols are fantastic options for dense brush or kids.
@@bearbait2221 you have to be a 98 year old man, get with the times you old dog.
@@bearbait2221 Exactly right.
@@feetoorourke If being an ethical hunter and not utilizing an underpowered cartridge to hunt with is being "not with the times", I'm certainly ok with it.
The cool thing is Kevin not only only came up with 8.6 blackout, but he's also responsible for the 300 blackout.. 8.6 blackout has a one in three twist and a heavy 338 caliber bullet. Travels subsonic at extreme RPM, so out past 500 yards it does start to wander to the right. But honestly, most of us aren't going to hunt at 500 yards.
300+ grain projectile hits with tremendous authority. And actually hits harder at 300 yards than a 308 while remaining subsonic.
Most important thing to consider is that you really do have to have a well made bonded bullet or maybe even all copper . The spin on this thing is so incredible that it will just strip a standard cup and core bullet on the way out of the muzzle.
Rather than zeroing the thing for maximum point blank range. if your scope has the capability of adjusting like most of these new long scopes, you can still hit 600 yards you just have to know what Bullet is gonna do. You should see what they did on water buffalo and zebra. Quick stop with extreme penetration. I want one of these. But I'm gonna have stuff my piggy bank a little more, because I want one of the rifles from Q . They Don't mess around with their engineering. But to get the lightest most effective, extremely accurate rifle available with a minimal failure rate, you're gonna have to pay a little more. Just like I'm gonna have to pay a little more. Might be the last rifle I ever have to buy.
And there’s also the .375 Raptor: a .375 bullet in a necked up .308 win / 7.62x51 brass. Same idea.
probably the superior option. what's the barrel twist rate on that?
I'd like to see a comparison between 375 raptor and 8.6 blackout
I thought the 8.6 used a necked 6.5 Creedmoor?
Just to let you know we are in the 21st century. The 1900's was the 20th century. Maybe you misspoke, maybe you thought differently. Either way, no worries. I just figured I'd let you know. So if you talk about it in the future you know you'll be right. Thanks for all the informative videos! I enjoy watching them, and I always learn something!!😎🇺🇸🦅👊
Regardless of what you prefer yourself, guns are awesome either way. I absolutely love an old wood stock 30-06 bolt gun, just like I love real old-school lever action guns, but I also love ar10 and ar15 platforms. Theyve all got their place
I guess I'm old school, because I continue to want to hunt with my old bolt gun vs the AR I have. But after watching several video's, I see the need for certain applications in the AR over the bolt rifle. But I believe it's more along the lines of what people prefer, instead of what is best for the job.
I see the want and obsession for a new cartridge , and I've fallen for the new cartridges as well but I will ALWAYS pick the tried and true if I know the application calls for it.
In my opinion the 300 BO was designed for CQB. And our special forces wanted something with more impact as the M4 or MP5. Urban warfare!
This 8.6 seems to stretch that junction just a little further. I think the .308 or 7.62 still own that realm in the future with the 6.8 as the biggest replacement in that category.
I would never choose this over a .308,.270, or 3006 for hunting.
The 300 Whisper was specifically designed as a suppressed, long range round for designated marksman. 30 caliber was specifically chosen to use the 240 grain MatchKing. It was not created with any military input.
Thanks for stating the obvious.
Except the 8.6 requires the much longer, heavier AR-10 platform. And for what? A 300gr subsonic may have more energy on paper than a 200gr subsonic, but is there any appreciable difference at room-to-room distances?
@@JaronActual When it comes to penetrating body armor and modern helmets, there is.
@@Sparks68 If you're worried about armor, ditch subsonic rounds altogether.
Super appreciate your perspective & that history Sir 🎉
I think the 1 and 3" twist rate is the key to this thing. Kevin over at Q has taken multiple Big 5 African animals with this cartridge and it's performance is impressive. Ron is correct in saying it's a paradigm shift. This cartridge is MOA past 400 yards, and with modern optics and range finders it will be effective. Is it the best option for an elk at 600 yards, no. Is it effective at reasonable ranges? For sure.
Does anyone except a professional sniper have any business shooting at an elk at 600 yds?
@@bobgordon1754 Absolutely. There are plenty of recreational and competition shooters completely capable of taking 700 yard ridge to ridge shots in an ethical manner. It depends on the cartridge, conditions, and experience of the shooter.
This cartridge is only useful as a door buster ! It will last as long as the 356 Winchester, yes it lasted 5 minutes !……
Yea things are changing but are they changing for the good or just a fad ?….
Terminal performance is what I’m interested in, and the side effects of such a fast twist barrel. I do wonder if it would be enough to expand a big copper TSX bullet effectively.
Thank you for discussing this new cartridge, I find the first thing that comes to mind tho, is would the .338 Federal see gains from having a similarly tight twist rate?
The high twist rate of the 8.6 is for bullet stability. Twist rates can help a given caliber shoot a much wider range of bullet weights and speeds. The .338 fed at supersonic speeds is fine with the twist rate that is currently used. If you were to try to take it down to the subsonic levels you would have to experiment with all kinds of twist rates like Q did.
This fits right in with the .450 Bushmaster and the .350 Legend.... If you look at the guys that were hunting in the late 40's 50's and 60's... 30-06 was the "Go To" cartridge. Maybe because they saw how good it was in WW1 and WWII with the 1903 Springfield and M1 Garand.... Later in the late 60's through to the 2000's .308 was the "Go To" great cartridge (and still is)... Maybe because of the 7.62x51 NATO and the M14. Along with the Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 being widely known as the best Sniper rifles and the .308 being the best round of times??? Now as we are moving fwd and so many folks have embraced the different AR platforms and calibers available in those platforms, and so many being very familiar and proficient with AR's its just happening like it has in the past...The military cartridges have always become popular. Think 45-70 Govt! We are already seeing this with the 6.5 Creedmoor and Im willing to bet that we will see it with the 6.8X51 being fielded by the Army in the M5 service rifle and M250 light machine gun.
Ron you are right about a paradigm shift. I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps with the M16A2 from 1992 to 2012 (I never got an M4) and swore I would never own an AR.... Now I have 3 of them... These days Cerakote, M-LOK, slings, rails, night vision, bipods, optics and building your own set up is now as desirable as a beautiful Weatherby or Browning Walnut stock... 20 yrs ago many people thought that suppressors were illegal... Even though they were not, you just didnt see them. You would get laughed at if you had a suppressor on a hunting rifle...Now they are common place. Henry even has threaded barrels on Lever Guns.
Im excited about all the new stuff and technology in the gun world. Polymer cased cartridges, affordable night vision, sub sonic ammo, suppressors, new military rifles with 80,000-100,000 psi chamber pressures that have a 10,000 rnd barrel life. Its wild times... I just wish I could keep up with it all.
Affordable night vision? Any suggestions?
@@thefeatheredfrontiersman8135 I wish bud, I wish.
@@thefeatheredfrontiersman8135 What do you consider affordable? Anything affordable will be chinese made ATN seems to make good quality NVS with a range of capabilities and prices.
Well said👍
80 to 100,000 psi and 10,000 rounds at what rate of fire? That's an explosion and metal. Sounds like a cutting torch unless a single shot. I know things have come a long way but I'll be highly impressed with those numbers at normal military rates. Just my humble opinion. As stated there sure are some great things going on with firearms right now.
Great video, Sir! Always enjoyable info.
Now, I know that this is unrelated, but you know what I'd like to see? Remington's glorious 742 Woodsmaster, chambered in .338-06 A-Square. A Browning autoloader in the same chamber would also be very well received. I'd like to use the Speer 200 gr. Hotcore for deer and black bears, and the Barnes 210 gr TTSX for moose, elk, and grizzly bears. Just a dream for now.
I'm loving my 8.6 blk bolt action. I'm getting great performance out of the 12" SBR. Sub MOA 350 gr subs, spicy 225 gr TTSX putting out great energy. This round is here to stay and slay. This little shorty is gonna take an Elk this year.
Better get close.
@@bobgordon1754 you need to do more research on this. The developer took this 8.6 to Africa and has killed everything short of elephant with it. It’s the 1-3 twist it gives the projectile rotational energy. This thing is cutting edge
@@matthewsmith2051 I have no doubt the cartridge is awesome. The problem I have is cost and availability of components. I'm already trying to feed close to a dozen cartridges.
I like my old worn walnut stocked and blued rifles. The 8.6 blackout is very intriguing. To me this makes more sense for suppressed hunting applications than 300 blackout. Not gonna lie been considering a 12.5 barrel AR10 build but not sure if it's worth building another rifle. Maybe down the road when the ammo can be found locally and i can afford a matching suppressor.
.338 Federal is just as capable if you have a barrel made by someone who knows what they're doing. It will still shoot heavy subs and cycle just fine plus feed reliably from standard .308 magazines.
Outstanding and very objective review of the 8.6. It is a very forward thinking design. We will see if it stands the test in time. I've got to be honest, this old timer believes that his 338-06 and 338 Win Mag will have to be pried off his cold dead hands--for now.
YellowJacket ~I am also from older times, my CB Radio handle in the 1970's was Yellow Jacket, (there was a whole 10- code) 10-4 good buddy. Also the 35 Whelen with 250 grain (to about 310 grain) is outstanding and good for everything including the big bears.
@@royjohnson465 definitely! 10-4!
@@yellowjacket548 😁👍
The 6.8 SPC and the 224 Valkyrie do a really good job on the whitetail and Axis deer when the distance isn't over 225 yds. These 2 rounds use the same brass but different sizes of bullets. Both of these rounds actually use the same mags. I have color coded my magazines to make sure to use the right ammo.
I really liked the 6.8 until I tried a 6.5 Grendel and never looked back. I was also really close to grabbing a .224 but the the .22 ARC dropped.
Another nice video, thanks Ron! In that perspective you should check one of my favorite new sub-sonic/supersonic creations - the .375 Raptor.
.375 raptor is better in every way then this, it's just not being made by companys like Faxon. Is .375 raptor had easy to get barrels and dies with any sort of marketing it would take off so fast
Wonderfully informative video> Thank You!
I have been following the 8.6 development for several years. The round that most people want to compare it too is the 375 Raptor. I am also a big fan of 300blk and being able to double or even triple the effective range for subs and supers with 8.6 is phenomenal. My neighbor went Nilgai hunting in South Texas. You can't bring anything less than 300 Win Mag and they prefer shots to be taken at 100yds or less. The hide on these things like a ballistics rubber retaining wall. Even getting a great shot, my neighbor was underwhelmed with the results and when he got him he immediately traded that gun for 338 Win Mag. Now Kevin Brittingham of Q takes a gun with a 12 inch barrel, half the length of the 24 inch in my neighbors 300WM and drops Nilgai.
I shoot the 375 Raptor and Socom. It does not compare. It far from the heels of the 338 Federal I shoot as well. Only shoots monolithic copper bullets from light to midweights, you still have to throttle back the 278-300 class standard projectiles cause they too will overspin much past 1100 FPS. The 1/3 twist spins at 400,000 rpm most light to midweights and you’re throttling back the heavies to below 300,000 rpm/ 1100 fps else they will spin apart as well. Monolithics high$ and fairly rare on the shelves. I wouldn’t throw my 338 federal away for it, I Built a 12” in shts n giggles
@@harteverett My neighbor has a 338 Federal, it's a nice round. With 8.6Blk it's going to be a lot like 300blk initially. People initially just loaded 308 into 300blk brass and you saw a lot of poor performance. Now you have companies that make bullets specifically for the 300blk velocities and faster twists. It will be the same with 8.6Blk. Maker and others are already making bullets specifically for the velocities and twist rates. Also Faxon and Gorilla Ammunition have shown the difference between 1:8 and 1:3 twists on gel tests. Shooting gel isn't the same as live game but you get an idea of performance. If I had 338 Federal or 375 Raptor already, I probably wouldn't switch. I would have to look at the cost of each for entrance. Also having a suppressor for these calibers is an added expense. I know 375 and 8.6 have subsonic loading, I am unaware of any in 338 Fed
@@harteverett yeah the 375 really seems powerful, but u know they wanted something that didn't require customized magazines or a change in gas settings when going from subs to supers. 8.6 is exactly the same diameter as 308 at the magazine rib, so it works to maximum capacity in every type of factory 308 magazine on the planet.
I've seen what the 350 grain makers can do on gel, and it's nipping at the heels of the 375 400 grainers, especially with the increases twist, which aids in legal expansion and increases the total volume of internal contact (the tips of the petals actually contact more tissue and traverse a longer path with higher twist). All things being equal this increases terminal effect, but the 375 is more impressive in most any other regard.
Personally I think there's a sweet spot in there somewhere.
@@ravissary79 the 375 Raptor uses standard 308 mags, it is the 45 Raptor that uses a special ramp insert which I bought from the maker. 375 Raptor hasn’t had any feeding issues for me, neither has the 375 Socom, it shoots from a 458 Socom mag
@@harteverett it uses standard mags with the internal rib filed down.
The 45 raptor requires an insert.
A 308 magazine rib inside inside magazine is designed to hold cartridges by the bottleneck shoulder, it just so happens that the neck on a 375 is way fatter than the neck on a 308. But the shank of a 338 in front of the neck is exactly the same diameter as the neck of a 308.
You didn't file down the rib on your sr25 magazine?
All of the official sources and DIY forums tell you to do it, ND there's even pics and videos showing you how.
----
375 socom from a 458 socom magazine won't have this problem because it's smaller than 458 socom (in the neck).
Kevin Brittingham is the guy that own Q LLC and before that he helped developed the 300Blackout with Advanced Armament Corp. And a few other guys out of Atlanta Ga
Bought me a sugar weasel last weekend!
I love big, sectionally dense, bullets. I don’t know if this will be successful, but a conventional deer rifle with a 12” bbl. Certainly gets my attention.
Keep up the good work. Your content is well researched and presented.
Thanks William.
Love all the 338s keep up the good work.
I really enjoyed Ron's explanation of why these subsonic "blackout" cartridges work so well. Greater mass moving slowly thereby doing more terminal damage than lighter, faster bullets. A similar philosophy behind big bore airguns-350 gr flat nose bullets at 750-800 fps, yielded 32+ inches of penetration in ballistic gel.
Mr. Spomer, I'm glad to see attitudes about AR's and chassis style firearms changing. They honestly offer a lot to new and old hunters. My father-in-law shoots a 300 RUM, but in his 70's he's not wanting to take the abuse of that canon. I've seen him grab the 300 BLK I bought for him a few times now instead of his howitzer, and I think there are a lot of older, and younger shooters that will do the same with AR platform rifles in the future. They might not have a pretty stock, or nice lines, but chassis and modern sporting rifles are here to stay.
I bet AR15 -AR10 furniture designs may even change some to help that too for the hunting crowd.
8.6 subsonic is an spendy specialized tool. That 338Fed is an outstanding design and while I don't own one it's perhaps one of the best hunting cartridges ever devised considering the bullets available in 338 and it's performance in propelling them in that efficient sized 308win case. Too bad it didn't catch on because it try does check so many boxes and I wish you'd do a spotlight on it.
He did do a video specifically about .338 federal a while back.
It didn’t catch on because the 338 Winchester has been around for 40+ years and the 338 Federal doesn’t do anything better ! Oh a short action BFD ! An Elk at 200 yds doesn’t know the difference ! Most new cartridges are just made to sell more rifles !……
@@thomasdaum1927 The 338 Fed treats your shoulder a lot better.
@@z987k when you are hunting you don’t feel recoil . Of all the Elk I shot I never felt any recoil !……..
@@thomasdaum1927 you absolutely do. And accuracy suffers the higher the recoil is. No one can say they shoot a 300RUM as well as a 223 unless the 300RUM weighs 40lbs.
I can spot my shots out of my own scope in a 308 or less suppressed or braked. I cannot do that with a 338wm. I cannot as accurately put a bullet where it needs to go with a high recoil rifle as I can a low recoil rifle. If you only care about minute of deer, sure who cares. If you're trying to put the bullet exactly where you want it to go to kill it much quicker, then a lower recoil tack driver is much better.
Terrific show. Thank you.
slow velocity but ultrahigh spin rate - would definitely be a paradigm shift if this catches on
...the selling point seems to be that terminal effectiveness (combined with lower recoil); probs good on hogs and nice to be able to hunt them with an AR style rifle for fast follow-up shots
Great video brother.
Very interesting cartridge!!!
I have no doubt that it could pull double duty.. home defense and short/mid range hunting. I'd guess the recoil is quite light too. Sounds like a great idea 🙂
I doubt you’d want to fire a full power rifle round for home defense, but to say the thing isn’t versatile is a lie.
It makes the case for shooting heavy subsonic loads in older cartridges. If you do not need to fit it in an Ar10 or AR15. It makes the case for shooting big heavy subsonic rounds from 308 Win, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, 9,3x57. You can do sonic or subsonic in all of them. It makes the 35 Whelan(sp) and 338-06 look like winners as well! If your a hand loader and have the action length it is too easy to throat the chamber and seat the bullet out further to gain powder capacity.
Ron you are definitely not a Fudd. As always I appreciate your perspective and how current you stay with firearms developments.
what changed my thinking was the twist in the barrel. while working with 300 blk and very short barrels 8 in. 6 in 5 in and 4 in barrels the needed to increase the twist to properly stabilize the bullet. they found out it does something special. a 3 in 1 twist will have a rotational energy much greater that impact energy. that was the paradigm shift.' rotational energy.' from long heavy barrels throwing heavy fast bullets . to a super fast twist throwing heavy slow bullets. and having the same damage upon impact . really wild stuff.
With a lot of 8.6 loads the bullet actually extends very deeply into the powder column
That Barnes 210 gr. bullet would not be a good choice for hunting because they will no expand at the low velocity of the 8.6 black out! And most of the 338 bullets are made for 338 Winchester Mag velocities not a good choice for hunting.
I was entirely unimpressed with the 8.6 black on paper and just laughed, then I seen the video of the fast twist on ballistics gel and WOW I did not expect that at all.
The video is quite misleading. They poured water on top the 1:3 twist block for a more dramatic affect. They also hit that block 2" higher than the other block, which is why the expansion appears to come out of the top of the block. Go watch it again...
Fast twist on a subsonic bullet is still slower than a regular supersonic bullet. It’s a dumb gimmick
The fast twist is to stabilise very long heavy bullets. Which is really for military needs. They wanted to maximise subsonic performance vs targets wearing body armour, that means using a heavy bullet with very high sectional density to penetrate armour despite low velocity.
Kevin Brittingham also claims that 8.6 Blk puts more energy on target out of a 12" barrel than a 308 does with a 20" barrel because of the 1:3 twist and with 20% less recoil (go watch his video, he says right there). Obsolute horse puckey. Rotational energy does not add to translational energy. If high twist rates were all that, you can rest assured it would have been on the market decades ago. He is certainly not the first person to experiment with faster twist rates.
As for stabilization, you don't need a 1:3 twist to stabilize those bullets, even at subsonic speed, and in fact, over spinning a bullet is detrimental to accuracy at longer ranges. Subsonics will still fly a long way and maintain velocity pretty well (they aren't subjected to the severe drag of supersonic flight). The only thing that makes subsonics difficult to make really accurate is their sensitivity to velocity differences from shot to shot. It doesn't take much velocity change to make a big change in drop.
and its supersonic to get 500k rpm, subsonic it is just the regular spin of a normal rifle in the 256k range @@mdees88
I used to get "the sixgunner" magazine from JD Jones. After he made the whisper, if I remember right, he also made whisper cartridges in a lot of other calibers, up to 50 cal, if I remember right. 338 was one of those calibers but I don't know if it was the same as the 8.6.
His first attempt at a 338 whisper is pretty similar to this, but he didn't have bullets that can terminally perform at that speed, and he uses slower twist and peaked at 300 grains, and he wasn't using modern powders to run subs abd supers in a gas gun.
The 1/3 allows for heavier bullets (maker makes a 350 gr expanding copper bullet) thats better BC, better terminally effect with a fixed top speed. It's a modern recalibration of his old ideas.
I loved your remarks on the whole „fudd“ situation. Most people in the gun community are pretty open minded to other opinions. Have it your way and be polite, we are all on the same team at the end of the day
I only call people a fudd when to their view all you “need” is a fudd gun, that all technological advancement in the last 100+ years is irrelevant and that you don’t “need” it, and constantly attack and look down on the people who disagree, and are perfectly OK with gun bans as long as it doesn’t effect their $3,000 3 shot ultra mag wood stock bolt gun or their $30,000 bespoke over and under shotgun, throwing everyone else under the bus. Without realizing that the anti gunners will be coming for their “high powered sniper rifle,” and “street sweeper” shotgun next.
Excellent content
I wonder what other calibers would become with a twist like that.
Mostly shredded fragments
@@oingoboingo8 even with a high sectional density?
@@BillyBulletPewPew yes. The 8.6 requires solid copper bullets
@@newerest1 you could make other calibers in copper too though.
Hi there Ron. The parent case for the 8.6 blackout is the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Ron, I've been seeing "Blackouts" in deer camps for years. Usually caused from liquid corn or liquid hops and barely. I think I'll pass on this new Blackout just like I passed on those other Blackouts. Thanks for the info thou.
Cheers, Jeff
Ah, you are a wise and cautious skeptic.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors hey now, it has gotten me this far. 👍
@@RonSpomerOutdoors
Ron you should see this .375 from MarkandSam after work channel
Link below: Modern .375 H&H
ua-cam.com/video/cA0AGVP8WKg/v-deo.html
Concentration levels in corn syrup/barley determines timing of the "Blackout" effect ..
Kevin started AAC advanced armament which was silencers mostly and Ar’s then 300 blackout for special forces. Then he sold to Remington and went to work for sig sauer help them develop silencers then he started Q. He also sued Remington and won big settlement
Just ran a chart for the 210-grain super g-1, altitude 3500', max ordinate 4" (I have been using this successfully for 59 yrs. I know you like a 3" max ordinate.) It reached 4" at 125 yds, "0" at 210 and 4" low at about 240yds. 8.4" low at 275yds.'thoght you might be interested. It still has 1342ftlbs but looks like it would wreak havoc with that spin!
Impressive, Stephen!
And that's with a sub optimal bullet. The 210 gr has bad BC for its weight class, but the terminal effect its had in the field seems to be why its been used so much in hunting/testing. The extra spin seems to work magic with this bullet design even at lower velocities.
When manufacturers start making bullets actually designed for this, like makers new 350 gr subsonic bullet, but in the 185-200 gr range, using a tough design with an ultra long ogive... this might start really reaching out.
Look at the technical data on the cutting edge bullets 200 gr MTAC 338 bullet. Long ogive, very high BC, low terminal velocity threshold... if it can handle the spin then I think that bullet might be ideal.
After watching this cartridge get tested I think it’s safe to say it would drop any animal in North America at 100 yards. The twist rate does some crazy stuff, it can sip through multiple gel blocks while still making a pretty good wound cavity.
That insane rotational speed creates a unique surprise on target. its fairly wild to watch in slo mo
It doesn’t. Rotational kinetic energy is very low, even with this absurd twist rate
@@lucastonoli3256 Ballistic testing demonstrated a different result
@@daflea66 They did not, you saw two isolated tests on ballistic gel, saw some explosions inside the gelatin and thought it was something impressive. In reality that can happen if the hot gases gets encapsulated inside the ballistic gel long enough. The comparison video doesn't show the permanent cavity for comparison either, there is no difference there.
Go watch the video again. They hit the 1:3" twist target two inches higher than the other one which is why the expansion protrudes out of the top of the block. They also poured water on top of the 1:3" block for a more dramatic affect...
@@lucastonoli3256 the rotational energy is so that the bullet expands at distance with low velocity. Ian (forgotten firearms) recently made a video explaining this.
I will just stick with my .308
Me too
@@trapperbobpatriot8288 I've got a POF Revolution DI and it shoots subsonic rounds just great. It's a sub MOA AR 15 that shoots.308 and weighs less than 7 pounds.
@@stevenlewis6781 idk why more companies arent doing that: AR10 performance in an AR15 package. Idk why the military didnt go that route long ago