@@renrants I LOVE seasons 1 and 2(not so hot on 3 but it has a hell of a reveal) and 4 is nothing short of spectacular. I wasn't able to watch it till it's final season. But I loved it all the same
The funniest moment for me was definitely the Tuvix'ed version of Steve Stevenson and Lt. Matt the Whale called Swhale Swhalens. "I want a fish!" He was just so derpy looking.
T'Lyn is also promoted to lieutenant (she has one black stripe and one gold one on her little lozenge thingy). Also as you touched on with the violinist example, I've always seen Tuvix as a version of the trolley problem, rather than anything specifically about abortion. No matter what Janeway did, it would be killing one or 2 people. Even the whole "just Tom Riker them" argument doesn't actually solve anything because now you have 2 Tuvixes who don't consent to dying. It's why it's a striking episode because it's willing to get messy when Voyager often leaned on "Janeway is Always Right"
Janeway goes darker than any other captain hoenstly, I just rewatched Equinox Part I and II and it was pretty wild. Janeway might actually be my favorite captain, I love her
the tuvix shirt pattern thing actually really bothered me. the reason tuvix's clothes were like that is because it was a combination of tuvok's starfleet uniform with neelix's crazy shirt. Although it would've been a really funny detail if the tuvixes had started wearing it after rebelling, as their new factional uniform.
The core of the Tuvix problem in the original episode was that Janeway didn't have a 'right' answer. One solution available forced her to effectively murder two people, while the other solution available forced her to directly murder a person. She takes shit for going the direct option, but in point of fact it was the option that involved LESS murder.
Yeah, I personally think she chose the only choice she reasonably could in her position, especially with crewman literally begging her for their friends back 😅
It's also notable that neither Tuvok or Neelix expressed they wished they hadn't been separated, I think it proves she was right about their wishes too
I always thought Tuvix was a trolley problem thing, not abortion- Janeway could refrain from acting and two people would die/stay dead (not diverting the trolley from its' current 2-death track) or she could intervene and only one person would die (diverting the trolley from killing 2 people to only killing 1)
I can see that as well, but I think Star Trek had answered the question often with "the needs of the many" out weighing "the needs of the few" Whereas to me the stuff where Tuvix alludes to them as his parents communicates to me that a connection was being drawn to abortion, although it's an imperfect allegory.
That Klingon ship was actually the one from the Season 2 finale where the captain they showed in this episode was a lower decker who killed the previous captain because he was trying to start a war under false pretenses, which he considered dishonorable. That's what the other two Klingons are bickering about at the start. Their friend is a captain now and doesn't have as much time for them. A lot of people consider Billups asexual, and that adds a whole other angle to the T'anna and Shaxs thing...
There was one way to keep tuvix as well as Neelix and Tuvok around a simple cloning using the transporter like what happened with Riker and Boimler. I know you still have to kill one of them, but it a lot less murky Morally speaking.
I imagine that's the kind of solution Starfleet would've worked out if T'Billups hadn't freaked out and jumped the gun. (Janeway, as the characters point out, had much more limited options.) As it was, though, there just wasn't time.
Something I appreciate more about LDS when compared to PIC (though I love both shows, don’t get me wrong) is that it’s not afraid to be more critical when looking at some of the previous Trek shows. For instance, I can’t imagine PIC having had an episode criticizing an infamously unpopular previous Trek episode (like “Tuvix” from VOY).
Does the Federation even HAVE personal injury attorneys? All we've seen so far is that legal representation exists in a purely layman or ad hoc capacity (i.e. The Measure of a Man). Even if you want to sue civilly, why would you? The citizens of the Federation see it as a moral imperative to use any and all resources to make whole injured parties; that can be anything from cloning new body parts to replicating entire residences if need be. In a society without currency, exactly how much compensation would you sue for? Are you going to ask the doctor to clone you an extra arm? Speaking of extra arms, those that can't be made whole enjoy the rest of their lives on The Farm (Much Ado About Boimler). So Starfleet pretty much has it covered if an officer or two winds up disabled from a holodeck accident. As for deaths, well, if you're Jean Luc Picard your insurance provider is Q, so you're covered. Ren, I'm sorry, but if you're planning on cryo-freezing yourself into the 24th century (The Neutral Zone) you'll probably need a different occupation when you wake up.
The first actually attorney who is just a lawyer that we've seen was probably Neera in SNW, but she's a civil rights attorney. Tbh that's fine though, if lived in the Star Trek universe I'd probably be an artist 😅
@@renrants True, Neera is a civil rights attorney. Also true that the Illyrians weren't Federation citizens. I'm all the more convinced that the Federation has eliminated lawyers for any purpose of representation.
A weird way on how they side step one of the most divisive issues from Voyager. Like the Hybrid Crew doing a Violent Takeover is an Emergency Situation to begin with, and the Cronenbergian Blob probably Desires to be Put Out of its Miserly. Maybe if original Tuvix Episode went Full Cronenberg, might be an interesting way to talk about the issue of Euthanasia, like making Tuvix about the Abortion issue was shaky at best, like maybe it could have addressed the concept of "The Needs of the Many" tho even by that standard many would think the needs of just 2 people isn't enough justification to sacrifice 1person
Yeah, honestly it was just a very ill conceived episode the first time and the execution the second time didn't really impress me, but all the voyager references mostly made up for it 😅
Why was Rutherford pointedly not promoted? Janeway's wife became a third wheel as the pairing with Chakotay became more compelling. In the beginning some sort of bond with Tuvok was hinted at. I'd like to have seen that line developed. Spock and Nurse Chapel with the roles reversed. With transport technology, separating the two plus recreating the combined person should have not been a problem. As for the abortion problem, the conflict, it seems to me, is that the problem lies with controlling a person's choices, largely controlling women's life styles, not about birth. Thank you. Another interesting review. If it was really between the choice of saving two past lives or a new one, that's why Captains get higher pay. It is her responsibility and often she cannot share it.
If they had got to earth and Starfleet could pattern buffer copy out Billups and T'ana, Tillups would have ended up on the Enterprise. Billups engineering skills without his fixation on the Cali, T'ana's medical skills with her more rough edges rounded down by Billups cheerfulness. Absolutely top of class officer at that point. Don't get me wrong, they're both great, but they have reasons they're serving on a California class.
7:31 I mean, the Twovixes *were* attempting an armed takeover. At that point, it was self-defense... though to be honest, I think T'Lyn genuinely forgot about the flower being involved and screwed up. 😆
Too bad there were no cameos of any of the Voyager regulars. Were any of the guest Voyager characters reprised by original actors? The clown, Janeway's holodeck boyfriend? The evil dude from Captain Proton?
To be fair, Janeway couldn't get to Nervala IV so they could whip up a transporter clone and separate HIM into Tuvox and Neelix. #JanewayDidNothingWrong
Oh yeah, honestly I think Janeway made the only choice she could have and I don't think people would be as hard on Picard or Sisko in the same position. 👀
I've been and still playing Baldur's Gate 3 so I'm distracted. I've played 200 hours but I'm moving so slowly I'm barely in Act 2 and I keep restarting. I should just quit the game. Anyways the episode was Ewww but it came together in the end. I didn't recognize a lot of references to Voyager characters. So should I restart my Baldur's game as a Rapier Ranger, a college of lore Bard, or a Life Cleric? :)
I explain I the video, but basically, tuvix is created by accident using material from the bodies of two life forms, to save the life of the "parents" he has to die, it's imperfect because of course, a fetus isn't out here begging for its life, but that feels like the intended message of the episode to me
I loved how they solved the moral dilemma by making it worse.
For real 😅
@@renrants the cartoony nature save us from he horror, thanks god its not anime.
It certainly helps. 😂 Definitely true about some anime, there were a few I'd call "formatively traumatizing"
@@renrants AKIRA
Princess Mononoke is one of my faves but there are so many scary visuals, as a little kid watching it I was both entranced and terrified
"HOLY $H*T. Janeway didn't mess around" that's why we love her. The moment we heard the Jerry Goldsmith I teared up. Goddamn I love LDS
Seriously 😅
@@renrants ENT and VOY are my number 2 favorite series of Trek. Number 1 is obviously TNG. Also I frequently ask my Trek friends....WHY AM I BOIMLER
I've been watching ENT in earnest for the first time and I'm so sad I slept on it for so long because it's really good!
@@renrants I LOVE seasons 1 and 2(not so hot on 3 but it has a hell of a reveal) and 4 is nothing short of spectacular. I wasn't able to watch it till it's final season. But I loved it all the same
I'm still in season 2 and honestly the first two seasons were better than people led me to believe
The funniest moment for me was definitely the Tuvix'ed version of Steve Stevenson and Lt. Matt the Whale called Swhale Swhalens. "I want a fish!" He was just so derpy looking.
That was so cute, I love the little sqeak he makes 😂
It's my way or the Janeway. Who are we kidding . It's always the Janeway
T'Lyn is also promoted to lieutenant (she has one black stripe and one gold one on her little lozenge thingy).
Also as you touched on with the violinist example, I've always seen Tuvix as a version of the trolley problem, rather than anything specifically about abortion. No matter what Janeway did, it would be killing one or 2 people. Even the whole "just Tom Riker them" argument doesn't actually solve anything because now you have 2 Tuvixes who don't consent to dying. It's why it's a striking episode because it's willing to get messy when Voyager often leaned on "Janeway is Always Right"
Janeway goes darker than any other captain hoenstly, I just rewatched Equinox Part I and II and it was pretty wild. Janeway might actually be my favorite captain, I love her
I think the problem I have is that it's apparently possible to clone people with the transporter so you could both have Tuvix and not
@orsonzedd OK, which Tuvix gets to die then? Remember they're identical so both want to live.
@@gaz-l621 one of them is gonna die and they can deal with that
the tuvix shirt pattern thing actually really bothered me. the reason tuvix's clothes were like that is because it was a combination of tuvok's starfleet uniform with neelix's crazy shirt. Although it would've been a really funny detail if the tuvixes had started wearing it after rebelling, as their new factional uniform.
That's fair, I think I just enjoyed the callback so much I didn't mind that it wasn't as logical for it to be there 😅
The core of the Tuvix problem in the original episode was that Janeway didn't have a 'right' answer. One solution available forced her to effectively murder two people, while the other solution available forced her to directly murder a person. She takes shit for going the direct option, but in point of fact it was the option that involved LESS murder.
Yeah, I personally think she chose the only choice she reasonably could in her position, especially with crewman literally begging her for their friends back 😅
It's also notable that neither Tuvok or Neelix expressed they wished they hadn't been separated, I think it proves she was right about their wishes too
Also Voyager is low on crew as many have died at the start. So 2 crew members are worth more than 1.
I always thought Tuvix was a trolley problem thing, not abortion- Janeway could refrain from acting and two people would die/stay dead (not diverting the trolley from its' current 2-death track) or she could intervene and only one person would die (diverting the trolley from killing 2 people to only killing 1)
I can see that as well, but I think Star Trek had answered the question often with "the needs of the many" out weighing "the needs of the few"
Whereas to me the stuff where Tuvix alludes to them as his parents communicates to me that a connection was being drawn to abortion, although it's an imperfect allegory.
That Klingon ship was actually the one from the Season 2 finale where the captain they showed in this episode was a lower decker who killed the previous captain because he was trying to start a war under false pretenses, which he considered dishonorable. That's what the other two Klingons are bickering about at the start. Their friend is a captain now and doesn't have as much time for them. A lot of people consider Billups asexual, and that adds a whole other angle to the T'anna and Shaxs thing...
Ooh both very good catches!
There was one way to keep tuvix as well as Neelix and Tuvok around a simple cloning using the transporter like what happened with Riker and Boimler. I know you still have to kill one of them, but it a lot less murky Morally speaking.
Yeah, but then there'd be no moral weight to the decision
I imagine that's the kind of solution Starfleet would've worked out if T'Billups hadn't freaked out and jumped the gun. (Janeway, as the characters point out, had much more limited options.) As it was, though, there just wasn't time.
Something I appreciate more about LDS when compared to PIC (though I love both shows, don’t get me wrong) is that it’s not afraid to be more critical when looking at some of the previous Trek shows. For instance, I can’t imagine PIC having had an episode criticizing an infamously unpopular previous Trek episode (like “Tuvix” from VOY).
LD does such a good job balancing criticizing trek and writing it a love letter, it's so special in that regard.
Does the Federation even HAVE personal injury attorneys? All we've seen so far is that legal representation exists in a purely layman or ad hoc capacity (i.e. The Measure of a Man). Even if you want to sue civilly, why would you? The citizens of the Federation see it as a moral imperative to use any and all resources to make whole injured parties; that can be anything from cloning new body parts to replicating entire residences if need be. In a society without currency, exactly how much compensation would you sue for? Are you going to ask the doctor to clone you an extra arm?
Speaking of extra arms, those that can't be made whole enjoy the rest of their lives on The Farm (Much Ado About Boimler). So Starfleet pretty much has it covered if an officer or two winds up disabled from a holodeck accident. As for deaths, well, if you're Jean Luc Picard your insurance provider is Q, so you're covered.
Ren, I'm sorry, but if you're planning on cryo-freezing yourself into the 24th century (The Neutral Zone) you'll probably need a different occupation when you wake up.
The first actually attorney who is just a lawyer that we've seen was probably Neera in SNW, but she's a civil rights attorney.
Tbh that's fine though, if lived in the Star Trek universe I'd probably be an artist 😅
@@renrants True, Neera is a civil rights attorney. Also true that the Illyrians weren't Federation citizens. I'm all the more convinced that the Federation has eliminated lawyers for any purpose of representation.
The holodeck "cleaning" is a job that requires many pairs of gloves.
For real!
A weird way on how they side step one of the most divisive issues from Voyager.
Like the Hybrid Crew doing a Violent Takeover is an Emergency Situation to begin with, and the Cronenbergian Blob probably Desires to be Put Out of its Miserly. Maybe if original Tuvix Episode went Full Cronenberg, might be an interesting way to talk about the issue of Euthanasia, like making Tuvix about the Abortion issue was shaky at best, like maybe it could have addressed the concept of "The Needs of the Many" tho even by that standard many would think the needs of just 2 people isn't enough justification to sacrifice 1person
Yeah, honestly it was just a very ill conceived episode the first time and the execution the second time didn't really impress me, but all the voyager references mostly made up for it 😅
Why was the fear clown even in Voyager's computer? That was in an alien VR system, not Voyager's holodeck.
I wondered about that as well, but Janeway did make a holographic consciousness specifically designed to interface with him so maybe that's how? 😅
Presumably, the curator -- in his infinite wisdom -- made a version of him based on the crew logs for one exhibit or another.
My question is; why did the writers name the twovix of Billups and T'anna as T'illups, and not Bill'anna?
That's an excellent question because that works on so many levels 😭
did they REALLY need to make Frigleeman so...attractive?
Legit, so was the Shaxs hybrid 😅
I agree. Most attractive animated bird since Foghorn Leghorn.
Oh my god I somehow didn't realize that rooster had a name until I googled him 😅
Yeah, she didn't look half-bad, did she?
Why was Rutherford pointedly not promoted? Janeway's wife became a third wheel as the pairing with Chakotay became more compelling. In the beginning some sort of bond with Tuvok was hinted at. I'd like to have seen that line developed. Spock and Nurse Chapel with the roles reversed. With transport technology, separating the two plus recreating the combined person should have not been a problem. As for the abortion problem, the conflict, it seems to me, is that the problem lies with controlling a person's choices, largely controlling women's life styles, not about birth. Thank you. Another interesting review. If it was really between the choice of saving two past lives or a new one, that's why Captains get higher pay. It is her responsibility and often she cannot share it.
If they had got to earth and Starfleet could pattern buffer copy out Billups and T'ana, Tillups would have ended up on the Enterprise. Billups engineering skills without his fixation on the Cali, T'ana's medical skills with her more rough edges rounded down by Billups cheerfulness. Absolutely top of class officer at that point. Don't get me wrong, they're both great, but they have reasons they're serving on a California class.
That's an interesting point 🤣
If they had managed that, would Till'ups basically count as T'ana and Billups' child? Man, I wonder how the Queen Mum would react to that...
7:31 I mean, the Twovixes *were* attempting an armed takeover. At that point, it was self-defense... though to be honest, I think T'Lyn genuinely forgot about the flower being involved and screwed up. 😆
Yeah she biffed it pretty hard 😅
Wesley did the same thing with his container in tng with the nannites
Good catch!
@@renrants lids and star trek don't go together well Lmfao
Too bad there were no cameos of any of the Voyager regulars. Were any of the guest Voyager characters reprised by original actors? The clown, Janeway's holodeck boyfriend? The evil dude from Captain Proton?
I actually don't know, I'll have to investigate!
@@renrants I loved it when Sonya Gomez from TNG turned up on Lowe Decks and was voiced by the original actor.
Every time there's a cameo it makes me SO happy
I don't believe so. All of the bit characters seem to have been drop-ins.
6:25 Clearly, OSHA regulations have been long lost to the winds of time. 😆
To be fair, Janeway couldn't get to Nervala IV so they could whip up a transporter clone and separate HIM into Tuvox and Neelix. #JanewayDidNothingWrong
Oh yeah, honestly I think Janeway made the only choice she could have and I don't think people would be as hard on Picard or Sisko in the same position. 👀
No one batted an eye when Riker destroyed the clones in Up The Long Ladder 👀
And yet they didn't become BIll'Ana...
Is there list of all the different Tuvix hybrids?
That's a good question 😅
I've been and still playing Baldur's Gate 3 so I'm distracted. I've played 200 hours but I'm moving so slowly I'm barely in Act 2 and I keep restarting. I should just quit the game. Anyways the episode was Ewww but it came together in the end. I didn't recognize a lot of references to Voyager characters. So should I restart my Baldur's game as a Rapier Ranger, a college of lore Bard, or a Life Cleric? :)
I haven't played it so I can't give any pro tips, but I hope you're having fun 😅❤️
Halloween episode of cronoberg fly movie
Wait, was that Ruthford program creating the borg?
Omg, Jane dump her hologram husband on Voyager.
I think it was one of seven of nine's nanoprobes 😅
I kinda miss Swhale Swhalens.
He was a good little guy
@@renrants He just wanted a fish!
How does he remember his wife?
I think it's just supposed to be a joke, these also no real reason for him to be evil either 🤣
I'm still thinking of how to promote you on Star Trek Shitposting.
Bless you 😅❤️ I post my content there sometimes but I always worry I'll annoy the admins by doing it too much
Wait tuvix was an abortion allegory? Wtf how did ee get abortion from that!?🤷♂️
I explain I the video, but basically, tuvix is created by accident using material from the bodies of two life forms, to save the life of the "parents" he has to die, it's imperfect because of course, a fetus isn't out here begging for its life, but that feels like the intended message of the episode to me
It's a legit way to read that episode.