Moshing Is CANCELED.
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- Опубліковано 12 гру 2023
- Is moshing or "hardcore dancing" a problem? Finn Mckenty reacts to Tank The Tech.
Tank The Tech's video: • The Problem With Hardc...
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Finn, you're friends with Tank? So, why don't you guys colab & make a few short videos for YT & TT talking about HOW to do both of these dances at the same time at a show, _safely?_ Just as Tank said, "Push pit at the front with hardcore at their back." Basically, hardcore are protecting the moshpit from the rest of the crowd. A symbiotic dance floor. 😂
Hardcore dancing is bad for all alternative music environments. People should be able to show up for the music and not have to worry about a couple of assholes throwing fists in the pit.
Your argument of "know what you're getting into" is bad. No reasonable person goes to a concert expecting to get into a fight
@@pikachuhoodie it’s not about expecting to get into a fight, it’s about understanding that there is a chance of getting hurt. “Hardcore dancing”, spinkicking, swinging that stuff is just fun. It’s more fun than push putting. Too a degree I do agree that one shouldn’t be kicking and swinging to non heavy/violent music but again violent music like hardcore, beatdown, some death metal, some deathcore calls for violent moshing.
Finn, youre from Cincy?? so am I. What venues were you going to back in the day? Was The Void still a thing when you were around?
I'm from Philly. The hardcore guys were not tough. They were just angry kids who couldn't get laid. I've seen a lot of them get beat up for there stupid flailing.
Good morning posers.
Tf you say to me
Good morning, son.
Morning 👋🏻
🥰
Hellooooooo
At 43 years old, I’m now firmly in the camp of watching shows from a comfy seat whilst sipping an Earl Grey.
After literally breaking my neck in a pit decades ago... this is the way. I still get the urge on occsssian, wise go with a buddy or wife who knows to say no when you're like " hey can u hold my hat and my beer real quick...?"
I'm the same age and stay the fuck out of the pit. Unlike when I was a kid in the 90s I'm a veteran now with enough injuries to fill a lifetime. I don't need more.
@@williamcharles7340 hitting 40 myself and it hilarious cause fuck the pits were fucking awesome back in the day now I would be hard pressed to jump in one but I think I got 1 more in me lol
Hell, i am 30 in 2 months and I'm nearing the same stance as you. I remember being young and fearless when it came to this stuff going to shows in my teens
I’ll be 42 in April, I’ve felt this way since I was 12. 🤷🏻♂️☕️ moshing is stupid lol.
So the first opener was actually Archetypes Collide, which was like a heavy Linkin Park and had all the teenage fans. Bodysnatcher was after then, followed by Emmure, then We Came As Romans.
Always love hearing your takes on this stuff, Finn. I feel like we could trade a lot of wild stories from shows.
Finn says you guys are friends. But has he invited you to the barbecue?
I love Archetypes Collide but who in their right mind would book them with Bodysnatcher and Emmure? That just seems like it’s asking for problems
Tank!!!
I saw Archetypes when they toured with Trivium/Beartooth, was pretty impressed
Hey, I saw that tour to. I liked them to. Vocalist was pretty humble and was bullshitting with the crowd by the mercy table and spent a few minutes talking to everyone that came up
I went to go see Meshuggah and Converge last year. The Converge guys wanted to throw hands while the Meshuggah guys just wanted to polyrhythmically headbang. Whenever some hardcore guy would start hitting too many people, the metal dudes would swarm him and throw him out of the moshing area.
I just saw Meshuggah last weekend. Nobody was hardcore dancing luckily (imo that would be ridiculous) but plenty of people were moshing.
Polyrhythmically headbang 😅
Polyrythmically headbang is hilarious lmao
@@evanperkinns9039that's interesting. I saw Meshuggah last week in Cincinnati and nobody was moshing. I was kinda disappointed, although a part of me was glad I didn't have to worry about how I was gonna navigate a mosh pit.
Metal dudes are so much cooler
People should be responsible for who they hit... Hardcore dancers should want to protect their expression and police themselves. That's how we always did it.
See, this…exactly what blows my mind. I don’t understand this new generation where ALL they do is crowd kill. All you have to do is STAY IN THR PIT! If you’re going to hardcore dance WATCH out for the rest of the crowd who is there just to watch and experience the performance of the BAND LOL not hard, we all use to do it and made sure not to kick somebody in the back of the head if they were merely just watching the band with their girlfriend/boyfriend/friends
That's my take as well.
Like obviously, if you see people hardcore "dancing" avoid them. But the take of "this is violent music, and that's how they dance" doesn't absolve you of responsibility to not fucking hit people who don't want to be hit. Just because someone was in the wrong place because they didn't research every band on a show list to see if one of them has people throwing punches and kicks and shit, doesn't mean it's acceptable in any way to hit them. Pull them aside and suggest they get out of the way to avoid accidents but don't just crack them and go "hur durr, not my fault"
need to bring back crews
This is really my problem with Finn and Tank's takes. If you're throwing fists in the pit, go for it, but it's your responsibility to make sure you don't fxck up any bystanders.
Agreed! My friends and I would go pretty crazy. But we'd always just beat on each other, because we knew it was in good fun and we could take it. I hate when people get aggressive with people they aren't sure want to participate in that.
The issue I've been encountering lately is younger people going in the pit, and being angry that people would have the audacity to mosh or dance in the pit.
I've seen the opposite issue. It's usually old head punk or metal people that don't understand they are at a hardcore show and try to police the pit. I love all pits. You just need to know where you are. The number of older metal guys I've seen start shit at hardcore shows is insane.
They will be fortnight dance battling in 2033.
It ain’t a daycare. ITS THE PIT!
That’s been an issue forever too. I’ve always chalked it up to just being incredibly uninformed or a lack of awareness of what they’re getting into.
Because moshing and dancing interrupts them from trying to record with their phones or take selfies......
I remember the opposite happening once. This one hardcore kid was doing that shit during the opener and kicked someone outside of the pit in the face, didn't apologize and subsequently got his ass beat by like 6 or 7 metalheads. You definitely gotta know the crowd.
Every metal kid has some "story" like this that never actually happened.
@@lza5735 ok but it did happen. I don't know why you'd feel the need to contradict someone you don't even know in a UA-cam comment about something they have firsthand knowledge of and you don't, but whatever bigs your head up I guess...
@@lza5735 There's plenty of instances of hardcores getting checked for slam dancing at metal shows.
Good for them, that's awesome 😆
Just people who never go out and have boring lifes... they think it only happens in fiction ^^ @@nickudeschini4812
I love hardcore but won’t go to shows anymore. I don’t want my eye socket broken.
I love how in a super recent video Finn said (in so many words), "I don't really have crazy stories about being at shows [back in the day]."
... but in this story, he's like, "So, anyway, my friend was stabbed and almost died in the pit." 😂 🤷♂️
After so many shows you do forget a lot of things I was explaining a drive by shooting I got stuck between once and everyone was saying wait today ? No it it was probably a month ago I literally just forgot it happened it’s kinda common where I’m from
@@off6848weird flex but ok
That wasn't really crazy in the 1990s.
@@jcook693 explain in what world is being between a gang fight is a flex ?
Can confirm that Bodysnatcher pits are some crazy shit. They opened for Slaughter to Prevail in 2019(?) I believe, and I was pretty close to the front (admittedly, the crowd was really small). There were some hardcore fans behind me, and they were doing their thing, no harm to me. However, the guy behind me wasn't so lucky. One of the kids in the pit picked up a full trashcan, one of those heavy-duty grey ones, spun it around and hit this dude in the back with it, lmao. The dude who got hit was a tall, muscular guy, so he shrugged it off, but security was not happy that garbage was now spilled everywhere, and that someone just used a piece of venue property to swing on someone, so two guards came up and dragged the kid out of the venue. It was an eventful couple of minutes.
Yeah the whole thing that people seem to not realize is that Bodysnatcher seems to attract a lotta foul play for a band playing at the national level. I saw them headline this year and really didn't mosh, stood at the front though. Chick to the right of me ended up getting KO'd by some dude spin kicking through the audience. Dude hit me pretty good in the chest, but man that chick next to me wasn't even moshing or even close to the edge and got knocked out. No bueno, hope she got better.
@TheRealSaintNickNorthside I won't lie to you, their fans are pretty nasty, from what I've seen/experienced. I've been at other hardcore/hardcore-adjacent shows where the fans are fine, but Bodysnatcher fans seem kinda overly aggressive
@TheRealSaintNickNorthside a woman getting hit or kicked like that is especially uncool. The worst injury I've ever gotten, personally, was when I waltzed into an Angelmaker pit. I was ignorant to how diehard their fans were at the time, I think I was 16 or so, and I got absolutely clobbered. My nose was bruised for weeks, it's a miracle it wasn't broken
It's weird, I wouldn't even call body snatcher deathcore. They have that influence but it almost sounds more hardcore or beat down it just sounds more pissed
@barrygomez5968 yeahhh, they were involved in that downtempo movement in the mid-late 2010s with like Black Tongue and The Last Ten Seconds of Life, but always had an overtly more hardcore sound, I agree with you.
I posted this on a video about Knocked Loose playing Coachella, but it seems to apply here as well.
At a Mastodon show in 2009, a large group of people got shoved over in a massive rush, myself included. One person was underneath my ankle, while another was on top of my knee on the same leg, thus I was pinned. That was the last thing I remember before being hauled out of the venue by security. Someone landed on my ankle while I was pinned, and it caused three separate fractures. The outside of my foot was pointing straight up towards my face, and my ankle was the size of a cantaloupe.
I had good enough medical insurance to knock the hospital bill down from $32,000 to $2,000 (out of pocket max for a calendar year), plus a $700 ambulance ride to the ER. A show that was $35 for the ticket ended up costing me close to $3,000, out of pocket. Fortunately my boss was super cool, and did not make me go on short-term disability for 2/3 pay until I healed, as we were in the slowest part of the work year with holidays coming up. It took me three months to walk again, and I never regained full range of motion in that ankle. I still have all the metal in my ankle 14 years later. I consider myself lucky that someone noticed and cared enough to alert security that I was unconscious and seriously injured. Anymore I wouldn't be surprised if people went "Meh" and let me get trampled to death.
What's my point? Two-fold...
One, its possible to get seriously injured or even killed in any sort of large crowd of people that are caught up in the moment instead of focusing on situational awareness. All it would have taken for me to get killed was to have someone land on my neck hard enough while I was on the ground unconscious. How many stories do we hear on the news about someone getting hit in the head and being knocked out, only for their head to be the first thing that hits the ground. Easy for that person to die to trauma or be a vegetable for the rest of their life.
Two, and this is a big one; that people who go to concerts and say they derive fun from moshing that results in being injured, haven't been actually hurt, physically or financially. Oh hi there Mr. Super Hardcore Mosher guy, you got a black eye? A nasty cut? A missing tooth? Cute, get back to me and tell me how cool all that shit is when you spend two nights in the hospital, and three months on crutches.
hear hear, enough of that shite already
Lol plenty of us have been injured and still throw down in the pit. Just because you’re too soft for it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist
@@curtiscantbmxwell4897 Where did I say it shouldn't exist? You sound and talk like someone that's suffered nothing more than minor cuts and bruises.
The first show back from covid, moshing at a Hardcore show, and got kicked in the chest so hard by a friend, my right lung collapsed, and I spent 3 days in the hospital. At the beginning of this year, I broke my arm over some guys face head that apparently just walked into the pit with no spacial awareness.
I also have plenty of friends with similar stories. It happens about as much as you think.
I still love moshing at HC shows. To me, it feels like skating a real big pool at a park with friends. There is a lot of risk of injury, and that's a part of what makes it exciting. But also, the greatest chance for injury comes from New people that don't get the rotation and just skate out while someone is trying to bomb the ramp.
Not disregarding your opinion, but I'm sure plenty of old skateboarders have spent time in the hospital too. Sometimes the risk of injury is worth it for something you really like, even if it is kinda dumb.
Experience* not opinion. Where's the UA-cam comment edit button?
Bassist of Archetypes Collide here (the opener before Bodysnatcher on this tour). Watching the crowd during this tour, the biggest thing I noticed while we were playing was if there was a hardcore dancer in the pit swinging their arms or kicking, that would sometimes discourage moshers from going into the pit, even if it was only 1 hardcore dancer. There is one part of our set where you could tell which group was taking over the pit. During the build up to the breakdown, either there was a mini wall of death for the moshers or hardcore dancers started going off before the drop. Nothing against anyone, just an observation. Still had a blast on this tour.
I remember in the early 90’s, going to see Primus, and there being two or three guys, who were just trying to hurt people, then one of them threw bottles until Les called the show. He pointed the guys out, and they got beat up after the show.
The hardcore shows, often had people who used it as a way to take a shot at someone they didn’t like. Whether it was the guy who got the cheap shot, and/or his friends, if they reacted, it usually stopped the show, and the kids mostly left.
He shouldn’t say_kids_ when he talks about this, because it’s usually adults 20-30, acting like children.
Really glad I got to see you guys in providence, it’s a shame the rest of the show got cancelled
My issue is when people create a pit/drag people into a pit who don’t want to be in one. I saw Spiritbox, Brand Of Sacrifice and Loathe on the same bill and some dickheads kept pushing the mosh pits to the front of the stage and people kept getting hurt when they didn’t want to be in it.
I remember when I was six, I went to see my uncles hardcore band. they went by "dread" at the time. my uncle threw me on his shoulders during the set and let me do vocals, and then just threw me into the crowd of about 80 people. I saw some kid in a nike tech fleece and some air jordans, hit my uncle around the head and stabbed him in the leg. and half the crowd just smashed the shit out of this guy. broken nose, fractured jaw and bruises and cuts along his face. the local news blamed the crowd, yet the kid started it. his mum complained yet her kid recieved prison time. it doesn't start violent but if you push peoples buttons IT WILL.
Wild that your uncle threw you into a moshpit at 12 man 😭
@@syko.uk. the guy has some serious issues, but I loved pits as a kid, and people never targeted me, they actually just crowd surfed me half the time anyway.
I was a metalhead who got into hardcore through bands like Knocked Loose. I made the effort to learn how to hardcore dance because I was a guest in the scene and wanted to assimilate. It ended up being the most fun I’ve ever had at shows - I like two stepping the best lol
Hardcore should never change, but I do wish people cared more about the safety of others because we’re still a community of like-minded individuals who should be protecting each other
“Hardcore should never change but also please change”
i appreciate you for putting the effort to respect the hardcore scene. like when i go to punk and metal shows i do what they do and not slam dance. but yea alot of metal ppl ive seen coming to KL shows and expecting to push mosh but thats not gonna happen and im happy that theres a person like you that respects what show youre at.
@@Blueskyredrocks I’m just expressing a wish, not making a demand
Genuine question, is hardcore about intentionally hurting other people in the community? I accept that I can get hurt at a hardcore show since they’re reckless, but I didn’t think the point was to actually hurt people. The shows in my area aren’t like that anyway
Same dude, I've been a metalhead since I was a kid, but went to see a a bill with Fallujah and saw the dancing. Jumped right in, learned how to do what they do, and now I go to more -core shows than anything else.
@@rorobear1940 I went to grudge city SLC shows in the early 2000'es if you are in the pit or standing by the pit you'll get hit. One time the singer of aftermath of a train wreck just walked around the pit punching everyone in the face (I didnt have a problem with it) Hardcore for me is kinda like self harm put to music so the entire point of going was TOO get punched in the face at a show. After I stoped being self destructive I stopped going to hardcore shows.
I've seen 200 Stab Wounds a few times. They are pretty solidly death metal, but they have a lot of HC guys dancing alongside a regular pit at their shows. Everyone seems to co-exist and get the rules pretty well.
I saw cattle decapitation recently. Seemed like everyone coexisted pretty well with hardcore dancing and traditional push pit throughout the whole show(opened with castrator, sanguisugabogg, and immolation). There was just one dude who stood at the edge of the pit waiting for people to run by him and would blind side them to the floor. Kept doing this until he tried on someone way bigger than him and got knocked out
From about 2003-2008 it was pretty common in my local scene to have kids push moshing in front of the stage while dudes slammed or whatever behind and it seemed to be able coexist in a way, was also kind of a high point for our local scene when a lot of the best bands to come out of the area were at their peak.
The local scene in vegas was pretty good back in that time.
You're totally, I forgot that was a thing actually, but it totally was - push pit was front middle, and hardcore dancing was nearer the back and at the middle. Everywhere else was a safe zone. That was actually a good setup. I hate nowadays that the hardcore dancers are right at the front, spoiling it for everyone
Exactly! You did whatever but there was a level of respect still there.
Here in London Ontario Canada I remember it being like that in my local scene
Hey Finn. Cincinnati fan here. I was at that Megadeth, Machine Head, Suicide Silence gig in Covington 2009. Didn't know anything about Suicide Silence at the time but the fans I happened to speak with were quite pleasant. It was a wild crowd, but when I fell during a pit someone got me up. That was a great gig. RIP Mitch.
We had some hardcore kids doing their little hardcore dancing at a Bad Religion show in Jacksonville back in 2002…. Why they were doing their dumb spin kicks and fighting ghost at a punk show, I don’t know. I was on the outside of the pit and this kid did a spin kick thing and kicked me in the ribs. I ended up catching his leg with my arm and started walking him around the pit. Next thing I know, like 5 of his buddies came rushing out to save him, even though I wasn’t being violent, just letting him know to stop doing that dumb shit, little did they realize, we were at a punk show. I was there with about 18 friends of mine. Amazingly, they didn’t want to fight when they realized they were the ones outnumbered
fighting ghost haha
@@zeitok8 that’s literally what it looks like when they do that shit 😂
And then everyone started clapping
I think this is all fine as long as people are aware that they can put someone in serious danger if they're not careful. You can hardcore dance and pseudo-fight people in the pit but remember, people can really get hurt in more ways than just losing a few teeth if you're not being aware. If you think you're too cool to care about that, wait until someone's serious injury, or potentially something worse, is on you and only you because you hit them the wrong way or a bit too hard.
Not to be a b**** but especially with all we know about head injuries these days
@@jcook693 Dont let anyone tell you you're a bitch because you care about not hurting other people. That's the issue with hardcore kids. Not the moshing, it's this culture of being "hard af"
As a 43 year old hardcore AND metal fan..... this is why i just sit in the Mezz nowadays.
I remember this debate was insanely prevalent during the recent Motionless in White tour. Because the openers were Knocked Loose, After the Burial and Alpha Wolf. You could imagine MIW had a stronger audience with plenty of younger women and people just not at all into that stuff, but countless stories of crowd killers and violence during the openers. Interesting debate because yeah, most of the bands end up being more intense mosh bands but the crowd is primarily there for Motionless who got insanely popular for their more radio songs (and I guess Slaughterhouse but still) recently and a lot of people aren’t going to be there for Knocked Loose style moshing. Definitely can see where both sides are coming from on that one.
I’m old and used to hardcore dance to MIW back in the Creatures days 😅. They’ve lost me a bit but good on them for keeping it going. That lineup is pretty stacked, hope you had an awesome time!
It was great to be able to leave after Knocked Loose.
Yeah they are playing an upcoming show in my town (H-Town, lol) and I’m attending, and me being a young-adult woman have to say, the moshing is always something I worry about when I’m at a show. I don’t feel like the headliners are the type to have moshers, (it’s In This Moment and some other lesser knowns, I believe 🤔) but I don’t freakin know honestly.
I’m hoping the crowd will mostly consist of those teenager/fangirl types or those younger people who at the very least don’t have the strength of a full grown man that bench presses until his veins are popping out angrily. 😂
I was at a Knocked Loose show in Fort Wayne Indiana and they had two pits. I was in the "pushpit" and got shoved out, little disoriented, and ended up in the hardcore dancing/crowd killing pit. Got out of there fast lmao.
I was at a venue where one of the venues rules was not hardcore dancing or "karate moshing" as they called it. There was a push pit going in during a left to suffer show and someone started throwing spin kicks in the middle of it. They hit me in the mouth and I bit off part of my lip. I think hardcore dancing is fine except when there is clearly a push pit going on and you know you're going to hurt people that don't want it.
Being in a metalcore/hardcore band. I've played so many shows where as soon as one person starts hardcore dancing, everyone steps back and it actually takes away from crowd engagement. On the otherhand when going to shows, I've been more concerned with hardcore dancers then I have been with moshers.
I went to a Motionless in White show recently as an elder metal head. I was stunned to see there was NO pit. When I kinda tried to start one, I was told threateningly by the surrounding crowd that I needed to stop. It was wild to me. Wasn't aware of the crowd prior to the show.
Weird that there was no pit at all. But the most important thing is to read the room. Back when hardcore dancing was popular I'd see it at ska shows once in while. It's fine to hardcore dance when a hardcore band is playing. But when the ska band starts playing stop hardcore dancing and start skanking.
Was this the one with Knocked Loose, After the Burial and Alpha Wolf opening?
@@jacee8094 I went to that show in Vegas. There was a decent sized pit at that one, but admittedly, a lot more mild than the openers. However, I think that was more because the actual show was well put together and people were too busy appreciating that to mosh. I mean they had videos, dancers and laser lights so I was looking at that instead of moshing.
You're at a show for 12-15 year old girls. What did you expect?
@@MrKylederp Motionless in white started 20 years ago lol. How are they designed for 12 year old girls.
Recently I saw Terror open up for TBDM. The vocalist for terror started by saying "we dont want anyone to get hurt, we're just here to have fun etc." So i appreciate that they are aware enough to kind of warn the crowd about that. As soon as they started playing the crowd behind the pit took like 10 steps back as well which i found funny.
Finn: “these are hardcore guys that go specifically to start some sh!t.”
Also Finn: “So, these are hardcore kids who aren’t going out of their way to start some sh!t, but will finish it”
Because every scene has a few of em who try to instigate shit. Majority dont
Lol until they get finished screwing w the right one.
The biggest problem is now more than ever before EVERYONE thinks their way is the right way and everyone else is wrong, unfortunately. Respecting what others find fun or respecting others' ideas on things falls last on 99% of people's lists these days.
Most accurate comment
How do you respect violent psychopaths
Imagine going to a hard music concert, getting into a mosh, then being suprised that you get hit 😂
My first show I ever went to was that same tour with Cannibal Corpse and Hatebreed. I was 15 years old and was there to see Trivium. I was a clueless metal head and got elbowed in the head and a guy jumped from behind me and dropped me from what felt like the sky. Every show since then that I’ve been to hasn’t come nearly as close to the violence I witnessed there.
I got my ass kicked in a Cannibal Corpse pit around that time, although thankfully no really bad injuries. One dude did get carried out from getting hit accidentally. Great show.
Push pit > things I don’t understand
- your local 27yo metalhead
The way you described the Suicide Silence show was exactly what I remember from seeing Sick of it All open for Slayer in Philly in 1998 or 99. You could clearly tell who was there to see who and the metal guys got out of the way during Sick of it All
Been to many thrash and death metal shows - had my jeans ripped in half once, lost my shoes, gotten knocked down and dragged up by a bunch of moshers, crowd surfing...always a good time. Went to one local hardcore show and got my nose broke, zero sense of fun in the air, bunch of creeps trying to out-tough each other - lame.
Imagine going to a hardcore show and not wanting to get punched in the face.
Glad you are still a hardcore kid at heart. I crossed over from punk and guys like you were always there.
I remember back in the day as a kid growing up and going to shows on Long Island learning about groups like BBH and Thug Squad and shit and being like "wait....really?"
I feel like the biggest issue is situational awareness. You have to be aware of what you're getting yourself into. If you know a neighborhood has safe drivers, you're still gonna look both ways before crossing the street. The same should be true for a show. When a band is starting and you see that these people are doing shit more akin to an anime fight rather than a buoy bobbing in the harbor and that's not your thing, it's a good idea to get out of there.
Neglect was from Long Island right?
@@the_real_tay_loud2072 I'm not familiar with them but I don't doubt it. There were a lot that I didn't even know of. I think DYHO was a NYC group that liked to come to Long Island and fuck shit up
Hooooo boy I remember getting fucked up by a couple of Thug Squad dudes at Broadway Bar when it was still called Broadway Bar
@@georgearrivals I remember getting in so many fights at Broadway bar during shit like The Merciless Concept 🤣 good times good times
@@about7grams Fuck yeah I remember bands like TMC and Refuge it was the wildest shit lol
Went a Knocked Loose/Motionless in White show and the crowd transitioned pretty well between hardcore karate and push-pits with a blend of both. It was awesome.
Great video. As a retired hardcore kid from the 90s. This brought shit back lol. Those were the days but yes the clash of styles were a small issue back then.
But I can only imagine how it’s now esp w how society is now.
I actually went to a metal show recently and there wasn’t even a pit at all. Not sure if it was a venue thing or if moshing and dancing isn’t as prominent as it once was.
Hopefully it will never be a thing again.
At 46 years old, I stay away from any sort of physical contact. Hardcore karate kicking, moshing, crowd surfing. Leave me the hell alone. It took all I got to leave my couch past 7pm.
When I was a teen it was the exact opposite. People who tried to hardcore dance in the pit got smashed by the metal kids.
~2001... that was a tentpole year after the sharp increase in the quantity of rookie moshers hardcore dancing and we know this now because AI has been charting year over year pit populations by scanning old show videos uploaded to youtube. Easycore music was an easy transition for kids who frequented hot topic and who moshed at warp tour for the first time. Sadly that type of creditential isnt worth a whole lotta scene points and would never be enough to bail anyone out of getting beat up at a show in a basement or vfw in the garden state. Finn another great video, thank you.
As a song writer I would like to sincerely apologize to anyone who was ever injured as a result of moshing during any breakdowns I have written or performed. I thought you could handle it.
All joking aside, I had acl surgery from a ligiment tear I got at a hatebreed perserverence tour in Philly. The pain after the nerve block wore off post surgery was like nothing I've ever experienced in my life. I became addicted to opioids (both prescribed and from the street - this was pre fentanyl and herion becane a cheaper solution for an expensive problem) and it took about a decade for me to stop abusing them. I lost my corporate suit and tie job because I couldn't stay clean. It took me years to get out of that hole. All that being said, I know hardcore and metal don't need moshing to survive but it does make them both better. Crowd participation is the ultimate symbol of applause some underground music scenes. No one piles on or 2 steps for the bands they think suck, but I'm sure there are exceptions like with everything. I often time write and compose music completely structured to encourage violence, but I dont want anyone to get hurt. Is that naive of me?... I dont think everyone should need head gear at a show, just be considerate and aware of your surroundings. My next band will def sell mouth pieces at our merch table
In summary. Whichever side you are on, read the fucking room. Easy as that.
Can't wait to see what happens at Dillinger and Carbomb next year.
Hate that moshing is getting shat on lately, I’m only 29 but I feel like a boomer in saying that it’s a bunch of no-fun-having, Pearl clutching softies who see a couple isolated cases of no self awareness and treat it like it’s law.
im 39 and feel the same😅
but I know that HC kids will forever be assholes it will stay a scary live show n That's that
I saw Terror, Dying Fetus, and Knocked Loose in the same bill in a tiny venue. It was so sick and both scenes seemed to be very respectful of each other.
When I was a kid we would say “fight the invisible ninjas” to initiate hardcore dancing. My friends and I would go to countless shows before my one friend finally jumped into the pit and fought those ninjas for 47 seconds. This is back in the day when there was just the one type of dancing at these shows.
I still call it fighting invisible ninjas
Reminds me of an old venue I used to frequent as a kid that used to hold a lot of beatdown shows. You would see the craziest shit, half the crowd was 40 and half the crowd was 16. Alcohol everywhere and it turned into fight club.
Then the metalheads took the place over and it was a total vibe switch, they'd start checking IDs when they sold booze and booking 16 year old Megadeth cover bands and local prog bands. Wasn't uncommon to see middle aged soccer moms there to support their son's band. Shit was a trip.
I lived in Cincy from 06 to 09. The hardcore kids controlled the crowds. The vibe of the crowd was completely different when they showed up.
At big shows growing up, push pits were always at the front by the barrier and all the kids throwing down were behind them. It just naturally formed that way.
Its funny, back in the day when I first got involved with this type of music scene, I was introduced to the "hardcore dancing" style of pits and observed what was happening before ever getting involved. It depended on the band or whatever and the type of crowds they drew, but in Albany NY in mid-late 2000s, people generally understood what was going on. You cleared out for the beatdown hardcore bands because thats when the really violent ones would go around crowd punching and spin kicking the pit perimeter. Most of the time though it was "give each person their space" and if you didnt adhere to the "rules" you got your face re-arranged. It was an understanding passed along to those unfamiliar or new to the scene.
These days, Im too old to do that shit. My neck and back and legs cant handle violently whipping yourself around, never mind taking someone's foot to your mouth or a fist to the back of the head, but there was always groups who were close-knight who looked after each other. Violence comes with violent music.
Some TikTok girl tried to cancel a local band here in Boston for not stopping their set when she got punched and then went on TikTok and made a video about how they are evil and encourage violence(which is true) and that hardcore needs to stop being violent. It’s annoying because image someone came into your music scene and tried to tell your entire scene to change something that has been an integral part for decades.
One time I was at a metalcore show (headlined by underoath) and between sets some people in their 30s standing behind me were talking about how “that kid in the Sex Pistols shirt needs to get his ass kicked.” I’m a big guy, so at one point they got my attention and basically tried to take a pit hit out on this kid.
I looked for him during the next set… he was just some 18 y/o dude doing fairly tame hardcore dancing. Seemed to be having a great time & not hurting anyone. No crowdkilling, just horsing around in the pit.
Point is, metalheads today are completely unaware of hardcore culture. Sure it seems violent and it’s not for everyone, but the pit is not the place to get uptight about it imo
exactly. It's always the insecure basement dweller metal dude who loves fantasizing about glassing people or sneaking in brass knuckles, when in reality they never go to underground DIY shows and just go to big concerts when their favorite metal band comes to town and get pissed when maybe a younger hardcore band brings out kids who want to dance and have fun. So they try to ruin everyone's fun when they could just stand to the side with their arms folded headbanging and keep to themselves. people talk about "crowdkilling" so much but then it's usually never that and they don't even know what that really is cause they haven't been to an actual beatdown or slam show where that is quite literally the entire point of the music and the way it's written: beating down and slam dancing.
For some reason in the early 2000's Unearth loved coming up to Bangor Maine and play at the KoC Hall for 40~50 kids. Typically their openers were local bands of all different genre's and the pits were all kids of crazy. Hardcore dancing was relatively unknown to the group of kids I went to those shows with so it was always a wild ride getting a heel to your head in the middle of a push pit
Bodysnatcher is meant to be experienced live
I’ll have to disagree slightly on the start date of violent pits . My first show was Cro Mags with Leeway in 89 at the 9:30 DC . Pretty hardcore ( no pun intended) pit , and the Sick of it All show that same year pretty dam intense . Also the local shows I played / attended in that era were violent for sure . It seems that that really started in the mid to late 80’s . Pro tip . I played football and played in a hardcore/metal and a straight hardcore band in high school. I used leverage tactics in learned at practice and applied them to deal with asshole , bully “dancers “ . Just get low and push em back hard while keeping your vitals protected . Lowest man usually wins 😉
I stopped when I saw kids practicing their mosh-moves by the bathroom. When dancing became an expectation
Another thing to mention is most of us come from a scene where everyone knows each other and at the smaller shows where everyone is friends you go hard af with your friends. The only time when crowdkilling truly shines is when it’s done amongst friends😂💯
I saw Hatebreed at Tattoo the Earth tour in Chicago in 2000.
A little after their set, Jamey Jasta appeared at the rear of the crowd near the food vendors carrying a box of Hatebreed merch which he promptly tossed into the crowd of their fans.
It was like watching a zookeeper feed the gators, except the gators could throw punches.
Probably 50% of the merch got ripped in half during the melee, the box looked like it had been through a shredder, and multiple people were bleeding.
It was identical to the pit that had formed during their performance earlier that day.
Don't try to join a pack of hyenas if you arent a hyena.
This is why we can't have nice things.
That’s the funniest shit ever 😂
Hardcore dancing and moshing have been butting heads for a very long time and as a 37-year-old who is old school when it comes to moshing, I never understood the hardcore dancing or whatever it is because it never made sense to me
I’m constantly have to contend with these sorts of issues at the bus stop. Picking’ up change is a particularly popular move.
Violent pits are dumb as fuck honestly. The pit is great when its just running and pushing/shoulder checking etc. Crowd killing and throwing punches/kicks is just unnecessary and disrespectful imo
I went to a Social Distortion show and some guy was windmilling and doing spin kicks. It was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
Social Deeznutz
@@nowimpsnoposers big if true
@@evanperkinns9039 balls in chains
I’m biased because I know hardcore dancing is stupid and I’m not afraid of saying it. Like sure, start kicking and punching the air around you in a crowd and expect everyone else to move because you’re having an episode.
Don't go to hardcore shows then. Easy.
I couldn’t agree more, always hated hardcore dancing lol go fight if you want to fight in a cage and be real about it
I am 40yo polish black metaller AND hardcore fan (now). Back in the days, we, orthodox black metallers appriciated hardcorers, and there was, especially on black/deathcore events some massive, bloody and brutal clashes of skinhead style moshing black metallers and hardcore dancers. Funny is, couple of times apart, that most of the times right after a gig we just got party all together. And yes, those guys that times were badasses
one of the first hardcore shows i went to was throwdown. i learned real quick about crowd killing, hardcore dancing, two stepping, stage diving, and straight edge hardcore.
I grew up listening to metal and have been to dozens of metal shows at this stage. Always loved moshing. Only got into hardcore a couple years ago and was always super intimidated by the dancing, but once my fav songs come on and especially if i have a few pints in me, jaysus it comes out. You get way more energy out doing hardcore dancing, but it has no place at metal shows imo. I went to go see my fav hc band Jesus Piece in Glasgow there the other night and my sober brain the next day was cringing at the windmills i was throwing hahaha.
I love moshing , i don't love hardcore dancing when i don't know the band/am sober but dammit, hc dancing when I'm on it is something else
Another observation is that the metalheads always give me a hug afterwards and its all wonderful comradery. HC kids are too hard to even have that. No smiling at hc shows, and I even went up to the Jesus Piece afterwards and drunkenly confessed my love for their music and I could tell they weren't super used to people fangirling... weird toxic shit exists in hc that doesn't in metal.
I'm seeing Jesus Piece again next November in Dublin supporting Sepultura, Obituary (have seen them both before) and Jinjer. Wondering what the story will be like at that...
I too was a metalhead and went to almost all moshing shows from '96-05 including small local punk shows and most of the windmill guys were skinheads so we targeted them or at least kept put eyes on them but you are 1000% right about the moshing vibe and i had to explain to my mom in my early years when i was 13/14 and shed ask about wounds but I'd tell her how there was unspoken rules in the mosh pit like you dont hit people clearly not trying to mosh, if someone falls you help them up or you help protect them from getting trampled while they get up, if chicks are in the pit or were crowd surfing we treated them as if they were our baby sister and made sure dudes weren't groping them all over. And when someone did get significantly hurt you helped them out of the pit. My fave pit of all time was Pantera then some local deathmetal bands. Pantera was great cuz depending on the song it was a basic pit, a huge circle pit or a good amount of windmill throwing. Personally, when I guy would windmill too close to me I'd push him away, if he kept it up I'd make it clear to stay away, if I got hit after that it would be on, lol.
You've kind of summed up my experience at shows back in the mid 2000s/early 2010s. There was a lot of comradery between metalheads, whether it was a local show or if I went out of town to see bigger bands at a big venue. If someone fell, they immediately got picked back up. Dads bringing their kids to shows and everyone watching out to make sure the kids don't get hurt. Stuff like that. People looked like they were actually having fun.
On the other hand, most of the hardcore/metalcore kids in my local scene were "tough guys" that didn't smile and were specifically there to take out their frustration in a place where they knew they would face little to no repercussions, as well as get attention. Lots of crowd killing. One of them would even stand at the edge of the pit with a razorblade and cut any moshers that came within reach during strictly metal sets. These same guys are why the small venues in my area stopped doing shows and the local scene subsequently died. Property would get destroyed at every show, including the fucking landscaping and shit outside the venue.
The metal guy at a hardcore show is spot on. I saw this all the time going to hardcore shows in the mid 2000's. Also correct that pits are completely different depending on genre of music. No elbows in the Punk pit.
I always get a chuckle when the dance pit is forming and there's the guy standing in the middle holding a beer without a clue of what's happening. RIP
Growing up I went to several shows that would have both types of pits separated by some of the crowd or by venue layout in general. I think both should be able to coincide at the same show during the same bands even (if venue size allows for it)
I'll choose to be a "lame metal guy" if that puts me in the scene that actually cares about the music more than posturing as a badass and being needlessly violent and reckless
Absolutely 🤘🏻💯
if you are going out your way stopping people from having fun because you’re too cool to dance, then it is you who is worried more about posturing as a badass and not the caring for music and culture.
See that’s the thing though. I am a metal head. But I have recently started drifting into the hardcore scene. I partake in both hardcore type ninja pits and metal push pits. I’m not trying to hit anyone when I’m fighting the invisible ninjas. I don’t do it near the edge of the pit and I don’t do it during a push pit. It’s literally just dancing. Now… there are some dick heads who will crowd kill and that shit is definitely wack.
Hardcore scene is the most toxic, shallow and cliquey community I was ever apart of. I love the music and don’t mind the hardcore dancing but I definitely interacted with a lot of people who would brag about intentionally crowdkilling defenseless people. So pathetic to be an adult and still act this way.
At this point, Finn needs a series called "Papa Finn" where he gives life advice to like minded people like us, the viewers
long time listener, first time caller, spot on fellas, up here in Alberta we are fairly aware. But every now and then some people need to learn the hard way. keep up doing the lords work
I’ve always taken the stance that if you’re in the pit or on the edge of the pit you kind of sign up to potentially get hit. There are lots of people, a lot of times it’s dark, sometimes you can’t really see who is young, old, guy, girl etc. You’ve came to their scene. Accept the risk or find somewhere else to stand.
No one can own music you jock music fascist
There's a lot of newcomers to the scene...when I was a kid in the early 2000s, I didn't know any better. Luckily nobody punched me in the face...also, when there are multiple bands, some might not be there for hardcore shows
Yeah I was at a lot of those shows in South Florida in the 90s. Being more metal in my preferential leaning, I wasn't usually the one to start fights, I understood Mosh pit culture. Somebody pushed things too far though I'd finish it. Even if it involved taking a chair upside someone's more often than not skin head
🤘😜👍
Its fun to see doom metal and grindcore tour together because when i in the front saw the grindcore band walk out with their shorts/short hair and Nikes, i could feel the crowd around me and accepted my fate
I can't wait to see Tank on your channel again soon. You guys are my favorite and top dogs in the youtube community and my go to guys in this type of music with all related topics etc. Seriously your channel and Tank's channel are the best. Much love and mad respect. Thumbs UP all the time and shared. A++++++ : ))
I was near the front row of a Chicago House of Blues Slipknot show around 99-2000. For a minute or 2, it was not fun. I basically had to mentally leave the show because I was getting crushed, & just concentrate on being able to breathe. I knew to put my hands in a triangle shape in front of me to leave room for my lungs, but I could hear a female voice somewhere behind me through my ear plugs, saying she couldn't breathe. I'm sure there were more.
House of blues still lets in way too many people in Chicago. Last two times I was there it was packed to the gills. I usually don’t get claustrophobic at all, but damn, that’s an awful venue for that (but also beautiful and the sound system is great)
@@future_elevator_musicCall the fire marshall next time. They will put a stop to that REAL quick.
At my local venue you usually always have those hybrid pits: front is moshing, back is swinging and everyone is happy
Hardcore sucks. I mean, if it slams it slams but basically a fan base made out of chachi gas cap sniffers who just can't bring themselves to butfu** one another and get it over with.
I'll take a chill deathmetal scrub with a killer N64 collection over these soon to be Jordan Peterson cultists anyday.
I remember going to the Pipeline in Jersey, It had to be '99? and Orange 9mm opened for E-Town Concrete. The singer from Orange 9mm at one point stopped the show and yelled at the crowd, something like, 'What is this Kung-Fu Shit?' I thought it was hilarious, myself, being more of a metal guy than Hardcore, but I had a lot of HC friends at the time.
Im going to start a Shattered Realm Broken Ties Spoken Lies band, and we're only going to play house shows that promote extreme moshing
I took my radio rock friend to a hardcore show in NYC and lost him about 4 minutes in to the first song of the headliner and when we found each other again, we were both shirtless (ripped off by the pit) and he'd lost his glasses. Still one of the best shows I've ever attended.
That happened to me at a club in Toronto. My shirt got torn off within like 10 mins of me being there - TL;DR - some drunk guy deflected off of me, grabbed my shirt as he fell into the middle of a group of badasses, tearing my shirt almost clean off as he fell into meathead bros and spilled all their beers. He proceeded to receive a beat down but didn't let go of my shirt, so I finished the rip and let him have the rag. Cops were involved, luckily my friend let me borrow his snakeskin vest as we left lol. Guy that got a beat down was in the back of a cruiser.
I saw Hatebreed live when I was 20, one of my favourite bands . We don’t get a lot of hardcore/metalcore lives in Greece so I cherish every time I attend one.
First song of their set and I get punched on my nose by a “hardcore dancer” throwing his hands around…
Almost ruined the experience for me. Thank God it didn’t break but it hurt like hell and I spent most of the live further back jumping up n down …
Look , I’ve been to extreme walls of death like Slayer and it felt safer. Hardcore dancing or throwing your hands around without looking is stupid and dangerous.
And then you get a try hard kid wanting to “Hardcore Dance” at rave where everyone is just shuffling to house music.
Sounds absurd but i encountered this just a few months ago
I'm wearing the tour shirt rn from that show. Bodysnatcher defiantly surprised some we came as romans fans who had no idea. So glad I got to see Emmure on that tour.
As a female lover of rock shows..my friend and I use to love standing around the mosh pit to watch and enjoy the music but you would have these morons who would try to push you into it and we would push them back then curse them out. I was at another show where I seen a boy get his wrist broken and had the bone sticking through his skin…😮frigging crazy! I just stood back.
I haven’t been to a rock show in forever but I wouldn’t get that close to a mosh pit…I’ll enjoy it at a distance.
I feel you I'm a big guy and they always try that shit with me😂
Yeah as a girl I have to be really careful in the pit because some men get so hostile.
Definately a large difference depending on the band too. Bands with larger female followings tend to have good pits and good self policing.
I stand to the side these days. Way too old for that shit.
I was involved in the scene in the early 2010's, got out of it by ~2015, then got back into it ~2019 and still go to shows (I'm 31, so I'm getting up there in hardcore years lol). Right now is the best the scene has ever been imho, and it's *solely* because of that lack of the "crews" and the increased amount of diversity (more mixed race, more women, queer people, not just a bunch of straight white dudes frustrated they got fired from their autozone job or that their girlfriend cheated on them).
The crews really made me stop going to shows for a while because you literally couldn't throw down without potentially getting jumped by them. I remember the last show I went to for quite some time was The Acacia Strain in 2015 right after they released Coma Witch and man, the crews ruined the pit. You couldn't throw down without some crew kid trying to start a fight with you, and if you were smart you'd know that fighting that kid would result in 10 of his friends jumping you. So you just didn't mosh, and wow- going to The Acacia Strain and not throwing down is no fun.
Fact is, _most_ of the kids/"adults" in these crews couldn't fight if it was 1 v 1. That's why they rolled 10 deep.
Crews are still pretty common out my way. Shit’s always been whack. Mainly why I go to new age Deathcore or Reggae shows now lol. Better vibes
When I went to see ADTR and NFG in 11th grade, the NFG side band, “The International Superheros of Hardcore” played.
Man I got hit so hard it still hurts every time I sneeze 😂😂
That seatbelt song still goes hard af tho 😅
Hardcore operates in numbers. Your not fighting a hardcore person. Your fighting five.
And the feds thought ICP made a gang outta their fandom...
Some things doesn't apply to the situation in my country.
I remember being a 17 years old kid that often went to "underground rock festivals", we used to traditional mosh to punk, hardcore and nu metal bands. Then, post hardcore and metalcore started to rise up, and we still mosh to those bands, untill they all started to hardcore dance. So, that was the same music I still loved but the way the crowd enjoyed changed. I wasn't a newbie in the scene, but still couldn't participate in the "dance floor" because I either fight or push and bump into other dudes. So, that ruined it for me, so I migrate to house, techno and trance events for a couple of years.
Luckily, hardcore dancing is not a thing in here anymore.
I don't know how you tolerate crowd killing over there without straight punching down those dudes. Every crowd killing video I've seen shows only 4 dudes enjoy themselves getting too close to the rest of the crowd forming a big circle and unsuccessfully trying to avoid getting hit. "Lot of fun".
I always had the opposite experience at shows back in the day. The people who did the "hardcore" arm flailing were pretty much always 100lb skinny rich kids who wore jeans tighter than their girlfriend did and had the scene girl hair... And whenever there was a negative interaction they would get absolutely sidewalk SLAMMED by metalheads and start crying every single time. Maybe it's just a regional experience, but there were very few big or burly hardcore fans that could hold their own here. It was bewildering to hear you say they could regularly beat up metalheads based on my own experience.
As a former punker, we called them the fighting the invisible ninja dudes
I've been in some vicious pits over the years. Local club where Testament and Megadeth played in their early days, but the best pit ever for me was Metallica's Damaged Justice Tour. Absolutely a hurricane of intensity unleashed. An ocean of aggression. I died twice.
Hardcore culture just seems kinda awful. Moshing is rough but it's like communal and positive. You pick people up to make sure they don't get hurt. Will you get bruised? Absolutely. Will you get a broken nose or teeth knocked out? Maybe, but probably not intentionally.
One thing that keeps getting glossed over in these discussions is that the deliberate targeting of innocent bystanders is an ACTUAL CRIME. They need to be charged.
Ok Karen
@terminaldeity it's just true though
The Cleveland references will always keep me coming back to your videos.
This reminds me of a show I went to in Detroit where the headliner was D.R.I. (80s crossover/thrash) and the big act before them was Cold As Life (90s Detroit HXC) and seeing the major split of the crowd, seeing the meshing of the scenes was actually interesting how both reacted to both acts. Legendary night to be had